All Alone in the Night | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen.

[0:38] And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and, well, everything changed. Now, we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all of this stuff. There's no way we could have possibly caught the first time around. But don't worry folks we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series we're asking what this episode is trying to tell us is it holding up a mirror to society giving us hope that things can be better in future is it just telling us how to be better human beings to one another and we're trying jeff to see if there's any new messages this time around that we missed the first time around and you know why that is because this is not our first time watching this show this is our second time which means from this point forward everything is fair game anything from any point in the franchise we can talk about it whether it's part of the show outside of the show it doesn't matter there are no spoiler rules to this show whatsoever so if you have never seen this incredible series for the first time please stop this video right here right now i would never ask you to do that under any other circumstance stop the video right here right now go back and join our first watch get your first watch and when you're done with that join us for the.

[1:53] Second watch because i promise you you're going to want to watch it for a second time this week brent we're watching the episode all alone in the night for the second time do you remember what you thought about this episode the first time we watched it no here's here's what i remember okay all right i remember that that after gropos season two took off and we are now after Gropos so I must have liked this episode that's what I remember but if you ask me hey what happened in all alone in the night I got nothing for you wow nothing at all could not tell you one little thing I don't remember outside of I must have liked it because it was after Gropos how about you, i loved loved this episode every we i remember we got so into it there's this like dreamlike.

[2:41] Uh scene with sheridan and we just got all let's dive it's the it's the it's the it's the the the deep space nine ben cisco meeting with the prophets scene is what it is it is and we we got so into it it was great we got um pre talon talon there was so much in this episode that i just thought was was fantastic i remember absolutely absolutely loving it you know jeff the only reason why i can tell you that what i just said is because i went back and actually listened to our original episode and refreshed myself on what this particular episode was about would you care to know what i actually thought about it the first time because you know fully what you thought the first time it seemed to unless you have other news yeah yeah what what did we think uh well along with you i also really loved this episode i thought this episode hit it out of the park loved it you said jeff during the course of the episode you didn't care about the shadow stuff you in fact you doubled down because you'd actually mentioned this in a couple episodes earlier you said i don't care about the shadow stuff anymore.

[3:46] I want the earth stuff, the earth conflict. That's what you wanted. And you loved it because that's what this episode was all about was the earth conflict. You know, that makes so much sense why I was so disappointed in end game. When we got there, I was so invested in the earth storyline that I guess I wanted, I wanted the big bang, the big wham that the shadow storyline was all along. That makes a lot of sense. so and it turns out that uh the shadow stuff was mordor the earth stuff was isengard.

[4:19] You know like both there they're they're it's a thing one's clearly the climax and the big push the other one is the secondary mopping up right you said you didn't think we would see the stripe again did we ever see the stripe again nope i think we did we saw what we thought it was like a flash of them or something we saw like shadow version did we ever decide if the stripe are part of the minions of the shadows we we operated on that assumption but um it's one thing i'm actually really looking forward to when we get into those episodes to see what jms says about that um you did think apparently there's some head device in this particular episode you thought we would see the head device again i don't remember that apparently we didn't see it ever again you guffawed jeff you had your mind blown at all of a sudden there's three cast in minbari society.

[5:09] And I was like, yeah, Jeff, because several episodes earlier, I was like, Jeff, I had some stuff spoiled with like, it's not really a major spoiler, but I found some stuff out and I gave you the choice. If you wanted me to tell you're not, and you said no. And this was the thing that I was like, I know that there's three cast in Mimbari society. There's a worker, a warrior and the religious cast. So I'm glad you said no, because I really needed the marking of when did we as a viewing audience first get to know, not when JMS said it on the interwebs or anything like that. When did we when did the show first tell us so you also had a theory jeff we both had theories in this one you had a theory that general haig or guy general haig was a bad guy oh probably because he's played by robert foxworth it doesn't help his case at all i said no i said absolutely not haig is our like guidepost and here's what i said i said he's our general hammond you had no idea no clue no idea no idea it's a high bar by the way that's a very high water and hey listen And let's look at him and go, is he general Hammond level as we go through this? Is he that kind of a guidepost? Right. I really liked the episode. I said that I was really eager for answers and this one left me just not on a cliffhanger. I didn't think this was going to be a cliffhanger, but it didn't answer the questions I wanted it to answer, but it answered a lot of other questions.

[6:27] I was kind of upset but i was also really happy and satisfied with this episode which i think is how you're supposed to be about this point of any story yeah that's how you are through a lot of the episodes yeah and that's good right right which that's a mark of great writing i also believe jeff now correct me if i'm wrong this is in our notes isn't it from this point forward council chamber hello to our council chambers who's joining us live for the recording you might hear us reference them every once in a while here council chambers correct me if i'm wrong long outside of that one anomalous episode in season five this is where JMS takes over full-time writing duties of Babylon five.

[7:00] I believe I think this is it from this point forward he is the writer of every single episode I think I think you're right they're going to in three two there oh nope Andrew dude he said hello no that's a yes or no this is a yes or no answer not yet two more non-jam episodes this season all right fair enough fair enough you guys let us know when we get there i said that this was my crew looking at at the sheridan franklin ivanova garibaldi like this is my crew yeah you know yeah um and i said i don't need this crew holding back secrets from us anymore because there's apparently like a spot where they get right up to telling us and then they cut okay and i was like i don't need them holding back secrets this crew needs to tell me what's happening i need to know what they know i loved the idea that sheridan i don't know if you remember this this little tidbit jeff i hope you do because it made such an impact on the rest of the series sheridan was a plant for president santiago okay yeah he was planted on babylon five and he's been that the whole time and he's known it he's been he's been part of the part of the conspiracy thing that wasn't really conspiracy i guess i remember that now that you say it and it was like meant to make it clark think he was doing a thing or whatever but yeah i'm glad you brought that up because i don't know that anyone needed a reminder because that was such a bell you know the toll from that just rung through the entire series clearly.

[8:23] Right absolutely uh i had a theory jeff oh let me back this up i had a question about sinclair i asked if sinclair was also going to be minbari you know because he kind of took over sinclair's role he took over his storyline so is sheridan also going to be minbari and you pointed out a really astute observation i thought that's going to put a whole new twist on the whole star killer thing with sheridan oh that would yeah yeah that would have been obviously we know at this point sheridan is not minbari part minbari or even of valen's bloodline at least as far as we know i suppose jms could write that into this thing at any point but that would kind of make it a little weird for david and different things i would think you know yeah also speaking of minbari i.

[9:04] Was not okay with what was happening to the minbari to their society where they're they're re-weighting the uh gray council and how the the society seems to be going down the tubes because they're supposed to be our shining example jeff right we thought they were what humans should aspire to be right they're they're actually like what the vulcans should have been if the vulcans didn't turn out to be jerks but turns out the mimbari are just jerks as well weird how those reesee race reesees weird how those races those species who we hold on high really yeah their own development to do maybe there's a message in there somewhere maybe maybe maybe uh we get a we get a one-off character that we meet he's i think he's one of garibaldi's men if i remember correctly i think he's played by um one of the mortal mortal combat folks ramirez okay is his name and you and i both said like i will trade you a kefir for ramirez we really wanted him to stay not knowing it was going to be his only episode and we kind of thought it might be but we weren't sure is this the guy that they're betting the dodger game or whatever with or is that a different episode i think that's a different episode i think that's a different episode no i i think this is the one he's he's i think he's just one of garibaldi's guys um he he he is of asian descent i i remember that and i.

[10:19] He was, I'm almost positive. He was the guy in that Stargate episode where they went to ancient Mongol China and stuff. And he was like the chief of the bad guys. I think it's that same actor. And I wish I should know his name. He's super familiar. So much. For some reason, I thought he was in Convictions way down the line. You might be right.

[10:39] We didn't exactly spell it out. I'm just trying to remember what it is. But let's look for Ramirez. Nia's saying that I'm right in the Council Chambers chat. that in Convictions, season three, the guy in the bomb episode, that's who she said you're thinking of. So we'll have to find out who Ramirez is because you and I loved this guy and wanted him to be around for a very long time. We said we would trade a Kefir and a Natoth to keep Ramirez. A season two to Natoth, right? Like, let's be clear. Well, yeah, because you're also like, we've only seen her in one episode this season. Where's Natoth? We had no idea where Natoth is. Turns out we now know Natoth is in a Centauri jail cell. Not yet.

[11:13] Or she's battling something somewhere for right now. We don't know if she's caught yet or not. All right i had a theory okay i had a theory i had a theory i had a theory because the stripe come in they do the things with the remember they do the claw thing with their ship and they go up and there's all sorts of stuff happening my theory was this the shadows the nature of the shadows what the shadows really were was not this organic alien species but that the shadows were alien tech that or i'm sorry were the were the organic tech that's what the shadows were was it's the organic tech i guess gone amok and that's what the big war is going to be so i'm going to call myself i was three-fourths of the way right on that one you and i both agreed in this that the narden centauri war was just the appetizer for what we were going to get later nailed that saw it coming but then we said we would do something jeff and we never did it oh no we failed we said we're going to commit to doing this i committed us to doing this actually and then we moved on so i'm going to recommit us to doing this yeah with full awareness we may just move on and this will not actually happen but what we were going to do was we were going to take the video of the vision of sheridan's vision and we were going to do a full like shot by shot scene by scene breakdown of that thing and really look at it and see what's what going on with that that deal have i got some good news for you my friend oh no tell me just wait till uh i get to do my part of this.

[12:38] Awesome awesome awesome jeff that's all the stuff that i found that we had said we had a great conversation uh really just basically we just loved the episode so this was cool that was cool this was cool that was cool what did jms say did he love this episode too he really did there's a lot in this one and a lot of this i'm going to save for during the episode itself including.

[13:02] Breaking down that little vision sequence because brent i have from jms's mouth the maker's mouth himself. Okay. What all the stuff meant in that vision. And so we'll break it down after we watch it. Great. But he said, he says, in a way, talking about the dream, in a way, there are several Sheridans in that dream, signifying changes currently in the works, changes yet to come, messages forthcoming or unrecognized. It's a very reflective dream, which will grow clearer the deeper one gets into the show. You'll see at least one piece of Sheridan's vision decoded before this season's end okay remember sheridan in a distant star saying that he was feeling beached and abandoned his unsureness in taking on this post what if it was a mistake a number of his actions come into a clearer light once you know he was in essence checking everybody out and putting on a hard i'm a nice guy kind of attitude on purpose this is a really sheridan centric show one of the themes in this show overall is how you face life and how you face death. Ramirez, our guy, faced his honorably. In the end, honor and dignity are all we have. I found this to be kind of interesting.

[14:17] Kosh's voice starting to carry some emotion. He says, starting right around all alone in the night or maybe one before, maybe one after the memory fades. I took on the job of directing the voice sessions for kosh he was moving from a neutral delivery to things that had to carry specific emotions and implications for the future nobody else knows what all that stuff means or what it is so it naturally fell to me me being jms it'd be weird if i was doing that back then this i found so fascinating in so many ways there's all these phrases that we use as part of the fandom and we're just like oh that's a thing right that's a thing okay i love the origin stories for him he says this episode was meant to be an all-american toe-to-toe beat-em-up sort of thing lulling the audience into this false sense then big stuff creeps up and hits you like a two-by-four that's where the wham episode thing comes from getting a wham to the back of the head from a two-by-four there's stuff i brent will bring up during the episode itself so what do say we start watching that episode i say let's do it it's gonna happen right now for those of you joining us for the first time specifically thank you for being here.

[15:31] Pause. So it's going to happen now, especially if you're joining us for the first time. And if you are, welcome. We're really excited that you're here. But we're not going to just start talking about this episode. We didn't watch it a couple minutes ago and we're coming together to discuss it. No, Bren's going to pull it up right here and we're going to watch it together with you. You're watching us on YouTube. You're going to see the cut up kind of edited version of that, kind of the reaction video sort of a thing. If you want to see the full, the unedited version of that, we post those over on our Patreon page and that's at patreon.com slash Babylon five. First, the number five and the word first. And if you guys are catching up with us on an audio podcasting platform out there somewhere, hello, welcome to you. You guys are not forgotten. We have remembered you. Uh, listen, don't worry. You're going to catch the audio of us going through that. We promise it's going to make sense to you. You know, the episode in your head well enough, you'll know exactly what's happening. We want you guys to be in on that conversation, but you're also going to catch the full conversation on the back end of the episode where Jeff and I break down any new messages or any of that fun stuff that we have found. So Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. Now that we have a new leader in place, they wish to see me and discuss my... She just got called to the principal's office. Hey, come see me after your shift.

[16:53] Did you see the thing I did?

[17:06] It should matter in a big way. I think it does. In the night? Uh-uh. Never alone, Dylan. Never alone. Oh, he is a good guy, isn't he? He is. Description? Not much to go on. A bright light, turbulence. We've also had reports of at least one transport disappearing off the screens in that area. I'll go. I don't think you should do that, sir. This isn't a clear and present danger, Commander. It's just a quick look around to see what the problem is. I haven't felt space beneath me since I got here in January, and I miss it. Have you ever felt space beneath you? I remember that when we learned that piece, the flight pay thing. I'll be in and out in an hour. What could go wrong? What could go wrong?

[18:03] Marshall Teague, credited in this episode as the Narn. Have I mentioned recently how much I appreciate you, Lanier? Not really. But it will give us something to discuss on our trip. Okay, there's a scene coming up later. That interaction right there is foundational to the whole thing. Okay, fair enough. I'm going to say this right now. That is the moment right there. Lanier got friend zoned. I pulled together your escort, Captain. That's the moment. He will never get out of that zone. Yes, sir. We received word from General Hague's office that he'll be arriving earlier than he had thought. ETA, 1800 hours. See you when I get back.

[18:47] I love how excited he is right now. And then, like, oh, no. Man, I say you're full of it. The Dodgers will never... This is the Dodgers guy. Yes. Oh, this guy. That's Ramirez. Okay. Your diagnosis, doctor? Well, the patient is confused, delusional, unable to separate his natural sense of loyalty for his home team from the reality that they stink. Helen Keller could bat better than any one of them. Oh! You want to put your money where your mouth is? We had a lot of comments about the Helen Keller reference. I bet we did. It was a different time. I imagine on our first watch, I was like, stupid Franklin. Who does he think he is treating somebody like that and saying those things? You weren't, but you might have been that internally. Ready for launch. Watching it, I was like, I like that guy.

[19:37] I will wait, and I will pray for you, if you would not consider it presumptuous. Yeah no go ahead have a seat over here on the floor until later it's a tie to land okay stop survey one to survey two and four so episode two episode three of the whole show, delin looks and says don't call me that name don't say that specifically don't say that here yeah yeah right presumably he has not called her that since right there may have been some private interaction in the quarters or something but i kind of doubt it this is the first time he's called her that since that that's a significant thing on his part to say to her like for how he's building her up like he is her like hype man you know what i mean yeah and and he's he's like i am here and he like what i love about that is she's questioning whether or not she's going to get to stay on the set stay on the gray council right he's reminding her hey this is where you are you're on the gray council that's who you are right now satai i love that i love that i want i I rolled it back because I want you to listen to his voice as he says it, because I think it proves your point. There's not, there are, there are a lot of layers of emotion in how this line is read. It's a tie.

[20:49] Did you get that? Yeah. But he also, like, it's a she starts walking away. He, like, calls after her while she's already down the hallway a little bit. Spectral analysis, radiation, all looks normal. It's like, yeah, that's great. We'll see you later. No sign of debris. I love you. Do you want to go out sometime? Oh, you already left. No, I guess not. There's nothing much to see. What the hell?

[21:15] Uh-oh. Evasive action. Evasive action. What kind of ship is that, Jeff? That's the stride. Look at that. It's got like a big old nasty mouth on it. It looks very organic. Agent's in critical. Ejecting. I remember the ejection sequence. I don't think we see it again after this. That's a great way to do an ejection pod. Because what you and I would see is just they shoot the carob out of the cockpit. What without the captain? They just shot the whole damn cockpit out.

[21:46] Yeah, I think this looks evil. It's like a living doomsday machine. God, Ramir is in the heat of battle. No, we got to go do this.

[21:56] Captain! The one left alive to tell the story. They're going to die painfully. But seriously, why wasn't this Keffer? Where was the actor? You brought him in for this specific reason. But I tell you what, between the acting and the writing, they did such a good job because we're emotionally invested in this guy, and we just met him. We have to head back. Tell him what happened. It's the captain's only chance. Redirect maximum possible energy from life support to system control. You know, it does make me wonder what would have happened. Except for jump gate secret. What would have happened if JMS hadn't been so opposed to Keffer? If JMS would have embraced him rather than just do everything he can to jettison him from the show. Like he could have, there would have been some more opportunities for him to be used in a really significant way. Even if he still met the same fate at the same time. Yeah. you know um he could have he could have been used a lot more um and you almost kind of got to feel bad for the for the actor as well i was just thinking that you know but also the actor got paid for his time although probably not that much you know his residuals for the episodes are probably those checks probably aren't rolling in i imagine with the exception of like one he's not any real bangers like right well maybe a couple points start yeah ramirez he's a hero i mean this.

[23:16] Sheridan. I mean, Garibaldi, this happens to Garibaldi in a couple seasons, too. Pretty much. Except it's Sycor that does it to him. It's true, but still. We commented on the gooey, like everything here, like the gooey blanket. Everything feels very organic-y here. Yep, and just gross. Yeah, slimy. Shut up. My name is John Sheridan. Captain Earth Force That's not the thing you wanted to see come out of the seals No.

[23:53] Oh he's a little creeped out yeah i feel like you just turn your head and take it to the side like you're not getting in my eyes or my mouth i'm entitled to a hearing i'm allowed to defend myself that was before you disobeyed us you were told to wait before taking this action before becoming alien to us so we took a lot of umbrage with this whole thing uh-huh and frankly i still do i'm taking it right now also yeah right we made a great point like she was given the triluminary by this guy the the whole thing there is here it is go for it her whole impression i did this with the blessing of my government yeah which meant this guy and now you're now you're rescinding that and just hitting me upside the head with this come on now suzanne with a good call out it's ethan rain you'll know who that is your contact eventually changed more than your appearance the council has voted to remove you from our presence from this day forth you are, I like that mix of sadness and righteous indignation and anger. Right.

[25:08] Yeah, you're not going to want to see the Nine. No, you don't. Hmm? I've been corrected by the Council Chambers. Thank you. This is a warrior cast guy. We had religious cast guy before. Don't know where it's for. Sorry, Minbar, y'all look the same to me. You can at least tell me what you want. Can I, though? Oh, this brain device thing. Yes jeff that is a drazi you weren't sure first time around looks like a tuscan raider it does it's truth.

[26:00] The thing even looks like a keeper on some level, i'm going with the striver part of the shadow group yep and they're testing out some technology they put together i love that he's got this sword so is this actual yeah or is it just, marshall is playing a narn when we get actual talon he sits down has some orange juice and they talk about this moment ramirez don't try to talk you're gonna be all right okay i guess i won't.

[26:38] Love him. All the way to the end. Ramirez! Ramirez! Don't you do this to me! Damn it! Did all you could. Come on, heat. I heard. We finished going over the data record from his star frame. I get it. There's no reason for Franklin to have not done this work, but this is what it looks like when you have a conflict of interest to know where it came from or where it's going. Oh, Delenn, you're going to regret this request. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Also, she kind of needed to know. I stood beside you as one of the nine. I called many of you friends, and now you call me outcast. And we call you a lot of other stuff, too. You know I believe in the task that is before us, the great war that is coming. I have not turned my back on you. In trying to help, I have sacrificed all that I was and all that I am. I hate to interrupt Delenn, but Delenn, in the Council Chambers, gives us a different lens to listen to Narun's speech through. I'm really eager to do this. Okay. So just read that, and then we'll talk about it on the other side of it. You say prophecy tells us a great war is coming. Should not the warrior caste lead against it? The warrior caste cannot be allowed to set policy. Have you done any better? I was inducted into this circle. I was finally told the reason we were ordered to surrender. I didn't know whether to laugh or weep. If we had been told the truth, then we never would have surrendered. You do not understand. I understand that before me as a creature I do not recognize.

[28:04] One foot in two... I'm sorry to interrupt this speech and I want to go back because we want to listen to this whole speech.

[28:10] Right but his phrase there if we had been told the truth we never would have surrendered i think that requires and begs a lot of examination yeah what does that mean about the minbar the whole reason they stopped was because minbar do not minbari do not kill minbari right um there is something that echoes back to valen here with you know he's a child of valen because that's what the triluminary is supposed to say right yeah the fact that he would have gladly just gone on and obliterated them anyway the fact that he would know at least according to i'm not saying that all of minbari is religious and believes the way the religious caste does but in general you kind of feel like there's at least some of those ideas right souls are reborn whatnot that souls are being reborn into humans either the idea that minbari don't kill minbari has no meaning to you whatsoever and you don't care or you just don't believe you just like it's a yeah i hear you saying that and we're not going to accept that as truth and you're turning a blind eye to evidence that is clearly right in front of you it's an it's i don't know that strikes me as so interesting there jeff i think that we see throughout the series that the warrior cast would totally harm other minbari if it weren't for this societal stricture put in place what i think happened was valen showed up right and the minbari were fractured they weren't great he brought them together to prepare them for this this time he set the whole minbari don't.

[29:36] Hurt minbari thing and then it was just kind of like held and it's almost abeyance for a long time by the balance of the council in the last couple years we've seen and in the beginning that everything that valen said is starting to lose a lot of its luster with most everyone except for like the bigger names in the religious cast they're just like yeah this whole ranger thing this whole analyst shock thing is kind of a joke.

[29:59] I don't think this is, and they're slowly cutting it up. When Sinclair comes in and takes on the role of Ranger one, Noroon specifically is like, no. You got to do this stuff. I'm going to rub your face in these traditions. I don't believe in them, but I'm going to rub your face in them. Like they weaponized it. And so I think the, like what he's saying here is if we had a choice in the matter, who cares? Who cares? They're earthers.

[30:24] They're there. You have this mumbo jumbo that says they have a soul and this other mumbo jumbo that says that we don't hurt other men. No, no, we're going to, we're going to finish this off. Yeah. I don't think they believe at all. They being a very general statement, right? But how does that change? How does that undermine everything about how they've set up their society as a whole, but also how the warrior cast operates their own rules that they operate by? Like it feels like I hesitate to use the word slippery slope, but it feels like this is a really slippery slope toward just abandoning everything that you've held as true as a society and as a cast. We see that happening though later on in the series when the civil war occurs in those two, in those two episodes.

[31:10] But we see, we see a lot of that pop up that, yeah, everything that we've been taught, we warriors have been like, no, this is garbage. The only reason we're holding our end of the bargain is because this is the tripod that our entire society is built on. But the first opportunity we get, we're burning this mother down. Yeah. and our our guys over in the council chambers uh ron over here says warrior cast kills a lot of people uh a lot of religions during the civil war and he's right he's absolutely right ben is taking the side that basically he would have just said yeah we don't believe you and just killed him anyway yep that's that's kind of where he's going with that so yes um dylan dylan also mentioned everything naroon says is right right up until we would have killed them anyway yeah Like it all, it all tracks, you know, makes sense.

[31:55] So anyway, let's go back. Did you, did you wind this back just a little bit? Cause I want to make sure we're capturing this entire speech. Yeah. I want to get this here. And specifically I want to, I want to put the lens in place that Dylan did for us. Okay. We're going to think we're going to hear this speech and this speech was written in terms of Dylan being part Minbari part human.

[32:17] The Len who we know and love is hearing this through the lens of, he's talking about people that are trans and the trans experience. And so it's, it's a fascinating lens. I'm going to listen to it. I know I didn't the first time around. Yeah. And, and just for this, Jeff, you and I, well, I have this role. I don't know if you fully adopted it, but you've followed it at least as long as you and I have been together is we do our best not to comment or, or, or make declarations about things that you and I have no experience with. And being trans is not one of those things. So this is where just wanting to point out for Dylan, um, this is what she has experience with. Yeah. This is her, this is her saying, this is, this is her experience. And we would all do better if we would shut up and just listen to other people, tell their stories. Yeah. On that, I've shared the story here before, but one of my good friends, Anthony, who's trans, he, we had a great conversation. And when he got done telling me everything, I was just like, that's great, man. I'm super happy that you're happy and feeling good. i just don't understand and he looks at me he's like yeah because you're not trans yeah and i was just like oh that makes so much sense and so now i listen learn and allow others to have the experience so all right let's do this one foot in two worlds you are an affront to the purity of our race you have no home with either of us so please act out your fantasy be our go-between Return to Babylon 5 and stay there.

[33:46] So much vitriol in that. That's so ugly. Right? In the council chambers, I said, Nerun is basically the comments in a Facebook post. Is it tight, Dylane?

[33:58] Only Dylane from now on. Very soon now, I will be going into darkness and fire. I do not know if I'm fated to walk out again. If it is your choice to come with me, then I could not wish for a better or braver. Yeah. Oh, man. It just keeps stacking up. I remember watching this the first time and thinking, like, what a great mentor. It's popped out of hyperspace twice more. Long enough to attack ships from two different species. It's almost as if it's collecting specimens. Well, that helps. The Agamemnon, the captain's old ship. I thought they might be interested in lending a hand. She's the fastest thing in the area. If she can't catch that ship, nobody can. We've got the power. All we need now is the target.

[34:39] The times that we see the agamemnon pop up uh-huh kind of interesting are you saying that because you know something you're going to be pointing out to me here in a minute or is that just an observation jeff is making just an observation like later on like during the civil war when it shows up and we just keep waiting for it to be like oh it's a trap okay here we go do you know who i am the man in between is searching for you the man in between is that is that um lorian just watch just watch right now okay i'll roll it back you are the hand why are you here we were never away for the first time your mind is quiet enough to hear me why am i here you have always been here.

[35:18] Okay i'm gonna roll it back and then okay what is the thing on his neck he talks about that in the first episode talon sitting there when we get to the end of this the little crash pad thing on his neck we're like what is that thing avano's makeup is great you know who i am with the raven So, and also this is from the maker's mouth himself. This isn't me making stuff up. Okay. Ivanova with a crow raven on her shoulder. In Norse mythology, these birds bring news. This was setting her up as the voice of the resistance. Her, do you know who I am? Had to do with her being a latent telepath. So real quick, when is JMS saying all this? Do we know? Does it have any, any reference to when he, like, I assume this is after the show was done and had aired. So i got this out of the the script books which were published after everything went i don't know when he made all the commentary in it or not though okay yeah you're talking that you got it it wasn't in the script it was like in the little blur blurb that he writes before each one yeah.

[36:16] Finally, those things are coming in handy. Thanks. Was it Andrew? Thank you, Andrew. He turns into a red light. That has to be significant. Look at that face. Okay. Sheridan looking down at himself, looking up at himself. Uh-huh. This scene is mirrored in sleeping in light. And he walks into this same corridor. And we see the exact same scene play out then that we're seeing now. No. Did you go look? I haven't. No. I don't want to watch that episode again. And then here, coming up into this, Sheridan wearing the Psycor badge. Okay. This is meant to kind of telegraph him using telepaths as weapons in season four, doing the same thing that Psycor does to them. Okay. Basically saying, you know, you are the same thing. The man in between is searching for you. Why does Garibaldi have a dove on his shoulder? Oh, that's the last thing I'm going to share after everything, because it's intense.

[37:13] Okay. That's the mind-blowing thing, I think, in this. Okay. So the man in between is searching for you. He says a little bit of it is Justin, but really it's Sheridan himself. When he's with Lorien, he points out that Sheridan is in between the ticks and the tocks. The Sheridan he will become is looking for him and is waiting for him. So who is the Sheridan that's up in the rafters looking down? Is that the Sheridan who he will become? That's the Sheridan who will use telepaths as a weapon. Okay. You are the hand. Of? He just said that is pretty self-explanatory. I'm like, I vehemently disagree, Mr. Straczynski. That is not self-explanatory at all. Why are you here? We were never away. For the first time, your mind is quiet. What does Tosh have in the upper right-hand corner? Why am I here? You have always been here. So this is kind of nuts, I think. Okay. You have always been here as a comment on quantum physics and the fact that all Sheridans are equally real at the same time. Okay. so that's the vision now the big thing why did garibaldi have a dove on his shoulder hold on hold on okay you're not going to get away from a quantum physics comment with you.

[38:26] Because because the thing is is is quantum physics has to deal with your atoms and what he's saying is that all these different sheridan's make collections of atoms all exist at the same time which in a quantum realm there's a weird weird theory out there right now that whatever but it that there's only actually one electron in the entire universe. I've heard a little bit. It's just, it's literally everywhere. All at once is the, is the idea. Um, and it.

[38:54] In quantum i'm not going to dive into it but there's an argument for it um but the idea that these different feridans represent different aspects of his being and his personality because we are integrated beings as a as human as humans we are integrated beings you're not just one thing right we're billions this trillion that and this and that and you you have you wear all these different hats you have all these different sides to your personality you're you are the amalgamation of all of these things and you're integrated it's not separate right because it's a comment like that of all of these sheradans all exist at the same time feels more philosophical and metaphysical than it does atomic and quantum so it's i don't know i'm i'm probably way overthinking this this moment right now but okay my guess is that in 1995 uh-huh this is what quantum physics kind of understood okay maybe i don't know sure maybe i don't know the history of when that stuff came up i'm not super familiar with that all the time but okay garibaldi and the dove let's get there jms liked the idea of jerry doyle having to stand around all day with a bird on his shoulder no literally the only reason it means nothing it was just a thing against jerry doyle yep he just thought it was hilarious joe i love you that's a flex man you're so awesome that's so funny, that's so well yeah that's it wasn't a real bird though it was just like a little fake bird.

[40:22] Either way imagine i just have a fake thing on you the whole all day long the crow on ivanova's shoulder the raven on ivanova's shoulder looked real the thing on garibaldi's shoulder looked fake as all it looked like a decoration and a christmas tree man think of the flex though of like writing the script and being like hey you know it'd be funny, hey joe why'd you put this in here i don't worry about it don't worry about it joe you're awesome you're so awesome all right can you please clip this let this be one of our promo clips it's got to be like and i want to i don't want to tag joe tag and be like joe i love you like let that be that's awesome that's so good.

[41:03] Okay that neck thing's weirding me out though yeah it's it's a it's like a crash thing right it has to be it's it's part of his like parachute thingy or whatever yeah they're called the stripes over the years they have sent out ships to investigate defenses and acquire samples of any life forms they encountered the last expedition was into minbari space we dragged them back to their home world and made sure they understood the depth of their mistake can you give us the coordinates for their home world of course i could but it's not there anymore right, Oh, we broke the whole ship. Feels like we just jumped back into normal space. It was just another quick stopper. They're approaching their home world. Either way, there's not much time left. It's a pretty gnarly looking planet.

[42:01] That was a good sting right when the laser hit. Right. All fighters fired well. Only acquire external targets. Confirmed. Watch Brent for some lemmings coming out of the shuttle when it gets blowed. Lemmings? Yeah. Like actual lemmings? Yeah, they're going to get spaced. Four of them. This is our chance. Come on. Like little rodents? I think so. This is Ambassador Dilan of the Minbari. If you remember our last confrontation, you will release your prisoners at once. This is the best Dilan. Agreed. Yeah. Pissed off Dilan. We need more of her. Oh, from the video game. Lemmings from the video game. Come on. You can't die on me now. Sheridan is rescuing the future head of security of Babylon. Wait, he becomes head of security, right? Yeah. Like a general alarm. And he becomes the... No, he's just the Narn ambassador. Yeah, that's all right. Because number one becomes the security person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see the set i know like oh my gosh these guys that that okay.

[43:09] I'm just gonna say this the gray 17 monster the weird um drock monster that was all fuzzy yeah yeah and the infection monster and then this thing that just walked on screen this guy yeah out of the four that is by far the worst that's the one you should have apologized for joe right he just literally went to the spirit halloween store that's put this on gosh like look look at this fake looking stargate right here that's bad yeah survival positive, it says the street costume feels like he's in the mars uh 21 12 restaurant.

[43:48] Is that the lemmings yeah i can kind of see them it's kind of fun i love her phoenix on her helmet yeah a little bit dude hey hey avonava's symbol is a phoenix a bird that dies and rises from its own ashes how often do we see avonava die whether metaphorically or actually physically and she rises again oh live in her live in her truth we i mean we see it we see it at least once in tko right there's a breaking there and she rises again uh we see it in her history of stuff that happened with her mom and then her brother and that kind of stuff but even later on when she gets when she takes a bomb to the backside yeah and uh marcus goes in there and he heals her up and she comes back like she was a phoenix yeah and avon avon of us the last intel's ah yeah exactly she never dies ever ever or at least she doesn't stay dead she's john snow sorry did i spoil something for folks those arrogant sons of take them down.

[44:54] Dude those earth force cruisers are no joke does she know that, Sheridan got out yet? I don't think she knows yet. Three dots. Three dashes. Three dots. SOS. Hold your fire! It's the captain! She squeezed a lot of an emotional rollercoaster in a tight little container there. Four broken ribs and some internal bruising, but he'll make it. What about Ramirez? Made it back, but we lost him. Radiation poison.

[45:26] It doesn't make sense, does it? I mean, Why am I still alive and he was just a kid? It's not fair. No, it's not. It's not at all. Death never is. So there's some conversation in the chat, Brent, about the phoenix on her helmet. And it was brought up that it, and I always say your name wrong, but Kalinicus thought it was the double-headed eagle from the Russian coat of arms. So I looked to the internet. Read literally the next comment after that. It's great. It's awesome. Uh, hard to tell. Um, Phoenix is good too. And it is. And then the one right after that. Sorry. Yeah. Dang it. Oh yeah. You already got this. So yeah. I wasn't going to say it in the show into a microphone. I will let it be. Oh, you're going to dime me out. Totally. All right. It's the seal. It's the seal of the empire of Russia. Also Phoenix is good. Yeah. Yeah. We'll stick with that. I like it better. You have always been here.

[46:26] He's like Mike drop, bro. Not everyone back home buys the party line that Santiago's death was an accident. Really? Yeah, well, lately I've been having some real second thoughts about this myself. If Santiago's death was an assassination, we're talking about a military coup here. Not entirely, though they probably had some support from within the military, the intelligence community, the home guard, but they're not the ones calling the shots. It's Psycor, isn't it? Probably. The trick is proving it. We have to proceed very carefully back home. If we go too far, too fast, we'll be noticed. Babylon 5, on the other hand, has military, intelligence, and civilian sources to draw upon. Now, since they think you're on their side, they won't be paying as close attention. You're making an awfully big assumption that I'm on your side. Ooh, that's a good point. What makes you think I won't turn you in the second you walk out that door? Soldier's record tells a lot about a person. Not just what he's done, but how he's done it, and why. You're a patriot. You believe, as I do, that when we put on this uniform, we took a solemn vow. To protect Earth against threats from outside and from within. Mm-hmm. Foreign and domestic. It's...

[47:36] Decision you risk losing your entire career if you say yes worse still now that you've had a chance to evaluate your staff you have to decide if you can trust them enough to bring them in on this knowing that you're putting them in equal jeopardy oh i remember not much reward for being, trustworthy is it but it's time we stopped reacting and started acting now in 20 minutes i'm getting on a ship and heading for earth i'll try to feed you as much information as i can when i can your cooperation is essential if we're going to take back our government it's that That soundtrack, that little swell right there, real subtle, but right there. I need it now. I love that we don't get to hear what his answer was. I remember that drove me just nuts the first time around. Ever since the death of President Santiago, something unpleasant's been going on back home. You know it, and I know it, but we have to do something, or risk losing everything we hold dear. Now, we'll get some help from inside Earthdome, but the bottom line, if anything goes wrong, we're on our own. Anybody wants to leave now before you hear anything you'll have? This is entirely setting us up for the breakaway yeah i mean they like this is the moment they're deciding that if it comes to it they break away exactly this and do their own this is it this paves the road for the next two seasons i have to report do so nothing will be said i'm in ditto hey i never did know when to butt out we're with you captain wherever this goes however it ends.

[48:58] Music.

[49:08] So we just got done, Brent watching All Alone in the Night, and there's a thing that came up in our Council Chambers chat we have to interrogate right now. Yeah. We all know that Keffer, after he died in a shadow attack, actually I think it was well before he died in a shadow attack, but I'm wanting to tell this fun story, that he was, reincarnated as a young teenager who lived on Elm Street and was stuck in this horrible nightmare in what is arguably, I won't say the worst of the nightmare in Elm Street movies, but I'll say the most different. He was in Nightmare on Elm Street Part 2. Ramirez? Ramirez was in the first Nightmare on Elm Street. That's right. Alongside Johnny Depp. Yeah. Yeah. And that guy from Gray 17. Exactly. And we get Robert Englund in the end. The complete... It's a kefir sandwich with Nightmare on Elm Street 1 guy and Freddy himself on either side. Babylon 5 is a Nightmare on Elm Street sandwich. Oh my gosh. A kefir sandwich.

[50:05] Oh, man. No, that's incredible to me. And as soon as they said that, I'm like, I can see him in the movie. I totally remember him. Thank you, Ron. Thank you. Two things I want to bring up from my perspective on this episode. One, it just came up, Ron, in the chat. I hated Franklin for following along on the first time around. I hated Franklin for everything. He was great in this episode. I said it during the thing. His reaction to Ramirez in the thing was because it was a total conflict of interest. But it's not like there's a whole bunch of other options there to take care of somebody in an emergency. Right, right. And he was great. Second, you said, I thought, oh, Haig's going to go bad at some point. There's no indication of that. 100% it's because he's a bad guy in everything else he plays. That's it. Yeah. This was...

[50:52] I i really dug this one what do you what what anything you want to hit on from uh from this watch through hey i just want to reiterate what we said what a fan freaking tastic episode now i posited a theory last time that we loved this episode so much not just because of its own merits but because it's also coming on the heels of grow posts and we really did not like grow posts the first time around okay you and i liked grow posts a lot better last week than we did the first time around we did but i will say this episode still holds up so well such a great great episode all the way around sheridan being a plant okay we knew now here's the thing i think being a plant is a different i didn't feel like it was that big of a deal this time around because we knew that santiogo had planned and and handpicked sheridan to be the person should sinclair ever need to be replaced and when that happened his plan went into effect even though santiago was no more yeah but to sit there and say his whole job was to come in and suss out where people's loyalties are yeah and this was part of his job the entire time there's a whole deep layer that's uncomfortable now it's hard for me to say that this has absolutely no bearing on the future because they don't come back to this at all they don't really come back to this at all not like obvious not like up front but i think it underpins yeah so much yes the the idea that that sheridan has taken some time he's taken 11.

[52:20] Weeks 12 weeks whatever this has been six months there you go he's vetted these people for himself and he says i can trust these people and if they say they're with me then they're with me to now have i i said last time this is my crew this is sheridan's crew oh yeah and he's got them this is sheridan's crew so even though i i don't love this whole idea that he's been doing something from the beginning as a plant i will say i do think it's much more earned than we gave it credit for the first time around and i think possibly using the phrase plant is a bit too strong for what sheridan's actually doing you know and we've really seen it the whole time like we've known this is what what's up yeah the show the the show has played fair with us i will say that i agree i agree it's interesting you know i i agree with the plant being a strong word because i think what happens a lot of times is people are put into.

[53:17] And they're given jobs to do that just no one else. Hey, this is between you and me. I need you to do this and do that. And also do this and make sure you're reporting that direct to me for these reasons. Or you know what I mean? Like it's, this isn't totally out of left field. I think this is actually a very, I don't want to say standard thing.

[53:36] But it's not an uncommon thing at all. It just feels really big because we know where this is going and what a huge like plant flag planting this is and like like you said from here you either get blowed up or you secede from the earth alliance those are the only options moving forward yeah nia says over in the chat this was sheridan's secret mission which if you don't understand that joke go back and watch her for the first time yeah particularly i'm gonna say early season four ish right in this first couple episodes of season four jeff and i well brent specifically but jeff and i were having a bit of a secret mission lookout we had questions that's all yeah but messages brent honestly jeff i was so into the stuff of this episode the the what this like where this episode's tying into the entirety of the series and where we're going that's where my brain was at this whole time i didn't even think to look for messages so i fail in my job yet again um yeah because i was like you know breaking down the vision and doing all those other pieces so i don't know that i have any i mean i'm sure i could sit here and think about it but i wasn't thinking about it as we went through yeah how about you jeff what do you have i have a feeling that we talked about this in the first time viewing but sheridan and talon right talon was trying to kill him straight up and And he, we knew pretty early on that he was out of control and Sheridan beat him up pretty good.

[55:06] But like they sat there and they talked.

[55:08] They found common ground together. They were able to escape. And what we now know is this puts Talon on a path where he ends up arm in arm with Jakar changing Narn society. He ends up.

[55:21] The Narn ambassador on Babylon, like it puts him on a path. And it's really because in what could have ended, like Sheridan and the Drazi ended a little bit differently. And there was communication and respect that happened. That's what I got out of this one. Well, Jeff messages being what they are, and we could certainly pull a bunch more out if we really just sat here and tried to go for it. But things we don't have to just pull a bunch out of things. We don't have to go for is something that is objective, not subjective at all. That would be our 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of season two Babylon five for the second time, because the first time honestly is just a different watch. It's a different, it's a different set of criteria, different category. This is an all new one. Jeff, I'm curious. You get to place it this week.

[56:06] Where does all alone in the night land our current top five grow pose sneaks into the top five out of last week. My gut feeling is it'll be the only week. It finds itself in the top five. Number four is a race through dark places three is geometry of shadows two is soulmates and one is the coming of shadows jeff first of all where did this land in our first original viewing and where are you placing it now if you want to flip flop the order that you're going to do those please feel free well i'll say where it was it was the first time around it ended in position number six on this season for us the first time around just um just under the fall of night and just above divided loyalties okay this time though we've had a number of episodes that have come out here recently where we're like this is why we're watching this for the second time now this episode i there's definitely different color and shading on it because it's the second time watch but it doesn't change the episode for us like it has for other ones so you're right gropos will be leaving the top five this week. But the question is where it's going to land.

[57:11] And he had very, very high thoughts of it the first time around. I think that now understanding that vision more, I actually think less of it. It's such a meta analysis of the series. It's more like, hey, look at this cool stuff I'm going to do as I write this. Not necessarily like, I don't think that you could, as a reasonable viewer, track the things in that dream to where they land necessarily like you have to have the rear view mirror of having and and the view of having created it i think we really really put a lot of merit into that vision the first time around so brent this is going to land at number five just below a race through dark places this time around by gropos.

[57:59] Grab us never never grab us all right well there it is number five in the ranking with just 11 episodes on the on the thing jeff we've got what like 13 more episodes i know something like that yeah wow i'm interested to see i'm i'm really interested to see i think i think i might have placed this one a lot or two higher than you do yeah than you did yeah but it's not my week it's your week you're the one who places it not me and that's okay jeff that's going to do it for us this week on all alone in the night this one is in the books for the second watch we get to say goodbye to our man haig because we're never gonna see him again at all he gets mentioned though which i appreciate they tried to get him back but you know somebody got the scheduling there's another space show happening at the same time and you know they took priority for him i guess their paycheck might have been a little bigger or something not really sure jeff we got a brand new episode on week on deck next week. Not brand new. You know what I mean?

[58:55] Acts of sacrifice coming back around for the second watch. Jeff, do you remember what you predicted this episode was going to be about? Man, I do. And like, this has hit so many drums that we just beat to literal death on our first time viewing. I thought that acts of sacrifice was going to be the beginning of the end of the Narn Centauri war.

[59:14] That Londo would do something secret behind the scenes to kind of bring about at the end and that this would be the beginning of the redemption of londo malari the redemption of londo malari it's one of my favorite memes that people made of you i it's so funny it's so funny it's good what did you uh what did you predict i said that we were going to get the other side of the conversation that ended the episode with sheridan and the other crew we're going to find out what they were going to do um and we were also going to find out what the cost was to Lanier to stay with Dylan I also said these shows never pick up right where they leave off so we're probably not going to get that at all but we should because I really need to know what the rest of that conversation was I feel like we should that would be a great fan film just pick up right where Sheridan leaves off and now you have you know your janky casting of not really great actors you just carry on the rest of that conversation all right so here's the plan we're going to break away from earth when this happens that'd be fun but i left a dangling thread and you know how we feel about those dangling threads i kept talking about this thing between delen and lanier that i was going to bring up you did and i didn't do it so in that scene so i was building up and building up and i thought there might have been one that capped it off but it was at the end when they're on that minbari vessel and he's like i'm going to follow you no matter what okay jms said that as he was pledging himself to Delenn was the moment that he fell in love with her.

[1:00:41] And while writing it, he thought to himself, JMS did, oh, this could go really badly for him.

[1:00:48] He didn't know where it was going to go just yet, but it wasn't going to be great. It wasn't going to be fun. With that, no dangling threads here on Babylon 5 for the second time. Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for listening to us. This has been great. Enjoy watching these with all of you. We'll be here again next week. You don't want to miss it, so make sure that wherever you're watching or listening, you subscribe. If there's that opportunity to hit a bell or get notifications, do that. Leave a comment, leave a rating, a review, hit the stars, do all those things. Please, please share this show. Let's continue to grow this great community and get other people to join us on our second watch through of Babylon five for the second time. So with that, I'm going to wrap up. I'm just going to get out of here and thank you all for being here. And, um, Brent, aren't you supposed to cut me off? What? This is the thing we do, right? Like every week, say goodbye. You cut me off, dude. I'm so, you know, I honestly, I was just so caught up in thinking about your ranking and everything you were just saying about the Lynn and Lanier and, and all that. I completely forgot to do the wrap-up portion of this. I failed again. Twice. Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Totally. I can. Totally not the first time that you've screwed this up. Look, I got it. I got it. You ready? Hey, Jess. Stroke an H, man. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.