Dec. 26, 2022

A Race Through Dark Places

Bester's back! Mary had a little lamb...

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Bester is back and he is on a mission! We get a much deeper look at the gift Ironheart left for Talia, and Jeff and Brent have some scary theories about Psi Corps' abilities and reach.

Babylon 5 For the Fist Time podcast logo with the Patreon logo on top of it


Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time. My name is Jeff Akin and I messed up that intro. Take it Jeff. Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Aiken and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time.

We are two veterans Star Trek podcasters watching Babel on Five for the first time. We're searching for Star Trek like messages within the series, episode by episode. And we're also just trying to decide how much we really like the series, watching it for the first time, 30 years too.

Jeff: While this is a Babylon five podcast, not a Star Trek podcast, like Brent said, we are Star Trek Podcast s So there's a good chance those references are gonna come in, especially I think maybe in this episode.

But to keep us on point, we have the rule of three. Each of us get three references up to three no more per episode. Once we go over, we gotta cut that out. Like I'll literally cut it out of the episode. Do you really? I never, I've never done that. I've threatened it a whole lot. I've never actually, And you've gone over, I think it was, I think cause like once

Brent: or twice was like, I don't care.

I don't care. I'm just gonna keep going. I'm gonna blow the whole thing.

Jeff: I've hit a lot of buttons when it happened. I'm like, No, there's noise. More noise. Well, hey, I wanna share, we have a lot of ways that you can interact with us and get in touch with us, right? If you're watching us on YouTube, we have a super active community on there that you can be a part of.

We're on Twitter at Babylon. First, we have a website, babylon five, that's the number five, and the word And you can contact us through that as well. And that's where the first thing I want to share with you, Brent, and everyone else, is a really cool email that's timely based on a topic that we talked about here last week.

Oh, spoilers. Okay. It's not spoilers, it's about spoil. So I think this will be good. This is from Trent. He went to our website, Babylon five Actually, no, I'm lying to you, but he actually sent us an email to our email address, Babylon five first You can do the same, but he says, or he asks, Do you guys consider behind the scenes production notes?

Spoilers? I can send you some of the current episode or backwards looking notes from Lu's Guide if you want. Otherwise, I'll keep you guys as pure as possible. I don't wanna ruin your Virgin Takes on the show. It is so enjoyable to re-experience one of my favorite shows through your unspoiled eyes. What do you think

Brent: about that one?

I, while I think that in general, no, it would not be a spoiler, especially if it doesn't refer. I think the two things refer to events that happen in in the future. or refer to knowledge that we don't necessarily have yet. You know what I mean? Like mm-hmm. . I think those are the two litmus tests. If we don't have knowledge of how the Great Council is comprised yet, then we don't need to know how the Great council's comprised

Yeah. Just let us live in our ignorance. It's fun. Uh, so I would say it's not a spoiler, but I think on a preference level though, Jeff, and I'm just speaking for me, not for you, so you chime in on this. I think I would prefer to have that when I go through a rewatch, not necessarily on a first watch. Some of it might be fun, but like a part of like, I don't necessarily care to be bogged down with production ideas, you know what I mean?

Like, I just wanna catch the story. I think I could be convinced to not, Yeah. I think it's,

Jeff: I don't think that's the hard thing with this is it's not just a, a cut and dry binary kind of thing, you know? Right. Like one of the things we heard that I, I think was really helpful for me about season one, cuz season one.

Was wildly inconsistent in so many ways, but one of the reasons for that is people shared with us that they shot the episodes out of order so they'd have enough budget left over for their big, the Big Bang episodes that they did. Cool. That's awesome. You didn't tell me anything you, It's about the production world.

That's interesting to me and it also helps me understand, you know, why some of the actors had slightly different takes on their characters. That was weird. Oh yeah. Cuz that's how they filmed it. That's fine. But I think like that, that, that gray council makeup is, is a perfect example, I think. Like when it bleeds.

Well here's another one. We still hear this one quite a bit. Hey, did you know that, uh, Gu Baldy and Talia Winters in real life were married for a while? I mean, it's interesting and it's cool. I kind of wish I didn't know that. Mm. Like I watched their interactions on screen differently now that I know that he went, Gary Baldy went from creep.

Like those scenes went from creepy and weird to. Kind of funny and sweet. They're kind of flirtatious

Brent: now. Yeah. Like wink, wink, nudge, nudge,

Jeff: uhhuh. I don't think they're supposed to be that way. Mm. Or maybe they are. I want, I don't want 'em, like, I want it to be just, I'm, I'm dude sitting and what was it on P 10 or whatever back in the day.

Like, I just wanna be dude watching it on there without the annoying commercials.

Brent: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, that particular example is one, like, I'm, I'm fine. It doesn't, it doesn't enhance or detract like that one particular thing. Yeah. The, the, the, the, um, Garal and to winters thing. Um,

yeah. Again, like I say, if, if it mentions, you know, events that happen in the future or knowledge that we don't yet have, which the thing about that, for those of you out there who have watched this show before, It can be really hard to remember what you don't know at this point of the story yet. And so that's, that's where that can draw a line.

So I, I would say, I would generally say no thanks. Um, but I appreciate the offer and please, if Jeff and I wind up doing a rewatch of this, like a, Hey, let's go through it again for a second time. One five for the second time. Right. If we do that, then I want all the behind the scenes information. Totally, totally.

All of it. Get, like, I love, I, I buy special, I, I buy DVDs not for the movie, but for the special features that you can't get from a digital download. Like I, I did. I love the special features, I love all the background stuff. Maybe just not for this particular run. Yeah.

Jeff: Keep us as, uh, what does he say it as pure as possible.


Brent: But thank you so much for the offer and honestly thanks for asking.

Jeff: Totally. It's perfect. And thanks for being worried about the spoilers. On YouTube. Michael Herma had a really cool thing that he talked about. You know, we've been talking since I think like the first or second episode of this show about apparently you can just beat people up on Babylon five , right?

That's, that's fine. He says, uh, with all the fighting and lack of charges, I kind of see Babylon five, like a frontier town, especially with all the different races and very different customs hanging out in a limited space in a lack of manners. Among those not in green sector, what looks like a vicious assault to us might just be a spirited culinary debate among a couple of p Mara.

As long as no lasting damage is done, I can see security letting a lot slide with the understanding that if they do have to get involved, they'll finish it quickly. No one will be happy.

Brent: I could, I could agree with that. If it's not a town of 250,000 people Yeah. If you're a town of like 200 people, I get it.

250,000. You gotta have a little more, uh, shall we say law and order? Here's my question outta that whole email though, Jeff, Do we know what green sector

Jeff: is? Yeah. Yeah, Green. What is green sector? That's like the cool. Um, I think that's the ambassador ring, right? Oh, is it? Oh, yeah. I That's the high class, high

Brent: class spot because I, I know there's like, there's the brown sector.

Um, and blue could be, which by the way would be hilarious if that was like the sewer line. be the brown sector.

Jeff: If that won five were written by 12 year old boys. , right?

Brent: No, Jeff, Jeff, I am not joking. I Walt Disney World. In Walt Disney World, there is a land called Liberty Square. I don't know if you're familiar with it.

Mm-hmm. , all of the concrete throughout Walt Disney World is red. Yeah. For some stupid reason. Except for in Liberty Square, there is a cobblestone path running through the red concrete. Do you know why? Why? Because that is the symbolic of the river of poop that people back in the colonial days would just throw their bed pans out of the window into the street and it would just be, that's what that is.

Like legitimately what that is. So take back your 12 year old boy comment

Jeff: because, Well, I feel like, you know, people, people tend to get pretty riled up about, you know, when we take some statues down and stuff, people get riled up about, you know, losing our history and glossing over it. Mm-hmm. , I think there are parts of it that it might be okay to gloss over and, and rivers of human feces might be one of those things we can just gloss, gloss right over.

That's all I got for, uh, for stuff on this one.

Brent: Well, Jeff, since that's all you've got, I've got something for you. Oh, sweet. I've got the rule of three. This is a game that we like to play right here at Babbel on five for the very first time. Nope, I'm sorry.

Jeff: Let take that back. Yeah, you should do. Yeah. And I'm even looking at the copy on the note.

It's a little weird to read, so

Brent: I, Yeah, we should rewrite that. Yeah, see you too. You hit the behind the scenes of Out Takes. Well, Jeff, since that's all you got, I got something for you. All right. You know, we like to play our game like the rule of three. Well, here I've got another game just for you and me.

It's another game we like to play where when we get to the end of the episode, we like to guess what next week's title is. So, since this episode is over now, Jeff, Oh no, no, no, sorry. This is actually the spot where we re, where we revisit what we did last week into this week. And so Jeff, last week, we made a guess a blind guess.

We. I swear to Heaven Almighty, Jeff, we do not watch the episodes ahead. We do not read show descriptions. We, we do nothing. But see the title of next week's episode, and I don't even look at that title until you mention it at the end of the episode. I swear, hand on whatever Holy book or not Holy book, you would like for me to put that hand on.

That's how the game was played. And we make a prediction based on, on that alone, Jeff. Let's revisit it and see how accurate we were. What did you say last week? You thought a race through the dark places was gonna

Jeff: be, So there's what I, what I thought, right? Some keer thing actually racing through hyperspace and looking at things.

But Brent, um, for someone who has never looked ahead at this or watched this before, you hit some pretty obscure and very specific plot points. Very exactly. In a way that I, This is what, two weeks in a row now, Right? Soulmates was pretty close. Beat to beat. And this one, I think it's time we have this, uh, this conversation cuz like, this is a well written show, like, Right.

But I mean, wow. Listen, this was no

Brent: episode called Parliament of Dreams, where it was neither about a parliament nor a dream. True. But Jeff, just let's get technical about this, because if I recall, what I actually said was this episode could not be about baster, Could it? It couldn't be about baster. And so I say no, I, I did not call Ster being in this episode.

In fact, what I did say is I said, this episode would be about Franklin. It would center on Franklin dealing with some sort of an ethical problem. And while. This certainly had an element of Franklin in it. It was a really minor part of the whole episode. It didn't center on him. And frankly, if you took him out of it, the episode wouldn't have changed at all.

And I'm not really sure that it was an ethical thing cuz he was just doing the right thing. He was doing

Jeff: the right thing. Doing the right thing that was against the law. Like clearly to the point that Garabaldi was even it was about, and your whole thing was, it's gonna be a Cy core thing. It's gonna, I'm like, there's no way it can be a cy, They just had a Cyco episode.

Right? And then there's no, I mean I want baster. It's gotta have baster. There's no way it could have bastard. I'm like, there's no way. Yeah, you're right. There is no, But here

Brent: we are. Listen, maybe, maybe what it is is actually JMS was seeding these previous episodes to get you, like he, he's doing that inception thing where he's planting the thoughts in your mind where it's like, you know, it's about time.

We go have a visit from that dude best. And we found out what's going on with Talia's little gift that she got from now. We've been talking about that for weeks. They dropped that story and we haven't heard about it. We gotta come back to it. We've been saying that for weeks

Jeff: now. So literally what you're saying is you, you are the target audience for jms and everything he wrote was literally for you to go, I can do this math.

Like I can just, I'm totally Rust pro this whole thing. I

Brent: will, I will 100% own everything you just said. I am the target audience for this show. Yes.

Jeff: Well, I don't know how to test this. Um, but if we can ever test your cy rating, your P rating, I think we're gonna, I think we, it might be that, right? Cause I'm very clear with mine.

It's gone from a negative two to a negative four. I'm you opposite of a telepath. Yeah. I mean, seriously. I mean, is Keer even in this show anymore?

Brent: Yeah. Well, nobody, I gotta, I know I texted you this earlier, but, but I'll share it here. Anyway. I seriously thought about actually looking ahead at the next episode so that I could purposely guess wrong because.

You're right. It is becoming a little ridiculous and it's like, what in the world, world? I'm not trying, I promise I'm not looking ahead.

Jeff: And honestly, like if you're listening to this and not watching this, I'd see Brent every week when I tell him, Hey, here's the name of the thing. He's like, Oh shoot. What is the

The what? That had more than three words in it. What was it? Because you,

Brent: you also take out the very long pause where I'm thinking it through. Yeah. You know's just you're like, just coming up that off the top his head. No, no, no, no. I'm giving it some time and thinking

Jeff: about it. Yeah. People watched rent for like two minutes and 14 seconds be like, um, I dunno.

can you repeat that? What? Write it in the thing. So, so you

Brent: said, Well, what was it? Was it last week? It wasn't this, it was last week's. Like, I literally talked myself into the plot line. Like I started at one spot and I continued to talk until I got into the like, Oh, you know what would be cool? Oh. And then, you know, it would be cool.

And then like, what if like, and then this, Okay, so here's the new idea. That has nothing to do with what I originally

Jeff: said. Yeah. All right, Well, we'll see. But for those of us who. For those of you who haven't watched this before for a long time and you're wondering what in the heck we're even talking about with Bester?

What and who's this? Whatever. Brent, can you remind all of us what this episode erased through dark places was all about?

Brent: Buckle in folks, cuz here we go. It was a normal day on Babylon five. That is until a ship arrived carrying the bad guy. But since that doesn't actually happen till eight and a half minutes into the episode, let's rewind and talk about what we missed.

Sheridan is blowing a gasket at the audacity of Earth Force. To require him in a vva to either move to smaller quarters or start paying rent has nothing to do with the fact that they want 30 credits a week for a measly seven square feet. It's the principle of the matter, Jeff, the principle of the matter.

Sheridan even tells Dr. Franklin that he's gonna stick to his guns, but Franklin clearly doesn't think that that's gonna get him anywhere. And Franklin says, Hey, don't worry about it, Jeff. I'll always have a cop for you in my quarters. Because when you're a doctor, you could medically requisition one. You know, just in case a newly widowed alien lady just happens to faint right outside your door and you can bring her in and attend to her needs.

Speaking of attending to her needs, Thelen has a need. She has a need to learn more about humans, and so she asks Sheridan out on a date, like a date. Date, meanwhile, back on Earth, or at least I think it was Earth. It actually might have been Mars. Now that I think about it, our old friend who couldn't possibly be in this episode at all best.

Has been searching for details about a telepathic underground railroad that is smuggling unregistered telepaths to the outer planets to keep them away from cycorp. They're even going so far as to scan a guy so deeply that it kills him, but not before. Bester catches the, but not before Bester catches the location of the underground railroads clearing house Babylon.

Five. Everyone all caught up? Okay, good. Now, it was a normal day on Babylon five until a ship arrived carrying a very prominent member of Sycor, demanding very nicely to have an immediate face to face with station command. Yep, you guessed it. Our old buddy Bester is back on Babylon five. He tells the whole command crew, including Talia about the Underground Railroad.

No one is particularly sad to learn that this is being operated through Babylon. Five. It's just. They're kind of at odds with it because technically it's illegal. Ivanova clue shared an in that that investor guy is not to be trusted. He only needs to do is just go watch that season one episode, mind war, or check the files, whatever.

While the command staff are all talking about this stallion investor are getting a nice little walk and talk, which is important because that later leads us to Talia being alone in her quarters, watching sort of a clip show of mind war with all that stuff that happened with Jason Iron Heartd, including the fact that he gave her a gift, a super side power, which totally launches a penny because they have pennies in the future into the wall of her quarters.

Good news folks. It wasn't an exterior wall, no explosions. Bataglia also realizes in that moment that Jason gave her another gift. She also has the ability to shield her mind from bester. Because he was with her a few times and didn't even pick up on the new powers at all. Well, while that's happening with Talia Delin and Sheridan, they're out on that date and it's going well, Like really well, like really, really well.

So well in fact that later that night when Sheridan is falling asleep with Ava, he starts cracking stupid dad jokes at her A ps. Sheridan and Iva aren't the thing. They just both got locked out of their quarters because they didn't pay rent, and now they're sleeping in his office. But the whole Sheridan and the Lynn thing, yeah, we're gonna have to keep an eye on that one.

All right, back to the bad guy. Bester and Talia are having breakfast the next morning. They're not on a date, but they're clearly being attacked by some lurkers. Try that again. When they're suddenly attacked by some lurkers, pester stains his ground and he shoots back cuz they're shooting at him. What he doesn't notice is that Talia is actually kidnapped by the lurkers while Ster is shooting back, cuz they're shooting at him and back with the command staff.

Ster is relaying just how awesome he was because he survived an attack where they were shooting at him. Talia? Yeah, he's sure she's safe. They weren't really shooting at her cuz they were shooting at him. Did he mention that they were shooting at him? Well, Talio awakens down below right smack dab in the middle of Underground Railroad hq.

At first she's like, Hey listen, you guys really ought to go back to side cor cuz they're super cool and they surely wouldn't hurt you. That is until they all start telling her their stories. Some include the murder of a brother. Some include arranged marriages that Talia herself experienced. Some even included forced pregnancies.

Talia is beginning to come around and they say that they have a plan. For how to beat Bester. Now Sheridan has arranged a meeting through Dr. Franklin with the leader of the Underground Railroad. When Sheridan arrives at the underground, he learns that Dr. Franklin is the leader of the Underground Railroad, cuz of course he is.

He's actually a part of a group of doctors that identify people with latent te. He's actually a part of a group of doctors that identify people with latent telepathic ability and try to get them safely out before Cycorp can find out about them. Sheridan's kind of caught between a rock and a hard place with this.

He could turn Franklin in and the others, but that wouldn't be right and it would mess up babble on five pretty good. Or he could just let Vester come down cuz he's on his way and discover everyone for himself, in which case more bad things would happen, like they're all going to die. But Talia has a third option in mind.

When Ster arrives, he is confronted by the entire group of Teles who without gun, who without their gloves on, let the powers combined. And they all think pain at the exact same time. And ster begins to buckle, but he doesn't break because after a few seconds, Talia turns on the Teles and she investor, take everyone out with a pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, literally pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.

Leaving those two as the only ones left standing investors like, Hey, this is pretty cool. Look, no witnesses. Now let's get out of here. After he's gone, shared in and Franklin to merge and they look over at Talia and the very much alive, Telepaths, all still holding hands, still doing their psychic thing.

You see, they planted that sequence of events, investors' minds, so that he would leave not knowing anything, any different. This wouldn't have been possible without Talia's super souped up powers, but that's still not enough to save the underground railroad operation at B five. That's okay though. There are others out there and they will take the place of this one Babylon.

Five is just too hot now. Still believing the whole Rouse best, or asked Talia to keep an eye out on Sheridan. He pauses just before leaving. Does he know about her powers? Did he pick up on it? Well, we don't really know because he just turns around and walks away. Anyway,

this whole situation has been really heavy. Natalia. She needs a drink, so she turns to the one person on this station that she can turn to of Vava, who's now back in her quarters after Sheridan diverts some of that military money to pay the rent. But if a Vva is gonna have to talk with her, Talia is gonna have to remove that side core badge, which she does, and I really, really hope.

That badge isn't some sort of communicator

Jeff: the end.

That was a good job. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot to get in there. There's a lot of this episode,

Brent: a lot of things I tried my best to like

Jeff: condense. Yeah. This is one of those ones on like a second viewing. Like I was picking up stuff I didn't pick up on the first one. Yeah, I'm sure on a third there'll be more.

Yeah. But you know, I think, and this is, this is ridiculous. I've just been, ever since we started recording, I've had to figure out a way to work this in and I might even cut this out, but I've gotta say it. Bester paused at the end, look back, you know, for a second. Kind of started and, and turned, That's actually where the title of the episode came from.

Race Through Dark Places, cuz he's not getting on a shuttle craft back to Mars. He's getting on a shuttle craft to go for his colonoscopy.

All right. Um. What a race through dark places.

Brent: Oh, Jeff,

Jeff: I asked the show. We're done.

Brent: Oh my God.

Jeff: Here I, Here's the thing, we,

Brent: It's my first time

My apologies. I need a moment,

Jeff: right? Hey, we're back. We're back.

Brent: It's too dark. God. Yeah. Yes, I am 12 years old and poop, Jake poop jokes still work with me.

Jeff: I never said it wasn't funny. The whole Poop River thing. I Right. Okay. It makes me laugh

Brent: every time I go through Disney, but I just look at it and, and just giggle.

Jeff: Like, I'm gonna walk

Brent: down that at me. I, I talk about it with my 10 year old son. As we're walking, I'm like, Look, Jade River Poop.

Jeff: Okay.

I literally, I literally yelled out loud in my office alone twice, two times during this episode. Like, it was, it wasn't like one of those like, ha, you know, laughs or whatever that we've had a couple of times. Like, I, I literally like, what, Two whole times in this one. It was so good. It was fun, it was heavy, it was dark and like, I feel like in the earth Mars cyco thing, I don't know that the pieces are really coming together, but like mm-hmm.

I feel like I kind of know what the pieces are. Now, if that makes any sense. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like they started, they started, they almost busted out for us. The, the cork board and the red yarn tying everything together. Right, Right. Sango getting killed, Iron Heart, um, Lurker dude who was also with Iron Heart, who came on the cycorp breeding program, all that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm. , I, I also loved as a bureaucrat, as a government worker, I loved the budgetary politics, . Mm-hmm. , you know, that they had in this one. But seriously, Ster was back and he was bester than ever. Yes, he was.

Brent: Yeah. Yes, he was. So, here's the thing, I'm, I am aware that people keep talking about Bester. People love Bester.

As soon as he, he popped up and, Oh, it's, it's Walter Kig. You've got him on the show. Oh, he's like, he says it's his favorite role he's ever done, even more than check off and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, so at that point, like in the back of my head again, folks, you're giving me information. I, it's behind the scenes, but.

He clues me into, He's gonna be back. I don't know how more often he's going to act like, like here's, here's an example. Do you know how many, Do you know how many times Q was in Star Trek, Jeff? It

Jeff: was like seven or something like that, wasn't it? He was in seven

Brent: times for Next Generation and then he was in like a total of 11, like four more times with the other shows.

Mm-hmm. 11 episodes. That's it. Not counting the new stuff that's in and think of how Major Q is in the Star Trek universe. Bester could wind up being in like six episodes total of Babylon five and be felt as this like huge major presence. Totally.

Jeff: And I was off, off my button a little bit there, but Yeah, exactly.

But what I loved about him in this one mm-hmm. , he wasn't really wrong. Like he was just following the law. You know, there's a law that says Taas have to do this. This is going on. I gotta do something about it.

Brent: Yeah. Well, I I would, Yes, technically

Jeff: you are correct. Well, he relished in it, That's the thing.

Right. It's a law that shouldn't

Brent: exist. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it's a law that is morally reprehensible. And there's so much to talk about with that. There is so much that they really explored in this episode. Um, but I whole agree with you. Like, it feels like Walter Kig is really figuring out bester. Yeah. In this episode.

Like, I don't think he did anything that contradicts what we saw with him last time, but last time he felt very wooden and very, uh, Well, bad guy-ish.

Jeff: He was a villain. This was clearly a villain. Yeah.

Brent: Right. This time he was much more.

I don't wanna say smooth. No. You know what it is. You know who the best villains are, are the one who, like you kind of understand where they're coming from, and he had more of that I think, in this episode than he did before. Like there's a legit, there's a legit piece to, we have to get the tele paths out to protect everyone else because they're a security risk like that.

That's a legit thing that you have to be concerned about, you know? Yeah. Are they really a security risk? I don't,

Jeff: We can talk about that later, but yeah, the, well, and I think there's a lot of questions around it, but I think if you take out that first scene of him on Mars, like literally crushing the dude's brain like a grape, you know, I mean, Just that sociopathic piece of, she's like, Oh my God, he's dead.

He's like, Doesn't matter. Who cares? I caught it. I got the information. This guy's life means nothing. You take that scene away and just have him show up on Babbel on five, even with the history in mind War, and he comes in and you just get that senior staff briefing that starts it off. Yeah, that's a totally reasonable request.

He's coming in. Mm-hmm. , he's talking to the right people. He's not running some rogue operation. He's asking to work with them. Right. He's just doing his job at that point, and I think that adds so much to, and I loved the play between him and Garabaldi, cuz Garabaldi got that. He understood it. He's like, This sucks.

I hate you. I hate this law, but also like it's my job to uphold the law. So I guess, I guess we'll do this thing.

Brent: The O, the only times Bester felt bad was the beginning scene that you just discussed and then at the end where he was like, Yep. No witnesses. Let's get outta here before they get down here.

And I don't wanna answer any questions. Yeah. , like even when he was shooting people, he was getting attacked. Exactly. He was different. Now he could be full of himself and be like, Oh, look, everybody, Oh, forget about her. They weren't after her. They were after me, and I took care of it. Like, that's just him being full of himself.

Mm-hmm. , that's not bad, but you're right. Like he had that,

that kind of thing. Jeff, I I have to ask you, because I know this is on my mind, and this is on the mind of all of our listeners out there and all of our viewers on YouTube. You said you yelled twice. Are you going to tell us at what points you yelled? Yeah. Or do I need to drag it out of you? ?

Jeff: Yeah, that's, I doesn't let 'em come up in conversation, you know, Cause whatever.

So the, the one that I think everyone is probably in their mind is thinking, but it was in that moment when all the teles were holding hands. Mm-hmm. and lurker dude is like, Someone's working against us. And you have that moment of like, I wonder who it is. And he turns and he is like, It's you. And then tall is like, Go and she whips out a ppg.

I literally, I'm putting my finger on the sensor. I literally screamed. Holy. I couldn't believe it. Like, I could not. And I was, the whole time I'm just like, Oh my God. And then the cut to like, Nope, that's all a thing. I'm just like, That was brilliant. That was, that was such good television. So yeah.

Brent: Such

Jeff: good writing at that moment.

Yeah. And the, the cutting, the editing and, Cause what it did is, You don't expect that from Talia. Right? So it immediately rocks you and you're in this weird spot and then it comes out and they're still there. Share it and stand in there and everything's fine. And like mentally you're still like, What is happening?

Happening? You got this dissonance in your, in your mind. And then they're like, Well, we did this whole thing. And the timing of it, like your brain kind of settles just at the right moment to accept the story. Mm-hmm. and, and they even slow played it, had Sheridan basically restate everything that just happened, you know?

And then they're like, Yeah, because we did this thing. And you're like, Oh yeah. It was

Brent: very Ocean's 11.

Jeff: Yeah. Right. Yeah. In that moment, right. We did loose one and here's how this happened in the whole piece. Mm-hmm. . But the other time I yelled and freaked out was during the date with Thelen and Sheridan.

Mm-hmm. . And when Sheridan leaned back and he is like, Yeah, . And I was like, Oh, they're gonna, cuz last week, right? We're talking about the cramps and the reproductive system. We're like, I wonder who she's. She wants her some Sheridan, and I think Sheridan wants, uh, I think, I think this is gonna happen. Is this gonna become a thing?

I think it is. Is this a thing? Is this the, It was so, it was so teased out and like Yeah. That moment when he leaned back and like they rested on him, leaning back for like mm-hmm. time. Like you felt him basking in that moment.

Brent: Yeah. Cuz it, I mean this certainly, like, he, she shows up in the dress and he's like, like you could, you could almost see the cartoon eyes like shooting out of his face.

Like, Ooh, Godah. You know? Totally. Yeah. Um, and they're, I mean, they're laughing and they're giggling and she's touching his arm. You

Jeff: know, everything, everything there was, there was palpable tension there and he just fell. Right. And even that whole scene when he and Ivan Oliver in his office, and he's just like, he's basking in it.

You know? It's, we, we've all experienced that, that first date with someone and you're like, This is gonna be magic. I love her, him, and it's gonna be the best thing ever. He's in that moment, like, lean him back. And Ivanna was literally like, I would stab you right now if I didn't work with you. I just want to go to sleep.

Please shut up. .

Brent: So I, I gotta, I might, I'm, I'm gonna save this for later when we get into the discussion about Deltas and stuff, but I thought this was the perfect B plot to the, A plot that was going on. Yeah,

Jeff: the, the two

Brent: Delan and Sheridan on this date and baster in people looking for this underground railroad, Those two.

Juxtaposed against each other and the messages of what's happening between the two. I can't wait until we get to that part to talk about it. Don't let me get outta here without, without mentioning it. I don't think I'm gonna be able to, but we've gotta talk about that because these, this is one of those episodes where like, if you, if you really look at it, and this is where we apply that analytical lens mm-hmm.

that we get those two things really like dovetail into each other and, and couple up and, and I I can't wait to Yeah.

Jeff: Like tko, you know, people still malign, tko, but those two plots were perfect for each other. Exactly. And you

Brent: know, and people talk about like, yeah, the Talia stuff was cool, but the other stuff was just goofy.

And I'm like, Yeah, but when you see how their inner cut together Yeah. The fight that is happening physically here versus the fight that's happening with Talia and where the thing where the two people are breaking at various points, like, it just, it, it's great storytelling. And this one had that in there as well.

Mm-hmm. .

Jeff: Since we're in the office right now, is Sheridan Inva. Can we talk about those jokes? Oh,

Brent: those marvelous, Yeah. Pieces of, Oh my gosh.

Jeff: Yes, please. So, I mean, obviously there was the hilarious one about, uh, I wouldn't even borrow. Does it take to screw in a light bulb? None. They always surrender right before they finish the job and they never tell you why.

Brent: I really hope that this was not a joke that she told him. I was hoping Why you, like, where did this joke come from? Like, cuz he just bagged on this girl that he just went on a date with, effectively.

Jeff: But I, My favorite though was the knock, knock joke. It was yes, but, but not, not because of the g This is how I would like to tell that joke.

Okay. So I'm gonna, we're gonna play it here. Okay. So you, you, you ha do you start it? Yeah. So you, uh, So I say knock, knock. Who's there? Ksh. Kahu. Exactly. Where the hell is this guy? I haven't seen him once in the second season. , I don't think he's been in the second season. Has he? Yeah. I mean, they haven't even like had his, his, There were, there were extras in the background that were all naed up and looking stuff.

Not single Bolon, no cash, no nothing. Not even standing around. Who is this guy? Is he even in the credits anymore? I don't know. I skip is

Brent: like, is it so expensive to put this guy in the episode that they just keep not writing

Jeff: him in? I mean, they could just put his costume there and just have like, Oh, there, he's in the background.


Brent: you go. Just don't have the camera pan buys.

Jeff: He's back there. Yeah. Don't keep on him too long. I really did enjoy the, the, that making them rent their room storyline. I, I thought it, I thought it was great.

Brent: I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. What? And not, and not the storyline, what they actually were saying.

They're gonna make them. Okay. I don't know how much a credit is in today's money. Let's assume it's a one for one. One credit for $1. Let's just assume. Yeah. 30 credits a week. 30 bucks a week. And I'm gonna take Yvanova's word for it for seven square feet. $120 a month for seven square feet. You're gonna quibble over that.

Jeff, My desk and my chair take up more than seven square feet of where I'm sitting right now.

I couldn't believe it. I'm team Sheridan on this one. Don't pay it.

Jeff: So I get it. I think it's because I work for the government that I get it. Like I see this kind of stuff happen. Mm-hmm. all the time. Hey, uh, you have to live here. Like, here's you, you can't go live off base. Right. This is, uh, but hey, we're gonna, we're gonna find a way to charge you for it.

That's what we're gonna do. I thought, So my two thoughts, one I'll touch, actually, I'll touch on both of them really quick, but I was disappointed. I, I, I appreciated Sheridan fighting the. Because the principle of like, he was right to fight this fight, but also as a leader, leaders eat last. I, I will happily take the smallest room in here if it allows us to do this, that and the other.

Now that's the point that was never made. Right? So you're saving this money by charging us 30 bucks a week. Seriously. That's gonna make or break the bank. I loved his problem solving though, where he is like, Yeah, just diverted funds from our combat readiness fund to pay for it. But he diverted it's 60 bucks or whatever, you know, for the two of 'em from combat readiness.

A week. A week, Yeah. So he diverted that from combat readiness. About a year ago, uh, Commander Jefferson, Claire pulled 1.3 million or credits from mm-hmm. . The, there's no way this doesn't end in some sort of a catastrophe at some, I don't know. I don't know. And they'll

Brent: wor honestly, they'll worry more about the credits being used for the, for

Jeff: the.

for the rooms housing. Yeah. Yeah. Cause again, it's the principle, you know, they, they flex to this thing, but I thought, I thought it was, to me it was just such a great look at how government works, cuz that's exactly what it does. And Niva even had that line. Oh, that's pretty funny. You know, you know, pulling money from this place to pay this place.

That's how government works, at least here in the United States. We have entire federal and state agencies that bill other federal and state agencies for doing their core function. They have the same budget. It comes out of the, literally the same wallet it goes, It has changed what pocket it's sitting in, in there,

It's ridiculous. I thought it was a neat commentary on, on our, on our state as a government and also just the principal that they do stuff like that. I thought it was an

Brent: interesting thing to put in the episode. An interesting plot line on some level. It was kind of the, the. So somebody named us in an episode a long time ago.

It was the tragic Relief. Okay. The comedic relief. Like, cuz it, it really was the haha throughout the course of the episode. And it was about the only real haha that we got. Cause there was the lovey thing with, with yeah. Sheridan and Lynn. There was the heavy stuff with Baster and the Underground Railroad and all that sort of stuff, which, we'll get into that in just a second.

This was the funny part, but like, were they running short on time for this episode and they had to fill it in with something like, I, I just, I don't understand why they brought this

Jeff: in. I think it accomplished, I think it accomplished three things. I think that it reintroduced us to, um, the, the budget that, you know, this is the first time Sheridan's had to sit and look at the budget stuff.

We got a couple of those with Sinclair. Mm-hmm. . So this kind of like, Hey, there's a budget. This is a, an operation that he has to run. It got him and Avan. In a room together where they weren't working right? Like mm-hmm , let's create a situation and, and the jokes, they were funny, whatever. But what it showed like it's, it's developing that personal relationship between Sheridan and Iana that I think is really important.

But the big thing that it did, I think this is a huge thing actually, is it told us that there are a ton of Earth military transports that are going through Babylon. Five. Where are they going? Where are they coming from? Why is Earth moving the military around? Hmm. I think that like the other stuff was great.

Little reminders build a little bit, but this was a seed that was dropped. That Earth is prepping some military operation and they're doing it through Babylon five.

Brent: My initial response to that, Jeff might be reading too much into. I could be wrong. People out there, people out there are like, Oh, Brent, you're so wrong. This is absolutely a hint. They dropping and that's fine. I'm glad to be wrong on that. I, my, my suspicion is that's really more of a throwaway line. Like it's just a, this is just what happens and they're not gonna go anywhere with


Jeff: People love it when we say their throwaway lines. That really, that really, that really gives people Yeah. They love it. Yeah. Right. Cause

Brent: it always means we're just wrong. Right. . Um, the fact that Sheridan and Ivanova got locked out of their quarters was hilarious to me. so funny. And

Jeff: then Car Bald did, like, that was the whole point of the scene.

Like when he went into, we learned that that bar, at least I learned it's called Earhart. I didn't know that before. Yeah.

Brent: Hello? Amelia Earhart. They had the propeller on there and all that. It all sense. Now I, I really wonder if they know that she's just living out in the Delta

Jeff: quadrant. Exactly. They could get her at any point.

It's so close to where they are. Just to jump gate away really? But I thought it was great. He's like, Hey, uh, hey Yon, are you running this whole underground railroad thing? I've got question. No, it's not me at all. Okay, cool. Hey, I got something I gotta tell you, . And you know, we literally took her aside and it's like, I just got these orders.

My men are doing it right now. Sorry.

Brent: You know what I loved was I really? Okay, so I don't, How many months ago was it? It was a while Since the movie's been in the theaters for a while now. At this point as we record this, the new Top Gun movie's been out for a while now. Oh, a long time. Yeah. Maverick, Right?

It's been, I mean, what's it been, 6, 7, 8 months now? I guess

Jeff: easy because it was like early, it was like, Yeah, it was like June that came out, I think. Yeah. Oh

Brent: yeah. It was like way back at the beginning of the summer. So, yeah. Like what? Nine months ago now. Um, in that movie, spoiler alert, they had a scene.

Where somebody said something they weren't supposed to in a bar and they had to buy a round of drinks for everybody.

Jeff: That's a real thing. That's a real thing. . If you go into a bar, a military bar and you'd go there to work, talk official business you got, That's a real thing. You got, we used to tell people like, For real?

Yep. I've

Brent: never heard that before in my life. I don't. I was in the, a lot time in military bars, so whatever. But yeah,

Jeff: we used to have a rule when I was in the Navy cuz we, uh, so I was on a submarine. We wore poop suits. It's a jumpsuit thing. And uh, they were blue and we used to always, people would come up and you're just like, Am I wearing blue right now?

Cause I'm not, so why are you talking to me about work like layoff? I thought that was cool. They did that. That was a neat, neat, uh, just piece of realism that they had.

Brent: I wonder how much a, a round of drinks cost for a bar. As busy as Airhart was

Jeff: at that point. There are a lot of people in there and that bartender was really excited to get that going.

he was not letting him get away. . But I wonder, as we were talking about that, when, uh, the end Devonna was laying down, you know, and then Talia comes in and interrupts her, but she's wearing like, that was a pretty swanky night. That was Wow. Yeah. Part of me wonders, Wow. Did Garabaldi buy that for her is like an apology.

Like, he's like, Hey, sorry for locking you outta her room. Here's, here's, here's a 90 for you. I know you have trouble sleeping.

Uh, Yeah. Level of luxury we've been told doesn't happen on Babbel on

Brent: five. She had a silk night on. Yeah. Which I, I, you know, I mean, and she was just gorgeous in it. And I mean that in all the respectful ways. I really, I really don't mean that disrespectfully to her at all. Like, like, wow.

Jeff: Should we dive into the railroad stuff?

Brent: Yes, but I wanna make fun of it just a little bit. All right. Not of the railroad stuff, of, of some, something specifically that happened with baster or a couple things that happened with, with Baster. Um, okay. First of all, you mentioned yelling. I also yelled, and I'm surprised that this isn't the spot that you yelled.

Please get ready for your sensor button there, Jeff. Oh, okay. Because when ster came on screen within the first three minutes of the episode or whatever, I literally went, Holy, It's ster. , like, was like, Holy my God. I mean, part of it was the fact that I just said, this could not be a bester episode. I, I didn't even see it coming.

They're talking about budgets in their bedrooms. What the heck is this guy doing in this episode? Like, Floored me. I texted you in that moment. Yep. And I went, Jeff, I just watched the opening of this episode and I, I said, all I can say and I sent you a gift. Like, Lucy Uhhuh. Lucy Ball. Lucy Ball going like big eyes going like, ah,

I wanna know when you got that cuz I tried to be as cry as I possibly could. what did, what ran through your mind? Cuz you hadn't watched

Jeff: it yet. I literally, the thing I thought is, Oh my God, it's a Dr. Franklin episode and he's doing some sort of weird, illegal ethical thing again. Like, Oh look, oh look.

Surprised Brent got the episode right again, .

Brent: Uh, yeah. And, and then the other one, and I was this, this might have been Sheridan and this might have actually been when he's talking about the room thing, but he says the word fra. Yes. Abs a

Jeff: frain. Lutely

Brent: abs a frain, lutely. . He is one hard K. Sound away from getting to the word fren.

Mm-hmm. and I really need to hear this word by the time the show is over. Cause I know that this show is pre Battle star Galactica, but for all the ways that they try to get around cussing in this show, I need to hear fracking. It's

Jeff: gonna happen at some point. It has to Got,

Brent: it has to. Um, Oh, here's the other one.

I feel like I've noticed this before, but this one for some reason really, really stood out to me. The part of the episode where Bester is on the calm, talking to Talia. Mm-hmm. . And she's not even looking at him, she's looking away. Which I get. There's a staging thing to that there. Well, she's

Jeff: still watching the Iron Heart replay, like still, Right.

That's on a different screen

Brent: for her. I don't think they have that side of the wall for the set built. So they have to shoot her facing, you know, facing out. But I felt like I could see and hear them shooting Walter Kig part of that, of that inter exchange, and I could almost hear somebody off screen reading the part of Talia and him just sitting there waiting and the director cuing him to say his next line.

Like, I like It didn't feel natural at all. At all.

Jeff: It clearly prerecorded what it felt like. I mean, everything, his tone and everything was, I just, I really expected him, you know, he's, he's talking and I would like to take you to breakfast so that we can talk about this. And then expected him to look at her with a little smile and say, We're reliant out, hit the button and then, you know, have it all go.

It was just that whole mm-hmm. look, I'm being controlled in saying a, saying a thing. I think a lot of the bab calming that happens in Babylon five, has that feel like it's, that's a thing. Mm-hmm. . And I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the buzz. Star Trek does a really, really good job in having dialogue between the view screen and the actor they have all the way back to the original series.

It's always worked really well. It's come across natural. There's only been a handful of them in Babylon five that have seemed natural. They are clearly taped. Yeah. Very separately. Yeah. That one just really showed cause it was, it was totally Star Trek, two checkoff. Totally. Mm-hmm. .

Brent: Um, okay. I think that's all the fun things I have

Jeff: one thing, I

Brent: mean, I'm sorry.

Just so I know on account, I have one reference left. Is that right? We both, We both have

Jeff: one left. Both have one left. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Which is gonna be tight, but I think, you know, one to kind of pivot from sort of a fun thing, but get in there, Bester was really trying to get the term normals across. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's to protect the privacy of the normals. I can't do this around the normals. Call 'em Normies, call 'em something, but you just call 'em normals. It just sounds like you're forcing it. Well,

Brent: okay. This for me is a little bit like part two of a bigger conversation that I think we have to have, which Jeff, maybe we just sort of move into that because we all know what happened.

Right. We don't have to recap what happened. So the, the idea that they bring up with an underground railroad immediately brings imagery of slavery. Mm-hmm. , because that is our history as a country here in America. That's where the term comes from. It's exactly where the term comes from. You, you bring up Underground Railroad, we now start thinking of his, uh, of slavery.

And I'm sitting here thinking, is there an insinuation here that telepaths are actually slaves? Hmm. Right. And does this have anything to do with why Talia is very wishy washy on the core? You know, and I was not alive back when slavery was still a thing here. I've seen movies, which I know were made not back then either , Right.

Um, but there there are times where you have portrayed a character who is a slave that kind of is on the side of his owners. Mm-hmm. and the, and the slave masters. Right. And like, he, like the slave is trying to get other slaves to comply and be like, Look, these guys, you know, look, we've got good clothes on.

I'm think there's a character in, in the film Roots. Mm-hmm. and the movie Roots, the the new one that, by the way, if you, no one's watched the new one that was made a couple years ago. They haven't seen that one. It's great. Really, It, it does everything that a, that a reboot re do should do. Oh wow. Um, and this particular character is played by Forest Whitaker.

Okay, but he, he is a guy who, he's trying to keep everybody else in line. Mm-hmm. . And while he clearly understands that he is a slave and doesn't like that aspect, there is still this loyalty and this attachment to his slave owners. Almost a brainwashing. Mm-hmm. effect. And that's where Talia really seems to be is cuz she's still very C core.

C core, C core. Like she can't get out of it. Like it's, it's, it's ingrained in her. Right. And they almost have to show her how, how slave like she is. But as a part of that idea, like if we, if we extend that metaphor, was JMS writing, Did he, did he set this up to be that, that kind of a, Hey, let's present this concept and this idea.

I don't know. It's certainly what I pulled out of it, just cuz of his own words. But the idea that everyone who is a telepath is not normal cuz everyone else is normal. You can call 'em normies if you want, but you call you actually, I think it's very specific. You don't call them normies because they're normal.

Jeff: They're just normal.

Brent: The people who aren't normal, those are the ones who get the names. Those are the ones who get put in boxes. Those are the ones who get put into, uh, concentration camps. Not concentration. Uh, what, what, what?

Jeff: Relocation, internment camp or relocation. They call them relocation. And then they went to, I think they went as far as to say, which aren't too far from concentration cam camps.


Brent: right. Um, like that idea that they're breeding in, like, just, just by use of the words normals, they're the normals. I, Gosh, Jeff, I need more Star Trek references.

Jeff: You got one man, , but

Brent: I gotta save it for later. Um,

Jeff: I have one also, but I, No, you gotta save your truck. I'm looking to six, I think. I think I need it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: But

Jeff: it. You know, for your delta, for your Delta discussion, it doesn't count. So you can use it in your Delta discussion. I That

Brent: is true. That is. Well, but I, I need like five more Wow. right now. Uh, because there's so many great examples of this through Star Trek. That's not a reference. Um,

Jeff: Well, I think I can help you out a little avoid Go ahead.

I think I can help you out because I, I went through the exact same thought exercise of mm-hmm. has Underground Railroad, the term just becomes such a kind of ubiquitous, Is it the Kleenex, you know, of a thing mm-hmm. where anything that's just moving people around quietly is Underground Railroad, or does it always carry those connotations of slavery with it?

Mm-hmm. and where I went was in the game, Fallout four, one of the factions is the railroad, and it's essentially an underground railroad. There's a, there are a group of synths that have been made to completely replicate what a human looks like. And there's a lot of stuff, Right. But their whole thing is finding the sense.

Liberating them, relocating them and letting them live their lives as just a, a human being, you know, go out and live their life. Totally pulls onto the connotations of slavery. I think the term Underground Railroad comes with slavery, period. I think it's, it's part and parcel, and I think what they're talking about here is they've created this weird paradigm where as a telepath you are elevated.

You're, you're better than the normals, but also you're ranked and you're tagged. You're a P one, you're a P five, you're a P 11. Once you're a P 12, now you're gonna be a cycop. Like they have this hierarchy within that really sets you up in a way that you're better than these other people. You're still just cattle though.

We're going to match you. We're gonna breed you, We're gonna control every aspect of your life and have a code of conduct that tells you you have to run this way for Talia. And I'm kind of jump, might be jumping on your point here so you can get back on, but for Talia there's a, I think two things happening for her.

One is conditioning, what I call boot camp conditioning. I'm gonna do the right thing, not because it's the right thing, but because I've been trained for so long that I will be punished if I don't do the right thing. Mm-hmm. and punishment and cyco can be a relocation camp, it can be the, the sleepers, it can be death, it can be things we probably haven't even been exposed to yet.

So she knows you don't stand up to Mother Cora's, Mother Cora's father. You don't stand up to core. Right. Cuz you, you're conditioned, but secondly, you talked about it last week. Well, I'm, I'm sorry,

Brent: Let me let back up. Yeah. Jump in. Like on that conditioning, imagine as a, as, as a, a person of color. I'm sorry.

As a telepath.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Right.

Brent: You are told and you are, you are made to live that your very existence is a threat. Sound familiar? A little bit. A lot. You can either, you can either submit to the core and then you can do what they tell you. Or you can get drugged up and lose yourself. Or you can run and hide.

Cuz we're gonna try to kill you if you don't. Does this sound familiar? You can comply, comply, comply. Or you're gonna die. Die. Die. Jeff, we start talking about things that speak to today. Yeah. This is a 30 year old show. Things that speak to today. Oh my gosh. And how and, and you. I mean, Yeah. Hey, we're gonna put you with you and let you guys breathe and Oh, if you're not gonna do it, guess what?

We're gonna put you to sleep and we're gonna do it anyway. Yeah, we're we're gonna, I now, I don't know if there's an insinuation. That it was, I caught that a rape situation or if it was a, an like artificial insemination, whatever, Like, like either way, either way you're, you're violating this person. Yeah.

Like bad in a not good way. Um, that is what you to what you're just

Jeff: talking about right now. Exactly. Yeah. This is gonna happen. So I will tow the line. When it comes to the core, and it's not even a conscious thought, you know, at some point that conditioning just becomes, it's a survival instinct. The trauma rewires your brain in a way that you're not even aware.

You're standing up for them. And I think that was the,

Brent: is is this similar situation to even like an abuser victim type relationship? A hundred percent. You stay in it cuz you can't get away from it. Well, cause you, and you try to, but your brain doesn't like let you, uh, but also you don't,

Jeff: you don't think you need to get away from it.

You know, because I mean, really, I deserve this, You know, I did the things and so, I mean, this is what's supposed to happen. I did the thing and so this happens, or

Brent: I am this, and so that's just how I'm, So

Jeff: that's just what it is. Yeah. I think that the scenes where the, the Rogue tele shared their experiences and their stories mm-hmm.

and the, and the, the filming of them was, so that whole sequence was so good. And then the placement of it, you had kind of the lead lurker guy in the background quite a bit doing that, you know, thing where like someone's sharing their story and he's, you know, he, he, he's carrying that affinitive empathy with them and just being like, Oh, yeah.

You know, holding his face and, you know, slicking his hair back. Like, Oh my gosh, I feel you, you know, and, and then came over, even in like, the one who found herself pregnant, he even like, you know, get, put his arms around her afterwards, you know, like mm-hmm. comforted her after sharing the trauma, but what that.

was oftentimes in those situations where you're so conditioned, you know, all these things are wrong, those things are saying in your brain and you need something that awakens them. And that's what that series of stories were. She didn't hear anything. She didn't know. There were no revelations for her, but it validated and gave context to, it was already in her brain where it finally connected the dots in a way that she's like, I can't, I can't anymore.

I wish, I wish this episode aired before soulmates because everything that happened with her Yeah. In there would've made more sense. Her wanting to leave Sycor, like that would've been a very natural, I think it still works. I feel like, uh, Stoner introduced some of these things and then this built on the things that, So she could go, but I feel like it would've been really smooth if they were

Brent: swapped.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. I don't know that I thought about having them swapped, but there was a piece, like I'm sitting here going as she's listening to these people talk. in the back of my head, and therefore in the back of Talia's head, she also has one of these stories. Yep. Cause she was matched to this dude and suppo they were supposed to breed, like that was, they put them together so that they could build a, a superior like Oh yeah, I've heard that story before.

Jeff: Right. They, and she knows Yvanova's mom died because of the sleepers. Mm-hmm. , you know, because of the drugs. So that, that, you know, the, the person sharing the story of his brother, who just one day he didn't wake up. All these are all awakening things that you and I have in our memory from the show. So she has as well.

But I think the other piece for this hits right back to what you talked about last week and what I put the label on of be, do, have, not only is she conditioned to not stand up to Cyco, but without Cyco. Mm-hmm. , what am I, I'm nothing without Cyco. She, she was in there when she was five. She has no identity.

So it's, it's. It is horrifying and terrifying and unimaginable. Mm-hmm. to not be cyco. Right.

Brent: Right. And she's gotta get, she's gotta get her, her mind out of that. Mm-hmm. Aldi has this line, and I wrote it down as best I could. I, I'm not gonna swear it's verbatim, but this is pretty good. He says this, The laws the law.

It's damn ironic, isn't it? The core got started cuz we were afraid of telepaths. Now they're the victims of our own fears. Then we took them and shoved them into a big black box called Site Core. Now look at 'em, wearing this, wearing that, giving orders and Sheridan says, if you ask me, we created our own monster and maybe we deserve it.

Jeff: Gu Baldy. I think in his statement he talked about black gloves and jack boots and black uniforms. He, that was, I feel like that was getting as close to a, to a Nazi comparison as you could without saying Nazi. Mm. And that's, you know, you wanna talk about eugenics, you wanna talk about perfect breeding, you wanna talk about better than the normals.

Mm-hmm. , I mean, there you go.


Brent: you go. Uh, and they're now taking over. So like, that's, that's, I think

Jeff: they, you know, so I don't think they are, I think they have because Fair enough. Absolutely fair. Yeah. Cuz here's the thing for me, and I think this would, to me, this is one of the biggest takeaways of the whole episode.

If that small, relatively small group of rogue tele can get together and hold hands and they can make bester believe that he just killed all these people and everything's cool and, and all, what could a group of a hundred. Or a thousand or more, do, could they impact a city, a planet, an entire government system?

Are people seeing an experience in a reality that's not even happening? And that's what they're reacting to right now. Is the president even dead? Oh, wow. He was really curious, right. What are, what, what are people saying? What uh, what's the, I mean, they all but said, Hey, we were tied to the assassination on there, but maybe it wasn't an assassination at all.


Brent: Oh, oh. I mean, but, but there's that idea. You, you put them into a box, uh, uh, internment camp, um, and they, and you do that to keep them separated because they'll become a problem. And, and if they do link up together, they'll rise up. And, and that could. Really, really bad, Jeff. If I could kind of even force us into that, into the next segment.

Cuz we're, we're right here on

Jeff: it really quick just because, I mean, and this is kind of a weird like jump and maybe I should have hit it earlier, but there are two really cool actor highlights that I wanted to pull out in here real fast. One, um, the lurker guy, Gian Loffler, doesn't have a lot of credits.

I got the impression listening to him that he was either hearing impaired or deaf. Right. He's not, is he? No. Okay. He's Swiss . Okay. It's just he's known for having a unique voice in delivery and I, I, I dunno, I thought that was very fascinating. Here's the big one though, that I thought was I super fascinating.

When Ster and the other Cycop are questioning the guy near the beginning and he pulls the infor, that other Cycop is played by Judy Levit. That's Walter K's wife. Oh, really? Yeah. And she, uh, she had bit parts in most of the original series, Star Trek movies also. So kind of a cool, like, Hey, we're, we're, uh, we're, they're together.

Together. Yeah. I thought that was neat. That's fun. But, uh, to wrap in, into, to move in, I just wanna touch on what we, what we know about Talia. Okay. Now, Right. Cause she Yeah. Let's recap it. Yeah. She's the future, right? And so we don't know what that means, but what we know, her telekinesis has gone to a whole new level, right?

She's got shields that can shield people herself from scans, whether it's just bester or other people not totally sure. And then, um, she clearly, her side level, her P level has raised because lurker dude was saying, You tipped the scales. You have something special here. Yeah. Sot is at a whole new level at this

Brent: point.

Yeah. Yeah. Talia is something we haven't seen yet. I mean, a step below whatever Ironheart was or, or maybe just something different altogether. Mm-hmm. , um, Talia is something, and she doesn't even really know what it is yet, because she apparently had those shields up and didn't even

Jeff: know it, didn't even know she actually made that comment.

You've been in my mind twice. How did you not see this? Exactly.

Brent: Yeah. And Cyco is literally searching for its people to continue. I that's probably something we don't need to lose track of. Jeff Cyco is breeding people to get a better Cycore rating, and they're not willing to let anyone slip through the cracks. Right? Yeah. Like, everybody's gotta come here. It's for national security, but that's not it.

They're actually

Jeff: trying to, They're the superhuman is what they're breeding and that's what they're trying to go

Brent: towards, right? Yeah. That's Ack . I mean, they, like, they've told us what the cy, what Cycore is up to, and that's what it.

Jeff: Yep. Trying to find the most powerful being possible in humanity. Right,

Brent: right.

So, oh, and, And by the way, with Talia, I just want her taking the symbolism of her taking off the Cyco badge huge. At the end of the episode is huge. Yeah. Like being able to set it down. Now we're gonna see her with that Cyco badge right back on her shirt tomorrow or next episode, whatever. But the idea that she could do that, Did you see how she

Jeff: paused?

Right. Like, first off, first huge kudos to Ivanova, where she's like, Got a problem with that. Like, you're cool, That's not cool. And then she was just like, Oh, pause. And then she'd like, Yeah, that two seconds was like, probably those two seconds took four hours in Talia's mind.

Brent: Mm-hmm. . Here's another question.

Speaking of a pause, Be's leaving, he turned, she's thinking out in her head. Does he know? Does he know? Does he know? And he stops and turns around and looks at her, and then he turns around and walks away. They don't answer that question for us. Does he

Jeff: know? I don't think he does. I think that was, I think that was, This is what I think it was actually.

And I don't know. I don't know what the sequence is, but dude, dude is legit with a PPG thing. Okay. Right. I mean, those assassins, boom, boom, he took him out with the 10, you know, the tele or whatever. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Mm-hmm. like he was nailing it. He's gonna know, and maybe he just did that math. He doesn't have 10 charges taken out of his ppg.

Like he's gonna know he didn't fire 10 times. We've seen that before. Ppg. Oh, it's kind of hot. Just fired. Oh, charge. Yeah, full. It's still got this in there. We know those are trackable things. Basters handy with it. I think that's what he paused about. Mm. Or maybe he's. Hey, did I just bump into a thing? Uh, maybe, maybe not.


Brent: Was, Wait, did she have something that I almost just caught? Uh, I'm not really, That's what I thought it was. I don't know that he knows as much as like he just sort of caught a whiff of something and was like, Is that, ah, he any, he went on with it. Um, well, it's like when, in the beginning, the thing though is that, I mean, that could come up one way or the other.

Like he could just realize it like, Wait a minute. When I got home

Jeff: it was still full. Yeah. How's this thing full? I, I I murdered 13 people in cold blood, You know, Or however, however many, Well, that's not true. He did it in self-defense. We'll give, I'll give credit. Right.

Brent: So where this comes down to me and I, and I mentioned earlier, the, the alo and b plot really dovetailing in with each other.

We have this whole idea of the telepaths, they're being separated out. We're gonna put 'em into a box. That box is cy core. We're gonna brainwash 'em, we're gonna make them wear gloves. That was huge. They took off their gloves and linked hands, right? We're gonna make them wear gloves. We're gonna keep everybody separated.

We're gonna put this wall up between them and all the normals. We're gonna call them normals. And everybody else over here is weird. And they come to the end and they realize that if they take the gloves off and join hands, they can accomplish something that they could never accomplish individually.

Holy cow. Juxtapose the, the fight that they had to get through to figure that out. Right. And honestly, the ongoing fight that Teles are gonna have to continue to live with from, from here on out. Cause this is just this little tiny group of people. Right. Juxtapose that to what's going on with Dylan and she.

Here you have two people who were fighting against each other in a war, but, and specifically with Sheridan, he was, you know, Sinclair rewritten on the frontline. Mm-hmm. , right? Um, and he's out on this date with a mbar, and I don't know that he knows in the moment that it's a date, but that's clearly what it was.

And one of those two enemies, you have two enemies out together having a meal. One of those enemies is, they're specifically trying to be a bridge. She says, If I'm to be a bridge between our people's, I have to know here and know what's going on.

The answer is go out and talk. Let's go talk, not about work. Let's just go be together, connect and talk, connect. It certainly looks like it's going down the romantic side. It might not. It really could just be a, a very professional garabaldi of Vava kind of a, a relationship. Ultimately, it kind of has, doesn't have that feel to me though, and she ends it with this line.

It appears we have much more in common than we could have ever imagined. I even like where she says, No race can truly be intelligent without laughter. Yeah. And she spent a full year in temple learning to laugh, which as a comedian, I love that, but the answer is to go talk. Whereas what we see with the side core people is they're building a wall and they're separating people away by the tele.

Taking off those gloves, which is symbolic and linking hands, also symbolic and joining forces, which was not even really symbolic, That was just really direct. You joined your forces together again. They could do something that they never, uh, could have done on their own. And I find those two ideas, one very willing in just laying it out there.

And the other is kind of being forced into it when they're not even supposed to do that. Like those are two really cool side by side storylines that seemingly have absolutely nothing to do with each other. And huge on the Star Trek message in both of those ways.

Jeff: Yeah. I kind of felt like you were just gonna do your Delta rating right there.

You were. I was into it.

Brent: I, Hey YouTube, I didn't have my notes pulled up. I was looking over to see where we are in the show, in the notes and who's supposed to do which one at which point, Cuz I never remember which one's which. Uh, so Jeff, with that, uh, let's officially just boil it down. Yeah. I'm already there.

Let's, you did, let's just go. I just talked about how Star Treky this episode really is. I talked about the deep moral message that's in it. I talked about holding up a mirror to society because this is still relevant today, and does it give us hope that we can be better in the future? I think the, if nothing else, the date between Delin and Sheridan definitely gives us that hope.

If you just go talk, let's go together. It doesn't have to be a date, but just go talk and find out about your fellow person, right? You'll find out that you have a lot more in common than you never did before. Jeff. This is a five Delta Star Trek episode through and through. It would not surprise me if, if, uh, DC Fontana herself wrote this episode, or David Gerald, I went, wouldn't surprise me at

Jeff: all on my second.

Didn't show on my second watch through. I specifically watched for that cause I'm like, There's no way like this. They pulled in big guns for this. No, JMS wrote this in this. This should be a a, a jewel in his crown. Yeah. Because, yeah. So well done. I think the other piece, the other star treky thing in this, that wasn't done as well mm-hmm.

as, as what you talked about, but I think Franklin introduced a really good Star Trek message, and that is that just because a law is a law Yeah. Doesn't mean you blindly follow that law. Now, could he have there, are there other routes that could have been taken and all that great stuff? Absolutely. But when a, when a, when a law steal your words is morally reprehensible.

Mm-hmm. , you stand up against that law. Right. Right. You fight, you do something about that. And Franklin was, his thing happened to be underground and putting himself in the station at hubris. I loved how Sheridan handled it. Mm-hmm. we're done. Right. This thing's done. Cool. You do it again. I will lock you up and lead you to the gallows.

also, he had said something too when he says, You know, I don't disagree with you. You were, you know, did I do the wrong thing? No, I'm not saying that. In fact, I'm not saying what I'm saying. I'm not thinking what I'm thinking. I don't, because there's no way to put that into words, you know, that that's, it's necessarily that makes sense.

But when something ain't right, you call it is ain't right. Right. And that's, that's the message that I think shown through for me. There you go. We've talked this whole episode about how awesome it is and how much fun it is, and how well put together it was. I don't need to give a whole diet drive and say it again.

This, this is a five star theory episode. I enjoyed this episode. It was perfectly crafted. The acting was incredible. Everything about this episode is fantastic. This, this, I, I hope you don't give anything away, but you can tell us on Twitter or, or in the, in the comments below, Is this one of the Babylon five episodes?

That are out there like balon squared, that's one the people said this is, this is one of the, Is this one of those? Cuz it sures. Heck should be this is feels like it. So well done.

Brent: Yeah, it absolutely. And I 100% agree with you on your Star series. This was a great episode. I'd watch this time, Jeff, here in season two we're doing something we didn't do in season one.

We are ranking these episodes and by the time we're done with this, we are gonna have the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon five, season two. Jeff, our current ranking sits at least the top five. We have soulmates at number one, points of departure at number two, a spider in the web, geometry, shadows, revelations is rounding out the top five.

Where do you place. Erase through the dark places.

Jeff: You, I really gotta think about this one for a while. I mean, it's pretty tough. And this is the number one, This is the number one episode of season two so far. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. That's gonna push Revelations out of the top five.

Jeff: Think I'm, Which is okay? Yeah, I think there's still a couple in the top five.

I'm okay not being in the top five when we get to the, And this Will Brent, that's it for a Race Through Dark Places. Next week we're gonna be watching the Coming of Shadows for the very first time. Yeah. So we don't watch this ahead of time. We don't look at anything. Brent just uses his telepathic powers to figure out what's up.

But one of the games we like to play is, Guess what the next episode is gonna be based on the title alone. So you've just heard it. Brent, what do you think the the namesake for season two is gonna

Brent: be about? Yeah, I was just gonna ask you, didn't you tell me that they kind of titled the whole of season two, The Coming of Shadows?

Yeah. And here we are. And this is that episode. . So you, you did say to me that the episode for the next week is a little bon boning on the head. Like it sort of gives the whole thing away. So I'm gonna go with whatever the shadow is, whatever that organization is, or whatever it, whatever they are. Um, this is where they're gonna bust on the scene and everybody knows who they are, right?

Yeah. Like they're, they're full force. Here's the dominion. This is them right there, and they're now something you gotta reckon with. That's the episode.

Jeff: That's what, that's what it's gonna be. But I, I want, I wanna be that guy. I wouldn't be that guy who's like, No, no. So my theory is that there are big S shadows, like the ones in the ships and out there at Zaha Doom and all that.

And then there's little s, shadows, the little things that go on all around. We just spent what, two episodes looking at the shadows that are coming looming over Earth and Mars and humanity. We've looked at the shadows that are looming over the centar, right? With the emperor not having an air and all that kind of stuff.

So I think this next one, it's gonna be a Orlando in Kar episode and I'm saying that in a very self-serving way. I love this episode, but I felt, I felt their absence. So I think this is gonna be the one, cuz like the little thing we've heard dropped a couple of times is Kar is all in on this book of Jaqua and the shadows and all this stuff.

His government is not, they basically told him to shut up and stuff it. So I think there's gonna be a rift. Between Jaar and, and his government. And this is gonna start showing the shadows that loom over the narn. Um, what is it, the Narn regime to, to bring them in. So everybody, you know, like everybody else, they've got problems going on.

We'll see. We're gonna find out right here next week on Babylon five for the first time. Thank you all so much for joining us. If you haven't already pleased, wherever you're listening to us or if you're watching us on YouTube and you haven't already, go ahead and subscribe and please leave us a rating.

Leave us a review. I love reading those here on, on the podcast itself. So, Brent, until next time, I had all

Brent: them little then, um,

Jeff: little then until next

Brent: May. Had until next

Jeff: time. Um,

Brent: lease was wise. As snow,

Jeff: peace and, um, Okay. Uh, peace and long life. Everybody.