Jan. 23, 2023

Acts of Sacrifice

It was probably meant to be funny, but was it...??

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

G'Kar is desperate, Londo is lonely and Ivanova is put in a terrible position. Jeff and Brent wonder if this is a thing women face all the time and are afraid they do.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5first

Producers: Jeffrey H.; Adam Pasztory; Addryc; Andrew Reid

All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.

Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time. And

Brent: I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time. We are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five for the very first time, but we're taking that over analytical lens that we've gained as Star Trek podcasters, and we're applying it right here to Babylon 5.

Jeff: While this is not a Star Trek podcast, we are Star Trek podcasters. And so those references are gonna get peppered in, I think in this one quite a few times. Actually,

Brent: we, we on, on the pepper, instead of opening the, the, the sprinkle side, we open to the pour side, I think is, might be how this one's

Jeff: gonna go.

It's kinda like when I eat clam chowder and I just like take the screw top off of the shaker and I'm just like, whoosh, just

Brent: pepper or the whole, the whole pepper ball.

Jeff: So good. Yeah, it's so good. But to keep us on track, we have the rule of three. That means we get three references to Star Trek, a piece, that's it that hits three.

One of those plate, no substitutions. Exchanges are refund. And after that, no more references from either one of us. Hey Brett, one other thing we get to do around here is share our five star reviews. Oh yes. This one from Apple Podcasts, Treky trade. The trucker says,

Brent: Say that one 10 times fast, right? I could barely say trade the trucker.

Treky trade the trucker Treky trade. The trucker trick tree. The tricker. Yeah. I can't do it. That's

Jeff: good. I could barely say it once. Slowly . But Treky Treky says, This podcast is awesome. Babylon five is a show that changed my life. We talked about that with quite a few experiences from people a while ago, which is cool.

Well, it changed the way that I perceive the World Media religion, just to name a few. I can't wait to continue to see these guys experience the show for the first time.

Brent: Awesome. Thank you. And you know, I think we like that part about the show too. It ch That's Jeff. This is why we apply that Star Trek filter because this is what good sci-fi should do.

Mm-hmm. , not just Star Trek, but sci-fi in general. It should challenge the way that you think about things and the way you view things. It should help to, to shape those things that should inspire new thoughts and new ideas. It should make you boldly Okay, nevermind. Not a reference. I wasn't, Don't don't use it.

Yeah. I'm not using it. I gotta save.

Jeff: But it is. Cause I think it's one of the pieces of feedback we get a lot from the emails and the tweets and even the, the comments on YouTube is that people are watching Babylon five . What?

Brent: What? I'm so sorry. I just saw your name on the screen. Oh my God.

Jeff: I love it. Jeff Conoway is in this bad boy

If you're listening to this, you need to go watch this on YouTube. I got a fun name on here. It's super

Brent: appropriate. You should go to YouTube and see. Are you gonna get it done with?

Jeff: I'll just say it's like a Hallmark card,

But the cool thing Brent people are saying that they are watching Bab long time fans are watching the show differently because of the lens that we put on this and we call it that Star Trek equality. And frankly that upsets some people, right? Star especially at first. Yeah. Yeah. Well still does, I still get emails.

Yeah. From people who are just like, you need to stop comparing this to, We're not comparing it to Star Trek, we just call that magic of sci-fi. We just call it star trekky cuz we're Star Trek guys. Like, Okay. Again, if you're watching this on the YouTube, I've got a Delta on my shirt right now. So I mean it's, it's what we

Brent: do.

I've got, I've got a hand painted thing of Murf in the background and Star Trek figures, but I also got a Babylon five figure and also Mickey Mouse and Sports. And it's okay to like all of it.

Jeff: It's totally fine. Right. And speaking of liking all of it, Brent, we have another five star review. Oh, yes. And this one's from Pod Chaser.

You can also leave us a review on Pod Chaser. We get shout out, out Pod Chaser PO folks. Yeah, I dig Pod Chaser. It's a great place to go. It's almost a, uh, it's almost like a good reads for

Brent: podcasts. I, I've always thought of it as imdb for podcasts. Oh yeah. I

Jeff: like that. Yeah. You can even track like guest appearances and things like that.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yep. Imdb Well on Pod Chaser. Michael w says, I'm not much into podcasts. I'm more of a YouTube guy that watches podcasts and there's only one that I can't wait for the next one to come out and never miss a single thing they do. That is of course, Babylon five for the first time. Not a Star Trek podcast.

There's study and dissection of episode. Both thought provoking and accurate to a degree, and also wildly funny for how way off they are, and yet others are so close to being correct, but screwed up. A few major points that I want desperately to leave, spoiler comments, but I refrain an attention grabbing podcast that all sci-fi fans should be listening to and watching on YouTube.

Brent: Michael w thank you and we love that you're enjoying this. And guess what? Next episode comes out on Monday.

Jeff: Each and everyone like clockwork. One more. This is a comment from, um, a member of our YouTube community. Missy Prime, Missy comments very early. Yeah, Missy, What's up Missy? Yeah, and this is a cool story.

This is going back a little ways, but we've talked in the past about how great the fandom is in our community here, and I mm-hmm. and I think we've gotten more, um, involved in the Babylon five community. As we've, you know, gotten kind of further along and, and I will, I will own that. Like, I think our community is kind of like the cream of the crop of the Babylon five fan community.

Do not disagree. We have incredible people that we interact with and we appreciate it, but Missy had this really cool story. She says, Uh, yes, this is a really great fandom. I got a 25 year old star theory model, and some of the decals were water damaged. It was the cyco decals that were damaged. Hmm. I mentioned that in a B five group that I wanted a Cyco star theory, and two weeks later, another fan from the other side of the world had posted me replacement decals that he had.

How cool is that?

Brent: The Babylon five community's awesome, man. Yeah, yeah. Like I, you know, we've said it before, I'll say it again. You said it a little bit earlier. We've been a part of a lot of fandoms out there. Fandoms have a lot of opinions about how things ought to be and should be, and how things are. And they have a lot of gatekeepers, a lot of time, dude, you know, the real fan.

If you, if you're a real fan, you've done Avalon five hasn't experienced hardly any of that. And, and this has just been a cool place to be. And the fact people are taking care of each other, you know, who does that? You know, it's a good company that does stuff like that. Lego, really, if you reach out to Lego and like you're missing a part or missing a sticker or whatever, they'll, they take care of you super fast and super quick and like no questions asked.

Like they look you

Jeff: up. We should reach out to Lego to make a Babylon five station thing.

Brent: That'd be cool. Yeah, Lego send it to us and we'll, we'll, we'll pump it, we'll pimp it on this

Jeff: show. Totally. We can make that

Brent: a thing. We can, we. Jeff, you know, along with, uh, reading all the comments and our rule of three game that we play, we have another game that we like to play at the end of the episode where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be only by reading the title of the episode, never having seen a thumbnail, reading a description, or actually having watched the episode at all.

And now is the point of the show where we look back to what we said last week that this episode was going to be, and we see just how right or wrong we were. So, Jeff, do you remember what you said last week about what acts of sacrifice was going to be?

Jeff: Yeah, I think I said something about, um, we're gonna get back to the cent Na, War and Lawn is gonna make some great sacrifice that would lead to the conclusion of the war.

And I was right in that we went back to the Santa Nawar and that's where, uh, that's where my correct guess kind of came. I mean, we can get split hairs and say that Lando made a sacrifice. I don't think it got us closer to a conclusion of the war. Brent, uh, what did, what did you, uh, think this was gonna be?

Brent: I don't remember, but I was wrong. , whatever it was. I, I literally, like, I legit, I think I, I said something to the effect of like, I wanted it to somehow be a continuation of last week, like with Lanier and how he was sacrificing for Delin and Delin sacrificing for the Mumbar and the humans and everybody like that.

And I, I wanted it to kind of continue that piece, but I knew it wouldn't. So there you go. I got it Right because I knew it wouldn't ,

Jeff: I hope for a negative and it was negative. And that makes a pos I don't do math. I don't know. There you go. That works well for those, right? For those of you who are watching along with us, or just curious what in the heck we're talking about in this episode, Acts of sacrifice.

Brent, can you remind us what this one is about?

Brent: Mm. Well, as Jeff said, the Nan Sonari war is raging. The narn are trying to evacuate civilians. While a Sonari war obliterates everything in sight, a nearby Jaquan class heavy cruiser is attempting to make its own getaway when they detect the civilian ship, which isn't gonna make it to the jump gate.

With a deep breath, the honorable nan captain orders his ship between the sonari and the civilian transport vessel. The civilians make it safely to the jump gate, but the heavy cruiser. Yeah, she has made the ultimate sacrifice, and as we watch the parts scatter across the void of space, the camera pulls back and it reveals that we are actually 600 years into the future in a history museum, where they have been able to quote unquote, accurately recreate this ancient battle between the Goodar people and the evil warship voyage.

Wrong episode.

Jeff: Wrong episode. Wrong century. Yeah.

Brent: No. In this episode, it was Jaar on Babylon five, reviewing footage of the battle with Sheridan and has seen your staff begging for Earth's help. Yeah, that's what this one was. And if they take the Nan side and they meaning Earth, Earth Force, Earth Force Alliance, then Jaar is sure that others will do the same and it will be a great deal.

Try that one again, and if Earth Force Alliance will take the Nan side, others will do the same, and it will help a great deal in the furthering of the war effort. Meanwhile, a Luma ship has arrived carrying an ambassador whom Sheridan Hopes will be convinced to either become an ally of Earth Alliance.

Or at least agree to stay out of the whole thing by joining the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. Yeah. Sheridan would rather Jill with the J hold Ja Car and Lando thing rather than this guy. So he assigns that job to Ava to be the one to seal the deal. If you didn't watch this episode first, you're gonna get that joke in just a few minutes.

Unsatisfied with the very non-committal answer that he got from Sheridan. Jaar goes to Delin because after all, if the Mumbar take de na side, others will do the same and it will help a great deal in furthering their war effort. Well, Delin would like to help. Really. She would. But you see, Jaar has made it so clear that his goal is the other, is the utter destruction of the Sonari.

And the Nan really aren't very trustworthy right now. And her people, well, they're tired of war. Speaking of war. It's breaking out on the station. A group of drunk sonari are reveling in the dominance of their home team, having a few bruise, talking some trash to some fans of the away team that are sitting nearby.

When a fight in the stands breaks out, no worries. Stadium security is there to put a stop to it. Woo, Glad that's over. Okay, it's not over at all because later that same group of folks are fighting only this time. It's down by the trough in the men's room, and this time the station security cop has to shoot one of the narn.

Well, that obviously isn't sitting too well with Jaar or Sheridan because that cop was actually acting out of a moment of true self defense. And Sheridan tells Ja Car that he either gets control of his people or he Sheridan is going to have every last Nan removed from Babylon five because this is the last best hope for peace, not war.

Jaar gets the message, but his people don't. And behind Ja Car's back, they are planning to kill every last Sonari on the station, and they're gonna start with that drunk guy from earlier in the episode, NATA gets wind of the plan and she tells Jaar who goes to confront his people again. And this time he is challenged to the cling on ritual of trial by combat, where the winner gets to retain his honor and becomes the leader of the empire while the loser dies and goes toto core.

Well, or is gonna have

Jeff: it out. Um, Brent, listen, what I, I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm going to, Last week I burned two of my re You just burned your second reference in the recap. This is not a Star Trek podcast. Okay. What?

Are you sure? He's trying to help you out here. It's trying to help you out.

Brent: You sure this wasn't a Star Trek

Jeff: thing? No. We'll get to that in a little bit. Okay.

Brent: Okay. Definitely not a Star Trek podcast. Got it, got it. This one is Jaar and they are the Na, not the Clingons. Got it. I'm with you. I'm back. I'm back.

Okay. Jaar has it out with the leader of the Non Rebellion and he meaning Jaar is the winner except for that one pesky stab that he took, which apparently has poison in it. But no worries. He's been ingesting small bits of that poison for many years and has developed an immunity to the

Jeff: poison. Hey, Brent.

Sorry. Yes, I, I know this is your recap. This is not a Princess Bride podcast either, right?

Brent: Yeah. Well, Delin and Sheridan both want to see Jaar. No, not to officially join the NAN'S side, but they can offer help to the civilians and try to get them out to safety. How you may ask. You remember that underground railroad thing that Dr.

Franklin didn't get fired for? That's how, And just in case you were wondering, where is Lando in this whole situation? Well, he's still a bad guy, and he's even accepting bribes from people who want stuff out of him because his status has been so elevated in Sonari society and truth, he really doesn't like it, but he still accepts the bribes anyway.

He's clearly though having a crisis of conscience about the whole thing, and all he really wants is to have a non offensive drink with his good dear friend, Mr. Garda Baldi. And oh, what happens with Vava and the Luma Ambassador? Well, she's super successful in convincing him to become an ally, and he wants to finalize the alliance in the traditional way of the Luma by having sex.

Oh boy. That is not what Avan of us signed up for at all. But some quick thinking in a serious acting straight out of when Harry met Sally, the old man gets creeped out and he goes away and we're all left feeling rather kind of icky the end. Jeff, how'd you feel about this episode? Acts of

Jeff: sacrifice. So, nice job on the recap.

I sorry for interrupting you. I'm just trying to help you out a little bit. That was rough for me last week. Um, so, uh, your recap was honestly a little more exciting than the episode because like, here's what we know, like this is the episode, right? So Jaar is desperate. Lando is lonely. They're both kind of desperate in their own ways.

And um, and there you go. That's. That's what we got. This, this episode really felt to me like, Hey, here's a day in the life of Babylon five. Oh. And there's a war on

Brent: it. You know what this one felt like to me? There's 22 episodes in this season. Yeah. And we gotta fill out 22 episodes. It's kind of what it felt like,

Jeff: and I think I'd be okay with that if they didn't stretch.

Like a one, one and a half episode storyline over four episodes at the beginning of the. Right. Cause I just, I think, I think they're just, I mean, I don't know. It's just, I, I, I, You're right. 22 episodes. It's a long season, but I don't feel like much has happened in this entire season so far. Mm-hmm. , We've had a couple that were Okay.

Okay. We had a couple actually, that were great. And then we had a couple, I'll say we've had a couple that were really good. Yeah. Couple great. And, but what, I mean like three maybe that have been great. And then some that have been, This is episode

Brent: what, like 11,

Jeff: 12? 12? This, this is, We're on the, we're on the back end of season two now.

Yeah. And yeah, there's a war that started three episodes ago. Yeah. And, Okay, well there's, And the war is happening. It's happening. Yeah. And, and the two people, the two ambassadors on the station that are dealing with it are in very understandable points of desperation. You

Brent: mean the two best parts of the show?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, Put Lando and Jaar in a room together and magic happens and you can't get them into a room together right now,

Jeff: but they're still making magic happen. Like I've gotta highlight their acting. Like I wanna talk about some positive stuff. Holy, absolutely. Holy credit was good in this

Brent: episode, but put 'em together in a room with the, the awkwardness and the tension and everything like that.

Like we need to see that . Not yet

Jeff: though. I like, uh, I'm not a fan of like, I mean like, I just, I just talked about how there's slow playing everything so much, but I'm okay right now with this slow play on getting them in. We got 'em together in the council chambers Right Way When, when Jaar totally no.

Sold them. Didn't look at lawn or anything. Yep. We gotta build this a little bit so when they do get in the room together,

Brent: Oh, we're gonna that I'm, I'm fine with that, but I'm just saying I want, I'm ready for that. Like, like I'm, I'm built. It's been built. Let's get there. A car on screen at the same time.

is, is magic every time.

Jeff: Yeah. What were your, what were your first impressions of this one? Yeah,

Brent: it was a lot, a lot the same of you. Like, I kind of got to the end of it and I, I've kind of had to start making a mental note of like, okay, what happened in this episode that is of significance? Mm-hmm. , or at least as far as I can tell, is of significance to the story that we know so far.

Because I will remind folks out there listening who are like, I've gotta shut this off. I can't believe these guys out here. Jeff and I have never seen this show before. We only know up to this point of the show, we don't know, Oh, well, that one thing is gonna set up all this other stuff you, we don't know.

And this is just our impression watching this episode right here in the middle of it, and then having to stop and come talk about it, you know?

I thought this episode said a lot, but it didn't do a lot. Mm. Does that make sense? It does make sense. In fact, I think it said a lot, but it didn't do a lot like it. There's, there's a lot to like about this episode without actually, I think liking this episode.

Jeff: I think it's, it's something you and I talked about before we came on, Mike, where, you know, at the end of the episode, we're gonna split some duties because you owned the recap.

You're gonna do a Delta rating, how Star Trek he was. Mm-hmm. . I'm gonna do the star theories. How much did we enjoy it? And this will be an episode that our ratings are very different. Yeah. And, and, and that's fine. Right? And, and, and it, but, but it was, I think

Brent: because it means that those two things are not the same thing.

Yeah. They're, they're different. They mean

Jeff: different things. Yeah. But I think, you know, at this point, I think things moved a little bit, you know, things I observed that were important is one alondo is getting a lot more comfortable being the bad guy. I don't like it when they, uh, when they put, you know, dude's pic, the, the, the, the Centara that was murdered and they're like, Hey, we want you to keep this quiet for a while.

Um, cuz people will freak out. He looks at it and didn't even miss a beat. He's like, Yeah, okay, yeah, this guy has no family. That's fine. I'll play along. Like he didn't have mm-hmm. , he's not having guilt about the murderous choices he's having to make. He's having guilt because, He's a jerk now, and no one wants to hang out with.

The only people that want to hang out with him are, it's the lottery problem, right? Like he won the lottery. So all of his good friends don't like him anymore. And the only people that do like him don't really like him. See,

Brent: I, I don't know that I saw that as being the thing that he was having a problem with because I do feel like, at least this is the way I read it, Lando is having a problem with the fact that he launched this war.

Like he want, he, he wants all the glory that it comes with everything he's been saying, the complete utter destruction of n He wants the sonari to be on top of the universe and have their foot on everybody's throats again. And now that they're there, and he's the one who's fairly responsible for that happening, he doesn't like it.

And it's not actually the way it should be. And we've seen Lando in these episodes, Several season one episodes where he's like, Look, this stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be. He's learned this lesson. It's like he forgot and now he's learning it again. But in doing so, what that's done is the only people who want him are people who can do stuff, who can get stuff out of him.

Mm-hmm. . And he like none of those people are validating to him to say, Yes you are. Okay. You're a decent person. You're not this evil monster who started this war, right? Mm-hmm. , the only people who can do that are people who don't want something out of him. Like is good dear friend, Mr. Garra Bulli. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And if he can just like have some normalcy and have somebody like, be like, Hey, let's just talk and hang out and not talk about that, then he can kind of get back to being normal. Lando, not Lando, who started. An entire war, at least in his own brain. Mm-hmm. . And so

all of that being said, Lando is still bad. This is still bad Lando, and I don't like it. And in this episode, what did we see Lando doing? Even though he really didn't want to, and even though he doesn't really care about it, he is accepting bribes from people. Mm-hmm. to do things for them that is not okay.

Like, that's not the, that's not where we want our people to be. Especially when you like a character so much like, we like Lawn and

Jeff: he's guilt handling this stuff, Right? It's like he got these bribes, so what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go pay off Garabaldi for all the times he pulled my butt out of the fire and you know, and I'm gonna go have fun.

I'm gonna go to the place that I used to get to be me. I'm gonna go to the casino where it was fun for me, but I'm gonna go in my new black, sharp, more quasi-military looking uniform with like, My hair's gonna be done to the nines or whatever. Mm-hmm. or the sixes, I think for a Sentara is what they would say.

Mm-hmm. . But in the end, Yeah. He, I think it's, it's a thing that people, they win the lottery or they become internet famous or for real, famous for a minute. And there's this, um, myth, this like perception that people are gonna love me. You know, I'm, my buddies are gonna be my better buddies now cuz I have this stuff, but what, what life has shown us and movies and other things that, you know, I mean, we haven't experienced that, but what we've seen is that's not how it works.

Right. You know, Garabaldi, I actually really liked the arc that Garabaldi took with him where he was just like, what was it? He said like, lawn's, like, I'm not, I am not some monster. Who, And he is like, uh, do you think like maybe you are. Yeah.

Brent: You know, I mean, Gar Garabaldi said it exactly like actually you kind of are dude.

Mm-hmm. like you, you're wanting to pretend not to be, but you are.

Jeff: But in the end, he still came and hung out with him. I think, because he, he saw that, that piece of, of Lando that they did connect with, We talked a while ago about how lawn is going to victim himself enough so that Jaar is gonna attack him.

The council's not gonna include him. Sheridan's gonna shut him off, and in the end it's gonna be all by actions he takes. And then he is gonna be like, Well, this is why I did it, because you didn't listen to me, because you didn't these things. It's like, No, you made all this up. Garabaldi, I think, sees that and he is like, You know what?

I'm not gonna leave you. I'm not gonna abandon you. I'm going to be your, you know, your life saver that's floating out there available to you as long as you keep buying me chemically in offensive drinks. .

Brent: Well, maybe instead of light saver, let's talk about a light saver. Mm-hmm. , because there's a little bit of, um, an Anakin Skywalker thing going on here, Big a Luke sky, like Luke Skywalker looked at Akin and said, I know they're still good in you.

There's a spark in there, and I can work with that spark. If I can somehow awaken that, that will be the thing that brings you back to the good side. Mm-hmm. . And that's kind of where I like, I almost feel like that's what Gar Baldy sees. Like he sees a little bit there in Lando and he is like, That part is worth saving.

That part is worth redeeming. That's the part that we want to try to appeal to, because not only will it maybe stop this whole thing, but it's good. Yes. It'll stop this whole thing . Yeah.

Jeff: And I think, and I think that Garabaldi as an addict, right, and someone who with alcoholism, understands that spiral in a way that another person wouldn't.

And I think he can identify that at some level. At some level with Longo, where. You know, he's like, when he's hit bottom, he's like, If only there was someone there, you know, to, to help me, whatever. And in fact, when, uh, was it, was it Sheridan? You know who came in when, when looked like Gar Baldi was contemplating suicide.

Yeah. You know, after he recovered and Sheridan came in and gave him that hand. Yep. Gar Baldi is doing that now for lawn.

Brent: Yeah. I mean, and honestly, when Garabaldi is left at the bar and the bar is closing down and they're like, Were you waiting on someone? And he is like, Yep. I was Yeah. Said he'd be here and he didn't like, I actually think that was good for lawn to sit there and go through that.

Like, I, I hated that Garabaldi had to not, uh, keep as promise, but we understand why he couldn't because of everything else going on in the station at that particular moment. Lando didn't know. And I think it was good for him Yeah. To be left there because

Jeff: have consequences.

Brent: Right. Because this, this has to.

Just storytelling. This has to come back to lawn being redeemed at some point. Totally. Totally. And I think it has to be sooner rather than later. I don't think that this has to, I don't think this is something drawn out multiple seasons, at least I hope it's not. You

Jeff: know, I I, I've thrown out, I mean, all the way from Lawn's story is the, is the whole story to, Oh, this thing will be done in a couple episodes.

But I've gotten to a point where I almost feel like the last episode, like the conclusion of Babylon five is either going to be that we, the viewer get to see Kosh and we know what that was like. Oh, it was, it was the von all along, Right. Or it's gonna be lawn do's redemption story. Like that's the story of Babylon five at this point.

I'm guess. I mean, who knows? Yeah.

Brent: I don't know. I don't know. Uh, I, I'll say this though. Garl Baldy said it best. I, and, and I felt this viscerally. I don't know you anymore, Lando. None of us do. I went, yeah. And I hate it as it's not what I want. Yeah. Not at all. So I want lawn to come back, just I

Jeff: know. Yeah. I wanna wait four seasons for it.

I think this episode was unfair in a, in a good way in that like, it gave us those little glimpses of old lawn and just enough where it's like, Oh, I want that guy again. Yeah. Like, Oh,

Brent: here's the thing. If Lando is gonna be bad and he's gonna be the big bad of the show, or, or whatever, or the puppet, I need him to go all the way bad.

This little thing where he's having crisis of conscience and he's like, Ah, dear, I don't want to do this anymore. Or like, I don't want that Lao, If he's gonna be bad, go be bad. Don't, don't have one foot on both sides of. But it's good TV

Jeff: to do it this way. I mean, it hurts and it sucks and it's frustrating.

But like, you know what? I'm gonna watch next week? Cuz I'm hoping, I hope there's gonna be some, You know what I mean? Yeah.

Brent: But the thing is, is if they draw that out for too long, then you just get

Jeff: frustrated with it. It becomes rumble still skin. And once and once, if you watched that show once, or you're just like, Okay, we get it.

He's bad. And then he was good and now he is bad. God's sake. I'm done watching this dumb show. Do something wrong

Brent: with it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, well, I, it's, uh, the curse of Oak Island where every episode is like, Yep. Gold's not in this hole either. , dig a new hole next week. Not in that hole either.

Jeff: have a shy of buff movie about it.

Just dig digging holes. I thought the Jaar stuff in this was amazing.

Brent: Okay. Can we say this though? Jaar is not a good ambassador. I know he's not good at his job.

Jeff: I know. Like,

Brent: who's, who's worse at his job. Jaar or Dr. Franklin.

Jeff: Dr. Franklin. I'm just gonna answer . Although we got, we got a better, we got a better Dr.

Franklin in this episode. Yeah. Cuz he didn't talk much and when he did, he tried to be funny and he nailed it one time. . So, but yeah, Jaar. Uh, but but also, I mean, Jaar said it best, right? We've never been here before. Yeah. This isn't what we know. And I think Jaar was a good, a skilled ambassador when he could play the, um, the damsel and distress that wasn't actually in distress, right?

Mm-hmm. , oh Port they're doing this and oh, well we only responded back this way. And all those things. Maybe when they were fighting their old war and he was in some level of ambassadors, it was better. But now where it's all out head on, face-to-face war and where it's his buddy who's kind of leading the charge, like it's too personal.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's deeply personal for him. Mm-hmm. . And so, yeah. He's wildly and effective as an, I mean, he's terrible ,

Brent: He really is. He's, he's not good. I mean, he's really good at going and, and killing people and fighting for honor and fighting for control and, you know, I've already made the reference so it's not gonna count again, being Warf.

Yeah. You know, doing that whole storyline, which I, I said at some point, you know, the naar, I know that they're supposed to be marsupials, but they sort of have a reptilian look to 'em. Yeah. Which gives you that they're warriors, they're gonna fight no matter what. Like, you can't reason with these people.

They're always gonna go back to their base or animal instincts. That's just the way they visually look. Well that's what they did and that's what they did . Yeah. In this episode. And I think, which it's hard to like, 'em, like it's, it, it makes it hard to like be on their side in a way.

Jeff: I, I found it interesting cuz that opening scene I think was meant to, Got it.

So it was meant, I was gonna say humanized and I don't want, It was meant to connect us to the na Right. To see, I have a question about that opening scene.

Brent: Yeah. Okay. Was that opening scene video or, or whatever of the actual battle as it happened, or was that like they, I don't wanna say they doctored it, but like they made it up because that, that scene really had this look of something that was shot from the viewpoint of the Narn.

They are the innocent, the noble. They're the ones who are, uh, you know, they're the victims of everything, and they're gonna rescue their people and make the ultimate sacrifice, and they're gonna be really nice to each other. And the sonari are evil, mean, faceless, like, like it had. That look of this isn't the actual video that really happened.

Like, well,

Jeff: propaganda.

Brent: Exactly. Right. Like that's what it looks like to me. I'm not saying it didn't really happen, I just, maybe not quite that way. What, what did you think? Did you get any vibe out of that? Because you're right, it almost made them too perfect it,

Jeff: I didn't get that vibe the first time I watched it.

Cause I think the first time I watched it, I didn't quite catch that. We were watching what Dalen was watching. Mm-hmm. . And when I watched it the second time, I'm like, Oh, this is just like that time an encounter at far point when Riker came on the ship and he's like, Hey, what's going on? And Picard's like, Hey, go sit over there and watched the episode.

We t vote it for ya. And then he did, He sat and watched the with the camera cuts and everything, right? Yeah. So I was like, Okay. But it didn't click for me that this is PR and, And now that you say that, Coupled with Thelen who was saying, we heard reports that those weren't civilians on the ship. Those were weapons that were getting through.

And those are things I think we know n we know more now about war and how like no one's truly innocent. You know, when it comes to the things that happen in war that those lines between Jaar and Dilen were like, Yeah, he's, he's, he's painting that story. He used to paint, Oh, woe is us damsel in distress, but now they actually are in distress.

But he cried Wolf too many times and Dilen is calling him on it. Yeah. Yeah. So,

Brent: and that's why, that's why I made the reference I did in the recap that it's like that video that they made where they tried to reinterpret a battle from so long ago and they got so much of it wrong. . Yeah,

Jeff: that's a good

Brent: reference.

It's so one sided, you know?

Jeff: But, but I think. Regard for us, for the viewer, though, I think part of that was meant for us to start seeing them as the victim. I mean, they clearly were, they were attacked by the shadow ships or whatever, but to give a personal connection, you know, we got to meet the crew and see how they stalwartly went in and did these things.

But did you, did you

Brent: also notice that in the narn ship? Their captain's chair. Anyway, I didn't notice about the others, but the captain's chair had seat belts. Oh, really? They installed seat belts in the Narn ship. They ,

Jeff: they've got 'em de lens ships. So whenever the men bar been around, they've got those weird looking seat belts.

Yeah, that's a little Totally. But I think, Hey, let's, uh, build a connection with the nar and Oh, they're victims. But then we, then we go see the NAR on the station and they're like, Yeah, we're gonna go stab every, like, they're just violent. They're, they're every, every stereotype that we've, we've put on 'em so far.

Mm-hmm. , I do think though, with them being Marc, appeal in nature like that, that fight scene between Jaar and dude, That was some weird looking fighting. Oh, I didn't even

Brent: think about that. I have to go back and watch that fight again. Yeah. I have to go back to look at that fight again and see.

Jeff: Yeah. Lots of kicking.

And that's the thing I've noticed about Babybel on five, there's a lot of kicking that happens in their fight scenes. And I wonder if that's a direct, like a direct roundhouse at Star Trek who, like the Star Trek fighting is a thing. Double acts, handles and the big things or whatever. Mm-hmm. , they're like, No, we're gonna, we're gonna do kicks.

Mm-hmm. , that's what we're gonna do. And also they're marsupial cause so of course they would kick. Right.

Brent: Lean back

Jeff: on your hands and shoot your legs out. Yeah. I think, and I think too, uh, and Andre, uh, cots, I feel like he did a lot of that fighting. There, like the way, you know, when there's, when you have a stunt person doing the fight scenes, there's cuts, you know, like camera cuts that happen, you know, to show there were cuts but not in the way you would have with a stunt person.

Like a lot of it was like, I can see his face as he's tracking and he leaps off of that, you know, little platform to attack the guy. And then they did the weird thing where they were fighting the camera that B on five has done a couple, couple times. . Yeah.

Brent: Oh, that's gonna be one of those, like when we look back on 1960s sci-fi and we laugh at it.

This is us looking back on 90 sci-fi going. You had your hallmarks of how you did stuff. Ah-huh . Um, I, This all brings back though Sheridan has this great line. We all know that the first casualty of war is always truth, you know, and I think when you couple that with what you were just talking about, the conversation between Delin and Ja Car.

Where? Oh yeah. Look, these are just civilians. Well, yeah, but also you had your weapons and you had your fighters and you hid people there to use your civilians as a shield. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But there's also civilians there. . Yeah. Yeah. But you also put your people there and, you know, and, and, and what's the Lynn say?

She's like the things you've done in the past and made it, and, and said, Make it difficult for us to trust you. Like it, it's an interesting look, right? Like, yeah, we could come to your side, but then what happens when you guys turn around and try to go kill them?

Jeff: And they're asking, and then they're asking us for help.


Brent: Like, there's a reason to stay

Jeff: out of that. It was a really good callback to her speech on midnight in the firing line, where it's like, At what point are you. You know, Yeah. We'll help you then we'll have to help them. And then it's back and forth and back and forth. But I think it's also a good call back to, um, when Jaar was talking to Sai, a miss, you know, was it Catherine, Sai?

Mm-hmm. saying, No one here is what they appear to be. Right. You know, talking about Babylon five. And so I think some of that's, we're seeing that now with Jaar where mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's not what it's, And we're watching you paint your picture and of some things that are happening and it's falling apart.

That scene, that scene where Sheridan and Dalen offered, Hey, here's how we can help and, and we can do it. And he had that moment where they're like, What? You're not, this isn't good enough for you. He's like, Oh, no, no, it's great. You're so generous. This is awesome. And then he walked out and he laugh, cried.

Yeah. What was that? I think that was him like on a, at a breakdown. Like he was about to have a complete breakdown.

Brent: Yeah. Like, was that, was that Andre? Andre?

Jeff: I think Andre. Andre is, Yeah,

Brent: yeah, yeah. Andre. Yeah. Yeah. Was that him laughing, trying to cry? Like he was trying to cry, but he was laughing in order to do it as an actor?

Or was that a character who was in a, in a laugh slash cry breakdown? Cause I, I couldn't tell what he was

Jeff: doing. I'm pretty sure it was jaar. Like that wasn't, wasn't an acting because I think, I think that he was laughing at the situation that here he is having to be happy, that he's accepting aid that he can never brag about.

That was a thing. I can, no one can ever know this was me that did it. You know? And so he is laughing at kind of the absurdity of the situation that he's in, but also crying because of the absurdity and the desperation of the situation he's in. I think, I think if we could spend 14 seconds in Ja car's mind mm-hmm.

what we would see is that he feels personally responsible for the na and the Sonari being at war, and he feels it's on him. To end everyth, to, to fix it all.

Brent: That's interesting. And that, that rings true, That rings incredibly true. What did you make of the solution that, that Sheridan and the Lynn came up with?

I loved that as a solution. It was slick. Like, we can't come help you in your war, but we can come help the civilians. Mm-hmm. , like, I don't think anybody can argue with that and we're gonna get them out because of, you know, uh, the underground railroad thing. Yeah.

Jeff: Cool. It was, it was a good use of that.

Mm-hmm. , you know, that like, okay, this is in place now so we can u you know, use that network and these skills for this. And I thought it was a great solution for it and I think it's very, um, Um, realistic. You know, I mean, we, we've, we've, we're watching war today and when Russia invaded Ukraine, that was the first thing so many countries came in.

What can we do to get civilians out of here and get food to the people we can't get out? You know, it's like, how do we take care of the people who aren't involved in this? That's what the countries came together to, to try to do. It didn't go great, you know, and, and, and, and here we are today, but they, that was, that was the solution.

We're gonna take care of the people who were caught in the middle, and were also gonna do it totally underground in a way that you, I, I don't know if this was intentional or not, or just a byproduct of the plan, but thought it was great. Use Jaar, do not get to benefit from this. Mm-hmm. ,

Brent: which actually is right and appropriate.

Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And proper, and I think it says a lot about the leadership of Jaar and that he didn't like it, but he was okay with it. There you go. Yep. This helps my people. I mean, I'm a self-serving narcissistic, marsupial narn. I want this to be all about me, but it can't be all about me right now. So it sucks, but

Brent: it's going to help my people.

So I will take it. Yeah. Yeah.

You wanna talk about avan? Well, no. No. Before we do that, nata, this new NATA is

Jeff: awful. Yep. She

Brent: is weak and ineffective and

has zero bite to

Jeff: her death. Death Walker NATA would've grabbed a wrench and shut that little group down like it would've been right. Brutal. Right. The, the, the, the crew that had to do cleanup in that room would would've quit their jobs and walked, They would've spaced themselves. It would've been so gross.

But this Netta, Yeah. I, I hope that, I hope Jaar fires and I want that to be a scene. Like, I want him to rip into her and fire her, and I never wanna see her again. I, we were such fans of Nettas and now just mm-hmm. , it

Brent: was terrible. Well, because there, there was an edge to her that, that, that made her stand out.

Mm-hmm. . And now she's just, she's a mouse. She sent, like, there's one point where she, she like punches somebody and then like, backhand a couple of people and I'm like, You didn't do anything to those people. Yeah. Like, like storm troopers would've had a better punch on them than you did. Right.

Jeff: And, and then, and they this, and then the thought that we've seen in the past wouldn't have hit 'em once.

No. Like their children would've felt the punches . You know? I mean, but I think talking about things that we missed in that, in that scene spec or this leading up to that scene, there's all the to stuff. Yeah. Totally agree. I think we've seen her two or three times in this season and every time I'm just like, Ah, you're terrible.

I want the old one back. But when they're buying the swords. Yeah. One, I found it interesting cuz that's the rule. No weapons on babble on five, even though everyone seems to have one. But it, I see it being a lot easier to smuggle swords in than PPGs. Mm-hmm. . So, Okay, cool. Swords. Why didn't they buy those swords from the fly?

Dude? What Negra Like what? Whatever happened, whatever happened to him?


Brent: They had to get rid of him. Couldn't afford him anymore.

Jeff: I guess it was too bad. I was just like the, the second time I watched it, they were buying the things. I'm like, that should be nagra. I miss him. I'm

Brent: surprised you even remember his name.

Jeff: I, I, I

Brent: liked him that much. He was great. I did not. I did not. Okay. We gotta talk about,

Jeff: I'm in a, in a corny way, but Yeah. Let's do the, We

Brent: got, we gotta talk about Ava, uh, before we get outta here because this was,

this was an in your face subplot. Oh my gosh. E plot that they had going on. But before we get into the heaviness, I have to know, I've noticed it for several episodes now, and I've, I've Why is Ava only wearing one ear ring? Yeah.

Jeff: I don't get it. And why? And it's not, And it's not that she's only wearing one, but like she makes it very apparent Yeah.

That she's only wearing one.

Brent: Yeah. And it's like, it, like there's, there's something here about this that I've missed that I just don't know. And it bugs me. And the fact that they just do it and they don't address it. Bugs me. It bothers me. I want to cry and I swear, I'm sorry John. If anybody uses this of, you have the female first officer of the station wearing an earring on one ear and they're using that as a comparison of why Babylon five, or I'm sorry, the, the other SAR Star Trek show ripped off Babylon five.

I'm gonna, I'm quitting right now. That whole conversation cuz that

Jeff: is stupid. Yep. That I want a copy of the show Bible to be like, Oh, Navon wears one earring for this religious reason. Whatever. Cuz I'm a bet you a billion dollars. It doesn't say that and it wasn't stolen, but somebody, someone literally just in the comment said, Well, it's another, it's another example.

It's another example. Did they really? I'm sure I'm, I'm,

Brent: I'm, Oh, you mean like right now? Like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are projecting. Yeah. I gotcha . I was like, whoa. Somebody really just said yes, I see it scrolling in the comments down this

Jeff: video real time. But I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Okay.

Brent: All right. So I just, uh, throwing that out there. I don't think we have to bring it up again, unless they, unless the show addresses it, but Oh my gosh. It just, ugh. Okay. Let's start with a good thing about what happened with, with Aana here. The way Sheridan gave her this assignment, he completely entrusted her and fully empowered her to do the job.

And he gave her a clear, This is success, this is failure. You do it, or you don't go, make it happen. It's

Jeff: beautiful, beautiful. So good. And she got it too, right? Like when they're both like, This is the chance to get your diplomat. Ha ha ha. Yeah, it is totally is. Also, I feel like the stakes weren't the biggest, You know, I think that's a key thing.

When you're developing skills in people, you give them the big bites where the stakes aren't necessarily that high. If this turned into nothing, Hey, we had nothing before, and we're not in a place of desperation. We're just hopeful we can put something together.

Brent: What did you think about the tr the, the representative and the translator and I, I, again, I feel like we've seen this in an episode before, although I think the person was deaf when we saw it earlier, or I thought it was telepathic or something like that.

I thought it was really

Jeff: cool that, um, the Luma have, um, repurposed the tell rights, like I saw do, I'm like, That's a total teller, right? Like, they literally went to the old thing and got the old face costume for it. But I, I thought it was great. I love, I love that whole thing of just like, I'm not gonna demean myself by using my voice for you before I, you know, I mean, it, it just was so, so much frosting on the cupcake of how horrible these people were.

Right. And who were maybe a sneak peek of the closing of the comments. Such a mirror for how horrible we are. .

Brent: Well that's, I mean, that's what makes this episode so. Trek. Yeah. Like, like, it, it, it, it is, is you have an alien species who is looking at humanity from an outside source and being literally holding up a mirror to society.

That's what these guys are, right? Um, it was, it was phenomenal. When, when they're going through that underground area and they're like, Oh, this is how you treat your poor people. You relegate, Oh, we never thought to do

Jeff: this. This is awesome. Brilliant. We're gonna, you're gonna have,

Brent: you're gonna have a, an available immediate workforce that you don't have to support and you don't have to do anything for.

And you don't even have to think about 'em, cuz you're gonna shovel 'em off into this area over here. Cool. Great idea. Yeah. Uh, wait, you're gonna, And then, and then the whole thing, like with the medical thing, like, oh, you're only gonna treat the people who can afford to pay for it. I'm sorry. Who are evolutionarily good to go.

And you're gonna get rid of the people who aren't evolutionary good to go, or the people who can't afford to pay for it. That's how you're gonna decide who gets medicine and who doesn't. It's

Jeff: like, Oh yeah, it's good. We we're gonna, what'd he say? We're gonna figure we, we haven't gotten that far yet, but we're gonna figure out a way to put this into practice.

Brent: Right, right. And it was just like, okay, Hello Earth 2023. Yeah.

Jeff: Whole specifically America. But, uh Right. But I mean, the whole thing, but Right. Did, So I thought the, So I, when the Luma came off, so I thought dude was Teller. Right. Okay. Whatever. But I thought that, um, Corre Moat, Is that his name? Was that the, the

Brent: big guy, the

Jeff: ambassador or the little guy?

The ambassador. The

Brent: big guy. Okay. I think that's his name. I have no idea what his name was. He looked like he was the

Jeff: same race as the Muta do in tko or the guy who ran the fights. Oh. Like the facial facial stuff. I don't, I didn't go back and look, but I noticed

Brent: the nose slits. Mm-hmm. for both of them looked, looked rather interesting.

Um, the, I don't know who the actor was that was playing the little guy, like the, the translator. I know, like, I can see him without his makeup on. I know exactly who he is and what he looks like. And I don't know what else he's been in, but he's been in a lot.

Jeff: I feel like he's that guy. Right. And in so many things, I think he's been, Yes, I'm, I'm, I would, I would bet a lot of money that I know he's in Star Trek.

Um, I don't know where, but I, I mean, look at him. Of course he has been. Yep. Oh, he's a hundred percent men. In Star Trek. The, the, the ambassador guy, His name's Ian, the, the actors. Ian Abercrombie. And you may know Ian Abercrombie as the Voice of Palpetine in the Clone Wars cartoon. Is he? He was, yeah. He was Darth Hideous in there.

Okay. Which I thought was pretty cool.

Brent: So we gotta get to it. Well, before we get to that

Jeff: Oh, okay. Just in general. Yeah. How, how well do you think Ava handled her. Her job up, up until the point of the, the down below, Oh my gosh, you're terrible to people and that works. But up until that point, how do you, how do you think if one did,

Brent: I thought she did fine. There's, particularly when you're talking to an ambassador, there is a certain persona you have to give off a certain aura. And I don't think Ava was doing that very well. Uh, there, there was a lack of confidence on Ava's part that made that ambassador continue to talk through a translator rather than honor her with his voices, right?

Mm-hmm. . Um, because she wasn't handling it with, with, uh, well, confidence, really Confidence. Yeah. You know? Um, and that was actually a requirement of that job in that moment. So, I don't give her full marks, but it wasn't until he did something that was so gross and so disgusting. And so inappropriate. And I say that from our culture because if this truly is their culture and the way they do things, I don't mean to denigrate it, but I don't think it was, Well, it's, I think this dude was just

Jeff: being creepy.

So I, I Franklin said, he's like, Well, no, he doesn't know, but he's like, Oh, they treat it like a handshake. So he was also very eager for that handshake.

Brent: Yeah. And very forceful with it as well. Mm-hmm. and, and I, maybe that's what they were trying to go for, but I didn't buy it. Like, I'm like, No, no, no. This is not the way the Luma do it.

He is just trying to abuse his position of power. And it doesn't matter really if they weren't or not, because that's exactly what he was

Jeff: portraying. And I think too, and Cause I. I have, I had two thoughts. One, if it was like a normal thing. Mm-hmm. , um, which I'll get to in a minute. But the other one was, I, I don't think it was, I think he was taking advantage of her.

And what makes me think that is when little dude stuck around after, like, after she did her thing and he stuck around like, uh, my turn. Me too. Me too. Me too. Oh, nope. Okay, I'll go, I'll go. Right.

Brent: And I mean, maybe they come from a place where they're used to these men just having their way and not having somebody do what AANA did.

But I mean, my, my first thing, and, and this is more rhetorical cuz I believe the answer is just yes. But like when he turns around and he's like, No, we're going to have sex right now. And I'm like, Is this normal for women? Wow. Like, is this what women actually experience? I think the answer is, I think so too.

And Jeff, you and I both have little girls. We have daughters that we love dearly with everything within us. The idea that that's gonna be their life someday is appalling. Yeah. And gross and

Jeff: disgusting.

And I think you're right. I think it does happen a, a lot more than any of us want to, uh, Yeah. Admit. But it, it, it kind of leads to my thought on if this is legit and they do just have sex to see all their deals. Yeah. What if Sheridan had brokered this deal?

Brent: I think that, Well, I had, I had, the thought is, did Sheridan know?

And this is why he assigned a vava to it. Cause he didn't wanna be the one to bend over.

Jeff: Right. , He's like, Look, you're gonna have to, uh, What was it that Franklin said, I've got it here, . It was so, I mean, it was, it was, it was terrible. Everything was terrible. Put a bag over his head and take one for Babylon.

Five ,

Brent: take one for the team. That's what he said, like, Yeah, no, no. Okay.

Jeff: So if it, I think if it was Sheridan that was doing that and Sheridan was talking to Franklin being like, Oh my gosh, dude, this is horrible. Especially in 1995, for him to say, put a bag on his head and take one for the team to share it in.

Okay. Maybe that's a chuckle. But like with aana, I feel like we are really rubbing right up against that assault kind of thing in a pretty, really uncomfortable way. I mean, this is

Brent: where Franklin needs to go stick up for Ava and be like, This is not happening one, and can we just say this, Ava needs to tell Sheridan this.

Yeah. Like she should,

Jeff: She should inform him. Well, that's the thing, cuz she, and when it's done, she says, I can't, you know, I can't let him know. He has to think everything went smoothly. I told him I had this in hand. This happens to. I have experienced this where something work, Hey, go take care of this thing, go do whatever, and then awful things happen to them.

Mm-hmm. , they're harassed, They're, I mean, I've had one person who, someone touched them and awful. And you come back and you tell me, because then I can go, I can go advocate for you. I can go try and make things as right as I can, but she doesn't because there's that, there's that stupid part of our toxic, dominant work culture that says, Well, I've gotta be one of the guys and be able to take one for the team and just do what needs to be done.

It's like, no, no, you don't. What happened to her? I mean, she was brilliant, I think in, in how she dealt with it. But had she not been brilliant, she either would've failed in her mission or mm-hmm. been subjected to something terrible.

Brent: So I just wanna say this outright, um, the way that Aana solved the situation, while particularly in the mid nineties, I could, This played for a laugh. That's what this did. It played for a laugh. It was a hoot. It was so funny. And, and I actually see this from two different sides of the same coin. One, I just wanna say this, it was so inappropriate.

She should never have to do that. She is effectively making a fool out of herself so that she doesn't have to do something she clearly doesn't want to do. Nobody should have to do that. You should just be able to say no. And that's the end of it. Mm-hmm. .

Jeff: Right. And not even, you know, Cause it's no period done.


Brent: Yeah. Done. No, I'm not doing that. Okay. Done. Right. But the other side of that, Well, I gonna say this, I know that that was supposed to be played for a laugh. I didn't think it was funny. I don't know if that's me sitting here in this day and age in a Post Me Too era. And I, I think we're post Me too.

Maybe we're, I don't know. We'll, anyway, still be, Yeah, I don't know. But, but I don't know if that's just in, in this day and era, just being more aware of the, the plight of our, of our sisters on this earth. I didn't think it was funny. Maybe I would have back in the nineties. I hate to say it, but maybe I would've cuz I think that's what it was played for and meant to be.

But, uh, no one should ever have to do that. That being said, I loved the way that Ava took this into her own hands. She took agency over her own being and, and

she attacked the situation head. and she came through it in the end with her integrity intact. I loved that for her, that she's like, You know what, I'm gonna roll up my sleeves. I got this. Yeah. I'm gonna take care of this. Now. It required her to act a fool, which was not okay, but like the fact that she was able to still do that, she didn't have to go running off to a man for help.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I know we both just sat here and said she needed to tell Sheridan that had nothing to do with him being a man. That has to do with him being her superior. Yep. And, and him being able, that superior taking care of their

Jeff: subordinate. Yeah. If, if be on five had an HR department go to them.

Right. It doesn't have to be Sheridan, but you go, you go to that. Yeah. If Dr. Franklin was a professional in any sense of the word, you go to him, but he is not, so don't. Right,

Brent: right. Okay. Here's my one last thought though, and this may transition us. I don't, I don't know if you have anything else. Here's my one last thought though.

In thinking about this, let's play the idea. Let's just assume that this really is the traditional way of sealing a deal for the Luma. Hey, we're gonna, I'm gonna buy a house from you, and now I'm gonna sleep with your wife. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, that's, it's just normal. It's a handshake to them. Is this any different than the be a, that tradition of getting naked at a wedding?

That's a great point. You know, and at what point do we dishonor people's cultures? Like, like, that's the question,

Jeff: right? We have, we have tremendous taboos around sex. It's, it's something we don't talk about. It's something that, you know, I mean, as a world, but I think specifically in the United States, it's still such a, you know, verboten kind of a thing that we don't even.

Talk about, you know, I mean, in, in a meaningful way. But yeah, I, I think it's very reasonable to believe there are other cultures that are just like, Yeah, we just do this. Like, it's a, it's a thing that we do. You could have the, you could have the pulp fiction conversation about a foot rub or a foot massage, right?

Like you're just rubbing somebody's feet or you, you know, rubbing somebody's feet Right. Kind of a thing. But it's totally reasonable. That's what it is. And this is just, it's how they, they do it. And I do think it begs that question of who are we to say that's not culturally appropriate. It's not, it's not our culture, but if it's theirs and it's fine, who, who are we to say it's not, not all right?

Brent: Right. And, you know, um, that's the, that's the line. What do, what do you do when something is so repulsive to you, but to someone else in their culture? It's actually honorable and respectful. And those two things clash. How do you handle that? I don't think we've ever gotten a good answer to that. Uh, with that, Jeff, did you have anything else from this episode you wanna talk about or are we ready?

Jeff: Just two, uh, two things I wanted to bring up just really quick. One was I very much wonder how scripted ava's thing. Was. Oh yeah. Or if they just let her go, You know, How many

Brent: takes did they give? Did they let her just go and she just did something different every

Jeff: take. Cause I have this vision of her, like, dancing around, set practicing on people, you know?

And like Uhhuh having a good time with it. And because I, I, I did get the impression that she was having fun with, with it, which makes me cla You mean Claudia Christians? Claudia Christensen was having fun with it. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think that, and I think that makes me think they let her, let her ad lib on it quite a bit.

But she had one line in there that I just thought was great. She was like, Oh, tell me about your portfolio, . Where did that come from? What did, Wow. That's awesome. But, uh, the other one is that it, it branded as a new brand when it comes to sex as a result of this, that, mm-hmm. . I wanna start normalizing now.

I'm gonna , I'm gonna walk up to my beautiful wife and I'm gonna say, Hey sweetheart, tonight I wanna do it human style

Brent: I gotta be honest, Jeff, I never want to do it. Human style . That just is horrible.

Jeff: Right?

Brent: I might just wanna go with the old Lama style ,

Jeff: but I just love how they kept saying it. There's like human style, right? He, I'm like, Oh, that is, that is brilliant. That's, wow. Wow.

Brent: All right, Jeff. Well, I think we have reached that part of the show where we're gonna boil this all down and see if the show has any of that star trekky quality to it that we talked about earlier today. Does it have a deep moral message? Does it hold up a mirror to society? Yes, it does. Does it give us hope that we can be better in the future?

Probably not. Uh, to do this, I'm gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five Deltas. That's how Star Trek this episode is. And Jeff, you're gonna do this on a scale of zero to five star series, is to just how much we enjoyed the episode as a whole.

Jeff, I want you to go first. All right.

Jeff: I watch this episode twice as I do, I'm sorry. Yeah. On the second watch through. Oh, there you go. On the second watch through Uhhuh, I almost started skipping pa. Oh, I know. It happens in this one. Let me go to the next piece. Mm-hmm. , let me, let me go to the next. Um, I don't know, like, it's just wasn't, it wasn't a bad episode, you know, by any means.

This wasn't a, this wasn't a long night, you know, or long, dark night or whatever that one was that, you know, poor. Yeah. It wasn't that mm-hmm. . But it just wasn't good. It wasn't engaging, it wasn't exciting. I, I didn't enjoy watching Yvanova stumble over herself trying to be a diplomat. I didn't, I, I liked the acting that, um, Kalo and Jik were able to bring forward in their parts, but I didn't like what was happening.

Mm-hmm. in, in their roles. Um, this wasn't a strong episode at all for me, but, uh, I don't know. I think, I think I'm gonna, I had this one at this rating when I started. I'm just kind of weighing in my head if our conversation has tipped me at all, and I don't think it has. Um, I've got this one at one and a half star theories.

Wow. Yeah. I Being generous. Yeah. A little bit. And, and I think part of it is that I, I as offensive as Yvanova's solution was through our lens of today. Mm-hmm. , um, I really enjoyed what, exactly what you said, how it, I think she failed in her diplomatic sense, but she is next level in problem solving. Mm-hmm.

and in owning her problems and in Yeah. Having, you said having agency as an individual. She is a commander. Yeah. And demonstrated it through and through, I mean, she

Brent: stumbled into the right solution in this one. Mm-hmm. . Yes. Like, she didn't, she didn't push it, She just sort of stumbled backwards into it and then.

when she got to be herself. She's like, I'm gonna put down all this stuff and I'm just gonna be Ava and I'm gonna take care of business the way that Ava takes care of business. She was awesome.

Jeff: Yeah, she was great. Yeah. All right. Let's hear your thoughts on the Deltas. Okay.

Brent: Um, this episode was a very Star Trek episode.

Incredibly Star Trek, but it did it in a completely babble on five kind of way. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , like here you have Jaar having to quell his own people right from, from their own little uprising on the station. You have a vva having to negotiate very inappropriate negotiations. There's a commentary on human culture from the outside.

There's a mirror being held up. Like the, uh, specifically the way he talks about how we treat our homeless and the, and the underserved populations like that was just like, Oh my gosh. Hit me over the head one more time with it. But it wasn't done in a way that Star Trek would do it. This was done, like I said, in a Babel on Five Way.

And, and the best way I compare it, it's like, like the Babel on Five Way is this one's gonna take the message and it's gonna beat you over the head until you comply. Whereas Star Trek is just gonna talk you to death until you capitulate and say, Yeah, that's the right way. . Like, that's the difference. , you know that Lofi is gonna beat you, Star Treks is gonna talk to you about it.

Same outcome, just two different methods. So with that, Jeff, I'm gonna do something I've never done before. Okay. I thought long and hard about how I would do this. Do you remember in Voyager they had that sh that that the ship, the Delta flyer. Oh yeah, yeah. The shuttle. Right. And now, now our Deltas are the Star Trek Delta, Right, The Star Trek symbol.

But they had the Delta flier. Well, I am going to give this one because it was so Star Trek, but it was so Babylon. Five all at the same time. I'm giving this one. Five Delta Furies.

Jeff: Oh wow. Okay. Okay.

Brent: Five Delta Furies. Cause you know

Jeff: why. Yeah. No, I think that's great because one of the things we talked about way back, um, when we wrapped up season one was when we were gonna start doing the Star Furies, we talked about rating how Babylon five an episode was.

But like we still don't really know what Babybel on five is. But you're right, this is a, this is a great example of what Babybel on five is, but I think, I think the Star Trek messages are, are more than the Luma piece. You know, I think Jaar having to sleep in the bed that he's made, you know, having real consequences for your actions reminds me a lot of, um, the first duty when, you know, um, Crusher and the cadets.

Yeah. Try to pull one over on everybody and then someone finally speaks up and says, Hey, we messed up. And it's like, Yeah, not good enough. Um, you've been lying to us this whole time and now you're, you're gonna repeat your sophomore year. At the Academy. Um, again, a softer, you know, a softer Star Trek version of it here in Babylon five.

It's, it's, it's filthy and it's, it's hard to swallow. But yeah, this was, this was a deeply, deeply Star Trek episode.

Brent: Well, guys starting now here in season two, Jeff and I are ranking these episodes throughout the entire season. This is gonna be the absolute 100%, completely accurate and definitive ranking of season two of Babylon five.

Currently, Jeff, our ranking stands at number one, the coming of shadows. Number two, erase through dark places. Number three, all alone in the night. Number four, soulmates, number five, points of departure, and then they kind of go down from there. Jeff, where would you place this one? Acts of sacrifice within the ranking.

Jeff: Like I said, this is, this is not a strong episode. So I'm actually looking down below the top five right now. . Mm-hmm. . And I think a lot like you, I have to ask what would I rather watch, right? Mm-hmm. . And so when I look at this, I would watch Grow Pose before I would watch this one. I like some of the soldier stuff and they're like, Dodger and some of the things that happened to like the dark payoff on it.

But, so that takes me to net. Next is Revelations and would I rather watch this are Revelations And I think,

I think between this episode and watching Sheridan and his sister go at it for, what, half an hour or whatever? Oh gosh, it wasn't, Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna go with this one. So I think that puts this one, um, below Grow Pose and above Revelations. I think that's puts it at number nine.

Brent: Number nine. Yes. It does. It does. So for anybody wondering the. after the top five, which this doesn't change. Our top five after the top five is a spider in the web at six. Geometry of shadows, which was the techno age, which was awesome. Mm-hmm. , Uh, groos. I might have put this one above Gro post, but that's exactly in the range that I would've had it.

Mm-hmm. . So we're gonna go gro posts and then we're going to go acts of sacrifice, revelations, a distant star, all the unseen episodes of season two, and then the long dark .

Jeff: One day we'll get something in between.

Brent: I hope nothing displaces long, dark from the bottom. Cause that would've to be a bad episode.

Yeah. Bad

Jeff: episode. . Oh, brand. That's it for acts of sacrifice next week. So this is the other game we like to play, right? We don't look ahead anything. The next episode we're gonna watch is called Hunter Prey. So that's all we know about it, right? We haven't seen any

Brent: screenshots. Is that, just to clarify, is that.

Pray like praying to a God or pray like I'm going to eat you, pray,

Jeff: gonna eat you. P r e y. Okay? All right, Hunter, pray. That's all we know. So, Brent, what do you think next episode's gonna be about, Jeff? I

Brent: think it's time. It's time for a vo on episode. Oh, I know we've been saying this for a long time, but it's time for a vo on episode, a season and a half with this guy barely sprinkled in it's time for a KO centric episode.

And I mean, hunter prey, it's somebody's being chased, right? Like it's gotta be that. And I think it's Ko being Kosh, like just, they're the bad asses of the universe. And uh, they're going, Oh, maybe, maybe like Kosh starts going after murder. Oh yeah. Remember they had that meeting where he is like, they're not for you, or something like that.

And you know, Ko is gonna, is gonna uh, go do something, but he can't be successful because I assume that that's gonna be a long time running thing. So maybe absolutely nothing to do. But that's my guess. This is a Kosh episode and he's chasing

Jeff: someone. I like that. Cause then you have to almost ask like, who is the hunter and who is the prey?

Cuz Morden Will something or whatever. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Mm-hmm. . That's my guess. So my thought on this one, I gotta own for everybody. Like I look up the next one, so I have a little bit of lead time to think these things through Brent literally just heard it for the, for the first time, but, so I think I'm, I, we're gonna see Keer because he's still in the opening credits, I think.

Or Keer? Keer. Keer. Yeah. Yeah. No,

Brent: Kemmer was, uh, was, uh, the niece. Niece, Mike Michael's niece. Uncle Mike's niece

Jeff: from, Yeah. Yeah. From way back. Yeah. We're not gonna see her again. I don't think I'm You don't think? I don't think so. I'm okay if we don't. Yeah, I'd be, I'd be shocked if she got hired again. Yeah.

But we're gonna see the Keffer out doing stuff and he's gonna tap in, He's gonna start picking up some sort of like communication weird array thing. Okay. That's gonna tap him into some communication network. And he's gonna see Babylon five, where Babylon five shouldn't be. And then while he's trying to track that down, some weird race wearing helmets is gonna pop onto the screen and say, Get off of our calm channels.

And then that's gonna lead to, um, to some like gymnasium where they can end up in World War ii. The hero. . No, You know. Hey,

Brent: Jeff. Hey Jeff. This is not a Star Trek podcast. Touche.

Jeff: Star Trek podcast. No. So I think this one, I don't know what big storyline it's gonna tie to, but in reality, I think, um, there's going to be someone who, uh, sets up shop on Babylon five hunting lurkers.

Right? Like a Dr. Marose Island sort of a thing. But on, uh, is that the, the guy doctor? I forget, but you know, the whole human hunter thing. Yeah. Yeah. With lurkers down below on Babylon five,

and we'll find out right here next week. Thank you everyone for joining us. We appreciate it so much. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening or watching us, and pop over to Apple Podcast, Pod chaser Audible, wherever. Leave us a review. I love reading them here on the podcast. So, Brent, until next time.

Hey, Jeff.

Brent: Yeah. We should end this episode in the traditional way of

Jeff: my people. Um, are you, are you, uh, ? Are you

Brent: serious right now? I am. I am. Because I would like to buy you a chemically in offensive drink. . Thank

Jeff: God, . All right. Peace and long life