Babylon Squared | For the Second Time

[0:00] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters and then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and that changed everything now we're watching this incredible series for the second time paying attention to all those things we didn't see or notice the first time around and don't worry guys we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we know you guys love we love them you love them we all love them after all that's why we watch sci-fi that and the cool pew pew pew this time though we are watching specifically for that list miss test we've been using for a very long time now jeff we've refined it since the last time we watched this episode we're looking for messages that hold up a mirror to society we're looking for things that give us hope that things can be better in the future or things that teach us how to be better human beings to one another.

[1:26] Love it so much. That being said, I've already referenced that we have seen this episode before. Yep. That's what makes this the second time from this point forward. This is your fair warning for spoilers. They will, and probably are going to abound. They could be from any point in anywhere in that timeline of Babylon five from any episode in any season, any spinoff, any extra source materials, all of it is ahead. So if you've not watched the set season yet, if you've not watched this episode, if you've not watched this incredible show, stop right here, join us, go backwards in our playlist and check out our first watch of this and join us there. And when you've gotten through the whole series, trust us, you want to do it this way. Do not jump in on the spoilers ahead. Okay. Trust us, go back and do the first one. And when you get through it, then come back and join us here. That'd be great. We'll be here waiting for you. Brett, to all of our recordings, we invite our council chambers tier subscribers to our patreon and there's a chat going on over here and they've been talking quite a bit if you're listening on the audio podcast behind brent is uh what is is that uh it's darth vader is that michael j fox back there.

[2:36] You're stirring up quite a bit of conversation. It's great. Of course, I'm talking about, well, spoilers are abound here. I'm talking about The One wearing a space suit standing behind Brent because tonight, Brent, we're watching Babylon. Not The One. Not The One. Not yet, at least, right? The One has to bake for a little bit longer. The Other One. Or The Other The One. The Other The Other The Other One? Which one? I don't know which one. The Other The One. The Other The One. Oh, man. But no, we're going to watch Babylon Squared here for the second time tonight. When we watched this episode the first time, I remember just being over, like, I freaking loved this episode. I thought that it was brilliant. I loved how they just kind of wove so many different things in. They answered questions. They left mysteries for us. I just remember thinking it was absolutely masterful. I am quite infamous. I'm so famous that I'm infamous about some of my views on Zathras.

[3:39] Are you infamous? Si, el guapo. El guapo. We still got to do that one, man. We still got to watch it. But even as far back as this episode, I can remember thinking that the character, not necessarily Zathras was ridiculous, but all the Earth Alliance people around him became ridiculous because they're like, let's go chase this guy down who's trying to run away in an enclosed space station with nowhere to go jeff this episode this is the one this was the one this is the one yes this is a seminal episode it is excellent in every way zathras is a phenomenal character you immediately want to take one home with you like zathras is amazing it is arguably the best it's inarguably the best of season one i don't anticipate that changing at all although it's possible but i don't think it's going to change at all this episode got even better when we got to season three with war without end and it all figures so prominently in that episode as well and it just it took what was already an amazing episode and made it better as we're looking back on it now this is a great episode top to bottom i have a question kind of a thought exercise something that you and i would never know because this isn't how we did it you and i have both had friends where we have tried to get them into babylon five and they're like oh i got through like a couple episodes of first season I just couldn't handle it and I dipped out.

[5:01] Totally understandable right jms has said a few times you and i have encountered people like okay listen here are the handful of episodes you really need to watch and then just move on yeah what do you know what do you miss i think the episodes we've said you kind of have to watch are signs importance babylon squared chrysalis maybe midnight on the firing line i think maybe on that one but maybe because you don't i don't think we need anything but with are there things in this episode i'm really curious are there things in this episode you just wouldn't know you wouldn't get you wouldn't understand they're actually kind of pivotal to the episode without having all of the world building that has happened before like particularly the history of the babylon stations and uh the hole in sinclair's mind and the build-up with all of that and what's going on with the lynn and her whole deal with the great council and what what all is that and i don't know i don't know maybe it's just fine maybe not maybe new viewers they'll get everything they need to know and they can go on i don't know that'd be fun to watch without lens but i do know one thing we would definitely miss out on is fasten or zip or zip and fasten. That's this episode.

[6:04] That's so fun. It is. That's so fun. By the way, fasten and then zip. Yep. Which is, well, that's the other way around. It's just dangerous. I'm just saying, I've seen there's something about Mary. It's just dangerous. Thing is though, if you fasten and then zip, you run the risk of unauthorized hot dog sales. So we used to say back in middle school, what are you selling hot dogs? We're smart.

[6:26] In middle school, that'd be more like a beanie weenie hey let's stop that uh line so hey brett i went back and i listened to our for the first time episode i did really i did is that really totally on a lark i was like did you learn anything a little bit it was totally worth it you know what we've talked about this i really dig going back and listening to our first time episodes it's fun it's like entertaining to listen to also i get so mad at us oh yeah don't you what is wrong with you how could you think that didn't you notice that thing they showed that on the screen one of your face, it was one time on the screen eight episodes ago how did you not see that how did you not make that connection it was right there i get it i totally get that now but uh this episode for the first time was a huge set one of our long-standing traditions into place did it we announced our first giveaway why and in keeping with that tradition as we end Babylon 5 for the second time season one Jeff we're probably not going to do anything special I don't know we haven't talked about anything at least.

[7:36] A big build up and all the way down but uh wash our good buddy wash made a bunch of stuff including the babylon five station itself and dude right here on my desk wash buddy still got it man it's it's here on my desk you're awesome very good work that ppg mine too like it's just it's mine has fell a couple of times i have a little display thing it's on in the hallway and it's fallen still totally solid yeah that's so good but you brent uh you your statement on this episode was wow a lot happened and not a lot happened really they went into Babylon 4 and they rescued some people but it was good tv yeah I do the the some of the best episodes are the most simple when you boil it down it is the most simple plot yeah it really is the best they're absolutely the best have you ever have you ever watched Jeff I know you have have you ever watched the uh the this is a whole series of movies um it's out in space and there's like a big like like dog man and they're flying around like a little flat disc ship star wars once or twice i think i've seen it heard of it thought about like like if you look at the actual narrative of each of the films it's really small you know like there's this big gap of space in between each of the movies but like what happens within the actual movie itself is pretty minimal right you think about a new hope It's like dude meets an old man with a lightsaber.

[9:00] They find out there's a Death Star. They go join the group that's going to blow up the Death Star, and they blow it up. Yeah, that's it. That's the whole story.

[9:08] Well, not Babylon squared as well. Well, apparently. But it's great. We both noted, though, that we were satisfied with the explanation of what happened to Babylon 4. One of the big questions coming into this episode, and we're like, oh, very satisfied. So in another thing Jeff's very famous for, so famous he's. Famous when uh so the len leaves the council in in this episode and i thought that she was being selfish just making decisions on her own that only benefit herself and no one else did you really and you vehemently disagree yeah and i will continue to vehemently disagree we'll see we'll watch it this time and see if you can come around to i didn't realize that your delin hate started so early i didn't realize that either i was i was pretty passionate about it and as we're this was probably one of our first mom and dad are fighting moments that we had on the show okay all right we've had a few of those a little bit yeah hopefully they're entertaining hope so you did an incredible thing in this episode that we got to repeat a handful of times.

[10:09] But this has the uh the commercial break in it does it really is this the one yeah You worked that into the show, which is awesome. Let's see. You liked Zathras and said that you could handle him maybe one more time, but no more than like once a season. Okay, yeah. And that's kind of what I said, you know, in the end. I'm just like, Zathras was a few minutes away from being too much, which doesn't mean I don't like him. It just means like they used him to exact capacity. And we'll see him in War Without End. And then one more episode after that, right? Yeah, we see him in the one with Ivanova works with him down in The Great Machine.

[10:47] When she goes to, like, turn on the antenna or whatever. Yeah, the voice. Because that's really all The Great Machine was good for in the overall story. It's just a super-powered antenna, yeah. And then we see him in The Road Home. Yeah, and it's great in The Road Home. It was great. You were very curious about him. We both wanted to know more. I thought that Sinclair was not the one because of what Zathras said, and I thought that Delenn was the one. Turns out I was right. You're 50-50 on that. Right? Well, at the time, Sinclair was not the one. Right. So, I mean, you know, I predicted that Lise Hampton, who we got our first little glimpse of last time, she's going to play a really big role for Garibaldi in the future. It's true. That is true. She really did. And then this started a lot of our conversations around the idea of possible futures. Lady Ladera, you know, when she came in and she said, that's a possible future. And so we thought that this showed, um, the possibility of one future with Havana in the station, getting all blowed up the other, you know, future with, uh, what we thought was earth force attacking the station and the note we'll see in the Babylon four stuff. So we just, this began a real thing of, well, what's the point of, you know, knowing the future if none of it's baked or whatever.

[12:00] And we had four big questions to close the whole thing out. Okay. So Dylan makes a big deal about the prophecy. What is the prophecy? This is the thing that led her down the path of transitioning to human. Correct. The triluminary. What's the deal? What's the deal with B4? Zathras kept referring to the great war. So is the great war something that's avoidable or is it inevitable? So in my head, and here's what I'm not sure you might know, or maybe we'll find out. Is that great war is it the one that was a thousand years ago that they went back in time for or is it the new war that's about to happen with the vorlongs in the shadows i'm pretty sure it's the thousand years ago one yeah and then at the end uh we said who is the they that are waiting for future sinclair and delen and we get that answer in war without end and that they is that's like you're sheridan and marcus and the whole crew just waiting back for hey we're time traveling time traveling it's a good time join us and see what is yours and mine now jeff correct me if i'm wrong and we'll talk about this more later when we get there but wasn't wasn't war without end like originally supposed to be like the closing of the whole show something like that it was supposed to be the thing that wraps the whole thing up well that's back when in the initial treatment i think that's what i mean yeah like where was that and would end babylon five and then.

[13:25] And then that would lead to the next series it was going to be called babylon prime gotcha i will listen to the episode brent you went back and scoured the internet for statements from jms so let's sit back i'm sure he had a lot to say on this one what did you find there was so much and i'm going to do my best to boil this down um for for everyone out there uh in this episode there There's a man who shouts at Garibaldi and Sinclair, and I don't know what he's talking about here, so we're going to have to watch for this, Jeff, okay? There's a man who shouts at Garibaldi and Sinclair. JMS says what he says might provide clues about the nature of the opponents in another scene. Oh, okay.

[14:03] So let's listen for that and see if we can figure out exactly what he's talking about there. JMS also says to look closely at what's inside the transparent case that's given to Dillon. It's an object that has been shown before in a previous episode. that's very clearly we can both look at that and go he's talking about the triluminary yeah this is where she gets that um apparently we get a we get a an instance of invisibility in this episode or something of that nature okay and oh yeah he's he has he states he's like the only instance of invisibility we've seen in the series up till this episode was in the war prayer and that was developed by earth uh suggesting that perhaps the attackers here might actually be human and we and, JMS also said, and he speculated, the end of this episode will cause more speculation, consternation, and astonishment than anything you've seen on TV in a very, very, very long time. I don't know that it caused that much consternation. I'm going to straight up disagree. With the statement but you know it's a speculative speculative statement so it's okay well i mean.

[15:04] You know we're also watching this in a post like lost because we all remember the conversations that happened when lost was on tv but we all anyone who's like born from 1990 or before anybody watching this let's be serious be honest here that's most of you yes yes we all remember and i mean the lost is what launched water cooler talk about tv i mean it really gave you appointment tv back in the day so uh maybe it was up till then we're just watching it on the on the back side of that um now jms called babylon squared and chrysalis the two best episodes of the entire season i'll give him half credit on that one i agree but i'm also going to hold judgment i think chrysalis is going to hit a lot differently on a second time you know you and i were briefly mentioning this and i'll just say it here for posterity's sake, understanding we have not watched it yet for the second time i remember thinking chrysalis was very yeah yeah it was like it wasn't bad but it wasn't like oh my god it's so good i mean especially now we have tko on exactly or infection come on yeah for real so talking about the production of this episode and the the the sudden cuts back and forth the sicky sickly green light in babylon 4 um he said it was all done really intentionally to give us this maximum jarring effect as we're watching so let's note that as we go through like how is this making us feel it's supposed to be making us feel anxious and and feel like there's this threat that's just sort of.

[16:32] Emanating all over the place um so they were they were trying to artistically lead us into that and as a guy who works in production design um for live theater anyway i really like i i appreciate when people do stuff like that so i'm interested in looking forward to that um now we know that the uh the the suit you and i know this the suit that's in clear the suit right back here was from uh space odyssey 2001 and lots of people make a lot of big deals about the fact that it's this it's a it's a nod it's an homage nope means absolutely nothing it's just what the costuming department had on hand yeah it was available this is what we all it was the costume department just had it so um it was just he literally says it was literally all that was hanging in the closet for them to use that's it uh apparently people were speculating if zathras was of two different races like a hybrid species jms says no he's just his own race um he's hayak doe is what you figured out.

[17:31] He's just one, he's, he is one of his own race. So here's my question. What races do we think people were trying to think he was a hybrid of gas human? I have a guess. Yeah. If you, if you look at them, if you were to put a hybrid of a Narn and a Centauri together and think, think about what that could mean. If you think about a time traveling creature or something like Zathras, you know, but then And the other question is kind of like with horses and mules, and then you get horses and donks, and then you get a mule. Would a Zathras be able to procreate themselves? Well, they do. They just do it by budding. Cloning or whatever.

[18:11] Now, Babylon 5, did you know this, Jeff? I didn't know this. Babylon 5 is actually smaller than Babylon 4. I do remember hearing something about that. Yeah, yeah. Um, which basically was a logistical thing because they sunk most of their budget into Babylon four and, uh, they had to really scrimp and save when they got to Babylon five. So it's, it's a bit smaller. Here's a question you and I have often had Jeff. Babylon's one through four were located roughly in the same sector of space. Babylon four used materials leftover from one, two, and three, like that. They kind of gathered as they exploded and stuff. Babylon five was constructed about three hours time travel from the location. They're like we're gonna just move it over here that's a bad juju spot we're gonna move it over here which is interesting because it means that what this wasn't always around epsilon 3 yeah now one of the questions we have asked oh yeah go ahead theory so the minbari were very involved in the construction of babylon 5 the funding of that's why they got to pick sinclair as the commander i wonder if them working with the vorlons had knowledge of the great machine and zathras and everything that was there and they're the reason that Babylon five got created there. Possibly.

[19:21] Possibly part of the, you know, there's, I mean, there's all sorts of stuff about it from, I think, canonically, everything we've seen, the great machine was built on the planet about 500 years ago, which means that that's where they had the other war 1000 years ago. This was built sometime in the inter about the midpoint of the intervening time. So it wouldn't have necessarily been there. Like this machine would have had to have been built because we knew that's where it was going to go. Yeah. And that's where I think it's all part of the prophecy. I think the great machine was built to facilitate war without end. Like that's the, that's the whole reason it exists. Yeah. And so, and Kosh was going back in time and flipping and everything back and forth. So there you go. Um, anyway, uh, so we've talked about why, and we always just assume this is a production. Remember Dylan had the triangle thing on the forehead and the other guy.

[20:12] Why, when we see the council, are there no triangles on their foreheads? He answers that question. Okay. Okay. He has an answer. He says, while the triangle is one element of the Grey Council's symbology, it is not present and visible at all times and under all circumstance. It has a particular purpose and meaning. From which I got, that's absolutely no answer at all. It has a purpose when the plot calls for it, and it's never going to call for it again. Right. And sometimes it's seen, and sometimes it's not. Come on, dude. Right. Come on. It's a mystery. Right. Asking another question about the Grey Council, does the Grey Council live permanently on that ship? His answer is they stay on the cruiser almost entirely during their tenure on the council, only leaving for personal family crisis situations and stuff like that. So they still have lives back home. It's a it's a real stick point. And in a novel, I'll mention a couple of times, I think, in this watch to dream in the city of sorrows. It's a it's a point of contention. You know, oh, you guys are out there in your cruiser. You have no idea what's going on down here. You're out of touch. And so there's definitely a rub that happens there because of it. Last question is the Triluminary. Does it have anything to do with the sculpture and Dylan's quarters that we've seen her building? The answer is yes. Also, on a first time watch, who's putting those pieces together?

[21:26] Who's noticing that Dylan is building a damn thing in her quarters? Exactly. Yeah. Like, seriously. Come on. Like, you might be like, we're examining it the way you and I do. It's like, what is she doing? Is that a thing? Because it kind of looks like when they go to her that she's just sort of doing a thing. I'm not, it doesn't look like she's building a structure over the course of several episodes. It's like, uh, what is it back and watch it? Kalto or whatever that like meditative thing to box. It just looks like, yeah, it was just a thing. Yeah. Putting a house of cards because it's what I do to keep my hands busy. So anyway, uh, Jeff, that's what I got out of the lurker's guide for Babylon squared. Well, dude, I am ready to watch this thing. How about you? I love it. Let's get into it. Cool. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Uh, every episode is somebody's first. and I imagine this is quite a few people's first because it's Babylon freaking squared. Like, this is one to watch for sure. If you're watching us on YouTube.

[22:20] Then you're going to see kind of the edited cut up version of this, the reaction video style thing that comes from here. If you want to see the full unedited version of this, we post that up on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's the number five and the word first. And there's a link down in the show notes that you can click to get there. Especially if that link has been updated. Yeah, I think it has. Oh, no, no. Like here in the near future should be very near future. actually. Yeah. With that, if you're also listening to us on an audio podcasting app of that nature, cause, uh, you know, let's face it, Jeff, you and I got faces for radio and podcasting. Come on. Podcasting.

[23:00] Uh, Hey, listen, if you're listening to us over there, totally awesome. Uh, you're going to hear the reaction. We're going to keep that in the cut. We used to cut it out, but we're not anymore because we want you guys to join in on the fun with us. And then after that, we are going to get together and we'll have our discussions of everything we had going on during the episode. So, Jeff, with that, hit that magic button. Let's go. Accessing file.

[23:22] Oh, I remember this. Oh, it's this intro. Oh, I love this one. You look like hell. I know. It's pretty routine, but I authorized Alpha 7 to go. Sorry. Sorry. I was in a room today where there was a physics professor who was talking to a bunch of young kids. Right. And I'm just sitting there. I'm in the front row for whatever reason. And he starts saying he's he starts talking about different like different things with with science reality and science fiction and the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars and why one's based on fantasy. But he goes on to talk. He starts talking about tachyons. He goes, this guy's like two years older than I am, Jeff. Like he's he's one of us. Right. Yeah. Total nerd. Like he's like, yeah, I spend all my time watching sci fi TV shows and playing Zelda. Like that's this guy. Right. That's the professor.

[24:09] Anyway, he goes, he goes, so tachyons, tachyons are a theoretical particle. Like we don't know if they really exist, but they're a theoretical particle that actually move faster than the speed of light. Which means and he looks at me i goes time travel it's like that's what it means it means time travel it all he's like yes every time means time travel tachyons and chronitons right and i was like yes a theoretical particle that that travels faster than the speed of light which is supposedly i i have a hard time ever saying anything in physics is actually impossible right it's impossible until we prove it's not sector 14 that's a pretty long haul in normal space sigler's leaning right in he's like let's do this the time i learned mornings was during the three years i spent being taught by jesus his voice could put me to sleep totally listen to him go breathing in breathing out breathing in he just needs to like put a finger on her nose and start stroking down right like my favorite part here is where garibald is like i just happen to have some extra dishes here, he does he just has empty dishes next to him i remember talking about that the first time around.

[25:12] Well what oh that was great boy just hit the spot you cleaned your plate too guess i better get going he points out the empty dish 7 30 i didn't even i slept through breakfast this isn't fair is that something lieutenant commander no nothing i'm fine do they actually look like they're having a good time together in that right that's that hopefully they filmed this episode a little earlier before things got bad you identify alpha seven not quite i can't make it out holy mary mother of avonava look at that thing.

[25:47] It just can't be for the third age of mankind so i was i was looking while i was looking for photos of this guy who here who's behind me i ran across a few other drawings of babylon 4 okay now the way i've always seen babylon 4 is this really kind of this really big not as long as babylon 5 like like a little more stumpy but really fat machine right but the way these drawings had it it was actually really long and and slender but uh and it wasn't fat it was just more voluminous you know and i was like that actually looks really cool but every time else i've seen it it just looks like it just has this like fat belly like right in the middle of it it's one of those examples of hey we're doing CG ahead of the curve and maybe you shouldn't, uh, or no, maybe you should, because this is what pushed it forward. Is it though? I think it is. Babylon five pushed it. Season one, Babylon five pushed it forward. The entirety of Babylon five period pushed it forward. Well, it benefited from a lot of other CG work, like Pixar and other stuff that was going on. Sure. But it, it brought it to television and made it more accessible that way. Okay. I don't know why. that just went back. Colin's correct. Someone did have to be first. So... Babylon controlled Alpha 7. I don't disagree with that at all. Please respond. Babylon controlled Alpha 7.

[27:16] Andrew, on point that this rewatch would have time problems. We're still receiving it. Based on trajectory, the fighter seems to be returning to base. Quite. Some things one must do alone. I got these great seatbelts. I'm gonna be fine. I'm even ready to proceed. I have three buttons to control my entire ship.

[27:37] The Minbari just called that one button. You know, I can... Looking at that ship, though, I can see a little bit of a white star. Coming into scanner range. Like, I can see that being a prelude to a white star. Alpha-7, you're clear to dock. Proceed to main bay. Michael, I want that ship examined with a fine-tooth comb. Something fatal here. We ain't found! See how many Tuvok references we can get in this thing.

[28:05] Oh, yeah, totally. Like, in the color and stuff, a little bit of the shape. Yeah, definitely has that precursor feel to it. B-4. How? How? What did he use to scratch into that metal? Thumbnail. B4. This is another case of Star Trek ripping off Babylon 5. Absolutely in it. This is clear cut. Clear as day. Babylon 4 disappeared. Also, every time Star Trek references Tachyana missions, total ripoff.

[28:37] We don't often get Corwin and that girl together in C&C. That's pretty exciting. The distress call identifies itself as... Well, you know, you got budget reasons. It's Babylon 4. We're on our way. The station just doesn't disappear and reappear four years later like some kind of flying Dutchman. Only one way to find out. Let's see it. The only reason I know about the flying Dutchman is because of Pirates of the Caribbean. I know about it because of SpongeBob. Here it is. Oh, I love that it's in there. we don't know for sure what's waiting for us out there that makes me so happy all we do know is that we've already had one man killed so i i want to point out just an interesting thing sinclair walking here through here giving the the star fury pilots the whole like you know this could be a one-way trip blah blah blah yeah knowing that 12 years before this the president was giving the same speech before the battle of the line calling for people to like, and he answered that call. It kind of makes me look at this moments like this a little bit differently, knowing what brought him to this. Like, that's what brought him to this point of somebody doing this. I wonder if this lady here is going to be the next, she could be the next Sinclair. While investigating sector 14. Two hours, three minutes.

[30:01] This is the part I hate most, the waiting. Mind if I ask you a question? You're getting ready to go to work you pull on your pants you fasten and then zip zip and then fasten what kind of question is that well look we got two hours to kill forget it it's just a question it's okay um just watch my console don't worry about it knowing what we know of them this is that feels a little honest yeah uh-huh fasten then zip you fasten zip fz bros how much longer, so i when we watched this the first time uh-huh we we asked ourselves the sock question is it sock shoe or sock sock shoe shoe oh and uh i forget what you said i didn't what are you though are you a sock sock shoe shoe i i that's what i said i was but almost immediately after we recorded the episode i actually paid attention i am a sock shoe sock shoe guy i will sock shoe tie sock shoe tie interesting it's kind of weird summoned i come we stand between the dark and the light think about how long she's not been there uh-huh if they're literally operating how many meetings she's missed like does she phone in and vote or something right calling is to serve not to leave my work on babylon 5 is concluded leading is serving if you do it right she will attend to itself we will pray for guidance and select another.

[31:26] Music.

[31:32] Persisted the docking bay the fins.

[31:44] Yeah you know this all this green and everything thinking about what james was saying about it, it's very reminiscent of a board cube to me it is yes you sure i'll cover you i mean at this point in sci-fi we've been trained that green is evil yeah green it's certainly black like those are your typical evil colors red red yeah although it makes it weird because green was uh luke skywalker's original lightsaber or was it blue and his original was blue and then he what he made the screen yeah yeah oh uh dylan in the chat shared that the dude yelled at sinclair i know who you are interesting which makes sense with babylon 4 being a base of operations although it might not have been yet but it was back yeah but i mean sinclair was still in the military like he still could have known who he was yeah possible he wasn't like a big shot guy it's not there we have to hurry we have to then points out man it's so cool that they were able to get all of these guys back for World Without End two seasons later. Yeah, they're great. I also imagine they have pretty open schedules. So this is supposed to be Earth Force invading Babylon 5. I think that's what we're being led to believe. Right, and like it's a flash forward two years and everything.

[33:12] He has no more bruce willis moment than this right exactly like this this cements very doyle as bruce willis.

[33:25] Yeah andrew says he thought that was the shadows invading battle on 5 i did too looking back on it forward well i think like uh nia says that's what we saw in the road home become unstuck in time commander that's why we have to get out of here quickly anything else unusual happen before the station uh jinxo left this here we go we don't know how he got aboard where he came from or what race he is i've never seen an alien like him they told zathras biggest of all babylon stations we need needing we take you let zathras go he says babylon 4 is the biggest of the stations. Zathras tells maybe we don't break Zathras's scrawny little neck. He doesn't look so scrawny. No. No one listened to poor Zathras, no. Just the dirt. Great war. Beast of burden. Great hope of peace. Last nest. Place to gather, to fight, to organize. Mathematics, not Zathras skill. Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that. The man is like an engineering genius. Right? Yeah. Like, it's the simple map the conversions i like how the two guards were just standing there and watched him like get up exactly pause and then go, hey hi sheridan hi sheridan on screen.

[34:49] I wonder if Bruce Boxleitner got the credit. I mean, even though he was under a hood and everything. It is the one. This is where we were pretty sure it was him. It was Sinclair. It was inside? Yeah. All of this points to it being Sinclair. Because he does a little zap and shoot him back thingy, right? Whenever your matter touches the matter and a thing. Why you? Why not another? It is my calling. The calling. No ruling of this council can override that. Delenn. Knowing what we know about minbari that phrase right there means everything right means everything you're right we would not have caught that though right like and we would never we wouldn't we wouldn't pick up on that where she says the calling of my heart well honestly and i think in my past jeff's defense not knowing what we know about minbari culture that line is literally her being like whatever i want is more important than what all you all want which it is right because but that's their culture yeah we didn't know that yet it was just like oh my god.

[35:48] More so than what we have the capacity to do right now jeff the whole monologue she just delivered we could do an entire podcast episode on by itself yes talking about humanity and and what that means like that's that's that deserves a much deeper dive than what you and i can give during a reaction piece here yeah i think it's a thing to capture and then there are these moments throughout the rest of the series and it's usually out of the mouth of delana jacar but where they define humanity in a way like this and i think whoops i think we capture all of that and do a little dive in because I was listening to that and I'm like, that's great. It's a beautiful. A description and reflection of our state of being and our potential there. The message is we don't know how good we are or how noble we are. I mean, it's hope that we can be better in the future. It's hope.

[36:35] That's what it is. It's giving us hope. Like, we can do this. You have to believe this about ourselves and understand this is who you are. I mean, her line, they forget that they've come through this place through two million years of struggle and evolution or something like that. And that they are worthy. like we've but that's that's i mean you forget where you come from that's our biggest weakness is that we forget what we've been through to get to this i mean you know as a society i think we see that like you forget what we've been through to get to where we are and now we're going to do things that throw it away like and i'm not just speaking of current situations like that's that's throughout history throughout time absolutely we forget who we are we forget where we came from And then we wind up losing it. Like it's a thing I've learned in, in, in my years as a, as a, as a transformational leader or a wartime CEO, it's a title I like to use for myself, but you have to look back. You have to look back and acknowledge how far you've come.

[37:34] Otherwise, if you just live and you also have to just live in the now, right? Like as for a leader, you have to exist in the past, the present and the future all at the same time to remind people of where they've been and where they've come from and then take them to where they're going but if you don't look back yeah then the present state always sucks i do have something else out of this but i do want to save it for our post episode chat so we'll circle back around to this if you're listening stick around because we're going to get back to that because there's something else i really want to dig out of this okay uh that is that i'm excited to talk about so if you reject.

[38:07] This decision so that we may reflect on our choices so they're calling her home because they want her to lead them then we shall put it to a vote let's have this conversation okay delin as far as we understand newest member of the great council young whippersnapper personally installed by duke 12 years ago or whatever we we assume nobody else has committed it's possible but still that's something else they want her to be the one to and they explained why and i think it's a big deal you've seen the galaxy you've interacted with other races and species you are more galaxy galaxy lee than any of us and i think knowing what we know of the minbari huge statement i was gonna say that's maybe the most humble thing we've ever heard of minbari say ever you know i would imagine them especially in this time of humanity rising and just the rising you know, tensions between the Centauri and Narn. Like, this isn't a good time. I could see them being like, no, we need to bring in, you know, one of our old guard who's just like, nope, we're going to close in. We're Minbari first platform, which would mirror the Earth first stuff happening for humans. But no, they went the other direction. We want somebody who's been out there, who's seen the world.

[39:19] The galaxy, who understands what's out there. So with that, Delenn following her heart, the calling of her heart is she responsible for the minbari civil war discuss so she turns down leadership in this moment what i know of delin is like she was talking to who i believe is ref then um out there and saying uh you know i'll never leave that room i'm gonna be stuck on this ship forever no if she's the leader if she's ducat she's gonna find a way to be like you know what we're gonna go back to minbar and we're gonna see our people again you know or she's gonna find a way to get back in touch I think that with her them naming her leader because of her worldliness she would have led and actually brought the Minbari together instead between this and her later action of dissolving the council all together she rips apart their.

[40:12] Their desire right now to be progressive and look towards uh you know social evolution within within the galactic stage and then later she destroys the only bit of leadership they have or and hear me out because we saw the gray council vote against ducat ducat was not pleased but the great council could still kind of or they want her back so they can control her and they put her in this really nominal position she'll do whatever and they'll struggle to vote however they want to but they're getting her off the front lines out there. They're going to put her in a room and control her. I can see that. That's a good possibility.

[40:48] I think it really comes down to how genuine do we think their great counsel is being here? And I got to be honest. I think I kind of fall on the side of they're just trying to get her to shut up and get off the front stage. I think especially because the dude who was like, you're going to lead us for all these great reasons. He was the one that was living in her closet and babysitting her. Little fat dude over there. uh-huh oh yeah so yeah maybe i could definitely see that yeah yeah now i want to pay attention here when they vote uh-huh i'm going to assume it's three votes against honoring her which would be the warrior cast which would fully support your theory it'd be four there's only three orders point no but you'd need four to hang the because it because it's going to be eight of them counting eight of them voting right unless deline's getting to vote for herself which she should have turned off her own light then you know yeah uh but uh or the the the warrior cast leaves their lights on yeah i'm pretty because because she wins they say yeah she's saying no i don't want to do this yeah and so they go okay well we'll withdraw our thing and that's they're going right along with what she says the warrior cast is gonna no you gotta lead us anyway that's what i'm saying to support your your theory they're like no you have to stay we got a leash right here all right let's see what happens who among us will honor delin's request oh.

[42:10] I can't tell who's who, to be honest with you. Four went down, but Fat Dude was one of them. This council has spoken. That's interesting. We withdraw our... Oh, they were keeping their lights on to honor her request. Yeah. So if the lights went off, that means, no, you got to stay. Yeah. So that we may reflect on our choice. I don't know if Closet Dude is Warrior Cast or what, but Four... I like how they're still using this orange plastic fencing that I had around my middle school baseball field. So this is it. You're just going to leave. So this is it. Please tell me. I don't understand you, Michael. Alive or dead, he's the only proof. I'm going with us. Take it. It's a very Earth Force attitude. Right? I think that's something I've really picked up on when we watched it in the beginning and a lot of this stuff. Like, Earth Force really are the baddies. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:10] You can tell someone just chuck that thing. You can see it. You can see him doing it. But it's still on the same mission. Maximum burn.

[43:27] I like it. All right. In a ship like that. So, all right, Brent, we just watched most of Babylon Squared for the second time And I acknowledge that the last three minutes are missing, and our buddy from Council Chambers, Ben, sent us a full-on recording, but because of some technical reasons, we weren't able to use that. So really quick, what we missed was, again, I'm assuming it's Refn, but another one of the great council that we got to hear a lot from on this one, walked out with Delenn and wished her well. And handed her the tri-luminary. She was very honored by getting handed that. And when she's like, oh my gosh, you can't do this. He says, it's cool. We got two more. It'll be a while until they notice it's gone. So there's three tri-luminaries. Now, what's interesting in that moment was they handed it over and they touched it. Prison window touched the thing and it didn't light up. But I'm pretty sure it's because it was in a case or a container. Was it? No, or did we just retcon some stuff? We might a little bit. But he gave us a little bit of like, hey, some stuff's about to go down. He says, there are signs and portents of things to come. Dun, dun, dun. He said the thing. And then there's a little exchange between Ivanova and Sinclair that was all the awesome Ivanova and Sinclair stuff that you could imagine.

[44:52] Thank you, Ben, for sending that over. Sorry we couldn't use that particular version. Really wanted to, really tried tech stuff. it happens but uh what what do you got out of this one that we didn't discuss during the during the react itself so first of all let me just decompress for a moment because it's such a great flargan episode it's so good top to bottom all the way around um when we first set out to do the rewatch jeff to do babylon 5 for the second time to see the things that we missed and to pick up on the things this episode delivers in every way totally not just to rewatch a good episode but there were things we were pulling out. We're like, Oh, the call of my heart thing with, we wouldn't have noticed that later or, Oh, who's in the suit or not in the suit or, Hey, look at what's going on over here or look at what's happening over there. Or what are the, what is this conversation they're having over there? Like all of those things that we just would have not understood the first time around. And we are able to understand and experience this episode. we were able to watch this episode through the lens of war without end yeah which we weren't able to do the first time around for all these reasons completed the cycle yeah exactly exactly so um and even if you take those three and you put them together if we would have done those three together let's say the first time around we still would have watched this one first exactly, It's almost like this one should be a prequel, which prequels are meant to be watched second.

[46:20] A prequel is still a sequel. It just takes place beforehand, which means you're still supposed to watch it second. So there's a lot in this that I just don't think you, it, there is an appreciation for this episode that goes exponentially higher because of the war without end and knowing where all of that kind of stuff goes. Now, that being said, I don't remember what we, and Jeff, you might know this.

[46:42] You listen to the show. i probably could look it up in my notes i don't.

[46:44] Remember what we said on a message level about this show the first time around so i gave this one two and a half deltas you gave it half a delta we both basically said this was great tv yeah i would up that agree i would up that after watching this another time based solely on the monologue of delin there's a few other things with it when we talk about a little bit of marriage of society specifically when we talk about hope that things can be better in the future hope that we that humanity can be better in the future to lynn just exposits all of that out of her aura you know and we we we dissected some of it during the episode but i did want to save some for this part right here i loved this piece and it really struck me about a contrast piece to it okay she said talking to humans they are ruled by their passions and their fears and that is their strength they do not seek conformity or surrender and out of their differences they find symmetry right they are.

[47:46] Ruled by their passions and their fears and that is their strength okay let me put this in terms that might be a little more relatable jeffrey aiken okay they are ruled by their emotions and that is their strength and i I think if there's one thing that you and I for all of our years of podcasting about Star Trek and when you examine the Vulcan philosophy and it's the idea of being so logical about stuff is appealing and it's it's really interesting.

[48:14] You know, I can just be cold, logical about stuff. And it has a place.

[48:18] It has a place. But when we really drill down on that, it's not really what we want. And it's not the design. And it leaves you very, very limited.

[48:29] It is through embracing your emotions, which includes your fears, which includes your passions, that you are able to actually push yourself forward and push society forward and push humanity forward. But I love that. They're ruled by their passions and their fears, and that is their strength. Not this cold, we never lie, and we always do this, and we do that, and we're just going to be super chill the whole time. It is such an anti-Vulcan philosophy. And frankly, Jeff, I love it. Yeah. Especially because the Vulcans are actually so much more emotional than humans. They just worked through generations and generations to suppress it because it is scary. Because it could be perceived as volatile and chaotic and it's scary. But I think that's a thing that really separates humans from other mammals and other animals. And I'm a believer that I've had mammals, dogs and stuff in my life, 100% they have emotions. They feel and it's great. But I think we have the ability to not only feel but to –.

[49:40] Name what that feeling is, act based on it or not, you know, based on what we choose. But what's so powerful about it, we talked about it a little bit last week, right? The principle of, you know, an equal and opposite, you know, force sort of a thing in terms of the laws of motion, but the laws of emotion are so much more in depth. And, you know, I think that the other thing I've learned in my journey, and we've talked about on other episodes in different capacities and stuff, but the ability to notice the emotion that exists for you, to name it, to sit in it and allow it to happen, that's how we grow. When we feel an emotion and we hide it, suppress it, cold logic it.

[50:25] Whatever, that's where we lash out at other people. It's a real question of abundance versus scarcity, right? If I can And sit in an emotion and allow it to pass, like the litany of fear in Dune, right? I'll allow it to pass through me, and I will be all that remain. Makes you stronger when that happens. And that directs yourself to yourself and others in a positive way. But when you hold it back, you got all this, and so we lash out at other people, and it just hurts. That's when we hurt. Becky has a great comment in our council chambers. I saw this one. I'm glad you brought it in. says, might I suggest that this is what made Dillon human-ish even before she was half human? Becky, I might even push back on that and go something that we know about her. She already was, maybe not half human, but she was a percent human because she was a child of Valen.

[51:14] And maybe that's where this comes from. It makes you wonder, was Dukat a child of Valen? And that's why he was so cool, man. But it makes you think about, not to make it about Star Trek, but to go back to it, spock was half human and he was the one who started moving things in a direction that would have brought the vulcans and the romulans potentially back together yeah because you bring in that emotion piece well and he particularly had to go with the d there's my human and then there's my vulcan and there's my human the vulcan said he had to basically eliminate the humanity part and i think it was i mean it literally took him dying and coming back to life before you realized actually those two parts are integrated it is it's an integrated side of you it's not all one or all the other you know so but jeff you know what.

[52:02] This is not a star trek podcast it's not it's not this is about minbari this is about delin and this is about the one it's after us and minbari delin does that we get to see the physical manifestation of them being one human and bar it's not that oh i'm half one half the other but i look like one and sometimes act like the other no i am both yeah yeah that was that was the big the big thing i got out of just sheer enjoyment of watching it and then putting all the pieces together but it's in terms of of pulling a message out of it certainly one it seems like we missed it the first time around and and you and i said in the show and i'll just repeat it here that entire monologue could be its own podcast topic of really diving in and it probably deserves to be because at jms you're watching this man such a beautiful piece of writing that that whole deal man talk about hope that we that humanity can be better in the future Well, he does such a great job as the series continues, putting words into the mouths of Delenn and Jakar again specifically that just describe humanity in such beautiful, beautiful ways. You know, one thing I want to hit on before we get to the next cool part is when I watched this the first time, I felt that Delenn choosing to leave the council and stuff was very ego-driven and selfish. And I see it differently on the second view, knowing more. Welcome to the rest of us, Jeff. Hey, you know. Hey, listen, your journey back to normalcy begins with a single step, my friend. And here's step one.

[53:31] Acknowledging that Dylan wasn't to be. In fact, in Minbari culture, she was being selfless. Ooh. Right. Hey, I can literally have like the most coveted honored position in our society. I'm going to do the higher calling and answer the calling of the thing that's of my heart. And I'm going to serve. Although I will say, again, I said it in there. I'm not, I'm here to serve, not lead. If you're a good leader, you are a servant. So, well, you, you, you serve, you serve by leading leading. I mean, you, that is your service. That is the service is leading because you're moving the people from point A to point B. You're moving them from here to there. So, so Brent, you said that this was an enjoyable episode. It was great. It was fun. It was well-written. But now, sir, you need to put pen to paper and codify that because we are creating the definitive. You're going to make me do this, aren't you? I am going to make you do this. Do you know how hard this one's going to be? I have a really good idea. And I'm going to set you up for it. I want to make it as easy as I possibly can. Okay. There's the strike zone right through the middle. Okay. As we develop the definitive, unarguable ranking of Babylon 5, the first season, you get to do that you get to rank this bad boy so i'm going to uh well our current top episode is signs and portents i don't think i need to list any others brent so where does this one go well.

[54:54] You're definitely in the right space of it jeff okay and i mean you know signs importance is such a good episode it is there's a lot on the line on how you answer this question by the way there is but you know i think this is where i just come back to the old litmus test of which episode would don't want to watch again first jeff this is our new number one okay or our old number one or whatever it is this is our number one there's no question no question i said before we started it was going to be the number one and you know what i had it open my hand was open towards it but my god it's just this is the best episode yeah like of this season this was number one in our first ranking so far number one in this one neither of the next two episodes are gonna they're just This one's going to stay here. We'll see.

[55:42] It just, Dylan says it is the one. It is the one. Yes, that's correct. It is the one that is. We'll see if it is also the one that will be because Brent, that wraps up Babylon Squared. Next week, we're watching what could potentially usurp it as the number one, an episode called The Quality of Mercy. Yeah. Do you remember what you thought this episode is going to be about? I do, but there's something in our council chambers that I've seen pop up a couple times, And I think it bears just mentioning while we're here before, before we fully move on from Evalon five, uh, Ivanova. Oh yeah. Yeah. In the missing segment has this line next time I'm going in Garibaldi staying here. And that's what happened. And that's what actually happens. And that's really cool knowing that that's, that's, uh, come in there. So that being said, uh, quality mercy, my prediction was basically, this was going to be a riff on, on balance of terror, right? Like that's, that's what this is. And I believe, Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong. The first time we watched this, the final episode of season one of Star Trek Strange New Worlds came out. Right around this time. Is this one a quality mercy or the quality of mercy? This is the quality of mercy. Okay. The Strange New Worlds episode was a quality of mercy. And that was a kind of side shot of Balance of Terror.

[57:06] And so I was kind of going this is going to be a submarine it's going to be the same I think that's what was going on when we first recorded this the first time around, And so I was making that reference. How about you? What was your prediction? Dude, I was banging a drum that was already well-worn at this point. Quality of Mercy is going to be about the great egg.

[57:25] I figured Dr. Franklin was going to get in trouble finally for this, and he would learn the quality. Of course, we were both wrong, and we'll find out exactly what that's all about next week right here when we watch it and react to it right here with all of you. Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for checking us out. If you haven't already, please make sure that you subscribe. Like comment, click the stuff, do the stuff is awesome. When you do those things, the one thing you can do though, that truly makes a big difference for us and means the world to us is share this show with somebody who hasn't heard it or seen it yet. That would be fantastic. So with that, we're going to wrap up Babylon squared and we'll see you. Yes, Brent, what is up? No, no, not the one, not the one. All right. So, uh, so we're doing, uh, uh, what do you mean? not the one not not not the one not the one so okay what does it take to be the one then well you you could have been the one or the other the one or the other the one but you are not the one are you telling me there's three the ones no no there are four lights we're crying out loud.

[58:33] Music. It was a little mid, it was a little mid, but it was okay. It's good, it's good. I just love how your Zathra so quickly turns into Triumph the Insult. I'm like, yeah.

[58:36] I mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something