And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time. Not a Star Trek podcast.

My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon 5 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time. Not the second time, not the third time, not the fourth time. It's the first time. The first time Jeff and I have ever seen this show. We are two veterans, star Trek podcasters who are watching this show for the very first time.

Taking that analytical lens we've gained as Star Trek podcasters and applying it right here to this show. Looking for all those messages, ideas, and hope for the future. And where we are gonna go from here and trying to decide just how much we like this series.

Jeff: Which frankly is a lot by the way. Just, uh, just to clear up any confusion. It's a lot that we like this, uh, this series, but like Brent said, we're Star Trek podcasters. We're veteran Star Trek

Brent: Are we, are we babble on five podcasters yet?

Jeff: Yeah. We had this conversation a couple

Brent: Yeah. I'm gonna keep

Jeff: babbel on five

Brent: We are.

Jeff: We have two more seasons.

Brent: Yep,

Jeff: In a couple movies before we're veteran Babylon. Five podcasters

Brent: Oh, that's what we said. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Jeff: so we're close over halfway

Brent: There we go.

Jeff: I think Bonjovi had something to say about that. Let that linger. But as Veteran Star Trek podcasters, we are sure to bring in some of those references and to sort of keep us focused on Babylon five.

We play the rule of three. It's a game where each of us get only three references to Star Trek. A piece. That's it. Three. Those no substitutions. Exchanges a refund. Hey Brent,

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: we have a five star review. Oh yes, this one's over on Audible

Brent: Whoa. Shout out Audible

Jeff: and on Audible, a very unique username, uh, Amazon customer. Says . He said Excellent. I've never seen the Babylon five spinoff Crusade, and I'd like to watch that with what you do for Babylon five. But you can't start that yet, unfortunately, as it would be a spoiler for plot lines. I guess I'll have to wait.

Brent: Jeff, are we gonna do crusade?

Jeff: We haven't

Brent: Like, because we, we signed up for 110 episodes of Babylon five and I think for five movies,

Jeff: I think five.

Brent: but

Jeff: and we've done one of them. We've done one. We did the gathering.

Brent: that was one. Oh, okay. So, so we've signed up for those, but I don't think we signed up like, cuz there's Crusade and isn't it like the lost series or something like that?

Jeff: Is it, can you even watch it?

Brent: I don't know.

I don't know.

Jeff: I bought the DVDs right way back. Um, and I've been do using those for my reaction videos, the over on our Patreon, but I, I, I didn't get any and the movies came with that, which is super cool. But I, I don't get crusade or anything.

Brent: Are are those, are those like official j m s Cannon stories? I don't, I don't know.

Jeff: the crusade, I don't know. I've seen it pop up and stuff. I don't know anything about it. And please don't tell us about it. Uh,

Brent: can tell us if it's jms cannon or not. I will take that information.

Jeff: That's fair. Yeah, Amazon customer just told us it would be spoilery. And I, I, I have a pretty trusting, too much of a trusting relationship with Amazon customer.

I think almost unhealthy.

Brent: It's almost like you're looking in a mirror sometimes there, Jeff, I'm not saying you wrote the thing. It's

Jeff: I was gonna say also, I did not write this, I don't know what crusade is, so please don't put this on.

Brent: uh, yeah, we should, we should probably talk about that. Figure that out. Not right

Jeff: yeah. Like where does it even fit in, in the, yeah. We have so many questions that aren't relevant to this episode at all. So, hey, you know what we should do? We should read another five star review. Oh yes. Also on Audible. This one actually on Audible uk, so this is from the United Kingdom.

Brent: Shout out United Kingdom.

Jeff: Lena H says exactly what I didn't know I needed right now. Sci-fi is best whenever it asks me questions about now. Back then, further on by expertly analyzing that nearly forgotten star Babylon five. These two dudes are providing me a torch to shine on my daily choices. Learning by being fed protocols is always a useless.

The only efficient teacher is the honest question mark. This is exactly what this show brings me. Respectful questions. If things really can't be seen the opposite way, I encourage everyone, not only the space, happy to hear this show. It will be good food for thought probiotics for your soul, and very good entertainment as well.

Brent: Well, you know, they say the best medicine is laughter. And you know what the best kind of laughter is, is a good belly laugh, a good laugh from the gut. And you wanna make sure that you have good gut health when you are laughing from the gut. And, um, yeah, this is sort of an off the rails, but hey, that, uh, that's awesome.

I couldn't help but think though. Lena h from the uk. Now I know Alina h I'm sorry, I know of Alina h from the UK and I'm wondering if this is the same person cuz there is a British actress named Lena Hedi.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Who? Oh, you. Oh, you don't know who this is?

Jeff: I probably

Brent: Oh, uh uh, CCY from Game of Thrones.

Jeff: Really? Okay. Okay.

Brent: So I don't listen in my head.

Cannon. Ccy is listening to our, uh, uh, Lena is listening to, she also played, um, oh, I forget the character name, but he, it was dude's wife in 300.

Jeff: Oh my God, I haven't watched, that's a

Brent: Yeah. It's her. And she actually, she's been in quite a few things that are, that are really good. Uh, she, she's a great actress. Really

Jeff: And we're part of her Soul's Gut health.

Brent: love it.

Jeff: That's pretty, you know, we've been called a lot of things in our time here, we've been called Insightful

Brent: entertaining. Yes, yes,

Jeff: uh, mucus covered chuckle nuggets, and now, and now Probiotics for the

Brent: I love it. Probiotics, that's a T-shirt.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Lon five for the first time. Probiotics for the Soul. I love

Jeff: The, the probiotics for the soul you never even knew you needed.

Here we

Brent: That is, that is, that is one of the most perfect. Um, like, like images. That explain. It's like a probiotic for the soul. I love it.

Jeff: that's good. But listen, I, we got those off of Audible. We often read reviews off of Apple, but we are quickly approaching our season three wrap up for this show. And just like in the first season where we gave away an incredible 3D printed model of Babylon five, the second season where we gave away a John Sheridan action figure this time in the season three wrap up, we're going back to our good friend Wash who created the Babylon five station and also created these star theories.

If you're watching us on YouTube right now, Brent is showing that bad boy off. Incredible detail, made with love and care. I mean, wash really puts some look at that.

Brent: Yeah. Look at

Jeff: Looks so good.

Brent: Dad's done that. Look at that. There's fins and flaps and gun blaster, cannon, turrets, and awesome looking cockpit. The only way this would've been better is if you actually had that character in the cockpit. But I, that probably would've been a little more high end of on the 3D printing side than, than anything.

But I mean, look at the detail on this thing, man. It is, it's just incredible for, uh, for a little model like this

Jeff: and as Star Trek podcasters, we understand, um, made up sci-fi technology and we have this cool tool where we can actually take that star theory that's on the screen right now and we can put that on your desk at home. And all you have to do for an opportunity for that is leave us a review. and you're in.

If you've left us a review in the past, awesome. If you do it again or in the future, literally right now, you're in. And if you wanna, well, maybe not necessarily better your odds, but if you wanna make sure that we're aware you entered, you screenshot that bad boy, you tag us on Twitter with the image at Babylon first, or you email it to us at Babylon five first@gmail.com and cool news, there's not just one we're given away, we're given away two.

So you got double the chances to get a Sweet Star theory made by Wash.

Brent: Jeff, you know what else is sweet?

Jeff: What's that?

Brent: The games that we play here on Babylon five for the first time, we play the rule of three, which was probably the first game we instituted on this show. Another

Jeff: I think that's immediate feedback we got when we had our show tested by our friends.

Brent: Right, right,

Jeff: you need a limit on your Star Trek references,

Brent: Right, right. Uh, so we had that one, but another one we do is we get to the end, and a lot of people quote this as like their favorite thing of the show is listening to you and I make predictions that are either wildly accurate. Or hilariously wrong. And this is the part of the show where we revisit last week when we predicted what this week's episode was gonna be about, and we just see how accurate or how wildly wrong we were.

Jeff, do you remember what you said? And the rock cried out. No hiding place was going to be about

Jeff: So I thought that we were gonna see Brother Theo and his crew again, and we did get to see Brother Theo again. Uh, I thought though that they were gonna be trying to search out the, um, the names of Jaquan and the different, uh, Naar deities and that would lead them down a path of learning that Lando was responsible for everything and they were gonna go kind of hold him accountable for his atrocities.

There was, uh, brother Theo and his stuff. There was Kar there. And his atrocities, but not quite mixed together in the way that I had predicted.

Brent: Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, I, I need, I need some honest time from you here.

Jeff: Oh, mm-hmm.

Brent: Did you see, did you see a thumbnail that showed

Jeff: I, I saw, I saw nothing

Brent: Did you, because that was, that was a serious pull. And I, you know, maybe I'm starting to rub off on you over here. Maybe you're starting to get some of my side powers, but I was impressed with just, just the fact that Brother Theo popped up on screen as a part of this episode.

I'm giving you full credit.

Jeff: I, so full disclosure one, uh, the rock is what drew me there, and I talked about that last week as a Catholic, like, and as a Christian we talk, you know, the rock of the church, but also that's a goss like that, that's a for real, legit gospel. and like, so I mean, to me it was just like, alright, this is gonna be a religious thing.

We have talked a lot this season about just like the Catholic themes that JMS has brought in and then it hit me. I'm like, it's been like since the third episode of this season that we've seen Brother Theo. It's time to, I mean, we've closed, we've tied off so many threads in here and those monks have just been kind of hanging out there.

So to me it just made sense that we were gonna do

Brent: well guess what? By the end of this episode, while the, the, the pastor, the rabbi and the monk might not be there anymore, brother Theo and his and his guys are still still hanging out. . So

Jeff: Crunching their numbers. What did you, what did you think this one

Brent: well, I actually kind of went off of what you said. Um, I pulled in, this was gonna be a w e wrestler coming onto the station.

Might or might not have actually been the rock, but this was, this was what was going on in the mid nineties. Like this was the sort of stuff people were using, trying to bring in viewers and, you know, I'm sure j m s would've absolutely caved, uh, to the studio's pressure to bring in some pop. Person, uh, at least he wasn't gonna put a pop band down in the Zocalo every week, you know?

Uh, but I was thinking he was gonna come on the, uh, the station, like a, like a hunter searching for somebody saying, there's no place you can hide because, let's be honest. And the Rock cried out, no hiding place. That sounds like this episode had two separate titles and they just couldn't figure out which one to go with.

So they threw 'em together.

Jeff: And it literally sounds like something the Rock would've said in like 1998, so it's a little bit off, but. May it wasn't deep Space nine that stole from Babylon five. It was w e Not only did they steal this phrase, the rock, they stole their initials, war without End. There's your conspiracy people. You want to go after somebody.

J m s Listen, I know you're, I know, I know you're watching. You won't let anybody know, but I know you're right now, you're going back in time. You're doing the rewrites for us. Thank you for that. But, uh, you need to go after, after, uh, wwe e

Brent: Get 'em to change their name back to B W F,

Jeff: yeah, seriously.

Brent: should be.

Jeff: That's what it always has been. But listen, if you are listening to us talk about this episode and you're like, brother Theo, what the rock?

Huh? Whatever. You haven't watched this one in 30 some odd years, or, or you've never watched it before at all, and you're just listening along with us, which, you know, welcome, welcome to the Ride, Brent. Will you remind everyone what? And the rock says No hiding place. Is all about

Brent: Well, hey Jeff, you know what I think,

Jeff: that.

Brent: I think episodes that start with a vulnerable voiceovers are pretty cool, man, and that should bode well for this particular episode. Basically she's just telling us that the war with the shadows is really starting to take its toll on the station. I mean, just take a look at Sheridan.

No, like literally take a look at Sheridan, Jeff. Exactly. How long has it been since our last episode? And exactly how fast does Sheridan's hair grow? Cuz that man is looking, shaggy

Jeff: unsat.

Brent: Shaggy. He hasn't shaved in a few days, or at least according to Brent's facial hair timeline. It's been a few days. He's got bags under his eyes.

He's got a super swank, new captain's cloak that's suddenly appeared outta nowhere. And it's not even season five yet. And aside from apparently not sleeping, uh, he's barely left the war room. Dr. Franklin, he's still out on walkabout. Even though the last time we saw him it was more of, uh, curled up in a dark corner. Ja car has his panties and a knot about something. But hey, at least there's Brother Theo and all his monk friends.

They're annoying. One moment and super comforting the next. And as for Lando, well, he's busy down in his evil layer planning and ploting his next move. And that move is it's time to take out Kar and Veer is gonna help him do it. You see, Londo is gonna send Veer to Kar with some false information about Netta.

Hey, remember her That Netta was found alive in a prison camp or something like that back on the Nan home world. And that's gonna get Kar to try to sneak back to the home world where there's an open warrant waiting for him. And as soon as he turns up, Londo and his men are gonna be there waiting to arrest him and execute him well as Vera Sulks off to go do this thing that he clearly doesn't want to go do.

Some new people are coming aboard the station. Now, Jeff, stop me if you've heard this one before. Uh, there's a priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk, uh, and also a Baptist pastor. But that doesn't just roll off the tongue, that easy. There's a whole lot of friendly banter back and forth between them. Uh, and they brought, and by brat, I mean they smuggled news from Earth out to Babylon.

Five. Why did they have to smuggle news? You may ask. Well, because Ivanova really wants to know what people are saying about her back home, and that's very top secret, but that's not what's important. What's really important is that along with the pastor, the rabbi and the monk, someone else has come aboard the station, Lord Refa, and he's brought along one of the new ministers, no word on exactly how prime this particular minister is, but his name is va.

Now Refa has brought Verini to the station to show him just how awful Londo is so that Verini will throw his support behind Refa. So he basically could just be a whole lot cooler at the Royal Court, but Verina, but Verini really just wants to end the infighting between Lando and House Maari and Refa and House Refa.

It's not good for this Inari to have two of the oldest houses warring against each other. Now Lando, during his one-on-one with Minister Va promises that he is going to prove to him the value of House Maari. He has a plan, you see, obviously the one, you know, dealing with Kar, a plan to root out a plague that has been eating away at the Emperor.

One that has been an embarrassment to the Sonari people, and it's gonna be dealt with and it's gonna be put to death. Now Veer can't believe his ears. He's being used by Londo to commit this heinous action against Jaar. Just so Londo Con carry you more favor with the Royal Court. It's outrageous, I tell you.

Outrageous. Well, Longo's plan works. Jaar has taken the bait and is on his way back to the Narn home world on Babylon. Five Rehas men kidnap, veer, and force vere to tell them what Lando is up to, except Veer doesn't break. So Refa uses a telepath to take the information out of Vere's head and in imprint the idea that there are five lights up there on the wall. So by the end of it, REFA knows exactly where Ja car is going, and he surmises. That Londo can't get to Ja car if Refa gets to him first. Well, while they're flying out to Narn, let's go check in with Sheridan. See, he's finally left the war room, but he's just sort of sitting alone in a dark corner when Pastor Dexter walks in and he encourages Sheridan to Shera the load.

You see, at first he was rather annoying, but then he kind of became rather comforting. It's odd how that worked out.

And so Sheridan takes his advice and he does confide in Delin and wouldn't you know it before? You can say Shadow ships together. They've figured out exactly what the shadows are up to. Well, we're gonna table what they're gonna do with that information for now, but Delin has something she wants to show Sheridan.

Don't worry folks. This is still family friendly. So they pack up on the white Star and they head out. Well, that should give us just enough time to catch up with Ja Car who's got a whole gang of Narn with them out on the Narn home world, and they're moving through the tunnels on their way to rescue Netta.

When wouldn't you know it? Refa and an entire host of guards corner them Refa Gloats and begins to monologue, but not so fast. Jaar pulls out a hollow projector and it's a recorded message from Wait for it. Londo Maari. Hey, you see all those guards around here? Well, turns out they're actually loyal to house Malawi, so they're gonna disappear real quick and leave Refa alone with Kar and the Narn.

Londo has also provided Kar with all the evidence that he's gonna need to know that it was Refa who planned the attack on the Narn home world, that it was Refa who was responsible for the Narn genetic cleansing programs, that it was Refa. Who is the catalyst? For all the Narn troubles out there, the Narn are going to kill you Refa, and you're going to be labeled a traitor and you're in a hot, and your entire house is gonna become a non-factor in Sonari life.

And that's exactly what happens. And while that's happening, we keep cutting back to the station where Pastor Dexter is delivering the star trickiest of all Baptist messages. And a gospel singer begins to sing the title of the episode. I ran to the Rock to Hide and the Rock cried out, no hide in place for you all while Refa was literally trying to run away and hide behind a rock from the na.

Now back on Babylon five Veer is doubly peeved at Londo for using him in this entire elaborate ruse from the very first part of the episode, Londo tries to brush it off, and of course he couldn't tell Veer the truth because Refa had that telepath and if he would've known that, it would've given the whole game away.

But Veer doesn't seem to buy it and he's not taking this one lightly. I'm sure we're gonna come back. I'm sure we're gonna come back to that one in a future episode. And just one more thing of note, remember, remember when Dylan wanted to show Sheridan something? Well, yeah. They've now arrived at an unknown spot out in space somewhere, says, Hey Sheridan, do you like the white star?

And Sheridan's like, yeah, she's awesome. And Sheridan or, and Dylann's like, well look out the window. And Sheridan's like, whoa. Because out in space is an entire fleet of white star ships, which are now at his disposal. And in the final moments of the episode, Jeff gets his wish because Sheridan and Lynn share their first kiss.

Or is it their second? I don't know. Time travel gives me a headache. Jeff, how about you, my friend? Do you have a headache from this episode?

Jeff: Do you remember, do you remember in the first season, uh, the episode by any means necessary? So it had the, the, the union strike and it had the Jaquan F stuff and Sinclair trying to solve

Brent: It, it had, it had one of my favorite endings of season one. The way that Sinclair just came in and ninja that whole situation. Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah, that was fantastic. But I remember when we talked about that one, I, I said there was something about it. I didn't know if it was the lighting. I didn't know if it was what, but it just felt uncomfortable to me somehow. Like it just, something didn't feel right about it. That was this episode to me, there's not a thing I can put on my finger on, but it just didn't feel right somehow.

Now, it doesn't mean I didn't like it. It was just a weird feeling. But as a little note, I went back and I looked at the credits. I compared the credits between the two. Both episodes were edited by the same person,

Brent: Oh, well.

Jeff: so maybe it's something in the editing or something that just rubbed me the wrong way, but oh my gosh, Brent, uh, Dustin, off an old one for me.

Holy Ambassador Malawi, I mean, retribution, revenge, manipulation, and a well-earned romance, right? This thing has slow played and came to fruition. I kind of dug the whole religious leaders thing coming on and, and honestly, using them, we learned that in the future, uh, non Judeo-Christian, uh, religious leaders won't, um, earn speaking parts.

Um, in television they're just, they're just there to be introduced politely. It's just fine. But I thought it was cool how they used them to smuggle information from Earth cuz that was what happened in World War ii, world War I, in massive conflicts, clerics and religious personnel would, under the guise of their, uh, church work and, and arguably as part of their church work, um, would smuggle information back and forth across em, enemy lines.

So I thought that was pretty cool. But, uh, I do wanna apologize to any, uh, Catholic, all two other Catholics out there that are besides me, that are listening because last week I talked about all the Catholic stuff that JMS has been using this season. And you know, we, Brent and I, we are influencing the writing of this show in real time.

Like we're talking about it now and through the space time continuum, JMS is hearing us and is, is, is writing the show based on, based on our input.

Brent: I, I like to think he's hearing like it's, it's an echo that he, he doesn't know where it's coming from or what's happening. We just know that it has to do with the way that it loops. Time loops back on itself and twists and turns and, yeah.

Jeff: yeah, just an influence that we have, a pr, a slight pressure just moving things forward and I think the slight pressure from my statement last week. Caused him to Overcorrect and he made Theo and kind of Catholicism the butt of all the jokes in this one. So, sorry, uh, for that. But I thought that this was a cool, not only cool, like callback to real life, real world use of religious leaders, but also a cool back to parliament of dreams.

You know, Hey, here's the religious leaders from Earth. There's a boatload of us, but dude, Londo man, like, we're gonna talk, we're, we'll talk about it, but like, sure, he saved 2000 Nans. That's great, but there's no way you can call Londo Maari a hero like that is. He is a, he is an evil, evil, manipulative person.

And Wow. Wow. What he did in this zone was, was wild. Last thought is, do you remember, I remember this really well, but when you and I recorded for the, for your Star Trek podcast, beat me up a Star Trek podcast. We recorded the charting the course for the fifth season of Voyager. I remember that it was great that in a big way led to this , but we talked about how cool it was that they addressed the stress and the impacts to the mental health of the crew in the journey.

Like they episode night and things like that. That God,

Brent: Yeah, se season five, uh, for Voyager, I, again, I remember saying, I don't think the show writers intended for this to be, but season five very much was a study in mental health from the first episode to the last episode. And if you take those two episodes and butt them right up against each other, and the first one you have Jane, wait, questioning whether or not she made the right choice and dealing with that.

And then the final episode, seeing what would've happened had she made the other choice with an example of somebody else who did make the other choice and getting to say, no, no, no. My choice was actually the right one. The whole time. It was a neat little bookend. Again, I don't think the writers intended for it to be there, but the whole season, like everybody in that season got like effectively a mental health episode.

Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And in this one we got that for Sheridan, you know, and I loved that they were able to, I think that's the thing that a lot of TV at the time would, would shy away from, you know, of taking its hero and showing their flaws. And I like the way they did it in this, I mean, there's a lot of stereotypical stuff.

I think Dalen. Len fell into some kind of traditional female partner in a relationship roles, um, like some gender stereotypical, uh, stuff that, that came from her. And then the Baptist guy coming in, being like, dude, come on. Like, here's this metaphor that doesn't really hold up until it does hold up and it's amazing.

And, uh, dust yourself off, dude. Get up like you've got great people around you. I thought that was good. I thought that was really good. Uh, this, this episode set me up though really well. I'm excited for the last two episodes like this, this shows, this really showed like the lengths of stupid to say Babylon Heisman showing us this for three seasons, but this one really showed us like the lengths they're willing to go to.

And so I'm, I am primed and ready. What about you?

Brent: Jeff, this is an episode that I don't want to, like you said it best though something is off about this episode. Something just doesn't feel right about this episode. But in all honesty, I liked this episode. I liked how Lando pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, including mine. And I, I did watch this one multiple times.

When you go back and you watch this episode a second time, it's all there from the beginning there. There is nothing underhanded about the way that this episode was written from, from what Londo says at the beginning, the way he's leading veer down a certain path, and you understand why he has to lead him that way because of what goes on with the telepath later, and you can't have veer knowing what's actually happening.

And, uh, you know, it, it all holds up to, to the talk that Londo is having with, um, minister Verini. Of saying, Hey, listen, I'm gonna go road out this plague and I'm gonna, and you think he's talking about jaar, but then you go back, you know what it really is. And he's talking about Refa the whole time. It's, it's a beautifully written, uh, uh, subplot down to, you know, Hey, I'm gonna pop him up on this hollow projector, and here he is.

And I think this might be the first time we've seen that type of a special effect in Babylon five, which was so well done. There's a moment when Longo's hand light goes right through, like the hollow projection goes through reef's face, and he freaks out. Like it was, it was so well done. Um, but I, I, I loved that part of this episode.

Uh, I, I loved how they were cutting between the two scenes of the pastor and his message and the gospel song back on the station with mixing it with what was happening down in the cave. And those two things worked hand in hand. I mentioned last week with Grace 17 as missing that I wasn't sure if there was some sort of metaphor for.

What Gu Baldy was doing down in grade 17 with the Monster and with Jeremiah versus how that went with, um, the, the other plot of the episode. But I know for a fact that's what he meant to do here with this one . Like it was so clear. It yeah, it was, it was absolutely clear. So, and I loved it. You, you sort of, uh, poo-pooed a little bit, but I loved the talk between Pastor Dexter and Sheridan in the dark of his office.

Jeff: I, I loved it too. Like I'm saying like it starts out as this whole thing. Like, really, dude, come on. Like really? But, but as it progresses, you're like, this is awesome. Like, I

Brent: And, and you know, and, and like, there's this one part where, where Sheridan's like, okay, I need you to leave now. And he gets up to go, but then he starts, he's like, you know, here's this one little story from my life now. I'm not telling you to do anything. It's just a little story from my life.

It was just nice to share the load and then he turns on and walks away.

Jeff: Let me show you this whole thing I learned in pastor

Brent: Right. Right. I mean, it was, it was so well done. And, and I, I loved that. And I, I love when you get good counsel from someone. Uh, it was very reminiscent to me of, uh, rabbi Cosla from tko o, which two weeks in a row we've now referenced Tko o.

Um, but, but I

Jeff: week really.

Brent: but I loved it. But all of that said, Jeff, I still can't explain it. There's just something about this episode that I can't put my finger on that makes me go, I didn't like this episode, but the truth is I did

Jeff: Yeah. You know, one thing I think really made this episode work, and I hope, I hope my guess is right and I hope that it continues the way I think it will. But this is one of the first episodes that has actually marked time and it marked time with a Z minus 14

Brent: right.

Jeff: Z minus 13 days. And so it went over a

Brent: Z

Jeff: I think so. I think it's like the countdown to Zaha Doom. We know that's the name of the finale. We know that's where we're heading, and so it's like we're, we're counting down and it, it created this tension for me that I, as I'm talking about it, I remembered fondly, but I'm wondering if it created a tension that kind of put us in an unrest point.

Because like when I think about it, like we both felt there was something weird and off with it. My kind of final opening thought on it was, I can't wait for the next episodes. I wonder if the intent is to create that kind of cognitive dissonance of I want to watch this episode and see what's happening, but also I, I need to get to the end of this season and close this chapter.

Brent: And, and if, if that is intentionally done on the part of the writer,

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: well done, well done. If it's unintentionally done on your part, then you walked right into it, pal. Good job.

Jeff: Yeah, lean in

Brent: Right, right. Um, but I, I mean, there was so much great writing. Uh, Ivanova says at the beginning, talking about Brother Theo, and one moment he can be comforting and or in one moment he can be annoying, and the next moment he can be comforting and then they run off that.

But to watch, to apply that line to Pastor Dexter talking to Sheridan, he's kind of annoying at first, and then he turns real comforting and it, and it, like, it, it just worked. And, you know, to, to speak of those three, the, the rabbi, the priest, and the pastor and the monk, the fact that they were all friends, they were kind of poking fun at each other.

They're all sharing in this mission. Like, like despite, despite the seeming arimo animosity between them, there definitely is a friendship. And you know what it really reminded me of, it reminded me of the relationship between the pastor and the rabbi on Gilmore Girls.

Jeff: Wow. That's a great, that's a great one.

Brent: This might be my first Gilmore Girls reference in three seasons. And that's a shame because I love that show and I'm not ashamed of it. Well, Jeff, we can never do Gilmore Girls for the first time, but maybe we can do it for the 47th time.

Jeff: we totally can. And we,

Brent: oh

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: 2, 2 2 middle-aged white dudes talking about Gilmore Girls.

Yeah, that's,

Jeff: you know what? Before we went on, Mike, with our, with our YouTube crowd, we talked about a handful of people in our YouTube community that have been not, not on their best behavior for like three seasons. Um,

Brent: just like a season and a half, but

Jeff: you wanna really stir that pot?

Let's have us do a Gilmore Girls podcast. how do you, how do you get a bunch? How do you get a bunch of us women to, uh, to come together on a common

Brent: listen, listen here, here's the only thing I'm gonna say. Look, if you guys are out there listening, please drop down on the comments. Team Dean, team Jeff, or Team Logan. I'm Team Logan all the way.

Jeff: Am Dean Logan

Brent: Team Logan all the way, by the way.

Jeff: He's great.

Brent: yep. I'm Team Logan all the way. Um, but anyway. Hey, Eric Avari is in this episode.

Uh, he plays the Rabbi Eric Avari.

Jeff: I know he's in Stargate. I don't know Stargate. I know he's in the

Brent: He, he, yeah. He is probably the most versatile ethnic actor ever. I've seen him as an Egyptian. I've seen him as an Arabian. I've seen him as a Jew. I've seen him in as an Englishman. I've seen him as a Frenchman. I've probably seen him as any other, whatever men you can, you can imagine out there. The man

Jeff: him as a, you've seen him as a Bejo Vick.

Brent: fright. Yeah. Like this man can play any ethnic role you want, maybe with the exception of an Eastern Asian, uh, uh, ethnicity. And he might be able to pull that off too.

Jeff: I would. I wouldn't sell him short on it. The guy one, he's got a, he has a look, but he's an incredible

Brent: He is. He is I, this man is, I don't know that he's ever had a starring role, like this is his show, but the man has been in everything and everywhere and every time he pops up you're like, I kind of like this guy,

Jeff: I loaded him up on, I, I mdb and it crashed my computer. It's just like . It's like it's too much. I don't know. I can't keep

Brent: right, right. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's the pastors, I guess.

Jeff: Yeah, they even got, they got a couple digs in on Theo that I didn't like a lot. Like, so Dexter wanted to do a, uh, what did he call it? A church meeting, I think he called it or something. I don't know. I don't know what you, Protestant people call things. I don't know, like whatever, but a service. Okay. But he is like, maybe they'd want that instead of that boring, you know, whatever.

Like he just like was that stupid boring Catholic mess with Theo right there. . I'm just like, wow.

Brent: he's just digging on him, man. He's just digging on him. He's fine. he wouldn't, he couldn't do that if they didn't have an actual, like, positive relationship on some level. Like,

Jeff: It is good. I, I'm curious what is on the data crystals? Like what news are they gonna get?

Brent: I, why, why did you have to smug? Why are you having trouble getting the like again? Okay. They're blocking the feed. They, or whatever. We have to smuggle news,

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , that's a real thing. Like in, in war I, I know in World War II specifically, like a lot of it's propaganda tool, you know, tools they'll use, but also like Allied forces would go behind like the French line and they would get planes and they would just drop pamphlets with news from, from Allied forces, just, I mean, newspapers and stuff.

Not even propaganda, cuz that helps keep them connected to what's

Brent: I get, I mean, if they were bringing news of the resistance, which they mentioned the resistance, I get that because you, you're not hearing about that in any other way. Uh, and, and Earth is not wanting to let that information get out,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: you know? Um, but uh, like on some level it just seemed to be like the, Hey, so who won the World Series this year?

And who was like, why, why are you trying to smuggle that information out?

Jeff: But that stuff matters, you know? I mean, that

Brent: but, but yeah, but you don't have to. Smu, I mean, are really, is there somebody at, at Earth. The, the earth, uh, uh, departure gate saying Now don't you, don't you take the World Series scores out there, like, um,

Jeff: Look, you and you shared last week you lived in South Korea for what, four, four years? You were there

Brent: Three. Yeah.

Jeff: three years. You were right next door. But you didn't go in or outta North Korea.

Brent: I did.

Jeff: I did. You go in and outta North Korea?

Brent: Not all the time. Uh, once I went once,

Jeff: Okay. But I bet they searched stuff. I bet they were really curious about what you were bringing

Brent: um, that all happened well before we got to that point of the line. Like there was Yeah. You, yeah. There was, uh,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: protocol for that, so

Jeff: Yeah. So I'm sure there's protocol in and outta earth at this point. I mean, God, I go up and down to Canada and they dig through my stuff, you know, and, and ask questions about things. So, I mean, yeah, I, I totally buy, they wouldn't want the scores to get out. It's ridiculous, you know?

Brent: We should, we should have a wall between us and Canada just to keep people out.

Jeff: just, yeah. Keep will keep us, keep us out.

Brent: Keep us outta Canada. You know, I've, I've always said the, the United States just needs the annex, like a, I don't want all of Canada just like the first a hundred miles, like, which is where everybody lives.

Jeff: Yeah. Just snag like Toronto and below,

Brent: like g Gimme Calgary. I want Calgary. That's a great, great place. Uh, shout out by the way, to all my Canadian friends.

It was just a joke. Um, by the way, oh my gosh. If you ever get to go spend, uh, Canada a like Canada Day in Canada, it's, it's their, what we would call 4th of July. It's their Independence Day. Right. Um, if you can do that in Canada, I was in British Columbia one time. Uh, I, I think it was Vancouver is where we were on Canada Day.

Those people put Americans to shame when it comes to celebrating the independence of their country. It was so much. Like we got a barbecue. We're gonna have some hot dogs. We'll shoot off some fireworks. That's our 4th of July. Go swimming in the pool. No, no, no. These people are partying hard and it's so fun.

Jeff: I love Canada. You referenced Canada last week, brought up Brett of Hitman Heart. Right?

Brent: Also from Calgary, Alberta

Jeff: Yep. I got right here from Toronto on my shirt Rush. In fact, the first time I tried to fanangle my way to Toronto was just because their airplane code is Y, y, Z, which is track four, the instrumental on moving pictures, which is great, which was literally written to replicate the feeling that the band got when they were flying into Toronto.

Brent: speak. Speaking of Canadian, speaking of Canadian bands, my favorite Canadian band right now, Rina Harvey Band. Highly recommend them. Highly recommend. They're so fun. So fun. Anyway, go ahead. This is not our Canadian Music Cup podcast. This is a Babylon five podcast. Let's

Jeff: but it's a great pivot into one of the, like the, the, the, the cap on the kind of religious people's story

Brent: Oh sure.

Jeff: was the reverend, you know, doing a sermon and then singing the gospel tune. We'll talk about the juxtaposition of that in the scene, but I just gotta tell you, it was so cool to see Dalen and Sheridan, Lanier, even the rabbi, dude all dancing, singing, clap it

Brent: Sheridan and Lanier specifically though like being real awkward and not like, like Sheridan couldn't keep a beat to save his life.

Jeff: And he is like, looking at the book all like, I I, I, we've all seen that

Brent: okay. Here's what I want to know, Bruce. I know you watch our show, was that you acting or in real life, can you just not keep a beat? I gotta know

Jeff: It's fine.

Brent: Yeah, I just want to know how much of that was Bruce and how much of that was John Sheridan

Jeff: I can imagine that when that aired and even when people watch it now, there's a level of like, Rabbi wouldn't dance and sing gospel music or whatever. But I also think like, yeah, he totally, he would be very respectful of, because that's what we've watched this whole episode is like there's this fraternity amongst them and he's, he's not necessarily, I mean, I think that the passage that this is from, and the gospel song is based on a passage and revelation, but so that's, that is not Jewish at all.

But like he's, he's not gonna be like sitting there like, I don't believe in your Messiah. He's like, yeah, cool. We're being cool and I'm gonna be a part of that. I love that scene.

Brent: I will, I will say this, and this was my biggest thought about the song outside of the, Hey, look. That's actually what Refa is doing. She's singing about Refa right now. My biggest thought was, this is such a better song than the one that that chick sung in the bar with Franklin a couple episodes ago.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: It's such a better song. I buy this one. I didn't buy that one.

Jeff: You know, I liked about it too, cuz a lot of times in TV shows you'll have the person, like the person singing, you know, who's up there, but they have the whole backing band in the audio track behind them and you're like, there's, there's no instruments here at all. It was her a piano and the congregation like that was it.

And she sounded great. And it was rock. Yeah, it was rocking. It was like, God, this is good. This is good.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: So let's talk about Dalen. Who gets introduced to us? Colleen? Colleen Sheridan. Grouchy,

Brent: cranky.

Jeff: crotchety.

Brent: She had to look up one word to find out what the other word meant, and then had to look up a new word to find out what that word meant, and that's why English doesn't make sense. And I said, amen.

Jeff: Yeah, agreed that that nugget made that whole, I'm gonna say it, that whole painfully long scene worthwhile. Um, cuz I, I didn't care for that interaction between them at all.

Brent: I I didn't mind it. It felt, um, it felt in line with where we've seen their relationship go over the last couple of episodes. It's a much more familiar relationship now. Um, what what I loved about it was, you know, here's Sheridan being Mr. Cranky, Mr. Whatever. And she, like, she just comes in and, uh, you said it earlier, like she really assumed a much more, um, female role in a relationship

Jeff: Yeah. I'm girlfriend, I'm gonna be girlfriend.

Brent: here's the thing. I think that's okay given where they are. And like, I kind of like seeing her being able to turn his head because I gotta tell you, Jeff, I don't know about. but I'm just peaches and cream to live with all the time. Yeah. And, and like, there is no one else in this world that when I'm a little crotchety, there is no one else other than my wife who can look me in my face and, and just real sweetly, calmly and quietly, she's not yelling at me.

Just go, you're off today. You're gonna come do this and we're gonna go have fun. And you're just like, yeah, but I can't. No, no, no. We're gonna do this. And you're just like, okay, all right, let's go. And, and she has this effect that pulls me out of it. And it's, I think it's just the beauty of a relationship.

Like it's two people being able to work together through their junk and love each other through it, and it makes each other a better person. You.

Jeff: it was kinda like when, when she's like, Hey, those humans you've been waiting for here? And he's like, no, no. And she's like, yeah, we are. And actually dinner's in two hours. So get up and do it like that. I'm there

Brent: Yeah. And she's, she says, she says, uh, well since no mbar lies except to save one another, because we do know now that they lie, so we gotta put this little tag on it right. To actually make it work. She's like, if you don't do this, then it's gonna make me, um, lose respect on in the eyes of whoever.

So you're gonna have to do this Anyway. Once again, I felt like I was watching Emily Gilmore talk to Richard.

Jeff: I want now. Now I'm gonna go cuz we know that there's some, there is some cross-pollinization between Gilmore girls and, uh, and Babylon five film crew. So I wonder if there's some other

Brent: Wait, what?

Jeff: So dude, remember, so I don't remember the episode, but there was the episode where Lanier was like sitting, waiting for a transport and he was sitting next to a guy who was just being

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: brash and whatever

Brent: He and he is the special effects or stunt coordinator or something like that on the

Jeff: there's a ton of cinematography and the stuff.

He also did some cinematography for Gilmore Girls.

Brent: Really? I didn't know that.

Jeff: was that guy. Like, so cuz when you brought the Gilmore Girls, I'm like, that's your first reference. It's not my first

Brent: Interesting. Okay. All right.

Jeff: I thought that was cool. But on on that, when she says that right, dinner's in two hours.

Get up, she said in two standard hours. , which is the sci-fi thing, right? Everyone's, you know, in two, where are the non-standard hours? Like what in three Earth days, in four standard hours,

Brent: her standard hours be standard to her and not to, to like, well, what is it like? Okay. Do you remember that episode? Um, now for a word, the, the, where the, the news lady comes on.

Jeff: Cynthia Torman. Yeah.

Brent: Okay, cool. One of, one of my favorite moments of that, of that episode, it was the Clips show. That's not a clips show, and there's gonna go like 50 new comments.

It wasn't a clip show

Jeff: Yeah. Because it was not a,

Brent: because it wasn't a clip show. You're right. It wasn't, that's literally what I just said is it's not a clips show. It's a clips show without being a clips show anyway. Um, but there's a part where she's hanging outside of, um, the alien sector and she has this great line that's, that's just stuck out in my brain all this time.

And she, she says, this is the part that we refer to as an alien sector, and here comes an alien walking through and she goes, of course, to the people on the other side of that they call this part the Alien sector . I was like, that's fun.

Jeff: Fair enough. Fair enough. So they, they do their work and they're looking at stuff and they find the pattern. They find the pattern in the illogical attacks that are happening, and they're blocking out this little space. So they've, they have a target.

Brent: Cool.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Is that next episode, or are we catching up with that because we didn't do anything with it today?

Jeff: Well, we'll find out later. But what, they did do a thing though, I don't know if this'll be anything, but it just seemed like a big over over response if it's not followed up on, but they were talking about the strategy, right. And so Sheridan was like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Right? Let's corral the refugees into this one area.

And then we blast them and it just terrorizes everyone. Now they're afraid they're every, like, it just sets 'em up horribly. And he is like, That's really, that, that's great strategy. That's what I would do. And then Dalen loses her minbar

Brent: Mm-hmm. ? Mm-hmm.

Jeff: when he's like, you have to think like the enemy. And she's like, you do not think like the shadows.

You do not. And she grabbed, she grabbed him and pulled him out of the war room and that was it. Whoops. And that was it. Like that was the end of the back and forth. But I was like, oh, there's something here. Something about thinking like them. There's the, there's the seed for this episode.

Brent: Sheridan was pretty much putting his foot in his mouth in that moment.

Jeff: I, so, but I, I don't think so. He was right, like he's right. And from

Brent: This is how I would've killed your people. I would've done all of this and backed your people into it, and that's what I was going to do. Uh oh.

Jeff: kind of did actually.

Brent: yeah. I didn't handle that one the right way. . I forgot who I was talking to for a minute.

Jeff: But he wasn't wrong,

Brent: he wasn't, but it wasn't the right way to say it,

Jeff: True, true. So they fly off, we see all the new white stars in, in what I'm gonna call the most epic moment of cgi. Cut and paste. Copy and paste. That will exist until the first season of Picard Hey, look there, there's just one star fleet ship now, apparently. And there's a thousand of them here.

Brent: right, right. So there's afl I mean, like, I feel like I should be more bold over by this moment. Like, there's a whole fleet. Yeah. We're gonna go kick some butt. And I'm like, yeah, cool. I, I feel overwhelmed or underwhelmed by that

Jeff: Yeah. And, and I think we were set up to feel underwhelmed and, and so, because if you track this episode, there's that moment where they find the shadow thing and they've got a target. But beyond that, the Sheridan Deen stuff was them exploring their relationship, you know, and kind of expressing it in different ways and growing.

She even when she's like, come on the white star, I wanna show you something. It wasn't, Hey, we've got a great new tool in this war. I need to show you. It's like, I found a new place we can go park. Cuz we're basically in high school right now, the way we're, we're acting around each other, which is sweet and cool and all that great stuff.

So we're almost set up, even like on the White Star. He is like, I don't know where we're going. She's like, you're gonna see like it's some romantic gift and then it's like, oh, hundreds of massive death machines to go and take the shadows out. And so we were kind of led down one way. It took us a different place.

And then they wrap us right back into the romance thing with the big first second kiss on your, um, cause I've been watching the iTunes version of this.

Brent: Mm.

Jeff: Did it, when they did the kiss, did it go to a weird camera angle and stuff? Like the lighting got weird and stuff at all or whatever for you? Like,

Brent: No, honestly, Jeff, I think you're making too much out of the whole kiss. First kiss. Second kiss thing. I really do.

Jeff: it bothers me. It bothers me. It's the romantic

Brent: I give something. I don't know.

Jeff: But they did something with the camera that was weird and it, it's almost a like, oh, this is romantic. Let's do the whole Vaseline on the lens thing or whatever. But it wasn't, it was sur it was surreal and it was off-putting in the whole, like, dude, they got white stars.

They got thousands of 'em. Or hundreds or tens, whatever. Like they got a bunch of.

Brent: Yeah. Here's the thing, and this is, this is just where I am on the whole deal. I am ready for Dalen and John to just be a couple,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: like just actually physically just be a couple, and I don't mean that I need to see 'em waking up in bed together. What I just, they can hold hands, they can kiss, they can, they can go out on dates, they can have these little interactions like what we saw with a hey, dinner's in two hours and you're gonna be there, but, but I can't, I don't care.

You're going to be there for me. Like, those are the kind of interactions and whatever this looks like with how it's gonna lead to David and what this looks like with the one who is, versus the one who will be, and all this sort of stuff. I'm ready for them to just be a good solid couple. And the thing is, is we know that couples can be done well in sci-fi and we've seen good couples in sci-fi all, uh, Tom Paris, Balone Torres, uh, you might even say Wharf and Jaz.

Um, um, uh, uh, uh, the, the, the two guys from Discovery, what are their names? I'm blanking on them. Uh, Wilson Cruz and, and Anthony Rapp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Samson Cober. Um, Uh, uh, we've seen Good co like, hey, that's a solid there. Together, kind of a couple. We've also seen really bad couples, like

Jeff: CACO and

Brent: Rights, CACO and O'Brien, uh, uh, Kira and everyone she was ever with, including Oto.

Um, , you know, you know, you know what relationship I really wanted to see from Kira and it's, it's so meta and it seems weird, but it just seems like it would've worked. I wanted to see Mira Mira, Mira Noice and real word Noice because I think that, I know, I think that kind of as a couple would've been like, that could be interesting.

Like it's a little lowkey going in and on it kind of a deal.

Jeff: Well, it's a total Star Trek five, right? When, uh, the Shapeshifter Iman, you know, or whatever Iman played as this, like, you know, I was kissing myself. Oh, it must have been your lifelong ambition.

Brent: Jeff, I'm pretty sure we just blew every remaining Star Trek reference we have for this episode.

Jeff: all one reference.

Brent: don't know, , that's about four references shoved into one

Jeff: Yikes. And that one. So I wanna, I have a cool observation about Kar as we transition to some of

Brent: Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm, I'm waiting to get to this whole Orlando Jaar thing, so,

Jeff: So, Kar, putting things ahead a little bit, just, I just, there's just a scene I adored, and it was when Kar went to Garabaldi. . And he is like, I need you to smuggle something to Narn home world for me.

And Gar always like, ah, fine. Uh, how big is it about this high, this wide ? And so he just had like this spring in his step when he said it, that I'm just like, it was great. I, I liked them together a lot.

Brent: I still look okay. What I, but you know, what is always best is Londo and Kar

Jeff: Totally.

Brent: and for as much as people have made about Londo and Kar and, uh, a while back, Peter Juris did a, did an interview with our friends over at Gray 17 Podcast and I listened to the first half, the non spoiler field half, and he just gushed about his relationship with, um, Kalus, you know, and I'm sitting here going, you guys did stuff in the first season and frankly, we haven't seen you guys really together at all in season two or three with very few exceptions.

Jeff: convictions and dust to dust, and neither of those were good for

Brent: Right. So,

Jeff: great. They were great scenes, right, but not good.

Brent: I'm thinking something has to happen here in season four because this can't be a, Hey, this is just how it ends up in the last, like, three episodes of season five, like, , there's gotta be some time where Lando and Kar are our buddy-buddy again. Or at least they're in, maybe not buddy buddy, but they're in many scenes together, you know, and, and they bounce off each other.

Um, and I gotta tell you, Jeff, uh, and this might be jumping to the end a little bit of the whole thing, but we've said before, and I'll say it again, I don't know that there is such a thing as redemption for Lando Malar at this point, for everything he's done.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: He can try to go for redemption by freeing future Dylan and, and Sheridan and letting them go.

But I don't know that that's actually full on redemption. But I will say this, this like something happened in a conversation between Londo and Ja Car to make this happen because Lao's fudging a few of these facts. You know, like, like I know Refa was mostly behind a lot of this, but Londo really was too.

Um, but he's fudging some of these facts, but he somehow got to Kar to set up this entire plan without Veer knowing. And I can't say that this is anything about the redemption of Londo and Malawi, but it feels like this might be the beginning of some reconciliation between Londo and Kar. And I'm for some reconciliation between Londo and Jaar.

Cause I want those two characters together.

Jeff: The thing I can't get past is that in dust to dust Kar saw what happened.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: He knows the truth. So there's the scene that happened before Veer and Londo sat down to dinner that we didn't get to see. You know, the one where somehow they connected. I don't know how Londo presented it, you know, and, but hey, here's all this evidence that Reef is your bad guy.

This is all reef's fault. Gonna let you kill him. It's all cool. But Kar knows otherwise, like he knows part of the truth.

Brent: Kar knows that Londo was the guy who sicked the shadows on them. But I think if, if Kar really was in Rondo's head, he also sees what we also saw with Londo when Londo went, oh shoot. I didn't mean that crap. I didn't mean to go that far. And also Saul Refa continually pushing it down further and further and further, and Lando kind of getting swept along with it.

That's not an excuse that does not absolve him of it. But there, there is a difference between how Lando has come in and approached and what did Londo do? He also went, and I don't, was this before or after the whole? Elevators or the whole dust thing. Uh, he went to Morton and said, we're done. I'm not doing this anymore.

Jeff: So that was before. So that, yeah. So he would've seen that. What he didn't see is when he went to Refa and told him, you need to be done. Like when he, you know, went further. But I think he also, there, there's a whole piece where Rondo's motivation in this was not to save 2000 narn. It was, I don't believe it was to reconcile with Kar, it was to wipe the board of his competition and take anything that could be laid at his feet and give it to Refa.

So in the eyes of Sonari, Londo is just a dutiful sonari citizen. You know, doing, doing his job as an ambassador put it all under re So, I mean, it was totally. Self-directed, self-preservation for him and just pr, I mean, we've seen him kill before and be responsible for killing right here. Like he, what he, the way he handed refi the nans was, dude, that was cold.

That was dark. Dark. And what he did to veer.

Brent: Okay. Let's talk about that because I, like, I have less of a problem with it than I think I should. Yeah. So what, what's your take on what he did to veer sp specifically? We'll just say he completely lied to veer and quote unquote used him. But in order to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish, he had.

Jeff: Yeah. I mean, at a level what, what, what he didn't have to do was Lord over veer and talk in detail. About he was how he was going to murder every member of his family in front of the Royal Court. Like

Brent: But veer. But veer was about to chicken out. Like Veer was about to say no. And Lando needed him to go do this.

Jeff: on a scale of one to 10, right? Veer might have needed a six to get going. He hit him with an 11, like he went two F, and if I'm veer, I'm not gonna sit back and logically say, oh, you're right. They were gonna have a telepath commitment, so you needed to set things up. Right. That's fine. What I'm gonna say is, I've seen you do this stuff to people and you just told me you're gonna do it to my family.

How am I supposed to, what am I supposed to do with that?

Brent: yeah. But also, if he came in any, he's softer, veer would be like, wait, that's not what Lando does. And he'd clued into something. Like Londo had to go hardcore after him because he had to have those, those thoughts. He had to have veer like, I mean this is inception. He literally had to have veer thinking all of the worst to sell it, not to veer, to sell it to Refa.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: And, and unfortunately Veer is the pawn in the middle of that. But there's a piece of me where I'm also like, but Veer and Lando have a bank account with each other and Lando is drawing heavily on that bank account. But I will say this, based on Vere's response at the end, I think, I think Lando overdrew his account because whether or not I think it was, it was good or not, or I don't, and I don't, I'm not saying it was good, I'm just saying I understand and I don't hold him as hard to as I think you and Veer do, but I think Londo overdrew that account.

And I've gotta wonder if going forward, If this is not the rift between londo and veer, and I just want to point to, uh, the war without end. When we got to the future and we saw the scene where Londo and Ja car kill each other and, and there's the, the emperors crest on the floor and Veer walks out and he bends over and he picks it up.

And the veer had this look in this attitude about him that we've not seen before. Veer was like, finally, this is like, not finally I'm the emperor, but you are dead. And you're like, this is you, are I, you are done to me. And it this is over. Like, like he had a look on him. That was new to us. And I wonder if this is what leads to that.

Jeff: maybe what, what I kind of hope is we talked back in Seek transient veer, how I felt like he took some steps back in his, in his growth as a character in that one. Veer did. Yeah. And that this was a further step in that direction. But, but for the point of bouncing back. Right. So now, like, now he knows what's up.

He knows that the Cent, he knows that the Centara culture as a whole and the, and the, the, the facts that it propagates are race, racist and bigoted and terrible and hateful. And he knows that Londo Londo is capable of murdering his family and is gonna lord his, his, the aid he gave to the Nans. He, he, this is all fact to Londo now, and now I'm thinking, I think we'll see in season four, we'll start to see what we thought we were getting to see in season three from Veer and see him really start growing and stepping out on his own more.

That's what I hope happens from this. If it doesn't, I have a hard time taking Veer seriously from here.

Brent: Yeah, I I'm I'm with you. I hear everything you're saying about that, like,

Jeff: but on another point was we're talking about the sidekicks and where they go. I think that since the fir the end of the first season, this episode was the best use of nata. Of nata since then. . Yeah. She's just gonna, she's, yeah, there you

Brent: Honest. No, honestly, this might be the best use of NATA since Death Walker

Jeff: since Death Walker.

Brent: now, and, and that's, and we loved some nata after Death Walker, but this might be

Jeff: that was peak. That was peak nata. They said a thing. You mentioned in the recap how they were talking like, so the Minister and Refa come on board and they're kind of talking trash about the humans and Earth and Babylon. Five ministers said the Babylon five reached out wanting to be recognized by this Anari Republic.

I found that very interesting.

Brent: You know what I, I think I missed that line, but I got it at the same time. If that makes any sense.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Brent: You know, that is interesting. Like, I think I might have heard it. It just didn't hit me what that meant until you just said that, like,

Jeff: Because when they, when they seceded, it was very much, we're succeeding. We don't need Earth anymore. We're an independent state. We're ourselves. And then they went to the league, you know, a couple episodes later with the new Babylon Treaty, basically this, and I assumed that was gonna be with the League Worlds and whatever.

I didn't, I never imagined they were gonna make overtures to Centar. Did they do the same with Minbar, with, uh, with the Volans? You know, did they, Hey, will you recognize us as an independent state? Also some inc. Incredible writing, and there's a lot of incredible writing in this episode. But one piece, they're on the Narn home world and all the broken buildings, you know, and it's desolate and inside one of 'em, you go in, it's quite opulent. In fact, it looks exactly like the throne room set from Centara Prime, which they just outright say, they're like, we made this look exactly like the throne room and Centi primed so the emperor will be more comfortable.

I was like, good for you. Don't make it a different set and just own it.

Brent: Drop a line in there, hang a lantern on it. Let's move

Jeff: Boom. Move on. Do you wanna talk about the what? The, like the setup just through the setup for Refa and kind of kind of where that

Brent: I, I mean, I feel like we already have. I, I loved it. I loved every bit of it. I loved being able to go back and track it and, um, I

Jeff: Leave the face in the head. The rest is for you.

Brent: Yeah. And, and ARD just doing that so surgically too, like, we got, we have to have this for identification. We're gonna make sure this goes, like, he opens up his jacket, sticks it in his pocket, and closes his jacket and like, taps his chest a little bit and he is like, make sure that that's found on the body go, which tells me Kar is 100% complicit in this scheme of Laos,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: you know, and he's gonna hold reha accountable for all the destruction that's happened on.

On Narn and to however many millions of Narn that have died in the course of this, this whole deal. You know, um, again, I don't think it absolves londo, but

Jeff: There's, there's a lot there. I got, I, I, I, I wonder too, as we're talking like. Was there another deal? You know, Solano's gonna go make sure 2000 Nans get released. Was there something Londo was giving up for Kar? That kind of gives him a little like, okay, I'm gonna trust you on this because

Brent: mm-hmm.

Jeff: given their history, Jaar in the back of his mind has to think, okay, so I'm helping Londo set up Refa, but at the same time, is Londo still setting me up?

Brent: well, but, but why, but why does he want to do this Tofa? Why would Londo ever want to do this to Refa? Like, it, it, this is for one of two reasons to promote Londo in the Royal Court and help his own status, which, why would Kar ever, ever help Londo do that? He wouldn. But also because Lando is seeking revenge over the murder of Aira.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Of Aira. And again, I don't know that that Kar would care too much about Longo's personal feelings for this one girl, you know? But

Jeff: I could see Kar telling him, good, you killed all my people. I'm glad that this happened to

Brent: yeah, you need to feel this. But to be able to say, I'll give you someone that you can hold 100% accountable, who, let's face it, Londo wasn't, Londo wasn't wrong about Reef's involvement.

He might have been overstating the sole responsibility nature of it, it seemed like, you know, but, but he wasn't wrong about Refa. Refa really pushed this ball down the court a lot and, and frankly, Londo probably wouldn't have done what he did without Refa. Setting the stage even before the whole morden and shadows thing of saying, Hey, we could put you on the throne Londo, or we could get you in here, or we can, you know, cuz Londo was going down really a healthy route

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: up, up to that moment.

Right? So, but what this shows us though is Londo is vicious. And like Lena Heti, the person who commented us, uh, wrote us a review, he really knows how to play the Game of Thrones,

Jeff: he does.

Brent: right?

Jeff: He gets. , and then we get that incredible scene right where they got the gospel singing going, and just everything that that singer is saying is happening in real time with the beat down. A thing I observed in that, though. So all the nans, I mean, they're going like, he runs reefer runs, you know, and he just, he, oh, it was just, it was, oh, it was dark.

It was so dark. But Jaar never laid his hands on Refa.

Brent: No he didn't. Yeah.

Jeff: there's a lot, there's something to that. Like, I thought about it in terms just with the music that was playing and knowing they're singing from a, from a passage of Revelation. I was like, we're, we're seeing here is the, the, the, um, we're seeing the power of justice.

The, the in You cannot hide from the justice of God through the hand of the Arc. Angel Kar , you know, it's just,

Brent: What? You know, what, you know what I took out of that? Uh, and this kind of goes in the face of what I was saying earlier, but Kar knows. Knows that he knows that he knows about Longo's involvement in this whole thing. And while the rest of the narn may be going after Refa, who legitimately deserved what he.

Had a gnarly death. Kar is saving his hands for Londo, cuz that one's still coming. And that's, that's what I got out of that was Kars not gonna sully his hands with this guy he's saving them for, for this other one. And in this case, that's Londo.

Jeff: So my last thought on this stuff was, wasn't Morden gonna kill Refa? Like, wasn't that the whole reason Londo threw his stuff and he told Morden he wants Refa and all of his people gone. Oh my gosh. So first I was just like, what Londo was he, why, why wasn't Morton gonna do this? But maybe it was Morden who set up the deal with J.

Maybe it wasn't Londo that did it. Maybe it was Morden through someone with Kar and he still did.

Brent: It would make sense to me that there was an intermediary that went between Lando and Ja car rather than the two of them sitting down having dinner. And discussing this plan. Uh, and it needed to be somebody that was out of the eye in ears of veer,

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Brent: so

Jeff: But, but here's my thing. One of the thing we, we, we've, we've, uh, alluded to, but we haven't tracked maybe as much as we could. Rondo's got three chances, right? To avoid the worst case scenario. Major Barrett told us about that Londo had already poisoned Refa for this. Is Refa the one that was already dead?

And he killed him.

Brent: To not kill the one who was already dead. That is possible. That is possible. I, I think I said back then, I think it's actually probably Kar and it might actually still be your car, but it could be Reha. Like if it, if we came down to the end of like, Hey, you burned one of these because you killed the guy who was already dead and that was Reha, I, I'd be, huh.

That's not who I saw, but I can understand why it would be him.

Jeff: Yeah. That's why maybe, maybe that was the one, one down. You got two more chance.

Brent: W Well, Jeff, I, I think we have come to that part of the episode where it is time to boil this whole thing down, uh, and see if this show has any of that Star Trek quality to it. Is there a deep moral message? Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that things that could be better in the future, is it trying to tell us how we should better interact with our fellow man, how to be better human beings to do that and have that part of the discussion?

I'm gonna rate this episode on a scale of zero to five deltas as far as how Star Trek, quote unquote, this episode is in Jeff. You're gonna rate the scale on a zero. You are going to rate. Hmm. And Jeff, you're gonna rate this episode on a scale of zero to five star Furies as to how much we enjoyed it and how Babylon five this show is.

I want to go first talking about Deltas everything to me in this episode that revolves around the Star Trek message. The How do you Be a better human comes from Pastor Dexter. In this episode, he says to 'em at the beginning when they're in their little meeting talking about the news, he says, I would rather do something and make a mistake than be frightened into doing nothing, which is a beautiful line.

There is a phrase that I use a lot in my leadership circles, and this is, this is something that I think defines me as a person. Um, at least the way that I tend to operate and it's this, I have a, I would, I, I will err with a bias towards action. Meaning if there's a choice of whether or not to do something or not do something, I would much rather make the mistake in doing something than have the mistake being not doing anything.

You know? So if I don't know what to do, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, I'm not, instead of just being frozen, I'm going to make a choice and understand it could be the wrong one, and I'm okay with that being the wrong choice. It's better than just sitting there not doing anything to me. And he, he writes that in there and that's how you move forward.

Because if you just sit being frightened, you're not able to do anything. He also says this, he said Folks have been conned into believing that they can't change the world. But the world is changing every day. So the question is, who's doing the changing? Couple that with what I just said. Folks have been conned into believing they can't change the world to not do anything.

But the fact is the world is changing every day. So who is the one changing? You might as well be the one out there doing it. You might as well be the one out there making a difference. And you might, you might not get it right every time. You might make a mistake, but that's better than just sitting around letting things change around you and being a victim to what's happening.

Because the truth is, and this works for our world and our context right now, Jeff, things out there in the world are changing. Who is doing the change? Who's, who's changing it? And are you a part of that? And Jeff, I hope that, at least in some small way, uh, what we do through this podcast, I know what you do through Star Fleet Leadership Academy, what I've been able to accomplish through Beam Me Up and Peter Cast and a few of those other places.

Whatever other outlets we have that have nothing to do with podcasting, that those are us actively participating in changing the world, not just letting the world change around us. So I had that one, uh, that was, nothing is ever going. Nothing is going to be easy. At least nothing ever worth Wild is easy, which I thought was amazing.

Veer never breaking in. His loyalty to Lando when he's got the light shining in his face was, uh, definitely something we could, we could talk about Londo coming to Rescue Veer in those moments. Um, but when it comes down to it, again, it's back to Pastor Dexter and we go to the thing where they're intercutting, the, the service, the worship service with what's happening with Reha.

In the cave. In the cave. And Refa comes in and he's got Ja Car, and here's Refa. So Superior thinks he's gonna be something. And it flashes to Reverend Dexter and he says, Who's the real enemy? Is it the alien? Is it the one who's different? No. He says, the enemy is fear. The enemy is hate that. You must hate that, which is different.

And he says, that's the enemy, that fear, that hate, because in the end, that hate is gonna turn on you and destroy you. And then we cut to Refa, and here's Refa. This hatred he has been spewing upon the narn as a people group is about to turn on him. He tells the guards to move, but they don't. Jaar has the hollow message from Londo that this has all been a setup.

And Lando says, Hey, REFA, your constant mismanagement has weakened the Sonari. Your hatred of them has made us weaker.

He's also really pissed. Londo off as well. , you've made me mad in the middle of that. And so he's about to get what's gonna be done to him by the narn. Those aliens by the way, which are different from him that he hates.

This is a mirror of where we are right now, at least in this country. And as I read international reports, we're seeing it all over the world too. This idea that, that we are hating these other people, that we're hating, uh, them because they're different. And the truth is, honestly, we're more alike than we are different.

But I'm gonna hate that person because of the color of their skin. I'm gonna hate that person because of their political view. I'm gonna hate this person because of who they voted for. I'm gonna hate that person because of where they live. I'm gonna hate that person because of their gender. And how they choose to live their life.

I'm gonna hate that person because of whom they love or who loves them back. And that hate is gonna turn on you and destroy you.

And then you get to, obviously to the song the sinner is gonna be running at the knowledge of their fate. The rock cries out, there's no hiding place, and Refa is running and dying. It was, it was an amazing look at, I think exactly what leads to the thing that destroys you. And I will say this to my fellow countrymen here in America, and I will say this to my fellow humans around the world, we have to end hate That is the enemy because when we hate each.

That is the thing that will destroy us by the end of this whole deal. This is what makes the Star Trek vision, the Gene Roddenberry vision of the future, so compelling that we on Earth have gotten over that. Now, not everybody out there has, and I know Babylon five doesn't. Babylon five's not, Hey, we're already there.

It's kind of how we get there. I get that, but that's what makes that destination a worthwhile goal, is to get past that part where we can live in harmony and we can live in unity. And by the way, that's what becomes so attractive. Okay? And I know we're talking, no, not this, this is the Star Trek piece, right?

Like that's why the federation got so big, not through conquest. People looked over there and said, I want to be a part of that. That looks really cool. Let's fold into that idea. It grew by willing addition, not conquering the way that the empires did, you know? That kind of basically love is attractive when you live in love that is attractive and other people want that getting rid of the hate we've got, we and you, and you know, you know where it starts, Jeff, and I'll end here.

It starts with stopping grouping people together and stripping them of their humanity. Oh, the Narn. No, no, no. That's Kar and that's Jaqua, and that's Jamal, and that's Jamma, and that's J whatever. Like, those are people, those are individuals. Not everybody. Who, who is of this racial, uh, ethnicity? Everyone who's of this gender?

Everyone who is of this, uh, uh, you know, political party and affiliation. Uh, you sh when you group them together, it's easy to hate them because they lose their individualism and their humanity. Give them their humanity and love because that is what attractive, and that's what'll save you. Otherwise, you're gonna destroy yourself, Jeff.

This one is right smack in your face. This is what this episode came to be about, right? Like at the end, like, like a lot of times we talk about like, Hey, the episode was really about some other stuff, but here's some things we pulled out of it. No, no. This is what this episode was about. Refa getting his comeuppance and here's why he got that comeuppance.

Jeff, I'm having a hard time not giving this five star furious. I don't know that it gets five, uh, star furious, uh, uh, deltas. I don't know that it gives five, but I'm gonna give this one like four and a half Deltas straight out and it, I really easily could be convinced to go to five, but I'm gonna give it four and a half.

Jeff: You said incredible things. In your recap and I, and and I was really moved by the concept of hate in, in and of itself and how even people who sit in righteous positions who believe that they are a person oriented person that loves all and understands that hate is bad, can still spew hate. And I think about this and what we see and what runs, and I'll speak to the United States.

I don't, I don't think this is different in other countries, but I haven't experienced it. But I don't care if you're a Republican. I don't care if you're a Democrat. When someone on the other side of you does a thing that you don't agree with, it seems like it's okay to make fun of them. How they look, how they sound, how they dress.

It seems like it's okay to wish that they die. And that's not okay. Right? Hate, hate does, hate is, is, is, it has no, it does not discriminate. Right? It doesn't matter where you land on the political spectrum. It doesn't matter what color your skin, your anything hate's pretty universal. I talk a lot on this podcast about my faith in being a Catholic, and I truly believe that Catholicism is a religion and a faith of love and acceptance.

And I know that hundreds of you just got activated by me saying that. But when you read the actual catechism and what the, the church and the faith teaches it is wildly, wildly accepting. It's the people. It's the people that come in and are then put into positions of power that. Explicitly or implicitly exude hate in how they interpret that word and put it forward.

We talk in the United States about the Bible belt, right? We, we experience things in these, in these states that are supposedly Christian states or whatever, that, that have all these hateful, uh, policies and things that's there. There is not a religion, there is not a major religion today that espouses hate.

Not Christian, not Jewish, not Islamic, n n none, not Hindu, not by none of them. They're not hateful. It is the people that come in and make those things happen. In this episode, this is what we saw. We saw hate personified. We saw hate personified in Refa. We saw hate personified in Londo, we saw personified in Jaar and the nans who ripped a living bean apart limb from limb.

But we also saw love. Right. We saw the love that the religious leaders had for each other. It was expressed right in joking with each other and little jabs and things like that. We saw the love between Dalen and Sheridan. And even though like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna rip up. It's like, I don't like some of the ways that it happened.

Who cares? It's not my relationship. I'm not the one that's doing the love, right? So it's cool, but they love each other and they're doing absolutely incredible things. As a side note, I fully endorse, understand, and think the name of this ti This episode is great. They could have subtitled it, the assassination of Brother Theo.

Um, but that's just, that's just an aside. Brent. We've talked, uh, quite a few times now on this podcast about their incredible Star Trek message. That have that, that shine through all sci-fi. Right? And we say Star Trek message, we mean these moral messages that you, Brent, myself, put a label of Star Trek on because, because of our experience.

But it's not Star Trek. This isn't just Star Trek. This is how to be a good human 1 0 1 kind of stuff. Or maybe 3 0 1. I don't know. It's, it, it, it seems to be more advanced than it should be. People should understand these things, but, but here we are. But what Babylon five does is it takes those messages and it delivers it in ways that no one else is delivering it.

You know? I mean, let's tell you that you can't run away from justice while singing an old gospel hymn. And like with rousing passion and excitement while we watch a horrifying and brutal and maybe earned murder that's happening. Oh my gosh. Wow. It's wild. So I'm gonna pull a play from your book. I think four and a half star theories, or four and a half Deltas.

I think it's fair. I could definitely see five. This episode had some stuff in it that we didn't, can't necessarily articulate that we're kind of Mm. In, its in its, uh, execution a little bit, so I'm not gonna give it five. I'm gonna give it four and a half Delta Furies, because this had an incredible message that was delivered in a complete Babylon five way and was just, I mean, it was really powerfully done.

Brent: I like it. I, anytime we pull Delta furries, When, when, like that is, that is the gold the goal and the gold

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: when, when Babylon five does the awesome sci-fi thing because sci-fi is a medium that you can discuss these issues with that you can't do in your, your procedural courtroom dramas on tv. You Right.

Exactly. Gilmore Girls can face other conversations, but it's not gonna have the, it's not gonna have the same weight as what these have. It's not gonna do what sitcoms can do that have done so effectively. And I think of episodes of Golden Girls and Family Matters and, uh, fresh Prince of Bel Air and those, those sorts of episodes.

Um, but when it does the sci-fi thing that we label as Star Trek in a way that only Babylon five can do, that's the gold. That's, that's awesome. And I love that. I love. I love the star, uh, the, the Delta Fury. Well, with that, Jeff, you know, we've had a a, I don't know that I call this a game. As much as this is just a thing we now do, we are creating the absolute 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of the third season of Babylon five. And Jeff, this week it falls to you, my friend, where are we gonna place?

And the rock c cried out no hiding place. You have 19 other episodes to figure out where to slot this into. By the way, the current top five is war without in Part one. I'm sorry, war without in part two. Number two is war Within Part One, severed Dreams, point of room of return and ship of tears. That's just your top five.

Where are we placing this?

Jeff: Season three's been so strong. Like, it's like there are not, when, when, when you look at the list, like the, the lower ranked, the lower ranked episodes, a lot of them are, are, are, they're top 10 in season one or season two, if not top, you know, arguments for top, well, I don't know about top five in season two.

Season two

Brent: Season two had a great top half.

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: It's just a really weak bottom half.

Jeff: yeah, very Season three has been pretty darn solid through and through. When I look at these, you know, it, it, it, it's funny how when I look at this passing through Gethsemane as such a watermark for me, and I think it was just such a unique episode and it set such a theme for this, but this was, this was more than that.

It was, it was more than interludes and examinations, you know, which was a great, it was also great. I, I, I, mm. Wow. I always struggle with this, right?

Brent: I mostly struggle just trying to remember what happened in each episode by this one title

Jeff: I know sometimes it gets hard, especially now, like I, I remember back like early in the second season, people are like, oh my gosh, Jeff, you remember all the things? I'm like, yeah, we've seen 25 episodes.

Brent: That's easy, right?

Jeff: Yeah. It's like what? Our 64th or 65th?

Brent: They're starting to, they're, they're starting to, to, to meld together, right?

Jeff: Yeah, just a little

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: So, so to me right now, I'm, I'm like, am I gonna make this number six, um, over messages of Earth, or am I gonna make this number seven over interludes and examinations?

And Brent, I, I'm just such a sucker for that whole messages from Earth and, uh, you know, uh, pointed overturn, severe dreams, trilogy, it hurt me. It hurt me when we put ship of tears in there, even though it belongs there, it's the right place. But breaking that up, I'm gonna make this our new number seven.

I'm gonna put it right above interludes and examinations.

Brent: Yeah. I, I can't, uh, I can't argue with that and I'm not really allowed to, uh, I might have pushed it down one or two spots. This would've been well over Gray. 17 is missing to me. Um, would it have been overpassing through guests? Like, like this is one, you know, you're, it's in that, that middle section, right.

Of rock creed out, interludes and examinations and passing through. Guest Enemy. Take those three episodes, write 'em on a piece of paper, throw those piece of paper in a bag, shuffle it up, and reach it and grab one. That's kind of where you are on this one to me right now. So, uh, I'm, I'm with you on that.

I'm with you on that.

Jeff: Well, if you don't agree with us, that's okay. You don't have to, but you can express that you don't agree with us when you write. Your review of us on Apple Podcast, pod chaser, uh, good pods, audible, all those places to enter into our drawing. That's coming up in just three episodes.

Brent, we've got two more regular season episodes and then in our season three wrap up, we're gonna go through the reviews that we've gotten. So get like right now, pause the video, pause the replay in your pod, your pod catcher app and go leave that review. Brent's showing it on the YouTube

Brent: Look at this. This is, this is the backside. Look at that detail in the back of the cockpit area, right.

Jeff: that fusion engine

Brent: I know, right? Like, man, get this to nasa. They should be able to do something with this.

Jeff: Seriously. Even with that, yeah, with that design, they can reverse engine into that, into an actual star theory. It's that good.

Brent: Right. Just use the name, star Fury and it's all good.

Jeff: And that can be yours if you review us and then we're gonna do a drawing and we're not gonna give away just. We're gonna give away two. So more than one chance. Get it in and on our season three wrap up, we'll be giving it away. And I think it's important because as of this moment now we're done. That is it.

Fer End the Rock. Cried out, no hiding place. Next week we're watching Shadow Dancing for the first time.

Brent: really.

Jeff: Shadow Dancing. Shadow dance. We've never seen these episodes before.

Brent: please, I'm sorry. Please tell me Kevin Bacons in this episode. Please tell me Ke or Patrick Swayze. I'll take him too.

Jeff: I'll lose my, I'll lose my mind. It's so amazing. Brent, we don't know anything about this. We know the title Other than guessing that this is gonna, gonna gonna have an all-star cast, uh, what do you think Shadow Dancing's gonna be about?

Brent: Um, I, I, I mean we're at that spot of the, the, the series. Um, obviously, uh, this has to do with the shadows. You don't invoke that name without it having to do with the shadows. Right. Um,

Jeff: it's Geometry of Shadows or Cuming of shadows or any other times, they've invoked the name shadows, and it actually had nothing

Brent: you know what, I take back what I said cuz you're a hundred percent right. Um, but I'm still gonna say this. Some has something to do with the shadows. I think, uh, the war with the, the new, um, white star fleet that they have and the telepath thing, they're out there trying it out and I think it's going well.

For the humans, and they've made some strides. I'm not saying that they're, they've got the shadows back on their heels or anything yet, but they're, they're making, they're making a lot of noise. They're making it dent in the whole thing. And the shadows have to shift their tactics. That's the dancing thing.

They're gonna shift their tactics to become a tide turner. Cuz lemme tell you where we are right now on the show. Okay? This is the spot where everything has to go wrong and every like, like, we've got to get everybody into the worst spot that you could be. This is, this is Han Solo going into the, into the, the Carbonite and, and, and Luke losing his arm and, and everything that just happened.

You know what I mean? This is, uh, this is, this is dumble door falling off the tower and you've just lost the only protection that you really had. This is, this is, you get to that moment, you know what I mean? And this is narratively speaking. What I'm, where I'm guessing we're going, so things are gonna go, I think we're gonna start well, but we're gonna end up in a probably not great spot for Babylon.

Five.

Jeff: I like that. I struggle with this one a little bit because I think, I think they're gonna take a good chunk of time in the next episode on building their fleet, right? Like they got the white stars. Is that enough? You know, are they gonna pull in the league worlds? You know, we saw Kar ride in with the cavalry a while ago, so it's like organizing all all of that and getting it ready.

And I think that's kind of, I, I, I, I I, I believe also things are gonna start moving south. And so it's gonna be during the buildup that something kind of goes wrong and sets up what will then lead to the big fight. That will be the, the season. The season finale. Like this is gonna be a build build. Oh no.

And then we're going to, not cliffhanger necessarily, but like we're going to Oh, no. Into the, into the, the finale. But I think a huge part actually of this story is gonna lean on the telepaths that are out, kind of, you know, destroying the shadow ships. That's where things go south for the shadows, is they're not prepared for telepaths at this scale.

But I think the real story in it is actually gonna be ivanova exploring something in her role as a latent telepath. I don't know if it's gonna be feelings of inadequacy. Seeing what others can do and her not being able to pull it out or the exact opposite where actually she's gonna tap into something where her latent telepathy is actually the exact telepathy that makes a big difference for the shadows.

But this is gonna, ultimately, I think this is gonna plant a seed in her character that will become a big part of her arc in the fourth season.

Brent: I haven't, I haven't thought about, uh, Ivanova as a latent telepath a whole lot.

Jeff: It hasn't been brought up.

Brent: I, I've, is it possible for her telepathic abilities to, bloom and not be latent anymore at this age in her life?

Jeff: We saw that happen with Talia. I mean, Jason Iron Earnhardt helped pushed it along, but she went from being like a P five to all of a sudden being a. A te a

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: had telekinesis. Yeah. And, and, and be much stronger, um, for things. But I mean, she was maybe that, maybe it is an Iron Heart or some sort of ascended

Brent: Ooh. Oh, oh. So Talia got dissected

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and Ghost Talia Energy. Talia comes back and does something right, and she and Ivanova have an affair.

Jeff: Yep.

Brent: but Ivanova absorbs everything that tall, ya ha. All of that energy now combined with her latent telepathic abilities and Ivanova becomes like a P 50.

Jeff: Right. Carries on the tallest storyline that the, uh, actress messed up that j m s was like, you're outta here. Oh, we'll just plop that onto Ivanova and make her even cooler.

Brent: I like it.

Jeff: It should work out, and we're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you so much for joining us. If you haven't already, please like follow us, subscribe wherever you're listening or watching.

And like I said, get your review in. We're gonna do a drawing here in just a couple of weeks for those cool star theories. So go get that in as soon as you can. So, hey, until next

Brent: Hey, Jeff. Hey Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: Okay, so seriously stop me if you've heard this one before.

Jeff: Okay. All right, here we go. This'll be good.

Brent: A priest, a rabbi, and a minister. Were all in a boat in the middle of a lake

Jeff: I know, Brent. The rocks. I got it. Okay. All right, we got it. Uh, peace, victory. Long life.