A Spider in the Web | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once it'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do you ever play the video game mass effect this is where babylon 5 is becoming babylon 5, that was great i love that 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of babylon i love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it jack, the year is 2025 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time.

[0:34] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters and then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed now we're watching it for the second time catching all those things that there's no possible way we could have known the first time around but we are doing the thing that we do jeff we are still searching for these sci-fi messages jeff this is something that we do so much and it's so ingrained in who we are i can't help doing this when i'm on other shows.

[1:11] Right or i'm doing other things that have nothing to do with this jeff i went to this movie and i can't believe it it had this message in it you have to go literally was a text message i sent you not too long i was like we're going to see it talk about it because it's so good but that's what we're doing we're still doing that you know who knows maybe the messages we find this time will be exactly what we found last time maybe it'll be something new i don't know we'll find out the main thing jeff we're asking what these episodes are trying to tell us you know what i'm trying to tell everybody else though from this point forward this show is full of spoilers yep i want that loud and clear i want everybody who's listening to know from this point forward anything from any point in the franchise any timeline any series extra source pure source original source whatever memory alpha memory beta whatever it's all fair game for jeff and i to use probably not use a lot out of memory alpha i don't think maybe not male it's memory beta i think is really where it all comes from.

[2:13] Sorry sorry if you guys don't know what those are go look them up um it's a joke it was a joke people it was a joke um and it was it's it'll be funny if you get it right if you get it it's great uh but yes this is a spoiler filled thing if you are watching this show for the first time we beg you please stop listening to us right now go back catch us on our first watch when we did this exact same episode that was completely spoiler free do that get through the series and then catch back up with us when you do your own second watch. This week, Brent, we're watching the episode called A Spider in the Web. When we watch this one the first time, I actually don't remember much about this one at all. I remember Cyber Zombies. I remember Abel Horn, who was in Xanadu.

[2:57] And I think this is the Bureau 13 San Diego one. But I honestly don't remember a lot about how I felt about it or anything else. Do you remember much about what you thought on this one? i want to read my note exactly as i wrote it it's been a while since i've read my note exactly as i wrote it but here it is i couldn't tell you what this episode was about at all i remember nothing now you say san diego i remember that you say abel horn and i go hmm sounds familiar i'm sure if you were to give me a few other cues i'd be like oh yeah it's that one but just i don't remember this episode at all nothing i got nothing for you yeah it's kind of how i felt if it's the one about the san diego and the dude with the what i still i still didn't even remember how i felt about the the biggest thing i remember is oh there's the san diego thing and it never comes back up again i know why.

[3:49] I know it has to do with copyright issues and we were going to go somewhere with it, but then something happened. We're like, yeah, we're just going to take that out because we're not going to deal with that. Like, I get it, but I, I couldn't tell you anything. Here's, here's what I will say. This is first half of season two and generally speaking, it's not true for every single episode, but generally speaking, first half of season two is kind of, right.

[4:10] And so I'm just, it's going to be under that blanket for me right now. Well, but I went back and listened to our, for the first time podcast. Yeah. What did I think the first time around? Brent said, what did you think the first time around? Well, you said, and I quote, oh yeah, this is the episode I needed last week. You said it's probably not a great episode, but it's good. And it really marks the growth of the show. Fair. I don't know why that's fair, but fair. It's good. We could have done without creepy Franklin. Yeah, that would have been fine. Skip over. Yeah. I just said, uh, what a breath of fresh air this episode was. One of the cool things that happened in this episode, one of our really good friends who's been around the community now for a very long time, Alyssa, uh, we, hi Alyssa, Alyssa, we shared one of their posts on the, from Twitter. And, uh, that's what kind of started us asking for people's Babylon five origin stories. Oh, okay. It all started here. Yeah. Hey, by the way, if we have any new listeners, send us your Babylon five origin story. Love, love them. Yeah. In a, And speaking of our interactions with people, I, I apologize to a listener named Matthew.

[5:23] I apparently went at him pretty hard for attacking DS nine for ripping off B five. So I apologized after hearing the whole Bureau 13 thing saying that, uh, yeah, it is a blatant rip off or at best inspired by Babylon five. So I went on the record there. There's a, there's these components, but is it though? Is it though? We interrogated this exhaustively already in our series wrap up. Okay. It's inspired by. Okay. And the industrial complex. Okay.

[5:58] There are these 13 components that get mentioned in this episode, and you became hyper-focused. And this hyper-focus, if I remember right, continued for about two and a half more seasons. As it should, because when you set something up like this, it's got to – also.

[6:13] I mean, I watched Battlestar Galactica, where it was like, I need to know who the 13 human Cylons are. And we're looking for them it wasn't 13 was five the final five is what you're thinking no but there was a total number was the total number i don't remember the total number but the whole like who are they thing were the final five that was the big deal right you watched all along the watchtower to find out it's funny you mentioned that because you thought the 13 components were space zombies and wondered if this was going to turn babylon 5 into a battle star galactic asylum thing there you go and then you had a theory that garibaldi when he was down and out got space zombied like he was programmed with something almost as if he was programmed with something just waiting to go off at the right time okay now we know wait did i predict what happens to garibaldi later on you did no no different no but but because the brainwashing garibaldi doesn't happen until he goes on his secret mission that never happened yeah so i'm saying you'd predicted it but at the wrong time okay okay okay because if you told me that it happened here what or then i'd be whoa but okay all right so i so that that that jeff is an example of what happens when you and i go back in time and we talk to jms and he's like not a bad idea guys and then he takes it and uses it later just not when we told him to yeah and he literally told us yeah i'm not gonna use that guys i don't i'm not gonna use that one and then he did because It was a great idea. So waiting on that check, Jay, still waiting on that tech one day.

[7:43] Our over in our council chambers chat, the council chambers tier subscribers are invited to our recordings and in there, we learn right there. Uh, we're 12 human Cylons. I see that. Thank you, Dylan. Thank you so much. We got, that makes me feel better. Cause it was, it was stirring in the back of my head. It's right in there somewhere. It's like, come on. We were very confused and I got very frustrated.

[8:05] About talia and psych or like so jace the whole jason ironheart thing happened and then in legacies all of a sudden for some reason she's 100 pro psych or again like oh no we got to take her back to psych or we figured that she's just this one-dimensional character yeah nothing is changing her at all things happen around her and she just remains psych or loyalist even when it's like rubbed in her face gotcha last thing i pulled out was i talked about how anti-ship i am right we've talked about that here quite a bit i i have no patience for shipping in in any any medium whatsoever which i know says a lot about me you mean you mean like like when you when when character.

[8:45] A is sitting next to character b at another console directly across from it and then they look at each other at a moment when the ship is crashing and now all of a sudden they're in love yeah like maybe they're just co-workers who are like oh my gosh we might die right here uh-huh who work closely together and for a long time why can't a captain and her first officer just be professionals that work well together and have respect and friendship why can't we have that i they absolutely can and in the case that you're referencing here they absolutely should have been together as a couple absolutely and i'm glad that they were later fixed to be in a relationship they did the whole time yeah they fixed it it's yeah they did i uh i did however totally ship garibaldi and talia i felt that in this episode it became fully earned and it made sense because you at this point were still very pro garibaldi and ivanova and i was like that can't happen they're co-workers it couldn't happen but but with talia not even in the chain of command not even working for the same enterprise that's what i got out of my podcast listen i was telling you just before we went on mic i didn't say anything else but like i had one impression of like oh no we loved this episode we loved it well you know what even if it's not really that strong of an episode compared to what we've seen here over the last couple of weeks this is a great episode.

[10:05] I really hope in watching this episode today jeff that actually this really is a great episode i really hope it is i would love that i just don't remember it i don't really remember it that much either i'm with you did so i i listened to the podcast you went and scoured the world for any nuggets that jms has shared with us on this one what did what did you get not a lot no no no not one that's talked about very much uh he does talk about the nuking of san diego he says having lived in san diego from 74 to 81 um this was just his way of giving a wink to the old hometown you know um uh let's see i can save that one for the episode uh who's abby who is abby Who's Abby? I don't know. Okay. So he talks about a local in-house joke about a character named Abby. Okay.

[10:55] And we're gonna have to look to see who she is and when we find her i will then tell you what said joke is okay um and then he also clarifies for us what garibaldi's third favorite thing is oh yeah okay okay but once again i'm gonna wait till we hit that part of the episode before i discover it that's all i got jeff there really is not a ton on this episode really not at all so that being said jeff why don't we go watch an episode let's do it let's watch this episode for those of you joining us for the very first time, hello, welcome to our web. Now you're going to get tangled within it. What happens next is if you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see the little episode pop up. We're going to watch the episode here in real time. It's going to get chopped up reaction style as, uh, as things on YouTube do, but Brent and I didn't watch this one before. It's been what? Probably who I'm going, I'm going with, we're two years away from our original view. Yeah. About two years out of these episodes. Yeah. Been a long time. So we're going to watch it again here for the second, first time, first, second time, whatever. Uh, if you want to see the full version of this though, and not on, that's not on YouTube, we do have that over on our Patreon page. It's at patreon.com slash Babylon five. First that's number five, the word first, there should be a link down in the show notes. And if you're listening to us on a podcasting app, you're listening to the audio anywhere out there.

[12:16] Um, hi, it's good to hear you or it's good to see you. Good to, good to know that you're there. Actually, I think is probably what it is hey listen you know what you guys are gonna get literally the exact same thing that our video watchers are gonna get you're gonna catch the reaction we're gonna have it in there because we want you guys to know exactly what's going on as far as that conversation goes and then after that stick around because again we'll have all of our conversation about any messages we might have found anything like that coming in how is this how is this episode gonna look jeff this time around in the context of sleeping in light yeah and everything else like not just sleeping like in the context of the greater story that's what we're really looking for so jeff, let's go watch an episode accessing file six yard wood chairs place precisely one meter apart please tell me this is not the avon of uh jumping around avoiding having sex with the ambassador somewhere it's not that's not this one thank you it's down the road a bit.

[13:14] Help is on the way i i love that avon is just taking like she's the new yeah She's the new commander. I got this. I got it. Yeah. He's just kicking back like, all right, go. Take care of it. It is interesting, though, like from a leadership standpoint, he is telling Ivanova to go tell Kepher what to do with his wings.

[13:35] You had a really hard time with this guy's name through the podcast. Sogi-san? Yeah, you could call him a Sogi. Future Corp has to expand beyond Earth, and Mars is the first step. Future Corp that had to have been a placeholder, like in a script, and they forgot to update it. Now we need only to convince Mars to share the risk. Do we ever hear about Future Corp again? No, I don't think so. They will be drenched with innocent blood, and a long-held dream of mine will die. Oh, this lady. Amanda Carter, Mars Colony Business Affairs Committee. As in, one of the finest commercial tell pass. Amanda, Major Sam Carter Tapping. She will be monitoring our negotiations for Future Corp. Ms. Winters. When we watched this the first time, we laughed quite a bit that this negotiation between Earth and Mars had to go all the way to Babylon 5 to talk about. I mean, it's a neutral ground, but it's like, hey, there's no other neutral grounds that aren't like three jump gates away. Right. You're either insane or a very brave man. Why not both? I can't imagine that's what they said of your great-grandfather John when he volunteered to pilot the first colony ship to Mars. Oh, he knows his people. Right, uh-huh, did his research.

[14:44] The four bulkheads, fine, Neo. San Diego Ways. Physical model. JMS confirms that is a physical model. There's President Clark up there. There we go. John Carter of Mars. Good call, Neo. All components have arrived safely on Babylon 5. Control is prepared to go online. Commence operation.

[15:06] I need to have that conversation with J. Michael Straczynski. What would this have done? The control one? Yeah. The control, what are the various components? How does that... If you could have played that out, what would that have done?

[15:24] Yeah and this is where you would think they were all human components but they're very intentionally making sure we see that ring absolutely well that's how we know it's the.

[15:35] In this, we placed Discovery and a Star Trek Discovery and Babylon 5 in the same universe. Because chronologically, the control that they fought in season two of Discovery lined up with when chronologically control showed up here. So, same thing. They're both of the things. I read somewhere that there is no actual answer to what control was supposed to be. The working theory is that it was evil Talia. There's a whole thing going on there, but there's, from what I understand, nothing actually supports that. There's different theories out there. That's one of the reasons why I suggested Babylon 5 for this meeting. All our prospective partners have representatives here. We can iron out all the details to your government satisfaction. This Ahsoka guy seems like totally legit. No, I believe we can try. I like him. I sure hope nothing bad happens to him in this episode. I'll speak with the Business Affairs Committee. Why would there be? I think I can have an answer for you by tomorrow afternoon. Very good. She's so positive. Great. Mars can be the beginning of a whole new life for the human species, as it was meant to be. Free Mars. No! Hey, wait, I thought you said nothing bad was going to happen to this guy. I said I hoped nothing. He's such a great guy.

[16:58] Come on, pain. Pain. We saw his pain. He just got slave glove to death you have no idea what the images you got from the killer meant I'm also tired and I hurt may I go back to my quarters now I'll arrange for an escort one escort at your service he was waiting the whole time he's like oh my god, he's just sliding in there man your body rolls in and he's like what's up, captain's orders got no choice besides this gives us a chance to get to know each other better Mr. Garibaldi, Taro Isugi was like a father to me, and now he's dead. I got something that's going to make you feel a whole lot better. You forgive me if I'm not in mood for your usual badinage. Just cry right here. You're right. It's a bad time for you. I'm being a yotz. Apology accepted. Maybe you just need a hug. Could you at least tell me what badinage means?

[17:56] Yeah, see, it's a game. Even when she's grieving. I'm eating pills for what ails you. He was right you got a lot more pills we'll get the creep who did this I promise that won't bring Taro back or his dreams from Mars colony yeah Dunderdoll in the chat makes such a great point we talked about the first time, conflict of interest anybody like possibly the worst commercial telepath to hire for this, I think the killer wanted a witness. Tell me, what do you think of her? Miss Winters? Oh, I'm all ears. Think she's an interesting person. You never describe anybody that way. I mean, I don't really know her that well. I mean, we've chatted from time to time, and she's interesting. Cute. She's cute. You know how I feel about telepaths. Do I ever. Threw one out of a third-story window on IELTS. See, I still don't think there's anything between Ivanova and Talia right now. I think it was totally seated right here. Nope, not at all. you've never described anyone like that before let me shine a light on the fact you're using a word you never used to describe somebody and then have her deflect anything no there's nothing here no because because she doesn't like the tell it's the telepath thing and she's interesting but there's also this conflicted like i did have a conversation or two with her and turns out i kind of liked her not in that way she was i kind of liked her and she hate her she's interesting.

[19:17] You say you never so weird that you're using a unique descriptor for her, so Claudia Christian talks about this in her autobiography she does yeah and you remember what she says this was her one condition for her having a relationship which was what did it be with a woman no that is not what she said no no that is not what she said what did she say no she they wanted to to, uh, they were, they were talking about something and I don't remember if it was, they were going to make her in love with an alien or just, Oh, they were going to bring like some dude in. Yeah.

[19:54] And she was like, no, I'm not going to be with a dude. It's either gonna be like an alien or a girl. Like she, it was an offhanded comment. And she, she says in her commentary about the story, it's amazing how I just ought to, I flippantly said something and he took it and turned it into something because it was, it was not, she wasn't saying I'm only going to do it if it's this and being really serious about that she was saying it's i've just i'm not interested in this character having this type of a relationship at all and she just sort of like half heartedly threw something out there as a i'm not gonna do this and he took it and ran with it and took a little spot so that's actually why she left at the end of season four because they were prepping talking about season five and he brought up the byron thing and she's like no i'm too good to be a part of that i'm out look i will tell you okay so well okay first of all all.

[20:45] Right let's do the timeline here okay talia leaves end of this season right divided loyalties is the episode i think but it's the end of season like it's around the end of season two it's not the end but it's like around the end of season two like it's here like we're we're close okay so in theory that conversation between claudia and joe could have already happened oh yeah and joe could be and i don't think joe wrote this episode i think this was a detilio episode but still joe could be putting it in there so i'm gonna give you a it's plausible that's very generous this could have been a seated thing now at this point maybe maybe 100 i will give you that everything before is that's people buy it oh oh look at that this thing this is obvious this is so obvious that there's something maybe i will i will give you a maybe but i would personally lean towards not not yet, Not yet. I don't think it's in their conscious just yet, but it's plausible. And if anyone else out there has some definitive JMS, Larry Dottilio, Claudia Christian, Andrea Winters, no, Talia Winters, Andrea Thompson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[22:00] Somebody in an interview saying, this is when they started putting it in there and this is where it happens. Then I will gladly receive that information. If you can find that somewhere out there for me, I will take that information, but my guess is not yet, but I will say it is at least plausible. They could be tinkering with that idea because Claudia and Joe could have already had that conversation. I will give you this. This is the, she doesn't know that she's head over heels for Talia yet. She just knows that she's interested in her. Hmm. I don't know. There's something there. I don't know. Listen, if, but if you're, you're looking at this through the eyes of knowing where they end up as a couple okay i'm looking at this through the eyes of where does the actor and where do the writers think this like what are they thinking right now in this moment as they're filming and writing this particular episode okay i'm gonna try and rewind this i want you to watch her eyes okay as she says this okay okay tell you winters was she hurt look at that immediate i think the killer wanted a witness i mean i don't really know her that well i mean we've chatted from time to time looking over the side interesting and now deflect you know how i feel about telepaths do i ever threw one out of a third story window on aisle there was an ample pool below the window i'll assume you knew that aside from his interesting quality that's great isn't it that's so good.

[23:28] Okay i'll assume you knew that nia's like the look was only because she was trying to find the cue card maybe i plausible that is as best as i'm going to give you right now until there's, there's proof from people involved that that's what they were leaning towards right here but i will tell you much better than that was when sheridan says you threw a telepath out of a third floor window and she's like there was a big pool down there and he says i'm going to assume that you knew that before time and she looks to the side and goes that was intentional and that was hilarious she's very loyal to psycor and you don't trust psycor no do you see no little glances she's that i do not telepaths are gifted and cursed in ways i can never hope to understand they're still human beings good bad or indifferent.

[24:24] I trust in individuals, not organizations. And you may trust Ms. Winters. See that? See, but I would also say that that is a person in Ivanova who has had her conflict with Talia, has also had a come-to-Jesus moment with her. And while she doesn't understand Talia, she knows that Talia is incredibly low to the sidecore, and she is not in any way, Ivanova is not in any way, shape, or form on that train at all. She can, she feels like she can still trust Talia. I want to say something at this point, if I can kind of change the topic. Yeah. I was about to correct one thing. This is Babylon five. They call it a come to Sheridan moment.

[25:08] Okay. Jeff, you and I, you and I, we, we have a lot of lovely trans people in our community here. So I'm going to say this and to all of our friends out there, I want you to hear, I am not comparing the exact words here okay i'm really comparing the sentiment because in no way shape or form am i saying you're cursed okay but sheridan's line right there talking about telepaths people who are not like him right people who he is in a community of other people around him who are like i telepaths bad telepaths bad telepaths whatever and he and his responses is okay let's change the word he says they're cursed in a way that we couldn't even begin to understand.

[25:56] Right? Hey, that person is different in a way that frankly, I can't even begin to understand cause I'm not, that's, it's just not me. That's, that's not who I am. You know?

[26:05] Um, I can remember when I was kind of going through my waking timeframe phase, and I think I still am in many ways, but you know, in talking with people around me who were just like, oh, those people are crazy. No, that's gross. And all that's whatever, whatever I like, like regardless of anything, right and we can have that conversation whether it is or not but regardless of anything they are still people and they are still human and they are still deserving of our love our respect our honor for who they are and you know what i can stand on that regardless of background regardless of religious belief regardless of culture regardless of where i'm raised i can stand on the fact that person right there is a human being. They are sucking breath. If I are a religious person, they are made in the image of the creator himself. And I can love, honor, respect, and cherish that in that person. And there is no room for bigotry on this bridge. Right. And we're not going to let it, and we're not going to tolerate it at all. I love that word. Again, please do not hear me and say that I'm saying trans folks are cursed or people who are not like me are cursed. I'm not saying that. It's just, there's a difference here. That's all I'm, that's all I'm comparing. And Dylan in the chat says it very well. We are sadly cursed by the era we find ourselves living in where we're apparently destroying society.

[27:31] Yeah. I really quick, I think I might've shared the story before, but to your point of like, I have a great, good, great friend at work, professional friend, Anthony, and I hired Anthony before he transitioned. And then I went off and did other things in my career. And then we came back and met him again. And because I'm, you know, I'm total just cis hetero dude. I felt that I was compelled. I had to feel like I had to say something. Right. Right. And we were in some meeting and he's getting ready to go. And I'm like, Hey, Anthony, uh, it's just really great to see you happy. And he sat down and he's like, yeah, we haven't really talked about this, have we? And he just became an open book. He's like, what do you want to know? And I learned some things that like I'm still wrestling with. I'm like, wow. But when he got done, I just stopped. I'm just like, I feel so happy for you. I don't understand it.

[28:21] At all, but I'm super happy for you. And he said, this thing was so powerful. He's like, well, of course you don't understand it. If you did, you would be trans. There's no way I can ever like understand that experience, you know? And him saying that to me was just such a moment where it's like, yeah, I don't even have to understand it. I just have to, like you said, here's a human. It's actually super cool and incredible, all sorts of things. How about I Hey, let's, let's take this into another, into another thing. That person was born in another country. They're still a human and they're still deserving of love, honor, and respect. Hey, that person has a different skin color than me. That person's still human. And that person's still deserving of love, honor, and respect. Hey, that person has a different fill in the blank. That's still a person. They're still deserving of love, honor, and respect. That person, here's where I'm going to go stretch. That person has a different ideology than I do. And through the expression of their ideology is hurting people. They're still human. That humanity is still worthy of dignity and respect. Okay. So then go back to what Ivanova just said about Talia. Listen, she's loyal to that over there. I don't get it. I don't understand it. I am against that, but I know Talia. I can trust Talia. That even like rings with Londo and Jakar.

[29:37] Londo, our people, our people will never be able to forgive each other, but I can forgive you. Yeah. It's all about one-on-one. And Katerina says here, well, that's the whole B5 message. There it is.

[29:52] The killer said, free Mars. Free Mars? No, that can't be. There's no way they could have known about this meeting. And even if they did, they had nothing to gain by killing Mr. Asogi. Right. Taro was working to achieve a peaceful compromise that would ensure the colony's independence without bloodshed. Somebody obviously didn't like it. I think it's real funny they keep mispronouncing his name. It's written right there.

[30:22] Who's the Mars conglomerate? I think we have heard of that before. You're right. Babylon 5 is the best hope. Last best hope, actually. Keep an escort on Ms. Winters and intensify the search Include Earth, Gov, and Corp secure areas Will do, Captain I love they keep pronouncing the P in Corp I know, right? I'd sure like to know where you're going with this, The place is very dark. I hope to God I'm wrong. We're going to hurry. We're going to take a race through dark places. Okay, so here's a question. What is different about what's happening now that Sheridan feels compelled to handle this himself rather than give this to Ivana but to take care of? That's a good question. Well, what we do know is Sheridan has ties back to Mars and the food riots.

[31:10] So one could assume there's a personal stake maybe, but we don't know that about him at this point. So yeah. I wonder if this is a storyline that was written for Sinclair. Initially that's why they're putting it all onto sheridan to go go go go go maybe maybe i mean, also it's more than just the operations of the station stuff has happened and this expands beyond just what's happening on the station it expands to earth mars yeah interstellar stuff so maybe that really does fall more under sheridan's purview than than what a von of us would be and had the senator directly reaching out saying go do this thing so it's like oh this is a this is a very put sheridan could re could have put that up back on a bonova too yeah it's true you know so although compare what he's doing now with him earlier being like it's good to be the captain right i can let them go do it now he's got to be the one doing stuff also they had to justify bruce box lightener's paycheck for this episode exactly yeah hey erther Hey, Urther!

[32:16] I love this. I love the scream. When he throws him over the thing.

[32:26] Got some really bad timing on the pauses there. Yeah. Help! Help me, somebody! What have they done to me? Jacked you up, dude.

[32:44] So do I, but there's a problem. According to Earth Force Intelligence, Abelhorn is dead. A cruiser scragged his ship over Phobos during the rebellion. There it is. Oh, my God. Amanda, it's been a long time. He's supposed to be a zombie. Why is he all getting like damn near? Truffy with her. Earthers blew me up over Phobos. Your old buddy Singer found me, got me out. A snakehead doc fixed me up. I've been hiding in the Tigris sector ever since. Who are the snakehead docs? What's a snakehead? They were in TKO. They mentioned snakeheads, I think. Or I'm thinking of Stargate. I was going to say, we know what that is in Stargate. Who are the snakeheads? The Minbari? Nia says the Minbari. I don't remember them being called snakeheads. But maybe. Maybe, yeah. Okay. Then I got word you were coming here. Why did you kill Taro Asogi? Who? The man I came here to meet. They say you killed him. There's a fugitive alert out for you. They're lying. I haven't killed anyone. I came here to see you. I have to get back. Is that really his voice? They're crying. They're lying. I came here to see you. I am finally in a position to help with Mars independence. When he was dead. That I would make sense.

[33:58] That's a threat. Let me show you. Abel, what's wrong? Abel! Amanda, please have to help me! Help me! Did something to me? Telepath knows. Talia Winters. I'm sorry. I just can't. I can't right now. How do you act this though i don't know right i don't know you okay brent allen And you are an experienced stage director. Uh-huh. The scene is someone has an implanted personality trying to take over. Yeah. Direct. Yeah, we'll fix it in post. Don't worry. Just do something. We'll fix it in post. It's it's. I just have to say that to think that I described this episode as a breath of fresh air. Well, in light of everything else going on, it's very sobering in light of everything else going on. Although I have a thought. Okay. Okay. You know, they scrapped the Bureau 13 thing.

[35:10] Okay. But we see he pulls off that hand. He's got the sort of electric glove on he's got the luke skywalker hand going right right and he's got this this mental thing i wonder if we actually didn't see bureau 13 again later in the show yeah just under a different name or no name go forward what was bester's girlfriend's name oh yeah carolyn carolyn carolyn sand isn't isn't this basically what they were doing with dead telepaths or or whatever isn't this what they did with anna sheridan um i know they didn't do it with morden morden was still fully alive and whatever but isn't this what the shadows were doing when they were taking dead people and turning them into the their cpus for their ships pretty much for organic tech like this is earth's first step towards organic tech right maybe and this and and this is that psycor is taking that step that's bureau 13 they're moving these things towards that what we eventually saw with carolyn sanders i think that was her name yeah did i get that right that what we saw there that that's actually not what like this is the precursor to that.

[36:16] We just had to scrap the name because it didn't or what's parallel because what happened to carolyn and the shadows did all that it wasn't earth doing that to them but it was earth taking dead people or whatever and turning it in i mean and that's what i mean like so they scrapped this whole this whole story thread and they kind of pull back on it so they can you know jamis can change it as he needs to, to serve the story then.

[36:40] But this certainly feels like it could have served as the.

[36:44] I precursor to that. I think it's more because Garibaldi said he mentioned, Oh, it must be like a prosthetic weapon or something like that. So the thing with a hand or whatever, anyone could have that. That's just what they outfitted him with. Maybe in the explosion, he lost his hand. I think though, I think what this is all about is just informing us that we can implant a different personality into someone. Oh, and there's some interchangeability between the two. Like it's not necessarily the other. We established back in the quality of mercy that you can do death of personality. Right. in this we're establishing that personality isn't so dead and then in passing through gethsemane we learned that it can it can leak all the way through right but this is all paving a road to talia's um coming out and garibaldi's piece as well potentially right right i mean just just assume talia doesn't leave and she sticks around and assume you know play it forward i just maybe yeah and by the way those two the thing i said and the thing you said are not necessarily mutually They can be both. Absolutely. Yeah.

[37:46] I can't, I can't, dude. I can't. It would take an army to get to you. If you need to go, I can't call the guard post and Ellison escort. Bless him though. I mean, he's given his all due check. That actor was going for it, man. Miss Garibaldi. I was just going to make a cup of tea to soothe my nerves. Would you like water? T happens to be my third favorite thing. Since I am chief of security, I guess seeing you're secure is my job. And T just happens to be my third.

[38:15] All right. You want to know what his third favorite thing really is? It's whatever the member of the opposite sex is having. So it changes. Whoever he's sitting across from the bar, whatever they're having, that's my third favorite thing. That's great. It's like my kids. You know, like I tell my son all the time. I'm like, hey, you're my favorite.

[38:31] I tell my daughter, hey, you're my favorite. Don't tell your brother. Hey, son, you're my favorite. Don't tell your sister right and i tell their mom i don't care what i tell the kids you're really my favorite but we all know who his favorite really is this is a good man we paused a good spot for talia that's a great shot it's a good little shot for her i see what doyle sees in her a little bit the first day i was crying all the time i was scared and confused and hurting and then abby came she helped me for a very long time never saying a word all that was left was this warm safe place in my mind so in the same episode that ivana supposedly is seeding her feelings for talia talia is over here shaking down with garibaldi i disagree i don't read it that way at all because there's this weird thing that can happen between men and women brent and viewers and listeners that uh they don't have to like be romantically linked to be emotionally vulnerable with each other that's actually a thing that's called friendship you can just have that i know it's not necessarily what we see in media because the story i just heard talia say talia tell.

[39:39] Basically would have ended with a line about she's like that's when i realized that you know i am attracted to women that was the line that was implied if i'm garibaldi listening to that story at some point i'm like oh this isn't gonna happen so i think it's interesting how you and i read that two different ways you're just being friendly uh so abby what's the what's abby's last name i don't know normal abby normal she's just normal yeah.

[40:06] She's normal yeah yeah they said that was an internal joke around the set those internals must have been hilarious i listen for them to be like over that we should ask them to come start writing the clothes to our shows it'd probably be an upgrade it'd be an upgrade still yeah oh speaking of which right most of the cyber experiments were a bust that's why they came up with the idea of using subjects on the verge of death accident victims verge of death not dead.

[40:38] Mostly dead mostly dead it's even better the theory was to hardwire the subject's brain with a computer intelligence it kept the brain functional they're talking about making organic tech that's what they're talking about here empathic deep scan the subject was fixated on the moment of his death shutting down all conscious thought the computer takes complete control the subject is dying over and over again in his subconscious i think you're right brent i think you're right was clinging to the thought of his death as if it were the only thought he had or maybe tell you winners touch something in him something that made horn realize who he really was for a moment i think it's playing havoc with his programming you almost had me believe in this load i'm not sure i believe it myself that's not a wild thought what's that brent we are all the result of our programming, all of us. Okay. If someone can touch within us who we really are and that disrupt our programming, like this is a, this is a whole metaphor about organic tech. That's exactly what it is. You're, you're dead on with what you saw, but I don't think it has to be any tech. I think this is about humanity and I'm wanting to, in my head, I'm wanting to tie it to what we were talking about earlier.

[41:49] Your humanity makes you worthy, dignity, and respect. Yeah. Your programming can make you an absolute piece of garbage. It's your programming, though. So if I can find it. Well, I mean, that's what you're talking about now is nature versus nurture, right? Maybe, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or both. Maybe it's not a versus nature, because I believe that both, you know, are influences. Sure. But I think they're both forms of, there's us as self, there's true self. Yeah. And then there's the inculturalization and programming that we get either taught or in our environment. I don't know. I just see this very much as a metaphor of the value of real human connection. The first conversation, dignity and respect. This conversation, connection through that dignity and respect. Computer power crystal emits a low level of benign radiation. It's 20 years old, but it'll probably come back from the dead at some point. But if we could reconfigure them to look for it.

[42:44] Garibaldi? Chief, Zach Allen. Zach Allen! Man! What? With who? Amanda Carter. That's his voice. That's a go, Zach. Come through red alpha, I'll join you at .6. Oh, rip Lou. This is Jeff's favorite episode on the series. The element is definitely out of date. Why not let the wizard have a go? Hey, it's K'Nicki, huh? Right? Picky from K'Nicki's like a Hallmark card. What am I? Tell me! I don't understand. You're a mindbender. You saw it in my head. A mind bender. Tell me what it means. Tell me.

[43:21] Pain. Pain. Yes, pain. Yes, pain. Please. Tell me why I ain't nothing. What am I? You are a zombie. Call the cranberries. Zombie, zombie, zombie. There's Abby. Ours now. That's supposed to be Abby? i think so really i don't think i understood that that was supposed to be that was supposed to be part of the story on you rebuilt you it was a psycho scan complete low level iranium radiation see tall you would have recognized that as that sweet 15 no you'd think care buddy captain where's miss winners as if miss carter in her quarters as if sheridan personally knows the cabin assigned to each guest on the stage. Or maybe her being Abby was just my fantasy writing. Go Freeze! I fire, I swear it End of the road, pal There's no way to go Think about it Can't think Die When I think Okay, okay You've died too many times, Abel There's no need to die again Speak to him, John. Now, Mars will never be free until the sands run red with Earther blood.

[44:51] They actually will run red with Earther blood. That's the thing that will happen. Thanks for handing it, Earther. Captain, I'm reading you dangerous energy. The freaking chutzpah it takes to put Jeff Conaway on this show and just have him like in the background doing stuff. Right? Come on.

[45:13] Abel Horn wasn't always a terrorist. Fifteen years ago, he was a bright young man, utterly devoted to independence from Mars Colony. That's when I met him. Fell in love with him. He convinced me to join Free Mars. It wasn't a radical group at the time. Yeah, in fact, they were branded as Free Mars Bars, and I was all about it. And then they started like killing people and stuff. And I was like, Mars bars are meh. Hey, if they're free, I'm not going to say no. Even free. Really? Yeah. And they began to become violent. I left. Not a favorite by any means, but I'm not going to poo poo them. I saw Abel again until today. I saw an image, some sort of an operation. Well, did you recognize anything? A location, a face, uniform? No. She's holding it close. That's that loyalty to Cycorps. I'll help Ivan if I move the traffic out. This is why this was a great episode, Jeff, because it seeds all of it. Like it builds all this stuff. You're telling me it's this. You're telling me it's that you saw this. This is, this feels like it's leading us somewhere. You and I know right now, this is all going to be all for naught. Sort of fizzles. This is fizzles and repurposes. Sure.

[46:22] But this, you're watching this for the first time and you're like, something's happening here. Something's happening here. Yeah, because she just went from like, hey, look how helpful and great I am, to like, not so much. Right? Some people collect coins or art. Conspiracy theorist! Collect secrets. Black projects. Conspiracies, secret organizations. You fascinate me.

[46:46] Don't buy it. Pay attention. You'll never hear this again. If Horn was what you say he was, then this thing sure as hell has nothing to do with free Mars. Pull something like this off would take a lot of power and a lot of money. And i think you know who it is does he though all right he does because he's already a league with general hague will never be repeated outside this, For the past six years, there have been rumors about a rogue agency operating deep inside EarthGov. A dirty trick squad dealing in black projects and star chamber justice. I'm just going to prep everybody. I'm going to do a physical reenactment of what I remember this moment being when we watched it the first time. Okay. Okay. Over three years just to get a name. Bureau 13. And the man who gave me that name died soon after. I am convinced they exist and that they are behind this incident. Isogi was a danger to Earth policy on Mars. I think his death was a warning to the other corporations. Jeff is putting his hand over his face and shrinking back into his chair all the way down below the camera. Ruin Amanda Carter as well. Unfortunately, I can't prove any of it. But if this is true, then everything we believe in is in jeopardy. Everything we believe in the web, Mr. Garibaldi. Oh, he said the thing. And I intend to find it and kill it. And you do. He does both.

[48:09] Sort of. 13. Report from Babylon 5 control mission only partly successful. Is the Bureau at hazard? Control does not believe so. Belief is not enough. He has to follow up until he is certain. 13 out. That looks like the mouth of the senator to me. But I know it's not.

[48:28] Yeah, that in on the face. That was 100% going to be Abby. It was going to be an ongoing thing, but we'll never see her again.

[48:47] Oh she's also a zombie because she's number 13.

[48:56] We just saw a spider in the web second time yeah we had a really fantastic conversation on some of the messages on in this one during the episode do you have any thoughts on the episode itself you want to dive into man this episode is like the entirety of crusade all in one episode wow tell me more so much potential so much stuff that they could have done coming out of this episode and it just all goes for not they'll pick up some threads here and there but for the most part this all just fizzles because some freaking comic book used the word and they couldn't figure out how to oh my word um cool stuff man yeah cool stuff this is also one of those things like there's enough said here that your mind starts working of what it could be what it is and even if they were to have continued it chances are what they would have come up with and what they would have put on film would not have been anywhere near what people were individually thinking and be a lot of people that were not happy with how this word worked out so probably for the best that it wound up getting dropped right but you know um in the context of watching this as an episode by itself outside of the entirety of babylon 5 minus that guest actor doing his dang best he worked so hard failing miserably.

[50:20] Minus that this is a really good episode in the greater context of all of babylon five this episode is a complete and utter waste nia in the chat said it best a big nothing burger like.

[50:33] Yeah this yeah there's nothing here but and but again i this episode is a.

[50:39] Victim of circumstance andrea thompson leaves the.

[50:42] Bureau 13 thing has to fall by the wayside there's other.

[50:45] Stuff that we have going on that's that's that's more important but this just everything this and the thing is they set up so many things here the conspiracy theory thing the the there's this secret organization and i'm convinced it's this group over here the whole bureau 13 thing the abby thing who this girl is the the free like it will pick up threads of this but man this just this episode gets railroaded by circumstance i think yeah in a really big way how about you i think that we've had a lot of episodes that we've watched a second time and that has improved on a second watch yeah i think it's the first one that has gotten worse on a second watch is it worse because we know what happens yeah yeah yeah i think we watched it the first time you know when i talked about our listen we were so excited about it i called it a breath of fresh air and all this stuff because it did it's starting to set stuff up and it's exciting there were moments that the soundtrack was work i mean was literally telling you this is going to turn into something like it was great and so watching it for the first time yeah i'm on the edge of my seat i'm excited i want to know what happens uh-huh second time around i'm like well i could have never watched this and nothing would have changed for me right except i wouldn't have seen an actor with accolades go a couple of times yeah that was that was hard to watched be honest with you i don't know i felt bad for the actor like i did yeah yeah.

[52:15] Cause you know, there's multiple takes, right? Different things. And the director was like, try it like this. And he's like, Oh my God. But I, I literally can hear the director. Hey, go ahead and do this. We'll fix what we'll, we'll, it's we'll cut it up. Yeah. We're going to, you're going to be surrounded by lightning and we're going to have all this stuff. You're going to look just fine. So do it. And they just didn't. Yeah. No sound treatment, no visuals, nothing. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like getting the raw recording of Mariah Carey's vocal at a concert, no music, no sweetening, no EQs, none of that stuff. I don't know if you've ever heard that track, but some, some sound guy did her dirty. Very, very dirty. Well, Brent, I think we're at a point where you have a tremendous responsibility on your shoulders. Jeff, don't do it to me, man. I am going to do it to you. And I think I'm very thankful it's you. I have already ranked this one in my head, but you, Brent, it falls on you to place this on our objectively correct.

[53:14] Immutable, inarguable ranking of all the episodes of the second season of Babylon 5. For the first time in the second season, we're going to kick something out of the top five, because our current top five, which is all we have, in number five, the long dark, number four, revelations, three, a distant star, two points of departure, and in number one, the geometry of shadows. Brent, where's the spider that happens to be in the web going? Well jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff i gotta take this from the bottom up okay all right and i'm i'm i'm mostly going with my litmus test of which episode when i want to watch again there's the long dark.

[53:49] There is now our appreciation for that episode came up last week but frankly it didn't come up that high it wasn't amazing or anything the only reason why it's in the top five is because i refuse to allow you to do to this episode what we did the first time around which was just market at 22 and let everything else fall we had to see it fall on its own in this week well jeff i can tell you the long dark is going to fall this is a better episode than the long dark even And the thing is, I have to take this episode on its own merit, right? Like, like understanding how it's a victim of circumstance. I can't blame it for that. Yes, you can. No, second time through, you totally. No, I cannot. I cannot. Because as an episode, it's still an, it's still an interesting episode. The other word, I'm going to say one word and it automatically makes this episode better than the long dark. You're ready for it. Okay. Get the earwax out your ears. One word. Zach. You win. So Geometry of Shadows going down?

[54:51] No, Long Dark went down. Oh, okay. You just said Zack, and I'm like, that's... And there's Revelations. That was Sheridan crying. A lot. All right. I really don't like that episode. I know. I probably would watch this episode prior to watching that episode again. Yeah. However, that episode also has some stakes in it. All right, let's put a pin in that one. Okay. Let's go up to the next one, A Distant Star. This is the dwight schultz episode no no that was long dark long dark was the dwight social okay this was the swamp rat episode yeah russ tram this was an episode that came up quite a bit in our ranking of it it did okay this is an episode that plays more into where we're going with babylon 5 i still feel like i don't like like distant star because of the swamp rat guy and then i hit points of departure all right i'm not even touching that so i'm gonna stop here so the question is is are we.

[55:43] Above distance star between distance star and revelations or are we below revelations where are we that's that's this is me talking it out because i'm not entirely sure where i want to be also trying to give you all the time in the world to write that ending joke oh wasn't even working on that uh jeff spider in the web is going to suffer because of its circumstances and how nothing works out it's a everything about this episode now is meh but at least it's not creepy franklin being all sorts of inappropriate everything else at least matters and so this becomes our new number five episode on the season above the long dark but below revelations even though i really don't like crying sheridan but it still matters in a way that this one just does not a moment ago i would have said you were wrong and that it should be the new number six but then you gave me the one word i said i said zach absolutely for reference uh we uh ranked this at number 13 no way on the season okay right right below points of departure points of departure ended up at number 12 ranked it right above oh this is going to activate some people ranked it right above comes the inquisitor because i'm 100 sure i got to rank that one so yeah you're wrong still stand by it we'll find out though yeah well jeff by my calculations that's.

[57:04] Going to do it for us here on this week for spider in the web i think so next week we got a new episode on deck well not a new episode but you know a new second watch episode jeff i'm gonna go ahead and say this all right this is the shining light of the first half of season two.

[57:19] This is by far my favorite episode of the first 12 episodes of season two maybe the first 11 episodes of season two like by far this was the episode i adore soulmates you love on deck.

[57:34] For next week yes if i come out of next week hating soulmates or thinking less of soulmates, I'm quitting this job. The end because if you can make me laugh you've won me over in this episode made me laugh the whole way it was so good that's my i'm previewing the the stop top of the episode i know right you're giving it just copy paste but it's it's soulmates but we're not talking about what we remember of the episode we're talking right now jeff about what we remember of our predictions for the episode So do you remember what you predicted for soulmates? I do. And I, and actually, if I remember right, your prediction is pretty, ended up pretty spot on. Uh, but I, I thought this was going to be the return of Adira from born to the purple. Uh, Hey, look, I'm Lando's soulmate. And, uh, but then I added that, um, because I liked your prediction quite a bit, which had to do with marriage. And so I kind of like tied into yours and I was like, um, somehow Adira is going to work into marriage with Lando. But knowing that he's tied together, what was yours? Well, certainly if nothing else, he made room in his marriage harem for Adira. He did.

[58:48] If I remember right exactly, Jeff, I sort of talked myself into this one. Yes. I started higher and I came lower. And I said we were due for some Londo and Jakar. And I thought maybe we'd find out that they were soulmates with each other. They were linked together. But then i went no this is londo finding a new wife and to get a new one in you have to bump one out you got to get rid of an old wife so it's wives it's londo bumping old wives out get a new one in which should obviously be lady adira right what can i say i know right what can i say start of a run for you i mean and sort of it'd be great if it turned out well we'll find out exactly how it turned out right because let's just say some of it yeah some of it not so much but either way Hey, next week's going to be a fun one. I'm positive. Thanks for being with us for this one. This was great. Looking forward to being with you again next week. If you haven't already, make sure you've subscribed so that you know the second this drops and you can be a part of it.

[59:44] Like us, comment us, bell us, star us. There's all sorts of things you can do depending on what app you're on. Please just do those things. The one thing you can do, regardless of how you're consuming us, is just share us with a friend or even an enemy, depending on, you know, whatever you want to do. Just share this show with somebody that spread the word and help our community grow. So Brent, I'm going to wrap this one up until next time. Everybody. Thanks for being here. Uh, Hey, go ahead. And I was so close to hitting the thing. Yeah. What's up. Hey, uh, you know, Abel horn, pretty cool. Do you think I'd, I'd look good with like a shocker hand? Dude, that would look super cool. I think dude, like, like, look at this, look at this.

[1:00:28] Music.