And Now For a Word

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and normally I'm watching Babylon five for the first time. But Jeff, after this episode today, I feel like I've now watched it for the second time, at least all the episodes we've seen so far.

Jeff and I are two veterans Star Trek podcasters that are watching Babylon five for the first time or the second time, depending on where we are in the whole thing. And we're searching for Star Trek, like messages within the series and trying to decide just how much we like this

Jeff: series. And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are Star Trek podcasters.

So those references are gonna make their way into here. So we play the rule of three. That means each one of us gets three references to Star Trek, up to three, and that's it. Three, one of those plays, no substitutions. Exchanges are refund, but we get an almost unlimited amount of comments. Emails and reviews from our incredible community out there.

And I want to kick this off, Brent, with a five star review. Yes, it's on Apple Podcast from Na Sham Na Sham says, Started out feeling like two trek bros. We're gonna snicker at B five Wall mispronouncing. I'm gonna try and mispronounce these here. Gcar Lenir and Ivan Nova's name, but stick with them. The focus on comparing to Trek leads to some unique responses to some episodes and near the end of season one, they started really appreciating B five for itself, plus hilarious guesses about the story arcs.

True. All of that is true

Brent: and we only one day find out just how hilarious those guesses really are, but we're glad you guys are enjoying 'em. That's why we do the show and we got for that review. That

Jeff: was a great review. Got another five star review. Oh

Brent: yes. Wait, Jeff, I'm sorry. Are we Trek

Jeff: bros right now in this moment, wearing our Star Trek t-shirts and what we said in the pre-show, if you're listening to the audio version of this on YouTube, we have a little, You're pre banter.

You're so much, you're missing so much. Yeah, you should check it out. It's good. But yeah, I, I think right now, in this exact moment, we are Trek bros. I'll take it. It's not a reference, but I'm gonna give us, Doesn't count, but that's, it's just for what, It's what we're bringing to the table today.

Hey, play the thing again. I'm totally gonna play it again. Which thing? I have a lot of things over here. Almost as many as a centi, you know, let's just

Brent: pick one. It doesn't matter at this point.

Jeff: 3 3, 1 of those plays, No substitutions. Exchanges are really refund. But I'm gonna play another one because I'm gonna go back to our five star review.

Oh yes. This one from our buddy goes under lounge lizard. , He says,

Brent: Hey, I know that name. Yeah. Norman, I know

Jeff: who this is. Yeah. Let's stop. Norm, thank you so much for this one. He says, I've been a fan and this one we talked earlier about insider stuff or whatever. Mm-hmm. loaded. This review is loaded with it gonna go right over my head, but for those of you listening or watching, you're gonna be like, Oh,

Brent: that's good.

You know? That's good. Okay. Here's the thing, if you can do it artfully, I'm gonna be okay with it. And if I know Norm, this is so skillfully crafted, it's gonna be amazing. I'm, I'm on the edge of

Jeff: my seat. Well, and frankly, if you can do it in a five star review, that's, uh, it's a great place to do it. . Yes, it is.

Says I've been a fan since the beginning. Not in the beginning, but since February, 1993, when the P 10 Network released the gathering. Yes. With the Stewart Copeland. I've participated in, seen and heard many Babylon, five blogs, vlogs in podcasts, many of which I've enjoyed. But what I really love about these guys is the joy I hear in their delivery and the honesty in their critiques.

There's an art to having fun with a review, but also being true to the critical analysis. So if you're a fan of Babylon five, I urge you to give Jeff and Brent a chance. I think they will surprise you. Even for old first one, fans like myself. Mm-hmm. , I'm jealous that they have so much ahead to enjoy and discuss.

Brent: Norm, thank you for that. There are definitely a few references in there. I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but, uh, I really appreciate that and coming from you especially, that's very high praise and, uh, Jeff and I are grateful for that. I, I don't know, I'm speaking for Jeff. Jeff, you might be like, Screw this guy.

But I think. I'm

Jeff: probably safe in what I just said. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. I've a tremendous amount of respect for Norm and uh, it means a lot. And I also appreciate that he quoted and I air quoted on the read, he quoted some of the the things so I could at least give it a little emphasis when I read it so people were like, Oh, that's a thing.

So there you go. Well done, sir.

Brent: Well, Jeff, you know, along with our game of the rule of three, there is another game that we like to play when we get to the end of these episodes where we try to grasp what next week's episode is all about without actually having seen it or looking at a thumbnail or reading the show descriptions, which usually aren't that helpful.

Anyway. And now's the time to pay the piper, my friend. It's time to look back on what we said last week was going to be this week and see how right we were. Jeff, I would like to go first.

Jeff: you. We both, we, we, we really need. We nailed this 98%. Like all, all the way. Right. I beat

Brent: for beat. I basic, I think I basically said that this was, um, Did I, didn't I say this said something to do with like a carryover from the store and mm-hmm.

like it, it was a commercial and then you just to replay that whole conversation. Then you were like, Yeah, but what if it's like, you know, a mockumentary type thing or documentary where they send a journalist crew over to the station and they're interviewing people and we're getting things, We're getting the story through those eyes.

And I was like, Yeah, that makes way more sense. So high five to you, Jeff,

Jeff: but frankly, yeah, frankly we both got it cuz there was some really weird sponsorship stuff going on. Yeah. In the whole thing. And then, Yeah, it was a ary, it was a reality show. Mm-hmm. , it was all of the things. We guessed what it was about.

And basically you can go listen to our guests and that's gonna be. I don't know, 70% of this episode. , Yeah. Today. So

Brent: good job, Jeff and Brand, but mostly Jeff. So, uh, with that, just to actually see how close we were, Jeff, I'm so glad you are the one to do this this week. Would you please be the one to remind the folks out there what this episode actually was all about?

Jeff: Coming up next on Babylon five for the first time, a special feature. It's 43 minutes of 36 hours on Babylon. Five.

Brent: Wait, I'm sorry. Stop. Stop. This just occurred to me, Is this episode

Jeff: 36? Oh my gosh. Let me. Uh, cause if this is

Brent: episode 36, that is one hour per episode that we've had so

Jeff: far. , this is episode 37.

So we, this is our 38th episode. It's our 38th. Yeah. But if we're in

that

Brent: order, you know, there's some, some

Jeff: con collaboration. Well, we can call it the 36th cuz the gathering is actually episode zero. Right. So this is our episode. So

Brent: this literally is 36 hours of B five. And here we are. I'm

Jeff: so sorry. Did you put that together?

No, not at all. I

Brent: just got that. I'm so sorry I completely interrupted your deal. Go

Jeff: back to doing your thing. No, it's really good because last week you brought a bunch of math and now you're bringing more numbers. It's fine. It's, it's confusing to me, but it's still really cool. Okay, back to the recap. We get an inside edition style mini-documentary slash news expose.

In this one, The wildly charismatic Cynthia Torman is broadcasting her attempt at the Pulitzer Prize or whatever they've got in the 23rd century and we get to watch along. And yes, by wildly charismatic I mean that she is totally bringing the O'Reilly Factor front and center as she and her crew are approaching the station, a narn ship attacks and destroys a sent ship right from go.

It's clear this is not gonna be a fun day to day lay in the life kind of story that she puts together. Lando is screaming that the Narn attacked them in neutral space while your car claims they were transporting weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, that probably had a different sound to it back in 95 than it does.

Torman Intercuts interviews with people on the station and the head of the Senate, Babylon five Oversight committee com, community. Wow. And that one again. Go. We're gonna go back. Torman Intercuts interviews with people on the station and the head of the Senate Babylon five oversight Committee. Senator Qure from the Qure interview.

We learned quite a bit about this station from Earth's perspective, and Torman shares some as well. There's a 41% disapproval rate. Apparently this expenditures are astronomical. He claims that despite the need for Babylon five when it was first rolled out, Earth has made a lot of advances technologically and militaristic, and now could give them inbar a run for their money.

Now you remember them inbar, right? The ones that only. One single ship in the entire war, the ones that were like three tech ages ahead of earth and decided to shift from a domination victory approach to a more diplomatic one in the intergalactic game of Civ six that we're playing well. Yeah, so on top of that, this senator's pretty wishy-washy on whether he thinks Babylon five is worth it or not.

Torman interviews Sheridan, he paints the station as necessary from a military economic and diplomatic perspective. Garabaldi, who just doesn't want to get fired for his interview, Delen, who is overcome by emotion Del Vitos. Remember that guy from by any means necessary? Yep. He's still checking all the stereotypical blue collar worker tropes.

Then we get Aveva who responds to the question that there must be more to her story with Yes. And Franklin who gets all passive aggressive, high and mighty as he wax his nostalgic about well, kids being kids. Hm. But the Nan and Sent situation is escalating through all of this and it's escalating dramatically.

It turns out that yes, the sent have been using Babylon five space to transport and transfer heavy weapons. This leads to an embattled council session and eventual standoff between a Sent and Nan Battle Cruiser and Babylon five.

As Torman Interviews Lawn and Jaar, we learn a lot about how they see themselves and how they came to be. Lawn sees himself in the Centar as benevolent, trying to help the poor agrarian Narn. While Jaar grew up with his father working as a servant and a cent home, when he spilled hot Jola in the mistress of the house, he was strung up for three days and died.

He urge Jaar to fight and to be all the things that he could never. The standoff ends in tragedy. The narn destroy the sent ship at their ship is damaged and destroyed when trying to open a jump gate. Like it or not, Earth is a lot closer to involvement in this war than Sheridan or anyone else wants to be.

The episode ends with Torque men saying that she believes Babylon five should be given some time to show its value. She asks everyone if all the hard work, the fighting and the tragedies are worth it, and nivan us sums it up best with the answer that has served her well. Yes, Brent, what were your first reactions to, and now for a word, Jeff,

Brent: how, how do

Jeff: you feel about clip shows?

I, um, I understand that they played a role back, like in the eighties and the nineties, you know what I mean? Like, there was a, there was a need at

Brent: the time. So this episode, this episode did something I've never, ever, ever seen before in my life and I really respect it. This was a clip show. Without showing any clips, but that's what this episode was.

It was a clip show to re that. All it did was just tell us everything that we've known from the last, I'm gonna say it, 36 episodes. It's recapped all of that and brought us up to speed. Now I get it. And, and, and this one completely feels like a push on jms by the studio. And I've, I've used that twice in a row now, two weeks in a row that the studio has pushed stuff on.

Jms. Um, and you remember how last week I said that I felt like Ava, um, the, the conversation between her and Sheridan was like a lift between JMS and the studio execs. Mm-hmm. , I think the conversation between Ava and the name of the news Anchor Lady Torman. Yeah. That one. God, that feels like that's a, Yeah,

Jeff: that was very words, very intentional, I think.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. . Um, but that conversation between those two kind of feels like j I wonder if Ava is like a mouthpiece for jms Hmm. In this show, you know, like, Yeah. He just kind of says what he's thinking about everything. And, uh, I, I feel like when she's sitting there going, Okay, well here's this, this is what we've got going on.

Yes, it's fine. This is who I am. And, and then she's like, Is there more to the story? And he's like, Yeah,

It's like, That's great. Go watch. It's, go watch

Jeff: it. Like, it's a, it's a great point though too, because I think when Torman does go to question her, like, it's so like the, the perky and energetic I, Ivan Ivanova, like she. Harsh twice in a twice, and I, and I almost like, I could see that, like the studio being like, Oh, and your Babylon five, uh, your little, your little cute little thing, your alien thing, you know?

Tell me

Brent: about that. Yeah. Yeah. Ivan Nova. Ivan Nova. Although I got, I did get a little miffed because what I fully expected her to do was to correct her and say, No, it's a vava or somebody. I expected somebody to call it out. Yeah. But they let her get away with it.

Jeff: Well, I think Aon let her get away with that crap.

She knew it was up and she was just like, I mean, I could waste my breath or I could just like wait for this thing to be over. So

Brent: overall, um, I actually have a lot of respect for this episode. It did what it needed to do. It did it in a super creative way. I watched this episode twice before tonight. The first time I really enjoyed the episode.

I thought it was so cool the way they did it the second time. I think I was falling asleep.

Jeff: It doesn't hold up to a second viewing, cuz I had the same thing first time I watched it and I was just like, Wow, this is mm-hmm , this is cool, this is, this is great. Yeah, I learned all this new stuff and then I watched it the second time and I'm like, yeah, no, I really didn't

Brent: actually.

Right. Yeah. No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say we learned anything. I mean, if I could recap this episode, it was, okay, here's everything that's happened up to this point and Oh yeah, we are actually in the middle of a full blown war between two of our, of our major powers and Oh yeah, there's also Mars and there's also Cycorp.

That's a thing. You got the earth first thing going on over there. Here's every single one of your people that's on the DVD cover and what their motivations are. And here's a little bit about the station itself. Matt, that's the episode, Jeff, that there's, there's not a lot. I mean, I don't know. You said you had more notes than I do.

There's just not a lot for me out of this episode to, to grab onto.

Jeff: I think we got some deeper dives into a handful of things. Like there's some nuggets we definitely got out of this, but I, I've got some good notes. And when we get to the end, to the recap, I actually have quite a, I have a lot of thoughts

Brent: there.

This was, this was, I will say, I think this was one of the more Star Trek episodes when you, especially when we get to that and we start talking about a hope of the future, right? Sheridan's whole speech at the end was, here's why we should have hope, right? They say it in the title every day, It's the last best hope.

Like there has to be hope hoping this show, right? So,

Jeff: although Ava rebranded it last week with, it's our last best hope for a quick buck in me, right? , right? That's, maybe that's all it is.

Brent: So Jeff, take you, whatever you got Dan. Uh, yeah. So help me out on this

Jeff: episode. This is a, so I like this, um, I like this.

TV storytelling device, you know, of like doing the, But to this point, I don't think it was very widely used. Mash had done it a couple of times and really well, when they did it, like they, they brought in like actual news footage that they had for, for background stuff, but, and then Saved by the Bell, I think might have done it before this.

They did one, it was like a, looking at Zach doing, I think he was running for class president or something and mm-hmm. , they did a version of this. But I like the, the concept and it went on because I, I think, I'm gonna say because of this episode, there was a Buffy, the Vampire Slayer episode that was like this, and there was a Battlestar Galactica episode.

They, there was a Stargate

Brent: Sdwan episode. Oh, really? There was, it was a big momentous episode like this. Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. So I gotta believe that those wouldn't exist without this one. Like, like Babylon five is really held in high regard for being the first, as like a serialized TV show and things like that.

Sure. But I think this is a big deal too, you know, but. But also like . It just, I don't know. It was trying to be stylistic with some of the, like we're get when Qure, the senator and Torman were talking to each other, that was so clearly recorded at separate times. Like they weren't, they were not in the same room and it was so clear.

Mm-hmm. , when Torman was talking to Len and even Wao, I think they had like, uh, a different film style on

Brent: Dalen. I, and I assumed, I assumed that what we were seeing on Torman was our regular camera and what we were seeing on Dalin was her camera . So it was whatever filter they had to make it look like it was coming from the documentary camera.

Cuz they're not gonna have that on Torman. Yeah. They're gonna have that on Dalen. That's what that, because I noticed that and, and that's

Jeff: what I assumed it was, was a neat idea. It did not work. It looked awful, I thought, and it, it pulled away for me. So I, I, I was just thinking about a couple things, like I thought.

I thought Torque Man's performance was terrible. It was awful, but I think it was supposed to be, you know, like we were supposed to not like her. She was totally a hundred percent Bill O'Reilly and especially Bill O'Reilly from Inside Edition through this. But I went to notice that the, the director, cuz you gotta, when you look at performance, you gotta look at the director.

And it was Mario DeLeo who directed this. Okay. He also directed The Long Dark, which is our least favorite episode almost of Babylon five. Really? Yeah. And he got a terrible performance, you know, out of like great actors Yeah. In, in that. And so, I don't know, I feel, I feel like I, I like this episode, but it has so much working against it, just in, in how it was put together and then what it actually accomplished.

Like, I almost think it was almost like, you're right. Like the studio was like, do this thing. And he is like, Okay, there you go.

Brent: I, I'll give you another reason. And, and I did note. This episode was written by jms, and we've been told, and we understand that JMS usually reserved the big stories for himself.

So I kept waiting, like for something big to happen here. And the only thing that I could think is, we're on the precipice of something here, Jeff. And this like, I don't know, I don't know if we're watching this in the correct order or the way that JMS intended it. We're we're following our buddy's order that he suggested.

So, uh, shout out to John. You're awesome. But this would be the kind of breath you take in a 22 episode. Season 22 is a lot of episodes. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? And, and not all of 'em can be bangers most of the time, but 22 episodes to stop, take a breath, let's review particularly for the new people who've just joined in mm-hmm.

Jeff: especially in 95, where it's who they

Brent: can't go binge. If you missed the previous episodes, you can't go back and watch it and say, Let me, let me get it. You know, so to to pause for a moment. Catch everybody up because of what's getting ready to happen. Like, I actually see this as a good sign that season two is about to turn a corner here, and I really hope

Jeff: that I'm right about that.

Well, I think given the episode that's next, Yes. I gotta agree. We're about to roll, start rolling downhill. Like the roller coasters reached the tipping point sort of a thing, right? And, and it is, and I think this, it did ratchet up the sent darn thing, like Earth is on the precipice of actually being involved in this war.

Now Jaar even outright like said, Hey, with the help of Earth, we can do these things now. Like that's a pretty big deal. Mm-hmm. . But I think I, I, I, I have a section of my notes that are just things that we know now about Earth and Babylon. Five. Didn't know before. So, um, Earth has put outposts and colonies on 24 worlds in 14 different solar systems.

Cool. Mars is apparently the only trouble spot. I thought it was interesting how they, the, the words they used though, right? Like, uh, the terrorist attacks on the earth. Loyal maj majority, you know, like, they're definitely trying to paint the, uh, the, the, what was it? Mars first group is just straight up terrorists.

What else? Um, Babylon five is eight. It's over eight kilometers long. There's 6,500 Earth Force personnel on the station. Mm-hmm. in the last, uh, looks like two years have been 50 deaths by violence on the station. Well, of course,

Brent: because they could just walk around and punch each other. Yeah. And beat each other down with a wrench.

Jeff: You know what interview I wish they got was Netta, not season two Netta, but season one. Like get her one on one. Just Let let Torman go to work on Netta and see how that works. So

Brent: funny story just about that real quick, Jeff. Uh, you told me last week that the actress that played the lawyer was the Toth.

Mm-hmm. , right? Well, I, I went to watch this episode, um, for the second time, and I turned on the, the, I had it on the TV downstairs and, and I like, like I, I kind of had it going and then I had to run to the next room for something. And when I came back, she was on the screen, like the TV had just started playing and I didn't necessarily realize it.

Mm-hmm. and she was on the screen. I was like, Oh shoot, it's gone to the next episode. And she was in the next episode. I was like, Oh no. But I sat and watched her for a minute. I was like, Oh, that's so the original Mattau. Yeah. Oh, she's amazing. I'm like, this seems really familiar. I realized it was actually last week's episode, , who was playing, but I was like to just to, I wanna come back just to give my stamp of agreement to what you said about her.

When you realize that it's her, you're like, Oh, she's so much better now. Yeah. And I kind of want her back in the show. Totally.

Jeff: Totally. Yeah. She's so good. Let's see, what else? Um, first commercial that came up was for Interplanetary Expeditions. That's the group that funded, uh, Duckies infection thing. And infection.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's still a thing. I noted that. And then I think the other, uh, the other big one out of there was that, uh, they've, they've made an office of morale on earth. Huh. I think I heard about that in a little book called 1984 . . Yeah. That, that stood out pretty, pretty big. And then there's the Cyco commercial, but I think that could be a conversation of its own.

Mm-hmm. , did you catch the message in the Cyco commercial? Which one? The subliminal message? No. Uhuh. Oh my gosh. So, okay. I, I, I'm gonna have to send this over to you. I, I, I get, like, I went through so much work to like, frame by frame. Go through it so I could see Oh, the thing that like flashed up. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh yeah. What was that? So it, uh, so I, I, I got it screen, I screen captured it. So I'll put it out on, uh, on uh, on Twitter. Okay. For people on at Babylon first, I'll send that out. But it just says over the top, the, the cy core is your friend trust the core

Yeah. Okay. Right. And then did you recognize little Johnny. He looks familiar. Why? So I,

Brent: I'll tell you, I didn't think too much about it. So you

Jeff: that was one of the parts where like leading into that commercial is kind of where I started to phase out at one point where I'm just like, okay, oh this could, and it came back and I'm like, Is this a flashback to John Sheridan?

Like, and they're talking about, Hey, people pick on me cuz Oh no, it's just a commercial and it's a commercial. Um, with a little kid who, if you remember in the next generation episode, Disaster was promoted to be a science officer in the Turbo Lift with Picard and the other kids because he had a science project with Mods.

He was that kid. Good use of a reference there, Jeff. Yeah. Thanks. It was, uh, it was kind of a thing. But, uh, but then the scariest thing out of the, the just kind of the stuff of what we know about Earth and what came outta the newscast was near the end when Senator Qure says to Torman, Thank you. I'm so glad you're okay.

We need all the good reporters we can get. Like, that was dripping with like villainous, omen. Mm-hmm. , you know, ominous kind of stuff when he, when he did that mm-hmm. and hit pretty close to home in this world where fake news is still a thing that people use to like stifle conversation and, and communication.

All right.

Brent: I, I picked up on a few other things. Yeah. Uh, we got KO's last name. Yeah. Ne

Jeff: is that his, like, is that his maternal, paternal family? Yeah. Well, I mean, it

Brent: could be a last name. It also could be like a title. Just the way they do ti Like a sati, a title Neuronic cost neuronic or whatever. Um, I'm gonna assume it's his last.

Interesting that Bolan have last names. Yeah. Little energy beings or whatever they are. Uh, by the way, Kosh Ning, right out of that scene, .

Jeff: Nope. That proves, that proves the Bolan are on a different level than we are.

Brent: Right, Right. He was just like, Nope, nope. Um, Franklin's friend spaced himself, which I know was supposed to be a real sad moment, but it made me chuckle.

Like he actually spaced himself. Sorry, that he died. And then I got wondering, like, in real life, Starship Space Station world, people accidentally spacing themselves has to be a

Jeff: thing. Right. It's just a button. It's just a button. Like you,

Brent: it's gotta be way more secure than that. If that's the case, like,

Jeff: well, Torman even said after, well the airlocks on BA one five are much more secure than that.

Mm-hmm. . But seriously, who, who tells that story in an interview like that? Like, like of everything possible. He could, he could talk everything he could have said. Mm-hmm. that, that, and not only did he do it, but he just had that whole, like, even the lighting was dark and he was just like, You know what? They don't tell you about, they don't tell you you don't die right away.

Brent: Well, he was tired. You know, here's the thing. I gave Franklin a little bit of a pass on that whole thing cuz he was just dealing with all the, the blowout of the, the ships blowing each other to hell. And he's, he's at the end of a long shift and just feeling down and it's taking its toll on him and they're sticking a camera in his face.

By the way, Sarah's sticking a camera in your face. They did lend dirty in this episode. Oh yeah. And here's,

Jeff: Oh, go ahead. Before we go there, just really quick, because I bag on, we, we beg on Franklin a lot, but I have something very nice I wanna say about Richard Biggs, the actor. Okay. In that scene right after the, in the, in the blast and, you know, they're just triaging people left and right, Uhhuh and torque's.

Like, Hey, Dr. Franklin, Dr. Franklin. that was a one shot, like uninterrupted one shot deal Uhhuh, and he is spouting off all the first aid stuff. Getting that was amazing. Like what it took for him to do that scene. Like I, I cannot stand Dr. Franklin, but I am all about bigs. Hmm. He was great. Okay.

Brent: Yeah. So you remember last week Sheridan's walking down a corridor, dark corridor by himself and he gets bumped into dude pick pockets.

Him, right? Yeah. Okay. Dalen is having a one-on-one interview with this person. All right. Dalen is a major ambassador. Major. Mm-hmm. ambassador to this station. Sheridan is the commander of the station, Delin. Where is Lin's? Where is linear in that moment? Where is her communications director, her PR person, the person that this guy had, that this lady had to go through to set this interview up?

The person who's standing right off the side, who is ready to step in at a moment's notice, should bad things happen. Because when Dalin starts having this moment, she needed Dalin, did not have the ability to get up and walk away like, like she needed to, and the other person didn't have the wherewithal.

I mean, why would they turn that off? Like, that's gold. That's that's what they want. Oh, totally. But I get it. This is just a TV show. It's not real. It's fictional. I, I understand all that. Sheridan's not walking down to Dark Corridor by himself. He's got, he's got staff with him. He's got people that are going places.

There is no reason that his quarters or wherever he's going requires him to walk down that hallway. Ever. Same thing with Dilin here. Mm-hmm. . And it kind of

Jeff: bugged me, like it bugged me a lot. So, I have two sides of a coin thought on this one. Cause one is like, how do you be an ambassador? How without, without having any she in the council, Like she spoke great and she had ideas and she was interjecting herself.

But in doing that PR piece that ambassadors do like, so unprepared, like, is unfathomable to me that that could have ever happened. But I think the story beat for it, this is my guess. Cause I, I think I had notes, I don't know if I talked about it last week, but I had notes cuz she ran off at one point. All upset last week.

Mm-hmm. also. Yeah. When, when Asan was calling her a freak and she just like ran away and was mad and I was just like, You, you were a sati. Like, and you're gonna let some guy calling you a freak break you down. But what I think it is meant human emotions. She's never had to deal with before. Exactly. And she doesn't know how, She's basically like a four year old child who just has this, this rush of emotion that she can't sort out, but is also at the same time having to work in one of the highest levels that exist in the galaxy.

I hope they come back to that. Right. Like, yeah, this has gotta be a thing. But I I, because I just, like you said, I cannot believe that she was so unprepared for that and so unsupported through it. Yep. Yeah. And she,

Brent: she really should have had

Jeff: something Yeah. Linear for God's sake. I mean, he's there to protect him, you know, like where is Lanier?

Brent: Yeah. Where is he? Um, and then the other thing I really noticed in this episode, did you notice the thing behind Sheridan in his desk that like, it's hanging on the wall. It looks like a really huge cigar cutter.

Jeff: I don't think I noticed

Brent: it. Yeah. Like I'm trying to figure out what that is. Huh. This has absolutely no bearing or importance whatsoever.

But while they were droning on my eyes, were trained on this thing. Like if you look, you know what I'm talking about? Like those things you stick the cigar. Yeah, the snips. The, Yeah. Yeah. But it looks like a really big one of those. Just hang on his wall, right over his shoulder. Notice it next time you're in a scene.

But yeah, that's, that's all I got on this episode, man. Well, not all, I, I, There's the

Jeff: spoken stuff too. I have a handful of other things, just delto. Right. So, I mean, Oh, he was the highlight

Brent: of the episode to me. . Really? He really was. Yeah. Like in an episode that was kind of, otherwise whatever, like he was fun to see.

Again,

Jeff: it just, I, I liked the callback and I liked that he was the guy, right? Like that was cool. But also he is just like, Oh, you know, you gotta go along to get. and, and then hits the other trope, like, was it all worth it? Well, you know, I got a retirement pension to make. It's just like, wow, let's, let's boil hardworking people down to like the lowest common denominator and call it delto.

Let's do that. Right? I thought it was pretty cool. I really

Brent: wanted, I'm sorry. I really wanted him to reference getting a raise, having a few more workers, getting new equipment. Like just, just gimme a reference that that either happened or tell me it didn't happen. Oh, they promised it again, and then it's another thing and it just didn't work out.

Like, give me something.

Jeff: Just, they rolled it all up into, uh, Yeah, they tried. Who lost you with some budget cuts, But like, that's a thing and you know, we gotta go along to get along. Mm-hmm. . Oh, dude. See on the Franklin piece, I, at the very end when they asked the big question, you know, Is it all worth it?

And he says, If we weren't here, half the people in this room would be dead. And I was like, Yeah, if you weren't there, those people wouldn't have gotten hurt . Like, God, you're terrible. I just, he's the, he's the worst. And let's see.

Well, let's talk about what I think was a huge thing. And that's, uh, Andre Kass and Okay. His acting. Oh, okay. He had two incredible scenes in this. The first was in the council chambers where Lawn do was trying to argue and he throws a glass down. He is like, You're doing what you always do, ra. Awesome. It was great.

And then when he told the story of his, of his. dying, like mm-hmm. , He, Jaar is a character, is incredible, but I don't think anyone except for consuls could make him who he is. Like he is Jaar. It was so good.

Brent: Um, it's one of the few times that I've ever thought of Londo as a human. Hmm. When he's telling the

Jeff: story of his dad.

That was G’Kar. G’Kar is a human. That's

Brent: what I meant. Sorry. Jaar. It's one of the few times I've ever thought about him as a human because the way he told that story, you could, you could feel it, you could emote with it, you could see it happening. Yeah. On earth. Like right here, you know. And, uh, we, was it last week, we said we'd been missing Jaar, like Lando and Jaar.

The magic, you need them together. Right? Yeah. And it was so good to actually see both of them in this episode.

Jeff: Well I think what they showed it was an elevation. Cuz we talked, I think it was last week, about how they need each other. We need, you know, they need to be together. Yeah. To be, They weren't together.

They were playing off of each other in interviews there and it was still great, you know? Ah, they keep telling, they've changed stories so many times, you know, and just the back and forth between them even separated was great. But I think Lando, like you said, Lando is as a human, I was like, oh, I think Lando is getting very comfortable being the villain.

Londo is

Brent: bad. Yeah. He is fully embraced. Bad guy. Yeah. He is defending his people. He is making excuses. He is, uh, being very flippant with lots of things and I don't like it. No, not at all. And I don't, Jeff, I gotta tell you. I know I've said that we gotta get to a spot at the end of the season where like, he comes back.

It's the redemption of lawn. I don't know that that's happening.

Jeff: He's, he's still, I think he's still, I think he's got further to go before he hits rock bottom. Yeah. He has to bounce

Brent: back. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I don't, I don't think, I don't, as much as I hate it, I don't know that we're gonna see that again, uh, anytime soon.

Like, this could go season for the first time. I'm like, this could go

Jeff: seasons. I think that was my first call was like, we weren't gonna see a resolution to him to like the fourth season or something like that. And it's feel, it's feeling like that. Yeah. It is. It is. Wasn't Sheridan awesome though, in this one?

Like he was just so care, like his smile. Mm-hmm. . Like he, That's what it looks like when you got a PR person prepping you for the interview. Yeah. Like he was

Brent: ready. . Yeah. And listen, this isn't, this isn't a, a dig or a slam, but imagine that being Sinclair, that would've been an entirely different, uh, uh, interview.

He could not have handled that interview like that. No. Nope.

Jeff: You know, um, which I think is part of his character, and I think it worked is Sinclair like not being able to, But what I thought was cool, and I think is one of those through lines of kind of, Well, I think it's such a through line because Sinclair talked about it and then Sheridan brought it up.

But the whole like, I gotta make it worthwhile for all. Like, if I die and it doesn't mean anything, then what was I even here for? And what about all of our ancestors that go back? Mm-hmm. like Sinclair talked about that last season, and then Sheridan brought that up again. And like that, that Sinclair's words put into Sheridan's mouth and honestly elevated because they were in Sheridan's.

And that's all I got.

Brent: Well, Jeff, with that, um, let's get into the meat of the episode. Let's get to the spot that, that honestly Norman set us up for. This might not have been the best episode to read his .

Jeff: I know. Right

Brent: on. But he said that we have the ability to do the analysis and keep things fair. My fair assessment of this episode, it was a great creative way to give us a clips show without actually showing us an ec Clipse a clips show without being a clips show.

Yeah. And set us up for what I can only assume is getting ready to be the, the clima of the season. Mm-hmm. , whatever they think they've been building to. We're about to turn that corner here for these last six, seven. And I really hope that that's the case. But what does this mean on a more spiritual level?

We said spiritual, not that, what's, what am I thinking of? Metaphysical? Yeah, ecumenical. Like philosophical. Philosophical, Yeah. Parlay. Um, but it, it, it's the Star Trek quality. Jeff, we've reached that part of the show for the Star Trek quality. Is there a deep moral message to this show? Is it holding up a mirror to society?

Is it giving us a hope that we can be better in the future? Um, Jeff, you're gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five Deltas, how Star Trek it is, and I'm gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five star Furies as far as how Babylon five this show is what you got, bro. Sheridan

Jeff: literally gives the Star Trek message word for word at the end of this episode.

like he says it beautifully, he says, We're not enforcing the peace, we're creating the peace. Babylon five is built on the assumption that we can work out our problems and build a better future to make the work of our ancestors matter and our inheritors before us. We're gonna create the world for them to live in.

This was the break. I love this. We are in the process of building the future. That's what Babylon five is all about. And like I said, that's, that's what Sinclair was saying back in the first season too. But it's not just that Sheridan said it, this was reflected through the episode. Lawn Do says that we must work harder to communicate with one another.

And he said it like in a way to set, you know, the NAS and Jaar up to look stupid or whatever. But I think deep down, I think deep down he still believes that said that humanity builds community with diverse and often hostile groups them work

Brent: together. Loved what loved, I'm sorry to, I loved Lin's statement on that.

It's,

Jeff: to me, it's a thing where. So often humanity is boiled down. It's either the, in sci-fi, humanity is either the group that everything is happening around, or they're the ones that are like, Well, we have emotion or we have the, No. We build community. That is what we do. And I thought that was so well put, Torman, I thought this was great too.

Torman talks about how is Jaar and Lando are saying the same things, but they're actually failing to communicate with each other. You know, like understand the same things. Nothing's happening, but it's gonna take Babybel on five and humanity to bring them together to communicate. We even saw Sheridan and Babybel on five put their money where their mouth is on this, where they called the sonari on their bluff, knowing that if they didn't call them on their bluff, that they would sacrifice the.

For and, and invalidate the work of all the ancestors and they would just end up in a big war and wouldn't actually be moving towards peace. It didn't come together, the Star Trek message until the very end, but it did come together. Mm-hmm. . Now, before I scored, I want to explain why I'm not gonna give this five Deltas, and it's really simple.

Star Trek is about being in the more ideal future and shared and said it we're in the process of building. Yep. That future. It's what Babylon five is all about. I mean, you just said it, so I'm gonna go with four and a half Deltas on this episode.

Brent: I definitely think that that is the fundamental difference between Star Trek and Babylon.

Five. Mm-hmm. , I, I think I've seen this in the comments a few times from some of our people out there. Star Trek is what we're going to get to Babylon five is how we're getting there. You know, and, and we're not there yet. And Star Trek has dabbled in how we get there a little bit, but still it's kind of a, we've already been there.

Jeff: Well, how do, uh, what does Star theories look like? I'm glad. I just gotta tell you, I was so excited to have Deltas on this one and not star theories. Yeah.

Brent: So here's the deal. So you went this, I mean, people, here's what's gonna happen. People are gonna look, because we don't publish these, we should publish.

This needs to be a tweet every week, Jeff. Oh yeah. Like, let me put more work on your plate here. This needs to be a tweet every week that's like, Here's our star Furies, here's our Deltas. You know, like a cool graphic or maybe something we can do. Um, but if people were to look at our, our Deltas and our star Furies, they would be like, They loved this episode.

And I'm here to tell you, No, we did not. But I am going to give this one four star Furies. It's a lot. And, and I wanna explain why. Star Fury is not just how much did we like this episode? I think it is, it has, it's continued to grow and evolve. It's also how Babylon five is this, The Deltas are how Star Trek it is, how Babylon five is.

This, This episode is so Babylon five and one of the things I love that Babylon five does that, that other star word shows do, and I I don't just mean track. I'm talking about all the star, all the sci-fi shows, right? Mm-hmm. , um, it tells a story in its own way, in a way that the other shows aren't doing or haven't done, or in a way that the shows, the other shows are copying.

Yeah. And the, I I, I've said this at least a half dozen times, how the heck do you write a clip show and never show a single clip? It's pretty incredible. Is genius. If I had never seen an episode of, of Babylon five before this episode, if this is where you introduced me, I would have everything I needed to be able to move forward.

At least I think I would. I don't know. People out there are like, Oh, but you would've missed this. No, I think I would've been that caught up everybody who needed to be caught up just enough to get 'em right where they needed to be so we can move forward. And it did it in such a brilliant, masterful storytelling way that unfortunately if you have just been binging the first 36 hours and you've gone, you've gone through that.

Like, it's like, oh gosh, do I have to sit through this again? And I gotta watch this a second time too, to take notes now. Oh my gosh. Like if, if that's what you're having to do this, you're right. This episode does not hold up on a rewatch. At least not as soon a close

Jeff: rewatch. You know Yeah. A day between mine, like yesterday today.

Mm-hmm. And that's too close. Way too close, but,

Brent: but as far as how Babylon five is this episode. Oh, it's, it's great. And I mean, it literally is the story of Babylon five, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I I'm gonna give it four star Furies just because it does it so well. It's just information I don't feel like I needed.

Jeff: I love that. Cuz I think, I think we weren't super high on this episode, but I can't, I mean, we said it and you just said it, but we can't overstate it. This episode was brilliant. Mm-hmm. , I mean, Brilliant.

Brent: Jeff, please, please, can we just agree though, this is not going to find its way sneaking into the top five of the season like TKO did because tko last year, this, this is, this season's tko what objectively, it's not a great episode, but because of how they did it, how they wrote it, how they put it together.

It is a masterpiece of storytelling.

Jeff: This is a masterpiece of storytelling. Tko was a good episode.

Brent: Tko was an okay episode. I, but it made me feel quite a lot. And it is the only thing, I let you put it way higher than it

Jeff: should have been. It's the only season one episode I've watched since we've been in season two.

I've actually gone back and watched it. Yeah,

Brent: because you were a guest on another podcast, and need to

Jeff: be Watch it for that episode. But I also did because I wanted to to watch it. Okay. It was a good episode. But let's find out where it's gonna land because here in season two we are ranking the episode that's gonna create the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of the second season of Babylon five.

I don't think I need to go through the top five on this one for you. So Brent, where do you put, And now for a word. Oh, I get to do this one. It, Yeah. . Oh, it's a lot of pressure. It is.

Brent: Um, okay, wait. Do you want me to go over the ranking rankings? No, no, no, no. It's definitely not in the top five. So we're gonna, we're gonna push that, which means soulmates stays in the top five.

I keep waiting for soulmates to get pushed out, cuz it

Jeff: should not be a top five episode. Well, I'm gonna guess I'm throwing big money next week. It will be next week. It'll get knocked out of the top

Brent: five. I, I agree with you. Um, so let's apply the litmus test. What show would you rather watch before watching this one again?

Would I rather watch Groos before watching this one again? Yes. Would I rather watch our episode from last week? There are all the honor lies. Yes. Would I rather watch acts of sacrifice? Which one was that one? Let's find out. me full of my notes from that week. Love this.

Jeff: This is one of my favorite things YouTube gets to see,

Brent: right?

It's how the sausage is made. Acts of sacrifice. That was a, a Sinclair episode, not Sinclair, sorry. Uh,

Jeff: Sheridan episode. Oh, that's why I can't find it. I was in the wrong folder. That'll make a difference. Let's see here. Oh, this is where Jaar is. Desperate. Lawn do's Lonely. Mm-hmm. and Na. Where a track attacked

This doesn't say anything. Oh, it's where dude, um, of Ava had to, um, the Luma, like she had to do the diplomatic first contact thing with the Luma. Mm-hmm. . And they had to, had to do the sex thing at the end. Oh

Brent: yeah. . I would rather watch that one before watching this one again.

Jeff: Okay. You should state, you should state that again so I can easily edit it.

Brent: I would rather watch that one again then before, uh, that was act of sacrifice, right? I'd rather watch, act of sacrifice. Okay. Revelations I just found. I would rather watch this one before watching Sinclair talk to his sister ever again. Not Sinclair did. I just did it again, shared him. I would rather watch this one again than watch Sin

Jeff: It's late. It's been a long day. Let's try it again. You watched this episode twice. It takes a long time to sh .

Brent: I would rather watch this episode again, more than I would ever like to see Sheridan have a conversation with his sister ever again. So this is going in our number 12 spot above revelations, above a distance star, way above the long dark.

But I think this is gonna get pushed down as the series goes on and rightly so.

Jeff: Well that's it for, and now for a word. Next week we are watching in the shadow of Zaha Doom for the first time. Now we don't look ahead at all. We don't look at pictures. We don't read synopsis or synopsis or anything like that.

We don't know anything about them. So Brent, what do you think is gonna happen next week on In the Shadow of Zaha Doom? Zas Return.

Brent: Zathras been way long time Zathras missed. Show Zathras Come back to show you. Watch Zathras next week. Babylon. Five. First time.

Jeff: I feel like we should just end on, That was so good. Do it.

Brent: Don't do it. Cut it cuz there's nothing else we're gonna say after this. That is gonna do that.

Jeff: Yeah, cuz my guess is pretty. My guess is pretty lame compared to that. Ah, shadows going back to the rim. Hey, remember there's a whole shadow thing going on that's gonna be, That's true. But you know what I, this is where I, I'm gonna add, I'm just gonna support your guests, is the opening credits of season two.

Talk about this being the year the Great War started. I have a hard time believing the Cent. Nan War is the great war. Ooh. And the Great War was referenced on Babylon four by Zas. And so I think this is where the shadows, maybe this is where the shadows actually like come out in force an attack. And this is the beginning of the actual great war.

You

Brent: know, you just gave me hope that actually Lando might come to us senses and come back by the end of this. Because if this Nan's entire thing is like a precursor to the war and not the war itself, then you know they're gonna resolve this war and then the new thing is gonna kick off because of it.

Yeah. And uh, at least we get Lando and Jaar. Acting nicely together, or nicely acting in front of

Jeff: Nice. Yeah. Being front of me. Yeah. The best. Well, we're gonna find out here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, or if you're watching us on YouTube.

And please stop by Apple. Leave us a rating, Leave us a review, and I'll read it right here on the podcast. So, Brent, until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Brett, was it all worth it? All the stuff we go through, is it worth it?

Jeff: Yes