Ceremonies of Light and Dark

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon 5 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five for the very first time. But we're doing the Star Trek thing right here with Babylon five, where we're looking for all those deep, hidden messages that are laid within a really a fantastic 1990s sci-fi.

Jeff: And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are Star Trek podcasters, as well as Babylon five podcasters. But those Star Trek references are sure to make their way into our conversation. So to keep us honest, each of us get only three references to Star Trek during the entire episode. It's called the Rule of Three because we only get three.

That's it. No substitutions. Exchanges are really fun. Hey,

Brent: Jeff,

Jeff: We have a five star review. Oh yes. This is on Apple Podcasts, and it's from Andrew, like in a fancy French way of saying Andrew. And Andrew

Brent: Andrew.

Jeff: I'm Andrew. Andrew.

Brent: I'm not trying to make fun of the French people. I just don't know how to speak it. And in the words of Professor Higgins, the French people don't really care what you say as long as you say it correctly.

Jeff: well, we didn't do either those things. And if Marcus were here now, he would be chiding us for being French or pretending to be French. Hey. Anyway, Andrew writes a review on Apple podcast. He says, I'm aching for more. Ha. Yeah, it's a good one. Well, hey, he says I was late to Babylon five, but really enjoyed it when I watched the series several years ago. I should have watched it sooner. I've enjoyed following along in real time as the host discover the ins and outs of the show. They have a good rapport and are really good at thoughtfully discerning and discussing the themes of B five.

It's quickly become one of my favorite podcasts.

Brent: Well, thank you Andrew. Please send me a pronunciation guide now. Like, I really want to say it correctly. I'm like, I'm not just trying to, not to joke around. Um, thank you. This is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to as well, although I am biased. Uh, but I'm glad you found it. And you know what, Jeff, what have you come to any other fandoms late in life? Like? I came to Star

Jeff: be honest. You did?

Brent: like, I was in my, I was very much in my twenties, uh, late in life before I, I found Star Trek and, and then I found this one, um, several others like . She just, I don't know. Uh, uh, my football team was very late in life. , well, not very late in life. I was still relatively early, but whatever, uh, I don't know why I pointed that out.

Camaraderie with Andrew.

Jeff: And draw. And draw maybe. Ah, well, hey, maybe this guy heard all of my references to Battlestar Galactica in the in the last episode, but Gaius Ballar emailed us. We have an . Yeah, one. We have an email address. It's Babylon five first gmail.com. It's number five and the word first gmail.com. And Gaius says, this podcast of yours is fantastic, and I'm very glad I've found it.

I believe I've watched this series at least 20 times by now, possibly more like yourselves. I'm also a Trek fan and particularly love Deep Space Nine. They're both outstanding pieces of storytelling, but BAB five has the edge for me. I appreciate you don't want spoilers, but it was interesting to listen to your take on the first season.

It has the reputation of being much weaker than what comes next, and I tended to skip it on re watches, but your podcast had me fire up the first season for the first time in a while. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. It gave me a real feeling of nostalgia. Thanks for doing this podcast and thank you for doing it in the manner and spirit that you're doing it.

Looking forward to listening to your show from here on out. I don't think it's a spoiler though, to say that you are going to love it. Regards, Gais.

Brent: You know, Jeff, I don't know how many times I have to tell people. If you have to say, I don't think it's a spoiler to say, then just don't say it. Although that one was perfectly fine. Thank you guys. Thank you. And you know what, you know what I love about Gais

Jeff: What's

Brent: is he fully embraces both his Babylon five fandom and his Star Trek fandom.

And even though he is like, but bye Bell and five still has the edge for me. Like that's totally cool, totally cool. Um, and he gets to love both. And I just, I love both.

Jeff: Yeah, I love them both and Major. And Major Barrett said we can, she said that's okay. And basically the mouth that's, I mean, it's not Ivanova saying it, but it's as close to the mouth of God as you

Brent: Well, she was saying it playing a role where she was channeling her dead husband.

Jeff: Well, there you

Brent: So

Jeff: Yeah, I think it

Brent: I think it counts. I really do. Well, Jeff, you know, along with, uh, getting to read these awesome comments and reviews and along with our role of three, we have another segment that we like to do, but this one doesn't come till much later in the episode. In fact, it's like the next to last thing that we do At the very end of the episode where we look ahead to next week's episode.

All we do is we read the, the episode title and we try to guess what that episode is gonna be. Sometimes we're amazingly accurate. Most of the time we're hilariously off. So, Jeff, I have a question for you. Looking back at last week's episode, when you predicted what this week's episode was gonna be, were you ridiculously accurate or hilariously off?

Jeff: I was just off, not hilariously, like I thought it was gonna be a Dalen episode,

Brent: Kind of got

Jeff: that, kind of got that. But I, I thought that she was gonna end up paying a price for breaking the council, like she was gonna be put on trial or the Warrior cast was gonna come together and invoke some Right.

Or something like that. And we got nothing of this sort. What about you?

Brent: Uh, well, I said that this was gonna be cleaning up from the fallout of the battle, so I think we got a bit of that. Uh, they, I said they were gonna have to fix the station. I didn't really see much of that, but I did say they'd have some funerals. We got a funeral scene. Um, I said they're trying to get back to whatever the new normal is, which sure.

I, I mean that was the whole point of Dylan's thing, uh, was trying to get to that spot. Uh, we'll talk about that a little bit more later. Um, but I also said maybe this is where the other alien species out there have to acknowledge whether Babylon five is an independent state or not. Because you can say, yeah, I'm independent, but it doesn't matter if nobody, you know, recognizes you as that.

So, uh, that didn't happen at all. That wasn't a part of it. So, half a point for me too, maybe.

Jeff: Yeah. Not bad. Really.

Brent: Well, Jeff, uh, that's what we thought this episode was gonna be about. For the folks out there playing along at home who haven't watched this episode in a while, or maybe they've never seen the show just like us and they didn't watch this episode first, why don't you to tell the folks out there what actually happened in this week's episode.

Jeff: Mobile device management is just as much a pain in 2260 as it is in 2023. Who has the passwords? Where did this update come from? What do you mean? You can see all my texts. Well, Babylon five s Maz 360 admin is Earth Central and that's no good. So Garibaldi whose leg is suddenly okay, but now he's got a hurt arm all of a sudden.

Well, he takes a break for from routing out night watch and uh, he's gonna go try and reprogram the computer. It's pretty simple to do. He's done it before. He just needs a few command codes. Captain Sheridan is obsidian commander of Enva Griffin and Chief Warrant Officer Garabaldi Peekaboo. plugs those in, reboots the machine, and we get into one of the most Buck Rodgers corny subplots in the series to date.

AI with an attitude has taken control. Oh, it still does the stuff, and it's not malicious or anything, you know, that we know of. It's just super annoying. Fortunately, it doesn't get in the way of a touching scene where Sheridan and Ivanova acknowledged the sacrifice of the crew. They're launched into space, their bodies, to rest among the stars. lot has happened over the last few episodes, the Minbar cruisers are still hanging around the station to protect it, and Dalen is meeting with the captains to thank them for their service. She decides it's time to reflect upon the past and prepare for a great change. And she calls for a rebirth ceremony.

It includes meditation, reflection, sharing a secret that has never been shared before, and offering something of great personal. The guest list is lengthy. It includes Sheridan, Ivanova, Garabaldi of course, but also Marcus some key people in the non-aligned worlds in Jaar, oh, and Londo, and she thinks that he needs to be there.

Most of all. She goes about the station inviting everybody. Jaar is far too busy with station security and ensuring the NAS have a role. After all, this unpleasantness with Earth has passed. Marcus just doesn't want to go. Something about not listening to others and blaming himself for his brother's death, along with a woman that he was quite fond of.

Turns out the thing of great personal value that he needs to give away is his survivor's guilt. Londo is confused by the invitation and turns it down, says he's already dealing with his actions and preparing for a better future. Earlier in the episode, he met with Lord Refa to almost beg him to cut off relations with Morden.

Refa sees Morden as his golden ticket to the throne and refuses. So according to the classic traditions, Londo poisons, REFA kind of, he slipped a poison into his drink. That'll lie dormant until another is introduced at an unknown time by an unknown person resulting in a painful death Cut ties with Morden.

Hey, no second poison. Don't cut ties. And well go watch the episode Knives and see just how capable Londo is of putting a sonari under the dirt. everything seems to be going well. Marcus leaves Del Land after their difficult conversation and Dalen goes to meet the fleet captain, but they're ambushed by a group of, oh my gosh, what was.

But they're ambushed by a group of night watch thugs led by Caliban from T K O. He's back. Oh no, sorry, nevermind. Some dude named Bogs. I don't think this guy though ever drank 70 beers on a cross country trip, but he has absolutely seen better times. He's ragged, he's scarred, and he's mean. He's communicating with night watch back on Earth and appears to be leading efforts here on the station.

They're holding Dalen and the fleet captain demanding that the Minbar cruisers leave Babylon five and Sheridan puts the station back under Earth Control. Marcus, who feels guilty for leaving Dalen goes on the hunt. They've compromised security Night watch. People are still on staff, so they have to go down below and rely on Marcus.

Lanier and Marcus end up in the same place and down below, and after literally every other person is beat up to the point of passing out, Lanier shares his secret with Marcus. He loves Dalen, but not like, loves her, loves her more like loves, loves, loves her like a deep, not really romantic love, despite the fact that she's destined for another.

Though he is still committed to staying by her side to the bitter, bitter end. After some searching and aggressive questioning, they locate the man. I'm really rocking it. After some searching and aggressive questioning, they locate Dalen and Night Watch. They set up a coolant leak, forcing an evacuation of that area. Sorry. They set up a, they set up a coolant leak forcing an evacuation of that area. Sheridan and crew intercept them, and after some more budget cut style PPG shots, the day is saved. Oh wait. Len takes a knife in the back from an absolute psycho. Sheridan chases him down, ready to tear him apart. He takes him down and Dalen gets to med lab hostage situation in recovery from the stab wound, mess up the timing for the rebirth ceremony.

Linear informs everyone it's gonna be canceled, not accepting that Sheridan visits Tolen and says he's bringing the ceremony to her. He and all the Earth Force D V D cover people give her their uniforms as something of great personal value. Then they share secrets. Franklin says he might have a problem.

Garabaldi says he's afraid of what he'll do if he ever loses his garabaldi says he's afraid of what he'll do if he ever loses control of himself. And I'm not sure which one has the bigger punch here. Well, Sheridan stays true to his namesake by saying that he loves Dalen without actually saying that he loves Dalen. And Ivanova says that she thinks she was in love with Talia, anticipating some of this Dalen had gifts created for the team.

New uniforms. Now they're wearing the ones that your action figures have. Brent. And not only do they get new uniforms, they got a new logo. It's the t-shirt that I've been wearing off and on and I'm wearing right now on the YouTube stream. The episode ends with a flashback to the gathering as Sheridan Channels, his inner Taka taima and says Babylon five is open for business.

What did you think? Brent? Ceremonies of light and dark. Also, what did you think of my really stumbly delivery of all of that? Good God. It's like I've never done

Brent: Yeah, I don't know how much of that you're actually gonna cut out of the, uh, audio version, but for those of you in the audio version, you can go over to our YouTube channel and catch the unedited behind the scenes version. And this particular one,

Jeff: Took me 46 minutes to say

Brent: was a doozy for Jeff. Uh, but you know what? You powered through it.

You struggled through it, you got to the other side, and you did a good job. And I'm really glad you were the one who had to do the recap for this particular episode. Um, so when I first watched this episode, the folks out there by now know that I do reaction videos to my first watch of these episodes. You know, and when I did that episode, uh, I got all the way to the end of it, watched the entire episode, made all my notes and everything like that. And I was like, man, thi this was a really heavy episode.

It's not bad, but it was kind of heavy, you know, like, um, I, I wasn't quite sure. Like, I was like, that's, that's where they want to go right after everything that happened. Okay. Like I, and I, I can, I can hear people in the comments right now. They're all like, oh, well you just had a big battle and you gotta deal with this and you gotta deal with that.

And, you know, you can't expect everything to be wrapped up in a nice little bone in 45 minutes and they got nuance. You apparently don't understand nuance. No, I get all of that. I'm just saying it's not where I would've gone right after that show, you know? Um, but I realized I didn't hit record when I went through that, and so I had to redo the whole thing. And those of you who've watched that reaction video by now, you actually already know this. Uh, and by the way, if you wanna see that reaction, you can, uh, go over to our YouTube page and you can catch those. Um, or they're also, the full versions are up on the, uh, Patreon page where people can catch that.

Jeff. Little shameless plug. Uh,

Jeff: I've got my unedited ones

Brent: do too. That is correct. And, uh, I gotta tell you, the second time I watched it though, Jeff, I really like, I appreciated it a lot more. It wasn't as heavy as I thought it was. It was still heavy, but I really liked where it went. I, I was, I was tracking, I think the second time a lot more with Dylan and what she was trying to do for the crew.

And that to me, I think was the through line that was really compelling. Uh, and, and, and we'll talk about it, but I loved how despite everybody was giving her all the excuses in the world, why they couldn't come to her Christmas party. You know what I mean? Um, she, and she gets to the end. She's like, well then if it's just me, then it's just gonna be me, but I'm gonna do it anyway because we need to have this done.

And um, you know, I was like, man, if Jeff ever branches out from Star Trek to do his leadership academy stuff, there's something there to that. There's something there. Uh, so like, I think I liked this episode much more than I initially did. I don't know that this is gonna be a favorite episode of the season for me, but I thought it was a fine episode. How about you?

Jeff: I didn't think it was a fine

Brent: Hmm?

Jeff: so I was traveling this

Brent: You don't understand nuance, Jeff? Like, listen man, this is babble on five, not Star Trek. Not everything's gonna be wrapped up in 45 minutes in a nice little.

Jeff: I need a bow. I need a bow on it. I need a beginning, middle, and end every 45 minutes. I mean, I just, I don't understand tv. I like Star Trek. Sorry, that was a little over the top. It's

Brent: To all of you commenting out there, we love you guys.

Jeff: We do This is, it's, it's in fun. It is in fun. But also we get nuance. Like we do, we do.

Brent: We're just, we're just having to record our initial reactions, like we understand it, but we're giving you the reactions that we had, so there you go.

Jeff: you get the whole thing here. So I was, I was traveling this last week, so I watched it the first time on the plane, which is never a great place to watch something, especially when you're trying to like, analyze it and stuff. But usually my first watch is just a pure watch. I'm not taking notes, I'm just watching.

And then I watched the second time and the after the first one, I, I felt kind of similar to you. And it's like, oh, okay. Like they're acknowledging some of the stuff that happened. They're slowing the pace down. This is that breather episode. But when I watched it the second time, I realized that is, Get ready, commenters get ready.

Dalen is just a bag of hot wind who never actually says anything and goes out of her way to sound super smart and super wise. But really she just speaks in a way that makes everything seem like it is so much more impactful than it really is. Multiple times she said nothing and, and she just said it in her like cadence, that's beautiful and amazing, but didn't actually say anything.

And I agree her whole, I'm gonna have the party no matter what that is. Awesome. That's leadership. You create the environment and allow others to come. That's awesome. But most of the other stuff she was saying, I'm just like, she, she, she's just like one of those politicians who just has a great cadence and rhythm to what she says.

But there's very little su, at least in this episode, very little substance to what she actually said. I had a really hard time with this one.

Brent: Is that because we have no idea what the Rebirth Ceremony actually does or what it's for under what circumstance you do? Because I still am not entirely clear on that. It's just, Hey, now it'd be a good time to do this thing.

Jeff: I have a theory and this you, I am okay with people commenting on this to tell us if we're right or wrong. Cuz she said that she did this part of this two years ago. I think this is the gimmick from Parliament of Dreams.

Brent: Where they did the marriage thing.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , they had like the little red berry things or whatever. I think, I think that that was part of the ceremony and this was supposed to like, we were supposed to pick up on it and be like, oh yeah, this is that thing. I'm not sure about that, but, but yeah, I,

Brent: That, by the way, that's what I thought it was too, when she said that. I had that same thought. Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. Like all in all, I just feel like there were, I, I, I liked the idea of Night Watch still being on the station and actively trying to like mess stuff up. They teased that in Severed Dreams paid off right here. I liked that a lot.

The, the story of it was kind of, eh, a little bit, but I mean, on top of that and then the Londo stuff with Refa. Woo. Oof. That was good. I'm looking forward to talking about that. And, uh, but like between the computer stuff and Thelen stuff, I just, I don't know. This, this episode a, I think especially after the three episodes we just got through this episode was a tremendous letdown for me.

Brent: So the, the notes that I immediately had the first time I watched this episode, and I, I will stick by these particular notes. I said, what a letdown after the last three weeks, nobody Tell me about the word pallet cleanser. That is not what this episode is. This a pallet cleanser? You know what a pallet cleanser is?

A pallet cleanser is a comedy. That's a pallet cleanser. This

Jeff: it would be soulmates, right? It'd be soulmates from the second seasons. Like there's some, there's some stuff in there, but it's mostly

Brent: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , that would be a pallet cleanser. Um, there was a little bit in this episode of what's next mixed with a whole lot of crazies. You know,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: said, the second time I watched it, I appreciated a lot more because I was tracking the Lens's through line.

It's interesting when you sit back and you say, she said nothing the whole episode, because I can't argue with you on that. You are a hundred percent right. But she made it sound so cool, but the

Jeff: She does, she makes it sound great.

Brent: fact that she was trying to pull everybody in to, to do this thing and people kept saying, no, I just found so compelling.

You know, like she, she believed in this process so much that this was going to do something and she never told us what, because as you said, she doesn't say anything. Right, but I didn't care cuz I would've done this, this, this, uh, ceremony with her no matter what. And we got these freaking cool uniforms,

Jeff: right.

Brent: That, because I gotta be honest. All right, so I picked up this, uh, uh, what is this an action figure for those of you not watching the YouTube, I'm currently holding a John Sheridan Earth Alliance Space Action figure, which I found in a, in a used, uh, video game shop way back while we were still in, in season one.

And I didn't even know who John Sheridan was. And people were like, well, it's a big spoiler. And I'm like, guys, there's five seasons. Characters are going to come and go. Like, I get that. I'll meet him when he, I had no idea who he was or where he'd come in. I didn't know I'd be meeting him in like four episodes later, , you know.

Um, but he also has this, uh, uh, uniform, which is the uniform we saw today. Now up in the corner it says in earth force uniform up here. So I really just thought that, you know, a lot of times when you translate stuff from real life into action figures, like it does not translate. That's what I really thought this was.

I just thought they just screwed up the coloring of the uniform. Like, that's all I thought it was, but no, no. This actually is the uniform that we see here now. I really wanna know what the finger pointing is because I know that's a joke and, and I don't get it yet, but I really wanna find out what that that finger pointing is.

Jeff: you know, I had assumed with that uniform because, so one thing we need to mark with this episode is this is not just the halfway point of season three. This is the halfway point of Babylon five.

Brent: Is it

Jeff: and a half. It is two and a half seasons of five. We have two and a half left to

Brent: wait, you mean everything we've been through for this last like year and change, or however long it's been, we gotta do this all over again. Like we got, we're only half, like we got another half to go. Oh my gosh.

Jeff: We got a lot of, lot of show left in front of us. But you know, another show, another show that around through it's halfway Mark decided that they were gonna change their uniforms and update them to match the, you know, they to match the movie that came out with first contact. I really felt that uniform we saw in the action figure was just their version of deep space nine's, new uniforms. It's what I

Brent: I didn't make that connection at all. At all. But let's talk about the uniforms, cuz I thought that this was a very interesting conversation that they were having Sheridan refuses to wear the, to wear the Earth Force uniform and rightly so. Apparently nobody else had a problem with it. They all wanted to keep wearing it. Sheridan was like, yeah, I'll wear it this one more time for the funeral, which I'm not sure why, but Which I guess is maybe just respect for the dead.

Not necessarily. Yeah.

Jeff: Well, I think we talked about it last week and, and I, I liked how you put it where they were holding onto that because they felt that they were still truly Earth force and that President Clark and that those people were the traitors to it. And so I think especially for that funeral scene, those people died to protect what they believed Earth and Earth Force was about.

I think it was respectful to have worn the uniform, but you're right. He's telling I can't wear it. It's garbage tell. As long as this guy's in power and these things are going on, I can't wear this. And everyone's like, oh, well I'm still gonna wear mine.

Brent: like at that point, even if like the rest of the bridge crew didn't do it, Ivanovo should have taken her jacket off. Like, and if, if one by one over the course of the episode, you'd see people like kind of going, yeah, I can't, I can't do this one anymore. Um, that would've been, actually, I think that would've made that end scene where they're bringing the uniform to Dylan in the hospital. It would've made that even more impactful.

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: If you, you saw them like, yeah, I can't do this one anymore. I can't, you know, to even have that conversation of like, this really meant something to, to, to, to verbalize that.

Like, they're, they've gotta let that go because they did just form a new nation, country, state thingy, whatever they are. Um, so I, I quite loved this through line and the fact that like, this was the gift that she got them at the end almost made it seem like the whole subplot with the, with the ceremony was just to get them to uniforms,

Jeff: Yeah. Almost. I, I thought there was a, as a almost a unification, one of the things we haven't talked about a lot, but have alluded to a few times is the uniforms are all a little different. You know, Garibaldis got that security gray thing going on. They're wearing a blue now. Everyone has the same uniform, at least on, you know, the, the, the bridge crew people or the, you know, the main, the main characters.

I don't know if we'll see other,

Brent: Do they, do they have differences? Like, um, if I could ride your buzz from a, a few minutes ago, like even when they changed uniforms with Star Trek, they the, instead of the different colors there, there was just the turtleneck, it was the piping was different, which still signified division. Is there still something that signifies division

Jeff: they still have their stat bars. They have their stat bars on there.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: Yeah. So they have the fold, like the fold over on the right side that, uh, kind of like a webbing almost. And then they have the stat bar over under the, the piping on the left side.

Brent: I

Jeff: But other than that, like it's just a pin. Right. So it's the same, the same uniform, which I thought that was kind of cool.

Just unifying them and then, In the C N C, most of what used to be the Babylon five logo with the kind of olive branch thing. And it has been replaced with what's on my shirt, which is the shield and the sword through the five, which is cool. I got this forever ago. Just thought it was a cool Babylon five logo.

Turns out it's actually a big deal, , like it's a big

Brent: I didn't notice that it was in the, that it was in the CNC area.

Jeff: Same time. So when they, they panned in the camera, they didn't make a big deal

Brent: went over it. I missed that.

Jeff: and yeah, in the scene when they came in, so it came across and it showed some of the stations we've seen and you can just see it like plaster on the wall, except the two, I think it was the two that are in by the main doors still have the olive branch on them.

Brent: So how did Dalen know everybody's sizes?

Jeff: Right. Those are very well tailored. Much better than the security gimmick that Zach was all upset about before

Brent: So does everybody else get a new uniform now?

Jeff: That's what I wanna know. Or is it gonna be like, like TNG where you have your front zip people and your back zip people through the whole

Brent: right. Just depends

Jeff: And I'm writing my old reference

Brent: there you go. I don't think we could ride that one anymore cuz we'll be well past it at that point. Let's talk about the, the, the funeral. Just it, it was very standard space. Sci-fi funeral.

Jeff: Yep,

Brent: read all the names we're gonna launch in. I mean, Jeff, it looked like they went over to the Star Trek lot, borrowed their photon torpedo props, which is what they used to shoot people out into space and Star Trek as well, and came back over and used that same prop.

It looked identical, did it not

Jeff: I totally did. It's the mark, the Mark IV from Star Trek two and three. Yeah. I mean, but I get it. You know, that's what you do. You send them out, so you gotta put 'em in some sort of a coffee. I think it's a neat, cuz you know, in the, in the like old. Navy, you know, way back wooden ships and stuff that we commit your bodies to the deep, you know, and so I felt like it was a really cool evolution, you know, and doing it.

I feel like, I can't remember the episode, but I feel like we saw this in a first season episode also, but it was of honor of a and gar Baldy maybe in scenes. I, I, I just have this memory of, of Ivanova saying that at one point, but I don't really remember, for our commenters out there, you see, we do slowly connect the dots. on a first time watch, we get little pieces. We'll get it on the rewatch. You don't

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Please don't connect those dots for us. Don't save us the rewatch, cuz, cuz we'd love to hit that. But, uh, yeah. Um.

Jeff: I thought it was, I thought it was neat what I, I thought it was powerful when they went through and read the names. I was struck that there weren't there, there weren't as many as I thought there were going to be. And I want to applaud my. Superhuman level of self-control by not by respecting those who died in uniform and in service and not doing a and who else died that they paid respects to.

His name was Alexander Hamilton. Like I was totally gonna do a Hamilton joke in my recap because I was the first name, but I felt that'd be disrespectful. So I'm doing it now as we talk about the episode.

Brent: I wish you would've done it then, cuz that would've been funny. It's, it's not been, it, it's not too soon, Jeff. It's been enough time.

Jeff: 30 years, dude. It's

Brent: Right, right. We're good. Um, the Lens's having a conversation with the captains of the ship that came back with her.

Jeff: I guess.

Brent: these are not great counsel guys. Clearly, guys that were very much warned under pain of death to not speak because they didn't wanna pay them for it.

Right. Um, but she said, huh?

Jeff: Oh, just go, I, I have a night watch joke on

Brent: So she said she, she talked about the trial that is to come. Now what I, I, I was listening to that and I was thinking, well, what exactly is she talking about? Is she talking about the trial of the war with the shadows? Is she talking about this thing going against Earth Force? Is there something back on Mbar?

Is this, is this a, a reference to the breaking of the great council? Like what, what do you think that trial was? That she's like, we're gonna have to go through this. So stick around cuz this is gonna be a thing.

Jeff: So here, here's one of my, it's one of my delay issues I have in this one. So I think it goes way back on, maybe even season one. Gray Council stuff. When we first started seeing the Gray Council, but she talked about the prophecy. And in the prophecy she talked about darkness and fire. I'll have to go through darkness and fire.

I remember her in an episode telling Lanier. It might have been, it might have been the one where they booted her from the Great Council. I forget which episode that was, but. She's like, you know, we, we have dark, we're gonna have to go through darkness and fire. So here she is in front of these captains quoting prophecy, right?

Which we also saw her do when she broke the Great Council. But as Lanier is like, you know, talking to her about stuff or whatever she says, she says to line, she says, prophecy is a poor guide to the future. And I'm like, what in the, everything you say is prophecy. You changed your whole gimmick because of a prophecy.

And now you're gonna lay this prophecy as a poor guide to the future. And this is how you're trying to unite your fleet, captain. And what? Come on, Dalen, get your message on

Brent: well, well, but, but I'm gonna defend that because I quite loved that that line, um, Because the second line, she said right after that, she's like, prophecy is a poor guide to the future. You only know what it means when it's upon you. So it's not that prophecy is useless, it's you need to know what it is so that when it happens, you are aware that this is what it's talking about, not what's to come in the future.

And that very much is on brand for Dylan because she didn't come in hearing this prophecy of old thinking she was gonna have to be the one to go into ch chrysalis and grow hair and unite the two sides of Minbar for this great war. That's to come. But she knew of it and she's like, this is the prophecy.

I, in fact, I would be willing to bet in light of this particular statement, if we went back and tracked, uh, maybe from second half of season one delin through that. There'd be a lot of watching Delin come to the realization that this is her. or even not coming to the realization that it is her, but taking it on to make it her.

Jeff: Yes. I think that, yeah, because again, season one we saw her doing the Tinker Toy thing, that then she got the Tri luminary to complete that, put her in the chrysalis. So I, and I think where I still have an issue with this is I, I can look at the Chrysalis thing as, oh my gosh, I'm the person. It's me. Okay.

Prophecy is now on me, so I know what it is. Breaking of the council. Here it is. But they've been talking about this. We will have to go through darkness and fire. There'll be a trial of darkness and fire since the first season to come, to come, and she's still, this is coming. This is coming. But if it's a poor guide to the future, why are you making all of these decisions on this one line of a trial of darkness and fire?

I just feel it's inconsistent, but I, I totally see where you're coming from. I think you're right that just some of the decisions, and maybe even cuz Kosh even said back in coming of shadows when he talked to the emperor, you know, how how's all this gonna end in fire? It's like fire is a thing through this and maybe, you know, maybe Kasha is reading off some of the same prophecies,

Brent: So

Jeff: it's a two B

Brent: right now, I, if I, if I may just interject because this is a podcast. I have a microphone in front of my face, and here is the topic at hand, something that I have long held. Um, I, I have lived in a world where people try to continually talk about prophecy. Like in real life, people talk about prophecy all the time.

And what is the prophecy and what's this gonna mean in prophecy and what's this gonna mean in prophecy? And, and I was steeped in that for a really long time. And eventually I came to a spot where I was like, look, you know what, when you look at mankind's history, and this isn't in any one particular religion, this is a cross history.

When you look at mankind's history of interpreting unfulfilled prophecy, it's not good.

Jeff: No.

Brent: We typically can only interpret prophecy when it has been fulfilled, which is why I like I That might be why I appreciate this line so much from Dalen, because while maybe I can agree with you that it is inconsistent with her character, it is very much in alignment with a personal thing that I have, which is, yeah, prophecy is a poor guide to the future.

You really only know what it means when it's upon you. Now, I don't think that means you shouldn't study prophecy if you are of that sort of bent, but I do think trying to say this is what it means and this is what's going to happen, is a really dangerous place to be like interpreted as It's, as it's happening now at, uh, telling us what's, here's, here's the, the 13 novel.

Step by step plan of how prophecy is going to unfold. Hey, you wrote 13 really cool novels, dude. Like, and maybe they're not that cool, but whatever I pretty much, here's what I'm left with, is whatever's gonna happen. It's not gonna be that

Jeff: Right.

Brent: that one. Like, anyway, uh, I digress.

Jeff: but I do think she is, I mean, what, whatever she's doing, whether it's prophecy or whatever she is, she is trying to unite. The menari that have followed her, uh, under her banner. Maybe like, you know, in a way. So, because I, I think we've, we spec speculated last week about the warrior cast and how they're probably gonna become allies with the shadows, and maybe that's the darkness that's coming, you know, and, and whatever, you know, was, as I do the thing we just said not to do, but just clearly trying to unify them.

And I think it was cool the, to, to fast forward to the very last scene of the episode, which was Babylon five with the Menari cruisers, just circumnavigating the station. And it was this cool shot of like, they are, they're working in unity. It's a, uh, you know, multi-species thing coming together and really kind of all under Dalen and Sheridan is there too.

But Dalen is kind of becoming that figurehead, at least on the Minbar side. I mean, clearly on the Minbar side, but especially

Brent: Well, while we're talking about Dylan, since it was such a big part of the episode, let's talk about the, this ceremony. Um, and at least try to parse it out. So there's this ceremony of rebirth, the

Jeff: Sure

Brent: I, I think I, I spelled it correctly based off the, uh, subtitles. Um, this is an ceremony that is meant to you. You do this when

Jeff: you do it in a corporate retreat at a , at a park that ends in a trust fall. You know what I mean? I,

Brent: he said a trustful. Oh my gosh.

Jeff: because it, it, it's, I I, I get the concept right. You know, we're gonna reflect, we're gonna share, we're gonna find things in common. But also how does any of this, in any way, prepare anyone for a change or the future just.

I'm not, you know, I, I don't have all the puzzle pieces, but this doesn't add up.

Brent: I mean, if she was trying to lead them somewhere, You know, like, cuz cuz I was like, okay, she wants to invite Londo of all people. This is a, a shedding of, of the old things you, we've just broken away from Earth. These guys have to shed their earth stuff in order to be able to go forward. Londo has gotta shed whatever this crap is, this baggage he's been handling, which I really would love to see him do that cuz I want my Lando back.

Um, frankly, Kars already there.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: like Kars good. He doesn't need to be, if anyone, that he needs to be helping to lead this whole thing. Um, Marcus obviously has some stuff and I, his whole thing was probably the most moving out of all of them, uh, Marcus's. But I, yeah, I, I, I, I failed to see the

Jeff: at. Well, and you describing it, it just hit me, Mike. It's not, it's not a rebirth or a changing, it's festivus. It is just the airing of grievances. of fess is the whole thing. I, but I, I want to talk through some of the objections people had, and you

Brent: do it. Please. Yes.

Jeff: Kar, in my opinion, fully justified in, in him rejecting the invitation

Brent: he said

Jeff: because he said, we have a commitment.

We've made a commitment to protect this station, and we have to prove ourselves to Sheridan and to everyone else that the NANS can continue helping here. Even after everything's like he is carving out a role for the Nans in this new togetherness paradigm. Like he is laser focused on it,

Brent: I'm for it. I'm for it. Londo. Let's talk about Londo and his rejection. Cuz Londo was like, Hey, are we gonna have some drinks? We're gonna, oh no. We're gonna confess our deepest, darkest secrets. No, I'm not doing that. I'm

Jeff: it's so funny. He is like, I,

Brent: than you.

Jeff: I forget I'm talking to a

Brent: Right.

Jeff: but also I, I, I don't wanna say he's just, he's, he's more justified than I think you think on the surface, because in his mind he is taking steps to write what he feels are the wrongs that, well, that's not necessarily true cuz he never apologized for what he did. He just said we used them and we're good.

Now we have. Act differently, but he is trying to write the course.

Brent: I think he, I think you're right. He is trying to write the course, but he is also trying to, he is doing that to absolve himself of the guilt, which he clearly feels. And we saw that because it w the, it was almost as if, if you read between the lines, and this might've been me, I don't know about anybody else out there, but if you, if you watch that scene again, where Lando and Del are talking first of.

He's making fun of Dylan to her face, which is not okay, let's just say it. It it like the way he handled that was not okay. Also being surprised to be invited. He's like, you're inviting me after everything I've done, which is a really neat conversation about grace. You're gonna let me come do this given everything I've just done.

Are you crazy? No, I can't come do that. I've got this other stuff I gotta go do. And what happens is he winds up rejecting it for the same reason that most people reject grace. Right. Um, and I don't mean for this to get into a religious sounding conversation because I think you can plug this into just about any religion out there.

I'm not a world's expert on all religions out there, but I think this is about a sim. I think this is a similar experience across mankind. He feels so much. Over what he's done. He can't step into whatever that grace or that redemptive path or whatever that is, that brings him back to good. He can't do that because of his guilt.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Right. And when, when you watch, I, I found that a super compelling scene because Lon, it's like Lonnda wanted to, but he couldn't because he was so burdened by the guilt of what he's done. But the ironic thing is, is in doing that, that's what would allow him to release the guilt

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: move forward. And he just couldn't bring himself to do that.

And you know, I, I've heard that so many times now. I, I, I can't, I can't go to this place until I fix all of this stuff. And you're like, but going to that place is what allows you to fix that stuff. You know,

Jeff: it points back to, I think, what we talked about in point of no return and passing through Gethsemane. Like it's, it's li it's literally laundered over rejecting forgiveness or the opportunity for forgiveness, which is what he needs to do this stuff, because passing through Gethsemane showed us that he can be, and then point of no return showed us that he has to, you know, and he's, he's again, creating his own problem, but doing it in a way where I think also, like, I don't want to, I don't wanna minimize.

What his intent is with, for the Centai people, you know, and trying to redirect Morden and, or not Morden, but Refa, you know, and morden, like it's one, it's the right thing to do, like, you know, to, to cut off the relationship. And I think his intention in wanting to do it is good and pure. What's missing and what this ssus ceremony could add for him is, dude, you gotta acknowledge that this is all your fault.

like, we're here because you did

Brent: We all know. That's it. We all know.

Jeff: person knows Kar saw it in your brain. Like you need to go and you need to,

Brent: Get, right?

Jeff: need to fess it up and make it right and it'll suck, but you'll, it will get better. What you're trying to accomplish will happen then.

Brent: So let's, let's talk about, uh, Marcus, because that one I loved that that, uh, interaction that she had with Marcus, the idea that the thing he had to let go was his grief

Jeff: Well, and his

Brent: and his well survivor's guilt is what

Jeff: guilt for being alive. Yeah. What she say? Your guilt for being alive. Oh,

Brent: You have not forgiven yourself for being alive. You've let go of the people and the places and the things, but you've not let go of the pain. You're still holding onto the pain now. I mean, that's, I mean, where's Deanna? Troy? Like that is counseling right there.

Jeff: a hundred percent. Big time. And I think, but, and I think also the scene was elevated so much by their acting.

Brent: Yes,

Jeff: They're having, they're in, they're in this nice is a great set piece. You know, it was quiet. The lighting was, was low, it was intimate. They're getting real. And when it, when he kind of had enough and he is like, I, I have to go.

Like, you know, I, I, I need to let him know there was this pregnant pause that happened between them, and it was, it was just like, it was so obvious that he wanted to say more and she wanted Tim to say more, like, they're both just like,

Brent: right, right.

Jeff: but he didn't do it. He, again, he, he repeated the behavior and then he knew he did, you know, he caught himself for it where he is just like, I ran away again.

Brent: which is so similar to what Lando was just going through though, Jeff.

Jeff: Oh, wow.

Brent: You know what I'm saying? That's where I wanted to get like those two side by side juxtapose with each other. They're effectively going through the same thing, albeit different. They couldn't let go of their stuff to be able to, to join in.

And that's,

Jeff: It really is, and this is gonna tie to my closing thoughts, but it's the same thing and their reactions to it, right? There's the thing that happens and then there's how we react to it. And the way they are reacting to it is to hide,

Brent: So,

Jeff: and do what they think they need

Brent: so now let's compare those two reactions, because I'll give you Kar J like Kar is, Jaar is good. I got, I got his right. He could, he should have joined in just for camaraderie sake, but I, I'll give it to him. talk about the other ones who initially were resistant, but they wound up doing it.

Franklin comes in and says what we have all known, and they picked up a thread that I don't think they've touched on for several episodes. Now, I'm an addict, is effectively what he is. I've got a problem, right? And he turns around and walks away. Ava comes in, I think I love ta. I was surprised to hear her mention her name

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: I thought they were really trying to just sort of get that away.

Although this could be the last time we really ever hear her name like this could have been the I'm, because this was the, I'm letting it go.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: I, if Franklin never touched another pill from now to the end of of the series, having said, I think I have a problem, would you be satisfied with this being the answer for he let his addiction go

Jeff: No,

Brent: that's not how addiction

Jeff: minimize. Yeah. I think it's minimizes the disease. Totally. Yeah. I think, I think maybe in 1996, in 1996 maybe, maybe I'd be okay with it. But what we know about the disease now, I think it would be minimizing it and, and not, not

Brent: And I just, I just wanna be clear, I don't know if they ever bring up Franklin's addiction again after this point. I really have no idea. I'm just,

Jeff: My hope, like when he said that, you know, Kim in said, you know, I, I have a problem. My first reaction was like, Thelen doesn't know, you know, 1990s code for having a drug problem. She's like, yeah, you've got a problem. You're a jerk and an egomaniac. Like, we know that that's not, but I get it. It was, it was nineties code for stuff.

So what I hope happens from this is he, he said it, he put it out there, acknowledging you might have a problem is the first step. And so I hope this does put him on a path and I hope it could lead to some cool stuff with him. And Garabaldi.

Brent: Well, speaking of Gar Baldi, GU Baldi come in and said, I'm afraid now. I thought his was the weakest of all, all of the confessions. I've gotta be the security chief, but I'm always afraid of imposter syndrome or whatever it is. Like,

Jeff: Well, he said about what if he gets his emotions outta control. I, it's just totally like pulp fit. You know, I, I'm a race car and you know, you don't want a race car in the red, can't be in

Brent: He did. He did say of falling off the wagon, he's scared of falling off the wagon, basically. Basically that that's, that's what I took it as. Like he's really scared of what happens if he loses.

Jeff: Control that. Okay.

Brent: That I think

Jeff: I could see that.

Brent: you

Jeff: I could see that more. Cause I, I read it initially of just like, if I lose control of my emotions, man, I don't know what's gonna happen. Come on. Like, we all feel that way. That's not a secret.

Brent: And then Sheridan confesses his love, which

Jeff: Sort of,

Brent: sort of, but I, I loved how this scene was written for him. I have come to a spot where I can no longer picture my life without you in it. Like, I mean, Jeff, you're married. I'm married. Try saying that to your wife. Like that's, I mean, I don't, we've both been married for several years at, at this point and be like, what do you mean you can do that now?

You should have fund that a long time ago. Like, you know, uh, you young, young folk out there who are just getting into relationships. Write that one down. That's a good line. That's, that's a great line. Um,

Jeff: was, and, and again, Mira Furland and her acting was, I mean, her, I, as he said that her eyes, you know, like softened and perked up, which, you know what I mean? Cuz who, who's not gonna brighten up hearing someone say something like that, you know, it was, it was beautiful, it was touching, but just like the beautiful and touching scene with Sheridan and his dad say, I love you.

Say it. Just say the words, man. Just come on.

Brent: Yep. Yep.

Jeff: But it was great. That was

Brent: but you know what Sheridan did do is when Dylan got knifed, he tracked the dude down like a wild animal and punched the ever love and boop out of him.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: That was personal, not professional.

Jeff: No,

Brent: You know what I

Jeff: was hardcore and it was great.

Brent: And once again, you can just go beat people up on Babylon five and nobody cares.

Jeff: Oh, you're the ceo. Of course you can. I did love. We've talked in the past about how great the fight choreography is on Babylon five, but that was not the case in

Brent: Not this

Jeff: at all. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a little here just to tell me if you could dodge this he cocks and he holds it for like 14 seconds. Heard. Like who call? Are you ready here? Oh,

Brent: So for the folks out there listening to the audio who are like, what is, what's he doing? Jeff cocked his arm back and held it for like however many seconds that was. It was a long, it was awkward. It was long enough to get awkward. Uh, cuz we could see his armpit. So no. Cover it. Keep it, keep it covered, man.

We're good. We're

Jeff: All good?

Brent: We're good. Um, so that's really Dylan. The only other thing we had for Dylann was Lanier confesses his love for Dylann. And he's like, it's not a romantic love, as you would understand it, it's whatever. But then he says this line, but since she is faded for another and basically linear was like, I'm sorry Jeff, we're gonna have to get your bleep out for this one. This is not family friendly parents. Parents. I'm just, if you got kids, I'm gonna give you 3, 2, 1. Lanier's gonna cock block for the rest of his life.

Jeff: Right. He's like, you know what? I'm just gonna go ahead and be a third wheel. I am committing myself to be

Brent: Because I love her and I'm just gonna be this guy for the rest of my time here.

Jeff: it. I don't buy that. It's not romantic love.

Brent: Oh, absolutely not.

Jeff: yeah, he's, he's talk, you know, self-talk himself to that, you know, understanding. But he's, he is totally puppy dog, high school. Head over heels for

Brent: Now it may be more than just romantic love, but romantic love's a part of it. I mean, I, I don't know how your relationship is with your wife on this level, Jeff, but I would venture to say, I, I'm probably speaking truth here. I love my wife. That is a romantic love. But I also, I mean, my wife and I have been, I've been married 13 years.

I love her in more than just a romantic way. Like there are multiple types of love and I love her in all of those ways. And it is deeper than just romantic. It is all of that. And you know, if, if that's what Lanier is, is channeling here, you didn't marry her man like

Jeff: Right. Yeah.

Brent: and I'll say that. Oh, go ahead.

Jeff: I just, I just think that he has a book, you know, he reads all the time, you know, it's his thing. He has a book on French braiding and he just, he's dying for that moment where he can be like, Dylan, Dylan, I, I got some candles. , I got some romcom lined up on ne Netflix. Can I just braid your hair?

Brent: I play with your hair cuz I don't have any,

Jeff: exactly. This has gotta be so cool.

Brent: so I, the only other thing that this made me think of is, I remember once when I was dating a girl way back when, and we got to the spot where we broke up. We were doing the whole broke up thing. And I was about to say, you know, the cheesy sappy line that a lot of people say when they break up, there'll always be a small piece of my heart that loves you, or I'll always, you know, hold a place for you.

In my heart, I'm just, you know, like, like, you've been so special. You've been good. Like, it was a good relationship. I'll be wrong. It, it was good. It just wasn't the one, and it was, it was time to be done. And, and I was about to say, but I, I stopped myself because I said even then, I hadn't even met white, white wolf yet.

I said, even then, I was like, when I do get married, I don't want some part of my heart belonging to somebody else other than the person I'm actually with. Cuz she said, I mean, she rejected this. I'm not holding onto that. And I like, I kind of felt for Lanier in this moment, like, I don't know if Lanier's ever gonna find himself, uh, his own little bim. Wife or husband or whatever they are. Uh, I, I don't know. Maybe he will, but is he always gonna hold this thing for Dylan? Even to, in an other relationship, like, that's not cool, man.

Jeff: no.

Brent: Anyway, that was my own thing.

Jeff: Poor guy. Poor guy.

Brent: Should we talk about the, the, the night watch then?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: they're all supposed to be getting off the station, but you know, they seated for us last week, right?

That, uh, we gotta figure out the ones that we don't know about. Which, first of all, why are there night watch people that you didn't know about? Like, did the Night watch secretly have people, like they were trying, putting the, they were trying to show force, like, Hey, we're, you're gonna join the night watch, but don't tell anybody.

Okay. You're gonna be like our

Jeff: Yeah. Or something.

Brent: Like

Jeff: Yeah. Cuz it was a bit, literally the whole sales shtick was just wear this armband. Like, just be visible, you know, we'll pay you for that. And then these high profile, like people that people know, you know, I mean, Garabaldi recognized bogs. He recognized the, the, the, the very, very mentally ill person who, wow.

It's really disappointing to know that like in the 23rd century, our military personnel aren't gonna have any better access to mental healthcare. That is very, and I, I actually felt with dude I, I, the sniper guy who. Sang the, the Bones song. That was really weird. But, um, I, I felt that was very much a mid nineties reaction to Desert Storm and the awareness we had of P T S D at that time.

And, uh, because I think, you know, for me, I, you know, I was born in the late seventies. I was aware of Vietnam, but people coming back from Vietnam wasn't really a part of my life. People going to, and coming back from Desert Storm Desert Shield and Desert Storm was a part of my life. And we talked about P T S D, it was a thing and I kind of felt this guy was an example of that.

Someone who can't leave the war.

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: Cuz that was a thing for us. I mean, it still is like, we still have that now, but I think it was very upfront at that, at this, this time in the mid nineties.

Brent: Interesting. I had, I hadn't thought about that because I, I mean, I am, I am old enough to have, I very clearly remember before Desert Storm and I, I remember I, it was probably during the Desert Storm Desert Shield stuff of the, of the early nineties where I first learned about the way that we treated people coming back from Vietnam.

I was like, well,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: you know? And I, I was, I was a, a preteen early teenager. I was like, that's not cool. We shouldn't do that. We should, let's celebrate these guys. Cuz whether you agree with the war or not, we can still support the troops. Like, you know, um, but I mean, dude was just, the way he sang that song was so creepy.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: night. Did that take a long time?

Jeff: It took a long time and like you talked about the menari captains who were threatened with death to not talk all those night watch people had to stand there and just awkwardly watch him sing that

Brent: he sings, that's going. Yeah. You know, and dude with the I thing was just like, you know,

Jeff: He was great. I liked him a lot. I'm, I'm gonna say right now, he, we won't see him again. But I, I want to like, I want him to be the night watch force. I liked him because the thing is, he was mean, he was hardcore, he was gritty, but he also was competent. He believed in what he was going for, and he thought that there was a place to reason when they were getting to the end of the countdown for the Mbar cruisers to leave, he was just like, ju, why aren't, why aren't they doing this?

Don't you know we're serious? They gotta know. We're not, like, he didn't necessarily want to carry through and kill the hostages. He just wanted the outcome, you know. So like, not a bad, I mean, he is a bad guy, but like he's willing to kind of play by the dirty rules.

Brent: Yeah. Was that the point of this episode though was like, Hey, just because the wars happened, there's still people on the station that are loyal to the other guys, and now we've gotta get the rest of those guys off. Like I, I, I don't like start questioning the need for this episode. Yeah. 22 episodes. You gotta fill some in, you gotta put some chapters in that probably are not that overly consequential.

But I like, we got the new uniforms. There was a couple funerals, which great, but why, like, they didn't see that these guys were in the show. Like I said, if, if they would've said, Hey, they've got Secret Night Watch folks out there be on that one line from Garabaldi at the end of the last episode. If they had seated that maybe that'd be a thing.

And then this, that becomes a, a, an ongoing threat, right? Like who is Night Watch and who's not? Are the new people coming in secretly night watch or not like, like what do we, what do we got? Cuz Garibaldis gotta build up that security force again, right? Like you lost what, a third of them or something like that?

Or half of them, you know, think about, oh well he's got the norn, I guess so.

Jeff: And they're doing a great job. But yeah, I, I had the same thing. Like, to me, I, I , I thought the Londo and Refa stuff was a neat little, I mean, it was perfect too. It was a moment in the episode and it's, that's what it deserved and it's gonna be a thing later. Cool. Great. Um, the other big thing I got out of it was that Garabaldi is a Chief Warrant Officer.

I found that to be interesting, but, uh,

Brent: So Londo and Refa, I RFAs like, why should I, why should I take care of this? These are the people who are gonna make me the emperor one day.

Jeff: I was shocked this whole time. I, did you think, I thought this, did you think Refa just wanted to be the puppet master, or did you think he wanted to be emperor?

Brent: Uh, no, I think he wanted to be the puppet master. That was my interpretation.

Jeff: same.

Brent: he was like, no, he wants to be the impor. Like, I, I honestly thought he was, that's how Wado was gonna get on the throne, was he, wado was gonna be the puppet for

Jeff: Yep.

Brent: Um, and, and Refa was wanting to be that, that guy.

But, uh, I mean, REFA doesn't care. And, and Londo had a great line here. Your loyalty to our people should be greater than your ambition.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: talk about, Hey, let this show come out of 30 years in the past and smack us in the face today. There it is. Um, and then of course Londo poisons him using shit. I was trying to do a princess bride reference, whatever that poison was

Jeff: Um, IO

Brent: there. It's there.

Jeff: Is that right?

Brent: Clearly I cannot choose the guidelines in front of you or me.

Jeff: which is why I. That was great. I loved it too. He, he, why, why would you do this to me? Well, because I knew you'd do the same

Brent: Right.

Jeff: Like it's just a matter of time.

Brent: All right, so, and then Aldi's password is Peek Kaaboo, which was hilarious and was great. And you know what? He was absolutely right. No one would've guessed that password.

Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. I also thought it was cool. I, I didn't catch this one till the second, my second watch through on this. I, I don't know where Sheridan's comes from. Obsidian. That's pretty hardcore. Whatever. And then Ivan of us Griffin, and I was like, okay, that's a, that's a very specific thing. Her Star Fury helmet.

There's a Griffin on her Star Fury

Brent: Is it really?

Jeff: Yeah. Cuz when she was a, was a, I think it was in severed dreams, right? Where she was that when her, yeah. Point severed dreams that she went out and she had the Griffin on her helmet, which is not very good password hygiene by the way to, to wear it on your helmet.

But Garabaldi, he knows what's.

Brent: I am currently Googling John Sheridan, star Fury. I wanna see his helmets.

Jeff: He's got a tiger, I think on his,

Brent: He does have a tiger, but it's a black tiger.

Jeff: Ooh,

Brent: it'd be really cool if it was Dragon and then like, you know, a little nod to Game of Thrones Dragon Glass. I don't know when the first book was published, but whatever. Anyway, hey, uh, Jeff, um, I guess, I guess we only have one more thing really to talk about then, which I think was your favorite thing of the entire episode.

Jeff: Ah geez.

Brent: Hey, what? You got a problem for us? Huh? What's going on here?

Jeff: You're not eating enough. Look at you, your skin and bones.

Brent: pizzas, maybe some pasta. Rav, what are we doing all, all of a sudden I turned into Mario

Jeff: Well, that's the thing. What was it even supposed to be like? Was it Brooklyn? Was he Italian? Was it just a guy with an attitude?

Brent: New Yorker, whatever. You didn't like it, Jeff. I thought it was hilarious. I thought it was so funny. It was. It was the right comic relief that I needed for this episode.

Jeff: it was literally like, so we got this idea, we're gonna do a thing with the codes. Cause that makes sense. That's a this, but

Brent: It made no

Jeff: like two and a half

Brent: no sense, no sense whatsoever why this was the case, but I loved it anyway. I thought it was so funny.

Jeff: my theory, cuz I, I, I can't let this just be the garbage, the garbage storyline that it was. My theory is that there was one line where he says, yeah, this is a sub-routine. They shut it down. It popped up when we rebooted it, what? Subroutines popped up that we haven't discovered yet, or it's just a stupid storyline that was just to fill some time.

One of the two

Brent: somebody was having some fun. J m s was having some fun in an episode. Well, Jeff, with all of that, I think we have reached the part of the show where it is time to actually boil it down and maybe have a meaningful conversation here, Jeff, uh, a meaningful part, if not short, uh, to find out what part of this show, if any, is there a Star Trek quality to it?

Does it have a deep moral message in it? Is it holding up a mirror to society, giving us hope that things could be better in the future, even if we aren't there yet, but maybe we could get there? Uh, Jeff, you, my friend, are going to talk about the Star Trek Nest. Of this episode, rating it on a scale of zero to five Deltas.

I'll do the same, only on a scale of zero to five Star Furious as a, how much we enjoyed this episode. How Babylon Five. It was Jeff Yugo,

Jeff: So I can a hundred percent see this like as a Star Trek episode,

Brent: but is it, I'm sorry. Is it a Star Trek episode? That's not a very good Star Trek episode though.

Jeff: you are, you are totally trying to get to the end of the story at the beginning. Let me tell my story.

Brent: Sorry.

Jeff: Let's take out this succession stuff, right? All the Babylon five state stuff. You get Jordian data messing around with a computer. You get Troy being abducted by the monster or bad guy of the week, and Rikers trying to find, and Rescuer Wharf is trying to pull everybody together for some Klingon ceremony that the Klingons don't actually celebrate anymore.

Like this is totally a Star Trek episode with a message and that message can boil it. We talked about a couple of them, you know, earlier, but I think the message throughout this is actually a message of love. And we've talked about love through like a Star Trek and sci-fi lens before, but I think this one does a really good job of showing what love can do.

So like we saw Londo who had a love of his people and, and his and his, the, the ideals of, of the Centara. We saw a love of duty with the Babylon five crew and with Kar we saw a love of self, which we saw. The absence of In Marcus, we saw love in another linear towards Dalen. We saw the romantic love that both Sheridan and Irvana expressed.

And you can even add bogs in the night. Watch people to the love of duty. Peace as well. But we also had a love of harmony and for the universe as a whole, wrapped up in the rebirth ceremony. But love will make you do dumb, stupid, and crazy things, . So the message to me in this one isn't that there's love, right?

There is love and there's lots of different loves. Like we talked about. The message is what we let love do to us, right? Both Sheridan and his squad and bogs and his squad loved the same thing. They both love. But it's their take on that love that differs. And then what kind of ethics and morality do you have that you act on it?

Jim Rhone, who's an author, a business author and speaker, he died years ago, but he had this really great talk on, there's the thing that happens and then there's what, how you react to it. And he would say the same wind blows on us all where you go depends not on the wind, but on the set of your sail. So we have the same wind in this case.

People have love, but what do you do as a result of it? Right? And you can see that in Kar, like Kar is the shining example of that. He, his love for Nans has expanded to this really big place that we've seen over the last couple episodes to the universe, you know, as a whole has completely changed him. And he's living this life of service right now.

Rondo's love of his people on the other hand. Has caused him, his reaction has been to do absolutely horrific things and is now encouraging him to try and make those things a little bit better.

It's interesting though, that like , like you said, there's Star Trek episodes that are not very Star Trek e. Um, this is a two Delta episode. Like it's a good message. It's in there. I had to dig to get that hole. It's your reaction to it piece. But I think I, I think though, I think that a lot of, of the message through this one came through De Lens's desire, her love of harmony, her love of the universe to just bring people together. And like we've talked about many times, when you can bring people together, you can be vulnerable. You can just talk. Have a dialogue. That's where change happens.

That's where relationships are repaired and that's where growth can come from. And it was all, all brought about by her attempted reaction at Love that influenced at least the earth people to step up and do something,

Brent: Jeff, let me ask you a question.

Jeff: you know?

Brent: You came into this episode, this recording tonight, not really liking this episode at all. Not caring for it.

Jeff: at all.

Brent: After having our conversation that we've had and and diving through it, do you find yourself liking this episode anymore? Because I know sometimes that can change just even over the course of recording.

Do you find yourself appreciating it more or liking it anymore or are you still pretty much right where you were?

Jeff: I think I appreciate the message in it more. I still don't care for the.

Brent: Hmm. So when I first saw the episode, um, I said it was a letdown after the last three weeks in trying to think of how much we like this episode and assigning star furries to this episode. I really try to say if this was anywhere else in the season, not right after this last trilogy, would this episode be better?

Is it just being very mis served by what we've just come off? And I don't know that it is you know, this is not a pallet cleanser. I do appreciate this episode. having watched it again than I did my, in my very first initial reaction. All right. My initial reaction was, I think very much like yours. I did not care for this. There were parts of the show that I gravitated towards that I found, but I think it's because those particular parts related to me, there were things that I, Brent found a, a, a connecting point with. Right. Uh, but overall, this episode coming after these three, I mean, does it move the plot forward? Yeah. A little bit.

And they got some new uniforms. Woo. You know, , we could handle that in, uh, 30 seconds at the beginning of an episode. Hey, look, you like my new epi? My new, uh, actually, you know, the way DS nine handled the new epi, the new uniforms, they didn't even mention it. They, they just showed up one day.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: know,

Jeff: not fitting at all.

Brent: No cause well was Cisco was wearing Riker's uniform from the movie or something like that.

Uh, so you said yours is a two delta two outta five. I'm gonna give this one two star furries. And I think that might be being a little generous, but I'm gonna give it two cuz I don't think it's much more than that. I probably would've given it less had I not, um, had the other points to go through it. But I'm, I'm, I'll give it two.

Uh, you know, and you know, I'm just gonna brace myself for all the comments about how we just, you know, don't understand nuance and you know how much people think that this episode is just great coming after these last three because it had a funeral.

Jeff: It was a nice funeral and they wore the dress uniforms, which are the best of the year, the classic

Brent: Yeah. You know, I like those Earth Force uniforms. I thought they were, especially the dress uniforms. They look good man. And Sheridan. Sheridan wears it. Good man. He really does.

Jeff: He looks the part. Well, Brent, just like last season, we are creating the 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of the third season, this time of Babylon five, our top five currently. You're gonna recognize these from some recently viewed episodes we have in the first place, uh, severed dreams in the second point of no point of no return messages from earth passing through Gethsemane, and then matters of honor.

Rounding out the top five. Brent, where do you rank ceremonies of light and

Brent: It. It's not even gonna touch any of those five. So let's talk about the next five voices of authority, dusted dust a day in the Strife, convictions, and exogenesis. And my litmus test that I always use in this point is, given the choice between this episode and this other episode, which one would I wanna watch more?

So I'm gonna start at the bottom with Exogenesis. If I had a choice between exogenesis and ceremonies of light and dark, which one do I wanna watch more? And my answer is, Bugs. I would much rather see bugs before seeing dalin and funerals and whatever. So this is gonna be our new number 11. It's gonna take the last spot.

I will say what this is not though. This is not, uh, what was that episode last, last season? A distance star.

Jeff: Long,

Brent: The long dark where I said it's not just the last. I'm just gonna make it number 22 at the bottom and it's gonna live there. I I'm not gonna do that to this one. I'll let it be at number 11 and we'll see what happens over the coming weeks.

Jeff: Sounds good. I do not disagree in the least. Brent, that does it for ceremonies of light and dark. We like to play a game where we, we do, we like a lot of games here on Babylon five for the first time. We're gonna watch the next, the name of the next episode is Sikh Transi Vir, which is Latin Seek Transi

Brent: It's Latin.

Jeff: It's Latin. Yeah. Uh, it, it means I actually have it written out here. Uh, it means, uh, thus passes veer. I don't know what veer means in Latin.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: So our game we play is now Brent has heard the name of the episode for the very first time, and we're going to guess what the next episode is about, based on the title alone.

We know nothing else about this one. So, Brent, knowing Seek Transite Veer, it's the name of the next episode. What do you think it's gonna be about?

Brent: I feel like my, my sigh rating is gonna drop on this one. Um, I don't know. Uh, okay. I mean, veer is moving from place to place, uh, maybe in his ambassadorial role. maybe he's seeking new, maybe he's trying to help bring about new alliances for Babylon five, you know, like, like he. Almost he becomes Babylon Five's ambassador.

His ambassadorial role changes. Uh, or maybe he loses his Centara ambassadorial role on Menard. He's gotta come back to Babylon five. Or, I, I think it's su it's gonna be Veer and his ambassadorial role changing. And he's, I, is he gonna come back and serve Lando again? Like he was, I don't know about that, maybe, but I, I think, I think there's a change for him.

Maybe even a breaking from the Sonari government as a whole or something. I, I'm not entirely sure. That's, that's my guess is Veer ambassador role change. He's back on Babylon five because they wrote him off the show and then they just kept bringing him back episode after episode. So it's like he got like,

Jeff: veer. We're gonna

Brent: out?

Like, did his wife have a

Jeff: veer, we're gonna break

Brent: what it was?

Jeff: So we're gonna break up, get your stuff, move out. Also dinner tomorrow.

Brent: Right. I'll always have a spot in my heart for you, veer.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Forever. It'll be

Brent: always. How about you, Jeff? What do you think?

Jeff: so when a new, when a, when the Catholic church names a new. One of the first things that they announce, the white smoke comes out and then they announce Sikh transi Gloria Muni, which means thus passes the glory of the world.

Brent: okay.

Jeff: Sikh Transi veer Brent. I think Veer is gonna become emperor in this next episode.

Brent: Oh, you think, oh, no way. No

Jeff: mean, they're literally stealing the line of naming the new Pope

Brent: Uh,

Jeff: to, for this episode. J m s has not shied away from religion from Catholicism specifically. This is a very intentional use of, uh, of some church language

Brent: You know, Jeff, knowing what we know about j m s and his history with the church, the sheer amount of religious icon, icon, uh, that, uh, in language that has led us to those conversations, which I would almost never have in a podcast like this. Um, but he puts, he puts it in front of us. Like, I'm sorry, you're putting it right in front of me.

Jeff: exactly when we started doing this podcast, Hey bro, let's do a Babylon five podcast. Did you think we would be like having Dissertational conversations around the theology of the, like

Brent: around, around eschatology. No. I would have no, you know, uh, no, I'm, we're discussing pre-millennial, all millennial or post-millennial eschatology. What? And if you know what that is out there, high five. Um, if you don't, don't worry about it. It, cuz you know what? Prophecy is a bad predictor of the. Uh, here's the thing, if that happens though, Jeff,

Jeff: yeah, he's gonna,

Brent: there's, there's a, well, he has to because Lao's gotta get there.

Cuz we were just told that by major and I fully expect, fully expect Lando to ascend the emperor throne cuz we know that's gonna happen now and it's gonna be Lao's death. And then it, in, in my anticipation, it's, it ends with veer becoming the emperor and he leads them off into a new era. That's the way, that's the way I want.

And so if Veer goes ahead and becomes the emperor now that's gonna subvert all my expectations. And then I'm gonna live with this knowledge over the next bunch of seasons. He's gonna die at some point. And I don't want Vera to die. I like beer

Jeff: yeah. I, I didn't want to make this guess, but I mean, that is literally what the name of the episode is saying. Either he's either that or he's gonna be the next Kai. Right? Like he could be the next kid.

Brent: space, Pope

Jeff: Yep, exactly. You could be that. But you know, prophecy is a bad predictor of the future, but the future is a great predictor of the future, which means here, right here, next week, we're gonna actually find out what this episode is about.

Thank you everyone so much for joining us today. Don't forget to subscribe or follow us wherever you're listening or watching. And if you haven't already, pop over to Apple Podcast. Good pods, audible podcast chaser, wherever. Leave us a radio or review. We'll read it here on the podcasts. Until next

Brent: Hey, Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. What's up?

Brent: uh, I'm gonna need you to run some diagnostics for me,

Jeff: What? You got a broken arm or something? I got a podcast to produce here.

Brent: Jeff. No, no. We're, we're not ending like that. Um, hey, uh, how's that drink? You got over there? Is it good?

Jeff: here. It

Brent: Is it good? Yeah, take it. Go ahead and take another drink. Uhhuh.

Jeff: Oh, thanks for that. It's good. It's

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Itchy. All of a sudden

Brent: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: What

Brent: Hey folks. Peace, victory, and long life. Except for Jeff. Please go watch YouTube for this ending. Bit

Jeff: That's good.