July 25, 2022


For Kosh, no one is ready for immortality

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

In Deathwalker we learn that even the Minbari aren't above petty politics. And we still have references to VCR's??

Babylon 5 For the Fist Time podcast logo with the Patreon logo on top of it


Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching babble on five for the first time. Jeff and I are two veteran star Trek, podcasters watching babble on five for the very first time searching for star Trek, like messages in the series, trying to decide, should we have watched this, you know, 30 years ago when it was first coming out?

Jeff: Unlike you. I was busy watching star Trek when this came out the first time. But you were a late comer to star Trek.

Brent: I was, I was, I was very, yeah, I didn't get into star Trek until after it was pretty much off TV for a while or really close to it. I, I saw enterprise, but yeah, uh, I. You know what it, this, this particular age of my life, I was in, uh, middle school and high school, and I had more things to do to be cool and not be a nerd, uh, as it was back in the nineties.

Jeff: Brent just called me a nerd, but he is not wrong at all.

Brent: I, it just, no, what I mean is, is, is that that's actually a ne on me because like, I was more concerned about stuff like that and what people thought of me rather than actually enjoying great TV.

Jeff: And that's what we get to do now, but because we've watched so much star Trek and we have star Trek podcasts on top of this one, we have to remind ourselves, this is not a star Trek podcast. We're gonna pull in references. We can't help it. It's the language that we speak, but we have a little game, some rules that we play by, and it's the rule of three.

So each one of us coming into each episode have three references that we can make no more. So, Brent, I don't know about you, but, uh, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna come close to it this week,

Brent: We've been really good, those last couple of weeks on our, on our deal. Yeah. Yeah, we, we have, um, and I don't know if that's just cause we're getting into the groove of this show and how we're doing this show or if it just, the references just haven't been there. Um, but I can't wait. I can't wait to see where you're gonna go with your star Trek stuff.

Uh, this.

Jeff: I got a couple here. Listen, Brent, you know this, I know this, those of you listening, you are the best part of Babylon five for the first time. And so this is one of my favorite parts of the show where we're gonna share with you comments, emails, tweets, reviews, whatever it is. And so I'm gonna start Brent. We have a new five star review, five star review.

Brent: they're the best kind, really.

Jeff: This one's on apple podcast from no date for me. And no date for me says as a big B five fan, as well as a star Trek fan, I'm enjoying your ride.

There's so much ahead for you on this journey and listening to your comments reminds me of how I had to be dragged into the show by a friend and I'm eternally grateful for the gift he gave me.

This was a show that received terrible marketing in the us often placed at 4:00 AM on the network. I would set the VCR yep. That old to record it. And I missed 30 minutes of one episode because the network randomly changed the time I was up every morning, super early to watch it after that point and to make sure I never missed a moment.

I hope you get to that same point when each show is a roller coaster of good stuff that you can't wait until you see the next episode.

Brent: there, a, a VCR. Stands for video cassette recorder and you used to have these big, they were like the size of bricks. Uh, and, and you would have, it went real to real, like you had a, a wheel and it was magnetic tape on one side and it was on the other side. And what you had to do, if you had to watch a show that you, you, weren't gonna be able to see, you would have to put in this blank tape, usually put a piece of tape over the thing that would keep you from recording over it, and you had to set it and you had to watch it.

And it was, it was scraggly. And you had to watch the commercials with it. And if somebody came in and recorded over your show, before it was done, then you just lost out. Like imagine DVR before, like on actual physical media. It, it was, it was gross, but yeah. Um, I don't know. I'm sorry. I missed the name of who you said you, you were reading there, but that's fantastic.

Jeff: Yeah. That's no, no date for me was who left that one? Thank you so much for that. And what a perfect review. The VCR piece heading into this episode, little, little spoiler right there for you.

Brent: Mm. Hey, one more thing, Jeff. I think we talked about this last week. I could be wrong. You know, I've discovered here recently,

Jeff: Hmm.

Brent: people can also listen to our podcast on audible

Jeff: that amazing?

Brent: and you can leave a review on audible. You usually say go over an apple, which you should still go over at apple, but also on audible, you can leave a review there as well.

Jeff: it's pretty cool. I mean, who knew? Right? I mean, I love that we're up there with a bunch of great books and us who knew well on top of books on top of audible, you can also catch us on YouTube. And if you're listening to this, thank you so much for listening to it, but you can also see Brent and my made for podcasting faces on YouTube.

And those are

Brent: sure that that's the selling point.

Jeff: no, I, I mean, it's pretty great.

Brent: No, it's our awesome backgrounds. They

Jeff: It is. It really is.

Brent: what it is.

Jeff: Got some cool stuff going on back here, but on YouTube, we don't edit those. And normally that's like, oh God, are you serious? No, they sound great. They're good. But you get to see all the mistakes, all the stuff that like, I, I literally was gonna show up to this episode with a tin foil hat for Brent, cuz he went down, you IPO down some pretty concerning rabbit holes last time I was, you had the red yarn going and then, and then because, because the government said this thing, then it turned into this.

It was

Brent: was I wrong? Was I wrong?

Jeff: well we'll find out, we'll find out, but on YouTube, Christian Shal says, and I apologize if I pronounce that incorrectly, but Christian says, thanks guys, you've done something unexpected. You've made me want to go back and rewatch these episodes.

Brent: oh, that's cool.

Jeff: This one. I think this was, uh, I think this was infection is probably my least watched episode of season one in the multiple re watches that I've made of B five when you

Brent: I remember that one, right? I'm sorry if I remember that one, right? That was the one where we were like, this episode was garbage. And then at the 27 minute mark, it turned on a diamond was like amazing. If I, that think

Jeff: That's the one, definitely. Well, and then he says, uh, when you finish each season, it'd be interesting to hear an episode that has you talking about this season as a whole and how your opinions of some of the episodes may have changed because of what came after them. Once again, once again, thank you for the great work looking forward to next week.

Brent: Awesome. Thank you, Christian. That's amazing. Jeff. I had a YouTube comment. I wanted to read that. I found,

Jeff: Oh yeah. Okay.

Brent: yeah, I was, I was going through it. This one, this one is from Mike. I loved this one. This I, this one made me cackle. It was so good. He says this it's real short. He goes, I made the mistake of opening YouTube at 1:00 AM.

And now I can't quit. You love it, Mike.

Jeff: Well welcome, Mike. We, I don't think we can quit you either. So welcome a board

Brent: it was great. It was great. Jeff,

Jeff: Brent,

Brent: we like our games here on the show.

Jeff: a little bit, huh?

Brent: Yes. One of the show, one of the games we like is we get to the end of the show and we don't read the, the episode description or anything of the next episode. We just take the title and we make a guess as to what we thought the episode would be. But now we're bringing up the, the other part of the game where we're like, Hey, did you get it right or not?

So we have watched this week's episode. This week's episode is death Walker. We talked about it last week. What you thought it would be? Jeff, remind the folks what you said last week. It was gonna be, and were you anywhere near correct?

Jeff: So I was thinking this was gonna be what we thought infection was gonna be. So patient zero comes in and then spreads death all throughout the station. I, I was, I was completely off on this one, 100% wrong. What did you

Brent: was not, not at all. I, I, I said that this was gonna be soul hunter part two, and I was wrong. This had nothing to do with soul hunter whatsoever, but that's, that was my thought was we're finally, like soul hunter was gonna give a little redemption and it just didn't at all.

Jeff: don't know that it's going to, I mean, that's, I love your wishful thinking your optimism

Brent: Well, everybody out there keeps saying that every nothing is wasted. Everything comes back to pay off later. And that has to be the guy who's going ting big.

Jeff: that was good. That was really good. Have you been watching that one? Like you keep going back?

Brent: no. Mm-hmm um, alright Jeff, well, like I said, in today's episode, though, we are discussing death Walker. So for what the show is actually about, why don't you let the folks out there, know what death walk, what happened in this week's episode?

Jeff: Well, holy ambassador, malar it's Kosh Kosh. Remember, remember that guy Kosh he's on the station. He's interacting with people and specifically he's interacting with resident telepath, Talia winters. Now KSH is, uh, hiring, hiring her to work with one of the, one of the most obnoxious people ever to, uh, to be on babble on five, at least so far Talia we've learned is a P five.

As far as her Psi Corp rating goes, this guy is apparently a P 23, almost double that of the Psi Cops he and Kosh go back and forth for a while. It. No sense whatsoever. Bataglia eventually has vision of what we learn is one of the most traumatic events of her life. The super annoying guy who is a vicar, because like a V C tape VCR vicar.

Ha. Yeah. Yeah. So he record he records that memory.

Brent: Sorry.

Jeff: it is. But he records tally's memory and he sells it to KSH for, I don't know, maybe having a bargaining chip against her in the future or something. Well, in the obligatory opening scene where the big, bad is seen coming onto the station, our, uh, our burgeoning favorite NATA is Ja car's aid.

Just straight out whales on this lady who comes in, we'll find out later. Is called death Walker. Now this beat down, Brent, I could talk about this. It was epic. She's got a wrench and she is just going. I was con yeah, I got thoughts on that, cuz it was so, so good. Well, death Walker is the name given to Jadu the evil overlord of the near extinct or spoiler alert.

The soon to be extinct DGA, NATA has sworn an oath to kill death Walker on site because of the carnage that she's left behind and specifically the medical experi experiments that she did on her family and her grandpa Jaar stops her though from fulfilling that oath because Jao has something that the Nan want and earth also wants.

And there's probably others as well that want this Jao death walkers developed an imortality drug. Big catch on this drug though, you have to drain the life out of a person in order to form the catalyst, to make another person imortal. But even knowing that earth is still interested, the Narn are still interested.

And they're trying to get death Walker to go to their planet, to negotiate with them. The league of not affiliated worlds though, has other plans. They want her tried for her war crimes, but the council votes against it. Sinclair is the only member that votes for the trial while Kash doesn't even bother to show up the battles and the wars with the D Gar threatened most of the, not affiliated worlds in the universe, but some like the Nan and Tari and even the minbar we learn we're tied up with death Walker in one way or another earth is the one that turned the tide against the dil Gar and it's earth that she agrees to go to.

But KSH has other plans. She's heading to the jump gate, a Lon ship flies through blast, the vessel killing death Walker, and the guards accompanying her. And all cash has to say about it is you are not ready for imortality. So, Brent, what did you

Brent: Jeff. I said that I thought that this episode was gonna be soul hunter. Part two. I will tell you I was completely wrong about that. However, what I'm not wrong about is this episode is what soul hunter should have been.

Jeff: think of death Walker? Hmm. Yeah.

Brent: This was a great episode. It was so good that this episode had twists. It had turns. I wasn't exactly sure what was going on.

It had, it had psych outs, it had fake outs. It had, uh, it introduced new people, new, not people, but like new species and stuff to us, it expanded the world. It expanded the league of, of unaffiliated nations. Like we got a really good look at how they work and how they operate. Um, Kosh came in and then he pulled the ultimate Trump card move, which.

I got, I we'll probably talk about this in a little bit, but I'm not sure how I, how much I feel about Cox right now, because he sort of just seems to be like a, you guys are all beneath me type of like, and he might be legit about that. , you know, like he might actually not be wrong. Um, and like, he seems almost overpowered for, for what's going on.

And, and I was really glad to get a lot of caution this one, but overall, I, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I don't know that I'm gonna have a ton of star Trek points to this one. This was just a good episode of sci-fi that I personally enjoyed a whole lot. How about you, Jeff?

Jeff: I loved, I loved this episode and when I watched it the second time, just a little while ago, it, it feels like it's a two parter. Like it's got so much going on in it, but the, it, it doesn't feel rushed or overloaded at all, but there is, there's so much, there's so many stories and so many threads happening through the whole piece that as much as I hated the whole KSH Talia winters in, in Abbot or whatever his name was, I hated everything about that. It was kind of nice though, cuz I needed a breath in the episode with everything that was going on. I was like, okay. I can tune out. Well, whatever the heck is going on here is going on and just kind of like collate all of my thoughts. One thing I loved, like battle on five, I think gets a bad rap for its effects.

I've not been kind to it in, in past episodes. There's some moments in this episode when like, uh, there there's some of the non-affiliated ships come up and start threatening the station. It's pretty corny. But the makeup in here, death Walker's makeup was awesome. I loved it. The contacts and the way her nose was set up, just added this whole, I don't know, just like, well alienness to her.

That was so believable. I just, I don't know to me, it, it, the makeup made it work because frankly the acting was so over the top. So over the top that if it, she didn't have that makeup, I, I couldn't have stomached it.

Brent: mm-hmm

Jeff: I thought this was great. One of my big takeaways, uh, to kind of close out my opening thoughts was around how the council and the league of non-affiliated world's works.

And that's the, so the main council races that we've we've met, right? The Narn the Centara the Menari, the VLAN and the humans. They each get one vote. And then the whole league of non-affiliate. I have no idea how many non affiliated worlds, but they get one.

Brent: They get a collective one. Yeah.

Jeff: So that's six votes. That's not gonna like most committees and councils are built with an odd number or have a process for a tiebreaker.

So I'm wondering if there's some escalation process for a tie breaker or something, or if they just assume the Vore lawn are never gonna actually participate. So it's actually only five vote.

Brent: I, well, I mean, honestly from the, uh, uh, what happened in this episode? I don't, I don't think they do have a contingency plan. I just don't think it's something, they think's gonna be an issue that often, uh, although they should, you know,

Jeff: well, we've we asked the que, we've asked the question a lot about, just about everybody on here. Why, why are they here? And like, I, I, I wanna dive into that with Kosh. I, he, he has said a couple episodes ago. Um, I, I, when, when Sinclair went to Warren about the, about the home guard coming onto the station, gosh, you need to know about this.

You need to go help out. He's like, yeah, I don't care. I don't care about that. Here. We have a, an unabashed war criminal showing up just, I mean, atrocities that are unimaginable. And he's like, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't care. Until the rubber hits the road and he comes up and he's the one who's like, yeah.

I I'm unilaterally deciding what's gonna happen to this person. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't know what the heck CA is doing there. I don't understand why he's there. Hmm,

Brent: think Kosh is there almost because like he has to be, but also in a little bit of like, the police of the universe. We're the, we, we are the power. We, uh, like so far I get the idea that the VLAN and the Mumbar are like, like almost the, the elevated

Jeff: rank, two kind of, yeah. Tier one, tier two

Brent: you know, they're the more enlightened and they, they understand it better than everybody else, you know, and, and almost like the VLAN, or even that much more, maybe even further out than the Mumbar are the earthlings I'm gonna call 'em earthlings.

They honestly seem very new on this whole stage to me compared to everybody else. Uh, and then, you know, you get the Narn in the, in the entire, they're often their own little world doing their deal. Right. So, And then you have the league of non affiliated worlds, which honestly, they all seemed pretty affiliated with each other to me.

So what do I know? But that's almost what it feels like to me. Like why is he here? He's here to make sure that these other worlds don't screw everything up too bad.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: Like I'll let you'all destroy yourselves, but when it starts affecting everything, that's what I'm gonna step in.

Jeff: so almost

Brent: Like that's what it almost feels like to me.

Jeff: like they're up there kissing on the edge of potential imortality and he's like, Nope, you couldn't solve your problem in your cute little counsel. So we got this, this ain't gonna happen.

Brent: We're gonna take this away from you. You don't get to have this mom and dad say no,

Jeff: Yeah. May maybe

Brent: you know, because let Dylan wasn't there. Right. This, everything was through her, her little ambassador and he's, he's obviously not ready to take the reins yet.

Jeff: that guy wasn't ready to even be sitting at the table. I mean, and, and, okay. So he walks in and telegraphed totally what his, you know, uh, Dylan can't make it, I'll be here with her vote and I've been given instructions and then walks off and like, oh, okay. So he is voting no clearly know clearly, but I thought it was cool how he stuck around to apologize and explain why, but, but also, like, it was just obvious.

He, I don't know, maybe he's more, he, he's more an academic, a little more like into the books, into the, the wisdom of things, as opposed to the application of things where D's been in it,

Brent: right. Well, he's not a Satie until Lynn

Jeff: Yeah. It's true.

Brent: you know, so, but yeah, KSH, that's almost what it feels like to me at this point with him is that he's he's there he's there as like a fail safe, like when they screw everything up, he'll be the one who steps in, but outside, if it means they destroy themselves then cool.

But. He's gonna put certain limits on him. That's

Jeff: I think that says a lot. Like if we, if we take that as being true and I don't see a reason not to, but like, he was fine with hate groups coming on board and assaulting and killing aliens. He was fine with the Nan, uh, tacking Rish three and, uh, you know, pushing the centar out. The, the line that we know right now is is imortality.


Brent: right, right. There was a, um, there's a species in the Stargate universe that, that is like that. Where there, the sort of ascended, you know, we are on the next plane than you are, and we'll let you guys destroy yourselves. We don't care, but it, and we're not supposed to interfere. You guys just sort of do your own thing.

We're we're not even worried about you. What, what was that line from game of Thrones? Lions, don't worry about what's going on with the sheep or something like that. Like it it's that sort of almost hottiness and there becomes a conflict of what happens when one of 'em does want to start interfering with, you know, the mere mortal, physical corpor beings down there.

And that's almost like it's almost on that level to meet with KSH, but, and, and I think it almost has to be because he's a ball of energy, he's a Mein,

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Like, so anyway,

Jeff: Look it up. Look it up. If you don't know me Doon, it's a star Trek thing.

Brent: seriously. Um, alright, so I, I want, can we talk, can we finish out the caution thing? Cause I wanna talk about him and Talia real quick.

Let's let's and then we'll dive back

Jeff: Yeah. Cause I think, I think just to kind of wrap that too, I think on the ascended piece, right? With the Talia thing, I'm handing you a segue here, by the way, is he talks about things like this will be at the hour of scattering and the what? Like he doesn't even, doesn't even keep time in a, in a same, like he's literally like communicating at this different level that I loved.

I love Talia. She's

Brent: Or was he or, or was he just trying to confuse Talia the whole

Jeff: Maybe I did love where she just literally she's like, she just puts her hand, like her face in and she's like, oh dear God. Oh, whatever dude.

Brent: Right. So O okay. More purely observational. We got a really good long look at K in his suit and how his suit looks.

Jeff: Yeah, Uhhuh. Well,

Brent: Jeff, this is supposed to be a family friendly show. It looked obscene to me. Absolutely. Like the little thing that was sticking out and he had his little mouth, like, it looked like. I should not have my seven year old around watching this show with me.


Jeff: I'll tell you, and this is one, if you've got your seven year old around just, you know, real quick, uh, headphones, because not every species keeps their genitals in the same place. That was also a star Trek reference. Yeah, that was . Yeah, that was exactly my thought too. They're just,

Brent: I understood that reference

Jeff: they're just wagging around, you know, it's like, what is, what is going on here?

Brent: I mean, I think it's supposed to be his mouth. I think it's supposed to be however he communicates. I think I'm not entirely sure. Obviously, obviously that thing is not genitals. That is part of a suit, right. Or at least I think that's what we assume, but I don't know. I

Jeff: Well, yeah, cuz in, uh, in, in the war, prayer, I think it was, they talked about how in this encounter suit he's completely sealed off. So I've gotta guess it's it's either that, how he talks or it's uh, uh, ventilation like atmosphere exchange or something like that.

Brent: Oh, that could make sense. That could make sense. It just didn't look right. How this got past network executives, how, how this got through production design and somebody didn't like, yo dude, that thing looks like a thing. Have you, have you seen the original drawing of the little mermaid castle? It kind of looks like one of those.

So anyway, I just, I have to bring it up because we're watching this 30 years later. I'm just being honest. Okay. Why, so you, you explained really well what happened with KA and Talia and this whole deal? Um, he's doing this whole thing to get something on her

Jeff: I guess

Brent: to get her greatest fear, her worst memory, her,

Jeff: something.

Brent: whatever it is. My biggest thought coming out of that for whatever reason is how much did he pay for that in the end? And I'm gonna bring this background to not just money, but because. What he paid her

Jeff: Yeah. Mm-hmm,

Brent: to come be a part of this whole thing was apparently astronomical, like, or not. Astronom like, it was very generous. It was big and goodness knows how much he had to pay

Jeff: Do Abbot or whatever his name.

Brent: Right. For the memory Kiel and to come in and, and Hey, do you, dude, come in, we're gonna, we're gonna mess with her mind and you're gonna record something and give it to me. He had to pay a lot of money for that.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: Right. And I don't know if money's a thing for him or not, but whatever he still had to pay. Why is it so important that he's going to invest those kinds of resources in it?

That's my question right now, coming out of this, like from a storytelling standpoint, I thought it was super clever. Now the, the, the makeup and the dude's head thing and all that, like, okay, I'll forgive it. It's 1990s. Like it's early nineties. You've have my forgiveness. That's the TV I grew up in. So I'm cool with it.

My kids would be like, dad this's is so lame. You know, well, it was a little bit, but the, the, like the, just the kid I love, I love when you have an episode that has such great rewatch ability that when you go back and watch it a second time and you know, what's going on, you see it. But the first time you're going through it, you don't see it at all.

And like, this was just a, what's he doing? What is going on? Why is he being so weird? What are they talking about? You know? And Abbot's like hitting. Antalia like, Hey, let's go have lunch. Let's go have

Jeff: Which I think was all that part of just setting her off

Brent: something right.

Jeff: There was a cool, there was a cool moment when she had confronted him and she's like, dude, what is this all about? What are you actually negotiating for? And he said, um, it's not good to reflect too much said like, he's like you, I could tell you, but it's not good to reflect too much.

And then that's when she got her first view of, of her, you know, interaction with the serial killer. Like he totally answered her watching it the first time. You're just like what this is, but the second time he totally answered her question. Look at that.

Brent: right. So just to get it out there so we can talk about it. What was her actual vision that got recorded that got sent over to

Jeff: So one of her early jobs as a Cy telepath, and the whole thing was to inhabit the mind, go through the mind of a serial killer. And in that experience, she'd experienced the death of, of people and, and, and his, um, aggression towards the people that, that, that he had killed.

Brent: So why, why was that important to Kosh to get

Jeff: the question. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you what if we get to the end of this series. So in 101, some odd episodes from now, and we get to the end of this and this hasn't paid off. I'm gonna be furious, Brent. I mean, we sat through a good, what, 10 minutes of this stuff, if it does. Mm I'm planting my flag.

Now I will, I will write a sternly worded letter to someone

Brent: yeah. I, I think it's going to though, and this is just based on what, we've the feedback we've heard from the fans out there that nothing is wasted and, and this is such a large part of this episode that it has to come back and that's, that's the thing, you know, I, I know I've harped on the whole, a plot B plot and how they aren't even connected at all these two, once again, not connected at. Not even in the same atmosphere, but in Babylon five, what we're told is, is that usually the blot does something to further characters and then they come back to it.

I'm assuming as an, a plot later on. Right? So this sets something up to set in motion. I would think it has to come back. Jeff. Now the people out there listening are going, of course it does. It's an episode 18 or, or whatever, you know,

Jeff: around, it's

Brent: or wait until next episode next week, y'all get it. Like, I don't know what it

Jeff: Yeah, I just got through the whole

Brent: it's, it's going to come back.

But for now, honestly, this might be my number one mystery in the show. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, like, because last week we got the whole thing with Sinclair and what happened to him when he had that little mind wipe, we know he was captured by the, by the Mbar and he was tortured for three days. They at some point wiped his mind now, why did they, why did they still pull back?

What ultimately made them pull back? That's there, but that's a little, I feel like that's gonna be underlying for a lot longer. This one feels like this could be like, what's S up to this is, this is my, like, okay, I'll let that one sit. What's cautious is up to something and I need to know

Jeff: here's my conspiracy theory.

Brent: You got a theory.

Jeff: Okay. So you're right. The VLAN and Kosh are, there is kind of the great, the, the, the, the parents of the whole thing going on. He saw, he was aware of the whole iron heart thing that went on and where he ascended and became he became, and that he gave a gift to Talia couple that, with what we now know, the Cy core, getting into everything in, in earth politics and whatnot.

He's setting up something with Talia where Talia's gonna be his agent on the inside. And so this is his blackmail to go in and say, at first, he's gonna try and like, sell her on it. Hey, I need you to go do this. I need you to this. When she comes back and says, no, she'll ha there'll be this black male. And ultimately this is gonna lead to something we're like, I don't know.

Talia has to try and assassinate the president of earth or the head of Cyco. This is gonna be cautious way of shutting down all the stuff Cyco is trying to do

Brent: here for it. I love it. I'm here for every single bit of that.

Jeff: and if it's anything less than that, I will be furious.

Brent: It probably has absolutely nothing to do with that, but I'm here for it. If that's

Jeff: I love though with stuff paying off, there's been, these little seeds dropped the whole time. I mean, some huge, a whole episode, midnight on the firing line between the Centara and the Narn. But in this one, when Jaar is telling NATA to, to chill out. You're not gonna get to fulfill your blood oath cuz of this.

He also said like he almost pulled a line straight from Conan the barbarian when he is like, we are here to crush our enemies to see them driven before us. Like he just outright said it. And I, and I gotta say too, I don't think we've talked about this on the, on the podcast, but the actor that plays Jaar is Tomma lock in the next generation.

The greatest Rolin of them all it's Tomma lock. Yeah.

Brent: That's

Jeff: Yes. Oh, you didn't you. Yes. Yeah. And in this episode he was so Tomma lock. Like all you gotta do is put less makeup on him, some ears and then massive, massive shoulder pads. and you've got Tomma lock walking around by on

Brent: well, not just that, but you gotta, you gotta cover it with the, the sound padding you have behind you

Jeff: it's so

Brent: as well.

Jeff: that outfit. Yeah, he was great. I loved Jaar. I loved Ja. I love Kar period. Loved him in this episode. But as I was watching it the whole time, I'm just like, he's Toma lock right now. Like, everything he's doing is politics, his aggression, his behind the scenes kind of manipulation of both Jao and NATA was just, oh, was great.

So good

Brent: all right. I wanna talk about this couple episodes ago. I had a question. Can people just beat up each other on Babylon five, right in front of the station commander and then have no repercussions whatsoever. Apparently that's only if you are one of the ambassadors, cuz if you're one of the ambassadors insistence, you, you better keep your hands to yourself because she got busted

Jeff: right away too.

Brent: Yeah. Now there might, I mean, she should have been in jail and not let out of jail, frankly. There might have been some, uh, what do they call it? The ambassador thing, diplomatic immunity or something like that? Which no, but okay, fine. But at least something happened, like at least the police came and, and did something, but man, she beat the ever love and snot out of the lake and she surprised her and was like, wow.

Jeff: it was awesome. She just came death Walker and just started laying left and right. Saw the wrench, grabbed it. I mean, it was just, I, when, because it, it went to, uh, it went to theme just after they kind of pulled her off and she just got one off boom. When they pulled her, I'm like, there's no way, no way that person's still alive.

And I thought it was cool how they even caught that like, wow, her metabolism is amazing

Brent: amazing.

Jeff: this, but oh yeah. She just ripped into, and Garabaldi, I thought was great where he's just like, You're gonna, what did he say? You're gonna spend so much time behind bars. Your, your spots will turn gray or something like that.

It's just like, yeah. Gar baldie. Give it to her

Brent: Give it throw the book at her. Let me ask a question. How long did it take you to realize that death Walker was a specific person and not like a type of a person or like a person who belongs to a group or something like that, but it actually is like, it is a name for a specific person

Jeff: basically. And when they explicitly told me that it

Brent: that it was her. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cause I was like, I, I kept waiting like, oh, what are the death walkers? Who are they? Like, you know, you just have this, this blood packed against anyone. Who's a death Walker. Oh no, no, no, no. It's this actual person because, okay. So she is basically the, what, what's the name of the Nazi doctor that was in charge of everything and all the experiment.

Jeff: Oh, my gosh. I feel like so ignorant with you just pulling and it's, uh, there's uh, there will be some editing done here, YouTube. Um, this cause I can't believe, I

Brent: what it was.

Jeff: It's not GU balls. He was the, uh, oh my God.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I feel like, yeah.

I'm literally gonna look it up and be like, oh my God. Of course.

Even just looking it up. It's not like he was that terrifying guy. Wow. This is Manola Yos MLA. Okay. So come back in with that. That

Brent: Right. Um,

Jeff: was, uh, uh, Yos, Yos Manola

Brent: right. That guy right there, um, that that's kind of who she's supposed to be. Uh, Stargate had a similar person, uh, I forget her name and I'm not gonna go through it right now, but there, there was a whole thing about her star Trek. Voyager had the same person in chromo set. Uh, it,

Jeff: I feel like I don't have to give you that cuz you're you're going through a bunch of them. So

Brent: right, right. Well, no, give it to me cuz it, cuz it counts.

Um, but you know, he was a, a Kardashian who experimented on Bejo and, and uh, basically like he gained all this medical knowledge, but at their expense and he had zero qualms with it. And that was, that was who this person was. Um, man, this one took me on a ride though to go down the story of death Walker because at first she seems rather unassuming.

And then it's oh no, no. She actually is this person and it all looks like that. And she's like, oh no, no. Yeah. That's exactly who I like, people didn't believe it was her, even when she said, no, no, no, this is me. And here's my DNA. And my DNA says it. Yeah. I still don't really believe it. Okay. This is who she is, but this, she starts talking about it.

She's got this thing. That's gonna help people be immortal. And almost like, it's this redemptive thing for her. And that keeps going through and people are like, no, something's not right. Something's not right. And then all of a sudden it, it drops like, no, no, no, this isn't, this isn't redemption for her.

This is her being her. And it's her like ultimate lifelong F U I guess, to, to everybody out there of like, my work's gonna continue even after I die. And you know, it was, it was so villainous.

Jeff: I loved it when she said the, the, the, the people that curse us will be the people that, that hold us up as heroes in there. And so it was just, it was exactly that her ultimate F you of just, yep. Hey, I murdered all these people and now I'm a hero because of it. Oof. I think a big part of what made her work before we dive into what I think is, I think there were a couple huge themes in this one that we can touch on before getting into closing thoughts.

Cuz I like to talk through at least one of them, but the actor who played death Walker, like I said, Just egregious overacting, but played, uh, the, the actor played SA in Superman two, the, uh, like the, you know, general Zod and, um, the other big guy, the one that Superman put in the little glass container that woo went off.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: So played her. And then if you ever watched V or V the final battle, she played Pamela who came in to be, uh, Diana's foil on the visitor's side of things. So, I mean, just awesome, awesome

Brent: I never saw that one, but yeah, I know you're talking about with the other.

Jeff: It was so good.

Brent: Like I was, I was kind of sitting. I was like, whoa, would she be really old for that? And I was like, oh no, that's probably about that.

Jeff: Mm-hmm

Brent: Yeah. That's about right. So yeah. Mm-hmm,

Jeff: but I think it was one of the big themes of this episode, like you said, redemption. Right. And Sinclair makes the, I don't know if he's trying to make the case or if he's just kind of playing devil's advocate, but he, he he's talking to GU Baldy and he says, yeah, she did all these horrible things, but.

If her work is able, she could save more lives than were lost because of her than were, that were killed because of her. Does that almost make up for all of her atrocities it, to me, it just really brought up the question of justice. Is it justice or is it vengeance? And when the league of non-affiliated worlds wanted her tried for her war crimes, like I was looking forward to that because they could have explored that.

What is justice for her? What is vengeance now at the end of the thing that you said it was, she was just like, this is total evil, horrible villain kind of stuff to do, but it posed that huge question.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: What's the right thing to do in a situation like IVA, I think did a great job passing it off where she's like is as dubious as Earth's opinions are on this.

I think they're better outfitted, better equipped to handle something of this magnitude.

Brent: Mm-hmm Jeff track with me on this. I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take you down a wild rabbit hole, but it's gonna come back. I promise. All right. Have you ever seen the movie frozen?

Jeff: oh yeah.

Brent: You have a

Jeff: I have a daughter, so yeah,

Brent: the movie frozen. Do you know, do you know what is the absolute worst line in all of frozen?

Jeff: I'm gonna let you gimme that

Brent: I, I cannot stand this line.

I hear it every single time. It's it's in the song. Fix her upper, where Kristoff and Anna are back with the trolls and they're singing and they're trying to get, 'em all hooked up and, and like mama troll or something gets to this one line. And she's like, we're not saying you can change him cuz people don't really change. I hate that line because I don't believe that that's true at all. And that honestly, that's not a message I want spreading to my children now. I, I love frozen. I, there is a lot of stuff about frozen that I do want spreading to my children, but that particular line I wish we could pull out because I gotta tell you I'm a big sucker for redemption stories.

I know this makes me rare in this day and age, but I am a big believer in the, in the idea that people can change. I'm not saying they do, but that they can. Okay. I am by do. I mean, I'm not saying they always do right. Um, frankly, I have to believe that because otherwise I'm still a really bad dude. I'm in my forties now 20 years ago.

I am not the same person as I am today. 10 years ago. I'm not the same person as I am today. I am a growing, changing, evolving being. And in 10 years I won't be then who I am now. And I think that's the way it's supposed to be, to be quite Frank with you. But when I look back on my life and the things I did when I was younger and who I was now, I was not death Walker. Okay. I take the fifth. Um, but there are, are a lot of things in my life. I'm not proud of. You know, there are people that, uh, live in my wake, so to speak and there's nothing I can do to change that. Um, Outside of ask for forgiveness and try to make amends as best I can. And honestly, in some cases just stay out of their life so they don't have to have me around.

Okay. Um, I have changed. I am a changed person today. I have to believe people can change. Otherwise. Like I said, I'm still that same guy. I love redemption stories. Right. I really wanted this to be that kind of a story I really did. I was tracking along with it, tracking along with it. And when it turned and it's not a redemption story, this is actually like, uh, no, no, no.

She's still in her thing. I loved it. I really did because, because it got me because I thought it was going someplace and it turned in and I mean, her, her plan was. Perfect for her character. It was amazing. And how she brought people there. But at the same time I was, I was, I can't say disappointed. That's not the right word, but I was, I was a little shocked.

It wasn't a redemption story, cuz I was, I was about to bring in a whole different discussion to this podcast, with that, you know, be, but I, the twist at the end of this episode is my favorite twist. We've seen so far in Babylon five because it got me. I did not expect this to go where it went and when it took me there, I didn't mind, you know, sometimes, sometimes you're watching a show, you're watching a movie and they're going, they're going along, going along.

And then they, they put in a twist and you're like, that's not where I wanted to go. Like, I'm not okay going there with you because that's not okay. This one, I was perfectly fine to go there. It was a fantastic episode. Start to finish. I don't know that it had a whole lot of. Message maybe, but I very much enjoyed the, the, where we were going and I, I hope maybe one day we get an actual redemption story that we can really talk

Jeff: Well, I think, I think I'm, I'm so on board because if it had been a redemption story, it would've been so many other episodes of sci-fi out there. And I think, I think that sometimes you have to have a not great ending because we, we experience those a lot in life. Now in my, in my day job that I do, uh, I'm I'm the background check expert for one of the largest public sector agencies on the west coast.

I've written legislation I've been in front of the federal government in the United States talking about background checks, which sounds so boring. but it's fascinating. And it's so appropriate to this conversation because it's exactly. That there's two types of background checks. There's a background check that affirms that people can change and can have redemption.

And there's a type of background check that says once a thief, always a thief basically, and both of those things exist in our society. And what's hard is the term background check comes up today and immediately people start thinking about firearms and guns and things like that. And that's definitely a part of the conversation, but what's difficult for me is someone who actually understands the, the statistics, the science, some of the psychology around that redemption is that you're exactly right.

Brent. Most, most people can change. Many people do change and quite a few don't as well, but there can't be one single answer. And it can't be like what the league of non-affiliated worlds wanted to hear where they, they wanted her. I mean, they wanted her strung up. They wanted this basically public execution that was sanctioned by the council when they didn't get.

They picked up their ball and they went home. Well, we're not gonna play this game anymore. I thought that was such that coupled up with a quote that I'll bring up in my closing thoughts on this were such a of modern day democracies or what we call democracies where they're just like, oh, I didn't get my way fine, but I'm not gonna play anymore.


Brent: so I, I'm sorry if I'm interrupting, but to piggyback on what you're saying there, and I've had this thought a lot. All right. Let's go into politics just a little bit. We're star Trek, podcasters. Guess what we get into that? The, the number one problem that I see with American politics, and I'm speaking this as an American citizen broadcasting from America, this is just what I'm familiar with.

Anybody else out there who's overseas. I'm sorry. I don't know what's going on in your country because I'm a Merk. Um, but we were, as a country, we were founded on the idea of compromise getting two people together in a room, letting them talk it out and come up with an answer that neither side is really satisfied with. Right.

Jeff: it's lose, lose, not win, win,

Brent: right. But we're gonna be able to, even though we are different people fundamentally have different views on everything. We're still gonna be able to come together and we'll figure out something in order to move forward together. And in the last, I'd say 10 years. Maybe 15, there has been this deal where I have noticed, and it's it started in government, but I've also seen it in society as a whole.

That if you don't do it the way I do, then we're just not even gonna talk. We're gonna shut the whole thing down. And I'm seeing this on both sides of the aisle

Jeff: Like, yeah. Mm.

Brent: and, and people can point blame it at E each side. The truth is, and I'm not trying to be one of these people. Well, you know, both sides were bad.

I'm not trying to be that guy. Okay. I'm legitimately observing, going. You guys have sat back and said, if you don't do what I want, what we're gonna do, we're gonna Stonewall everything as has the other side. And we can't move forward. The only time we can now move forward is when one party is in control of the holding government. And sometimes that's not even moving forward, that's moving backward as we've recently seen. So , you know, you, you have to be able to come together and what you just said there, because you're not gonna do what we want to do. We're gonna pick up our ball and go home. That is so dangerous. You have to be committed to the table, right.

When you're coming together in an ambassadorial way, you have to be committed to the table where I may not get my way, but I'm going to stay at the table because you have to have a, because guess what, if you leave, you don't have a voice anymore.

Jeff: that's the thing, ambassador, Kaka. I think her name was who kind of, who led the charge when

Brent: the one I'm sorry, was she the one that, that almost got killed by Sinclair, but then

Jeff: same species, same species, different person, different actor. In fact, super side. Quick note, this actor who played this one was played by Robin Curtis who's, uh, SIC and star Trek three there's there's my three right there, but yeah, that's S

Brent: Oh, SP baby

Jeff: Uhhuh . Yeah.

Brent: mm-hmm

Jeff: It's kind of fun, great for the role, but when they lost that vote in front of the council, she says, and BA, uh, Sinclair, you said we would have a voice.

What if, if we're not gonna be her and our voice, isn't gonna be heard, then we're gonna go. And I'm sitting here as a person, a bureaucrat who works within these like legislative and, you know, governing council things. You did have your voice and it, it was one vote and you were outvoted. So don't take your ball and go home, come up with a new, like you said, come up with a compromise, come up with a new proposal, try and find a different way of presenting this cuz that's how your voice is represented in a real democracy.

Brent: Mm-hmm so Jeff with that, because I feel like we're now into that zone. Um, let's talk about this in terms of deltas, because what you just described there to me is I'm not gonna talk about it. I'm just gonna pick up my ball and go home, frankly. I can't think of anything more anti star Trek and I just anti star Trek.

But that, that whole message, you know of, we gotta talk it out. We gotta compromise. I can't think of anything more against that than what you just described. So I will ask you to boil this down for us, Jeff. And does this show have any of that star Trek equality not comparing it to star Trek, just that moral, that hope for the future, does it, does it do what sci-fi should do, especially this show, which feels like it should have some sort of message to it.

Um, so do that. We're gonna grade it Delta zero to five deltas and let us know Jeff, should we have watched it sooner?

Jeff: I, I think we should have watched this one sooner. I think this says so much about how the world of Babylon five works. Like just as a, as a government wonk, you know, somebody who loves the legislative process and everything actually seen it in action. It explains a lot. And I think after our conversation, it tells me so much more about, I think, where every race sits on the main council now, including the VLAN, you know?

So I think, yeah, definitely should have watched it sooner. I did watch it twice. I'm probably gonna watch this one again. I really, really like this episode,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: but like I said, Sinclair asks a couple really great questions in here. He poses the justice versus redemption or justice versus vengeance question, but he also talks about if we'll ever get past the paradigm of the little powers at the mercy of big powers and like we've been talking about it.

I think that puts that indicts. Our modern interpretations of democracy, whether it's a Republic or the United nations or whatever. And we saw through this episode, what, what happens when people don't and, and I think to your earlier point, what we saw happen in this episode, we're seeing happen in politics.

Now we have parties that are walking out of legislative sessions and state houses, so that we're not gonna play. We're just gonna walk away. We're just not even gonna play anymore. We're seeing this happen. What I think was great though, is,

Brent: Well, let me, I'm sorry. Let me, who's doing what Kar did in this episode, which says, Hey, if you gimme what I want, I'll vote your way. Give me what I, oh, you're not gonna vote. My you're not gonna do that. Then I'm gonna go this way.

Jeff: When I, oh my gosh, he stands up. He's like the, the Narn, the Narn regime very much understands the atrocities. We, we sympathize with our, with our neighbors and we will proudly vote. Yes. Under one condition and then they're like, no way, we're not gonna let her be extradited. Oh, well then we have to vote.

No. Oh man. That was so good.

Brent: oh my, I mean, you, you're not voting for what's right. You're voting for what's good. Like not even good for you, honestly. Like that's just

Jeff: if you hold Ja car in that versus Sinclair where the league walked away, they went away. But Sinclair's like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's talk. Here's what I want to propose. Here's the compromise. Right? You can have oversight. You can be a part of this. And when we get to a point where this is done, you can have her, you can have your trial, we'll both get what we want.

You'll have oversight. Like it was really, this episode was more about politicking almost than anything else, even though it had a lot of great stuff. I think, I think it posed the great questions that we've talked about. I think the thing we didn't talk about a lot that was big in here is it talked about how easy it is to sell out.

On what the right, doing the right thing to protect yourself. Lanere when he, he even said, he's like, yeah, way back. We, we got these horrifying weapons from death Walker. We were gonna use against earth. It was a long time ago. We didn't use those weapons, but it's too embarrassing to let people know that we stooped to that level.

And so we're not gonna let her be tried for her war crimes. Ultimately I think that this episode posed awesome star Trek, like questions. It didn't dive into 'em and it didn't offer, offer a lot on it. Um, with that, I'm gonna give it two deltas cuz it posed them and I've dealt it a couple times on optimism where I think we're going to explore some of these questions in more detail.

Brent: Jeff. I think you put it absolutely perfectly.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: It posed them, but it didn't dive into them. And that if I have a problem, if I have a knit to pick about this episode, that explains it. I don't know that I had wor thank you for that. Cuz I didn't have words for it. Like, like I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but that's it because it does pose a lot of great questions that like, I want you to go into this.

I want you to make a comment on it, make a stance one way or the other, just have a stance and do it. And they just didn't, you know, and the other question that as a person who believes in redemption, you guys heard my diatribe earlier. At some point, you also have to be responsible for the consequences of your

Jeff: Mm-hmm

Brent: You just do like that's and, and redemption doesn't necessarily absolve you of that, uh, re responsibility, uh,

Jeff: Obligation.

Brent: accountability. Yeah. It doesn't absolve you of that. It can help mitigate some of that. And then you have to start talking about the ideas of forgiveness and what does that, what does that mean to have somebody whom you have hurt?

I'm not even gonna say the word offended. Someone you have hurt to give you forgiveness. You know what I mean? Like, and what do you do when that person absolutely has zero interest in doing any kind of forgiveness? They just want to hurt you because you hurt them. Is that right? Is that fair? Is that justice?

Is that actually justice? I don't know. That's a different conversation to have. They could have

Jeff: They could have had it.

Brent: They didn't go down that route and that's okay. It's a 42 minute show. I'll give it to 'em. Um, you said two deltas. I'm gonna agree with you. I was about to give it like one, but it definitely took us down those roots of asking the questions. I think star Trek does it best actually not star Trek sci-fi does it best when they ask the questions when they explore them, but then don't answer them, leave that to the audience, but you have to explore it. You have to send your characters down that journey and they just didn't do that here, but they started it.

So two deltas. I, I, I think that's pretty good and yeah, absolutely. We should have watched this one a lot sooner.

Jeff: know, I think too, after kind of hearing you talk a little more, it makes me think that what this did, it doesn't make it more star Trek. By any means, but it, in the evolution of storytelling, star Trek is able to present the question, dive into it and often leave it, leave it for us to decide. Not always, but often what this did is it asked the question and then it demonstrated to us why we as a society in today's world, aren't answering these questions because we let things like politics.

We let things like deals. We made 10, 15 years ago, get in the way of doing the right thing. So it doesn't change my score in any way, but it just adds that context of, we have people asking these questions all the time in our society. We're never getting answers to it. And I think this episode of babble on five showed us.

Brent: right, Jeff. I think that's gonna do our conversation here on death Walker. What are we watching

Jeff: Ah, so next week, and again, Brent said this at the beginning, we only know the name, this isn't a fun game we like to play. We're gonna guess what we think it's about based on the name itself. So Brent, next week we're watching believers. What do you think believers is gonna be about?

Brent: I think it's about a kid examining or maybe an old man. Sorry, not a kid, an old man examining his life, uh, as

Jeff: Oh,

Brent: a boxer and facing himself throughout the course of his life. If you don't know what I'm currently describing is the music video to the song believer by imagine dragons,

Jeff: that's not all you're describing. It's also an episode of star Trek, voy.

Brent: Is it what

Jeff: that's, when Chikota is like doing the boxer thing and yeah.

Brent: totally right.

Jeff: I gave you the buzz. I mean, it's the imagined dragons for sure. But I had

Brent: I thought you were just telling me to shut up and move on. um, uh, believers, I mean this, listen, this show dives into faith. It dives into religion on some level. Uh, even if it's like be a physical or existential religion, I think this has to go back to something of that nature believers or it's, it's more political.

Do you like, do you really believe in earth first? You're a believer or something like that? Like it's it's I think it's gotta go down that realm. Like, unless it literally has nothing to do with believe, like remember parliament of dreams, it had nothing to do with a parliament or dreams. Like it could be like, this has nothing to do with believing

Jeff: This is gonna be about business on the Zocalo and how, you know, how the trade Federation or whatever works in there.

Brent: right.

Jeff: I dunno.

Brent: These are believers in economy,

Jeff: Now I'm not far off on my guess. I'm guessing cultists of some kind. Yeah. Some sort of culty

Brent: Maybe this one will be soul hunter.

Jeff: maybe. Yeah. We, you just keep calling it

Brent: until we get there until

Jeff: now. We're gonna find out right here next week.

Thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on, and please stop by apple. Stop by audible and give us that rating and review. We're gonna read it here on the, uh, podcast. We're also gonna give you some love and share that through our Twitter at Babylon first.

And so until next time I will gladly vote yes. On your proposals. Brent, if you will only let me say live long

Brent: we get there, it's gotta come back. Right? Jeff, not a star Trek podcast.

Jeff: then my vote is no.