We want more of Captain Pierce!
Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.
Londo pilots a shuttle like a mad man! Jeff and Brent get a crash course in the Third Principle of Sentient Life.
Jeff: Welcome to Babylon Five for the first time. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon Five for the first time. Time.
Brent: And I'm Jomprey Chuckle Nugget. And I'm also watching Babylon Five for the first time. We are two veterans Star Trek podcasters, watching Babylon Five for the very first time, taking that overannical lens that we have acquired by over analyzing all things Star Trek and applying it right here to Babylon Five to see what messages are lurking within and should we have watched this show sooner.
Jeff: And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are sure to pull in those references. So we are going to follow the game that we all love to play. You know it, we love it. It's called the Rule of Three. Each one of us, John Pray and myself get three references, no more to Star Trek. And any time we make one of those references, you're going to hear this. And then no more, no moss. And I can tell you one thing for sure, that can be a challenge for us now, Mr. Chuckle Nugget uh, I love sharing the emails and the things we get last week on here. You were born, Mr. Chuckle.
Jeff: It was created in this moment.
Jeff: There's a part two to this. Is there is.
Brent: What do you say?
Jeff: He and I went back and forth a couple more times, um, over the last week, and he kind of messed up a little bit and totally owned it. Okay, cool. What happened? Turns out, uh, he was mad at the wrong podcast. No. Yeah. Wasn't talking about you at all.
Brent: Not me at all.
Brent: There's another Chuckle nugget out there somewhere.
Brent: I don't care, Jeff. I'm keeping it. He could have been talking about somebody else, I don't care. But I'm keeping Chuckle Nugget. I from here. From here henceforth. And John Pray Day, chuckle Nugget, thou.
Jeff: Shalt be from now to forever.
Brent: I'm keeping it. You're talking about a different show altogether.
Jeff: I told him, I said, hey, man, I'm sorry if this is the thing that's going to make you stop listening, but whatever. Also, you can skip ahead a couple of episodes because Brent gets it. He gets it. Starts saying, Ivanova, we're all good. He's like, what are you talking about? You only have three episodes. No, we got quite a few out there. He screenshotted it. I'm like, yeah, wrong podcast, dude. But to his credit, he was just like, oh, my gosh, I'm an idiot. He really fell over himself and sent a really thoughtful Mayor Culpa email. Uh, you know what?
Brent: Okay, so here's the thing. This has been on my mind for the last week because it's been kind of bugging me.
Jeff: Yes. I can't imagine why.
Brent: No, it's not what he said, but it's because, Jeff, you and I usually in text messages to each other, and we talked about it a little bit on the show last week. Other fandoms out there are super toxic, especially on social media. That has not been what we've experienced jumping into the Babylon Five fandom. So to have this email come in, it was, like, so bent out of shape. Just felt weird. It felt off. Listen, you guys have been listening to the show long enough now. We've done enough episodes. I'm a big believer in redemption. I don't hold stuff against people too much. And I'm willing to extend all of that grace and all of that redemption to this guy, even just because he said he's sorry and he owned it. That's huge. So I forget his name. I don't even remember. I don't really care right now. Uh, not that I don't care about you anyway. I'm still keeping chuckle nugget, though.
Jeff: Yeah, that's fair enough. I think you should, but yeah. E. Mark M gave a narun level apology.
Brent: That's a good level apology.
Jeff: Really good level apology.
Brent: Had a great apology.
Jeff: Yeah. Uh, maybe we've got a cool relationship out of this in the end. Uh, it'll be a fun story, if nothing else. Well, from our website, Babylonfivefirst.com, which is actually where he hit us up, which is fascinating to me that he went to our website to complain about a different anyway, good call, right? Yeah, there was a couple of moments for him there. He could have well, we are where we are now, and that's great, but Babylonfivefirst.com the number five the word. First, rick Wiley reached out to us. Rick, I love this is such a great email. He says, I discovered you while looking for a rewatch podcast to go along with my fourth time through the show, including when it originally aired. The most recent episode happened to be where I was in my rewatch. I've now gone back through your back catalog, and this is the podcast for me. He says that we noticed important things. We asked the right questions. Our speculations are sometimes hilariously wrong and sometimes on the right track. Two or three have been so dead on that it's scary. Psyondo and Jacar rule.
Brent: Yes, they do. You know what? His email right there. Hey, Jeff. We've said it so many times. That's exactly what we want to have come out of this thing. That's exactly why we want to stay spoiler free, because we truly don't know what we don't know, and we want to keep it that way. Just discover it as we go and make all the guesses that are wrong and right and let you guys laugh and spit chocolate milk through your nose and let your jaw drop on the floor when we nail it. Absolutely. Like I did today.
Jeff: You, uh, did? Yeah. I almost had to text you and just be like, you did you watch this? Before we'll get to that, one more comment I want to share, and this is one we talked about last week. This isn't a negative one by any means, but it just gives a different perspective on a thing. Um, we've been talking about a lot lately, and that is bad acting on YouTube. R lemariah One makes a fantastic point on the quality of the acting. They say, although there are certainly good and bad actors, I think often the blame for a good or bad performance falls at least equally on the director. It's them making the choices, and it's the director that decides, hey, this take is good to go. It's a great point.
Brent: Fair enough. Although sometimes I think the studio is like, look, I don't care. Just put it in the thing and let's go.
Jeff: Right? They're like, you have $18 for this scene. Just, uh, go. Just do it.
Brent: Your director is kind of doing whatever they can do. But that's a good point. I mean, regardless $18 or whether a studio is breathing down your neck, it is your job as a director to get the right performance out of your actors with the script that they're giving you.
Jeff: Exactly. I've done a little bit of TV, mostly in the sports and sports entertainment side of things. But I've worked with a lot of directors, and there have been a lot of times where we'll do multiple takes. And I'm like, no, dude, this is the one right here. And he's like, no, I need you to do it this way. That's terrible. And sometimes they're right. That's what's needed for the total product of a thing. Sometimes they're not right. It's a really great point and well taken. Brent, you mentioned it. You nailed. So we have another game we play. We'll get to at the end of the episode where we guess what the following episode is going to be based on the title alone.
Jeff: You win.
Jeff: This one was a little bit of.
Brent: A cheat, though, let's be fair, because this was just part two. Like, the title of the episode was part two. The parts that, uh, I got wrong. I said that it was a borel on ship that came through the rift.
Jeff: Oh, boy.
Brent: Well, no, I'm going to say that because we're going to talk about it when we get to that part. But I, um, got that wrong. But what I said was Drawl is going to be the replacement for dude down on the planet. He's going to be like the new battery. They called him the heart in the episode, but he's going to be the new battery. And that's what's going to fix the whole thing because the planet's about to go ape crap all over everybody. And that is 100% what the episode was about for 45 minutes. You guys have seen my reaction video. If you haven't, go check that out. The reaction video that we posted where I did, uh, watch this for the very first time earlier this week. And yeah, I was eating it up the whole way because I was like, I know it, I know the episode. I got it, I got it, I got it. And that's exactly what happened. Jeff, what did you say?
Jeff: All I guessed was that it was going to be the Voralon that came through, and they were going to be like, we got this. We're taking Epsilon Three, dude, we're taking the tech. I thought it was going to be a very Borelan focused episode. Couldn't be more off. I spent my whole episode watching this feeling like, God, wow.
Brent: Well, Jeff, speaking of being all the, um, way off, as your penance for being so far off, for those who didn't watch this episode or haven't watched in a while, or who haven't ever watched it ever, but they're listening to us anyway, because I'm sure there's, like, at least one person doing that. Jeff, it's your turn to tell us what this episode was actually about. And if your answer is anything other than just go listen to what Brand said last week, then it's just too much.
Jeff: I'm just going to play that clip. Just play your clip of saying that. There you go. There's a whole recap.
Brent: I'm sure you can do it better.
Jeff: Go ahead. There's a little more to this one. And this one starts off in a very exciting way. So exciting, I even have a sound drop for it. Previously on Babylon FAW the episode kicks off with the Vorla nope, with the Earth Alliance heavy cruiser Hyperion coming through the jump gate. More on that later. Garbaldi is really struggling. A lot things going on in Mars. Not being able to touch base with his former girlfriend, Lease, he's in the bar and following in the footsteps of his good buddy Ivanova, he gets into a big old bar fight. But this time, no complaints are filed. No harm, no foul, kind of. But it gives Sinclair a chance to, uh, help his friend out a little bit. He calls in some favors to get a connection to Mars opened up for Garret baldi so he can check on Lease. Word of the Epsilon um, Three guy is slowly starting to spread, despite Sinclair's best efforts to keep it quiet. Drawl has a vision of him, and this guy calls Drawl out by name specifically. This is the moment, by the way, Brent, that I was just like, oh, my God, he totally this is what the whole thing is going to be about. Poor London. He's feeling like he's getting cut out of the action. And he appeals to Delan and drawl. They find it very fascinating that Mr. House, the Epsilon Three guy, has appeared to just, uh, sinclair, London and Drawl. It's got to be something going on here. But they come together and start scheming on their next steps. That leads to Lennon Drawl to bust into mid Bay, despite Dr. Franklin trying to stop them. And Varn speaks that's Epsilon three guy's name. He says the planet is going to explode if anybody lands on it. That will destroy Babylon Five and they need to find another. And that leaves us with the Hyperion and not the human. Arc on its way to the Andromeda galaxy in mass effect. Now, this is a heavy cruiser commanded by Admiral Tucker of the Union no, sorry, wrong show. Judge Abruzzo? Uh, from House of no, it's House of Cards. Really? Um, easy to confuse who this guy is. I feel like I've seen him, I don't know, one, two or 300 times before. But now it's Captain Pierce and he's been sent from the Office of Planetary Security to take over Epsilon Three operations. Pearce is all business. Uh, he gets right to it, sends ships to the surface that fast forward the potential destruction of the planet. Varn shares that it's built to blow up before it gives away any of its secrets. Looks like they probably have about 48 hours until boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Garb, all your figures. It's going to take them three to five days to evacuate and things are not looking good. And then they start to look even worse. A big old ship, just covered in guns comes through the jump gate. It's Barnes people, but not quite. Varn is actually the last of his kind. And this ship are the Outcasts, the not so good people from his society that they kicked out some 500 years ago and they've spent all this time trying to find this planet. And now that they have the issue and ultimatum to the Hyperion in Babylon Five surrender or get blown out of existence. In the confusion, a shuttle leaves the station and heads to the surface. Londo is channeling his younger self and flying like a madman. He, Delenn and Drool have abducted Barn and are going back to where they got him. The Outcast attack and a gunfight ensues and it is intense and it is direct from a cutscene in the classic Star Wars tie fighter game. With a sense of purpose and real excitement in the heart of the planet. Drawl agrees to replace Barn in the machine. The land is heartbroken, but sticks to the third principle of sentient life the capacity for self sacrifice for something or someone that matters. And she wishes him farewell. Superdrawl sends his holographic image out to the Hyperion, the Outcasts and Babylon Five saying the planet is off limits until the right time comes along. He entrusts the safekeeping of Epsilon Three to the Advisory Council on Babylon Five. Outcasts are very upset. Head towards the planet. And so Drawl blast a MegaLaser thing out and that blows the ship out of the sky. Respectfully, Captain Pierce apologizes for overstepping. Heads on out to get repaired. Garbal. Well, Garbaldi did finally get patched through to Mars. Lis is alive and well and married and pregnant. He's devastated, but he's happy for her. And he asked the question that we all had when she shared this news. What kind of name is Franz brett, what are your first thoughts on this one?
Brent: Uh, well, first of all, Jeff, I just have to know from you what is it easier to do a recap about an episode where almost nothing actually happened, or recap of an episode where almost everything happened?
Jeff: They're both hard because you don't want to do like, hey, someone came on the ship and then on the station, then they left and nothing happened. And then you also don't want to be like, hey, 2 hours into this, I've described a 43 minutes long episode.
Brent: So you said, uh, that London was feeling like he was getting cut out of the action. But do you know who actually got cut out of the action in this episode? And don't say Jacob, because he wasn't even in the first one. Polio Winters.
Jeff: Yeah. Where was she?
Brent: Disappeared from the story altogether.
Jeff: Completely gone.
Brent: And that kind of bothered me. I got to lie. Overall, this episode, uh, I liked it, I had fun with it. I would watch this episode again. I don't say again and again and again, but I would watch this episode. Do you know what episode I wouldn't watch is? Part one. Yeah, even in a rewatch, I would just skip it. Because, you know, all that you need from part one is what happened in last time on Babylon Five.
Brent: Even doing this run, we could have skipped episode one and just gotten that from the recap and then been just fine and moved on with it. But I had fun. I said at the end, I said something that Matt often says when he finds a show that, uh, he really likes on Beat Me Up. Uh, this is good TV.
Jeff: Yeah. This is good TV.
Brent: I enjoyed it. Is there a lot to dive into and to plumb the depths of? I don't know, maybe not. We tend to figure that out as we go through the episode and the way we talk. But everything happened exactly the way I thought it was going to happen. Except for the borlan thing.
Jeff: Yeah, there were no surprises in this one.
Brent: Yeah, I was going to say, I did have a surprise that it was the hyperion. I guess I'll end my opening thoughts with this. That was such an anti climactic way to begin the show that it felt cheating. And I know we referenced a little bit Dust of Both Worlds last week. I'm going to reference it again at the end of Best of Both Worlds, riker says, Commander Wharf fire. Maybe he says, I think he's probably still Lieutenant at that point. Whatever, lieutenant Wharf fire. And then we're out for three months. Right. And then when they come back to the episode, it's Mr. Wharf fire. And then he pushes the button and just nothing happens. Like, that's how they got out of it.
Jeff: It was just, oh, my gosh.
Brent: And then, yeah, nothing happened.
Jeff: No, it didn't work. Look at that.
Brent: That's how they got out of it. What? Like, the answer to that moment did not live up to the hype in the anticipation. Uh, and neither did the hyperion live up to the hype of Garibaldi's draw, um, dropping on the floor when he saw who came through the jump gate. The big ship honestly didn't look that big. It didn't look that big at all. You know what looked way bigger was the barns outcast PG.
Jeff: Yeah, that ship looked awesome. That thing was terrifying. Yeah, right?
Brent: So I was just like, man, in that way. It felt very Star Trek, but that actually just, I think, feels ninety s sci fi to me. But then Pearce comes in and we meet him, and all of a sudden he's trying to take over. And here's number two. Jeff I'm having major Captain Jellico vibes.
Brent: Like, this episode is feeling all about here's the guy coming in, he's got orders, he's a legit guy, but he's going to come in and take over and mess up everything and do it exactly the wrong way from what we're going to need. But in the end, we're probably going to figure out that he actually was a good guy and we're going to get some great memes out of him that are just really bad dad jokes. That's a fantastic Twitter account to follow, by the way. Jeff, what did you think of this episode? A Voice in the Wilderness part Two.
Jeff: I liked the episode, but, like, my note here is, why was this a two parter? Like, exactly what you said. The only thing they didn't have in the recap was Garibaldi and leases the context on that. But that is a three minute scene that could have gone anywhere. It could have replaced his little Shazam magic trick blasting the guy's face into the bar multiple times. They could have hit it right there. This was a single episode that they stretched over to. One of the, um, things I really liked on it about it was that it leaned on prior character development. Right. The stuff with Ivanova. And this one really worked because we know who Ivanova is. Garibaldi, uh, all the way through to that last scene with him and Dalen looking out there works because we know about not Dalen, but Garbal and Sinclair's relationship. So this was a payoff of a lot of relationships that had built through here. But on the hyperion being a letdown, we've had Cycorp come out and go after Sinclair. We've had the Knights come out and go after Sinclair. We just had Benzene come out and go after Sinclair. So to have an Earth Alliance ship come out and go after Sinclair. Yeah. Okay. This has happened, um, six times or whatever already. I'm not impressed. And Ron Canada, who played Captain Pierce, who is amazing in, um, everything that he got a great actor for this one. I was just disappointed. I'm just like, oh, no, he's going to have to be that arch earth bad guy who's just these are my orders, and this is who I am. And it was, um, that up until the very end when he, hey, sorry, just follow my orders, dude. Hope we're cool. And then took off. But yeah, it was a fun episode. I just couldn't get over the fact that I was looking forward to a two parter. This is going to be huge. This is going to be massive.
Brent: And no, I have a full answer for you, okay? This is a real world full answer of exactly why this was the way it was and what happened. This episode, part One aired July 21, 994.
Brent: There was a one week break in between. Part Two aired august 2394 this was not a mid season break or anything like that in 1009 nine Four, where today it normally takes place around February or March. Back then, 1994 was sweeps week.
Jeff: There you go.
Brent: And it went up to the end of July. It was the week of, uh, july 27 was the week that ended sweepsweek. And that's why they came up with the two parter with the big cliffhanger, to pull that in. That's why they would have done it this way. They needed something for sweet sweet, and they pushed it in. That's the only explanation I can come up with because there was zero reason to make this two parts. Just didn't need it.
Jeff: I can't see it. And there was some stuff that happened in this that happened, but this didn't. I mean, this is going to sound stupid. This doesn't change the game in Babylon Five. I don't think it does. It adds a piece to the board. Right. So we've got super drawn on the planet with unbelievable technology, but I almost look at that as another iron heart that's just out there somewhere. Now there's super draw here. Great.
Brent: We've got super right down there.
Jeff: Yeah, it just happens to be there.
Brent: Which I feel like I said in my reaction video, I was like, that's going to come back, but not until, like, season four or five.
Jeff: Yeah. Um, hey, this thing happened. And we're going to look over here. Look over here.
Brent: Now, just remember that it's there and we'll talk to you later. Yeah, that's about it. So it was sweet, sweet, man. That was it. Which honestly, it makes me feel better because it's not just bad writing at that point and being stupid, like they're playing the TV game with that. So I get it.
Jeff: So this aired on August 23 of 94?
Brent: No, August august 3.
Jeff: Okay. Yeah.
Brent: Part two. Did part one air July 20?
Jeff: Okay. So it's like this week off and then back in.
Jeff: All right, I want to talk a little bit about Garb. All this stuff? Um, on this, yes. He was a constant through this episode. Like, he was in the command conversations that were going on. He had a little bar fight in there. Um, and then for some reason, chased after London Delane and Drawl. That caught me as weird.
Brent: Well, so the way I read it was he was freaking out about everything. He thought his girl was gone or something was going on and he just needed to do something.
Brent: He was going crazy and he just needed to do something. And that's the way I read it. Did he make a mistake? Uh, he was kind of a non factor. He didn't help anything happen, but he didn't stop it either. He was just there.
Jeff: Yeah, I watched it the second time and I was like, Why? Literally, they could have just had a scene where they connected comms with the land or somebody, and they go, oh, we're hooking Draw up to the machine. Okay, all covered. He did nothing. But that makes a lot more sense that he had to have control over something.
Brent: Yeah. I mean, it made it more dramatic and all that. By the way, you talk about the tie fighter sequence, the CGI in this episode specifically, combined with the last one, the way they're going up and down and flying through space, this is a sweet, sweet episode. They're pulling out the money to do that. But yeah, Garrett baldi. Like I said, he needed something to do that wasn't beating up people in a bar. As the chief of security, which, by the way, this just goes back to my thing. People can get into fights on Babylon Five for no reason.
Jeff: That's cool.
Brent: And not even get into fights, just beat down other people. And unless they're in a talk using a knife, no big deal.
Jeff: Yeah, who cares? I had a real problem with the scene before. There's a thing I adored about that scene, and then a real problem. The problem I had was that care of all, he was hilarious, right? I was going to show you a magic trick. Hey, I'm going to complete silence while I do this. That's not someone who's lashing out and angry. That's a sociopath who's like, I'm going to hurt this guy. I think that damaged Garabaldi a lot. Not in a lasting way or anything, but in that moment, I'm just like, oh, no, that was bad. What I loved about this scene was how real it is today. So drunk dude is sitting there and this guy doesn't give the appearance of being, we'll say, like a well educated person or a person in a high level of whatever, and he's just dropping all these lines and whatever that are clearly straight from the news, or to put it in more modern terms, straight from Twitter or straight from your Facebook group. This was the person who's unhappy with life. Kind of what Draw was talking about in the last episode just lost and drifting and has an anger under the surface. Who hears somebody with a media presence telling him, your tax dollars are being wasted to do this? We should just nuke these people and do that. They're taking your jobs. That's our political and opinion world right now, today, where people who don't really know what's going on just grab a bunch of talking points from their echo chamber. That was very real. I didn't like it because it was mhm cool.
Brent: I felt it, too. I was like, this sounds like stuff that I've heard around tables myself. And, I mean, what do you do? Do you call it out? At what point does it become bad enough that you, uh, call it out? Or because for me, honestly, that's where I start getting into stuff with people. And I'm not trying to go the route of Garibaldi on this one. You know what I mean? And I'm not here to change their mind. It's not going to happen. They're going to think what they think and whatever.
Jeff: I have the answer to that, though, by the way. You do? Literally. This is literally what I did with our buddy who gave you who? Christened, you chuckle nugget. I didn't go, uh, tip for tap for him and argue his point. And I was just like, hey, I'm sorry that you see things that way. And if this is the thing that you don't like about our show, I'm sorry to see you go, boom, let that go. Then it comes back with something else. Well, you can look at it that way, or you can look at it another way. It's your choice. I'm happy to do that. I'm also not, um, going to have this conversation anymore. Just don't get into it with them. You're not going to win. You're just going to escalate it. Remain professional, and then when you can't, or respectful, and once you can't be that anymore, walk away, yourself out. Just walk away.
Brent: But in this case, Garbal wasn't even a part of that conversation. Exactly. He was just a guy over there listening. Anyway, I actually want to get your thoughts on something regarding this.
Brent: The scene where Sinclair visits Garbaldi in his quarters, the leadership that Sinclair shows to come in, and he says, yo, I can't have you acting like that. He calls him up to, um, be better. He calls the best out of them. I want your thoughts on leadership. Guru. What did you think of House and Claire handled this whole situation with Garbaldi, which, frankly, he should have had charges thrown up on him and had been arrested. But we've said that for several people.
Jeff: Yeah. This is much less than we'll say. Dr. Franklin, who made some choices, sinclair was perfect in this. But part of the reason he was able to be perfect the way he was is because Garrett Baldi was perfect. Not in. The bar fight, but when he sits down, he's like, so heard about the incident. He's like, oh, uh, you mean the magic trick? Yeah, like, he immediately owned it, acknowledged it, and said, I messed up. And so had he not done that, then that back Sinclair into the place of them having to ask questions to try and get Garibaldi to say it. And if he won't, then it just turns into this you did this thing and that's bad, and that almost never works. But instead what? Sinclair did exactly what you said. Great, Garbal, you've acknowledged that, hey, we're good this time, right? They didn't file, um, charges or whatever. Knock it off. That is what I'll call perfect first level, like, dealing with a thing at the first time. This happens once, and it's a one off. Right. He's in a rep. Sinclair is able to acknowledge the emotional state that Sinclair Baldi's in. Yeah, this is really an excellent move for him to basically say, got you. Don't do it again. And if you do, not going to be cool. But also, how can I support you through this problem? Like, he dove into the root cause, which was the question of how's Lease doing?
Jeff: So it wasn't about, I'm punishing you for doing this bad thing. It's don't do it again. How can we get to the root cause here and help you get in a better place again? Masterful. Also, was he eating out of a toolbox? I don't know if he's like, hey, I just made some dinner. You want something like that?
Brent: It was a pizza box, was it?
Jeff: It looked like a toolbox to me.
Brent: No, it was a pizza box, because I made that note. I was, um, like, wow, they're eating pizza. In the future, they can't get a steak on Babylon Five, but he sure can get some sausage for his pizza. Did you have anything else about Garbald? Because I want to talk about Pearce for a few moments.
Jeff: Yes. One question I had was when he reached out to Lease and they connected oh, yeah. When did you know things were going south?
Brent: As soon, um, as he started talking and she tried to interrupt, and he was like, no, please let me finish. As soon as that happened, I went, that's never good, ever. Uh, because honestly, uh, if you're trying to spill your heart to somebody and they try to interrupt you, let them interrupt you. Yeah, we've seen enough TV. Let them interrupt you.
Jeff: I thought it was cool how I wish they would have done a little more for him, but I think they did it right. But Ivanova reaches out to Sinclair. Hey, we got that channel set up. I need to let you know something, though, first. And then I think when they set up for me, he's like, hey, so she's on there. I'm available if you need to talk after this. It was just really cool to see that. I've said it a couple of times, but that trio, I'm really loving them as friends. It's the nineties version, right, of Kirk Spock and McCoy, and I think it works really well.
Brent: Yeah. I wonder if okay, so here's that over analytical lens that we apply to it. The Kirkscock McCoy relationship was very much set up to be like, the Triumvirate man, right?
Brent: Like, you have the ego, the super ego. Right. Like, you have the conscience, you have the moral, uh, and then you have the logical side. Right?
Brent: Harry Potter, Ron Hermione and Harry are written as that same triumphant man, like, together as a unit. That's actually how they're written. That's the way she made those characters. I wonder if JMS did that. I'm not going to analyze it right here in this moment, but I'm going to think about this. Maybe we'll do this when we get to our season one recap and go, is this what's happening?
Jeff: It's a good idea.
Brent: Are Sinclair and Ivanova and Garibaldi linked in that way? Like, the way that their characters are written, the way what they say and what they do? Is that how it is? Or is this just an amazing trio of characters that work so good together?
Jeff: Yeah, that's a good question. I hadn't thought of that. Let's talk Pierce.
Brent: Yeah. So I really like Pierce.
Jeff: Yeah, me too.
Brent: The conundrum that he, um, was in, I really didn't like his apology at the end.
Brent: I'm sorry if I overstepped my authority. The thing was, he came in with all the authority he thought he needed. He came in with the Senate's mhm full authority. And he was doing his job and what he needed to do based on the information that he had. Right.
Brent: Now he was coming in guns blazing. He wasn't going to help. And that's the way they set that up. He didn't overstep his authority, though. Um, now he didn't do the good captain job of figuring out what the heck is going on before you start trying to throw it down and just slap your thing on the table. You know what I mean? He didn't do that good work, but I don't think he overstepped his authority. And the only reason that things ended the way they did was because Sinclair appealed to the president.
Jeff: He went all the way to the top. Yes.
Brent: And the president came back and was like, no, you need to listen to him. The President just overrode everybody, which is not going to be awesome politically, mhm, but whatever. But still, I very much was on Pierce's side through a lot of, like, with what he was doing.
Jeff: He was he was doing his job. Totally. Yeah. But I think I'm not going to buzz myself this I'm going to ride your previous reference to Jellico on it, but there is a way that Jellico could have come in and there's a way Pierce could have come in that would still let them have all their bluster and all their everything but behind closed doors. So, uh, he comes in, lays down, we're here to take control of everything. I want to meet him with Sinclair right away. They met in person, right? There's the whole scene with them in person. And that needed to be, okay, man. Here's, uh, how things are going to happen, right? Like, I'm here to do this and this. I can do this with your help, or I can do it without your help, but I'm doing it. Jellico and Picard could have done the exact same thing.
Brent: Well, honestly, Jellico and Riker, he needed to get Riker on his side. Riker was, to use a John Maxwell phrase, he was the tribal leader. He needed Riker on his side. And he never once explained himself to Richard. I don't have time. You don't have time not to, exactly. You have you could have saved by actually having that conversation. And same thing here. Like, what they could have saved, because when it came down to it and they needed to join forces, they were great.
Jeff: It was awesome.
Brent: It was immediate. And Sinclair was so good in this whole time, he's like, okay, I don't see any other choice than to work with you. It's the right call here. So, yeah, we're going to work together because ultimately, you're still on the same side. You're still wearing the same uniform, but.
Jeff: On the other side of that was when he's like, I don't see any reason to not stand up to you. I'm going to launch my fighters against you because either I die fighting you or I die not fighting you. So I'm going to try to do the right thing here. That all could have been avoided if he just went in and was like, this is what's happening.
Brent: Right? But yeah. So I hope we see him again in the future.
Jeff: I agree.
Brent: I hope he comes back.
Jeff: What I was hoping that was going to happen with him well, one, I don't know. Benzene so many others that have come in Qatar that came through camera, they're all the job. Uh, there's a way to be all the job that's positive, and there's a way to do it where they do, where it's like it's consuming their soul. I'm going to do that's. What I do want to turn out, I don't know, it's just like an archetype that I feel like everybody from Earth Force that they prop up against Sinclair has that trait, and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of it. It's got a little more creative, but what I was hoping was going to happen, it would have been a great call back, is if Pierce came in, he's like, we need to do this, this and this. And Sinclair is like, yeah, we don't have that, or whatever. And then he's like, well, you were given $1.3 million for your credit, for your military budget. You were supposed to do these things. I expected these assets to be on site. Oh, well, actually, I reapportioned that money to, uh, the dock workers. This would have been a perfect place for a consequence from that decision.
Brent: Sure, absolutely.
Jeff: Yeah, it would have been cool.
Brent: I couldn't fit it in. It was sweepseak, after all.
Jeff: There's so much going on this episode, right? And the one before.
Brent: Okay, so two fun little things that I noticed that bear no consequence on the episode whatsoever. I've actually noticed this one for a few episodes now. I, uh, just haven't brought it up. And I really like it. It makes me smile every time I see it. In Sinclair's quarters, he has a sign on the wall that says Sinclair Aircraft.
Jeff: Yeah, so cool.
Brent: Like it's an old beat up sign from somewhere. It's his it's got his name on it.
Jeff: He's got pilots in his history. I bet it's from like, an old airplane, like a fighter jet or something.
Brent: I would oh, like his great grandfather flew or something.
Brent: Now I want the story behind that sign. I want the story behind that sign. Similarly, though, in Garbaldi's quarters, he has a picture, and it was one of two things. It was either a picture of Mars being from Mars that's his thing, or and actually, I think this might be more likely what it was. It's a picture of Jupiter from the surface of Mars.
Jeff: Um, okay.
Brent: That's actually what I think, because it really looked more like Jupiter than it did Mars, but it had the kind of rocky, the way they're taking the picture through it, given the fact that they've really played into Garibaldi being from Mars, having that connect to Mars, still seeing that up there on his wall like that. Props to the set people, to the set designers and stuff. It's a little detail like that. It made me smile. Anyway, I very much appreciated it.
Brent: Can we talk about drawl and delin and barn? So, I mean, I don't really have a ton to say about this other than I was right. So I'll let you go and discuss draw becomes the battery.
Jeff: Most of my thoughts I'm going to reserve most of my thoughts on this for the closing thoughts. Okay. Yeah. Because there's some juicy, juicy cuts of steak in the conversations they had. So I'll hold on to that. What I thought was cool, um, I don't know if Council right word interesting, maybe, was just how immediately, um, everyone was willing to help, you know what I mean? Like, he didn't have to. Strongarm delay. When London became part, uh, of the equation, they had that really cool little conversation in the observatory area or whatever there, where we learned that London led the attack on fraud twelve and did all these great things. That was cool, but there wasn't a lot of, like, they were all just like, yeah, this thing has to happen and we're going to go do it. I just thought that was really cool and it put Lando in a much higher esteem than I had him in before.
Brent: It really did.
Brent: He wasn't just the guy fighting Jakar, um, in this episode. Exactly. He wasn't just foil or I don't want to say comic relief, because that's not what I mean, but he actually has substance to him as a person.
Jeff: He brought stuff to the table. He had a history that prepared him for this moment, uh, and everything. Yeah, it was great. The one issue I had with it was when so they kind of come to the decision, we're going to go steal this. We're going to kidnap this dude and head down to the planet. They don't say it right. That's all a lot of entandre, but London is like, hey, let's go. And do you know what you're agreeing to, uh, here? You understand? And he gives us really great little soliloquy about how I've known that I would die on my feet doing something noble and feudal and whatever, but I thought he was going to die with his hands wrapped around Jacar's throat.
Brent: I had that same thought. Yeah, I had that same thought.
Jeff: What happened to that? Yeah, I enjoyed that whole sequence. I liked how it all went down. I loved it. I liked the scene when he was flying the shuttle down and Ivanova was like, whoever is flying that shuttle is a madman. London was like, who says the good old days are behind us? Landing thrusters. If I was a landing thruster, where would I be?
Brent: Like, he looks at it, he does this thing, and then he pushes it and he just gets the biggest smile on his face, like, yeah, I thought.
Jeff: That was really cool, but, yeah, for the most part, I didn't get a lot out of there outside of the stuff I'll wrap up here at the end.
Brent: I mean, this is what I talked about last week. So much of this episode is going to be action, action, action. Pew, pew. Um pew. Let it roll. So I do want to jump backwards just for a second because, um, I want to put this out there and then let's jump forward to that part where you can talk about all that. Jeff, I want to go back to the conversation about Lease.
Brent: One, I saw her name in the credits, so I knew she was going to be coming up at some point in the episode. I thought maybe she might become, like, a thing. And I think this really was that. She had 45 seconds on screen and she's done for the rest of the series. Garbaldi was wrapped up in an old love for about 45 minutes in the last episode, and now he's released and can get after Talia Winters again or whatever he's going to do. It's not changing anything for him. But I like the fact she was married and I liked the fact that she was pregnant and that it shut down everything having to do with Garibaldi, and Garbaldi handled it great so well. It's like, hey, listen, I'm really happy for you. That's awesome. My heart just broken 1000 pieces all over again, but I'm really happy for you. And I felt the same way about Med Ryan's character in Castaway.
Brent: When Tom Hanks came back from the island and all you want to do is get back to his wife, right? Get back to his girl. And she remarried and had a family, and what she did was she stayed with her family. She didn't go back to him, and he had to start a new I would have hated it if she would have left her family to go with in either one of these two situations. Because that's the Hollywood thing that you see sometimes.
Brent: But no, stay with your family. Like, you're here now.
Jeff: Your life has moved on, I think. Have you watched the Umbrella Academy?
Brent: Uh, I'm probably like four or five episodes and it just hasn't grabbed me. But I keep trying.
Jeff: Yeah. I'm in the third season that just came out where we've almost finished it. I really enjoy it, but there's a lot of this tiny whimy stuff that happens through the second and the third season. And there's a thing where there's a relationship and one person is like, but we can do this and we can get back together, and we can yes, it's been ten years for me. It's been three days for you, but it's been ten years for me. I've been with all these people, I've done all this stuff. You're barely even a blip in my mind anymore. And that's the truth. I think about ten years before now. Yeah. Like, deep friendships and work relationships and whatever I had back then, I don't even think about those people. I don't mean that, like, in a negative way. It's just that's how our stuff goes. So, yeah, it is the right thing. You stick with your life that you have now. And my heart broke for him. That was hard. And, uh, Jerry Doyle again, just so good doing that whole piece. But I wouldn't be surprised if she I don't want to say she becomes an ongoing piece, but that this is more of a wait for him that we revisit. Uh, a couple of times I could see her coming back in flashbacks or something, because here's my theory that I just thought up of just on the moment right now. That picture in his quarters from Mars to Jupiter was a picture they took together, and they were on Mars sitting on a bench or whatever, and he wanted to capture a moment, and to this day he has that on his wall. So I think we're going to revisit this relationship a couple more times in the future, but I think it will be like flashbacks and things like that.
Brent: If this becomes a part of his character and how he grows and moves forward, much like the alcoholism thing, I'm 100% for it. If it just becomes a plot device that doesn't really matter to who he is as a person or a character, doesn't help him grow or change or do something, then I would absolutely hate it if we went back to that, because I want to just let it be. But if it has an effect on them, I'm with you. I'm 100% with you.
Jeff: It's become a personal mission for me to prove your theory that Sinclair is a Minbari, and I love it. I have two proofs this time. Proof number one how Delane and crew and London go down to the surface, and they're, uh, like, why aren't they shooting at them? How come? Because they've got Barn in there, and the people that he appeared to, the Varn, showed up to well, uh, why didn't they shoot at Sinclair and Ivanova? How come they were able to get in? Because Varn appeared to Sinclair, and he did so and was allowed in because he's Minbari, and he knew that, and he was like, yeah, come on in, because you might be a likely match for this thing, which delayed backs up at the very end of the episode that, yes, Sinclair would be the guy in there. Otherwise, proof number two is that if he was faced with the choice of we can send draw and plug him into, um, the machine, or I can go into the machine while as a Minbari, I believe in service above all. So in this episode, I'm giving you two more proofs. Justin claire being a Minbari for it.
Brent: Yeah, I'm for it because he totally is. He's at least half minbara. And this guy, he's Captain Cisco, right? He's half profit.
Jeff: Exactly. Uh, that's three.
Brent: That's my three.
Jeff: There you go.
Brent: That's my three. That's okay, because we are now arrived at that point. Jeff, you said that you've plumbed the depth of the storyline withdrawal and Barn and all those guys. I just said it was PPP. Action. Action. Action. It was fun to watch. What did you pull out of this episode?
Jeff: This episode is actually an episode in Star Trek. It's called Lift US, where suffering Cannot Reach, from the first, uh, season of Strange New Worlds, where in this one, it's a very different approach, the same kind of idea that we need to plug a person into a machine to keep things going. But it's the approach and the difference that matters. In the Star Trek episode, it's about exploiting other people. The society chooses to sacrifice others to maintain their quality of life. In this episode, the self sacrifices themselves, and there are meaningful reasons behind why they choose to sacrifice themselves. So we see the self sacrifice a couple of places. In this episode, we see Drawl sacrificing to put himself in the heart of the machine. We see it in Delene when she chooses to not fight back and just wish him well and to say goodbye. We also see it with Garibaldi when Lee drops the bomb on him, and he's like, okay, I'm happy for you, and I'm going to go now.
Brent: I'm going to go cry.
Jeff: So that concept of society is going to choose to sacrifice something, as opposed to, I'm going to sacrifice myself, and then add to that the end that comes together. What we learned from Superdrol, that there's knowledge and technology greater and beyond us. It's greater than our society, and then trusting a group to safeguard that knowledge until it's ready, uh, until it's needed. But then the counter that is the drunk guy just blindly parroting his echo chamber. And those pieces, like we talk about holding up a mirror to society, while in Star Trek, we hold up a mirror and then kind of show, hey, if you redirect this way, things will be better. This just held up a mirror and said, this is you. Here you are. It was great they brought that piece up, but they didn't go anywhere with it. But with the whole piece that Draw talks about on sacrifice and the third rule of sentient life or whatever, I thought it was just so very Star Trek, and it was the theme through the whole thing.
Brent: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.
Jeff: So with it being the third rule, I'm going to give it three deltas.
Brent: Awesome. Yeah, I mean, I wrote it down. I don't think it could be any more concisely said than I think the way it was Delin put it. The third principle of sentient life is self sacrificed for a loved one, for a cause, or for a friend. And that is one of the most Star Trek type messages that you could ever find that I don't know that you would actually find in Star Trek.
Jeff: Right, yeah.
Brent: Because Star Trek doesn't do self sacrifice a lot. They just don't. They do non greed. They do don't be selfish. Uh, but they don't do self sacrifice.
Jeff: So what's mhm when they do it's in Star Trek Two the Wrath of Con? Huge. So well done.
Brent: Needs of many outweigh the needs of the few, and in this case, the one. This was the note I had in this point. This isn't Star Trek. This is Babylon Five. This is what Babylon Five is teaching, which is different from what Star Trek teaches. This is where the separation occurs. Babylon Five is not Star Trek. Star Trek is not Babylon mhm Five. And people have been saying for the last 18 episodes, 19 episodes to us, Jeff, that it's really unfair to compare two shows, to try to compare Babylon Five, two Star Trek, because they're not the same show. You know what they're absolutely right.
Brent: We absolutely can take that lens that we have applied where we over analyze it and not even over analyze it, but where you analyze it for those messages and apply it here. And that's the point of this podcast. You know what I mean? Yeah, but to me, this is where the line is drawn in these kinds of statements that I just don't think we really hear this way over in Star Trek, but if they're not twins, let's just say they're cousins, like, they're in the same family. They live right next to each other. And so for that reason, I'm going to give this one three delta as well. It's not Star Trek.
Jeff: But it is.
Brent: But it's not, right? It's close.
Jeff: Well, you said it's Babylon Five, and I think I've been thinking about this, because we talked about this a little bit last week on just we came into this, we've shared the story with some people as well. That when we first started recording this podcast. We did some testers that we sent out to some close friends and trusted people, and their response was, is this a Star Trek podcast that incorporates Babylon Five, or is it just a Star Trek podcast? Because that was all we were talking about. That turned into the game. The rule of three that we play.
Brent: Turned into the title, not a Star Trek.
Jeff: Right? Yeah, but I think we've gotten there where yeah, this is Babylon Five.
Brent: This is Babylon Five and exists on its own, separate. We're going to continue to look for those Star Trek like messages. Not the Star Trek messages. The Star Trek like messages. And, uh, I think we're still going to give it delta, unless we want to change it from Delta to.com Links. I don't know what they have in Downtown Five yet.
Jeff: Let's think about this. So we only have a handful of episodes until we have completed season one, and we've already talked about doing a season one recap episode, and so let's kind of figure out what that looks like moving into season two. Brent that's it for A Voice in the Wilderness, part two. Next week, we're going to be watching Babylon Squared for the first time. Never seen these episodes. We haven't looked up any pictures. We don't know any synopsis or anything. We know synopsis. Synopsis, synopsis, synopsis. Well, this was a Babylon squared. That's what we know. That's all we know. Brent, what do you think? Based on the title alone, babylon Squared will be about?
Brent: Well, coming off my absolute home run of today's episode, I'm going to deliver back to back home runs.
Brent: And I'm going to give you a detailed plot synopsis of this next episode.
Jeff: Wow. Okay.
Brent: There are two Babylon Fives. They're existing in the same place at the same time, just a little out of phase, but same place, same time, but turns out they're actually sharing a single power source and that power source is starting to act up because it's just too much. One Babylon Five is trying to put a stop to the power source from acting up, but in doing so, they're unknowingly damaging the other Babylon Five, which is just getting all jacked up, and even a couple of people die in that process. Eventually, the two figure out what's going on. They make contact, and the two Sinclairs like being a little at odds, but they decide to work together and they realize that one of the two Babylon Five is just going to have to go. They can't both keep them or they're both going to get destroyed. So they make a plan to send the people from the one over to the other, although now you're going to have double people, but that's okay. They'll figure that out. And just as they get ready to do that, the Vorlons, uh, come in and begin to attack the good Babylon Five. That's not destroyed, and that whole situation is just about to go really bad. So, in a last ditch, the people who died on the damaged Babylon Five, they take those people who are so alive, send them through the rift so they can live on on the other Babylon Five. Well, this one just gets destroyed and away we go. That's what Babylon Squared is going to be about.
Jeff: I cannot wait to see if Sinclair handles that the same way Janeway did in the exact same episode. But chuckle nugget, you're probably not wrong. That was good. Yeah, I had a whole different take. Um, it started out similar at first. I'm like, oh, my God, here we go again. Same thing. No, I think we're going to have a copy of Babylon Five show up nearby. Again, a little out of phase, a little different, but no one on board. And when they go over to check it out, they're going to find clues, hints, pieces of the story about what happened to the previous Babylon, um, stations. So we're going to move that plot piece forward a little bit in this one.
Brent: I hope that's actually what they do. Maybe not necessarily in the way you described, but to move into that storyline of what happened to the previous Babylon stations. Because my best theory right now is it actually still has something to do with the planet. I could be wrong, but that's my best theory.
Jeff: It's the only thing that makes sense at this point because we know that dude from way back that became the Grail Hunter wasn't his fault, it wasn't him. We're going to find out next week right here when we watch Babylon Square. Thank you all so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. If you haven't already, please subscribe to wherever you're listening or watching us on. And if you haven't already, go ahead and click the rating piece. Give us some stars. Write us a review. If, uh, you write. US a review. We will read it here on the podcast. I can't wait to do that. So chuckle nugget until next time.
Brent: Hey, Jeff.
Jeff: Hey, Jeff.
Brent: So, I know over these last 1819 episodes or so, I've, uh, really been giving you a hard time on how you choose to close out the show a little bit. You know what, man? Do it however you want to. If I've overstepped my authority, I completely regret it.
Jeff: Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Because you have kind of given me a hard time on every mother loving one of them. But I will say on that piece, live long in Zamagami, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Star Fleet Leadership Academy. It's ongoing mission to develop leaders through Star Trek. To boldly go where no podcast has gone before. A leadership development podcast told the lens of Star the Star Fleet Leadership Academy available everywhere. You listen to podcasts.