Aug. 1, 2022


You had better be sitting down for this one.

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

It's Science vs. Faith. Or is it Science AS Faith? Either way, this one is DARK and leaves Jeff and Brent asking a lot of existential questions.

Babylon 5 For the Fist Time podcast logo with the Patreon logo on top of it


Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time.

Jeff: We're two veteran star Trek, podcasters watching Babylon five for you. Got it. The first time we search for star Trek, like messages meanings in the series, and we ultimately decide if we should have watched this sooner.

Brent: Absolutely. And Jeff, while this is not a podcast about star Trek, it's gonna happen. That's who we are. We're not apologizing for it, but we are gonna have some fun with it. We have a game, we have a rule of three. We only get three Trek references each. I think we obliterated that last week, Jeff. Um, but we are going to have that as a game.

You only get three Trek references and every time you use one, you're gonna hear, and that means you used one. Uh, so Jeff, choose your spots carefully and, and I'm just, I'm gonna mark it starting right now. Until we get to the end where we actually do the Trek comparison. It starts right now.

Jeff: All right. It's I'm not gonna lie. There's a lot in this one that I could, I could go too easy. One thing I love is we have our references that we're gonna make, but you have references that you make as well. The interactions with you are what keep Brent and I coming back. We, well, honestly, your interactions and what's becoming a show.

I really . I really, I really like week after week, I'm wanting to come back to this, but we've got a couple things we wanna share with you that you've shared with

Brent: They're you know, Jeff, the thing is they're making references in those comments that you and I don't understand yet.

Jeff: flying right over our heads. Like completely. They could have given everything away. And I just be like, yeah, yeah, totally. Gar of all these pretty weird. Yeah. Agreed. What, whatever. I don't

Brent: Woo

Jeff: Well, Brent, five star review on apple

Brent: woot. You

Jeff: Yeah, this one's from shock scream at shock scream on Twitter as well.

And shock scream says in their five star review on apple podcasts, which you can take a second and pop over there and do as well says, Jeff and Brent bring their love of star Trek to the world of Babylon five, as they enjoy the beloved show for the very first time. It's a great listen. As they try to tease the star Trek out of the show and try to pick up on plot threads that will carry through highly recommend.

Brent: know, Jeff, I think we need to change our opening spiel to just pull what shock screen just said.

Jeff: right.

Brent: tease the star Trek out of it and try to pick up on threats. I really like the wording of that. That's that's really good. Thank you. Shock stream. That is fan fantastic. I appreciate that.

Jeff: Super good. Another one from Twitter. We're at Babylon first, by the way, on Twitter, it'd be great for you to follow us also when you're on there. No spoilers. Please slightly fixated on Twitter, says my wife and I have been fans of B five for 20 plus years. And love how even your dislikes with the show are framed in a positive way.

We also love giggling over what you've predicted rightly or wrongly.

Brent: that's why we do the predictions. , it's purely for your enjoyment folks, cuz you know what Jeff and I don't have a clue.

Jeff: Oh. In in fact, we make predictions at the end of every episode, based on the title of the next episode, guessing what it's gonna be today. We're gonna talk about believers. Brent, do you remember what you thought believers was gonna be about?

Brent: It's been a full week man,

Jeff: I know.

Brent: and I've seen this episode a couple of times now, what did I, I think I said, I need to write this down. I think I said something to the effect of this had to do with the religion. I think,

Jeff: I think you said again, soul hunter too, is what you were

Brent: oh, that's right. That's yeah. That's what I said. I said, this is soul hunter too. No, not at all. Uh, but it is, it is definitely very steeped in, in religion.

Jeff: it is. So I think this is probably the closest both of us have come. You brought up religion. I thought it was gonna be cultists coming on board. We're both off, but definitely, definitely, um, faith and religion based

Brent: Now I'll tell, I'll tell you where we came. The closest though was when we predicted mind war, cuz we both went Cy core and that's when we got check off and yes, absolutely.

Jeff: frankly, if that was anything else, like, then it's just, they're just rolling, like episode title dice at that point. It's like, uh, mind and war. Yeah. We'll we'll, we'll go with that. Well in today's episode, this is, uh, episode 10 of the first season of Babylon five. We're watching believers for those of you that it might have been, you know, 30, some odd years since you've seen it, or those who are watching along with us rent.

Why don't you remind everyone what this episode is

Brent: Well, first of all, Jeff, this episode was written by David Gerald.

Jeff: about? A one and the only

Brent: the guy who wrote the absolutely hilarious episode, the trouble with triples. And this is sure to be a feel good, fun episode.

Jeff: absolutely. I mean, not only that he came back with the animated series triples episode, this guy's nothing but giggles and

Brent: Right. Well, let's get into it. It's just your ordinary average day on Babylon five. Everyone's going about their regular business and down in the med lab, doctors, Franklin and Hernandez are with a family. Who's got a sick kid, but no worries, whatever it is, that's ailing him. It's really common. And it's really easy to treat.

It's just gonna take a very simple, very minor surgery. He's gonna bounce back super quick. He's gonna grow up to be healthy and strong, and probably he is gonna have a really cool scar at a boot. But his parents aren't so keen on the idea of surgery. In fact, they absolutely forbid it. You see, according to their religion, cutting him open will cause the boy to lose his spirit from the great egg.

And it's better to just have him prepare himself for his fate than to lose his spirit. Meanwhile, let's check in on our blo. Some space pirates are out there, troubling the ASM of a Starr and Ivanova is itching to get out of the house for a while. So she pulls us in Claire and heads out in a star fury to go get the ASM of and escort her home.

When she gets there, she finds the ASM of is. And when she gets there, she finds the ASO of, and only one single space pirate in the area against all common sense and orders. Ivanova orders, her wing men to escort the ASO of out of the territory while she goes after the black Pearl, a eventually she catches up and takes 'em out.

But in doing so she runs head first into a whole Armada of space pirates. Well, short, short story later, she gets away, but not without taking some damage. And the ASM off makes it safely back to Babylon five to let its people off. Okay. All of that's outta the way. Let's get back to the, a plot. Dr. Franklin is trying to get in the good graces of the parents.

He says, Hey, listen, there's a really noninvasive treatment that we can do. The parents agree, but Dr. Hernandez slaps Franklin upside the head and thinks he's just put and thinks he's just pushing a bunch of lies on top of the parents. Franklin says, listen, chill out. It's gonna gimme time to get the parents on my side.

So they'll let me do the surgery like duh Hernandez, but that doesn't stop the two from betting on a steak dinner, which is apparently a very rare thing on babble on five. And Dr. Franklin says, he's gonna find a way to save this boy. Now, remember that noninvasive stuff that he was promising would give them more time. Yeah, it didn't work. And the kid Sean is getting worse. Franklin pleads with the parents to reconsider the surgery, but they stand their ground to do so would be a fate worse than death.

So Franklin decides to get some clear involved to override them. Cuz I guess he can do that. And it kind of backfires though, since they have no ambassador on the station, that means Sinclair has to be their representative and take up their cause. And he's clearly torn about the decision, but he eventually goes to the boy himself and asks him what he wants.

Sean says he doesn't want to die, but he'd rather die than lose his soul. So let him go, which is just poppycock all according to, to Franklin. Now the parents Sinclair and the boy have all said no to this operation, but Franklin does it anyway. And you're never gonna guess what. The surgery works. And Sean himself is well on the way to being healed.

He's bright eyed bushy-tailed. And guess what? He doesn't feel any different. His soul hasn't left his body. He feels exactly the same, but his parents freak out, completely abandoned him, leaving him, crying on the floor while they call him a cursed demon child spawn Satan, which let's face it. What parent hasn't ever said that about their children.

Just me. Uh, okay. Well, anyway, once the parents calm down, they come get him, come get their walking zombie shell of what used to be their son. And they take him to full on kill him and put him where he belongs. Franklin breaks down in tears. Sinclair comes to put the smack down on Franklin, but JMS didn't wanna recast the role of the doctor again.

So they're gonna let him stay for next episode, but he is gonna get a very senior serious finger wagging as we head out to the credits.

Jeff: Yeah. Thanks David. Gerald for that, that

Brent: That was man, that those two compare don't they

Jeff: so fun. Yeah, well, you know, David Gerald, we get for free, but I'm gonna cost. I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend one of mine right away. The mom in this was played by Trisha O'Neil Trisha O'Neil captain, Rachel Garrett from yesterday's enterprise.

Brent: really?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Wow. That is a deep pull, but wow. Okay.

Jeff: I was, I was watching her and the husband and I'm like, there's there.

She was amazing. Like I just got to say she was amazing and I'm like, there's no way. She's nobody. And so I, I went and looked and I'm like, oh my God, it's captain Garrett.

Brent: Wow.

Jeff: It's pretty cool. But this, this episode hit me hard. Um, really hard. It was filthy. It was ugly. I mean, it was gross and sick, but in all the right ways, you know, like I think that if I had watched this, when it first aired and I was like, I don't know.

I think it was 17, maybe 19 I somewhere masks fuzzy. When you were a teenager, I, I probably wouldn't have cared for this very much. I'd have been like, oh, it's just some, you know, it's the Christian faith thing versus the court where they don't do medicine, whatever, blah, blah, blah, as a parent, as a parent and someone who has lost people really close to me.

And frankly, and some people may not, some people may think this is ridiculous, but like I had to put one of my dogs down that I loved with all of my heart and in the scene where they're like cradling Sean, and they're accepting, like we're gonna leave you to die. And. Captain Garrett is just, I mean, just the way that she's crying, but keeping her cool.

That was, that was me when I had to sign the piece of purple paper that let them, let them put my dog down. And I, yeah, that this, this, this, this really hit hard for me.

Brent: I have to say since becoming a parent myself, 10 years ago, I watch movies. I watch television. I understand everything different. Like it it's, I think that's right. I think it's natural. I think that's just how it works. Watching this episode. Not having kids, I just don't imagine could hit anywhere near the same as it does having kids, you know, and there, and I think there's PE there can be people all along the spectrum of those two things, depending on whatever their.

Personal situation is, um, I found this episode,

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: poignant, a, a cannon shot to the heart relevant to today. Incredibly well acted. I mean, you talk about the mom, but I also think about the, the da, like when they got to that scene where they completely rejected their shell of a sun. I mean, the, the, it was visceral visceral, overall. is not an episode I want to come back and watch very often. But as of right now, this is an episode that I'm gonna have a lot of respect for, you know what I mean? But I'm not gonna come watch. This is not a feel good episode. This is not trouble with triples at. this is, this is, uh, it, it's just, it's a hard hitting episode. Um,

Jeff: and it's so real, right? It's it's not, it's not clean cut or clear. It's not Dr. Franklin is right, because he's the scientist and they're wrong because they have some weird what we would, what would they call false religion in, in sin? You know, Sinclair's point, what, what makes a false religion?

This was presented in a way. And I think it was Len who called this out when, when they were, the parents were going around to all the ambassadors, trying to stop Sinclair from approving Franklin's request. But Dylan was like, they said, we're just trying to help our son. And she's like, yeah, that's exactly what Dr.

Franklin believes he is doing. Who's right. We don't know. There's no way to know. And, oh,

Brent: right.

Jeff: I, I grew up. I grew up in a sect of Catholicism. That was weird, um, long story for another day, another time, but it was, it was rooted in a lot of just not great, great stuff, border borderline cult, I would say. And, and, and I really understood where the parents were coming from.

Right. I mean, we believed so in, in, and I, we believed that a woman's role was solely to have children and that if you died having children, you were a martyr and you had assured your spot in heaven. So I have family that have 13, 14, 15 kids, cuz they just never stopped and they believed that was their, their duty.

And so when they're like, yeah, he for him to die, it's a great honor, cuz he'll die with his spirit.

Brent: Mm-hmm

Jeff: I think if you haven't been in that kind of weird religious. Paradigm before you just think, you just think those people are like, you you're nuts. Like what do you, but when you've been there, I'm like, I get you.

I know what you're thinking. And, oh, it's just so complex and so complicated. It's I don't know. I, I appreciated that, that it wasn't so clear. Cut. There. Wasn't a right answer in this.

Brent: Yeah. So I mean, you talking about that just makes this comment all the more correct to me, I got major, major two Vics vibes from this

Jeff: Hmm. Mm.

Brent: And mostly out of that, that realm of there is no right answer or both answers are right.

Jeff: Yeah. Or both answers are

Brent: both answers are wrong. Yeah.

Jeff: they're the only

Brent: now, honestly, intu, Vics.

I actually, I found that one actually a lot more easier because I think Jane way murdered a person.

Jeff: mm-hmm

Brent: that's that's how that happened. If you guys haven't seen the episode two VIX, go watch it. Another episode. That is fantastic. It does not feel good. And you are not gonna wanna watch it that often, but you wanna start a debate in the star Trek fandom, just bring it up and you're gonna start that debate.

I wonder, Ooh, Jeff, is this a debate in the Babylon five fandom of who was right?

Jeff: I don't know. And I, so my first thought was that's our tweet, that's our tweet to send up, but then it's gonna pull in because again, right. That things aren't wasted either, either the religion is gonna pay off in a future piece, this race, something, something. And if we pose that question, we're gonna get exposed to stuff.

But I, in the comments, right.

Brent: Yes

Jeff: know on Twitter at Babylon first. Yeah.

Brent: that easy. Yes or no. That's all we want to know. Is this a debate in the Babylon five fandom of who was right Franklin or the parents?

Jeff: Yeah. That's, that'd be fascinating to me now. I'm not a doctor. Uh, Brent, you have a, you're a lot closer to that, uh, industry and, and that, that, that whole thing than I am. So I, I have a question about Franklin in this, cuz he, he took a journey right on here where he kind of started. He has historically been the whole like, oh soul hunter.

Yeah. So that's a lot of nonsense. And then when they're like, Hey, don't tell us what's in the great stream. He's like, like this facial features were great. His expression. He's like, whatever, Hey kid, you're gonna be fine. Like this is good. So he's got a history of kind of downplaying faith in religion, but he was also kind of being reasonable doctor in a way of like, Hey, I gotta give him something.

I gotta do this. You can't question, question their, their religion all the way down to where he is. Like I will put my career on the line. I'll hand in my resignation. All these things will happen. It. It's pretty common in television to have that, that doctor be like, I don't care what the rules are. I don't care this.

There's a, there's a kid on my bed and I'm gonna save their life in your experience. Is that a, is that a doctor thing or is that a TV

Brent: that's a TV thing.

Jeff: Yeah, that's what I thought.

Brent: Um, for the most part, I'm not gonna say that there's not doctors out there that wouldn't behave like that. I'm sure there are, but for the most part, like doctors have a pretty clear cut protocol. And one of those protocols is you go with the wishes of the family. Now, if that kid a, had a ENT, uh, verbal, very clear, I don't want to die.

Doctor, please help me doctor, please save me. And the parents were saying nada, da. Then you'd have somebody who did whatever. They, they, they had a chance to Sinclair did the best thing I've ever seen Sinclair do in this whole series. Since we started watching, he went to the kid and said, what do you want?

And the kid said, I don't want to die, but it's better than losing my soul. Just let me go. He had made peace with it. Let it go.

Jeff: Yeah. I loved, I loved Sinclair. In this episode, he was handed, he was handed the, the tubic question, you know, I mean, there's not a right answer for him and I'm not buzzing myself. I'm just back. I'm piggybacking on Brents . But, but, but he did what you should do in a situation like that. He had a great conversation with Gar Baldy.

He reached out to the Senator and asked questions and I liked, I really liked that conversation with Gar Baldy there, where he is like, you reached out to the Senator and he is like, yep. For advice. I'm not gonna reach out to them every time I have to make a decision, I, you have to talk through these things, but he did, he went around, he talked to people, he got input.

He informed himself. And then like you said, he.

Brent: mm-hmm yeah,

Jeff: to the kid, he went to the person that was impacted. I thought, I thought he was great. This was, this was Sinclair's shining leadership moment to me. And then he made the right and difficult call.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: And I'll say that it was the right as a leader, right?

The impacts, everything else that totally debatable. But as a leader, in his role, he made the right.

Brent: This episode didn't do what you typically find in sci-fi with an episode like this, it's kinda what we saw in soul hunter. Honestly. where they go through this whole thing about, does he have a soul? Doesn't he, is he gonna lose his soul? If you cut him open, is something, is his spirit gonna leave him?

Right. And, but like, they're questioning you, you ha you always have the person who's of faith and then you have the person who's of science and no, you're just a body and you're just an organism. So let's just keep you alive. And then when you're dead, you're gone. And then this person's like, no, no, you're actually so much more than that.

And when you get to the end of it, it usually in science fiction usually kind of comes out on the side of the, the science of like, you're just a shell, but there's something that usually happens that makes you go, oh, maybe it is this. Maybe, maybe it could be really this soul. I don't know. Maybe something happened.

Right. We we've seen that in tons of, of sci-fi shows. Uh, not just, not just one over the other, like we've seen it out there. This episode didn't do that this episode in no way, shape or form. Gave and lent any kind of credence to the great egg, the stream, the feathers, the shell, it just, it, it was just a, do you believe this?

Or don't you right? Uh, which honestly is a bit more real world of where we live. Right. I mean, cuz that's all kind of a whole piece of faith. Like you can't really prove faith one way or the other, like you either believe it or you don't or

Jeff: Yeah. That's faith. It's what faith is. Yeah.

Brent: Um, so to go back to what Franklin was saying, kinda where you were saying of how he, like he kinda ran the gamut and through this episode he starts at the beginning and I like, I loved what he said. He said you can never insult a patient's belief. You work with them, you try to understand them and you give them a reason to be on your side.

And I was like, yeah, that's like, I would've saved that for the, for the star Trek message at the end of the show. Cause that's what it is. And then you get through it and you realize stop.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: All he is doing is manipulating them in that moment. He's not trying to get on their side. The problem is he's not trying to understand them. He wants them to understand him. He wants them to come shift to him. He does not want to take that journey going the other direction. And that's a problem.

Jeff: Yeah. and I think a big part of what made the end of this and Brent, I cannot overstate how shocking the end of this was you, you knew like. So in the scene, they, there there's a scene. I'm gonna talk about in more depth on my closing thoughts, but where they forgive Franklin and they have this robe, this is the robe of long journeys, and we're gonna, we're gonna head off and do something.

And he was like, oh, okay. You know, at that point you're like, oh

Brent: oh, they're gonna go get him

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: you, you know, immediately that that's what they're getting ready to go. Do you thought they would stop them and intervene and somebody would stop them before it happened and you were wrong, but that's what you thought was gonna happen, but you knew what was getting ready to come.

Jeff: yeah. You just like, this is not good. And then it starts unfolding and it immediately unfolds in a way where you're like, this is not good, but he had asked his, uh, the other doctor to do some research on the culture. What a novel awesome idea to do. Hey, let me learn about your culture a little bit. He literally does the surgery.

He's do you know, Hey, great. That gets decried as a demon. And then like five minutes later, she's like, Hey, finished my research. He's like, oh, cool. Let me, oh crap. And then if he had waited two hours before cutting into this kid, he could have had all, he could have seen everything there. He could have reached that understanding, but you're right.

He didn't care. He wanted her to do that research to check a box. Essentially. He was gonna get his way one way or another, but, oh man,

Brent: he was right. They were wrong period and no compromise. And he's really pushing that on to these people over here who are clearly saying no, Jeff, let me ask you a question. Does it change the equation? If the child is an infant or a toddler, not a 10, 11, 12 year old, who can clearly state their own wills will and desires in that moment.

Jeff: You know, I, I, I don't the process changes. I don't think the outcome does at that point. So Sinclair makes a comment to the parents when they're pleading with him to, to protect. And he says, I, I really wish you had an ambassador on board. This would make things a lot easier on me. I think if this were a toddler or an infant, someone who could not, or, or anyone, even a fully grown person who could not speak on their own behalf, speak for themselves at that point, the parents are the ambassador.

They are the final word

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: on this, and that makes it harder, totally harder. It changes the process. Sinclair, can't go to the source and ask, he's gotta make the call, gotta make the call on his own. But you know, he, the, the, the principle that he was kind of having overriding, making his decision to make his decision, I think.

Would've led him to the same place. Franklin was arguing that the precedent was set that because he had ordered the prior doctor to order to operate on cost, to save S's life. He was arguing that precedent said it was okay for him to operate on this kid, despite the culture or the wishes of the parents, Sinclair in a shining leadership moment owned That was that, that, that was a mistake to have made that call. I made, I mean, not that it was a mistake, but that it should said in a precedent, would've been a mistake. He made the line that was the camel's nose and the tent. We have to stop it before it walks all the way in.

Brent: yeah,

Jeff: And so I think with that, I think he would've ended up in the same place, but I think that he would've been carrying a much bigger weight.

The de the weight of decision would've weighed on him a lot more than it did if he couldn't have spoken with Sean.

Brent: but see that's I mean, and this is, this is the debate. Okay. So let's bring this into the real world. There's some cult out there in the middle of, I don't know, Oklahoma. Sorry, Oklahoma. I'm not trying to pick on you. It's literally the

Jeff: You're okay. You're

Brent: I was, I was trying not to see other states that tend to have you, uh, uh COLS in them anyway.

Um, so there's some cult out there and these, these people don't believe in medicine, they don't believe in, um, uh, doctors. They don't believe in X, Y, Z. I, I don't even know if it has to be a cult, honestly.

Jeff: not, we, we had a court case here in Portland, Oregon, and just maybe, I don't know, eight, 10 years ago of exactly this, where they refused any medical intervention. The kid died. They were charged with, I think with manslaughter. And if I, and I could be wrong, please fact check me or whatever, but I believe they were found not guilty.

Brent: Really. Cause that, cause I,

Jeff: the protection that religion is given in

Brent: huh. Interesting. Cuz that was gonna be my question. So what do you. You know, I, I mean, even taking that, like there's a, there's also a difference between the criminal side of it, which we try in a court versus the civil side or the moral side, the ethical side. Well, and honestly that side's a little more up for debate depending on where you come from.

Right. So it it's tough, man. And like, I, I think you look at this and, and you could apply this to things like vaccines. Should you give your kids vaccines? Should you, uh, what other kind of intervention should you do if you just, if you call it a religious thing and then how many people are just hiding behind religion to not, to just not do what they want to do?

Um, it's tough, man. It's a, this is a tough watch. And when they go and actually kill him, but in their, and to them in their culture, in their mind, he was already gone.

Jeff: exactly. They, they, yeah, just,

Brent: I think,

Jeff: and they were doing, they were doing a service. They were doing a service to him, to his memory and to society and their culture. They were heroes. Yeah,

Brent: I mean, I think of the K Clingons right? When a cling on warrior dies, the, the, the other Clingons gather around him, they do the, to the sky and then they get up and they walk away and they say, do whatever you want with the body. It's just a show. So, and so' no longer here. Ju like there is no burial.

There is no cremation. There is no service. There is because the body is nothing. Now. Thank you. That is what they considered their son to be as a zombie. Basically, if you saw zombie walking around, let's play that game. Jeff, if you had a zombie walking around, even if it wasn't trying to eat you, are you gonna just wallop it upside its head and, and take it out?

Jeff: hundred percent, but here's the thing I live. I, I live

Brent: Here zombies.

Jeff: Well, I live in Portland, Oregon, where I guarantee you, if it doesn't exist already, there's one getting formed. There's a zombie rights activist group already preparing for the apocalypse who would advocate for, you know, there used to be people too.

Brent: And I live in the south and I guarantee, well, there, there's not even guarantee you. I know for a fact, there are people who are preparing for the zombie, a cop apocalypse, and like, they're ready to go.

Jeff: yeah. Right. Nails through baseball bats and everything. Yeah. But no, it, it is. And it's hard and I, and, and it's not easy. And that's one, one of the things I, I was gonna say, I love about this episode, but I don't, I hate it, but I appreciate so much about it is they just left it there. And that scene was so shocking.

And the actor who portrays Franklin did, I mean, He just, he's just like, oh my God, like you could, you could feel, you could feel that. And he, and this is my, my hope, my plea for the serialization of what Babylon five is. This has to have been a pivotal moment that will forever, forever change. Dr. Franklin, you don't go through this and come out the same person.

Brent: right. I am, uh, I'm gonna make a prediction. I have a theory.

Jeff: Here we go.

Brent: big theory. You actually kind of stole it from me. You said it earlier. I think this thing with the great egg and the culture, I think this is gonna become important moving forward, or we're gonna come back to it. Something, this is such a well developed, uh, culture for the script and for the story to make this a one off thing, we are going to encounter this again, the

Jeff: You know what I just, what I just piece piece together here is. So there's the great egg, the, uh, the emergence from it. And then the, the spirit within you that if your body has punctured leaves, you know, another thing we saw not too long ago is spirits leaving the body was when the soul hunter actually captured those real for souls or essence or whatever.

Maybe this is our soul hunter tie in of some kind where,

Brent: soul hunters, soul hunters are from this planet. Oh, are they

Jeff: wow.

Brent: Are they, or like an offshoot of the planet?

Jeff: Right. Because they, they they've got the

Brent: Like the, like the, the rolins and the res

Jeff: mm-hmm

Brent: or the, you know, so

Jeff: I think that was

Brent: that's my three, right? Oh,

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. But it, but it's exactly that. And I think, yeah, so they. They were formed in, in this culture because they found out we were, they were doing surgeries or whatever, and losing the spirits and like, Hey, we have this technology, this, whatever, where we can recapture it.

And oh, we should, we should spread this out across other species and cultures because we need to preserve, I think, I think we're onto something. Soul hunters are, are from the great egg.

Brent: I really, I like, I want to go take a, I wanna take a

Jeff: It's the egg, it's the egg in their forehead. That's what the forehead thing is. Is there the symbol of the

Brent: I want to, I want to go look at the picture of the dad. I wanna go look at the picture of the soul hunter and I wanna compare the two and I wanna see cuz I'm, I, I feel like there's some similarities, but also some differences, but it could be, I don't know, at it's it's a thing. It's a thing. There was this line somewhere in the middle of it.

I didn't write down who said it? I'm assuming this was Dr. Franklin, but it could have been Sinclair. He said you gotta heal the family before you heal the patient,

Jeff: Oh yeah.

Brent: know, uh, such a good line. Uh, it, it kind of goes back to what he was saying at the beginning. You gotta get on their side. You gotta get 'em over here first.

Um, can we say this about Dr. Franklin though? Or what do you think? Cause I think this is true. He should have been fired and cashiered out of the service

Jeff: Oh, yeah. Yeah, no conversation. No, no, nothing. Just a literal, like you got your nap sack. You're out. Go. I'm putting you on a cargo ship. You're not even getting like a seat.

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Which by the way, perhaps makes this the most, um, other show we don't talk about here anymore or I'm not allowed to anyway. Uh, you can, you can, it probably makes it the most, one of those things ever. mm-hmm

Jeff: Right. Well, and I, I though I think you hit it on the head when it's like this great story where these things are gonna happen, but crap, we already recast this, this thing once and, and came up with a story of why are we gonna have all the doctors that ever come on babble on five, like spin off and do a thing.

And yeah. Can we talk real quick about IVA?

Brent: was hope I was getting ready to do that. I hopes hoping you're going that

Jeff: Yeah, I, oh my, so I stand IVA have this whole time and I think it's the first time I've ever used that phrase that I stand someone I've ever used that in my

Brent: Do you know what it means?

Jeff: I do. Yeah. It's the M and M stand thing, right? No.

Brent: no, no. M and M Stan is a, is the name of a person? Stan. Stan is when you stand somebody, it's an, it's an amalgamation of the word stalker fan. You're not just a fan. You're a stalker fan. You stand them.

Jeff: I do not stand Ava. That's weird. So I retract that

Brent: But,

Jeff: you're, if you're on YouTube and you listen to this on whatever you might, you might not hear this

Brent: but little, little different than the stand M and M, but not to, I mean, there's definitely some similarities, but not, not quite. Yeah.

Jeff: Well, I, I love Ava. She's great. Have thought she's great this whole time for her again. Okay. So putting it in its time and place, we've talked about having a woman in a position of power, having a Russian woman in a position of power. And now what we have is a woman in a position of power, actively advocating for herself.

This is so powerful today in 2022, as we're recording this, like. Pushing back on Sinclair. And he was so offhand about it. Like it, he had zero intent of insulting her, but it was the most insulting thing he could possibly say. And she didn't let him off the hook. I loved that so much.

Brent: Yeah, I, I love, I mean, and she turned around and did what Sinclair wanted. She's like, I need to get outta the house. I'm itching to get outta the house. Like I fully understand that I get exactly where she's coming from, but she goes full on Sinclair. She should not have gone on this mission. That was not her role.

That's not what she's supposed to do.

Jeff: but they talk about, and, and then she's the one who's brought this up a couple of times. There's certain activities that happen on the station that require a person of command rank. And from what I can tell that's her Sinclair and GU Baldy,

Brent: right

Jeff: they needed someone at that level to go because there could have been combat, which is a really, I don't know, a weird.

A weird rule. I think anyone whose fighter qualified should be ready to lead a squad.

Brent: on a station of 250,000 people. There's only three command level members.

Jeff: That would be ridiculous. That would be ridiculous.

Brent: many, how many are actually part of the, the military guard that's running the station.

Jeff: Well, I don't think a lot, cuz clearly they're not, they're not running any security or policing activities on the Zocalo or anywhere else. So

Brent: Sounds about right. But I, but realistically you're probably looking at, at out of 250,000, you're probably looking at 500 to a thousand people that are

Jeff: say probably 1200. Yeah.

Brent: And probably more than that, that are working for the station itself and people that are running their own businesses and stuff.

Like there's gotta be more than just three people in command of command rank. Right. Cause doesn't that mean that one of those three have to be on at all times as well.

Jeff: If, if they have to be on at all times one, and then they also have to be out leading every potential combat mission. Oh. And they have to be the ones accepting prisoners that are coming off of. Yeah. It just,

Brent: and they gotta go be the ambassador representative to whatever issues are going on there and they have to, okay, wait a minute.

Jeff: Yeah. It doesn't quite stack up, but again, maybe that's why Sinclair, uh, sleeps for four minutes a day,

Brent: Right,

Jeff: you know? Yeah,

Brent: right. Yeah. I, I loved, I liked this, uh, blot. I will tell you what I was supremely impressed by. I know this doesn't happen very often, a deep space nine, but this is a great example of where the, a plot and blo lined up super nicely. They super com did you catch it? Because they're both about an officer disobeying orders to do what they think is right.

To save people.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: what they're both about. Right. We commend a PVA. We question Franklin. So who's right. Who's wrong, right.

Jeff: Yeah, I forget her line at the end, when she talked about that, where she's like, it was a, was an, it was an educated or a, a guess or an educated risk, an educated risk. And then Gar of all these, like, yeah. Why should catch you up on a few things around here?

Brent: right. Uh,

Jeff: wow. But that's the thing, isn't it? Right? Like what if Franklin had done the operation and they came and saw Sean and they're like, oh my gosh, you were right. We're so sorry. We were a pain in the butt. Now Franklin's a visionary and he is a hero.

Brent: well, he's gonna be the guy who upends an entire culture, cuz they're gonna go back to their culture and be like, he's still here. He's still alive. He still hasn't escaped. Like it's gonna like, cause a, a revolution on their, on their deal. Like, uh, that's how sci-fi normally goes.

Jeff: it

Brent: like it's what I it's, it's what I liked.

And it's what I hate about this episode. All at the same time is because it went away that this episode gets set up. You see it, but it went in a different way and honestly it went in probably a more true to life way, frankly, frankly.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: All right, Jeff, let me ask you, let's boil it down. We've hit that spot. It's that time? I want you to rate this episode on a scale of zero to five deltas. How much does this give us hope for the future or hold up a mirror to society or teach a moral lesson or pose a moral question zero to five deltas.

And should we watch this one sooner?

Jeff: So in my opinion, we should have watched

a little bit sooner. I think that this, uh, this is one that I, frankly, like you said, I'm gonna, I don't necessarily wanna watch this one again, but not because it was not good, but because it feels disgusting to watch it for, for all the right reasons, but it sets things up in a way that earlier, wow, this would've added some really cool depth and context to characters, but in the storyline, I don't think it would've necessarily worked that much, but God, this was a great episode.

This was such a good episode of babble on five and a great episode of science fiction. And the whole time I was watching it. And I think that you alluded to this a couple times too. I was like, this is star Trek a hundred percent. Like this is a slam dunk. Five Delta episode, we've got, uh, we've got a, a woman in a position of power advocating for herself and, and going out and, and taking care of business.

We have faith versus science or faith as science, right? When it's like, yeah, there, God, is this you're God is medicine. What's the difference. We talk about respecting cultures and beliefs, the sanctity of what Babylon five stands for. If you know, Sinclair just exerts his will. The moment that I initially decided that yes, 100%, this is a five Delta episode was when the parents forgave Franklin.

That was huge. And for me, and again, this is aging me, but this brought up, uh, Ronald Reagan, when the ASA and John Hinkley attempted to assassinate him. And he went into the, the hospital to forgive him for that. When Pope John Paul II was shot and he went to the prison. To forgive the per, like this was Saint level forgiveness that they, they put on him.

Oh, oh. But then . But after that, yeah, they, they ritually, um, kill their son and leave, uh, leave, uh, leave Franklin, holding onto all that stuff. I think that, you know, star Trek, doesn't always end on a positive note and I think that's, um, people often decry star Trek. Well, it's all sunshine and roses and they this, no, no, there's some wildly dark.

You mentioned tubic in there, but there's some wildly dark episodes of star Trek. This, this went a couple, this one quite a bit darker, I think, than, than star Trek. Did I think that for me, where I start really chipping away at the five Delta piece, there's a line that Sinclair said to Franklin after it was all kind of said and done, and he said, you never should have made the request. And he was just implying, you should have just done this. Like you shouldn't have come to me. You shouldn't have made it a deal. You should have, you should, should have just done it, which is really what Ivanova did. She just peeled off and took care of the thing. And then there's a piece we didn't talk about at all.

But the parents went politicing to all the different ambassadors. I mean, even KSH made an appearance for this, but they were trying to basically set up a way to, if, if, uh, Sinclair side Frank signed Franklin's request to, to shut him down, it was masterful how they all selfishly were like, oh, that's it's really too bad.

You have nothing that matters to us. So we're not gonna put our necks on the line. I like Jaar actually, when he is just like, I don't even know your world existed until two days ago. and now you're gonna come to me.

Brent: okay. I'm sorry. I'm gonna interrupt you just a little bit. Jaar and lawn, both stole this episode for the two. 15 seconds that they were on the screen each, but when they were on, they were on and they stole the whole thing. It was they're. Those two guys are probably the best part of this

Jeff: It was, there's an amazing Kar. He speak in the laundry, just like, well, you know, I'm gonna have to do this. And we call this guy and a, I mean, you know, I just wanna have the energy to do that for someone who's not cent So I think that this, this definitely similar to last week, posed top tier level star Trek questions where last week failed as it posed them.

And then it went in like politic things in a great episode, but it didn't dive into them. This episode did dive into them, but it took a grittier more, uh, more contemporary view on it. I'm still super high on this one. I'm gonna score this four deltas.

Brent: right. Yep.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: So to just kind of piggyback off what you're saying there about star Trek, uh, specifically. Star Trek actually is at its best. Some of its best episodes are ones where it poses the question, it explores it and then it stops. It doesn't answer it. Doesn't say what's right or wrong. It leaves that to you as the audience to decide that's not star Trek, that sci-fi sci-fi does that best.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: And that's where I find, uh, episodes like this one. But as far as is this star Trek, I, you know, at first, when he is like, you, you first talk to the patients and you get to know him and I'm like, yeah, that's star Trek. That's that's cuz that's what we do. We talk, we get to know the other side and, and that's what solves the, the conflict and stuff like that.

And then turns out he was just trying to manipulate him and he went and did it anyway. So that wasn't it, it came down to this line though, between Sinclair and Franklin at the end, I think they were sitting on the stoop or whatever they were, they were on. Sinclair says this, what makes us human is that we care.

Because we care, we don't stop trying. And then Franklin turns around and says, no, what makes us human is that we have so many ways to hurt. Now. I think Franklin was talking about hurting on the inside, cuz this was after all that happened. Not necessarily inflicting pain on others, we have so many ways to inflict pain.

I don't think that's what he was talking about. I suppose he could have meant that because that's what he did, but I'm gonna choose to believe that he was talking about the former of we're human because we feel so deeply. We hurt. I think they're both right. And I think these two statements together are a wonderful statement on the condition of humanity.

And that's where we find the star Trek. It's a commentary on condition of humanity. It's not our fight, but we care and we won't stop trying. And because we care, we're gonna feel it in the deep recesses of our soul. In other words, Jeff. I know we're in this part, but I'm gonna need one. Anyway. I need to borrow one of your unused star Trek references.

You didn't use all of yours.

Jeff: did we say we could do that? Like that's cool.

Brent: Yeah, I think we did. If we didn't, I'm gonna say yes.

Jeff: Yeah, here you go. Here you go. You can use it. All right,

Brent: here's the deal. In other words, we're not F Ethan Vulcans.

Jeff: right.

Brent: We feel we have emotions. We care and that's what makes us humans. That's what makes us do what we do. That's what drives us. Franklin only did what he did because he cared. Now. It might have been wrong, but he did it for the right reasons. You know,

Jeff: Mm-hmm

Brent: when they came and they killed that little kid or the shell of the little kid, however you wanna look at it.

Franklin broke to pieces. Why? Because he was wrong because he was gonna get in trouble because no, because he cared. This is what makes us human. This is what makes us, I'm gonna say great. I've been watching enterprise lately for beat me up. And one of the things that I know in that is cuz in a lot of ways that epi, that show is about the founding of the Federation over in star Trek and how the four different cultures came together. And there's a piece of the, the three other cultures that, that formed were already out there in the universe.

It's almost like they were waiting for humanity to come on the scene before it could coalesce because humanity was the one that could bring them together. Humanity like this, this thing that makes us uniquely human, that sometimes has us make the wrong choice. Let's face it. We, we make the wrong choice, but you do it because you care. That's what draws things together. That's what's so attractive to those out there who just feel, or those who want to war or those who want whatever it brings us together. It is a beautiful statement on what makes us human. You can make a right decision. You can make a wrong decision, but you do it because you care and in doing so, you get to keep your job anyway.

So for me, I'm gonna very much disagree with you. And I'm gonna tell you, you need to rank that sucker back up, cuz this is five deltas through. And through that one line you, you picked out, you're absolutely right. I'm not gonna discount you, but I'm gonna discount that. That takes any Delta off. If I could give this thing six deltas, I'd give it six deltas cuz it's star Trek through and through it answers every single one of those things.

Yes, we should have watched it sooner. Do I wanna watch it again? Not anytime soon. Cause I don't like this journey. I don't wanna go down this one. I'm ready to move on to the next episode. I don't know about you, Jeff. put this one to bed.

Jeff: And that's it. We can put this one to bed. We just did it. That is believe so next week we're gonna be watching.

Survivors. Now we talked about this at the beginning, but Brent, we don't know anything about this. Other than that one word. What do you think survivors is? Oh, you got it. Okay.

Brent: it. I got it. I got it. Okay. So it's actually like a part two to this episode. All right. On in, in the world of the great egg, wherever they are, there is a group of people who have been cut open. Maybe they fell off their bike when they were kids. I don't know. And they are still alive, but their spirit has escaped them and they are the survivors and they're gonna come out of the woodwork and whatever.

That's what I think it

Jeff: Maybe, maybe they end up with that. Ultimately that revolution that would've happened. If Franklin, if they didn't ritually kill their kid and look, he's fine. Everything's

Brent: Right. Cause that's all gonna get back to the home world, you know?

Jeff: And I love that too, because then. Like the Ja cars and the lawns who are just like, yeah, you are nothing. And then this massive religious rebellion is gonna break out and it's gonna be right in their front yard at some point.

Brent: but see, here's the thing, because this is a low budget show and they don't have the budget. They're not gonna be able to make the world that they're gonna have to go live on. So all those survivors what's gonna happen is they're going to have heard that Babylon five is a place where they can live and actually be accepted, even though that one guy got killed, but that was cuz of his parents, the rest of the people were ready to accept him.

So they're gonna come now. Try to live on the station.

Jeff: Or maybe they're already there. Right. And then like catch wind of like, these people were here and they did this, oh, this is so wrong. And this is gonna, oh, I, I like

Brent: They're the survivors. That's that's my guess.

Jeff: That's good.

Brent: What about you, Jeff?

Jeff: So I think, I think we're gonna take a dark turn, a

Brent: Again, how do we take a dark turn? After this

Jeff: Right. How do we

Brent: killed a kid. Jeff, we killed a kid

Jeff: Uh, I think, uh, I think we're gonna, we're gonna go back to home guard and I think home guard is gonna up the stakes. I'm thinking, uh, bombing in the council chambers or something like that. And then it's gonna turn into not, not anyone in there. Like no one will have been there. Maybe somebody that doesn't matter, but then it's gonna turn into one of those kind of procedural shows where they talk to the people that work on the station that were around it, who survived the survivors.

And it's gonna like piece together what actually happened. And then, yeah. Yeah. I think it's

Brent: sci-fi courtroom shows. I, I, I hate like stuff like, uh, uh, all the courtroom dramas you see, see during prime time, I'm not a big fan of those, but when sci-fi does an episode, that's a courtroom episode. Oh, I love those

Jeff: Yeah. And it's gonna be, there's gonna be, there's gonna be somebody in there who's, you know, clearly, clearly innocent, but a little weird, but as they start piecing the stories together, why does this guy's name keep coming up? What's this? And then, oh, I'm the, I'm the racist over here. Hi. That's my guess,

Brent: all right. All right. Well, Jeff, I like it. I guess we're gonna find out next week if we're right, or if we're wrong, but for now that is gonna put a button on the episode.

Jeff: literally all week Brent spent texting. He is like, I don't care if this screws up monetization or whatever, we're playing

Brent: want you to go back in everywhere, where we have said the word believer before now, reinsert that like, just cut it out and put that in. I don't care how annoying it gets for the hour or whatever that this episode goes. Hey folks, out there, don't forget. To subscribe to Babylon five for the first time, wherever you get your podcast is that apple podcast podcast at Stitcher overcast podcast, chaser, audible, uh, Google play music, Spotify, um, uh, iHeartRadio.

Any of those, you guys can find us, make sure you subscribe or go check us out on YouTube, catch all the behind the scenes action of what's happening with Jeff. And I you'll find out all the places where we screwed up. You'll get the, the things that Jeff decides to cut out and says, no, that's Brent really just went off the wall talking about something.

So I'm gonna cut all that out. Uh, or you're gonna, you're gonna get all the, we have like a pre-show little banter that we do before. Sometimes a little post show, depending on what we got going on. Uh, so you guys go over, subscribe to us on YouTube. Like there's a huge community that's developing on YouTube, especially, and you guys wanna jump in and be a part of that.

It is. Fan freaking TA and please, wherever you go, if they allow you to leave a rating and review, I know apple does that. I know audible does that and I know pod chaser. Those are the three I know that allow you to do ratings and reviews. If there's another one, please do it there too. Go give us a rating and review it, lets other people know that we're awesome and that they should listen to us just like you.

And they can also join this fan fan community that is coming up around this amazing babble on five show that Jeff and I are just discovering for the first time.

Jeff: And until next time, Brent, I'm just gonna wander two and fro maybe throw in two the whole time. I'm gonna make sure that I live long and prosper.

Brent: Come on, man. Not a star Trek podcast.

Jeff: Someday I'll get it.