March 6, 2023

Confessions and Lamentations

Wow. Babylon 5 takes on COVID-19

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

A plague hits the Markab, but will it impact other races too? Jeff and Brent are blown away in this one. It holds up a mirror to society and it is hard to take.

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Jeff: welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon. For the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters, each with our own Star Trek podcast that we came together and said, Hey, let's watch Babylon five for the first time and do that thing we do with Star Trek podcast only.

Let's do it to Babylon five and see what we can pull out of it.

Jeff: And even though this is not a Star Trek podcast, like Brent said, we have Star Trek podcasts that are still out there. And actually yours is coming up, uh, just a few more months. Right. It's almost

Brent: mine. My, the, the main recording for Beat Me Up has completed it completed right at, towards the end of last year.

And we are currently in the backlog of all the mm-hmm. , the, uh, extra content, like we're leasing the extra content now that we did, and Matt and I still get together every once in a while and record an extra episode that we throw out there. But yeah, we're kind of in the, the downward slope of content, but it's, it's out there.

It's running right now.

Jeff: Go check that out. Beam me up A Star Trek podcast.

Brent: That definitely a Star Trek podcast. Yeah, it was fun. It was a, it was good. Kind of a similar situation. Only I had seen Star Trek before my other guy hadn't. It

Jeff: was a really cool, And the last we'll say on it for people, it's a very cool take on how to watch an episode or a series for the first

Brent: time.

Yeah, it basically, the, the, the idea was how do you boil down over 800 plus hours of content into something that is manageable for somebody to, to dive in and see what the whole thing is really.

Jeff: As we just proved in real time, Star Trek references are bound to show up, whether they're to our podcasts or to the franchise.

So starting right now, we have the rule of three. That means each one of us gets three references to Star Trek that we can make during this episode. That's it.

Brent: Three. One of those takes. No substitutions. Exchanges are really refund. I love

Jeff: that so much. I'm so glad you had me booked that up. That was great.

I love that so much. Well, I wanna share an email that we got from Patrick. Patrick visited our That's the number five in the word He says quite a bit in that email, so I'm gonna boil down kind of this really cool part. He says, Speaking of the DVD box sets, it's too bad that's not the medium you and Brent are using to watch the show.

The season one box set has a special feature on the last disc that answers all your questions about a map for B five. It has an interactive, special feature that visually locates each section of the station. And describes its function. Thank you. At least it's out there somewhere. The third episode for season two features an audio commentary from Bruce Box Lightner, Claudia Christian and Jerry Doyle.

That's absolutely hysterical. You can tell they had a lot of fun making the show.

I dig

Brent: it, I dig it. Uh, we should go do that sometime, Jeff. I would, I have to stay away from, from bonus features right now because bonus features are rarely spoiler free. So I, like in general, I stay away from it, but I'm down for, I, I buy physical media just for the bonus features. I hate if there's one thing I hate about the digital concept right now is you usually don't, I guess they're getting better about it, aren't they?

A little They're starting to get better about it. Yeah. But mostly you just, you just don't get the same kind of extra content that you do on a.

Jeff: We've got a lot, like a growing backlog of stuff. Like we've got special features on DVDs. Mm-hmm. , there's bloopers that people have tried sharing with us. Right.

There's, um, The lurkers

Brent: Lurkers, lurkers or something.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. That people reference quite a bit and I mean, gosh, that looks, I mean, that looks awesome. And then, um, there's a couple autobiographies. Yeah. Auto becoming Superman and then Claudia Christians as well. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. That'd be cool.

Jeff: Yeah. I wanna, I wanna give some quick recognition to one of our awesome regulars on YouTube, and we've shared some of her comments here before, but Missy Prime.

Missy, Yeah. What up Missy hit, It's such a good one here recently, and it's a nice way to kind of kick off the show, I think as well, , this was her comment. Do not give spoilers. The less they know, the better their reactions will. Keep in mind that telling the guys when one of their theories is right or wrong is a spoiler.

No matter how much they speculate about the future, neither confirm nor deny. There you

Brent: go. Preach it, Missy. Preach it. Tell 'em all. Let 'em know. Let 'em know. That's, Yeah. It, it's so true because it's, it's a thing like when people go, Oh, well this just sets something up in the future. Then you're like, Okay, well now I gotta look at it a little harder.

Yep. Or like, Cuz here's the thing, Jeff, and we haven't talked about this, but is it possible we're gonna do Babylon five for the second time and go back through a, on a, probably a faster rewatch, Right? Maybe because, Yeah, because a big, especially with a show like this, there's gotta be so much stuff that we missed the first time around that, the second watch through where, where all of a sudden we're making those connect.

It's gotta be just as entertaining Totally. As, as the first one. You know what I mean? So I I I'm not, I'm not committing us. This is a discussion you all have to have offline, but, you know, a battle on fire for the second time has got to be, uh, there. But like, don't rob us of that joy now, now. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

And, and there's, cuz there is something to do with just the discovery. Like, like you swear to me, here's a great example. Like right now where we are, you swear to me that they mentioned Zaha Doom back in like the third or fourth episode or something like that and that they mentioned it a few, The second episode.

Yeah. And that I think you're lying. I think you're lying. I don't think that's true. I'll probably go back and re-watch it and be like, Damn, Jeff was right. And then be like, Oh my God, they mentioned it here. Like, I'll probably find that, but I don't, but I missed it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there's a

Jeff: lot that we've lost.

Yeah. So, Or we missed. Let,

Brent: let us, let us miss it guys. It's okay. It's okay. Just laugh at us. And if you wanna go talk to other people about us missing it. Where can people do that, Jeff?

Jeff: Well, they can click the link down in either the, uh, the, the show notes or the episode description down below. And, um, you know, I, I think that's a thing.

We haven't really hyped that much and we kind of weren't going to. But yeah, we do have a thing where you can, you know, throw us a little bit of scratch, get on a discord, join the red sector, and, um, talk about whatever the heck you want. Helps keep the show going. Yeah. And meet some

Brent: really cool people.

Yeah. They're awesome. That's really, I mean, that we're, we might be doing it disservice by not telling people about it.

Jeff: That's a good way of looking at it. Cause we got some cool stuff on there. We do. We really do.

That's all that I, uh, that I had to share for today.

Brent: Well, Jeff, You know how we like our games here along with the rule of three. We also play another game at the end of the show where we like to guess what the next episode is gonna be based on title alone, no descriptions, no thumbnails, nothing. Well, now is the part of the show where we look back on that game from last week where we predicted what this week's episode was gonna be about.

We gotta pay the piper, Jeff. I still think we need some sort of a bet, something to sweeten the honey pot on this one and because it would just make this so much better. Like if you're wrong, you have to take a, like it's a drinking game or something. I, I don't know what it is, but we gotta figure that out.

But Jeff, do you remember what you said last week? Confessions and Lamentations was gonna be about, and how close did you get?

Jeff: I do remember, and I, I object to the drinking game. Cuz here's the thing, Brent, your superpower on this show is like predicting the next like, Got pretty incredible bat. My, my superpower is remembering things like recalling things that came up.

Oh, so true. Right? So I feel like I'm not gonna, like we have a show to do. I'm not gonna get drunk. I will be drunk moments into the show. every time. And you're gonna go back and see that they mention Zaha Doom in Revelations. Okay. Do you think so? I'm pretty sure, if I remember right, I thought this was gonna have something to do with Ava picking up like a higher stakes diplomatic mission of, uh, of some kind, which, which I, for a, for a hot second, I thought there might have been like some sort, and then it took a, took a sharp, sharp left turn in an entirely different direction.

So what about you? Do you remember what you uh, what you thought it was gonna be? Well, Jeff,

Brent: you just declared, you are the one with the memory of the two of us. So, what did I say it was gonna be about?

Jeff: I only remember the important things.

Brent: I did was this one where I was just like, It'll be neither about Confessions or Lamentations probably. Yeah, it was something like that. Yeah. I, I don't know. I don't know. There was no way to guess

Jeff: what this is. So I, I can tell you what, Yeah, there's, yeah, we were, we were so, so very far off. So let's get right to, I legitimately don't

Brent: remember.

I like, I, I really don't remember what I said. I should look that up next time.

Jeff: A little bit of prep would be there, you know, . But for those who, uh, know exactly what it was about and they last week were yelling at us cuz we were so wrong. Or for people who haven't watched for a while or for, for people that just, you know, like to hear the sound of your voice.

Brent, why don't you tell everybody what confessions and Lamentations is about?

Brent: Well, on today's episode of Dr. Franklin is always right. We are talking about the Mark .

Jeff: Sorry, I just saw you.

Brent: Whew. All right. Sorry. Well, on today's episode of Dr. Franklin is always right. We're talking about the Marab. And while I'm sure everyone is gonna tell me that they've been around since season one, I swear to you that this is the first one that we saw since last week when Sheridan found No, I'm Try that one again and while I'm sure that everyone is gonna, Oh my God.

Hmm. And while I'm sure that everyone is gonna tell me that they've been around since season one, I swear to you that the first time we ever saw Mark ha was last week when Sheridan found that dead body that grabbed his face. Well, since last episode, four more of these marab have died, and the Mark Ha doctor on the station, Dr.

Larin assures Dr. Franklin that they're all from natural causes, but Dr. Franklin isn't so sure. And what's that now? An entire markup. Now an entire Marab transport is 10 hours overdue. Hmm. Better go check that one out. Well, while they're flying out, let's go check in on Sheridan and Delin for date number two.

Um, I mean for a traditional Mumbar meal and well, Lanier is also there. Totally third wheeling at big time. It's actually a pretty scene.

Sorry, YouTube.

Jeff: Sorry, Jeff, who has to cut all this together? Oh, my , it's fine.

Brent: This to, to be fair, Jeff and I usually record late at night after everybody's in bed, and I was assured that we would be able to, by my lovely, significant other, that they would keep people away. Let me

Jeff: YouTube, if this is your first. Watching Babylon five for the first time. We are, we are streamlined operation all the time. So this is a special gift for you, Right, Right.

Brent: My apologies. Where did, where did I just leave off? Let's go back to this. All right, you ready? Ready. And while they're flying out, looking for the Mark Cab ship, let's go join Sheridan and Dalin for date number two.

Uh, I mean for a traditional Mbar meal and Lanier is totally third wheeling at big time. It's actually a pretty funny scene that I'm not really gonna describe to you because you should just go watch it. But it vs. For the B five Comedy Crown without one scene where Sinclair and Garabaldi were putting Vava to sleep that one time Anyway, out in space, the Zeta Wing has found the Marab ship adrift.

The computer reads 200 plus life forms, but no life signs. That's right. The whole ship is dead, dead, dead, dead. Back on the station in Med Lab. Franklin notices something, but they're not gonna tell us what just yet about this time. Ka Zeta Wing have returned with the Marab ship in tow, and Sheridan goes to examine it, but on his way, he is blocked by Dr.

Lazarin. Dr. Lazarin tries to claim sovereignty over the ship and request privacy, but that's when Franklin bust in with the big news. Ha. They've all died of a plague and that plague has come to Babylon. Five. Well, Lazarin tells us the story of the plague. Unfortunately, no awesome shadow puppets.

Unfortunately, no awesome shadow puppets were used in this explanation. But Mark Ha Legend tells of a deadly plague that is a hundred percent contagious and a hundred percent deadly, that infected an entire mark ha sin planet. And it was, and still is viewed as a divine judgment on the misdeeds of those Heaton.

To this day, the mark had parents still tell their kids the story to scare them into obedience, but other than that, they pretty much don't talk about it. But he's sure that this is what it is and it's the mark ha's God's judgment on the people. Franklin doesn't really care. He just has one question, Can this disease jump species?

And the answer, well, we don't know, which totally means it's going to, right. Well, Dr. Franklin is getting to work on discovering the pathology of the disease, and to do that, he has Dr. Lorenzen, an ISO ward where he's studying the progression of the disease so he can hopefully find a cure. Meanwhile, the rest of the crew has gotta deal with the rest of the folks on board the station.

As they discover that Sheridan has placed the entirety of Babylon five in quarantine, which means no one in and no one out marab or otherwise. Well, this isn't sitting well with too many folks, and it especially doesn't sit well with the marab population as they see it as a direct insult on their integrity, because after all, only the immoral and the unjust have this disease visited upon them.

And since they cannot be immoral or unjust, this disease will not be in visited upon them, surely. Well just then, Dr. Franklin discovers that the pathogen is in fact an airborne disease, and he is informed that the Pac Mara have also been infected with it and have begun to die from this disease. See, I told you it was totally gonna jump species.

Well, the mark have, after taking so much offense at this, decide that their only thing that they can do is to isolate themselves on the station until they can leave and go home. Yeah, not really a good idea since that's just gonna make the disease spread even faster and could kill them all. Also, people, and by people I mean humans have taken to beating up random marab around the station as retribution for getting them locked down and possibly infected.

Dilen and Lanier decide it's time to go into the isolation vault of the marab to try to bring them some comfort, because that's what she does as a mbar. All Sheridan once though is for Dilen to call him John. Yeah. Date number three, definitely on the horizon. Well, down in the isolation vault and Lanier are helping a young girl reconnect with her mother, but just as they come back together, the young girl begins to drop and it's a sign.

That the disease is inside the vault, and this is not good. It's about that time that Dr. Franklin discovers exactly what the disease is, what it does, and how to cure it. And he rushes to the command staff and then they rush to the vault and Sheridan orders the door open only to discover that every last Marab is dead.

Only dilin and linear are left standing. Dilin collapses into Sheridan's. I mean John's arms, but that's of little comfort. As the news reports the worst, the entire marab civilization has been wiped out by the plague. And as people begin to make jokes, Dr. Franklin declares, Nothing changes. Jeff, how did you feel about.

Heartwarming story,

Jeff: right? This was, this was too much. This one.

Brent: We thought this was made in 19 94, 95, Yeah. And we're recording this in 2023, about a year or two Post Covid

Jeff: ish. I mean that depends on, And it's still around. Like that's the thing. I'm wearing my shirt from three years ago. If you're listening to this, you can't see it.

But on YouTube you can see it. It's my kiss. It's time to stay at home. Tour shirt, they canceled their tour and those of us who had tickets got some merch and some stuff. So I have this tour shirt that says, Stay at home. This. So like this was what we thought infection was gonna be way back. Right. This is, here's the sci-fi show.

About a plague that comes to a ship. But holy crud, they took this to a whole different level. Cuz this wasn't like, Oh, we're gonna cure a disease. This was literally, uh, humanity sucks and is dumb. And has this keep happening? Th this is so a week, in, one week from now when this releases, it will be the third year.

It was March 12th, 2020 that I started working from home as a precaution. Wow. Right. But I'm still working from home. Three years. Yeah. I'm still there. Here. Yeah. Like this is, this episode is a reflection of what happened to us in the past. It's a retelling of our present. And honestly, like, it, it infuriates me that this is gonna be our future as well.

We're seeing the same thing. We're seeing that bartender making jokes about dead marab. We're seeing that now. This episode, Brent, It, it pissed me off. Right? Like I'm mad that this keeps happening. This was probably meant at the time as like a commentary on the aggressive, willful ignorance of humanity on, on the, the, the plague on the Spanish flu.

Very timely for them at the time. Aids, right? There it is. That's,

Brent: Yep. I think that I had that as a note. This is an AIDS commentary show. Totally. If, if that's what they're, If this was Star Trek, this absolutely would be an AIDS commentary show. Totally.

Jeff: But you know what we did, do, you know, we did during the aids, like, I mean, and AIDS is still a thing too, right?

The first thing we did, we blamed the LGBTQ plus. Yeah. Their fault. It's them. They made these choices that, that made these things happen. After. After we got past that, because people that weren't LGBTQ started getting it, then we started blaming the government. Right. Just like three years ago. Well, first we blamed the Chinese, then we started beating up the Marab.

Wait, no, I mean people of Asian descent. We started literally beating

Brent: in the streets. In the streets. Streets,

Jeff: yeah. Targeting them and, and attacking them. And once that, I mean, that still happens, but once that wasn't enough for people, they turned on the government and then they turned on themselves and onto other parties.

Through all of these like horrifying things that have happened to us. Every single time we turn on each other, we never come together. We never try to do better. We always. Fight ourselves. I don't care if this alienates some people, but if, if you're one of the people who was like, Well I'm not gonna wear a finish masks cause it's got co2.

You know what? You are the people in this episode. Right? This is you and this is happening now. And I hope you're mad at me and I hope you're saying something and I hope you've decided to not watch us anymore. Cuz frankly, you're part of the problem. This episode made me so mad that I agree with Franklin's points.

Franklin and I are aligned on this one, Brent, and he is the worst. He was right is

Brent: the worst. And he was right. And he was right. Yeah. What,

Jeff: what, what were your first reactions to this?

Brent: Yeah. I mean, so much of this for me was, Holy crap, they're writing about covid. Yeah. Because that's the most recent thing.

Um, and then, and then I thought about it and I was like, No. In there day it would've been aids. But while you talk, you know, another thing, and this one didn't have anything to do with the disease. Shortly after nine 11 here in America, people were beating up any one of Middle Eastern descent. They didn't even have to actually be Middle Eastern descent.

They just sort of had to have a brownish tone to their skin or

Jeff: being into Mohamed or, or anything, or want to go eat falafel. Yeah. You know, or something and Oh,

Brent: yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, honestly, um, I'm gonna dis respectfully disagree with you. I 100% agree with your ire and your emotion. I'm gonna disagree with you.

Those of you who may be of that side of going, I'm not gonna wear a face mask. I had somebody just tweeted me the other day like, Oh, well no. Vaccines is better than my body taking care of stuff. And , you know, my, uh, I looked at the person sitting next to me who's a physician, and that person just laughed like, Yes, your body is very, very good, but your body with a vaccine is very different from your body without a vaccine and.

It's there because science, and that's, this is actually how stuff works. Anyway, uh, for those of you out there who, that might be your thing, I actually hope you keep listening because I hope you learn and get some hope. Uh, because here's the thing, and this is what I really appreciated. So I'm going to change my name on our little deal here.

I, the, our little screen that you can view on YouTube. If you're listening to this later, I have written Dr. Franklin as the worst, uh, I'm writing now. Dr. Franklin was right. Yep. For the record, I planned on doing this mid show anyway before you said that. Um, but here's in this particular case, I have railed on Dr.

Franklin for not taking people's cultures and taking people's, uh, ideologies into consideration. It's always been my way or the highway. However, when you get into an emergent situation like this that is threatening the entirety of people's lives, I don't have time to deal with your effing ethical beliefs and with your personal, uh, I want this and I don't want that.

And wa wa w w w we gotta get this thing under control and we've gotta get this thing under control now before it kills everybody, you know, before it kills every single person on this station. Uh, and, uh, Dr. Franklin was right in this particular case, him looking at, at Lazarin and just going, I don't care about any of that.

Can this jump species? What are we talking about here? What is the actual worst? And I had some real thoughts on, um, Dr. Franklin speaking to his staff. Mm-hmm. yelling at. You know, and, and he's, he's going off on 'em because they're all like, Oh my gosh, this could affect us. He's like, Well, it's not gonna do us any good.

Let's get out there. I want answers people, I want answers. It's gonna take 10 minutes. You got five. I need answers. And he's, and it's, it's probably not the most effective way to lead. But what I really appreciated out of that, on a leadership level in just in general, is when his entire team was, was taking a gasp of air.

He rallied them and like he was their strength. And like, Guys, this doesn't, we gotta put our heads down and go and make this happen. And there is a certain piece where, hey, as a community, I, listen, I grew up in the south. I believe in the individual rights of, of a person. And the government needs to stay outta my life.

I, that's, this is where I am when it concerns everybody. That's where that stuff ends and we have to come together as a collective hold. Jeff, I very much appreciated what you said. Thank you. When are we going to come together? I've often heard people comparing Babylon five to Star Trek saying, Star Trek is the idea of where we will get to Babylon five is the idea of how we get there.

Mm-hmm. , this episode reminds me why we watch Star Trek for the hope of what we can be, because I still believe in humanity. Folks out there, if you are a person who said, I'm not gonna wear a face mask, I'm not gonna get vaccinated, whatever, whatever. I still believe in you. I believe in us as a species. I believe that we can get there.

And that's what I love Star Trek for. This has been a different deal. I understand that. And in the end, while Dr. Franklin was, did find the cure, guess what? It was too late. It was too late because people wouldn't listen. And they let their pride get in the way.

Jeff: They were worried about what people would think of them.

Yeah. What would they think of me? Well, they're not gonna think anything if you're dead. Yeah. You know, and I think, and I think that's what gets me, We let little things like people, there's just this sense of, of you're taking something away from me. You know? And we saw that in the quarantine scene where people were like, No, no, it, and that rang for me.

Right. You know, and it's just, Oh my God, I saw those things happen. I saw people doing that. And it's like, dude, literally, like if I could, and, and this is, I don't want this and well, it's gonna be so nevermind. Like, I, I don't want this to be all about like how I would, you know, c and all this stuff, but here's the deal.

If, if on March 12th or whatever when I went home to work, if, if all the world's banks got together and they said, Hey, you know what? This is a big deal. What we need to do is suspend all mortgage payments for two months. Two months and let people go home because you know why businesses died cuz they had to pay their morg, they had to pay their leases to pay a mortgage.

Why? People had to keep going to work and do stuff cuz they had to go get a job and get paid so they could pay their mortgage, suspend those payments, go home six weeks, go. You know what? We might be in a very different place, but no, I'm a big bank. I gotta make my money. Oh no. I'm an individual citizen who can make my own decisions for myself, even though it impacts every single person I come into contact with.

Mm-hmm. , stop. Like this isn't just about individuals. This is a fundamental societal problem where everyone's worried about me. What's in it for me? What am I gonna lose? Yeah. Instead of thinking about us, right? Yeah. You are an individual and you have your own rights and do your own thing. But the second, the second impacts anybody around you, you gotta give it up.

You have to have that ego surrender. Mm-hmm. and, and understand that there's something bigger. Right. And it's all of us together.

Brent: Yeah. I mean, Jeff, with, with that though, and, and I mean, the inherent problem comes back to people. People will find anything they can to justify the thing that they want to do.

And I think that's something we really saw play out during Covid. It's something we saw play out in this episode. Mm-hmm. when, when Dr. Franklin, who's just trying to fix this disease, and he's like, Okay, we need to, I, I, when somebody becomes infected, I need to know when they're infected right away so that we can track the pathology of this, of this disease.

Oh, you can't tell people that you can't because that means that they haven't, uh, that, that they're immoral. And that's what that's gonna mean. Not just necessarily what it looks like. It's just what you're saying to that person. And you know, they're not gonna, they're not gonna confess that. And so we're all gonna take our ball and go home and then we're gonna go in this little thing.

No, no, no. You shouldn't do that because of, here's why. And people are like, Well, that's not actually how the science works. And then they create their own science. And they create, then they get people that will echo whatever they want to, to have happen or to, to be said, to give them permission to do what they want to do.

I e people who went out there and said, Face masks don't work because things this tiny and, and whatever. And no matter how much people said, Yeah, it is this tiny, but it lives on water droplets, which aren't that tiny, and those are the things that get caught, you know, Or when the vaccine came out and people are like, Well, you should get the disease.

Yeah. Because vaccines don't stop people from getting diseases. Vaccines teach your body how to fight the disease when it comes in contact with it. Right. And, and he, he even says this, he says, We've got to do something here before it begins to mutate. Because even though it may just go to the pomar and now it could mutate and spread to everybody else.

Mm-hmm. . And that's, that's what you see in the course of disease is, is this is why you've gotta get it under control. And you know, we as a society damn near wiped out polio. And many other diseases, you know, and, and, and people wanna, Well how did it happen so fast? Because we've been working on the technology of the vaccine for 10 years before it ever became a thing.

You know what, they were working on it with Jeff aids, They were working on an AIDS vaccine. Yep. And somebody looked up and said, Hey, this seems to kind of do a little bit the same thing. I wonder if we can take what we've been learning there and just apply it here. And you know what They could, Yeah. It works.

And it worked. And you know what? We now have, we have a better treatment for AIDS than we've ever had before. I'm not gonna call it a cure. I have, I have heard reports of people, and I don't know, I haven't confirmed this independently, but I've heard reports who doctors have declared as cured from aids.

Jeff: Yeah. It's not an automatic death sentence like it was now. I mean, it's not gonna be great, but there are people with AIDS that are dying from things unrelated to aids, you know? And that in the eighties, nineties, early odds that wasn't happening. But it is because, because of this work. Right? Because of this science.

And I think I really appreciated Babylon five as a storytelling device. And Dr. Franklin, I mean, just being who he is and all the things that we've, we've derived him for forever worked in his favor.

Brent: He, that is what was needed for this time. For this, Yes.

Jeff: Or this time. Yeah. Where it was, I'm not gonna listen to your, your objections about this thing.

I'm not gonna, we. We are getting down to the brass tacks, right? To the, the bare bone science of this thing. I want to see these cells working with these cells and see what happens, Right? Like the most, most atomic level he could get to and would let nothing get in, get in his way to do it. But what was amazing to me was how Dr.

Uh, Lain was the same, right? Like as soon as he had the, uh, the little, like, he grabbed his throat, he's like a little sore throat, and then he started, you know, exhibiting the symptoms. He's like, Quick, get me in there, watch me. And he's dictating the thing all, like he got it. He understood mm-hmm. and then like, I mean, he was gonna die anyway.

And this goes to one of the Star Trek messages we talked about in, in an earlier episode. He was gonna die no matter what, but he made sure people benefited from his death. Yeah, he, he gave, he gave it all and, and made sure that people benefited from it.

Brent: Unlike the rest of the Marquette population, which frankly buried their head in the sand and they killed that cute little

Jeff: girl.

How messed up, Like the second, the second that little kid showed up on the screen. I'm like, Oh my God, they're gonna kill another kid.

Brent: Yeah, they killed a kid. They killed again. Again. But it,

Jeff: but they had to, you know what I mean? They had to, to make it, make, make it have the impact that, that it did.

Brent: Yeah.

Yeah. Um, Jeff, I, there's, we were, we were talking about this a little bit before we came in. There's so little, um, of this episode to discuss that isn't related to the larger message. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, like, we can't separate these and get to a particular segment. I wouldn't do that. Let's just, the whole, the whole dinner between and Sheridan was absolutely hilarious.

Teeny tiny space forks. Awesome. Those two are definitely getting together as a couple. Oh yeah.

Jeff: Now, John. All right. I wanna tie those just really quick, a few kind of things that we do in this part before we dive into things that plot the little, like, I'm gonna go and eat with a tiny fork thing tied to the, the dfa, the, the, the, the plague storyline as well.

I didn't

Brent: pick up on this, so I'm very interested in what you're about to say.

Jeff: What, So, the meal that they had for the traditional Menari meal was very much a Passover meal. So, okay. You, you're, you're given a very specific way of preparing the meal, Um, Pray and Passover. You pray over the, the ingredients you tell certain stories.

At each, you know, bite. In each course you pray certain prayers, like there's a, a very rigid formality to the Passover, Passover meal when the ambassador takes all the marab into the holding cell or the cargo bay or whatever it was. He actually says, We believe the dark angel of DFA will pass over us. I did pick up on that.

So you had the actual Passover meal that was happening in, uh, which again is another callback to Judaism, which again, Babylon five has treated the religion better than almost any other property I've ever, ever seen. You have the Passover meal and then the actual, what Passover was about, the differences this time.

This time it didn't work.

Brent: Well, it did because they didn't partake of the meal and put the blood over the, the lentil, you know, But who did survive in that room? The people

Jeff: who did participate in the Wow. Yeah. I didn't even do that math. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in that, in there, when, when they were with, in, in, in the cargo hold in there and shared her story mm-hmm.

with the little girl about being found in the temple when she was lost as a girl. That's not the last time we're going to hear that story. You don't think so? I think that she had a vision. I'm uhhuh a vain. I'm going back to vain again. Okay. Either that or it was a first one that, that came on and, and, and said basic cuz I forget exactly what, what they said.

What was it? Um, I will not allow harm to come to my little ones here. Yeah. So there's gonna be something in a minbar temple of some form of safety at some point. But I, I think it's gonna tie back to vain somehow. Just because why not Vains the drum I beat all the time, .

Brent: Right. Um, I just wanna point this out.

We learned this Sheridan's a lefty, lefty crowd. Yeah. Shout out to my fellow left-handed people. Um,

Jeff: it was also very much like when they're going over the, the rules on stuff. It reminded me of SpongeBob. Right? So they're like, mm-hmm. , eat a bite with the right hand. Don't forget it. , when he is doing the bubble wand, stop on the right foot. Don't

Brent: forget it. Yeah. I, I literally wrote this note down because this all happened before everything got going with his episode.

I said, How in the world do you ever have a fat mumbar? Yes. Seriously. . Like,

Jeff: in fact, what's the best

Brent: meal plan ever? .

Jeff: Let's start marketing it right now. Right? The Babylon five for the first time. Guaranteed way to lose. Eat like a mbar, ,

Brent: that's our t-shirt. Eat like a mbar. And then you have a picture, like a silhouette of just a teeny tiny space work.

Jeff: And me in the background crying, just like Right. So hungry.

Brent: Right. Uh, Jeff, we've certainly lightened this. I gotta be honest, when they first started doing the whole Marab disease thing, you know what I thought it was? Hmm. I thought it was their version of Theon fire. Really? And then it wasn't. Yeah. That, that was where my mind first went, because I wasn't thinking, No, no, no.

We're going into a legit disease that is marking of world events that we've had happen here over the, over

Jeff: history. Yeah. That's the thing I appreciated, and I'll say this so we can pivot into the, into the deeper discussion mm-hmm. , because they didn't, it wasn't just the AIDS episode, right? This, they went, they went back and they painted this picture of history of, of human history, time and again, and then they painted it across all.

All races. It's, you know, so it was just, it was just, yeah. Excellent, Excellent

Brent: story. The idea that we, I'm gonna save that for when we get to the next section. Are we ready, Jeff? I think we're ready. Let's do it. Cause I think this is what really what this episode is, is really about. Um,

so with that, Jeff, uh, it's time to, after having gone through all our standout moments and our goofs and our laughs and all that sort of stuff. Oh, by the way, did you notice the camera in, uh, Keifer's helmet? No. You could see the reflection of the camera in Keifer's helmet. Lemme anyway, smooth. Um, yeah. Uh, after all that, it is time to boil us down, show down and see if it has any of that star treky quality.

Does it give us a deep moral message? Yeah. Is it holding up a mirror to society? Ab So Fri is it giving us hope that it's gonna be better in the future? No way. Uh, . So let's talk about this part. We're probably, this will be a lengthy discussion ish. Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. And then at the end, uh, I'm actually gonna write this episode.

On a scale of zero to five deltas is how far as how Star Trek it is. And you're gonna do zero to five star Furies, How Babylon five this show is. Let's do it. So what I was just about to say,

the two pieces that got me were two, something that goes back to what you were saying earlier, the idea that we keep doing this to ourselves. The example that, I think it was Dr. Franklin who was talking, talking about the Black Plague, the Black Death, and he. The disease was being spread through rats and the fleas on the rats.

The ironic thing is, is that people thought that it was from the devil, and since cats were thought to be the familiar of the devil, they killed thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of cats. In the irony of that being that those cats actually would've been the thing that stopped the disease, right?

Mm-hmm. , we did it to ourselves because of our faith. Uh, I can't tell you what happened during the Spanish flu, but I can dang sure tell you what happened during Covid. And the covid thing was we did it to ourselves. People, and I'm not just looking at Americans, I'm looking at all y'all out there around the rest of the world, cuz it was everywhere.

You know, first of all, I don't know how the disease got released into the public, right? But somebody released a disease into the public, right? Accident or on purpose. I don't care how it, it came out and it got released. But then people decided not to do the basic things that needed to be done to stop a disease.

because they had to go to work because they had rent to pay, because they had mortgages. Because American, American businesses don't give people days off sometimes. Right. And then people got up in arms because they didn't. And then when we got, by the way, it was, think of who was in current administration when the disease was, or when the vaccine was developed.

It was only distributed by a different administration and people politicized it. That's what happened. People politicized it, let's call it what it was. And then they tried to put their faith to it and say something of that nature. And then they tried to rewrite science and all this sort of stuff. It was political.

That's really, It was political and just auto wanna, And, uh, that thing blew up in our faces. Pretty, pretty hardcore. Yeah. And, uh, but they do it based on, we did it to ourselves. And then we look at the marab in this episode, those marab would not have died like that. On mass if they had stayed out of that room like Dr.

Franklin had said, but they insisted on going in that room because that's what they thought they should do because of their pride and the way that their, their faith or their history or their culture teaches and it wiped them out when we had the cure right there, it was right there. I mean mean

Jeff: minutes, minute or maybe a little less than, but I mean it was

Brent: a he way that this is not an Antifa talk.

I am a person of faith. Jeff, you are a person of faith. I am. Um, this is a human talk. This is a be smart talk. This is a think of people other than yourselves talk there was and be a part of society talk.

Jeff: There was, if I can kinda add that on to, to paint a better picture of the faith side of things as well.

And, and maybe. To what you're saying, but there was a, a Catholic priest who did this incredibly powerful interview early, early in the days of Covid where he said that this is a virus and it's a disease that's impacting people. But the real disease is the culture of me that pervades our society as, as, as a whole.

Our society is concerned about what happens to me. Sure. Regardless of what happens to the we and what has to happen to beat this disease is we have to flip our culture on its head and we have to think of others instead of thinking of ourselves. Mm-hmm. . And that's, you know, part of what I talked about in the Star Trek message, I think it was last week, where you have to, um, or a couple weeks ago, um, when, when Sheridan and K first started kind of talking to each other, when he said, You have to know your.

Before you can know others. It's all about taking care of others. You take care of you so you can take care of other people. And that's the the point that this Catholic priest was saying like, you have to take care of you. Right. You gotta be healthy and wear your face mask and stay home and, and make sacrifices.

Yeah. So that other people can be safe. And our society wasn't okay with that. We weren't okay about thinking about other people.

Brent: So to juxtapose that, then you had Dilin, God bless Dilin. Yeah. And you had linear come in with the most Star Trek thing ever, who says, I'm gonna go be with those people. And he is like, Oh, you can't do that. And in Sheridan or, or someone says at the time, those are not your people. Or they're, they're not like you.

Or something like that. And they, there's this line similarity is not needed to exercise Compass. Holy cow. And they open the door and they go in not knowing if it could be spread to them or not, and not really caring, but they're there to do their job. And Embar exists to serve what Jeff? Others. Others, not themselves, but others being the perfect example of how we should live and behave.

And turns out the mbar were not susceptible to this disease anyway. And they stood there in the middle of all that and stayed with them literally till their dying breath. I mean, I, that just, that's the way we should be. That's the way we should respond to others. InLight. Now we're talking about being a Star Trek messager.

Two final thoughts, and I'll give my rating one this episode if I, if I did, I did AKAs back on, beating me up. If I could do an AKA for this episode title, it would be Dr. Franklin's Kochi Maru, because that's exactly what this was. This was an unwinnable situation. How many times you're not gonna win this, you're, you're not gonna win this.

And, and, uh, uh, dude had a great line when he said, Oh, I didn't write it down, did I? Oh, I put it in somewhere. Anyway, uh, uh, Dr. Lorenzen says to Franklin, he says, Everything with you is a test that needs to be passed. He's like, What? What if this is not really a or a problem to be solved, Right? He said, What if this isn't a test to be passed?

But it's really about seeing how you respond when you realize there is no right answer. There is no way to win and to see how you respond. And Dr. Franklin went, Ugh. And he said, Screw it. I'm gonna do it. and like Jim Kirk said, I don't care. I don't believe in no win scenarios. And he went to work and he figured out a way, not necessarily like cheating the way that Kirk did, but he figured out a way, but still in the end he was too late.

It, it turned out to be a no win scenario. Mm-hmm. because he couldn't even get that, that cure to the rest of the marab population as far as we know. Cause the news report said that basically the entirety of the mar cap people are gone off, out of the universe, wiped out because of this thing. At least maybe he saved the Pura, I don't know.

Um, so I don't know how much more Star Trek you get than literally having a Kohi Maru as the theme of your show. Um, but I loved his tenacity of, I don't care if it's a no one scenario, I'm gonna figure something out. The final one is the juxtaposition. ORs my favorite word, The juxtaposition of garabaldi versus the thugs.

The thugs are beating the ever loving pit snot out of that marab. And Garabaldi comes in and throws them off and says to them, Get outta here. No, we're not doing this. And after, even, even with a moment of hesitation, which I think was a very human thing to do mm-hmm. , right? Uh, he reaches down a hand and he extends a hand to help someone who very well might get him sick and have him killed.

Right. He, gar Baldy had all the right in the world to be just as mad at the mar cab people as those guys that were beating him up. He had all the right in the world to be just as mad as, as I did. And you did Jeff at people who refused to wear a face mask or people who refused to ever get a vaccine as if they've never had a vaccine before in their life.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. to, to be that, to have all the right in the world. But he was able to calm himself and extend a hand and say, I'm gonna help you up. That is a Star Trek. This episode was replete with Star Trek messages. The only thing I don't know is if they were intending to deliver messages and make a commentary on their time.

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I don't know. I don't know what this sets up for the overall story of Babylon five, or if this is a, Hey, we got 22 episodes. We gotta fill 'em out and let's do this one. That actually seems to matter. I don't know which way it goes. Uh, but this was a Star Trek episode through and through.

This is a five Delta Trek episode to me all the way

Jeff: through. Agreed. I think what is fascinating, and I had this exact same thoughts that you had, like, my God, it doesn't get more Star Trek than this, but it, like so many episodes we've watched recently, it delivers the message in a very Babylon five way.

And Babylon five doesn't follow the Mary Poppins, uh, rule of a spoonful of sugar. It just shoves the medicine straight down your throat, . Right . But I think one of the things that's interesting about Star Trek is, you know, one of Star Trek's big things it rails against is religion. You know, we've evolved past the needs for those mythologies that people follow, but the messages are so similar because that scene with Garabaldi was so powerful.

That was Jesus with the lepers. That was the good Samaritan, Right. Who stopped on the, I think it was the path to Judea and, and, and the Samaritan helped the Jew. That was, I mean, it made himself unclean to help. It was the only one that would do it. Right. It's such a, such a powerful lesson, and I appreciate how Babylon five interweaves religion in a way that that's complimentary both to the message it's delivering and to the religion itself.

Right. That I think does evolve, you know, as, as we know more and, and, and stop sucking as, as human beings.

Brent: So Jeff, you've got star Furies. How do you give this one star Furies? Usually we say Star Furies is, is kind of a, how much do we enjoy this episode? Like, how much did we like it? But you know, you're right, this was a Star Trek message in a very Babylon five way, which makes it great, right?

Like, I love that it's being delivered in a different way. Uh, but what, what do you give this on Star Furies? I

Jeff: hate this episode. I hate it with a deep, deep passion, but I hate it. Not because it's a bad episode, because it's a great episode. It is so well done. It's poignant. Done in a way only babble on five.

Yeah, could, could do this. I mean, this episode to me, right back in season one, they were still figuring out the characters and how are we gonna tell a story in this space or whatever. And so they gave us believers, Here's believers, right? Oh my God, what a horrible greatness. And

Brent: they killed the kid. Yeah.

Jeff: How dare they, Well, they did it again. They killed the kid. Cause, Cause Brett, they, they, they're better at making TV now. And this time they're like, Hey, we're gonna do believers, um, again, except now we're gonna drop all pretense. Right now it's just, Hey, this is humanity and you're terrible and you keep being terrible.

And it, and it spreads across everything. And by the way, earlier you talked about the Marab, Marab had played a pretty prominent role throughout Babybel on five. They were No, they have not. They were the spokespeople. Spokespeople for the league of non-aligned world. No, they were not more than once. When Jaar wanted to go after the shadows, it was the marab that stood up and had history with the shadows and supported the vote to go and check out Zaha Doom, which was mentioned before.

Like they, they have a history. They're part of the whole thing. They killed an entire. , but I think it also balanced the, the stuff with the, with Sheridan and Thelen stuff, the, the romantic stuff with Dilen and John that I, I don't think I like very much.

Brent: We'll see, I I'm, I'm, I'm warm to it. It just in the middle.

Like it was, it was sweet and it was endearing and you know, I, you know, I know I've kind of floated the whole idea of Gar Baldi and Ava and you're a hundred percent right, Like that really doesn't need to be an a thing that develops. Um, but this whole Sheridan and the Lynn thing, like, maybe it's coming.

Jeff: Yeah. Oh, it's, yeah. I think it's gonna happen. There's no, Yeah, there's no doubt. In fact, like when she walked in that, you know, to basically ask permission to go and I'm just like, they're gonna kiss. Oh my God, they're gonna kiss here it

Brent: comes. But see, here's like, I think that Dilin and Sheridan are gonna be far more Tom and Blan than Oto and Kira.

Jeff: Yes, that makes complete

Brent: sense. You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh, for all you Star Trek folk out there, who know what I'm talking about. Um,

Jeff: Yeah. But I think that this is one that, God, I gotta rate it. ,

Brent: This is Jeff laying his rating folks, cuz he's trying to figure it out.

Jeff: Well, I'm trying to figure it out cuz it, This is, this is a tough one.

I think. I think I've got it. This, this is a, this is a wildly important piece of tv. It was important in 1995 when we were still blaming the lgbtq plus community for aids. It's important now where we're still blaming politicians, we're blaming politicians for Covid still. Today. My God, it's just, this is a five star theory episode.

This is as Babylon five as it gets. This was excellent television. This was amazing. And I say five star theories, not just because of those reasons, but because like, here it is a couple days after I've watched it and I am still fired up and passionate about everything that happened. Mm-hmm. , in this episode,

Brent: this is an episode you mentioned, uh, you mentioned you never wanna see this episode again.

Yeah. . Or maybe you didn't say it cause I'm living it.

Jeff: We're living, we're living

Brent: this episode. This was a great episode. I never wanna watch it again. I do not like this episode. I hate this episode. It was a fantastic episode. Yeah. . And, and I remember during our recap last week, last year for, for uh, uh, season one.

The thing I said, and I think I said it about believers, if you can make me feel something you won and I like Schindler's List. I don't need to watch Schindler's List. That often in my life. It is a must watch at least once. It is a fantastic film. Yes, you need to know it. You need to see it. But it's a hard watch.

This episode's a hard watch. I don't, I don't know how this plays into where we've been as a, as a season though. And I do, I do confess, I'm a little perturbed with the timing of this episode. Yeah. Because I really thought when we had that episode, it was a couple weeks ago, uh, which one was Oh, in the shadow of Zaha Doom.

Mm-hmm. . I was like, Okay, we've, they've had all their stuff to fill in the rest of the season. It is time to turn and it's the redemption of lawn and the shadows are coming and the great war's gonna come upon us, and we've got four episodes left, five episodes left. We're gonna, this is what we're focusing on.

I can't say that this feels like it's a part of that larger story

Jeff: at all. So I think it does just because it's the marab. Because they were such a key part. They, they referenced history with the shadows before, and you're like, What? What are you even talking about? I don't even know. But they did in a council meeting.

They talked about having these. But Jeff,

Brent: all of that could happen before the, in the shadows. The,

Jeff: it could have. But I think now, like one of the massive, the big race dalen and, and, and, and, uh, K both talked about needing to be ready, having everybody ready for the shadows, and we just wiped an entire race Yeah.

Off the, not just the map, but the game

Brent: board. Yeah. And that's a good question. So what does this mean going forward, especially for the war? That's, that's to come. That we know is to come. Because if

Jeff: you think about it, we've got earth teasing itself, right? With like all the problems that are happening there.

We have the cent and the NAS straight up in war. We have them in bar with massive political unrest. And now we have the Marab that don't even exist anymore, like. If I was the shadows and looking to wipe out, everybody seems like time's pretty ripe,

Brent: right? Well, Jeff, with that, it's a five delta, five star fury kind of a day.

I feel like we should have something that celebrates that. Yeah, some something, you know. Cause we don't often get a five and five. Five by five. This is a five by five episode. There we go. Yeah. Uh, well with that being said, now we gotta do the other thing where we are going to rank this episode because Jeff and I are compiling through season two, the absolute 100%, completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon five, season two.

So Jeff, I'm gonna leave it to you. The question is, where are you gonna place confessions and Lamentations? Our top five currently are the coming of shadows race through dark places in the shadow of Zaha Doom, alone in the night, Hunter Prey, Knives. And then I was six. And then it goes on from there. , where do you place, And I, I wanna challenge you with this, Jeff, before you, while you're thinking about your placement

base, this on the quality of episode, a lot of times I think when we get in there, we use this litmus test of which episode do I wanna watch again? To, to place it. Mm-hmm. , this one cannot be fitted, cannot fit into that litmus test. Like this is an outlier. Right. That is the strength of the episode is gonna be very independent from the enjoyment of the

Jeff: episode.

I'm enjoying your campaigning for the, uh, the ranking

Brent: right now, but I'm not trying to push it higher , but

Jeff: No, you're, you're exactly right. It's, it's, it's, it's gotta be about more than that. Cause it's not just the top five or top 10 or whatever that Jeff and Brent like. This is the, these are the, this is an important episode.

This is the ranking of season two B on five. Yeah. And, and when I look back, like I'm looking back at our, um, season one. Ranking that we did and believers was a top 10 episode for us at season one. And this is like, this

Brent: is the Mormon TKO four. TKO was really high. Not because, not because tko was a particularly well executed episode.

In fact, it's quite divided and, and it deserves so much of its derision. But because of what it actually did and what it said in the quality of an episode and how they, they, they wove that story together. And if you guys don't know what I'm talking about, if you just laughed and said, What tko? Yes, seriously.

We had tko at number four and you guys should go back and listen to that to understand exactly why we put it there, because there's reasons that it's there. Jeff went on another podcast and defended TKO when they were trying to slam it into the ground a bunch of months ago.

Jeff: And I will continue to do so.

It's funny you're looking at that as kinda looking through my notes and the other rankings here. And I actually have this note getting ready for the rankings here. I said, remember Jeff, our ranking isn't just about which ones are our favorites, . So we're on the same, um, the same boat. So when I look at our top 10 so far for this season, Oh my god.

Yeah, no, no question. This episode's gonna drop in there. Mm-hmm. and looking at it, I'm immediately gonna put it, Where's the line? I'm gonna put it above points to departure for sure. Okay.

Brent: So lemme start looking at Soul Soulmates was the one with lawn and his wives. Mm-hmm. , which was a lot of fun. Silly fun.

But is this better than silly? Fun? So,

Jeff: God, this is tough. I think I'm even gonna put this one. I'm gonna go, It's, it's, it's. The

Brent: correct answer is yes, it is better than Sifa .

Jeff: Yes, correct. Okay, I've got it. This is gonna go, So I've got it. I, I'm arguing with Hunter Prey all alone in the night. So looking in four and five right now, and frankly, all alone in the night did so much to advance and set up what we've now learned about the Von and how Sheridan is gonna work with them.

It's an important episode and it was a great, it was a really well done episode. Yeah. I'm gonna put this one above Hunter prey below all alone in the night. This is our number five. So what was Hunter Prey? Just Hunter Prey was where, uh, Dr. So crates was running from President Clark and then Oh yeah. Was, you know, uh, hostage by Bull Shannon and all that.

That was, that was a good episode.

Brent: That was a great episode. This one is more important than that episode. Yeah. And, but I think it runs in that, in that realm. But I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right to say. This episode right now as we sit doesn't feel like it's gonna have a huge, major impact on the overall story.

Maybe it does. We don't know. Don't tell us folks. Please don't tell us. Uh, but there is this, this episode certainly has a lot to say. Yes, and I think it deserves that placement. So I'm, I'm in agreement with you at number five, and it doesn't matter because you get to play social, and I can't argue

Jeff: it's the, the danger of the game.

Well, Brent, that's it for Confessions and Lamentations, if you're still here with us after all of that, thank you. But next week we're going to be watching Divided Loyalties for the first time. As Brent said at the beginning of the episode, one of the games we play is that we don't look these up. We don't read what it's gonna be about.

We don't look at pictures. We have no idea. Brent literally just heard the title of the episode for the first time. So we like to guess what it's gonna be about. Brent, what do you think? Divided loyalties is gonna be about, this

Brent: has to get back to the war. This has to get back to the Na Sonari war specifically.

And I think this is lawn. I've been, I've been, I've been anchor at Hanking for a good lawn redemption episode. Now we saw back in, was it knives or their lies, all the

Jeff: honor. Knives was the last time we saw lawn. And, uh, and his buddy.

Brent: But we, but we saw lawn that everything cracked with lawn. And he is like, No, I'm really questioning what's going on here.

I don't know what's happening. And this is an episode about lawn and is he loyal to the sonari and this war? Or is he loyal to what is right and what is correct and to peace? What is, what is lawn's loyalty that is divided? And I think that's what this one is about.

Jeff: That sounds good. I think this is gonna get back to earth and all the earth stuff that's going on.

In fact, you know who we haven't seen in a while? Uh, Bester. Well park along the same Talia Winters. Oh yeah, Talia wouldn't we just see her, didn't it? Yeah. So I think this is gonna move. Um, this is gonna be, uh, build off of the night watch stuff that she went through. Okay. Cyco is gonna be encouraging her to join Night Watch and be a part of it.

That's gonna raise her suspicions already and ours as well about what Night Watch and Cycore are. And then she's gonna lean on a vava for support, right? This is where Talia kind of has to decide is she cyco or is she not?

Brent: Ooh, Okay. Interesting. So Talia has to decide is she Cycore or not?

Jeff: That's her divided loyalty.


Brent: a good divided

Jeff: loyalty one too. I think it's when they set up a while ago, right? When she had that Cyco bag Yeah. Sitting on the, on

Brent: the bureau. Yeah. When she took it off. Mm-hmm. and, and with with Ivanova. Yeah. This one's, Oh man. That could set up a lot of stuff with her. Totally. That could set up a whole lot of

Jeff: stuff with her.

Put her on the run. Or it could turn her into a, an unwilling villain. Jeff.

Brent: Jeff. Jeff. Jeff. Jeff. Jeff. Is it possible legit? Oh my. If this comes out, people are gonna be like,

Jeff: There's no way Brent's flexing is superpower

Brent: right now. I, I am. Okay. The, the, in the gathering, there were two characters that got recast tall.

Your recast one of those characters.

Jeff: Um, Lida Lida Alexander.

Brent: Is that what it was? I think I wanna say Lea because it's a deepest iron name, I think is why it jumps out to me. But I think it was Lea and I remember they were cast for, for no good reason. I would love to see Dr. Kyle come back into this and, you know, slap Franklin around a little bit.

But is it pos? So, so just track your, your thing. If, if Talia goes in and she, she goes rogue in Sycor, Cyco is gonna have to send a new person back to Babylon five. And it's, and, and because like remember we commented on that, the idea, they didn't kill these characters, they just shelved them. Right. Could lead Alexander come back?

Well, and here's what's even more. He, the one who's coming after Talia, what's even more fascinating, they're on run like a

Jeff: right. What's even more fascinated about that is we now know that K is a first one. The Vons are first ones. The reason she got reassigned storyline wise is because she mind scanned caution.

She knows that it

Brent: would be, it would be so much better than just introducing a new. Oh, Or, or the other thing, and I, I don't know if he becomes a main cast member, but the way people talk about Bester as being, uh, as being in this show, I get the feeling he's more like Q like he just turns up a handful of times.

And when you're, when you look at how many times he's actually shown up, it's actually surprisingly little because he's such a big part of the show. But what if, what if, Jeff, what if Bester gets assigned to baby one five and he's the new guy? Wow.

Jeff: They upgrade. Right? We have a cycop on here now, right? Big Cause here's what I would hate if it's Ali Alexander.

Okay? I'm gonna own this now because this is, this is Brent Allen making the call. So there's like a 90% chance here, , right? But this is why I would be mad, You know how many people I've argued with on YouTube, on Twitter, by email, where they're like, Hey, there's just random, uh, interview with the actor who played Lee Alexander, where she said that they totally ripped off Deep Space Nine.

And I'm like, Dude, she was in one episode that didn't like, as a pilot, just if she shows up again, I'm gonna be a jerk. So, especially if she becomes a regular. So I'm hoping for 10%.

Brent: I think, I mean, I just, cuz I have been looking like quietly in the back of my head. I haven't talked about it a whole lot, but there's been like, Cause we saw Sinclair come back.

Yeah. Yeah. That one thing, like the, the, these characters that, that, you know, cause we know JMS builds these trap doors in. He's saving characters. So I would

Jeff: maybe, and

Brent: to, I remember liking Lida, like I don't understand why they, why they recast her.

Jeff: It's probably, I would bet a lot of money was a scheduling issue.

Oh, okay. Cause they didn't know it was, it was a year, you know, And that's why I think part of why Tokushima went too.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: And to steal, steal a line that came from somebody a while ago on the trap door thing. Like they had a literal trap door for Kodo. It was just happened to be an airlock that she went out of

Right, right. And then got replaced by awesome nata, who was then replaced by the terrible version we have now. We'll break. Do, I would like to give her the coat off treatment. Seriously. Yeah. Line me up. I'll do it. Well, we're gonna find out what, uh, what divided loyalties is gonna be about here next week.

Thank you all so much for joining us and I hope that you, uh, derived some value from our conversation today. I know I did. Brent, thank you for the talk today. This was actually like, we talked some real stuff. Yeah. So thank you for that. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening, wherever you're watching.

And Stop by Apple Podcast. Leave us a rating review. We'll read it right here on the podcast, Brent, until next time. Hey, Jeff. Jeff? Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Brent. You know, whenever we get to these endings, it always seems like you feel like this is like, I'm gonna test you, just trying to see if you can pass the test.

What if this really isn't about passing the test, but rather as seeing how you respond when you realize that you're never gonna win at

Jeff: this? Wow, man. Um, Peace. Peace and long life.