A Day in the Strife | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is the only series that you get to watch for the first time twice. You know what we're going to be doing for a second time, but for the first time all over again. What's that? Searching for the sci-fi messages that we find contained within the series. We used to call them Star Trek messages, but we grew up. We matured. We got older. We realized Star Trek doesn't have the corner on messages, and we are looking for those ones maybe we missed the first time around, ones that we understand in a new way, maybe ones from the great maker himself that could be contained within this. Now, that being said, this is our second watch. So this is a spoiler warning for anyone out there who has not watched this show before.

[1:51] Jeff and I are allowed, can and will probably quite a bit, mention or reference anything from any point in the timeline from anywhere in canon, outside of canon, whatever. Everything is fair game for us this time around. So if you haven't watched the show for the first time, please stop the show right now. We're begging you, stop the show. We have a whole unspoiled version of this show with Babylon five for the first time. Go join us there. And then when you've gotten through the show, trust us, it's better that way. Catch up and then we'll meet you back here. This week, Brent, we're going to have spoilers abound as we watch the episode a day in the strife. What do you remember about your first time viewing experience with this one? Not a dang thing. Well, there you go.

[2:38] Not a thing. Yeah. How about you? I remember two things. Yeah. Two things? Well, I remember overall not caring for the episode. Just being like, oh, I don't think I care for that very much. And then it's got that probe with all the questions thing. And I think this really ramped up my really, really strong feelings about Dr. Franklin. When I think of this episode, I have an image of Jakar. I know there's some Narn thing. In fact, I think this is the episode Talon comes back. We get his name in this one okay but uh but yeah i just i i just have an image of dr franklin in my mind when i think about this one interesting i i will tell you um yeah i don't i don't remember what this is uh because you could throw dan's trap and be like yeah that's early season three, which means i liked it right yeah because it's season three like i like season three season three is pretty much bangers all the way through almost so i probably liked it that's that's all i can tell you but i i don't even i just don't remember what it's about yeah at least that was until.

[3:45] I listened to our first episode and first watch changed no i was like oh oh yeah that's what happened oh yeah that's where we do so i know how we actually felt about it the first time around would you like to know i'm a little nervous but yeah um this one was a huge messages episode jeff i don't know if you realize that or not you stated very much at the at the top of the show we could spend an hour talking about the messages alone oh wow in this episode when i got all the way down to the end i said enjoyment wise it's like a two and a half because you did delta's i did star furies remember we were separating that back in the day um i said but because of the messages and how very b5 they were this was like like a three four five star fury okay like Like it was good because of what all it did, what all it said. But I didn't know what to make of the episode ultimately.

[4:43] Like, was it an episode about gun control? Was it an episode about drug abuse? Was it an episode about not being burned out, not meddling in foreign affairs? And I just listed like all of these different topics that the show could have been about. And it wasn't about any of those things, but it was about all of those things all at the same time. Okay. That's that, which I feel like there's a couple of episodes like that. Right. Yeah. It's just, did we have like a crusade episode? Surely it's not. This is the only episode in Babylon five that does that or including crusade. Like, it's just this show, just this episode just didn't know what it wanted to be. And it's just so interesting because you're saying all this. I don't like you say a drug that got that means nothing to me at all. It's yeah, I I don't entire like even after listening and kind of hearing the recap and everything. There's a few. I'm like, OK, I see where that connects. I see where that connects. But I said this was a good episode. Nothing blew me away. I liked it, but I didn't know why. I liked it, but I didn't love it. That's where I was on this episode. You, my friend, however, said you actually liked it. And you said that the whole point of this episode was just to show you a day in the life on Babylon five.

[5:57] And life on babylon five sucks all right that was your idea that's a good justice this episode sucks but it's supposed to because it's telling you about a day in the life no no no no the episode is fine because living on babylon five sucks yeah like the episode was okay it's fine um you said there were two key things that mattered in this episode one jakar unifying the resistance under him right because this is an episode where they send uh narn well the centauri try to send a new narn ambassador to babylon five oh yeah just dude who shows up right yeah far i think was his name right i think that's where talon comes back into the whole mix but you also said because the other piece of this the bigger other piece of this was franklin this is the episode jeff unless i'm unless i misunderstood something this is the episode where he um they're they're like at the the night club or something and he's all tired and worn out and like he goes to the bathroom shoots up and then comes back and he's like mr party yeah right and you said franklin's stem thing is gonna be a thing oh you're making a prediction you're throwing out there his stem thing's gonna be a thing to reach recognizing the seed that was planted in up in season one with the quality of mercy lady all right yeah and you're like it's it's coming to fruition here so this whole stem thing is gonna it's it's gonna totally turn into a thing which jeff.

[7:22] I'm going to give you some kudos. Yeah, snap it up, baby. Snap it up. You got it, son. This turns into a major thing. They silver-plattered this storyline. I'm like, hey, is this a thing? Yeah. Although you thought that the Stem thing might actually be more of an Ivanova plotline than a Franklin plotline. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[7:43] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because she talks about sleep, right? There's a whole thing about it. Yeah, yeah. On Franklin because you said you sort of got this idea of Franklin you really solidified your idea this is actually you and I both solidified our ideas of Franklin on this one you and I were very much in lockstep on this.

[8:04] But I thought you had a wonderful phrase you said on Franklin, it's great writing of an absolutely terrible person, and great acting of an absolutely terrible person And we gave Richard Biggs some of his flowers for how he's portraying this horrendous character, at least horrendous character at this point. I think it's so important because we caught a lot of heat from people because we were hard on Franklin. But I think – and I hold this. And I know you are looking forward to season five because you have a theory about – I don't forget his name but some character in the fifth season around this. But – Oh, his official name is Sunshine.

[8:43] But no, with Franklin, we're supposed to think this way about him. And I think that the writing and the incredible acting, that's why we felt that way. Yeah. And looking through the lens of him with Garibaldi's tennis daughter and stuff, Uncle – Uncle – Yeah. Uncle Steve. Yeah. Uncle Steve. How can you not love this guy? He's great. No, he was not. But here's the thing. Like –, In order for a roller coaster to have fun going down, it first has to chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, right? In order for the roller coaster to actually go up the hill, it has to go down the hill first, right? This is something that you and I talk about of why you and I were so committed during our first watch to being brutally honest about where we were in that moment and not placating to the audience. And I promise you, I'm not going to point fingers. I'm not going to name names. There are other reactors and people out there watching the show for the first time who are just heaping loads and loads of love and love and love, and all they're trying to do is placate y'all out there. That's all they're trying to do. They're not trying to piss anybody off. And you and I were very committed to being and allowing the journey to unfold. And where you and I wound up in Sleeping in Light, which I think we would all agree was – I don't know if you all out there expected what happened. I did not – I thought something would happen. I didn't know that it would go to the place that it went when you and I watched that episode.

[10:11] But that conclusion with our journey jeff through the show would not have meant as much if we hadn't had the avalon if we hadn't had the first half of season two if we hadn't had those low points right all of that said we're not going to get uncle stephen in season five sleeping in light without this it's not going to mean as much without this you know so you're i I think you're absolutely right. Absolutely right. We discussed quite a bit if Franklin could potentially actually legitimately get fired. Like we had a big discussion on that. We were hard on this episode because I'm like, just get it. Yeah.

[10:56] We also agreed that the STEM addiction would be a major thing forward. Again, your quote here, it's going to come back and it's going to come back big. Yeah. Like you had that. This is also the episode that had the probe in it. Yeah, okay. You were talking about that, the probe that comes back. You wondered if it would matter at all. I made the glorious prediction. Listen, you knocked one out of the park. Here comes Brent's triad at stepping up to the plate. This is why a 333 is an incredible batting average right here. Right, right. I thought this one might turn into season three's Geometry of Shadows. Oh, okay. While right now it doesn't really make any sense and it seems like it's going over our head, by the time we get to the end of the season, this is all going to play out and we're going to understand what it means. You pushed back and said, I'm going to make a bet. We never see hide nor hair of this thing again. That's two for two. Two for Jeff. Not for Brent.

[11:57] Uh Londo I said took 10 steps into villainy this is the first time I wanted to punch him in the face wow in this one this is the first time I think I truly hated Londo like you you kind of watched his descent and you felt bad like even in in you know season two like with the dark hair and the fangs no come on or whatever we like you still kind of feel bad for him although but this was like nah dude i'm done with you right um the other thing and and i'll i'll finish up on this uh this is an episode where we lose veer this is the episode where londo sends veer away yeah right he got i think he is he goes to become the minbar ambassador goes to the centauri mission on minbar we were very sad that we were losing veer because we didn't know we didn't know if veer was coming back or not it felt like a right if this is me writing you off yeah with occasional guest spot, opportunities right right um you had an idea though that veer all right here's your here's your other one you ready oh my god is jeff gonna step up to the plate and go three for three let's find out you said that he's gonna go to minbar and he's gonna wind up hooking up with that telepath kid from season one from legacies right and he might even hook up with the rangers and have a direct line to Sinclair.

[13:23] Well, you might have foul tipped that one off. You followed it up with this, Jeff. You believed in your core that Veer was going to be a big part of the Narn resistance. Oh, wow. Okay. That's cool. I'm glad that I. Abraham O. Lincone. Can anyone. Right. Can we say that there's that needs to be like a whole comic book series or something in and of itself. There's there's a veers work as Abraham O. Lincone. They basically wrote a whole book about his work in the, in the Drock times of, they need the books about that. Like he was moving some stuff. I wonder what it, I wonder what it takes to like write effectively fan fiction, but like get it published as like, like send it and go, Hey, can, can this, will you guys buy the story and make it a thing? You have all the people out there who buy stories. I feel like JMS is probably not on the list at all.

[14:21] Well, let's be clear. JMS wouldn't buy the story. It'd have to be the publishing house that would buy the story. It's just a matter of JMS says, yeah, the story is canon. Let's go with it. Uh, Jeff, last time, last week, we gave ourselves a little homework that we have yet to fulfill. We were supposed to watch three amigos. Yeah. We have not done that yet. Yeah. We also did it this week. Really? Yes. Yes. It's just layering on top of us. With a movie you have not seen. Oh, is this the- And we have to do this one. Down Periscope? No. Okay. Although we have to do that one too. I have that on my – I'm sitting here waiting. But what's the other one?

[15:02] Monster Squad. So, yeah. So I haven't – I have seen it, but it has been decades. Yeah. Decades. Yeah, yeah. And that's solely because of Stephen Mock. I think he might be the guy who plays Nafar. But he is the dad in Monster Squad. And Wolfman's got nards and all that. So we were supposed to do it. We never did. We need to get to it. This seems like the perfect season to watch a B-rated monster movie. Totally. Absolutely. Anyway, those are some of the things that we said the first time around. Jeff, I know you scoured the interwebs. You listened to the great maker himself. Maybe you saw some footage from various places. Did you get anything good drummed up about this episode? I did. Not a lot, but there is definitely some stuff.

[15:53] I think i think that we might have questioned during our first watch possibly but he clarified that talon is the same narn that sheridan was locked up with and all alone in the night, he noted that we see uh someone asked him why we've never seen a worker cast minbari, and he's like you've seen plenty of them they've been all around but they tend to fade into the background you can generally tell their worker cast because they don't have stylized bone carvings like the other casts do interesting all right hang on i don't know i got money for that kind of crap man right did do we know and this might be a question for our council chambers jeff um.

[16:38] Has JMS ever given us like a breakdown of the population of Mimbar? Like what percentage of the population is religious caste? What percentage is warrior caste? I don't think so. What percentage is worker class? And I say that just knowing that the Great Council is made up evenly three parts of each. You would assume society is made up evenly of three parts each. But later, Dillon heavily weights it towards worker class, which actually might lend that there's a whole lot more worker class than there are religious or warrior, probably by a large order. That would be – That makes sense. That's an interesting con question for JMS. It is. Yeah. What does it look like? Yeah. Yeah. Because it wouldn't shock me at all if you sat back and you said, yeah, less than 10% of the population is religious caste. Another 10% is warrior, and the other 80% is all worker class. Right. Yeah.

[17:34] You mentioned Veer heading off to Minbar, and we were upset and worried about him. We were right to be worried. Yeah. Stephen first landed a gig on a sitcom. I think it was called Misery Loves Company. Never heard of it. Yeah, me either. So the end of the story, right, is that he stayed on Babylon 5. Right. We know he stayed – yeah, which means the show must not have worked out. Yeah, for very long. I think he was on, I don't know, maybe half a season or something like that. But he didn't want to leave Babylon 5. And when he brought the news to Straczynski, that's kind of what he shared. He's like, look, I got this gig. It's full time. I got to do this, but I don't want to leave. So they reworked his contract, uh, in a way that kind of reduced, you know, his, his, his obligation, but still brought him back. And they came up with this whole storyline around the diplomatic mission just to be like, yeah, you're gone. And when it makes sense to bring you back, we'll, we'll bring you back.

[18:28] Well, here's to stuff not working out. Right? Hey, I think it worked out great. Right? The probe storyline. Yeah. The probe storyline actually does mean something. No, it doesn't. Just not in the scope of canon of Babylon 5. Okay. So there was a series of closed door hearings in the House Sciences Committee in 1968 here in these United States. Okay. about how to respond if we encountered extraterrestrials.

[18:55] After a lot of very vociferous, vehement arguments and discussions, they concluded that first contact would most likely be from a probe and that we would not respond because it could be a berserker or a threat of some kind. Interesting. So we really just wanted to.

[19:18] Play that out. Last thing I've got on this one I think is fascinating. So part of the story in the episode is negotiations between the station and the Pilots Association. In a life-imitating art moment, it was during the filming of this episode that the union came knocking and started a labor action with the show. It's a long story of good faith negotiations and sacrifices by both JMS and John Flynn. But they ended up with a thing still in use today in labor negotiations that's called the Babylon contract.

[19:57] Okay. Yeah. Basically, they were using a lot of people on crew and things like that that were non-union. Okay. And the union was like, we need you. And there's some verbiage in –, within it's probably how they were saving money was well by not union folk what it came down to was the the union uh you know like the moment that activated kind of a union thing was i think it was a million dollars a million dollar budget okay their budget was like 900 and some odd thousand it was just underneath and so basically they were like how do we bump it just enough to get them in, but not actually spend a whole lot of extra money. And that's where JMS and Flynn actually took money out of their pockets to, uh, to say, oh, we can do this and move it over here. I don't know all the specifics of how they moved it around, but it developed this concept called the Babylon contract that lets shows under a million dollars. Yeah. Still fly in and get union representation. I assume that's a million dollars an episode. I think so, yeah. I would – I mean here's the thing.

[21:03] 22 episodes, they're taking – they're making up the shortfall from their two personal cuts of it. That could be a lot of money by the end of the day. Good on them. It's huge. For getting that to their place. I would love to know – right now is not the time. I would love to know what the terms of the Babylon contract are. I know. I'm very curious. Like for Hollywood. Yeah. I'd really be curious to know what those are. It was nice too because JMS talked about – he's like, yeah, they weren't union. And that was fine because we actually treated them great. We gave them medical and dental coverage out of other parts of the budget. Like they were still – he's like taking care of the people that worked on the show was really important to him. And so when people hear labor action or union things like, oh my gosh, they must have been horrible. And no, there's actually, there's actually some people that are just good people and take care of their workers, but being plugged into the union, especially down in Hollywood, the various guilds and associations there opens up, I mean, so many protections and benefits and things that are so critical for people. Well, a lot of times you get, you get benefits through the union. Oh, exactly. Yeah. I have a lot of friends in the voice acting world and that's their medical insurance is through SAG. That's where they get it. Yeah. I know I don't use it because it's not a benefit to me because what I have is better otherwise. But part of the union I'm in here, we offer medical insurance and stuff for our folks. Yeah. So.

[22:32] It's good. But I thought it was a really cool story. There you go. For this. So what do you say after that little dive into real life that we get back into the reason we're here? Let's watch this episode. I say let's. Do that. I'm excited to watch this with all of you here who have joined us. If you're here for the first time, welcome. Every episode is somebody's first, and we're really excited that you've chosen this one to join us. What's going to happen from here is Brent and I are going to pull the episode up. We're going to watch it right here, right now. We're going to talk about it while it's happening. We might pause and dive into some messages, conversations, or just it's going to happen all in real time. If you've joined us on YouTube, what you're going to see is the edited version of that, like a reaction video that'll kind of skip through the episode itself and then get to the stuff afterwards. If you want the full and the unedited version of that, you can get that over at our Patreon page. That's patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to the audio podcasting version of this, don't worry. We are not leaving you out. You will catch the audio because honestly, Jeff and I have a lot to say during the episode itself we're not going to rehash that all the way at the end so we'll make sure that you guys are with that as well and of course you're going to get the conversation that we'll have on the other side so with that jeff let's watch an episode it's time let's do it accessing file, captain's meeting with the transport association now to work it out i'm sure it won't be a problem.

[23:59] So this is the union thing they're talking about We have some order here, please.

[24:06] Thank you. I like a dude in a front wearing a Pokemon hat. I realize it's going to take longer now to get your material through customs. We project delays of no more than 10 to 15 percent. That's huge. Yeah, that's a lot of time. That's not. They want to control all the weapons so they can push us around, intimidate us. There's always that guy. Always that guy. You're a big man, don't they, Sheridan? Okay, question. the two minbari guys over this dude's shoulder worker cast in the background maybe they look their their head bones look a little spiky what is not ornamented whatever yeah, You're pretty brave sitting up there with armed guards on either side. It's what we got. I love sharing right here. Why don't you come down here and try this crap? That'll be enough.

[24:55] You know, honestly, those PPGs look so tiny in their hands. You got the gun. There's no caps in it, but... All I've got is what I've got.

[25:09] Adjourn. I really like the way he responded to that. Yeah like he took the bait but he didn't swallow the respect talk about it so it's reckless what he did like i totally like that could have gone that could have gone sideways real yeah real fast yeah but like that that like i said that guy is an all everything that hey we have this really rough money thing it's going to cost you i mean it's going to suck like it's going to take more time and cost some extra money really no there's this wild way out there violent thing and i'm going to be loud about it and then because of mob mentality when i'm loud people start to glom on and then it blows up into this whole thing it wasn't i feel like sheridan saw he knew that saw the direction was going and it's just like there is one way to put this fire out, and that's to get right in front of it put a barrier stop it right in its tracks, huge risk but i think it was the right call didn't um captain gideon do something like this in crusade in that episode where darina um like was trying to get him into a fight or he he was trying to get into a fight for her yes wasn't something similar to that i remember that that was a good episode that could have been such a good show it really could have been that was a good show there's some really good discussions on reddit about it and everybody who everybody who finally is like okay i'll watch it they're like oh my god.

[26:32] Yeah, it was pretty obvious, actually. All right. So to be fair, this is the energy cap. Mm-hmm. By the way, shout out to Wash. Yeah, right. I've just arrived and wanted to check in with you. That's Stephen. That's the father from Monster Squad. Okay. It is. Okay. So I'm Sheridan. I'm at work. What are you doing today at work? I'm doing a labor dispute thing. Cool. Hey, I need to talk to Sheridan. Can I just walk into the middle of this labor dispute and interrupt him? Like, who does this guy think he is? I think he's tied to the Centauri and thinks he can do. Oh, he's got that sort of thing. So I'm surprised we didn't have any – like we didn't mention it at all. But discussions of what it is to be a collaborator. We had a lot of that with Deep Space Nine, with Kira and the Bajorans and the Cardassians. Here's this guy who is effectively a collaborator with an occupying force.

[27:30] We didn't mention it at all. Really? That's surprising. I know, right? I feel like we talk about it at some point. Yeah. But it also might be, I might have been on Stargate if I'm on. I don't remember. We've had the conversation. I know we have, but yeah, you're probably right. It's probably more. Yeah, we, was it in this episode? I remember at some point in here, we started a Marcus watch because we're like, we never saw, we never see him. And let's just like start keeping track of the times we see him. Well, because we didn't know if they're going to care for him, right? Exactly. Exactly. I don't know if that was later or if that was now. I forget. Is for the welfare of all of my people. He has a gentle face. Is causing great problems for the Centauri. Like. For every one of them we. I want to like him. They kill 500 of us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Later on, I find out that the comet is a major Brikiri death symbol. Isn't Day of the Dead.

[28:24] Because a comet is coming by? Like they time it with a comet? Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I love that. You can take an inferior defensive force and turn it into an offensive force capable of taking on a better equipped enemy. I feel like that's a key line. Yeah, I think so too. I'm piecing together like what happens in the future and trying to think like. I think really that's what happens in the big battle against the Shadows and the Vorlons is they're small, right? And you got the Behemoth, Shadows, Behemoth, Vorlon. And they do what they need to do with the first ones or whatever. In that Battle of Proxima 3, it's... Or no, it's not... It's the place where Sheridan goes to die. Or to stop. If I think about it, I'll come back. But that battle is doing exactly that. Surviving streets are quite empty, Ambassador. The work farms... You can hear the hurt and Nafar and Londo's just... Are all operating. Digging. At capacity?

[29:26] Nothing personal. It's just the times. Yeah. Good on Veer.

[29:33] Yeah, we talked a lot about that. He has the hood spot to be able to say stuff like that. Last week we said be a Lanier. This week it's be a Veer. Be a Veer. Yeah. And, I mean, we know the end of Veer's story, right? Yeah. Like, this is an interesting spot. You know, he takes two steps forward and sometimes three steps back, but he's sometimes three steps forward and one step back. But this is a situation where he's not the little guy playing the video game from the first episode. It's a big step, big part of his journey. It's pretty complex, sir. At least two, three hours. You know what's interesting to me is, not interesting, but knowing that this probe thing matters nada. It does nothing. I find myself zoning out during those scenes. so let me challenge you with this yeah because we just watched a bomb plot that meant nothing yeah but what we got out of it was some cool sheridan garibaldi moments sure right some character stuff in there yeah we've got some good corwin stuff right there we're gonna get a lot of good corwin stuff i think in this yeah but we get a lot of franklin stuff as well so like oh sure probes dumb whatever but we know the franklin stuff goes somewhere so you pay attention to that right we know the londo stuff is going somewhere so we pay attention the jakar stuff If we pay attention, but the whole, the whole probe thing, like, I'm just like, I find myself just like, okay, let's go on to the next scene. I think it's two weeks in a row of just like.

[31:00] Go to the sci-fi shelf of tropes and just, oh, let's do this one. Oh, let's do this one. And I think like Stargate does that frequently, but that's, Stargate's an episode of the week. Yeah. That makes sense to do. But again, I think in this case, it's JMS has an intended goal, a development goal in this episode, mostly character driven, and he just needs a paint by numbers construct to make it happen. Yeah, right. That makes sense. But I would like to know why this particular favor. Does delin know that allowing veer to go away is effectively taking ronda's moral compass away probably at least has an inkling thank you this is the delin i miss yeah this is the delin that we lose when she becomes and we keep saying this jeff and i hope we're going to be wrong when we do the second watch i know but when she just sort of becomes the side chick when she's like yeah she knows more than what's going on here so okay now tell me the truth like this is the delin that it oh and she's so subtle and powerful and how she does it like it's great right and i'm just gonna put this out there just because i feel like side chick carries a lot with it i'll just say first lady right like she just becomes the first lady she's over here doing goodwill missions and just happens to be along she's she's the she's the girl on the side man like.

[32:23] Sheridan's first mission his first love is the command he's you know I'm in love with my ship with my station with my interstellar alliance right I'm married to the service we never really talked Londo, no I suppose not.

[32:42] They have a couple of these just like moments like this throughout the series that are always interesting. They're basically all her scene, him fall. Well, you know, we fall into patterns easy. You know, tendencies become happy. You know, we talked a bit about, and I just want to say this as we go into the scene. Um the conversation that garibaldi has with franklin here is one that only somebody who has dealt with addiction can have when they see somebody else in the midst of their addiction, what strikes me is paralleling this and i want to watch this specifically him and the conversation that lockley had with him when he fell off the wagon uh later on in the show i feel like he probably responds a lot like franklin does even worse but when you're in that spot it's You recognize, you know that's true of yourself. Yeah. You're right. I've never met a bottle I didn't like. Michael. That's why I can't go. I don't have a problem, okay? But if it makes you happy, I'll cut back on the stems. They would say, here is a man who will live to be 150.

[33:50] How do you not love Talon after that? Like, just what a cool guy. Right? Well, and there's, you know, you talked earlier about those moments.

[34:00] That's it. That's another one. What does it matter where the food comes from? It keeps our people alive. I just want to take a moment, Jeff. You and I gushed over this so much during our first watch, but I'm going to continue to gush. All due respect to Michael Westmore, the makeup artist over it. Star Trek, I don't think he ever came as close to nailing something as much as he did the makeup specifically for the Narn. Yeah. Or whomever, whoever did the makeup on Babylon five, the way that, that these prosthetic pieces are built that still allow the actor to emote through their facial expressions is phenomenal. Yeah. Like it does not look like makeup. I mean, look at Jakar right here where you paused it. Like, there's so much going on right here. Right. Hey, there's the lines in his nose and the wrinkles here, and you see his face. And, I mean, it's really a thing of beauty. The only thing that I think is maybe just a little is the sheen on his head where you see the light from the studio. Hey. Right there. I feel like a scene by that statement, sir. I was going to say, we can see the light in your studio. You, in fact, have a circle light. We can tell or no you have the box lights yeah we can see the two box lights right there in your head and uh you're welcome to everybody out there who now cannot unsee those in jeff's head.

[35:30] It's true that's why i wear a hat recover from our wounds and lull the centauri into a sense of false security.

[35:42] Is he right dude i mean that's the question right it's an approach it's a way to do it right does it work i don't know that it's ever worked does jakar's way work i don't think so i mean did think about it anything that jakar did with his resistance did it in any one little bit of an iota get the centauri off narn no did it free narn at all what freed narn was jakar and londo coming together on centauri prime and deciding to kill the emperor.

[36:19] What I love about this, though, is you have two different viewpoints, two different ways of going about it. Look, we can mount a resistance now. We can fight. We can do all this sort of stuff. Or we can bide our time, let things be real crappy for a really long time, but we'll lull them into a false sense of security, and then we can attack. These are two competing ideas, two legitimate ideas. which way is the best way to go? Which way is the right way to go? That's the conversation. That's the debate. I love Jakar's question here. Okay, how? Yeah. Tell me how. Let's have the debate. Let's talk about it. It doesn't have to be my way or the highway. Let's talk about it. I'm far from an expert on World War II. And I know there are people in the council chambers, Ron, who brought this up, being one of them who can help keep me on track. But like Ron makes the comment, kind of worked for chamberlain right and yeah like the uk maintained itself as a presence in the war partly because of this but also.

[37:29] London was rubble right and i mean it's when i think about it had the u.s not entered the war i don't know that that strategy would have worked like it becomes a war of attrition essentially and I don't know that they had pockets deep enough to keep it, to keep it going. I don't know. I could be wrong, but I think like when I think about Nafar, I think about Chamberlain, I think about the idea of like, there's the, there's that line, there's like conciliation and then there's collaboration. And that line gets skewed after the fact, right? Like after everything's done, it's easy to like blur those lines. But I think that taking like a conciliatory approach to, The danger in that is what Jakar sees with Nafar is you're never going to fight back. You're just going to keep taking scraps and feed in to what they're doing. I think to have that conciliatory approach, you have to have like a very clear, at this moment we strike. Right. Sort of a thing. But I think that doesn't always happen. I also find it interesting that both Londo and Nafar are using pride as the mechanism to keep things moving. That might be worth an examination all in and of itself.

[38:48] Surrender to the Centauri. I have it on very good authority that you will not be harmed. Bullshit. Right. Who will lead our people? The Centauri will begin harassing their families back home. Some of them may even be imprisoned.

[39:07] Or tortured dude the music of everyone the score here this dude's evil give up babylon five he is not on the up and up like he seemed like he was just a moment ago my guess is yeah they've got his family they've already begun the harassment yeah and they're like you go say this and you go make this happen or this will escalate and we'll start doing this to everybody else that's always the way it happens though i kind of hate i if that's true i hate it because i just want him to be bad i want nafar to just be bad that's the thing though that's he can't if he was just bad this would be easy his way is wrong he's bad do the jakar thing but i don't think he's bad.

[39:55] Katarina brings up a good question you know i when um bester comes back on the station after talia and says oh we chopped her up fed her to the wolves whatever whatever he says i have long held the position they didn't do that at all he only said that to elicit an emotional response so that he could read the people in the room right that that's been my position jms hasn't said one way or the other very intentionally and very smartly so i think i think you've been on the side correct me if i'm wrong of no actually he did that to tell you yeah that's where you've been, Katarina says Nafar doesn't really believe any of this he's only trying to lure out Jakar does Nafar believe like is any of this actually happening is any like is Nafar lying through his teeth right now, that's an interesting idea in which case he is bad and I love it right I want the resistance for myself right, I'm quite capable of taking care of myself here.

[40:58] I want fears like no, you are not good place for you to be the pet their messenger is this the guy is that the guy in season five that does the statue thing it looks like him I feel like they use him quite a bit for stuff well I mean we we know that they reuse their extras they just put different pieces of makeup on them right but I feel like that's the guy who's all like I believe in you.

[41:28] And I wonder if it's the same Narn. Like, it could be the same actor, but is it the same Narn? Ron says no. Maybe. I'm going to go with Ron and the other people who have seen this far more times than I have. So, but still. If we live through this, somebody's going to find their automatic shower preferences reprogrammed for ice water. We loved that line in the first one. Yeah. We loved that. Yes? I heard on the grapevine you were leaving. didn't believe it but figured i better check it out question okay there is a moment later on.

[42:04] When garibaldi leaves he leaves his position isn't it jakar that comes to him to check him out not only that but when garibaldi goes missing it's jakar the only one that goes out looking for him this is i was thinking the same thing this is like a step in their but it's it's a mirror of that right now Jakar is leaving so Garibaldi is going to come check it out if I didn't know better I might think you were, Genuinely concerned. We're sitting here laughing in this really moving moment. Ron in the kitchen. It's so good. Brent, this is the special mission. Go back in time, befriend Jakar, so then he'll go looking for you.

[42:53] So good. If you guys weren't around for the first watch, you're not going to understand that. I mean, literally the entire last season and a half of the first watch. Where's Garibaldi's special mention? What was it? If you're new, welcome to the show. Really, welcome to the show. But this show is a sequel to our first show, so there are some things that carry over. We have a growing canon. For I swear, the last thing I'll do is send a report on your incompetence straight to Earthdome. You'll be disbarred so fast you'll leave skid marks as they throw your ass out of the EMA. Now you get on it and you get on it now. That's messed up, but it's also, it's pretty good.

[43:38] Like from the book of trash talk, but wow. They're going to throw, they're going to leave skid marks from your ass.

[43:54] Here's the thing. I don't know that JMS meant that. What I'm thinking it means. But he just said she's dirty. He did. By the way, folks, bidets are a thing. They really are. That's all. And you get them very inexpensively on online retailers. They're easy to install. And they will change your life. Your life. They are life-changing. Yes. To rebuild norm. Is this a scene I think it is? To feed, clothe, and protect our people. For what can be more important than their safety? It's an interesting thing. Because on the one hand, you're talking about the basic needs of life, food, clothing, shelter, water. The other hand, you're talking about the things of the heart, liberation, freedom. The price of the foundation of Maslow's hierarchy is your dignity and freedom. That's messed up. In order to achieve one, you have to sacrifice the other, but you have to do it as a society. Right. And you have to make the choice to sacrifice their basic needs in order to.

[45:16] That thing seriously looks like those little things from the movie Batteries Not Included. Did you ever see that movie? Yes. Like those little guys? See a line from Dylan here. That maintenance bot was out there just like man, I got two days to retirement just gonna chill out here on the outside oh you need me to send a message cool, council chambers is bringing it today this is great right right we cannot let you leave you are valued and you are needed here this is foolishness i'm doing this for your own good.

[46:04] Was that supposed to be a moment of comedy it was didn't do it too well and it's not funny And here's the thing I'm not going to go into, I talked about this in our first time view, our first time viewing, uh, way back, uh, I've been in labor negotiations before, and I've been in negotiations, not quite to that level, but close. Hey, it doesn't work. It doesn't help. It just stop this whole mob mentality of like, Ooh, just yell. Let's just yell and make this. It doesn't help. It doesn't. It's not funny. Stop. .

[46:46] Brent, that's a day in the strife. That is. And a day for us. Anything pop out from this one for you? This is an interesting episode on our second watch. You know what's important. You know what's not important. You know what you can just ignore. You know what to pay attention to. And I think it plays so much into it. The parts that you pay attention to in this episode, Jeff, are so good. They're so good they're so good the parts that you don't pay attention to not very good but you also could take them or leave them and the goodness far outweighs the bad to where i feel like this episode has to be elevated on my second viewing and on a future viewing because i know what i'm watching right and i know what i'm watching for all of londo's stuff with fear oh my gosh It's excellent. Jakar's whole thing. Holy crud. Excellent.

[47:46] Even some of the character moments between Sheridan and Ivanova. Yeah. Excellent. The whole thing with the Lynn and her quarters talking to Londo. Excellent. Like just so, so much. The Garibaldi Jakar stuff. Excellent. Like the Garibaldi Franklin stuff. Yeah. The Franklin like, hey, this is where we have to be for Franklin in order to get there. I'm okay with being here because I know where we go. 100%. Yes. I didn't know where we went. So yeah, man, ultimately I, I mean, we talked about so much. I've got, I do have some messages on this one. We'll save those for when we get to that part of the conversation, but man, I, I, This one gets a glow up on a second view, man. At least for me. How about you? Absolutely. And I think the Franklin thing is really standing out for me because we left that first time viewing, I mean, just vitriol, right? Just pure hatred for this guy. But like you said, we've seen what happens and we understand where he is now. And now I just see the brilliance in it. I don't feel hatred towards him. I feel sadness and compassion. I feel the same for Garibaldi Knowing where he ends up And how, you know, kind of how this goes Back for him I was shocked at the end.

[48:59] The you are valued and you are needed Jakar piece was in this episode Yeah I remember that scene so strongly We put it in like some of our opening theme music And stuff Yeah, Such a huge thing Yeah That was in this Right, I was like, oh my gosh But yeah, for me, The Franklin stuff, I mean, the Jakar stuff is huge. Londo stuff, but the Franklin stuff is top of the heap for me in this one. I thought it was fantastic. What a change, man. I know. What a change. No, I'm with you on that. I'm 100% with you on the whole piece for Franklin. His story is so interesting, and you and I know that it's just getting started, and it's really about to ramp up. And I'm very excited to be able to see this rollercoaster, for lack of a better word, again, and to know where I am on the path. You know, I'm in the middle – the very, very little bit of free time that I have, Jeff. Right.

[50:05] I like – I play some video games. Now, there are video games that I play that I don't know that I've never been through before. And in uh i i am playing through some mass effect i tried to do it live and just couldn't do it but i i've been playing through mass effect and and it's not a game i've been able to play over the last bunch of weeks just because life things have been really really busy and i don't have the space to be able to sit and really dive into it so the very little bit of time and i'm it's very very little i just go to like a good old standby for me it's zelda i play zelda i breath of the wild uh specifically i love that game and i've i've just been going through it and there's so many pieces where like i know the rhythms i know the beat i know where it is and i can enjoy the moment for where i am and i'm i'm not blindly reaching around and going and that's what it feels like right now with the whole franklin thing like i know where i am i know where we are in the story and i i'm i'm not saying franklin's story is a feel-good story but i'm enjoying where we are with all of these and honestly even londo's piece and jakar's piece and.

[51:17] You nailed the description of this episode, though, Jeff, earlier when you said it's like two weeks in a row where JMS has had some good character development things that he needs to do. We just have to give the episode some sort of a thing to wrap around. So let me pull generic storyline off the sci-fi shelf and drop it in, and we'll build everything else around it. And that's what actually makes the episode. I think it was last week, Jeff, you and I were talking about just the question of why. Right. Like why this episode in a 22 episode deal, you're trying to tell a story. You said every, every chapter is indispensable. Why? And I think our conclusion last week was it's not actually what happens in this one. It's the other stuff. Yeah. I think we're there again. Same thing. You know, but it's a lot of good stuff that really happens in this episode. Yeah. I think in the last week they took so much time with the bomb plot and made it like it was a legitimate story. This one like i remember the probe thing being a bigger deal it was probably four minutes of the episode of the episode yeah right like the longest thing of it was franklin yelling at that lady which was actually part of a different story he said she'd leave skid marks right that's, You said you had some stuff for messages. I do as well. Yeah. What do you have?

[52:38] I've got one about Franklin. I've got one about Londo, and I've got one about Jakar. Okay. Pick. Which one do you want to dive into? Let's dive into Londo's. All right, Londo. Londo is sending Veer away, and he says to Dylan or to Veer. I think he actually says to Veer himself.

[53:00] He justifies all of his actions and he, and he says, he says, Hey, I've always been alone. Yeah. Very, very leaving. He's like, I know you're alone. He's like, I've always been alone. I've always been this way. You know, we do that a lot. We justify wrong actions by this is just the way it's always been. Right. I've always been this way, you know? Um, yeah. You know, parents will say that, you know, do as I say, not as I do. Don't go this way. It's bad for you. But I'm going to be here because I'm already down this way. This is just how I roll. It's there. You know, but you shouldn't do this. Don't don't don't do this in another way, though. This is also what leads to Londo in a moment that I have extolled him for time and time again. The moment where he stands there like a man and accepts the keeper. And he saves centauri prime he saves frankly the galaxy right uh-huh in his mission to be able to do it it's a bed he's made and he's willing to lie in it and there's there's a piece that we see that with londo here of you know what it's not a good thing that he sends veer away.

[54:14] You know you go away you don't want to see this you don't want to be a part of this you're going to be my conscious and i can't have you doing this if i'm going to do bad stuff here it's not okay, well but you're alone i've always been alone it's okay i don't you know i'll i'll i'll tough it out but it's that same thing well i would say this is bad for londo in this moment, later on londo goes you know what i've made this bed this nobody should have keepers i'm gonna take this one though oh my gosh jeff this even mirrors a bit of what's going on with with the narn and Centauri, I'm going to take this one so nobody else has to have one. I'm going to take this one so we can defeat it so nobody else has to have one. Hey, we're going to make these sacrifices now for the Narn, and it's going to hurt.

[55:04] But we're doing this so that the Centauri get out and we can be free again. Yeah, but we got this. So I quite love this whole piece of Londo. Hey, listen, I've always been this way. I'm alone. It's okay. I'm justifying my actions. Be careful. It seems like I'm saying this is a good thing, but I'm not. It's actually issuing it a bit of a warning and saying don't use that as an excuse to make bad choices. Because Londo and what do we and okay here we go let me wrap it around what do we know about Londo we know the end of the story Londo needs Veer yeah he needs and he gets him back he desperately needs him I would in fact I would say in order Londo would not have been able to do what he does in season five had he not had Veer in his life for the vast majority of his at least the time here on.

[55:58] I would say to help pump up that don't do that is, and we don't know the answer to this, but I could imagine that if he kept Veer close, if he let Delenn, actually spoke with Delenn and had those conversations and had connections and brought people around him and wasn't always alone, maybe the Drock thing never would have even needed to happen. That's a good point. That's a very good point, Jeff. It's like he made the best out of a bad thing. We always say you make chicken salad out of chicken shit, but still, you shouldn't have to make the chicken salad. Right. He wouldn't – Morton wouldn't have been able to glom on to him. Franklin and Jakar. Let's do Franklin next. No, let's do Jakar. Okay. It's like my kid. Hey, you choose. I choose this. Oh, we're doing this other thing. No, it's because this one is just so much easier than the other one. And this really isn't even Jakar as much as it is Talon who said – and I'm going to screw up the quote because I'm missing the last word because it's better to die in the cause of freedom than to live in comfort in life.

[57:04] I put slavery, but I don't think that's the word he used there.

[57:08] But it's better to die in the cause of freedom. Listen, I don't know that there's a message here as much as I think this is a value. This is a value we as Americans say we hold. I think I like to think that I hold this value as well. I don't know that we are always – I'm going to say that I don't think we're always showing this as a country. Um, but I think this is something that is also, uh, ubiquitous to mankind. Okay. I don't think it's just an American idea either is what I'm trying to say. It is better to have it for millennia before America even exists. United States even exists. Yeah. Yeah. And we, we know this to be true. You know, we know this to be true. In fact, I think of from our own dark period of slavery here in this country, uh, there's a great line in the movie black panther where michael b jordan's character talks about um how uh they would go get these slaves from africa and many of them would jump overboard thinking it was better to die free than to live a slave uh something of that nature um other people say or live and be free like get through it right like like but that but again this goes back to This is the difference between Jakar and Nafar. Yeah. I wonder if there's a reason why those two names sound so similar.

[58:34] Jakar or Nafar. I don't think so. No? That's just when you have that kind of like naming structure, you're kind of limited on what you got. That's where you are. Okay, fair enough. So, yeah, that's the one I had is just – I think this is a – it's a phrase that just rings true and we'd do this if we didn't bring it up. Good catch. Good call. All right, Franklin. Dr. Franklin. You're going to like this one, Jeff. All right. You're going to like this one. All right. Don't do drugs. No, no, it's not even that. It's not that one. You know, Dr. Franklin, what's the reason? What's his reason at least he's giving himself for his STEM use? Well, he's a hero. They need him. But why? Because they're short staffed. They don't have the money. They don't have what they need. Dr. Franklin is legitimately overwhelmed. There is too much here for one person to handle, right? Here's the thing. Dr. Franklin is the boss. He is the CMO, right? Now, I don't know how his hands are tied for staffing or for anything like that, but we know there are other physicians there on Babylon 5, and perhaps there need to be a few more.

[59:43] Regardless of the ones that he has there Dr. Franklin needs to learn how to delegate he does not need to pull all this stuff on himself and to be the one guy we see it when they call him in the thing they're like hey what about Dr. So-and-so oh they're in isolation be there for a while I'm like there's, One other doctor, like that's it? And if there is and he's not permitted to bring on other doctors, that is a failure of those that are above him. And I certainly see in the real world. Yeah, that happens. Hospitals who refuse to hire actual staff for physicians. And by the way, that's how medical mistakes happen because doctors have to push too much to get through. You and I could have a whole conversation about the difference between hiring people who are producers of money for your organization versus people who are users of money who don't actually produce. And the basic idea, nobody goes to an organization because of the president or the secretary. They go to the organization because of this other person that provides a service or whatever they do, right?

[1:00:51] When you hire too much admin and not enough producers, this is what you get. But what happens is we often want to put the burden on the producers to produce more for these people to leech off of, basically. So bottom line, he needs to bring on the right people. He needs – the way he talked to that lady about skid marks, he needs to talk to his boss about getting more doctors in there because he cannot do this on his own. It's the problem of so many newer and inexperienced. That's not fair. I'll just say of so many managers. I was going to say inexperienced, but it happens across the board.

[1:01:26] They don't have enough security in their own skills and ability and their value and their professional worth that they see delegation as a sign of weakness. Or what if this person shows up and does a better job than me? Or what if they don't do as good a job? Either way, right? And then I have to be accountable for that. I'm either threatened or I'm in trouble, so I can't let it go. And, you know, I mean, so they just never delegate. And that's Franklin. In this case, I think he's afraid of someone upstaging him and afraid of someone making a mistake. I think he has both. I, I, yeah. Like, I wonder if, if there's the people there to actually delegate to.

[1:02:05] Um, but then there's also, I think exactly what you said. And yeah, I think brings up a good point here based on Franklin's job title. He should be administering, scheduling, hiring, all that sort of stuff. But we almost see him serving solely as the frontline doctor. I will tell you the doctors that I know who are in administrative roles like the CMO type roles, they do see, they do still have clinic, but it is usually less than half of what non wanted administrative physicians have i will say though as nia points that out and the big reason why i bring this in this is a sci-fi thing cmos on starships and and space stations and stuff are also almost always the frontline doctor on the show what's a tv thing no one's excited watching someone do scheduling and filing reports right if they did so i'd be on tv it'd be great You're the chief medical officer. Well, that's not, you know, it, it, maybe the, I don't know, Jeff, you were on a sub. Did you have a chief medical officer on your sub? We had a corpsman. We had one medical professional and it was a corpsman enlisted. So essentially a nurse. Okay. So not, and that person then probably had a chief medical person that oversaw multiple ships. Yeah, not really.

[1:03:30] There's a hospital on base yeah but i would almost think of it in terms of like if you had to go there and he'd refer you to the base hospital he reported to our co yeah but that person then not necessarily like they wouldn't be the cm anyway my whole point, i think you're right this is just a thing in sci-fi shows that, They do and say, and we see it all the time and it's not necessarily right. It's not. Jeff, you said you had a few things. What you got?

[1:04:01] Friendship, man. Like being there for the people in your life. And I think that what we, again, because we know what's coming, this message stands out more strongly. And both times it's Garibaldi. He shows up for Franklin twice, right? He shows up the first time calling him out on his thing. And then he shows up for him again where he's like, hey, man, sorry, I overstepped. He understood the boundaries, right, where he can and where he can't help. I mean, being an addict himself, I think, helped him navigate that. But that's great friendship. Hey, I need to say the thing. I said the thing. You got upset. Okay, cool. Hey, I'm sorry I said the thing. Also, I said it. So it's out there. I got it out. But then he shows up for Jakar as well. He didn't have to do that. You know? I mean. Yeah. they're not in the same chain of command all the ambassadorial stuff that happens garibaldi could take her leave right whatever took time out of his day to go over and be like dude don't do this you're gonna die right that pays off huge for him down you know down the road and um, yeah i just think like it doesn't take much to be there for the people in your life but the benefits for being there can be huge and truly life-changing. I think this episode, this episode and what it leads to showed that in just a really, really great way. Well.

[1:05:25] You and I got certain things out of this. I wonder what folks out there may have gotten. Would you guys do us a favor? Email us to – what is our email address these days, Jeff? Thebadnerds at gmail.com. I think that's what it is. That is our actual email address, right? Thebadnerds at gmail.com. Now should go to thebadnerds.com and hit the contact button. There's ways. You could do that as well. Actually, and if you're listening to the podcasting app, I think there's a link in the show notes actually that our hosting platform puts out that sends back a contact. Yeah, it says, like, send us a text or something. Multiple ways. Well, we'd love to know from you guys. Or join our Discord and hit it up on Discord. Let us know in our – we have a chat room that's just for Babylon 5 stuff in the green sector there. You guys check that out and let us know. We'd love to know what messages you guys pull out of the show. But that being said, Jeff, it is your turn, my friend. It is your turn to place an episode in the 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 3. Three, Jeff, my friend, you get to place this one. You have two in front of this one. I know where I would put this one right now. Okay. I'm curious where you're going to put this one. Number one right now is matters of honor. Two is convictions. They are in order. Do we stay in order? This becomes number three, or are we going to throw a monkey, a.

[1:06:45] Wrench in what's the phrase we're going to throw a wrench in the works i don't know whatever a monkey wrench i don't know what it is anyway are we going to mess it up jeff i don't want to be your monkey wrench this uh so in the original ranking of this it was matters of honor uh, the day in the strife convictions like they were separated by a few but that was kind of the order that it went in and what i think is interesting we tied a lot of parallels for convictions and Day in the Strife.

[1:07:14] Here's a throwaway storyline to do some stuff. Matters of Honor was all brand new stuff, right? We met Marcus. We got the White Star. We got Ndawi coming on, kind of laying out some of this stuff for Earth or whatever. Right?

[1:07:27] When we watched in the second season, the geometry of shadows, first time around, we were nonplussed by the whole thing. Yeah. But the second time, because we understood where it went, we ranked it very high and it stayed, um, stayed in the upper ranking of the whole thing. And Brent, that's, what's going to happen this time. I'm ranking a day in the strife based on what it gives us in the future, which is why it's our number one episode. So far. Yeah. So far. I would agree.

[1:07:51] That's exactly where I would put it. And I would not have thought that coming into today's episode at all. Same. Yeah. I was ready for the, like, oh, just, let's just keep that order going. It's, it's just, it's a look coming in. It's a fine episode. I still don't know. This is not severed dreams or point of no return. Like this is not that we're not, this is not war without end. This is not Zaha doom. This is not that caliber of an episode, but those are different types of episodes altogether for an episode that is, Hey, here's a wraparound story. Generic sci-fi but all this cool character stuff all the building i mean it it's almost unfair to put this in the same category as those but we're doing it by season so that's how we're going to do it but this you know yeah this is a good episode that is character building type episode yep absolutely well jeff that is going to do it for a day in the strife next week jeff i'm very excited about next week we get to one of our favorite episodes from our first watch a defining episode for us in many many ways.

[1:09:01] I think it set the tone for a lot of what was to come. Now that I think about it may have even influenced another episode about 12 episodes later and opinions there. Just just there may have been a connection. I'm just saying possible, but very excited to jump back into this and see this for a second time. Was it as good as we remember? Is it as meaningful as we remember or is it more? Is it less? What is it? But Jeff, we are watching passing through Gethsemane.

[1:09:32] Now we make predictions, or at least we did the first time around. We didn't know what the episode was going to be about. We know what this one's about. I remember this one. So do you. But before you knew what this episode was about, you made a prediction. Remind the folks and remind me what your prediction was for passing through Gethsemane. I thought this was going to be an episode about Zach, essentially our crew on Babylon 5, of watching him go through his trials, his questions around things that are going on in his world. And this would be where he either went full night watch or didn't. Do you remember what you predicted it was going to be? Yeah. Um, I said that this one, I kind of meandered around about it a bit, but where I landed was, uh, Sheridan and Dillon are facing the future that they have together, particularly the one that we learned about in comes the inquisitor, you know, I'm like, oh, you guys have a thing, right? Like, so they're facing that future and they have to decide if they're willing to sacrifice something in order to fulfill their destinies. Basically using the idea of Garden of Gethsemane was a place where Jesus went. He had a prayer trying to decide if whether or not he was actually going to go through with this thing. His prayer was, please let this pass from me if it's at all possible. If not, that's fine. You know, they're going to have to have that same sort of a thing that what are they going to have to sacrifice?

[1:10:55] Possibly, and I even went a step beyond because you and I were kind of already on this page, which I'm shocked if I about fell out of my chair when I heard us say this, because I don't know that I've, I'm wondering if we said this on an episode that you listened to that I didn't, but we talked about how we have been under this impression that Babylon five was going to succeed from earth. Okay. And we said it in the, like, I, we've just, this is just where we're filling. The show is going.

[1:11:25] It's going to happen in about 10 episodes. You all, you know, like, you know, when we made it, that was the season to wrap up when we were predicting what the season was going to be about. There it is. Yeah. And so you're right about that. You're absolutely right. So, um, I said, maybe this is what they'll start discussing then as to whether or not they would have to, uh, have to succeed. So that was my prediction. No, not bad. Not bad. I'm, I'm ridiculously excited for this one. Uh, I'm excited to listen to our first time one on this one as well, but Hey, we're going to watch that one next week. You want to make sure you don't miss that. And so wherever you're watching or listening, subscribe to this. So you don't miss it. You can be one of the first to watch or listen to it, which is super cool. I love the comments. Sometimes we see on YouTube first to comment. It's like, yeah, you rock. If you'd like to see our unedited stuff that's there or mountains and mountains of other content that we create, you can go visit our Patreon, patreon.com slash bad nerds. There's a link down in the show notes for that. If you want to support the show in a way that's not monetarily impactful, the way you can do that is by sharing this show. Share it with somebody. Let's grow our community and enjoy this absolutely masterful piece of television. So until next week we're going to get ready for yeah what's up right what's going on listen uh have a little announcement to make all right um we've we've had a good run here at the show.

[1:12:54] Long you know i mean we've been doing this for years now a lot longer than we thought we'd ever do definitely but uh the end has come this is my last episode man what are you talking about why Why is this your last episode? It's just too much, man. Look, the price is too high and I have to go. Brent, we hear all the time with our community, Brent, you're valued and you're needed.

[1:13:21] I have to go. Just trust me, it's for the greater good. But Brent, you are valued. You're needed. Listen, anyone who says the greater good, they ain't serving no good. That's not false at all. So look, I'm going to take this away from you. You can't go because not only you, but to our whole community, you are valued and you are needed. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. Just for the record, I want to be really clear. This is not my last episode.