Chrysalis | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast. Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5, for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and that changed absolutely everything. Now, we're watching this incredible series for the second time, with the lens of knowing what happens at the end, so we're going to catch all that stuff there's no way we could have possibly known the first time around. That's right. But don't worry, folks, we are still searching for those sci-fi messages. We know you guys are breathing a sigh of relief thinking we were going to drop that. Now, we're not dropping that at all. We're asking what this episode is trying to teach us. What was JMS actually saying at the time now that we can actually look at those notes and see what was going on?

[1:20] So, yeah, that's the things, you know, is there a message of hope that for the future? Is it that things could be better in the future? Is there a merit to society? How do we be better human beings to one another? That being said, because as Jeff said, we're looking for all the things that we might've missed the first time around. That does mean everything from this point forward, folks, is full of spoilers. Jeff and I are allowed to talk about anything from any point, anywhere in the franchise, any point in timeline, primary source material, extra source material. It's all a fair game. so if you've not watched this show first stop right now do not listen to this episode any further watch the series first join jeff and i on our first listen just go back in the feed it's right there for you it's in the same feed you don't have to go anywhere else and when you catch up back to the spot this is where you want because trust us you do not want to wade into spoilers if you have never seen the show this week Brent we're closing out season one of Babylon 5 with an episode called chrysalis first time we watched this one I remember actually being a little underwhelmed with with this episode kind of like oh that was an adequate season one ending.

[2:36] I liked the, uh, the end with Sinclair and Sakai and kind of the, nothing's going to be the same. Clearly we were setting the table for some big stuff to happen down the road, but I think my overall impression of the episode was, eh, all right. Decent season one finale. Do you remember what you thought about this one? Yeah. I think what you described is exactly pretty much what I remember thinking. I remember thinking that this episode did a lot, that it was a big pivot point for the season or the series. I mean, you know, it's, it's the narrative hook has finally happened or something of that nature i also remember while liking it that i was not as taken aback by it as i felt i should be you know like it's the season finale like like you know you and i we want what what happens the season finale is the big episode later on we would describe this as sort of jms's formula that like you get two episodes prior to the season finale and that's like your big huge wham episode and then the next episode is just kind of like meh and then the actual season finale is more than meh but not what it was two episodes ago but it's also focusing on sending us into the next season you know like like the big stuff happened really two episodes ago and this one is really setting the table for where we're.

[3:52] To come in this this episode as i look back i mean it starts it starts the trend that i think carries through in pretty much every single season and this one sets the blueprint for how that works and that's what i remember thinking about this episode so when i went back and listened to our first time episode on this one do you want to know what you actually thought i would love love to know what i actually thought your exact quote this was an adequate season one finale okay you're like yep a bunch of stuff happened i have a whole lot of questions on this prophecy thing and it was an adequate finale i uh thought the really similar i was satisfied with how things wrapped up and that they teed things up for the next season but thought it was it was it was a decent decent ending we talked about a little bit of other stuff we actually didn't have a lot on this one this was one of our shorter shorter uh conversations i wondered i i actually postulated a lot i'm like i think that vice president clark had a lot to do with Santiago getting killed.

[4:53] And then when we got to the point in the episode of Clark's acceptance speech, you were like, oh yes, yeah, I think he had something to do with it as well. Little did we know, right? We pulled out the red yarn a little bit and tried to connect a couple things. From all the background stuff, right, like the headlines in Universe Today and other things throughout the past episodes, we noticed that... Clark got off the ship at Io, which made us believe that he was somehow involved in the assassination, which tied to the Universe Today headline from Sky Full of Stars that read that Psycor was in trouble because they had endorsed Clark. And so we figured Psycor must be manipulating everything, and they're working hard to take over all of the Earth Alliance. Let me fit this up here. Right? It fits very well. You got one too, brother. It's, it's, this is, this is a shared co-crown here, right? We kind of nailed a lot. My, my just incredible quote, like this, this is almost as good as your quote in the intro. Okay. Clark's going to be a thing.

[6:05] Yeah. Stute. That's very astute there. I'm paying attention to these things. That's, that's like pro podcaster level commentary right there. He's going to be a thing. He's going to be a thing. You multiple, many, many times brought up full frontal Londo. Yeah, probably. You just couldn't get over it.

[6:28] You needed more processing time. You know, every month we hang out with our council chamber subscribers. It's a good time. And when we hung out for our May hangout, we asked a really loaded question. We were just like, hey, back when we were just doing this the first time around, what stuff really got you fired up and mad about us and uh yeah yeah i believe it was ron uh this is where a thing that he really hated a lot yeah was born where we decided that um we needed to kind of tease out the star trek like message okay and the babylon five how babylon five quality of things were just led to the two ratings definitely experts and had all the authority to declare that all the authority yeah yeah i mean good god but we didn't know how to do that and so we decided that the minbari had those blue arrow things on top of their heads oh yeah like ang from avatar the last airbender and so we were gonna rate it based on angs we actually gave this episode five officially this got five angs, and that was uh that was upsetting to some people yeah i wasn't that wasn't good no it was not good.

[7:47] I think i think we came up with a much better approach to how we what did we go we went oh we went star fairies yep star fairies that's such a natural thing totally yeah you know it's such a natural thing i love how that'll turn into white it's like it's a beautiful progression that happened listen i yeah i know a lot of people had a lot of problems with and look we.

[8:05] Were we were figuring it out as we went and the definitions of what each one were changed frequently right you know hey brad i would listen to the episode yeah you read the lurker's guide and looked at some other stuff what did jms have to say about this episode i'm gonna go ahead and get comfortable i imagine he had one or two get comfortable because we are 35 minutes into our recording people are like wait a minute but there's only like like 10 minutes on the clock yeah we talked a bit beforehand anyway um yeah there's quite a bit quite a bit some stuff i'm going to save during the episode but there's some fun stories here that i really want to want to highlight and point out jeff did you know that this episode was actually shot 12 out of the 22 episodes really they shot this one so early fascinating early because of the extension extensive post-production work that was required probably is a real good reason why when we watch this episode you know you and i have kind of noted michael o'hare's uh sickness illness getting getting worse it's not going to seem as bad right now right as we watch this particular episode because it was it was uh done a little bit earlier um but jms did talk about how he had to be really careful when he was writing other episodes to refer to things in the past tense that had not actually happened yet while they were doing this episode like they had to they had to really pay attention to track.

[9:33] That sort of stuff um this episode was first broadcast.

[9:36] In the uk now this is an important fact i want you to remember this okay it was first broadcast in the uk in.

[9:43] October of 1994 okay all right p10 did not want to air this episode in august which is typically.

[9:52] A low ratings month right which is when this would have aired so they held it back and they showed it the week before the first season two episode okay so they get to quality of mercy or whatever the air date was and then it stops for however long the the gap is.

[10:11] And then picks up with chrysalis and then moves up immediately into points of departure episode that one right there so a lot of people thought that this was actually the season two premiere and p10 actually advertised it as such really yeah fascinating yeah i thought i thought it was now jms really liked this episode now keep in mind this is an earlier so they hadn't done babylon squared yet they hadn't done in any of these others that uh but he said i would say that our two best so far are still a sky full of stars or in the sky full of stars and chrysalis and tko yeah he said i just watched a cut of chrysalis today which finally had all the cgi in it and i had to scrape my brain off the opposite wall it's that good he says okay that being said jeff.

[10:57] Listening to the way james talks about his episodes i have to imagine is a little bit similar to how you and i talk about listening to our own episodes he really seems to enjoy his own stuff he does he really enjoys his own work and i think it just makes you want to watch the show that much more it's nothing we were talking about it's excited his excitement makes you excited for it you know it's like you can tell he loves it so i want to love it too he says that this episode has probably the longest and most extensive setup slash payoff in sci-fi history television afterward once we discover what it is if you go back and suddenly realize there's a lot of different meaning in prior episodes okay jeff we're on the second run now that's what that's what this whole run has been about right as we understand the stuff in season one a whole lot more and in a different lens than than anything else can you think of anything i want to pause and ask this question can you think of anything that you thought it was one thing in the first time and now watching it a second time get here at the end of season one there's like nope actually it was it was not that it was this the thing think of anything the thing that i can think of and if it is the thing, I'm actually going to be really disappointed. But the multiple times that people told Garibaldi to watch his back, like –.

[12:10] If that's the big payoff that's that's lame i mean hey it's the one that a lot of people are excited for i know like i know a lot of people get excited about that one yeah now knowing how the folks on here and elsewhere meaning the internet at the time and knowing that they knew about laurel being a possible trader he figured everyone would assume that a vanaville would get that and sure enough a lot of people did because they knew that she was a possible trader and so of course it's going to be Ivanova so he wanted to make it somebody else and that's how it came to be Jack oh that's cool so now he was asked a question if he would tell the actors the story of their character like so you and I have often talked about like how much did Andre Andreas Katsoulis know about Jakar how much did Peter Jurczyk know about Londo's arc like where were they and he answers this question here I thought this was really fascinating he says I simply wouldn't do it if they would ask me where their individual character was going and some of them did what he would give them is just the general arc but he would leave out a lot of the specifics for example peter knows in general that his character is going to go in a darker direction.

[13:16] Well you're not know what that means now but he does not know how he's going to get there or what it means to the overall story okay and that's i think is how it should be yeah that makes sense yeah going this direction generally uh-huh you're going in this direction that's that's what's happening but you know and and frankly because Londo doesn't know what's going to happen next so neither should Peter yeah now here's a story buckle in oh oh speaking of Londo here's Londo's arc through the whole story here's how JMS describes it it's funny and light and then it's funny and dark and then it's dark and tragic and then it's tragic and light huh that's yeah that's kind of a circle there yeah yeah okay buckle in for this one and this is the last one I'll give you before we'll move on okay I'm going to read this exactly as he says it every so often a screw up takes place that's so breathtakingly stupid that it defies all logic and reason. Do I have your attention? I just learned of one this evening and I'm still reeling a bit from it. Consequently, this is addressed to anyone who will watch the satellite uplink of Chrysalis or has already seen it in the US in the last day or so.

[14:19] Once we deliver an episode, it goes to two places, Modern Video and CVC. CVC checks an episode of any series prior to the uplink to make sure that it's okay although they've had it for four months because remember how early it was made they only got around to checking it the day before the uplink during this they found a couple of small little audio pops you and i know what audio pops are right what's it take to take care of an audio pop jeff not much yeah yeah he's like it's the kind of thing that could have been fixed in about five minutes but since it was the evening modern video decided to fix it for us by rebuilding the entire episode what.

[15:00] Which means they had to have the negatives and stuff to, or the, the, the footage, right? Masters and yeah, without calling us, notifying us or checking with us when we could have easily had someone on hand there to, to supervise it at a moment's notice. Well, when they rebuilt the episode, they didn't use the correct footage. Some of what was used was raw footage. For example, when Londo goes to meet someone in the garden, they're supposed to be a great composite shot. They're of the interior of the garden area and a big hedge maze. You remember what that looks like?

[15:30] The uk version saw the uk saw this version of it last month but when the episode was rebuilt they used the raw footage segment showing londo and a partial hedge in the sound stage where you see the stage wall the pipes and the exit sign no composite nada we don't know yet what else has been included incorrectly because we won't even see a copy of it until tomorrow morning when it airs like oh my gosh suffice it to say that this is being taken care of our way overnight and the correct version will be sent out via satellite in time for the wednesday first airings in most markets and reruns in those markets where it's already aired at this moment i'm preternate preternaturally determined calm about all this having passed me on anger and account of having a zen state of consciousness utterly unable to wrap my brain about the absolute stupidity of something like this for more than two minutes at a time it's too much to handle it's the freaking season finale you're gonna rebuild the episode when they had months they send it to like some government like government agency to do it rebuilding the episode how first of all how do you have all the stuff to rebuild the episode to begin with yeah how do you have access to that how do you have the raw footage and you know this was some kid who just got out of college right and And they're like, yeah, just do this thing, just really quick. Yeah, just put it back together real quick. I don't know what to do.

[16:55] I don't know what to do. Oh, my God. I want to see that.

[17:00] Somebody, right? Yeah. Like, you do, don't you? Uh-huh. Like, so badly now. Because you're right. Some little kid that just got out of college worked all night on that thing. Uh-huh. Yeah. And to this day is like, you know, that episode almost didn't go out good, but I went ahead and... I fixed it for him. Yeah.

[17:15] You got a little Patrick Warburton sound to your voice there. Jeff, there are a few other things, but we're going to save them for the episode to talk about. Sounds good. With all of that, there's an incredible amount of backing information. There's more to come. Brent, what do you say we go watch Chrysalis? Please, let's go watch this episode. If you're joining us for the first time, hello and welcome. If you've been with us all along or have been with us for a while, so happy you're still here with us. What we're going to do right now is literally pull the episode up. Brent and I are going to watch it and you're going to watch us watch it and talk about it all together. If you're on our YouTube channel, you're going to hear kind of the cut up version. That's all edited for the honoring copyright and things like that. If you want the full, the unedited version of this, you can head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five, first the number five and the word first. And we post that up a week before it releases to everybody else. And Hey, listen, if you're joining us on the audio podcasting side of things, because this ultimately is a podcast, first and foremost, Jeff, you're going to hear the audio of the YouTube reaction, mostly because Jeff and I will actually have full conversations in the middle of that, and we don't want to rehash them later.

[18:30] We'll let you have it, and we think it's a better listen. So anyway, you guys will join us via that way. So you can at least keep up with us and hear what's happening and be sure to stick around after, because Jeff and I will have a bit more of an in-depth reaction. Plus Jeff, is it you or me? I don't remember whose turn it is this week. Your turn. It's my turn. I am going to place this and round out the 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of season one Babylon five for the second time. So Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. Just so it's hard. We take feedback well. These unprovoked attacks must stop. The attacks will stop when the Centauri government stops sending hostile ships across the border into non-space. I miss these two on screen together. Quadrant 37 is neutral. You know what's so, like, we knew they were so amazing just from this one season. We don't see them on screen together really much at all until season five.

[19:30] Gentlemen, please, this is getting us nowhere. This is the last time we see Goodman talk for a while, isn't it? Man, those eyes are red. I got nothing else, man. I got nothing. Alert medbay. Marcus, you're not supposed to be here yet. I was going to say, it kind of looks like it, doesn't it? You got to stop him. They're going to kill him. I mean, this show's way too... It also looks like that... What's that kid? Going to kill who? Scott. Petrov. Scott. Petrov. What's his name? He was in, like, all those stoner movies with, like, Jason Biggs and everybody. It was the dawn of the third age of mankind. Stifler's... Stifler. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever his name is. war the Babylon he's got three names he's got three names yeah yeah one of them is Scott I think his last name is the last one sorry by the time he got here he lost so much blood there was nothing we could do oh thanks for the compassion Dr Franklin right he's dead must have been something really big to make him come all this way hurting like that it was the last thing he said was they're going to kill him kill who I don't know but I'm gonna find out I think I immediately thought Kosh yeah.

[20:43] It's a great cut, though. It's like, I wonder who he was going to kill. Isn't that Douglas Netter? Is it? I think. Look, do you want to get married or don't you? Do you wanna? Yes. Such a charm. That's about the way my proposal went to my wife. Really? Yeah. So you wanna? July's better. Should we? When I proposed, it was quite elaborate. Do you want coffee? Oh, it would have been with you, pal. I had a piano player and everything. Oh, yeah, you did. Yeah. Yeah. How many gods do you think I must have offended to have ended up with Jakar's teeth buried so deeply in my throat that I can barely breathe? All of them? Sounds right. Think about what he just said. Yeah. It was teeth, not hands, but teeth buried so deep in my throat. That's how he kills him. With his hands. That's true. It would be quicker, and I suspect after a while I might even come to enjoy it. Is this where you get the nibbling to death by cats? This is like being nibbled to death by, what are those earth creatures called? Feathers, long bill, webbed feet. Go quack. Cats. Cats.

[21:54] So great. Cats. Like being nibbled to death by cats. That's so true. That's how it would go, too, you know? I'm sorry. He's very busy. Perhaps I can take a message. Wait, Veer. Let me see. Oh, look at that hair. Yes, invite him in. Trust the eyes. You have a problem, Ambassador. I believe I can help, but I think we should meet. I'll be there. I don't think either of us has cats, Texas. I know I do not. Who is that? Someone who did me a great favor. So this is where, so the great favor is the eye. He went and got the eye for him. Yeah. Did you see Ambassador Kosh? You never heard about it again. We just heard about it. That's it. Did you relay my question precisely? He becomes Emperor and we never heard about it again. Word, word, word.

[22:35] His reaction just one word he said yes that was the correct word delin's like oh my god this is gonna happen so well we had questions about this wait for me right jms says yes we will find out what delin asked kosh oh in time we'll find out what delin asked kosh yep we do here's the question was she asking are you what we think you are council chambers but you know what i don't know they say that in an episode i think you're right what did she ask so saying we did yeah we know that she needs reassurances is it that she's the one who's supposed to be in the chrysalis is she the one the one she's the one have the shadows returned to zaha doom that was the question so why does he have to take the thing off that's my whole thing what oh you mean oh that was the question he's got it he's got to save sheridan from falling no no he can fly we're gonna see him off screen taking that like her looking at him sans helmet we are gonna see that aren't we yeah so council chambers is keeping us on thing that the question that was asked was uh-huh.

[23:39] Have the shadows returned to zaha doom right and the answer was yes right although don't we find out later it's not really that they returned to zaha doom they were just like cicadas buried in the earth yeah they started to emerge again kind of woke up but they also like aren't they buried like kind of around the galaxy 2 on mars yeah like that like they're buried all over the place and it's like they kind of start waking up and i guess they're flocking back to zaha doom but zaha doom itself is like the hive yeah they've still got a bunch at least that's because and that's because that's where lorien was they wanted to be close to him exactly uh-huh oh it's this guy you remember this guy he does the he's a telepath he does the the telepath revolt thing later against pester and I knew Petrov. Oh my God.

[24:25] I don't think I realized we saw him this far back. Whatever he saw, whatever he knew, scared him half to death. And then he got stabbed the rest of the way. I like that this dude's in there, and I like that he didn't come across. There's the scene, think. But he doesn't come across as a telepath. He's just a lurker down below. Because he's doing his job. Like he's underground. Yeah, this would have been the scene. So there's like the partial hedge. And then instead of the stuff in the background, it's the soundstage wall. and stuff.

[24:54] Here you go yeah here it is gosh i have great doubts i must know if it's true i must see with my own eyes okay stop so the quote that we were told in council chambers who are joining us here is ducat says to the lynn in the movie in the beginning so cool way to wrap this around if you ever have doubts look into the face of a vorlon right she comes here and she says i have great doubts yeah then what she says is i need to see if it's true it's a little different so i think it's a look to see if it's true without the knowledge of in the beginning i think that we were on the right track of she needed to see him as him to make this next decision to chrysalis herself but when you add that bit of context what he's hearing is you have great doubt i'm going to show you that it's fine and reassure you and you will see it almost feels like it's a little bit of a retcon yeah that's what i was thinking too and it works mostly but it's still not awesome Yeah, that piece where she's, I need to see it with my own eyes, and it comes. This is where the first time around I was like, she's going to become a Vorlon. Is it true? Is this what waits me?

[26:05] She's going to go into this cocoon thing. We see her in the cocoon at the end. This is what she's about to turn into. Makes all the sense in the world, right? He's whipping it out and showing his head bone. See? I got a head bone still. I was one of you. Or, because we still didn't know what the Vorlon was at this point. We didn't know that he was the angel thing or whatever, right? He could have been, you know, because Jeff, by this point, I know I had certainly seen it. I'm sure you had. I'd seen pictures of Dylan with hair. Yeah. I didn't realize it was her at the time, but I'd seen the picture. Oh, I did. Oh, I knew that's exactly what it was. But people, I think also labeled it as Dylan. So in my head, what was in there was what she was, whatever she was about to become, you know, which to me honestly was, and I guess it's really what it was supposed to be the whole like hybrid of like i think that is that what i said did i say this at some point that basically the vorlon is like an amalgam hybrid of all the races yeah i think that's what we kind of and that's where the evolutionary thing kind of came from is like right you evolved to become that right so it's the head bone with the head fan hair and the marsupial pouch, and the opposable thumbs all in one package right.

[27:21] Yes, thank you, you know, Fabio just said this and I just heard it. Listen to the sound here and listen to what you hear. You're going to hear the wings. Remember, he has wings. Listen.

[27:33] Did you hear it? Those are definitely wings. Yeah. But he's not an angel to her. He's the goddess. Invari god thing. Whatever. Goodbye. You will not see me again. As she goes to the temple of with her dad. Let me hear that story. I think the Confessions of Lamentations. She gave him two Aang's. One to start, one to end. The Devereux? Security Chief Garibaldi. I'd like to ask you a few questions. I understand you. I wanted this guy to be something more than what he turned out to be. I hire a lot of people. I don't have time for this. Make time. Yeah, in the chat, Fabio gives us the name. Valeria is the Minbari god, goddess that showed. And then Andrew says that they all have wings. The Vorons and Worthout end at the end had the wings. I would counter and say they don't all have wings, but in this case, the deity that they are presenting as has wings. And so they have the wings. well because aren't we kind of assuming that the vorlon don't actually have a body they're like an energy thing and they appear as whatever deity that we see who's who's looking at it is which is a very relativistic thing which is an intriguing thought but still and it's very exhausting to do in front of other people but yeah we see that in the fight with olkesh lorianne sheridan and kosh the whole thing just this big energy thing that goes off into the thing yeah we still don't have an answer for how he got poisoned in The Gathering. Yeah. Doesn't make a lot of fun. Put your hand, what?

[29:00] I knew there was more of this Devereux guy than meets the eye. Oh? Only special agents in Earth Force security get unnumbered PPGs. This guy's name wasn't on file, and now he's gone. I don't like this, Jeff. I don't like this a lot. With a name like Devereux, he should be more of an ongoing concern than Deuce. Right? Permit of guard to base, nothing to report. Sector is...

[29:27] Battle crab, gigantic that thing is just taking out is it just the one no we got him attacking the planet, that was not good CG but it was cool just seeing them and their scope, this may be among the most threatening they've ever felt it's the second time we've seen them No, but that's, but I mean, yeah, still feel very ominous. That's the gold channel frequency for earth force one. Why would someone want to jam the president's? Oh my God. Garibald, Mr. Sinclair. He's going to kill. Commander, we've got a problem. Ultraviolet priority. Meet me in the briefing room in 20 minutes. This is blue alpha. Standby. You can tell he's bad because his voice went like that. Right. I told you not to poke around in things that are too big for you. Yeah, well, it's a little late for that. Now up against the wall. I think not. No, Garibaldi! Oh, no. He didn't watch his back. Nameless character did a thing. You gotta listen to Walker Smith, man. What'd you get for skipping TKO? Yeah, with that shot at this point watching this, he's dead. There's no coming back. I thought I checked my quarters in case Garibaldi doubled back. The only good news is it's not a knife wound. I don't like it. Exactly. The only true way to die.

[30:56] I believe you recognize this that's pretty darn traumatic hey remember this, it glows yes see now i know what i'm looking at you remember what first time around i still had no idea what i was looking at you remember being taken aboard our ship only a little it feels like she's about to like activate some hidden i don't know what it all means implantation in his brain or something we have a lot to discuss commander yeah she sounds it feels very evil i'm putting both our lives at risk there are things you should know.

[31:28] Not such a happy new year for this one are you sure there's no other way hey there's the thing she's been supposedly building this whole time that happen i she's just placing that stuff together like this day would come this is supposed to be some sort of machine or something it's not a machine it's just a structure looks like something our kids would build for fun but what if you're wrong it's like what do you do when you have a lego without the instructions They're all different colors, mismatched. I was going to say, in this case, it's prison tiles. Speak well of me when I'm gone. She's really worried. I really appreciate the intensity right here, because she doesn't know. This is uncharted territory, right? It's just like blind belief in the prophecy at this point. There's that little shred of doubt, almost. If it comes, it must be soon. Couldn't she have waited 15 minutes before plopping the thing in there? Blood pressure 60 over 10. You know, I will say, I am surprised at how long they let this storyline play out. Yeah. Yeah, Andrew. This is only 42 minutes long. She doesn't have five minutes.

[32:37] I really like Dr. Franklin in emergency medicine. Like, Stephen Biggs just does an awesome job. into position silhouetted against the surface of jupiter there it is soundtrack's working hard right now this is good president was scheduled to begin his new year's day speech 10 minutes ago, so far there's been no word from earth force because president's dead picking up an emergency signal now.

[33:02] Music.

[33:09] Are we still in the air shut it off so this aired in late 1994 yeah october 4th 1994 so when we think back like that sits in the middle close to the middle between the assassination of jfk which is going to get sort of played out you know here visually in a little bit okay and 9-11 okay and i feel like it's far enough separated from jfk that it's like it it rings the memory but it doesn't like tug on the the you know on like the heartstrings and the memory okay we didn't know 9-11 was coming right i feel like today now um.

[33:55] That scene plays so much differently. And Andrew in the chat, like calls out Claudia's acting as Ivanova in there. I agree. Like, I believe the people in that scene were old enough to have been children when JFK was assassinated. But the way the ISN reporter responded, the way people were just kind of stunned and sitting there, that rang the morning of 9-11 to me. Sure. just that like oh my god did this happen you know and just the tears the unbelief it's just interesting to me how that's placed between two big tragedies and i and i and i imagine that when this played out in 94 it was like oh wow that sure sucks whereas like it really hit a thing for me now oh when here i was gonna marry you what's literally you're crying about right now he really was like that's what he's crying about right now i think that i think that right there is the moment he fell in love with her you think so that's an interesting theory go jeff talk about it yeah so like the courage that so right now she's played a mentor role she's been the ducat to delen delen to linear sort of a thing sure but in this moment she is giving herself to the prophecy and believing full well that she could not emerge right like this could be it so i think Like her courage, her belief.

[35:23] Everything that he's been trained and taught his whole life, she's actually like doing the thing. I think this is where he falls in love with her. All right. So here's my question. Does she know what the Triluminary is going to do to her? I don't think so. Okay. How does she know to build this little device thing that activates the Triluminary? Because really, it just looks like a stand for the Triluminary. It doesn't look like anything else. But, you know, I'll suspend my disbelief on that. Right. But. The prophecy. That's how. I don't know. Right. Yeah, I don't know. I really want to know what she thinks is about to happen. So what was the prophecy? Remind me. There's one who will bring balance to the force. Exactly. Yes. Okay.

[36:00] And she believes she's the one or she's going to make it. She be the one because she's going to be the one to go do it. She's going to sacrifice herself almost in a way that Dukat. Could you really, is it really fair to say Dukat sacrificed himself? Dukat was out front. He was out front leading. Yeah. He led. I don't think he sacrificed. He played the role of leader. Yeah. I think this is a thing when we play this back to her saying that the calling of her heart was to serve on Babylon 5, right? And that changed the game. Was she not telling the whole truth? Like Reth then might have known the whole truth. The calling of her heart was to explore and try to fulfill the prophecy. Sure. But what she said to the great council was, you know, the calling of my heart, I mean, it wasn't entirely dishonest because it is there. It's happening on Babylon 5. I think that it's, I don't think that she knows what she's going to become. I think what she knows, What she believes from the prophecy is this is a thing that has to happen to help the Minbari society grow, right? Because if we think about it in terms like Sinclair wrote this prophecy, he came up with it. And so he's like, hey, so you have to build this tower and then plop this little rebuilt link on top of it. And then something will happen, something prophetical. Prophetical?

[37:24] Yeah. Is that a word? Sure. I don't see why not. All right. My condolences on the death of your president. This has been a black day for both of us, Lieutenant Commander Ivanova. Scarlett looks like he's about to get ready to whack in the head. We will find whoever is responsible for the destruction of our base, and we will retaliate. I think of all the loss in this transport. I wish you luck in your own quest for justice. May the guilty be found and punished.

[37:50] Punished or have justice served? What have you done? Only what you asked me to do. You had a problem with Quadrant 37? We took care of it for you. You said you had a problem? Yo, I'll solve it. I didn't know you cared. Check out the hook why Vera revolves around. $10,000,000, $2,000,000, a million. What's the difference, Ambassador? Your name is being spoken at the highest levels of the Centauri government. So he would have filmed this shortly before filming Signs of Importance. Signs of Importance. Or at least right around the same time. They noticed you, Ambassador. I'm Morgan William Clark. So this right here, they intentionally recreated the Lyndon Johnson photograph. We will begin by focusing more on the needs of our own people to sustain them through this difficult time. Isn't that exactly what he didn't want to have had to say? Uh-huh.

[38:41] Right? He knows what's up. Like, you have forgotten. What is it? What is the it? Right now, in this episode, in two things, the Shadow War began. The attack on quadrant 37, sector 37, and the death of Luis Santiago. It has begun.

[39:02] What do you think? And so it began. Okay. So let's think about what Kosh knew right now, right? Right. Kosh knows that every so often the shadows wake up and they start sowing their discord. And he knows they're awake. He knows that they're up and he knows they're awake. So he knows there's another coming war. Right. He knows they've been building power. He knows they've been gaining influence in other places. He also went through the whole process with Valen. Right. Because this Kosh went back in time. Right. I think so. And if he doesn't, even if he doesn't, they're all kosh so he's going to know they know he knows okay so he knows from the moment he stepped on babylon 5 and he saw sinclair you and i are going to go back in time and we're going to fix that other war well he was the one that in the re shoot of or the re dub of the gathering said yeah yeah so is it the loop begins now because this is going to send sinclair to minbar which is going to result in all the stuff and it's going to result in coming back for Babylon for and to go back to the beginning and now in a time loop is it setting off a time loop is it this next shadow earth or the next shadow of Orlan war that the earthlings are now going to be a part of me I can see that it is the thing kind of starts the cycle but I think Kosh is focused on the war yeah I think.

[40:28] I don't know, I don't know that he is as keyed in on the loop sort of a thing. I don't know that he's as involved, you know, we don't know a lot about Vorlon society. We get exposed to two of them, you know, but like, I think it's a thing that he's aware of, knows, you know, or something, but I don't know that he, I don't know that, I don't think he's like instrumental in it. So I think he's thinking more linear time in that there was a war, we've been at peace and now the war is beginning. Mm-hmm so that it so it begins we're saying is the shadow of world on war yeah that culminates when sheridan screams in both their faces saying get the hell out of our galaxy exactly now let's form communities got it yeah to land he's like oh yeah she told me a thing so he and delin are supposed to wind up together though in in a version of the initial pitch yeah but here he is with with It's Carolyn Sakai, right? Catherine Sakai. You're too late. So maybe he and Catherine Ever were going to get together. Uh-oh. A literal cocoon, Jeff. I believe that's what I said last time. Yeah, it looks kind of ridiculous. A literal cocoon. It flashed a big bright light and then wove a web around her. A chrysalis. She is changing. Into what? I don't know.

[41:52] I don't know that D'Linda she didn't change into. She didn't. No, I'm pretty sure she did not.

[41:58] Uh-oh, here we go. The shadow's going invisible. I think he's ready. It's perfect for our needs. And the time is right. Ambassador Malari will do exactly as we wish. Some bad juju right there, man. It's interesting because you can tell, you can say they have the general outline of what the shadows look like, but I feel like maybe he hadn't quite figured out what they were going to look like. Ness is like the, the, the, the turtle shadows or something. Speaking of Lord of the Rings, it's like in the fellowship of the ring movie when they weren't quite sure what Gollum was going to look like. So they had them all in shadow. Yeah. And by the time we actually see him in real life, like kind of looks like it, but kind of not, it kind of does, but kind of not. So. Nothing's the same anymore. Standing between the darkness and the light. So he's got a little triangle thing going on with his little candle thing. Mm-hmm.

[42:54] Oh

[42:58] All right brent well that's it season one has come to a close we just watched chrysalis for the second time what do you got this was an adequate season finale i know i think of the same thing i'm like yep some stuff happened it was all right yeah it's it clearly sets us up this is all about setting up for where we're going next that's all this is so they needed super heavy effects on this one that that forced them to film it.

[43:26] In episode 12 slot okay a couple composite shots well i think the shadows they had to create like this was okay you know we had somewhat scenes of the shadows and signs and portents but like we saw them in action and from a distance and yeah i don't i you know because we know jms watches every single episode hey what's going on joe um i feel like i'm disappointing him right now yeah because like i'm not like blown away by this episode now like it was fine it was a season finale at like it was it was like adequate sounds so poor but it was like it was it was a fine season finale it was not babylon squared it's not even in the same ballpark as babylon squared to me you know but yeah the narn getting blown up really good the shadows with morden that's fair that's fair guys um i think this is a great episode for a second watch though yes uh-huh because there's so many little things that you're like well wait what was that wait we know what this is now but what was that where are they why is linear crying i think that's actually a really interesting question why is linear crying.

[44:31] Is he like, is this where he falls in love with the Lynn? That's an interesting thought, Jeff. It's so interesting because when we watched this the first time, we were in the same spot as Lanier. What's happening? What is going on? He has some religious teaching and backing to him. We're like, what the heck is going on? We now know what's going to happen. And I think that we, I see that whole thing differently, knowing, knowing where it's going to go and understanding the prophecy a little bit more. And the prophecy, I think, and I could be wrong, but I think the prophecy is whatever the plot needs it to be. Sure. Because there's always, what's the prophecy? Oh, it's the prophecy. It's the prophecy. Which is most prophecy, right? Sure. Sure. I'll tell you what I loved about this, though, on top of that. Which you loved. Yeah. This was a 42-minute long episode. Felt like a 42-minute long episode. Really? It felt longer to me. I thought it felt like it was great. It's paced really well. And it had so much in it. It did have a lot in it there's a lot going on in this episode it didn't i don't think it felt crammed you know or anything it felt it breathed if anything there were some parts that were like okay okay get there but it never got rushed i love the space that they gave uh the santiago assassination and then following that up with that one scene that i never clicked for me in the first watch, but when Ivanova is in the tube with Natath and Jakar.

[46:01] She's still broken. Like you can still see it on her face, but then to think of just the, the level, the intensity of the loss that is being experienced in that tube at that moment, it's, it's overwhelming. I think there was some real brilliance to how this episode was constructed and performed. Did you get any more message wise out of this one? I like this line. I'm trying to remember who said it. I think, I think this was a Jakar line. He says, we stand at a crossroads.

[46:30] Who said this? Was this Jakar? Sinclair. Talking to Natoth. It was Sinclair to Jakar. That's what it was. We stand at a crossroads. And basically he said, and we still have a chance to make a better choice. We haven't crossed it yet. We're at the crossroads. We still have a chance to make a better choice is effectively what he was saying. I didn't get the exact quote. Jeff, you know when the right time is to do the right thing? The time. Right now. That moment. Right now. Yeah. This is the right time. It reminds me of a phrase that we say back where, where I come from. If you ain't dead, you ain't done. Oh, there you go. Yeah. You know, it's never too late to make a better choice. Exactly. You stand at the crossroads, make a better choice. Now, what did we watch happen in this episode? Not great. Morden and Londo, right? There's Morden said, just tell them that it was all you tell them. That's all you don't worry about what's getting ready to happen. Tell them it's all you. And when Londo finds out and he loses his mind, he's like, what are you doing? What are you doing and he's like just just chill just chill and what does morden say after that because londo doesn't make the right choice morden says he's gonna do exactly what we want and he's gone and he suspects nothing nothing the lynn has doubts she's at a crossroads in this episode right is she gonna do this is she not gonna do this, Is she going to do it? Is she not? And she gets to a spot where she has to do it. Yeah. We stand at a crossroads and you still have a chance to make a better choice.

[47:59] Basically, I'd say, make the better choice. Make the better choice. And if you have a chance to make a choice, make the better choice. How about you, Jeff? Did you get anything out of this one? I got the opposite of a message, right? Where, I mean, there's a message in it, but the way it was, as the line Londo said, there comes a time when you look in the mirror and see that that is who you are and you will be nothing more you accept it or kill yourself what yeah oh my god no no like my counterpoint to that line is virkato yeah that guy at no point looked at himself and said that's all i'll be he he looked at himself and said i can't believe that i am who i have become i don't like what i am becoming but he never stopped like growing and learning and changing and in a real way babylon five is the story of londo malari right we've talked about that we've talked about that people have talked to us about it commenters our council chambers have all said it yeah but the hero of babylon five is veer he is the story of hope londo is the tragic hero.

[49:04] Lanier is the hopeful hopeful hero yeah yeah i like it and i think that in this londo saying that and then veer living it differently uh from from a story standpoint that shows that it shows that hey we're both you know heroes in this different way but from a messages standpoint it says you look in the mirror and you can still see who you can be not that this is all i will ever be right right i like that well this is going to be it brent uh you've got i hope your shoulders are feeling properly weighted jeff we have a we have a very important question oh we do we have to answer very important question ben over in our council chamber says was getting shot in the back part of garibaldi's secret mission yes it must have been and i was so convinced that there was something really super important about that i can't wait to rewatch too it wasn't just me absolutely it was it was both of us and i i know i took the brunt of it because golden child boy over there right totally but oh my gosh it's another thing like he said 100 he's there hey i got a secret mission for you and then the shadow of the shadow comes over garibaldi he's like all right here we go because he expected it he was doing that as part of the secret mission right that'll happen here in about a year and a half folks we'll get there yeah right at this pace uh brent we gotta round out our season one ranking and it falls.

[50:28] On you yeah as i look at this i am It is our tradition to recite the top five books.

[50:39] Three episodes. And I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure that that is the correct read for this one as where you're going to place it. That said, that is what I'm going to go ahead and read off for this. And then you can obviously place where you want. Right now our number five episode is In the Sky Full of Stars. Number four, The War Prayer. Three is Death Walker. Pretty interesting. The bottom three of the top five are very early season one episodes. Yeah, they are. Episode in second place is Signs and Portents. And number one, Babylon Squared. I will go ahead and I will prophesy that Babylon Squared will still be number one at the end of this ranking. But I could be wrong. Brent, where are you putting Chrysalis? Jeff, just for the sake of discussion, I am curious. Well, first of all, we have 22 episodes a season, right? Generally, but we did Voice in the Wilderness Parts 1 and 2 as one. All right. Thank you for that because I was trying to figure out where that got. Um where did this one fall in the first round this was our number five right above a voice in the wilderness part two and right below tko i like how you say that was such a such a grin on your face i love it um you know honestly jeff it's in that same zone it's in that same zone like like i'm looking down here believers and what an incredible episode that it tackles right tko.

[52:03] Incredible episode of stuff that it goes and it's generally considered one of the worst episodes of the series and it's amazing it really is it's really amazing well to be fair to be fair i think it's amazing it is a good episode by any means necessary parliament of dreams quality of mercy born to the purple midtown firing line all really really strong episodes you know and then we start getting into legacies and eyes and mind war which is the best episode but still you know infection and in soul hunter both got a bit of a glow up yeah absolutely grail got a glow down and survivor stayed right in its very deserved spot but yeah when i when i look at this though i do see a big gap i see a gap between a voice in the wilderness parts one and two at number six.

[52:47] And believers at number seven okay that is a tier changing slot between the two so the question is is this is going to find its way into the top seven now six okay but the question is where is it babylon squared it's not even close is it signs important it's not even close is it better than death walker oh that's a really good episode it is the war prayer is a really really strong episode sky full of i mean all of these are just so strong and even voice in the wilderness man is a good two-parter yeah yeah but i think when i look at it this one falls above a voice in the wilderness okay i don't know that it goes above in the sky full of stars really that's where i'm looking at this i'm looking at this as our new number six it could go i don't think it's going to top war prayer so the question is is it over under sky full of stars jeff i'll give you a chance if you would like to stump for something just understand it won't impact my rating it's just i'm going to give you a chance to speak on it while i mull it over my my thought on it and we've brought this up a handful of times in this in this second watch of there's the handful of episodes that you have to watch in season one right to for those who have make the foolish decision to skip over season one because we've said it before i will say it again babylon five season one is one one of the best season ones of 90s sci-fi absolutely i mean.

[54:15] It's it is it is fantastic yeah but when i think of episodes you have to watch.

[54:21] This is one of them death walker is not one of them i think the war prayer is one of them.

[54:30] Yeah i brent think that this actually belongs in our ranking in the number three position because this is a necessary episode it is a well crafted and executed episode and it not only pays off things that happened in the first season it still beautifully sets up things that happen in seasons two three four and five i hate you good, finally i hate you so much you want to know why i hate you i'm so wrong well you know because i do this thing where like i'm i'm walking down this path and kind of like the way jms set stuff up like he's going to go down this path but he knows where he's going to veer off later i knew in this whole conversation exactly where i was going to veer off later yeah because i i think this is our new number three i really do it's a it's a good episode yeah it's a good episode is it it like i said the word adequate like it's a good episode you should watch this episode it's got to be there it is it is an essential episode of the top three those are the three you gotta watch right you can do without any of the others could including tko you could do without any of them and you would be fine moving forward this is an this is this is an an integral episode integral and good like i want to be clear and i don't want and i want to build riff on the adequate thing we didn't say adequate episode no we.

[55:57] Said adequate finale i wish it would have been i i honestly wish that that babylon squared would have been the finale because that's the bam the wham episode as we always hear jms talk about it right um i think signs importance was executed uh not even i would rather watch signs importance before i watch this episode again right now this may be just a little bit of recency bias but from a production standpoint from a storytelling standpoint from where they've gone with this episode i mean the entirety of season one led to this episode how many times do we see delin building that dang machine yeah so often you know like they in fact they filmed this one and then led to this one yeah like yeah it's where it's gotta go and and you know fabio says that number one is signs importance two is chrysalis and three is babylon squared fabio is now fired because you're not going to beat babylon squared out of season one i love you fabio but you're not you're just not going to beat season one we could talk about it in council chambers next time um it's uh yeah i think this is our where did we say that we placed this in the first round it was uh number five in the first round what was four and what was our top five uh chrysalis tko war prayer death walker babylon squared okay tko was your own personal thing um war.

[57:20] Prayers war prayer still in our top five well if we go up right because it was the top three was war prayer death walker babylon squared yeah all we've done is thrown chrysalis and signs and portents into that mix the top you know the top five is three of five there yeah made it across Yeah, this is our new number three, Jeff. It really is. Like...

[57:43] It's good war prayer is so good too oh my gosh so many of them are so good i mean seriously the top 15 episodes out of the season are really good episodes i i so good i just said it but i just want to stay it again because like it needs to be screamed to the universe do not skip any episodes from season one of babylon five it is an excellent season it's not seasons two through five where episode leads to episode where things but every single one has a level of importance every single one is entertaining even survivors has redeeming qualities sure if i think long enough i'll come up with them but they're all worth watching every single one it's a great first season and it actually really upsets me that it gets the oh you probably only need to watch three or four no you don't You need to watch all 22 episodes. I mean, Nia says accept infection and yeah, no. Yeah. Watch infection.

[58:44] I despise infection and it needs to be watched. I'm telling you, man, it's that 27 minute mark and we vetted it out again. This watch. Exactly. You hit the mark and it was bad. That, that, that episode takes off. It's just that first 27 minutes is, you know, and even, yeah, Suzanne, even soul hunter. Like it's awful. It is, it is awful. but it's important and it's actually it's actually okay like soul hunter had a glow up on this on this run it did you know so i don't know i don't know so brent that's it for season one and chrysalis uh-huh little side conversation here are we gonna do the thing that we talked about doing next or do we want to move right into season two no i think we should do the thing we did next i think that's i think we need to lock that in that is absolutely the right call before we do that been a request and i'll read it off request that's a right request on the video this will be this has been displayed on here but for our podcast listeners specifically we're going to read the entire top 21 and again this is the when we uh when we did this the first time around it was a top 23 because we included the gathering we watched voice in the wilderness as two separate episodes this time we put them together and didn't rank the gathering in here so it's a top 21 So starting in 21 is Survivors, then Grail, Soul Hunter, Infection, Mind War, Eyes, Legacies, Midnight on the Firing Line, Born to the Purple.

[1:00:10] Quality of Mercy, and Parliament of Dreams. We enter now our top 10 in 10th place by any means necessary. 9th TKO.

[1:00:21] Believers a voice in the wilderness parts one and two and the sky full of stars the war prayer death walker chrysalis signs and portents babylon squared that's a solid ranking it's a solid ranking it you know rankings are always hard because you always like get that episode oh i can't believe that episode was so low and you're like listen just remember just because it's down lower it doesn't mean that it was bad or that we didn't like it it's just in a ranking it has to go in in certain order and the other ones were or better you know like oh that's way too low it can't be that low yeah it can be you know just because the others were up there hey you know but you got to play the game here's the thing if you're gonna say that okay if you're if you're gonna i see i see i already see it over in the chat if you're gonna say if you're gonna comment And I want to encourage all of you out there at YouTube and Patreon or any audio podcasting, email us, tweet us, smoke signals, whatever you can do to get in touch with us.

[1:01:25] Let us know how you would re-rank this season. But if you're going to do it, if you're going to complain about an episode not being ranked higher, play the game and tell us where you would move it to and what changes you would do. Like do the actual work, do the exercise and let us know. For the video, so if you're listening to this on a podcasting app, I'm going to tell you, you need to go to the video here. I'm going to put up some graphics showing the first time ranking against the second time ranking and note on that any substantial changes. But being that we just did this, I'm not going to sit here and put it together and do an analysis while people are watching us do it. So I'll have, as I'm saying this and apologizing for doing the thing, there'll be a graphic over here and it'll have all the cool stuff that you wanted to know about it. Cool. Jeff, I have a question. Yeah. What are we doing next week? Next week, Brent, we're doing something we've never done before.

[1:02:23] What? Yeah. But this isn't Babylon 5 for the first time. This is Babylon 5 for the first time on Babylon 5 for the second time. This is going to be Babylon 5 for the never before time. What? What does that mean? We're not going to be talking about an episode of Babylon 5. We're not going to be talking about a movie. We're not going to be talking about a book. What? We, due to the unbelievable generosity of our listeners and viewers. We have the best people out there. It's amazing. And I genuinely mean that. We have the best folks out there who have surrounded us and been a part of this community. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. We were gifted with the scripts of Babylon 5, including the very special volume 15. What is volume 15? If you know, you know.

[1:03:22] If you don't, we don't talk about it. Well, we're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about it right here next week. Okay. In volume 15, among other things, it has in it the treatment that John... Wow. John? It has in it. I was thinking John Sheridan. It has in it the treatment that JMS wrote and pitched to Michael O'Hare to convince him to take the role. The original pitch, an idea behind the Babylon series.

[1:03:53] Because there was going to be a Babylon 5. There was going to be a Babylon Prime. And Brent, we're going to break it down and talk all about what could have been. The original plan. I like it. It's going to be exciting. We're going to do that right here next week with all of you. And after that, we'll dive into season two. I'm excited. And so with that, please like, please subscribe, please comment, email. We love interacting. Brent just said we have the best, right? Our community is incredible. You're, if you're listening to this, If you're watching this, you are a part of that community. Get active with us, right? We have an incredible Discord over on our Patreon. Again, it's patreon.com slash Babylon5first. Get in on the conversations. I mean, there's cool stuff. We have our council chambers tier with us right now at this moment that are a part of this episode with us. It's incredible. Join us. It'd be great. I'd love to have you as a part of our community. If you're not in a position to support us financially and be a part of that kind of community thing.

[1:05:02] Thing you can do that'll help us out a ton and really mean a bunch is share this episode and other episodes with other fans of babylon 5 or people who love sci-fi or all of those really cool things that we all love so brent i'm going to wrap up season one thank you yes brent what's up listen so i know next week we're going to dive into jms's original plan right.

[1:05:23] I need you to pretend like you haven't read it yet okay what would.

[1:05:26] Your original plan like you're you're here you're at this moment right now where do you go from here what's your original plan so so we got or you say we have season one done or am i yeah sure this is where you are you know i mean okay yeah hey you're gonna have the idea for babel on five go you're this far into it what's where do you go from here what happens so that what season two is going to start with um the wedding no go ahead no no i'm gonna let season two happen i'm gonna say that michael o'hairs is leaving the show okay and and moving in that direction towards what we know will happen there but i think what we're going to do is actually be a little bit further ahead like in the you know like we're going to move into the future a little bit some things will have already happened that we'll we'll visit as it's going but the big thing is a return to the station we're not going to necessarily just be led by this new you know hot shot captain sheridan walking around but we're going to have this guy who knows how to fight who knows that how to take it to the shadows to earth force to everybody walker smith is going to show up and he's going to join forces jeff what stop stop why would walker smith yes is going to show about what's he got jason ironheart in tow with him and they're going to team up and go mono and mono back to back and like lay the smack down out here on everybody.

[1:06:56] Dude you've been in wrestling too long man, indeed.

[1:07:03] Music.