March 13, 2023

Divided Loyalties

The return we didn't know we were waiting for

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Psi Corp is honestly the worst. Jeff and Brent wonder if they are true evil and both want more of evil (SPOILER)!

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five For the first time, we are two veteran Star Trek podcasters. Who have collectively produced nearly 15 to hundred episodes of podcast, most of them about Star Trek.

And we are watching Babylon five for the very first time, making a podcast about this show. And what we've decided to do is take that analytical lens we've gained as Star Trek podcasters and apply it to another sci-fi show to see if this show holds up that same mirror to society. Does it give us a hope for the future?

And do we like

Jeff: this series? And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are Star Trek podcasters. And so those references are gonna creep up from time to time. So we play the rule of three. That means each one of us get three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those three.

Now substitutions, exchanges are really fun. Now, Brent, I've got some great news for you. What's that? We've got a five star review. Oh yes. This one's on Apple Podcast. It's from Pier Hugo and Pier. Hugo says, I'm a big fan of the Babylon five series. I think I've listened to each episode at least 47 times.

Thanks for the , which I mean, I'm willing to lay down some money right now. Pier Hugo is also a fan of Be Me Up a Star Trek podcast. That's a little wine of yours, isn't it? That'd be awesome.

Brent: Yeah, we, oh, we, we tracked all the 40 sevens. Yeah, that's good. Oh, totally. That's a, that's a great, that's a great deep cut.

I like it. Pier

Jeff: Hugo goes

Brent: on to say, you know what that's like, I'm sorry, Jeff. You know what that's like? Hmm. That's like, that's like what we call Club 65. Exactly. Like if you know what Club 65 is, you're in the club. If you don't know what Club 65 is, your like, it's it, it's a fight club thing. Like if you know, you know, if you don't then you don't.

And how do you know? Well,

Jeff: you know, you just gotta ,

Brent: We don't talk about it. The first pool of Club 65 is, We don't talk about Club

Jeff: 65. And if you do, Brad Pitt's gonna show up. , he's gonna give you a bloody nose. Bust your face open. Turn into

Brent: Ed Norton at the, Sorry, did you just give, did

Jeff: you just spoil Fight Club?

No. Okay. Just making sure. Well, Pier Hugo Pier Hugo goes on to say, Thanks to this superb podcast, I can relive this superb series through their eyes as if it were the first time they even allowed me to see certain episodes from a different perspective. Thank you very much for what you do. Well, Pierre,

Brent: you're very welcome for what we do.

Uh, yeah, that's, I, that's a big, big part of the whole thing is trying to see it through the eyes of a first time. You know what I'm recently becoming, I think aware of though Jeff Hmm. Is, you know, what's gotta be just as good as the first. What's that second time? I think the

Jeff: second time's almost like maybe

Brent: a little better, right?

Yeah, a little bit. Because, Because then we'll know what everybody else knows and then we'll be able to watch and pick up all the stuff that we're like missing, you know, the first time around.

Jeff: So. Exactly. Well, hey, I've got one more for us today and it's another five star review. Yes. Also on Apple Podcast.

This one's from Wacky vlan, and I'm pretty sure we've shared some tweets from Wacky Vlan in the past on here. That's a name you don't forget what's Upy Wacky says. This is probably my favorite podcast right now. I love that they do a deep discussion of the episode, Something which babble on five has always sparked their insights as fan of other works of science fiction.

Help them see what Babylon five does well and how it fits into the larger genre. Highly recommend I eagerly await each new episode. There's so many scenes that I'm excited to hear their reaction to. .

Brent: Awesome. Wy, thank you so much. And, uh, we're excited to get there and give you those scenes even though if we don't know what they are.

So, Hey Jeff, you know, uh, we, we play our games here in the show. We sure do. Along with the rule of three. We've got a few others, and one of those games is where we get to the end of the show. We don't have a name for this game. We could, we should, you know, we should, we should have a named the Game Game.

Jeff: Yeah. We're gonna come up, we're talking here in a minute. We're almost to the end of the second season. Maybe that's a thing to debut in the third season is a name, a name for this game. Maybe

Brent: we talk to our patrons about. It's a good idea. That'd be cool. Anyway. Uh, but this game is one where we like to try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be based on title alone.

Never having seen it before. Never reading show descriptions, not even looking at thumbnails or anything like that. Just what does the title tell you it's going to be about. And this is the part of the show where, where it's time to pay the piper. And see exactly how close we got or how far away we got last week in judging or in guessing what this week is gonna be about.

So Jeff, do you wanna go first or should I talking about divided loyalties? Cuz this is a fun one.

Jeff: Well, I think on this one we get to not only divide loyalties, we get to divide full credit on this one. Nailed it. I mean, yeah. Oh my gosh. Someone's got like, Yeah,

Brent: so, So at first, well, and the order we went last week.

First I said this was gonna be a lawn do episode and it had to do with him being divided between sonari and like what's right and all that kind of stuff. That's completely not what this was about. And then you said, I think it's tall, you Winters. And you, you were going more down the, the idea of she's removing the pin and she's separating herself from

Jeff: Cyco.

Yeah. That and Night Watch, I thought Night Watch was gonna be a part of it more than it was. Oh, I forgot about Night

Brent: watch. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then that triggered something in me because I'd, I'd been sitting here thinking like Dr. Dr. Kyle Leeta, Alexander, Michael Sinclair, these characters who have kind of come and gone, like, they haven't killed them.

So they're still out there somewhere. And we saw Sinclair come back that one time. Mm-hmm. like, and I was just like, Oh, but if Talia goes away, they're gonna have to send a new Cyco representative to the station. What if that was le coming back? I also think I might have said Bester or something. Yeah, yeah.

Like what, what if it was Bester? Um, but oh my God, I nailed Lea . Now again, that came in a completely different context than what I thought. Cause I thought she would be coming in to replace Talia. Um, not expose her, not expose her as a Arian candidate. Geez. Uh, but still about Talia Cycore. And we got Lea, like, that's full Marks man,

Jeff: right?

Yeah. That's about as close as you can get when you're literally grabbing stuff out of the air

Brent: without actually watching the episode and cheating. That's, that's pretty close. Yeah, that's pretty close. So, uh, a high five, Jeff? Uh, let's wait.

Jeff: We

Brent: did right on that one. You know how Uber nerdish we are? I know it's folks, if you wanna, if you wanna know just how absolutely nerdy Jeff and I can be, particularly offline.

You should go to our YouTube page.

Jeff: This goes back ways, but this is, this is how I'm

Brent: No, no, but stuff I, Yeah, there's there's other stuff out there though, but there's, there's one that's way back there like, Was it like Halloween or something last year? Thanksgiving, I don't remember when, but uh uh, there's a community page on our YouTube page where stuff gets posted there and whoa, Jeff and I are

Jeff: big dorks.

Anyway, I think it's the first post we ever made there cuz like we were on the YouTube page, it's like, what is this? And we found out there's this whole thing on YouTube that we've had a lot of fun with since then. But I think the very first one I shared a high level nerd conversation we had like ,

Brent: you'll laugh at every book.

So anyway, go over to YouTube and check that out. And by the way, while you're there, like, and subscribe to YouTube and enjoy that because that's where you get all the behind the scenes stuff of what happens here with the making of Babylon five for the very first time. Plus some extra cool, super fun content that's going on out there as well.

Jeff: Can we talk for a second about super fun content? Cause we have some coming up here pretty. Do we? Well, we have some today right now for everyone watching and listening to Divided Loyalties. Oh yeah, that's right.

Brent: Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I forgot .

Jeff: We're like, well, like, we're like three. We count. We're a couple, three weeks away from the end of the second season, which puts us about a month away from our season two wrap up special episode.

Brent: That's crazy. Yeah. That's nuts.

Jeff: I still, we're already here. I still remember you and I, I think we were even talking on Twitter, we weren't even texting yet. And it's like, do you want to try this podcast? Like what do you think about this? And we're about to wrap the second season. We're

Brent: Jeff, that's gonna put us 40% of the way through the show.

Wow. Like, we're almost halfway through. That's pretty wild.

Jeff: Almost. Oh my gosh. So we're gonna celebrate, We had an incredible season one wrap up. That was a lot of fun. And we're gonna do the same thing for season two. Yeah. Including,

Brent: Jeff, I don't have another B five to give away. Wash sent me one and I'm keeping this one.

He sent me a second one because he's just an awesome dude, but I'm not giving this one away. .

Jeff: That's fair. That's fair. Trevor got the last one. Loved it. It's cool. You can have this one, I suppose. That's fine. But we do have something else we're gonna give away. Yeah, we do.

Brent: We do. And I have it right here. If you guys out there, speaking of YouTube, go to YouTube and you watch this, this little series we have out there called Brent Watches, which is literally me watching the episode for the very first time, having my reactions to it.

Super fun show that one's got like its whole deal. Like there's most of the people that watch that show turn over and watch this one, but there are a few people who are just that fans of that show. Anyway, I have a different camera angle for that particular episode and so that angle actually shows what's up here on my wall, and this is what we're giving away.

Let me reach over and pull it into the camera for those on YouTube watching. For those listening to the audio feed, we'll just have to describe it. But there is this, I present to you a Captain John Sheridan Babylon five action figure complete with teeny tiny Babylon five station that goes right next to it.

This is uh, printed from the 1997 uh, set. Oh, print from 97. Still inbox. Um, but I was able to pick up one of these and we're gonna give the guy away. It's a fun. This is fun.

Jeff: This is cool, man. That's super cool. That's so cool. I've got this hobby shop down the hill from me down in downtown. That's so cool.

They got the best stuff and I'm down there cause my daughter loves it. I'm down there probably three, four times a month just waiting for them to get some babble on five stuff in there. But my guess is there's none out there cuz you've been picking it all up. .

Brent: Yeah, a little bit. I've, I, I wanna fill up this wall with the very, like, I've, I now have a personal mission to collect this series of Babylon five inbox deals.

So, uh, anyway, Jeff, we're gonna be giving this away during our season two wrap up. How are we gonna give this away? Well, it worked

Jeff: out really well. For the first season, we're gonna do the same things we did last time. So go to Apple Podcast, go to, uh, good pods, go to, uh, Pod chaser, uh, Audible, wherever. Leave us a review.

Screenshot that review and send it to us. You can either send it to us on Twitter, Babylon first, or email it to us Babylon five to number five and the word, and you'll be entered in the giveaway. And. We had a lot of people who entered in the first season and who've been doing reviews, um, since that time as well.

We're gonna include all of those in the drawing. So basically everybody but Trevor. Yeah. He wouldn't that. Yeah. I think that's our little must can only win once. Mm-hmm. can only win, also cannot work for the podcast. Dang to win. Yeah. Tallen, was that their name? Yeah.

Brent: Also Br Tallen is an awesome, awesome person and we absolutely should have allowed that drawing to stand.

Jeff: Sure. Okay. Yeah, fine. Yeah. Check it out. Get ready for the wrap up. Get your reviews in as soon as you can at Babylon. First on Twitter, Babylon five first Looking forward to getting them and I'm excited to do the giveaway. That'll be cool. You know what

Brent: I'm excited to do, Jeff. What's. Get in to talk about this episode.

Let's do it. So for those out there who may not have seen this episode in a while, or maybe those who are just listening and haven't really watched the episode, or maybe you're watching us on YouTube and you haven't gone back and reviewed the episode that we're talking about today, divided loyalties, Jeff, remind everybody out there what happened in this week's episode.

Jeff: They say that in television, no one is ever truly dead or gone. Well, that seems to be especially true on Babylon five. See, a Blo up ship comes through the jump gate, and the only survivor on board is none other than Leeta. Alexander, who? Who's that? You ask? Oh, well, luckily Garabaldi is right there to remind us that she was the telepath on the station for the pilot episode.

The Gathering, He doesn't actually say that. He talks about it in context, but for us, I'll shorthand it and say The gathering. Yeah, it's that lead Alexander. Well, she is in a bad way, so Franklin is gonna have at her, and hopefully she doesn't have any cultural beliefs or anything that he can ignore that ends with her dying.

Speaking of dying, Talia and Ava have been dying to spend more time together. Conveniently, there's some work being done on Talia's Quarters and aana, and AANA offers for her to stay with her. They chat Talia showers at one point, and then she'd wake, Oh, I gotta do that whole thing over again. I'm gonna go way back.

It's for you. YouTube. Conveniently, there's some work being done on our quarters and Ava offers for Talia to stay with her. They chat Talia showers at one point. Talia wakes up and feels for Ava in the bed, but she's not there. Why would she be there? Unless, Oh, oh, oh, okay. Okay. I see. Didn't realize there was more to their story, but here we are.

Well, shockingly, Franklin doesn't kill Lida and she demands to meet with all of the command staff Together, she explains it. Cycore can plant a personality inside someone's brain that by sending a password telepathically can be activated, killing the person's normal personality and completely taking over.

That's pretty terrifying. Even more terrifying. Some mercenary rebel looking dudes on Mars slipped her a data crystal earlier in the episode that told her the password and that one of the earth force people on B five have been implanted with a sleeper person.

And the only way to find out who it is is to have Leah use her pain eyes to send the password and see who activates immediately. Ava is not cool with this. She's been anti Cyco since her first episode and is threatened to resign before letting anyone scan her, even if that's someone was Jeffrey Combs.

Sheridan pushes her though and she drops a bomb. Susan Ivanova is a latent telepath. Sheridan's cool about it though, says he is gonna authorize the brute force password hack on station personnel, but a hold off on getting it to her for as long as he can and he does. We get a parade of station personnel with Sheridan, either giving them some positive feedback or just, you know, kind of looking at him for a few seconds.

Awkward. Alita flashes her pain eyes. Garabaldi is the man though, and does not miss an opportunity to be hilarious. But after a long day, nobody's activating.

Looks like Li's gonna have to scan Ava just as she clears her. Talia walks in, gets the pain, eyes and screams. Father Go Sleeper has awakened it's Talia. Talia has the evil Cyco personality. Looks like though they're just gonna let her leave the station even though she like knows all kinds of stuff, like the Underground Railroad and who knows what else.

But luckily, they hadn't invited her into their fifth column little conspiracy group yet, though she says some super mean things to Ava before she leaves. But Ava, as she. Gets the last word and proves that she is awesome. But that's not the end for Lit Alexander. If you watch The Gathering and Are Still with us, you'll remember she scanned Kosh when he was unconscious.

She says that she has locked away that memory deep in her mind, but sometimes late at night, she opens the door to it so she can hear the song again. Then she asks Kosh if she can see him again without hesitation. He strips and she stares at him in awe, proving that once you go, Von, you'll never go Hume on.

Now. Brent, what was your reaction to divided loyalties? Once you

Brent: go, Von, you'll never go hum on.

Jeff: Uh huh. Does that count? That's a Jeff. If

Brent: that's, if that, No, you're getting, you're getting a free pass on that one because that's got to be our next t-shirt .

Jeff: Like,

Brent: once you go war lawn, you'll never go. Hum.


Jeff: my gosh. It took me an alarming amount of time to come up with that, just so you know.

Brent: did it really? No, that just didn't come to you. Oh my gosh. That's great. Uh uh, Jeff, I liked this episode. At first I didn't, but then I did, and let me explain. Yeah. Or a couple episodes ago, I, I, man, I, I've been going down about this, the redemption of lawn and they've gotta turn it, There's this sari war and there's all this stuff, and there's gotta be a point, the, the whole shadows, all that situation, like, we've gotta start moving that direction.

We've gotta get there. I know there's cy core, I know there's the earth thing going on. We've gotta get there. When we get these episodes that just seem like filler episodes, almost like episodes have nothing to do with that. They tend to kind of make me mad. This episode has nothing to do with that, but this was a really good episode.

Like I enjoyed this episode and this episode has a high rewatch value. I watch this episode three times once to do the, the watches video a second time to take my notes and, and, and re-up some stuff. But then I watched the third time just cause I wanted to. Oh wow. Yeah. Like, and, and I don't usually do that like, cuz we, we got stuff to do, frankly.

we gotta move on. Um, but I just, I really enjoy this, this had a, a lot of, uh, if you go back and watch it again, you see where the clues are dropped, you know, which is, that's the mark of good tv if you miss it the first time, but then, you know, and you go back and see it, then you know what it is. That's, it's, it's just so, it's so good.

It's, it's a great, almost like a who done it type of episode, or a who are you? Or a, a CSI or like, I don't, I don't know what kind of episode this really is, but it was just a lot of fun, you know? Um, it, it, it was, it was good TV man. Good tv. And, uh, we'll talk about all the wither two s and Y four s, but Jeff, overall, what did you

Jeff: think?

I really enjoyed this one too. I enjoyed it the first time around also. I thought it was really well done. Yeah. But I think kind of to your point, you know, people often, we've been pretty cruel. No, that's not fair. We've been very honest in this second season about the episodes that we've watched and people have taken great umbridge with a number of our.

Ratings on these things. But I think this episode in a Microsoft

Brent: also, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Jeff. If I could jump in. Yeah. Yes. Lots of people have taken Umbridge, but I've also been surprised at how many people like will watch this with us and kind of go, Oh yeah, this one really isn't that great either.

Like, Yeah, there's been, There's been that collective too. Absolutely.

Jeff: Cause we, it's, it's the, the, We have two, a bunch of lenses. We look at this through, one of, one of them is the lens of nostalgia. Right? Oh my gosh, I remember this so fondly. It's so great. But the other one that you and I can't have in any way is the lens of having seen the whole series.

This is amazing because of what it turns into. Yeah. But this episode, divided loyalties was like this microcosm of that, right. Where mm-hmm. , you watch it the first time and you're like, Oh, okay. You know, whatever. That's a thing. But then you watch it the second time and you say, Oh, they planted this seed.

They planted this seed. Oh, I should have known the whole time they were telling this story. It was really, this was a cool story. It was shocking. It was exciting, but I think more than that, I appreciated it just cuz this was so well constructed and it was so well acted. Especially Claudia Christian, Ava in this episode.

This is a high watermark for her. Yeah. So, so good. Yeah.

Brent: There's the, the way they were trying to point the finger at a vava so hardcore immediately lets, you know, it's not a vava. So you, you didn't know who it was. I didn't see it coming. I, and, and, and to get a reveal about a vava that explains why they keep pointing the finger out and she looks guilty.

And to have, have the fact that she's a latent telepath be the reveal. Like, I didn't see that coming at all. Like, I

Jeff: figure no. Gar Baldi, Sheridan Franklin, They'd be called the Telepath long before Bonneville. Like she's bottom of the list.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. But her mother was a telepath. She had the, like she's got the, the if, if it's genetically passed on, which we know that they do that.

Right. Because like they try to put a food together. So her mother's there. She absolutely refuses. She has a pure hatred over what they do. There's, there's a little bit of fear I think that goes into that. But that's also, I, you know, and this will recolor every episode having to do with Ava, particularly the ones where she's dealing with anything having to do with Cyco.

Jeff: I imagine her sitting at that table with Har and Gray in eyes mm-hmm. , Right. Especially where he's trying to connect with her that through this experience, that's an entirely different scene. Entirely

Brent: different. Yeah. And, and that reveal just works. It works with everything that came before. I don't know if this was something and somebody out there is gonna comment and let us know, and I'm okay with this one.

I think, I don't know if JMS had this particular character piece of Aon a planned, My guess is knowing how well thought out, he had the entire series, this, this is something he knew way early. And I don't know if he told Claudia Christiansen or if he just told her here, or like, I, like, I don't know at what point she knew this.

Um, like, you know, it it, it's like when they were filming the Harry Potter movies, like JK went and told Alan Rickman what the whole deal with Snape was, even though like only book four was out and she swm to secrecy and, and he held that secret all the way throughout. Mm-hmm. , you know, he was, he was the only one outside of her who knew what Snape deal was.

Until we, until we got the reveal of that much later in the series. Um, But I gotta, I, I have to compare it and I'm gonna burn my first Star Trek reference here, Jeff. This one tracks unlike an entire rec con of Dr. Bashir in Deep Space nine, where they just decide to like, Oh, look, he's genetically enhanced.

And then you go back and you watch everything else, and you're like, kind of see it. But really?

Jeff: Yeah. They're like, he was pretending to be a moron through here to hide. Okay. Okay.

Brent: Maybe, I mean, you go back and re-watch those early seasons and you're like, um, I, I know that I, I can see how you would, how you could maybe imply that that's what's going on, but Sure.

Whatever, and then we just move on with it. Right. And this one, you go back, it tracks every single bit of the way through. So I, I love that. Along with being absolutely surprised about Ava, I was absolutely shocked that it was Talia. Yeah. Did not see tall. I did not see it being tall. You walking through that door, getting the

Jeff: completely, that was, it was outta nowhere.

What I loved about it being outta nowhere is like, this is a, who done it, but even the one who done it didn't know they did it. Mm-hmm. , you know, and so that nobody knew the whole time and so you can't even piece together any of those things of like, well, this person was acting pretty weird or what. None of that's there.

Mm-hmm. , but I am so appreciative there. They, there were two really important flashbacks in this episode, and that's not a tool, it's not a tool that's been used in Babylon five. So, you know, this is like mm-hmm. beating us over the head. One was in regards to Ava, where we got the flashback to Sheridan's vision where she was black and white and had the Raven thing going and is like, Do you know who I am?

That's all that's a gonna be, I mean, big enough. Okay. Real

Brent: quick, real quick, just so that was, that flashback was Sheridan remembering that experience, not a new experience of that happening in that moment. That was

Jeff: from all alone in the night? Yes.

Brent: No, no, no. I, No, but I'm, I'm clarifying because when I first saw, I thought, Oh, Sheridan's having another one of these visions.

Cool. We haven't seen this in a while. And then he comes back to it and I'm like, Wait, was he, was that a new vision or was he just remembering it? I think he was just remembering it and they were

Jeff: telling us. Yeah. He even said, he was like, This is, this is from a dream I had a couple, couple of months ago, which tracks when that, when that came out.

But the other one was when, um, that the Vicar and Kosh set that deal up and then they sold, they sold the data Crystal. So I think KO has known this. Mm-hmm. like that was the thing. Right. What, what's in there? Horror, terrifying stuff for the future. Cuz he's got a data crystal with her little fake personality on it.

Brent: That's it. It's amazing to think that he even had that thought to check her out because he wouldn't have done that unless he knew that that's something that Cycorp was doing. Right. So, yeah, and it doesn't, it show a limit on koshas powers and abilities

Jeff: that he couldn't just pick that up.

Brent: He couldn't just know it, but he had to go get somebody who could so he could retrieve it and or maybe he did know and he just needed some way to record

Jeff: it or something.

I don't know. That's what I think. And I think maybe it's one of those things where he might know it, but you gotta confirm it. And to confirm it, you need someone to interrogate off of and then someone who can record it for him. But I think also maybe what it is, little theory, we've talked about a couple of times, we've asked if, um, Cycore.

Knows about the shadows. Yeah. Right. And if there's any collusion there, I think that they disabused us of our, our theory that the vlan and the shadows are one and the same, you know? Sure. Vlan our first one shadows are, are older. But what if Cycore reached out to the VLAN at, like, when they were trying to, I'm guessing it was Cycore that did the reach out, and maybe that's stupid of me, but what if they're just looking for more powerful races they can work with?

And they tried with the verlon and maybe so they have a, a hint, Oh, maybe they're trying this, uh, personality thing out. I don't know.

Did you catch what they called the personality? No. What control did they, And you remember control, right?

Brent: That was, Well, I, I mean, I said this in the, um, that's what they called. Because I said this in the, I said this in the Burnt Watches episode, but I missed that. Yeah. Cause I was like, cause I was like, I was trying to figure out like, what, and, and we can have this conversation, but what's gonna happen?

Where's tall you going? Because at the end of the episode, they didn't lock her up, they didn't put her in jail, they didn't put her on a transport ship. They didn't kill her. They just let her go back. You know, riding first class on the next transport outta here, like what's that all about? So what's going on with, with Talia next?

Um, and I was, I was trying to spin some things and I was like, maybe she's going back to San Diego and she's gonna work with that control and, and, and all that. But I didn't think that she would be control. So

Jeff: I, I, whatever that is a little bit of time. Cuz Lida said it was codename control, so I don't know if her personality is codename control or if the project was codename control because in the episode where the Mars first guy and we got introduced to Bureau 13.

They ordered him to kill her, like, go kill Talia. Right. If she was control control, I don't think she would order herself to kill herself. Right. So I think that control might be the name of the project and not necessarily her, um, her personality, but my guess is that you're right, she's gonna go back to San Diego and what we're gonna start seeing is,

Brent: is it, I'm sorry.

Is it, is it possible that of all the different people they put this personality in, it's the same personality across all of them and that personality is control? That


Jeff: make sense, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You have control. Control That's in San Diego, I'm guessing probably, you know, maybe up in La Jolla or somewhere.

Really nice if there's any, anywhere Nice. Left there. And uh, and then there's like little mini controls that are put out. You know, all around Is waiting is

Brent: tall. I'm sorry. Is tall you one of the 13 or 31 or whatever it is. Oh wow. Yeah. Maybe that

Jeff: was the reference. There's those different agents that are all part of

Brent: control.

Yeah. So here's the thing because what this immediately makes me go back to, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive real far down the deep Space. Nine rips off Babylon Five Five Conspiracy Train. Okay? And this isn't about Deep Space nine, so I don't get a buzz. Okay. But one, well actually yeah, I guess I do. Uh, one of the writers of Deep Space Nine was a guy named Ronald D.

Moore. Ronald D. Moore goes on to do the reboot of Battlestar Galactica in the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. The premise of the show is that you have these bad robots who now look exactly like you and me, and they're exactly basically what Talia was. Complete mentor candidate type deal. Don't even know who they are.

And there's like eight of 'em out there. Or like eight different models or something like that, Or I don't, I don't exactly remember how many. Maybe they're 13. Uh, but they look exactly like us, and it's only once they have like a trigger that awakens 'em, that they come to life and know who they are, which is what this is.

I mean, like I, I don't want, I, I, I'm not a big fan of going into the so and so rips off so and so like, I just didn't like going there. But I mean this, the, I mean, they're silos. That's what it looked like to me. I was like, these guys are silos.

Jeff: It's silos minus the, what do they call it? The rebirthing process or whatever they had where they would, because they were all, You had the number six line and the number eight line.

Yeah. This is just people out there. Yeah. It's almost

Brent: reprogrammed their brain. Yeah.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , and I don't think it counts as a reference. That was a Battlestar Galactica. , Thank you. Reference. So I'll take it that, which is a good one. But I think that that concept of putting pieces of yourself mm-hmm. in others to be activated at different times isn't unique even to Battlestar Galactica or this, it, there's chunks of that in Doune that that, that they touch.

Especially unlocking old ancestral memories or even like having you out in, you know, billions of sand worms that are out there. So it's not a new concept to sci-fi. They've all had a little bit of a different take on it. This is the first time I think, though, I've seen it done as like, you're a sleeper agent, as a person and you don't even know.


Brent: Don't even know. And like, what I found really interesting was they said, there's the person and their personality, there's this other personality that they wrote in, and it destroys the real personality. And this fake personality takes over. Here's my question. Does anything of the original personality survive?

Because Ava comes in at the end, she's trying to talk to her. Like, if there's any part of you, like, does all right folks out there, people that get this reference, Jeff won't. Does anything of the host survive?

Even, Even though they're like, No, she's completely gone. She's out here. Is there, are we gonna get Talia coming back saying, uh, you know, fighting for control of her body. Have you, these

Jeff: two personalities, have you ever gone on a long road trip with somebody before? A few times, yeah. A long road trip with somebody that doesn't listen to the same kind of music that you do.

Yes. And then after that road trip, you might find yourself listening to a little bit of that music. Yes. Afterwards, Yeah. That's how I look at this personality. Like it's sitting in that person's brain, going along for the ride, experiencing all the things that person experiences, listening to stuff and participating in it.

There's a little bit of that that's gonna hold on and stick even with the new personality. Oh yeah.

Brent: Yeah. There's, and I mean, and that's, and that's, uh, that's a, Okay, so we'll pivot to this. Apparently there's a relationship, like a romantic relationship between Ava and Talia. What, Okay. Does that track through all the other episodes that we've seen?


Jeff: tracks. So here's the thing, it tracks beat for beat perfectly in this episode. Yes. But I don't even way back, I think one of the last times we saw them together was. Talia went to confide in, Ava, took her badge off. Right. That, that's part of what prompted me to guessing what this episode was gonna Yeah.

Brent: Be a p They they, they got drunk together and talked, had a girl talk like Yeah, that's what it seemed like

Jeff: to me, which just normal stuff. So funny thing, the second time I watched this episode, I watched it with my wife and she has watched maybe a grand total of six minutes of Babylon five since we've started this podcast.

It just mm-hmm. hasn't resonated for her. And so she was in and out coming back and forth and I paused it for some reason at some point, and I told her how brilliant the scene was between Ava and Talia. It was the one where Talia had just gotten outta the shower. Ivanovo was wearing her Silk 90 and they were kind of talking the scene where like they kinda leaned in and I was a hundred percent sure they were gonna kiss.

Yeah. I like they, they're gonna kiss. And so I said, This is brilliant. The way they put this together, they,

Brent: I'm sorry. And it was, but the way they're, This wasn't a first kiss. No. This was like a, Hey, we're starting this. Like this was something they'd been doing because I, I know for me personally, like I, I, first I see, I see Avan and like her little silky nightgown and, and I didn't think too much about it.

Then it flashed over to Talia and she comes out, she's got the wet hair and she's, she's doing the thing where she's drying it off a little bit off to the side with the little head cocked over and she's a little smile, and she's also in these silk night pajamas. Now, I've, I've never been to a girl's sleepover.

I don know what my wife wears to bed and there's other, Listen, everybody out there is different. Wear whatever you want to bed or wear, whatever you don't want to bed. I, whatever, different people, different strokes for different folks. The only time that I've seen silky pajamas like that, Is when stuff's about to happen

Jeff: and there's a mission, stuff has happened.

Right? Yeah.

Brent: Right. And she's, I mean, but she's got, she's just got that look on her face and like, I saw it, I was like, Wow, this is really weird. It looks like they're kind of like, whatever. And then they just go to talk. I didn't think anything about it. But then she's like, Was this the part where she's like, You're the only one I trust, and they go to lean in.

Mm-hmm. . And I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, are they going there with this? And, and I wanna be clear about my, like my, my, uh, surprise. I didn't see this. Like, this was not something that seemed seated to me at all. They did this in 1995. Yeah. Like, wow. You know?

Jeff: Yeah. It was, it's, And that's why I was saying this is so brilliant because in 19, 19 95, you could not show.

Same sex, but relationships or attractions. And if you did, it had to be very clearly two very flamboyant men. Like it had to be, you know, check all the boxes of a

Brent: stereotype. Well, you, you could, you could also hide it in the other person is androgynous in choosing to go one way or the other. There was the episode of, of Next Generation, which we look at through today's eyes.

And you think that person's trans in those eyes, that person this really was a, a, uh, uh, uh, male female homosexual choosing, choosing your love conversations, what that was, or, or you look at the one where he actually had, and I think Deep Space Nine is credited with the first female female kiss. I could be wrong.

It is. Um, but even in that situation, and I've always felt like that cheat, that that particular scene, uh, uh, shortchanged the impact of a lesbian kiss. On TV for the first time because the personalities that were in love were in a male female relationship from a previous life. And that's what was reflecting.

So it wasn't necessarily these two people specifically as much as the old people that was in a heterosexual relationship. Like that's the only way that they got away with that back in the nineties, you know, today, just like, Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Today we'd be like, Hey, awesome. No problem. Um, well

Jeff: I think that's the thing with Star Trek.

Like, I wanna, I wanna, I want credit and discredit Star Trek at the same time, right? So they had the first female, female, you know, gay kiss, the 2, 2, 2 women kissing. They also had the very first interracial kiss. Mm-hmm. . Amazing. Great. Both of those things were groundbreaking for television. Yes. But they were both done like you.

Based on a male female relationship prior from Duke Space Nine. And in the original series, it was under the duress of like alien pressure, making them do the thing. And literally it only happened because William Shatner purposely blew every take along the way, so they had to use the one where they awkwardly kissed each other.

Brent: The story of that is hilarious, by the way. Mm-hmm. . It is, you know, because that's, it's, it's literally the Star Trek, Star Trek folks going, This is ridiculous. We should just be able to do this. And the, the network people standing there like, No, no, no. ,

Jeff: you know, and Chatter being like, Okay, fine. Yeah, we'll, we'll do it again.

Oops. Uh, oops. Did this. Wow. This is the only good take you've got. Yeah. Oh. But I think in this case, like, we watched this, I mean, so it was in a time when you couldn't show these things, but he did and he did it in such a brilliant, brilliant way. Yeah. That tracked, but. My point I was making with my wife watching this was to me, because we know Talia, because we know Aon and we know the world, you know, we know the scarcity economy that they're living in.

So you don't just wear a Silk 90 all the time, that's a special occasion thing cuz it's gonna wear out and there might not be another one in your future. So I explained this to my wife and she's like, Yeah, it's just two girls hanging out. Like it's just girl talk. And I was just like, to me it showed the kind of the subtle like espionage way that he snuck this little relation.

JMS stuck, snuck this up, this relationship in, which was great, but it also showed me how powerful the character development and world building has been that for you. For me, having watched this now for what are we, at almost 40 episodes of this, where like I know these people and these behaviors that are happening.

This math only comes up with one, one solution the way I, I do the equation. ,

Brent: Uh, you know, the part where it sealed it for me, because frankly, like, I mean my brain was just going like, this isn't a relationship. They're not in a relationship. They're, they're just cuz it, I do not believe that this has been set up since the beginning.

Like, they had drinks one time and got drunk and now they're trying to just be friends. You know, like, like they, they've got some camaraderie. I never saw this going. Anything further than that. Where it sealed it for me was that scene where Talia rolls over and she reaches out in bed for Ava. And you and I were texting a little bit and, and you had reminded me, you're like, Yeah, Ava doesn't have an extra bed.

They had to be sleeping in the same bed. Because I was like, was she sleep? Was she reaching out for a vva or was it just, it was an empty, she was in the guest room. You know, it was, well, whatever. And like, no, no, no, they're sleeping together. Now let's be, That does not mean that two people of the same sex cannot sleep in the same bed and have it not be romantic.

A hundred percent can do that. But putting all the pieces together, here's the, here's like, I'm flabbergasted by

Jeff: it. You and I, you and I, Brent, we lay, we go on a road trip and we lay in a, in a hotel bed together, and I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like, It doesn't feel like Brent's in here with me.

I don't roll over to touch you. I reach over and grab my iPhone and I flash the flashlight and I go, Yeah, he's not here. . Yeah, that's platonic sleeping in bed together. Me right as a telepath with no gloves on. Reaches over. That was the other thing. Yeah, I had that thought too. Yeah. Yeah. Reaching over to be like, where that, that, that was where I saw it in the first one, but on the second view, all the way from them having lunch, everything built to them clearly having a relationship.

Brent: Absolutely. It did. Absolutely. So I just, you know, when things come outta left field like this, and I, I mean, if this was going to be something that they had going forward, I think I'd be a little less surprised. I mean, this feels almost a little bit like, Oh God, I'm gonna use it again. This feels a bit like a Warf Indiana thing, or like a chite seven of nine thing.

Like, I'm gonna shove this in because tall is clearly off the station now, unless she's gonna be a, a, a regular cast member as a bad guy, which I don't know that that's gonna be the case, or you know, is this setting. Ava going after Talia. And, and that's a part of the storyline going forward. Now are we gonna even see Talia again?

Like what, what's going on with Talia? Where's she going?

Jeff: I think at most she'll be back as a villain. And I don't think Ava's gonna chase after Ava shut her down at the end of this episode. Yeah. Like I feel like the relationship was put in there to build to the end. Like they never went there with Garabaldi Antalia.

They never went there. Yeah. Yeah. And to go there with the stuff he's dealing with would've been two a lot. It would've been a whole lot. So to go there with Ava was more casual and whatever. And it set up that last scene where evil Talia could come and just, I mean, I'm just gonna say just be a huge bitch to, I mean, she was so

Brent: mean.

Oh my God.

Jeff: And cool. And that had to like be the exclamation point on like, Talia is dead long lived. Talia

Brent: again, what did they do with, I mean, They didn't kill her. They didn't, They, she's not long lived. Like she's still alive out there somewhere. Um, but here's the thing, and and I really, please don't answer this, don't spoil it.

Let the mystery be there. Did what's Andrea Thompson, right? That's her name? Yes. Is she off the show? Like is this her leaving the show? You know, because, you know, she's not in every episode. She's only in like, what, 10 episodes a season? Something like that. Really so far. Um, but here's the things, what, what you were just saying there, talking about evil, evil, Talia, I have never really liked Andrea Thompson playing Talia.

Okay. Talia has never grown on me. I've never liked her. Like she's been fine. I've not disliked her, but I've never liked her. You know, Um, she kind of has felt like that over actor, like whatever they're, they're given to Portray. And I honestly thought it was just cause Andrea Thompson wasn't a great actress.

Jeff: They're like, be done

Brent: until she goes evil. And I'm like, Oh my, I want this Talia. Yeah, I want this one. I want this one in the show. Cause she's so good at it. Like so good. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't know how do, how she would figure she was evil and she was conniving and she was cold. Yeah. And it came across and all of a sudden her hair's down and Oh my gosh.

I was like, that's what that character needs to be.

I have a question. Okay. There could be other sleeper agents on baby one. Five. A hundred percent. Grab your corkboard. I wonder if you

Jeff: grab, grab, Put the I I have yarn for this corkboard. I'm curious if we got the same one. Yeah. R do you You go,

Brent: Is lawn also a sleeper

Jeff: agent? I don't think so.

Brent: Oh. Uh, listen, what did Talia say to Ivon there at the end?

My good and dear friend Ivon. Huh? What does Lando say all the time? Right, My good and dear friend, Garrett Baldy, my good and dear friend Sinclair, she, I mean, she said it exactly the way that Peter Duick says it only without the accent to it. My good and dear friend at

Jeff: Fava, I did not pick up

Brent: on that. Ah, now I'm just saying could put, put the red string here and then run it over here.

And you gotta ask yourself, is Lando a sleeper

Jeff: agent? I don't think, cuz Cyco had to have had them for a period of time to do their stuff. When would, when? Well, I don't know. Lando did a lot of stuff. Maybe we've

Brent: known the Sattari for a while at this point.

Jeff: It's possible. Here's my, here's my red string on that one.

Okay, got it. Okay. So they say that this personality, even before it became active, would do anything to protect itself. And that was a lot of what they leveled at Ava. Right, Right, right. Well, it's just, you know, of course you're, you're, you're poo-pooing this stuff. Why wouldn't it also activate to protect itself once it's activated?

So Gar Baldi Garabaldi plays his little trick, which was brilliant, right? When she gives him the pain eyes and then he is like, Oh,

Brent: I didn't buy it. I didn't buy it. Just kidding. Not for a second. I didn't buy it cuz it was Gar Baldi. Cause it was Gar Baldi. I didn't

Jeff: buy it for a second. So, here, But here's my thing and, and again, I don't, I don't buy it at all either, but I've just gotta put the yarn up there because it tracks.

Why wouldn't the personality protect itself with comedy? Oh no, I was just kidding. I'm still totally hidden. Still

Brent: here. You know what move I absolutely loved in that scene though. Was when he handed his PPG to Sheridan right before it happened. Yeah. . I was like, that's probably a good move

Jeff: right there.

Yeah. That's smart. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Brent: Um, can we talk about a few side things for a moment? Totally. Um, okay. Can I get, can I give a harsh criticism of the episode? Yeah. On a production level, the sound mixing in this episode is God awful. Yeah. Like there are places where the audio is right here and then all of a sudden it goes down to here and it's within the same scene.

And there are, there are places where like you can tell there are cutting between takes and the audio levels are just all over the place. There are times when you just, you can't hear aana at all. And then she sounds really super crystal clear, like, I'm a sound guy by training, uh, trade, not training by trade.

I'm a sound guy. I, I've done a lot of different stuff, but it just stood out to me like, and because I was watching this episode first through headphones. Okay. So it was really like, I was right here and could hear when all those changes took place and, ugh. Anyway, um, Dilin and Sheridan. Can we just say that they're so cute at this point.


Jeff: I, They're just cute. Can I read you my note on them? Yes, please, Please do. Dilin and Sheridan sitting in a tree. K i s s i n g. Totally. They're just like these little, like preteen, little flutter and love. Mm-hmm. the little but versus butt conversation. That was

Brent: so good. Yeah, it was so funny. Gee, He said, I'm, this needs to be, I don't know if this is a t-shirt, maybe this is a, a bumper sticker.

He says, You have the damnedest gaps in your vocabulary. I'm gonna start using this with my kids. , you have the damnest gaps in your vocabulary. She doesn't know what a

Jeff: but is. You know what's huge to me though, in that phrase alone? Yeah. We're, we're, Let me say that again so I don't have me taping myself.

We're Star Trek guys, right? Yeah. So everything for us is through a translator and everyone's speaking whatever language they want. Yeah. And, and they're hearing whatever. Here, I'll hit it. There's no translators in Babylon five, which means Jaar Londo, the Marab guy. They, they learned English or whatever

Brent: speaking the common tongue or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff: And that to me adds a layer to the complexities of like the diplomacy stuff going on. Yeah. But it was a cute scene. It was, I'm I, I've said it before. I, I haven't been for very much Tolen and Sheridan, but I'm, I'm really starting to warm up to it.

Brent: See, And that's what I'm, They're slow rolling this one.

Like, there's no way when, whenever they inevitably get together. Cause I think they're, they're gonna have to, we're not gonna be able to and say, Where did this come from? Like, they're, they're seeding it in various places. We've seen it. We saw it in the last episode. Where, uh, she called him John for the first time.

Mm-hmm. , like they're, they're taking, they're taking those steps. Um, Okay. Another scene when Sheridan and Gar Baldi are in the men's room and he's sweeping for bugs while they're talking about trees and more trees and just talking about trees and trees and trees and trees, but he is sweeping for bugs.

That was, that was great. I, I ly right about the time I was like, Oh, he's really talking about trees a lot. And then I

Jeff: understood what was going on. Yeah. I think my favorite part of that scene though, was the Pac Mira who walks out of the stall just like, All right, now I'm feeling good. Let's go do this.

Brent: Did you see him give like a little shiver as he walked by?

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Causes like, Right. That's good.

Brent: Was he shaking? Is that

Jeff: getting it off? We've all had that, you know, that walking out of the stall and being like, Right. That's good. I, I spring in my step now. It quite neat. Back tolen, just super quick. Oh yeah, there was that scene where they're recycling the universe today.

Oh yeah, the newspaper. I thought it's kind cool. You wrote cycle one to get one. Yeah. It's kinda neat. But, And they charge you

Brent: a credit uhhuh. It's, there's a phase scan. It's like, Hey, we got your credit. Well, what would you like today? What do you want your news?

Jeff: I thought that was cool. It was like, it was like a neat little like personalized news page, but on paper, cuz that's what we had back in 95.


Brent: But, and the, the recycle flap Yeah. Was just a silly little piece of plastic. Like nothing awesome. , like,

Jeff: they just slapped a sticker on it.

Brent: So, So here's a question. Okay. We, we've discussed how, and we've learned the Babylon five seasons occur each over the course of a year, which means like, like in last season finale, it was New Year's Eve and mm-hmm.

you know, then we started at the beginning of the year and so now we're talking and we're towards the end of the season. They're talking world series. So in the future, baseball is still being played and the World Series is still in October, November. October. Yeah. That's what it looks like. And that's, so that's where we are in the year right now, is, you know, right around Halloween, Thanksgiving.

Jeff: Well we know, we know that baseball's still a thing cuz dude, back in the other episode was talking about the Dodgers and how when they play on Mars, it's not fair cuz the, the gravity's all different.

Brent: So, but Right. And we saw Sheridan taking batting practice mm-hmm. , you know, the other day. So Totally

Jeff: think, Did you notice, So a couple things with the end though that stood out to me.

One. Yep. Um, she acknowledged that really horrible interview that she had and, and now for a word, She said, Hey, you know, this press that you have, it's both confusing and troubling , right? Cause on Minbar we are only told, we are required to know and nothing more. So the whole concept of having a reporter was totally foreign to her.

And I remember when we recorded our discussion on that one, I even said, I'm like, God, I hope they come back to this. Cause it was, She was totally ambushed and it was absolutely,

Brent: I'm glad you said that because I didn't remember that interview until you brought it up. Cuz I was, I was thinking maybe there was just something from the gathering or something like way long time ago that I just didn't remember.

But yeah, no, it turns out it was just a couple episodes ago.

Jeff: Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it was very, it was very recently . Yes. But also that she talked about, she's getting that, uh, eye on Minbar column in there. I think she gets that cuz she's not getting the newsfeed from Great, the Gray Council. Yeah. Only told what you're required to know and nothing else.

And now that you're not sati you don't need to know a whole bunch of stuff. So she's gotta read the Earth newspaper, essentially. Mm-hmm. to know what's going on on

Brent: Minbar.

Okay. I guess I, I, I only have one reference left, right? No,

Jeff: you have none. And I have none. I have two left. No, I have one left. You have one left? You have one left between

Brent: us. You can, I, can I use yours? You may have it. Can I use yours? Okay. Uh, hey Jeff. Hey Brent. How long does an elevator ride on Babylon?

Five Last.

Jeff: How long?

Brent: Just like in Star Trek. As long as the conversation needs

Jeff: Right.

Brent: Turbo. Turbo lift rides only last as long as the conversation has requires it to, Right. There's no awkward before. That's exactly what happened in this

Jeff: one. Uhhuh. There's no like, Oh, how do I end this thing? It's like, Oh, it ends cuz the door just opened. Right? And

Brent: now I get to walk away.

Jeff: Um, um, I think this is my last one on Dalen was, uh, when Lead Alexander reached out to her, she was recording like her ambassador's log and she was talking about opening trade negotiations with the Luma, but she wanted to pause for a second, but, Oh, Lee's calling.

I wanted, I bet they were ready to seal the deal and she wasn't Okay with sealing the deal with the Luma.

Brent: Oh, that's what the Luma was. Who was that dude? Yeah. Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. Interesting, interesting. Um, now you're gonna have, I'm gonna have to think about that now.

Jeff: Oh yeah. Uhhuh. Oh. Oh,

Brent: okay. Uh, hey Lea, does she look younger to you than she did last time?

Cause like in this episode, she looked like she was about 20 something years old. I, I remember her being like 40 something from the gathering. Like

Jeff: it's pretty incredible what a hairstyle can do. She had that in the gathering. She had like that harsh, short kind of red hair thing going a little bit.

Mm-hmm. . And then it was a darker, there was still redish and you know, to it, but it's more of a bob. Yeah, it was, it was healthy and well conditioned hair. Like she was cute. Like yeah, she looked healthier. I mean, despite being on the run and whatever. Like she just looked

Brent: having blood coming out of her nose at some point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, alright. Last question that you'll get from me. Oh, no, no. Actually have to, I'm sorry. But here's, here's one. Uh, Li goes to do the thing on Ava. She goes, She's blocking me. Can non Telepaths block a telepath? And I mean, Because wouldn't Talia now know that, uh, Ava is a, is a latent telepath and shouldn't lead also know that Ava is a latent telepath because of that stuff?

Jeff: Like I'm pretty sure that yes, you and I and Ava and she and with some mental discipline could block a certain level of scan. Okay. I think. Right. You know, I think just about what humans are capable of even now, you know, and, and this time not to mention, you know, way up in the 23rd century. I think you could have the mental discipline if you wanted to, and it would check out for Avan of, she would go through whatever meditation things she'd need to, to be able to block a telepath.

Mm. I think it checks out.

Brent: Okay. The next thing I want to, I wanna ask you about the, this is, this is gonna go back to your leadership stuff, Jeff. Okay. Let's talk Sheridan leadership. He's talking with Garabaldi and Ava and he says we cannot be a team with this hanging over our heads. Aon is clearly pushing back.

Aon clearly doesn't want do this, but he's like, He's right. We can't be a team if this is hanging over our heads. He comes to a solution and then later on he's protecting Aon from this whole thing. He's like, No, we're gonna make her the last one. Like, he gets it. He understands it. Um, I think there's a message here that might dip a little bit more into the, the messages later, but I wanted your take specifically on this move by Sheridan and how he's dealing with Ava, but also Garabaldi and

Jeff: his team.

So those literally are my closing thoughts. Okay. So I'll cover it there.

Brent: Okay, great. Uh, the door, Oh, the other thing I had was the doors. Have you ever noticed how the doors open and shut on Babylon? Five?

Jeff: Yeah. The weird hinged, sideways thing.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah, they go outside like they're a Lamborghini door or something.

Jeff: Yeah. Caught in the wall. I caught that the first time. Um, ah, I forget it. But where Garal, he was making some joke about how great he was with computers and then he wasn't so great with it when they were gonna set up some, you know, some scan thing for somebody. Yeah. Back a while ago. I noticed that first time.

All right, so my, my last question for you. Yeah. What do you think Lida saw when she saw Kosh?

Is it a drug?

Brent: Is there some sort of, uh, does this, the hippocampus of the brain? Because what she says is she goes into this thing and she hears the music. Now remember when Sheridan went into the hot box and he got all the music? He's like, Wow, the Gregorian chant, which is awesome, like,

And she, she, she's like, she's like, Hey, can I, can, can I see some more of that? Can I, before I leave, like, can I, can, can I kosh? Like it's whatever it is, it's addictive. But remember what Ksh said, like the reason he has to wear the encounter suit is because if anybody saw him, they would recognize him. Who, Everyone I, I'm trying to connect that line with this apparently addictive thing that Lea keeps talking about and why is it that Delin see it and be cool with it?

I don't know.

Jeff: It was that they, they spent a good chunk of time zooming in on her eyeball. Showing his reflection and it was just a halo, right? She was, she was literally staring into my ring light that I have up here. . I had that same thought. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she's on a Zoom call. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense.

Brent: Get real close on the, on the,

Jeff: for the YouTube folks.

Yeah. That's, gosh, in your eyeball, I could see it, but I think I, I think what it almost is, is

whatever you see is what you would think you would want to see. Like whatever, whatever your version of God is, right? An a halo, like she kind of sees a halo. You see that like whatever's most meaningful to you. If you ever saw an angel, wouldn't you want to see that again? And wouldn't you do what you needed to do to see that again, if you gazed into the eyes of the bud?

Would you? I mean, I don't know. That's kinda my fault. You say

Brent: an angel? I've kind of, Every time, uh, every time anybody ever sees an angel, they're always freaked out. So I don't know that I really wanna see an angel . Like

Jeff: really good point now is that do not be afraid. Do not right. Don't be cool. I'm good.


Brent: okay. I'm not gonna kill you. I'm not gonna eat you. So, um, yeah, I don't, I mean,

the way you describe it to me, honestly, I'll reference my other fandom now. It's like Babylon five's version of the Mirror of Era. Said like, do you know what that is? Do you know that reference? Mm-hmm. So, and Harry Potter. It's a mirror that shows you only what your innermost desire is. That's

Jeff: where Harry's hanging out with his parents.

Yeah, yeah,

Brent: yeah, yeah, yeah. The Mirror River set, which is if you spell desire backwards, it's Euro set. Oh yeah. Get it, get it. Um, but uh, yeah, that was, it's something. It's definitely something, and again, I, I'm trying to connect these threads. Cause like here, I'm like, what is this? What are we seeing here? Uh, I can't wait to find out.

I've heard comments that we will before the end of the show is done. Mm-hmm. . And that's about as spoiler as I, just to tell me your questions will be answered. Is as far spoiler as I needed to be. I

Jeff: think we're closer. So end of season one. We got a hint that he could be seen here. We're at the end of season two.

He got to be seen, You know what I mean? I feel like, I feel like the Meno is speeding up and pretty soon we're gonna, we are gonna get to see him also.

Brent: All right, Jeff, well let's get there. Let's hit that part of the show where some, to boil it down and see if the show has any of that Star Trek equality to it. Is there a deep moral message? Is it holding up a mirror to society? Are we gonna be better in the future? Jeff, you're gonna rate this episode on a scale of zero to five Deltas as far as that.

I'm gonna take star theories as far as just how much we like the episode. How Babylon five was it? Jeff, what you got for us?

Jeff: This episode was a lot of plot, right? A lot of story going on, and there wasn't a lot of opportunity for a message or a lesson in it, but it really came down like the big meat in this one Uhhuh was what we talked about a little earlier.

Sheridan trusting Ava and, and bringing his team together in the face of

unbelievable, you know, I mean, literally the worst, the worst thing, you know, betrayal from from within. The, What it has to do to me is that magic that happens when you build a relationship where you communicate all the time and you do so in a way built on respect on. Where you actually have those really difficult conversations.

I think that's one of the biggest roles that a leader plays when you're leading a team, is acknowledging the elephant in the room and making it okay for people to talk about that. Elephant and Sheridan does that. He brings Ivanova and Garabaldi together. He manages garabaldi, understandable, freak out about things.

But the real thing here is the fact that he Sheridan Yvanova's boss, essentially. Mm-hmm. . Trust her. Trust her as a person. Trust her as a pro, as a professional. He doesn't second guess her. When I feel like he would have supported her, even if she hadn't shared that she was a latent telepath, I have every reason to believe he still would've done everything he could to protect her.

Her sharing that with him though is the reciprocation of that because they communicate, because they trust, because there's, even though there is a hierarchy, It is at work here. They're still working together as a team and as equals, and that's what Star Trek is about. You know, Star Trek is about people coming together to support each other, to make each other feel safe and better so they can improve and make things better for other people.

I mean, who wouldn't want relationship like the kinds that Sheridan and Ivanova and Garabaldi have? It's not, It's not what they had with Sinclair. That was friendship that they had. That was a really cool friendship. This is a level of professionalism between all three of them that I think only exists because it's Sheridan.

What's hard to me though, is like, that was like six minutes of the episode at most , but I still think it was super powerful and I think it's really important. I'm gonna give this one to Deltas based on that message alone.

Brent: Yeah, I, The note that I had here was Star Trek message possibility. Now, let's see if they walk through the door.

Mm-hmm. , because I think we see that a lot in Babylon. Five of like, Oh, here is a place where they have an opening to actually make a comment on something. Let's see if they go there. Right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and this episode had two of them to meet. One of 'em was what you just went through. The other one was earlier where, um, we're talking about Aana not wanting to be scanned and you have this whole thing about, uh, invasion of privacy and should you do something to somebody, even if they don't wanna do it, even if it's not, even if they don't know.

Cuz like Liz felt like very Star Trek, like lead didn't actually need permission to do anything. She could have just walked around the station all day long and just gone and, and nobody would've even known, you know? Yeah. And Lena's not even cyco anymore. Like she ran away from Sycor. Right. So why is she obeying the rules?

I don't know. Um, But this could have gone down that me, that path of not violating somebody. Hmm. You know what I mean? Not at all where this episode went, but the door was there, but then you had this one of, um, Oh, oh, well then there was the other one of how do you tell people the truth you've been lying to for years of all of us struggling with that.

Right. Uh, people that really care about you won't turn you away again. You can pull that out. Is that what the episode was trying to say? No, You know, I, I think your rating of two deltas, like, I wanna say it's low, but I don't think you're wrong because this episode wasn't trying to tell those. Like, you just sort of have to pull.

You can, Yeah, you can, you can pull that out. But it's definitely not what the writer was going for in this particular episode. And that's okay. Uh, Sometimes TV can just be good tv.

Jeff: Yeah. And frankly, I think if someone didn't, I mean, frankly, I think it was my and yours, I mean, you have experience in management and leadership as well.

And I think it was that lens that kind of brought that lesson out. If you were just person watching this show, I don't think a lot of that would've, would've even registered. And that's where, Sure, I wanted to go higher than two, but I, I, I just, I, I can't, I had to work pretty hard to get that reference put together.

Brent: Understood. Understood. Uh, the other one that, that I kind of got, and this is a Disney reference for me. I don't know how often I make, I need to make more Disney references, although we do have the awesome mala one. Um, I loved how Sheridan protected a AVA in this episode, and I think that there is a message in here about, depending on other people, rather than hiding from them.

And this kind of dovetails into the how do you tell somebody the truth that you've been lying to for years? I'm gonna turn to Elsa. In the movie Frozen. I have said this before. I will say it again. Um, I think that Elsa's father is the worst Disney father ever. Wow. Now somebody, others will be like, Oh yeah, what about this one guy?

Nope. I think it's Elsa's dad. Because what Elsa's dad wound up doing was he instilled fear and intimidation into his daughter when what she needed was she needed community and she needed love. And that's the whole message of frozen. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, when she's going, let it go, let it go, let it go. Like that whole piece is, uh, I, I can't hide this anymore.

I can't be on my own. Right. The destruction that happens from isolation is, is magnificent. And I don't mean that in a good way. Like, I mean, it's, it's just huge. When Aana finally decided to trust Sharid, That's when she could be protected. That's when she could have her needs met cuz she couldn't do it on her own.

Like she had to do this from a community aspect. Sheridan's looking at it from a team working aspect, but Avan like she, she had to, she had to get there. That being said, I'm gonna give this one a four star fury rating because this was, it did this thing in a Babylon five way and it was just good tv. You know, this wasn't coming in, boning you over the head with some big moral message.

That's not at all what this episode was. This episode I think is a, like this episode's about one of two things. Either one, they're furthering a plot about what's happening here with Sycor, and I really hope that's what it is. It also could just be Andrea Thompson's leaving the show and this is how they're writing her off.

We're gonna devote a whole episode to just, how do we get her off the station? Like, you know, I don't actually, And maybe it's both. Maybe it's both. I don't know. But yeah, I'm gonna go for star figures cause it was good. It was just a good episode. And in a season that has been full of a lot of episodes, Jeff, we've been pretty harsh on the season.

Mm-hmm. , we might have been more harsh than we really needed to be. I would say this season has had more meth than it has black. There's been certainly been some luck, but it's had more meth. And this one was a,

Jeff: Hey, I think also this one was so just well put together. Like this is a, it's, it's artful. Artful television, I mean the sound engineering piece aside, but just the,

Brent: that's, that's production, that's technical.

That's, that's not art. That's just technical .

Jeff: Yeah. That's fair. But I just, the, the storytelling, the acting, I mean, oh my gosh, what a high point of act for everybody through this whole thing. This was, I really enjoyed this episode. Yeah. But Brent, now season two, this is where, this is where you gotta make the tough decision because we are generating episode by episode the definitive, accurate, objectively correct ranking of all the episodes in this, the second season of Babylon five, our top five currently, and number one, the coming of shadows.

Number two, erase through dark places. Number three in the shadow of Zaha Doom. Number four, all alone in the night. And number five, confessions and lamentations. Brent, where do you put divided loyalties?

Brent: As this, at this current spot feels like a very, I don't wanna say one off episode, but it feels outside of the, the overall story that they're trying to tell. Maybe it's inside because it's furthering something else. This season is supposed to be about the coming of shadows, not the sneaky handedness of Cyco.

Okay, . So these episodes that deal with the big hit pieces of what's going on with the shadows, um, these, these big marquee pillar episodes I think are naturally gonna stand out Coming of shadows, race through dark places, Zaha Doom all alone in the night. And then we have episodes like Confession and Lamentations and Hunter Prey, which specifically confessions and Lamentations last week we just talked about.

It's an important episode. Yeah. It's not necessarily an episode I ever really wanna watch again. That said, this episode becomes my new number five. Wow. Okay. It, it, I really, really enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed it more than Hunter Prey. I definitely enjoyed it more than knives and soulmates. Soulmates was fun.

It was goofy. This one was good tv. I don't know that it cracks that top four conglomerate of what the season is supposed to be about and where we go. But yeah. I'm gonna place this in at number five.

Jeff: Well, just for, uh, little note soulmates that spend a lot of time in the top five for us is now barely in the top 10.

Brent: Oh, it's, it's sounded like eight or something now. So number nine, now. Nine. Oh man, I just showed don't let it, don't let it fall outta the top. I like that episode.

Jeff: Well, Brent, that's it. Four divided loyalties. And let's, uh, let's kind of see where we think things are gonna land for soulmates, because next week we're watching the long Twilight struggle for the first time.

We've never seen these episodes before. We're not watching ahead, We're not reading ahead, we're not looking ahead. We're just looking at the titles. Brent, based on the title alone, what do you think the long twilight Struggle is going to be about?

Brent: I've been saying for a while now that this, that we've gotta get back to the NA's entire war.

That we've gotta have the redemption of lawn Mallari, that we've gotta have all of this sort of stuff. I don't think we're going there this week, but what, what's this called? The Long something Twilight.

Jeff: The Long Twilight Struggle.

Brent: Sparkly vampires. This one is about sparkly vampires.

Jeff: So this one ruins an entire mythology, is what you're

Brent: saying? Yes. Yes. Pretty much. I think that's exactly what this is gonna do, is it will ruin the long twilight struggle.

My, my gut instinct says that this goes tolen. This is Alen episode, and she's struggling with her new, like, she's had this new identity for about a year now. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it's a struggle there. That's, that's where my broken compass wants to point right now. And

Jeff: maybe this is where, not where they come together, come together, but where she and she and.

Click. Like it's not just, um, it's not

Brent: just that they trust each other and grab each other by the face and the camera cuts away just before we get to the good stuff.

Jeff: And then roll. Are they wearing,

Brent: wearing silk pajamas? Right. If we see she in soak

Jeff: pajamas, then we know, Then we know that's the, that's the Babylon five sign.

But maybe, yeah, maybe this is where like the, the culmination of this is that Sheridan supports her through this struggle and it ends with their kiss

Brent: maybe. Oh, yeah. Oh, it, it, Oh. Rings of, um, trip into Paul and that kind of like that private, intimate mm-hmm. or getting into it. Yeah. I like it. I like it.

Yeah. That sounds good. I'm

Jeff: going shadows on this one, but I'm going shadows. I'm for it. I'm for the shadows. I've been, I've been beating this drum, I think since the episode, but yeah, Keer, dude, Keifer's been looking for these guys in hyperspace for so long, and I think that he's going to find them.

Brent: That. Oh yeah. Cuz they actually have been doing something with him. Cause what I was getting ready to say, Jeff, is, is I've noted from the comments a little bit of history of B five apparent. You might have actually told me this at one point, I, I don't remember. But apparently Keer was forced on JMS by the studio.

Like they wanted the hot shot. Good look and chisel chin dude. Um, and the idea that like JMS would put him in and then not do anything with him is absolutely hilarious to me. Uh, so I kind of don't want it to be Keer at all. But you're right, they have seated this whole thing with Keer doing something out there.

So that, that it we're in, Look, what are we three episodes away?

Jeff: Yeah. So here's, here's my twist and here's the jms giving it to the studio as well. Okay. He finds the shadows, he goes racing off to tell Babel on five about it, and they kill him. They blow, they blow up his ship and he

Brent: dies, or they loaded up real good, huh?

Jeff: Or, you know, I'll say this about Ke. He's got Chisel chin. Yeah. He's got great hair. Yeah. You know who else has great hair? Dalen, Morden. Oh, so maybe Keer gets captured and he's given a choice, will kill you, or you go full morden with us. And he does. And that leads to a Morden, Keer and Anna all showing up with to Sheridan at the same time.

Okay, now I know, I'm just, I'm slapping on way too much peanut butter. You bring

Brent: in Keer and you've got the, you've got the quad feta

Jeff: going on there, right? That's what happened to her. Leon's often like, Yes, I will ask people what they want. They're like, No. What

Brent: if that was The problem with Le with, with Li was she's one of these, uh, shadow.

Mind controlled people. She's one of, She's one of the like


Jeff: She's one of the latent personality people. That's what I thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just was a bad program. . It's like the language center didn't quite connect. Right. She

Brent: was one of the early, early test testers.

Jeff: Yeah. They're like, Nah, just send her with the president.

We're gonna kill him anyway. Yeah. But before, so normally this is where we rap and start going to . But Brent, I just one more time, wanna remind everybody we're just a few weeks away now from our season two wrap up.

Brent: Come get the bed boy. Come on. Come get Captain. John Sheridan is an action figure. Folks,

Jeff: for those of you listening, listening to this podcast, who can't see it? Brent's holding up John Sheridan. Again, go to our YouTube.

Brent: I'm sha this is that. You're hearing the shaking of John Sheridan in his box. .

Jeff: It's like proof of life for the prize

But my favorite thing, like, here's why I would enter the drawing for this one, and I would enter that drawing. By going to Apple Podcasts or wherever, Good pods, wherever. Writing a review screenshotting that, sending it to us at Babylon. First on Twitter or Babylon five first That's how I would enter, but I would do it because the little tiny Babylon five station that like literally fits in the figures hand, like he can beat people with the station

It's like his weapon can't swing

Brent: it

Jeff: around. He's like, I'll show you gravitational rotations,

Oh wow. Okay. Well, hey listen, we're gonna find out next week just what the long twilight struggle is going to be about here in a couple weeks. We're gonna wrap up all of season two, which we'll include another touch on this episode, I'm sure. But I want to thank all of you for joining us today. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening to us or if you're watching us on YouTube.

And please, like I said, stop by Apple Podcast. Good pods wherever. Leave us that rating. Send us the screenshot so that you can be entered in the giveaway. Brent, until next time. Hey, Jeff. Jeff?

Brent: Yeah. Yeah, Brent. So, uh, the air filtration system here in my house has kind of gone on the fritz. Yeah. No,

Jeff: no. Mm-hmm.

No way. Uh, Brent. Peace, Peace and long life.