May 22, 2023

Dust to Dust

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...nope! This is dust like sci-fi space drugs dust, and G'Kar is willing to risk it all to weaponize it. Jeff and Brent debate if Bester is really the victim or not.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more:

Executive Producers: 
Chris Aufenthie 
Jeffrey Hayes 
Mega Reacts 
Nathanael Myer 
Peter Schuller 
Rob Bent 
Ron H 
Delenn Drennan 

Adam Pasztory 
David Blau 
Guy Kovel 
John Koniges 

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am watching Babylon 5 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I, despite what some of you out there are thinking right now am also watching Babylon five for the very first time. I promise you, I've never seen anything beyond this episode before. This is it, and I didn't see this week's episode before I did last week's episode. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon 5 for the very first time.

And in this show, the shtick, the twist of this show is that we are comparing Babylon five to Star Trek. Absolutely not. That is not what we're doing. That is not what we do. No, but what we are doing is we are taking that over analytical lens where we look for morals, messages, and meanings in a sci-fi show.

And we're applying it right here to Babylon five. And we're also just trying to see how much we liked this show.

Jeff: Like Brent said, this is not a, and like Brent said, this is not a podcast about Star Trek. We are not comparing Babylon five to Star Trek, but. We both do have Star Trek podcasts and we've watched a whole lot of it before, so those Star Trek references are sure to make their way in.

But to help us with that, we've decided that we will have a rule of three Trek references each per episode, and that's it. Three.

Brent: One of those, no substitutions Exchanges

Jeff: at eight five. Hey Brent. Hey Jeff. We got an email at Babylon five first It's the number five, the word first This is from Andrew, and Andrew sent us a note about life lessons from Babylon.

Five. All right, choice and responsibility. Our choices matter and they shape and impact not only our own lives, but those around. It's important to not only recognize this, but to take responsibility for those choices, good or bad, and whether the consequences are intended or not. Always stand up for what you believe in, no matter the cost.

And no matter if you stand alone, appreciate the moments because they're all that we have. You're alive now today, and that may not be true tomorrow. So appreciate what you have and do the best with the time that you've ha that you've got.

That's Babylon. Five Accord. That's the life lessons of Babylon. Five, according to Andrew. Oh,

Brent: okay. I was like, I mean, it all sounds good, but what does this have to do with us and what we're doing here? Okay.

Jeff: Nothing with us. Everything with to do with Babylon. Five. Okay,

Brent: cool. Andrew? Uh, Yeah, I mean, thanks for doing our podcast for us.

Jeff: So I went ahead and themed these next couple that I'm gonna, I got two more on here. I, I themed up a little bit based on, we'll just say you over on our discord with you. Just say me? Yeah, I did,

Brent: I did. Okay, .

Jeff: Okay. Over on our Discord, which you can get access to through our patreon, five first and number five, the word first.

Uh, the, that's linked down in the notes as well. But we've been talking ironically about Brent's hit streak and Jeff's misses on the predictions and framed the nara, said, Hey, Brent, don't worry about it. Jeff's a p negative four . I don't think you're going to need anything, including Mary had a little lamb to block him from getting any guesses.


Brent: Oh, that's Mia, right? Yeah, that's Mia. Don't Mia's Awesome man. That's cool.

Jeff: that was good. And then over on YouTube. Uhhuh, sir Nuka lot. Had a good one. Pretty on point. I I, I'm just gonna put, it's so perfect cuz a couple of us are thinking this says ha ha ha. Sometimes I swear Brent is psychic and has probably read the script.

Brent: I've just watched a lot of sci-fi. I it, I mean like there are some things that you're just like, this has to be the next line. And in good writing, that is the next line because you set me up to be there. You need to deliver. There is such a thing as subverting expectations. But generally you want it to pay off.

There was one line, uh, specifically, oh, you know what it was in this episode, Jeff? Uh, people can see it if they go back and watch my, uh, my reaction video to this episode. But, uh, it, it's when ster first comes on the station, he's looking at Sheridan and Sheridan's like, what do you want me to give it to you straight?

And investor's all like, yeah, straight up. Yeah. And be, and, and Sheridan just walks up and just looks at him. And I said, while Sheridan was in the process of walking up, well, I don't like you. Like I, I just, I just said that. And then, and then Bruce Box Lightner opens his mouth and goes, I don't like you. I

Jeff: was like, yeah.

Like, I

Brent: got this. I just, it happens, man. It

Jeff: happens. Just living my life. Three seconds ahead of everything that's happening. Listen, listen.

Brent: You know what though? I for, for all of. My wife is like 50 times better than this, than I am. Really? Yeah. And like, we'll watch those, those like whodunit shows. Uh, we, we like, uh, we usually do the comedy ones, so we'll do like psych or monk or, you know, those, those, those kinds of episodes.

And usually within like the first 10 minutes she's like, oh yeah, it's that person right there. And I'm like, how did you know that They haven't even given you enough information yet. How did you know that it wasn't even

Jeff: a part of it?

Well, Jeff, as fun as that is, it is fun.

Brent: As fun as that is. I bet you don't know where I'm going with with

Jeff: this next, I think I do. I I got this one. Oh yeah. Make a prediction. Go ahead. This is us, this is us on our predictions, predicting our predictions that Well, that you were pretty darn Right on. Yeah. So

Brent: with our rule of three, We play a game at the end of the show where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be based on title alone.

Never having seen a thumbnail or at least paying attention to it, never reading a description. Not that those ever really matter, especially when you're looking at this on like Netflix or this isn't on Netflix, but you know what I mean. That little blurb, they, those are almost never right. We've never read any of that stuff.

We have no idea what's happening. It's just the title of the episode. We make a guess and you guys all laugh at us because we're very wrong. Last week, Jeff, I made a commitment to the folks out there. You did . Yes, you did. I told them I, I said, it has been way too long since I've gotten right on one of these predictions.

I guarantee to win this week. Now I'll get to mine in just a moment. But Jeff, do you remember what you said last week this episode was gonna be about the

Jeff: runner up behind by 64 and a half miles. Jeff, what did you guess this one was gonna be? . I totally thought that we were gonna. This was gonna be the ashes to ashes, dust to dust, kind of a, you know, kind of a thing.

Yeah. And we would get a look back at Yvanova's childhood, maybe explore some of her dad's, uh, the, the death, his death and how that impacted her, but really focusing on what it was like growing up as a latent telepath. And, I mean, hey, they said the words latent telepath in this one. That was a piece of this whole episode.

It really was. Yeah. Like, so, I mean, I got some of the words, right. So, Hey Brent, why don't you tell us what you guessed?

Brent: Yeah. You also got words like, uh, and the, the, they used dumb a couple times. You got is

Jeff: a few times what Ivanova was in the episode. Yes. She was mentioned her. So yes, she was.

Brent: Yes. So here's what I said, I, I pieced it together real fast.

Dust is the drug that we've heard about so often here on Babylon five. So often, so often. I, I mean, it was in the first episode and we've, they've, they do mention it time and time, you know, they've mentioned it enough that it sticks in my brain. Somebody out there is making a comment right now. They've actually only said it three times throughout the course of the series so

Jeff: far.

And here are the timestamps of the episodes that

Brent: exactly. Somebody's doing that right now. We got, and hey, you out there doing it, you are awesome. You go. That's, do you, that's, that's the kind of, that's the level of commitment and nerdom that I need from the community out here, Jeff. It really is. Uh, cuz I could probably do that with a few Star Trek episodes, Fair.

Um, but anyway, I said that this episode was gonna be about dust. I said it was gonna be moving through the station and they've gotta have to figure it out and it's killing people as it's going through the station and they're gonna have to do it. I might have gotten all of that

Jeff: right. Yeah. A hundred percent of that.

Brent: Yes. And I know some people were like, well, nobody died. I'm Look, those two people on gurneys, they were on gurneys. We're just gonna go ahead and say that they died.

Jeff: Yeah. I will say it probably wasn't dust that killed him. It was Franklin in his irresponsibility. But I mean, the dust is what brought them into Med Labs.

So was that

Brent: before or after Franklin tried to kiss him

Jeff: with his extra cot that he has that no one else gets? Yeah, we could go on. We're not going to, but we could. Hey, let, there are a couple pieces to this episode though, Brent, that I, I take some solace in that you missed. So to remind everybody what this episode was about, including those pieces that you didn't quite get, why don't you take us through dust to dust?

Brent: Well, hey, remember last week when Chicky came in and set up a whole bunch of new rules trying to control people's thoughts and opinions? Well, it looks like some, a-hole security guards are taking it upon themselves. To enforce those rules, even though Chick ain't here. No mo. Well, this doesn't sit too well with Sheridan who says that the Ministry of Peace isn't here, and this is Babylon five.

So if this happens again, there will be consequences. Meanwhile, down below a bunch of people who are clearly tripping on something hardcore are going haywire, ripping pipes and conduits off the wall, screaming into the void. Make it stop. None of whom, by the way, were Dwight Schultz. I know because I checked.

It seems these people are way for it on dust. This is the drug that we've heard about from time to time ever since the gathering. Only this time we get a little bit more information on what it does. It seems that this drug. Can give the taker a highly advanced, if not temporary, telepathic ability, and it can even enhance the latent telepathic abilities that are found inside of non telepaths, which is totally awesome.

Telepaths, you say, well, that just means that this would be a great time for our dear old friend Baster to show up. And guess what? He's right outside waiting to dock. Everyone's a bit nervous about having him on board the station as he likes to scan people without their permission, which is kind of against the C rules, but Delin has an idea that just might work, but Ivanova would rather just blast them out of the sky or space.

Sheridan stops her by saying, fight them without becoming them. Anyway, Dylann's cool idea is simply this. Get a bunch of Mbar Telepaths who just happen to be on the station for some unknown reason, or maybe they're actually the Mbar that are located on the White Star. I'm not really sure. But collectively, they can actually stop ster from scanning people that is, unless Buster's willing to take this new drug, which is going to suppress his own telepathic abilities, which he does.

And honestly, I'm not really sure that it works, Jeff, and I'll talk about that a little bit later. But hey, let's just suppose that it does. And with that Garib Baldi investor, go, all good cop, bad cop, trying to find out who's moving the dust through the station. And you're never gonna believe who it was.

Linstrom, who's that? Well, that's just some guy we've just met, but he has been hired by Kar of all people. To bring dust into the station, smuggle it in because Jaar believes that he can use this as a weapon against the Sonari. We're not really told exactly what Jaar plans to do with it, and honestly, I'm not really sure what it was and if it would've worked anyway.

But as Lindstrom explains to jaar exactly how this drug works, Kar tells us that while there are no more Gnar Telepaths today, there did in fact used to be some way back in the day, they were just exterminated. So Kar gives the drug a go and it turns Kar into an all out raving lunatic monster, ripping up and destroying everything in his path.

And that's the point when he decides to go get Londo and go get him. He does kar rips Londo a new hole. Like a lot of new holes and then in an almost improbable way initiates a mind Meld.

Kar is walking around inside Rondo's head. He's seeing the embarrassing moment that Londo gets promoted to being the ambassador of Babylon five. He also gets flashes of basically everything we've seen from Londo in the first two seasons, including his collusion with Morden and the shadows. Kar freaks out over this whole thing because now he knows that it's Rondo's fault.

Londo has been at the center of this whole thing, and just about the time Kar tries to kill Lando, he has stopped in his vision by his dying Father strung up in a. His father tells him that he has to put aside the endless cycle of hatred and try to build a better future. And then at least according to what the subtitles on the episode told me, his father turns into Jaquan.

And you were there. And you were there. And you were there, and you were there. And Jaquan begins to tell him and convinced Jaar that he has to do the right thing because otherwise if he doesn't do the right thing, it's gonna lead to the destruction of all narn of the entire race. And he says, yes, it's true.

Some are gonna have to be sacrificed in order to save everyone else. And then suddenly kar slash or Jaquan slash Ja jakarta's daddy turns into Jalon, which is the narn version of Kosh who just goes flying away when Kar wakes up Stone sober, having just met his God face-to-face. Kar accepts full responsibility for his actions and the OS Ombudsman woman person throws the bucket Ja car for his utter destructive assault on Lando by sentencing him to 60 days in the Brig.

Jaar seems like he's a new man though. And as this episode ends, we see ster leaving the station talking to another P cop, lamenting that the dust, which the core created to make new telepaths hasn't really ever worked, but at least it's back among the humans where it belongs the end. Jeff, what did you think of this episode of Babylon?


Jeff: I love Bester episodes like he even made mind war, almost watchable. Right. Like, he's just so good. Right. I'm gonna tell you though, here's my hot take. Beter was right, he was justified, and he was actively bullied by the crew of Babylon five in this episode. I think that the crew were the villains in, uh, in this one.

Brent: Uh, okay.

Jeff: Explain yourself. Well, I mean, we can talk about it when we start diving in, but I mean, dude didn't even walk in the door yet and they're, they're talking about killing him, like they're in a war council being like, you know, I think our only real option here is to kill him. And he's just here to do the same thing he did last time he was here.

I think the last time we saw him was the, uh, uh, race through the Underground Railroad. Yeah. Race through dark places. Thing is the Underground Railroad and hey, underground Railroad, fine. You know, he was helping unregistered tele pass also highly illegal. He was just there doing his job, what he's doing here.

Also, they took a lot of their fears, a lot of their assumptions with honestly very little evidence and dumped it right on top of him and treated him that way. I think they were horrible to him, but you know, who else was horrible in this one? In such an awesome way? And that's Jaar ster. Oh, well, yeah.

Baster was also terrible. That's the thing. We see parts of ster, you know, talking like we saw him in the race through dark places where he, you know, pulled the, extracted the thing out of dude's mind and just didn't even care that he died. Yeah. Nobody, nobody on the, on the station saw that. His little back and forth with the P cop here.

Nobody saw that. They don't know. I mean, whatever. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand up for ster through this one. That's my position. But Kar man, dude, he hit rock stinking bottom in this episode doing drugs, beating Londo within an inch of his life. I mean, even at the end, Franklin's like, I don't know if he's gonna make it.

Like, I don't know if he's gonna do okay. Yeah. And I think that's, and I, I loved, I loved that he's there and I love, uh, the, just, well, just the god, the, the, the games that, that Kosh is playing at this point, he's just moving all this stuff. I really, I really dug this episode. Like Kar went last week. I think we were talking about he should be the next guy on the war council.

Yep. He, he's gone from that to a hundred percent. Just, he's the wild card. Now, like, who knows? Don't, who knows what religious fervor he's gonna come up with.

Brent: Yeah, I don't think so. I, I think his whole experience with Jaquan or whatever it was, Jalan at the end of this episode is, uh, he, he's going to, I, I think Jaar is gonna become the catalyst for Londo Malawi's redemption.

Yeah. And I say that saying that Londo Madar Maari is irredeemable. Okay. And this episode proved it yet again. Uh, big time. Uh, b like that whole scene with the drowsy like londo is disgusting. He is a piece of trash.

Jeff: Well, he even, he even like was big timing and, and insulting veer in the work that Veer was doing.

Yeah. I mean he was just, he was just, except for the very, very end, you know, we can, we can talk through that a little bit. But everything up until the very, very end, he was just a piece of absolute centara garbage just. Horrible. Absolutely horrible. What did, what were your first, first reactions to this one?

Yeah, so,

Brent: um,

I liked this episode like, not just because I was completely right, but I really, really enjoyed this episode. Um,

the, the biggest surprise of this episode to me though was Kar Big time. Yeah. The, the fact that Kar thought to bring drugs into the station and he was gonna somehow weaponize that, who thinks that I'm gonna use this as a, as a weapon of war? Now if, if you are trying to subvert a government long, , if you're trying to bring down a people long term, I could kind of see how this works.

You know, you've got years and years and years to wait. You're fine. You're gonna play the long game fine. Kars in the middle of a war for the very existence of his people. Mm-hmm. , the longer he waits, the more his people suffering, the more his people die. He does not have time to go through this process.

So I'm not entire, like, I don't know if maybe he was trying to like, uh, send it out there and let the, let the sonari destroy themselves. Like get 'em all hopped up on Dustin, have them all destroying themselves. I, I don't know what he was trying to do. Um, but

the revelation that, and I don't know that we've ever heard this before, Jeff, so correct me if I'm wrong, the revelation that Narn used to be telepath. Because we saw, I mean, I think this was a, a gathering episode, or maybe it was the next episode after that. Ja Car's trying to mate, he's trying to bring Telepaths into his community, into his people, and turns out they used to be there and Nas carry a latent telepathic

Jeff: gene.

Yeah, that was huge. We hadn't heard that because you're right, there was the gathering and then there was the episode with, uh, the, the human telepath that Talia and Ivanova were fighting over who ended up going to Minbar, where again, like that was the deal. Natas set up was that you can come, we're gonna, you know, we, we can breed you, we can do all these things.

So they're trying to rebuild it, but the fact they used to be telepaths, that was news completely. Yeah. And I, and I thought too, cuz they said it a number of times, this drug works by activating the latent telepath gene. Mm-hmm. in people, which I got two takeaways there. One was, Denar have an active telepath gene still, or latent or whatever.

Cuz it worked for, for Kar Kar. Yeah. But all humans have one because it seems to work like you don't hear about them doing the dust and it not working. So yeah. Goes back to my theory on, I'm sorry.

Brent: Can I, can I jump in on that though? Yeah. Because what it makes me have to wonder is how is it different than what Ivanova is?

Because Ivanova has called herself a latent telepath, right? Mm-hmm. , um, yeah. Where she clearly has telepathic ability. They're just really, really weak y you know? Uh, but she clearly has this, there's something different about her. I e what was it last week that we saw? Was she plugged into the machine? I think so, yeah.

And all was like, Hey, what's going on with you? Because most humans shouldn't be able to do. Well, duh. She's got the whole latent telepath. Like that's different than having the latent telepath

Jeff: gene. Well, I think about it like, and I, I'm, I'm gonna show my ignorance here, but like, we'll say blue eyes, right?

Like a lot of people have a latent blue eye gene, but I don't have blue eyes, you know, so a lot of people have the latent telepath gene, but she is a latent telepath. Like she has some abilities. Most humans probably just don't have any ability. They just have the gene. Mm-hmm. in there. And that's probably showing my ignorance of the word latent more than anything.

But it is wild. And I think you, you ask a great question, what was the plan, right? Was he gonna load up a bunch of centar with it and have them go and like get into the centar or a bunch of nans with it and have 'em go and. get him to cent's Heads or was he gonna poison the water supply on Centara Prime or someone's poison the water hole , right?

Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, it, it's a, it's a messed up that is a villain, hardcore gorilla warfare kind of idea. But I don't know how it's supposed to work.

Brent: I don't either. I, I have no idea. I, I think, honestly, given everything that's going on, that's probably supposed to be the least of our concerns as the viewer right now,

Right. Um, because dust is back, it's moving through the station. Ja Car's done this and, uh, be, I mean, okay, is it just me or did Bester really not serve any purpose in this episode except for the final line where he was like, Hey, you know, we created this and it didn't work to bring out any new telepaths, so let's walk away.

At least we have it back. Like that was the, on like, to give us that particular revelation. Ster didn't serve any real purpose in the rest of this episode other than just being awesome

Jeff: outside. Yeah. Outside of that piece, at the very end, they could have gotten a, a, a stellar calm right from Earth Force saying, Hey, we got a lead.

There's a bunch of dust moving through the station. Here's what we know. They could have done that, and we would've had the exact same episode. I mean, Gar

Brent: Baldy could have gone and interrogated that guy without ster sitting right there. And it had been literally the same

Jeff: conversation. Mm-hmm. , the only difference is we got to hold up a huge mirror to Garabaldi and how he behaves in every interrogation.

Oh. But Garabaldi had to call Ster out on doing that exact same thing. Right? Right.

Brent: Um, so not really a best like Bester was in it. But this wasn't a Bester episode

Jeff: though. It wasn't, but it was a Bester episode and that it added a lot to, like, he definitely, they took advantage of it being best. in the episode, you know what I mean?

Like buster's here we're gonna use, the way I see it is it's, it was about building on his character, the Char, because we talked about in the last episode he was on, the reason Beter works as a villain is because we believe that he believes he's doing the right thing and he's got points that we can connect with him on.

So, you

Brent: know, I, I mean, speaking of that, when he's giving his little speech in this episode about, um, oh, what was he saying? He, he was talking about, uh, uh, he's here to look out for people and for humanity and yeah, he's, he's really working on the side of earth and like I'm sitting there going either, Walter Kig is a much better actor than I ever gave him credit for, or I'm actually believing that Beto really might have.

The best intentions here, even though a lot of his methods are bad, he really may have some of the best intentions when it comes to, uh, earth and, and people and humanity. And then we got the final sentence where he is like, yeah, we created all this trying to make little Teles and none of that works. So ha whatever, back to the, at least we're gonna screw 'em up some more anyway.

Jeff: Yeah. Somehow, but you're right, you, when they were doing that, it was, it was literally that, cuz it was, it was not only that he thinks he's standing there for humanity, but he is like, there are so many things going on you don't even know about because we stop them like we are there, we are stopping them.

But is, it's kind of funny you mentioned his acting cuz my, I watched this one with my wife, which is not a thing I, I normally do. Right. And at first she was like, Hey, is that, you know, is that, is that check off? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. But he actually gets to do stuff in, in this series. He gets to do things and she's like, It looks like they told him to forget everything he ever learned in acting school and just be as wooden as possible.

And it was , it was in the scene. I'll, I'll, I'll in the team, in the scene where he says, oh yeah, that's what, and we learned and heard dissect, oh, nevermind that. Which by the way, we will not be seen evil Talia,

Brent: they dissected Talia dissected. Are you

Jeff: kidding me? Totally. Biology 1 0 1, Talia Winters. Which honestly, now that, okay, which is another thing where Cyco is evil.

Like we're, I'm not disputing that Cyco is, is the, is evil and horrible in this, but the way we were ki we kind of take things is, oh, they got these latent, uh, personalities in people waiting to take over. They're making dust, trying to do stuff. They're breeding people together. Ster was literally, I believe, truly shocked at what happened to Talia.

I think Cyco as a whole was surprised and that's why they dissected her debriefed and dissected her. was, what the heck happened here? How did we do this? I don't think Cyco is, as some people in Cycore, I'll say that some people in Cyco are not nearly, and we know that with Haram and Gray Ray Ba way back, Jeffrey Comb.

Right. You know, and I think there's some stuff with, with Ster as well, where it's just, they're not nearly as evil as, as we often think them to be. Jeff,

Brent: they dissected Talia

Jeff: Well, yeah. Cause they were curious. I mean, the, the, I didn't say they were good. I mean,

Brent: like, no, I, look, I don't, I don't know what happened with Talia.

I don't know. I don't know what, uh, Andrea Thompson, seriously think that was her act, the actress's name. I don't know what she did to piss people off. I know her and Jerry Doyle divorced at some point, I think, during the run of the show. So I don't know if that had anything to do with it. I don't know if she slept with the wrong person.

I don't know what she did, but she, you know, like, like Michael O'Hare. Gets, is that his name? Michael O'Hare, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, he goes out for, for, uh, understandable, but not the best reasons. But they left a window open for him to return the, the, the, who was the doctor from the gathering.

We liked a lot. Uh,

Jeff: Benjamin Kyle, that

Brent: guy, there's a, they've mentioned him at least once and there's still a window that he could be out there. Leeta Alexander returns, she's, yeah. She's back. They, they left these doors open. People we've heard about the trap door that, that j m s had for all of his characters.

He trapped doored her and then slammed the door shut. Yeah. And said, you're done on this

Jeff: show. That's hardcore, hardcore.

Brent: And I'm so sad because that means we're not gonna see evil Talia again.

Jeff: I know. Like I know selfishly it's a loss. I mean, it's a huge race. But, but, but I think as much as, as I'm saying, Cyco is not as evil as we make him out to be.

They have zero regard for life, for human life whatsoever. And this, I mean, wow. What, what, yeah. What better, Hey, we're curious about this. Let's di let's cut you open as a human being that we've already basically killed and then, and then cut you open on top of it. That,

Brent: that actually begs a really good question that has not much really to do with this episode, but it, it's worth talking if Cyco doesn't care about life and they clearly have shown that they don't, they have, they have no regard for the sovereignty of, of a.

Right. They will breed them. They will force them into marriages. They will force them to join a group or be drugged or die. They will hunt people down. They will, they will implant personalities into their head to use them as, as whatever. Uh, they're working with the shadows we now know, right? Yep. Um, they eliminated, uh, the, the president to put in their own guy.

They're doing whatever they got going on with Mars. Cyco is bad news. They don't care about people. So what do they care about? What, like, what is Cycore? So what are they real? They obviously, if they, if they don't care about people, that also means they don't really care about Earth. They're not doing this to be propping up Earth, otherwise they would care about people.

What is it that Ty

Jeff: Core really cares about? I think they care about Earth and I think they care about people. They care about the best. People and everything else is chaff and deadweight and needs to be purged. It's, it's, uh, master race kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. and in their mind, you know, master race to them are telepaths and not just all tele, I mean, clearly look how they treat most of the people who are teles.

There's a very upper crust sort of a thing. And so I think, I think it's what they would consider true humanity to be. Um,

Brent: maybe, maybe, maybe. I hope we'll find out over the course of the show.

Jeff: I really don't, but it's a good point. It's like, we're here. What, what did he, I he has said, um, oh, I found it. Cause I took the note and I found it.

Your buster sees himself and Cyco as all that stand between humanity and the

Brent: abyss. Does he really though, or was this just the line he was feeding? Feeding them because like, like I said, I almost believed that Besser was really here until we got to that final scene and we saw that line of them walking away.

And that, for me anyway, completely erased

Jeff: everything, all the good of what I think. I think it all depends on how you define the abyss, right? Because the abyss, I think I would define it as being humans and other races that aren't up to their standards. You're no good. You're not worth anything. You know, you're, you're a waste of air in our resources.

Mm-hmm. . So I'll use you as long as you're useful, then you're gone just completely disposable. So that, that, that master that the 1%, you know, as it were, or the great Brazilian, uh, sci-fi show, 3% from the 3% that mm-hmm. gets to exist. That's what they're after. They're after that little tiny slice of humanity, I think.

Brent: All right. Well, um, hey, real quick question about ster. . How did he know that that drug was gonna take three hours to work? It's

Jeff: a, it's, it's a cyco drug.

Brent: Well, but he said that they were, they, they had Franklin said they'd modified it. Oh yeah. It's a good point. Do something for him. How did Bester know it was gonna take three hours?

I'm just saying, and then when you take that and you put that into the, the conversation that they had where they were interrogating the one dude, and, you know, and I'm like, ster, just read that dude's mind. This medicine's not working on ster. I wanted, like, despite what they have you to believe, I don't know that that medicine really worked on ster.

I really don't.

Jeff: I wanted to think that, especially in that scene. I wanted to think, but he was right. Like any, he, he, he knew, knows he's got a card to play. He's got that badge, he's got that uniform all and, and dude even said, stay outta my mind. Yeah, you're right. Strike that from the record, Mr. Garibaldi.

He's right. He does, he does have rights. You're right. It's. But, so I think it was a little, I, I saw that scene less as saying the drug didn't work and more as just like him holding that mirror up to Garabaldi and being like, you abuse your power. Just like I'm abusing my power.

Cause I, I took it the other direction. It's gonna take three hours. Cool. I'll come down in four. I'll even build in a buffer. I am so, I am so willing to do whatever it takes because you've made up this huge straw man that I, that I am. Mm-hmm. , whatever. Cool. Give me your drugs. I'll give you extra time. Call me a pinata.

Cool. I'll roll with it. Whatever. Doesn't matter. He says, that was great. I loved that. Well, you think I'm full of candy and toys and children love me. That's great.

Brent: Oh, man. All right. Uh, so the, the mbar, uh, that whole situation. Okay. Did we just need to fill in time in this episode? Like, I, like, I'm, I'm struggling with what this was really all about. The tele, are we? Yeah. The, the whole thing with Sheridan and Veer and the Telepaths shutting them down and, oh, here's this drug.

And like, it just felt like maybe we were filling in time by the end of the episode

Jeff: almost, to be honest. But I, I still think, like, I don't know if this was intentional and I, I, I'm probably reading too much into it, but it was literally, hi Bester, we don't know you, we don't trust you and we don't like you.

And I, I respect that both Sheridan and Ivanova just said as much to his face, right? Mm-hmm. , that's cool. At least you're being honest with him. But, but they're like, Hey, we're either gonna have his biari hanging out with us so they can block you, or you're gonna take this drug so your abilities don't work one or the other.

Here you go. And I think the point was him. Yeah. I, I think what it did is it showed. that his intent truly was to protect earth's interests. I don't want menari around hearing this stuff. Mm-hmm. . So if that means you gotta give me a drug and suppress my talent, fine. I'm happy to do that because I'm all that stands between you and the abyss.

Because I mean, when you think about when they talked about it in the War Council, it's hard. So I I what we know, I what I said earlier, what we know about ster and what the crew of Babylon five know about ster are very different things. Mm-hmm. , but knowing what we know of what the crew knows of ster their behavior in everything they did and said, basically held up a huge spotlight and said, Hey, baster, pko, psyop guy, we have stuff we are actively trying to hide from.

And we're gonna go to extreme measures to make sure to, we can keep hiding it from you. Um, and now you know that we're hiding things from you mm-hmm. . So please don't come back and try and surprise us in some way and try and scan us or try and learn something. Please. Like the whole thing just felt pretty Bush League to be honest to me.

Yeah. It felt like they were, I mean, like I said earlier, he hadn't even gotten on the station and they are threatening to kill him. Ivanova ordered the station to fire on him. And I get, she has a different set of circumstances. She's got a different relationship with Cyco. I get that. But for everybody else like that just seemed, it seemed extreme and I, and I feel like, I feel like they're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where someone is gonna show up and they're gonna totally

Brent: expose 'em.

But the thing is, they really did have something that they couldn't let Oh. Totally. Pester know about. They couldn't let know about this. What are they calling it? The. The, the conference of light or whatever it Yeah. Something conspiracy of light or whatever they're calling themselves. Um, they, they, they literally can't let him find out about that.

Like, to me, you know what the easiest answer to the whole deal is? Don't be on the station when he gets there. Exactly.

Jeff: Exactly. Or, Hey, Zach, I got one for you. I, I need you to go work with Beter on this. Yeah. You guys go

Brent: find this out. Give him whatever he needs and we're gonna be gone. We're gonna be away at a conference.

Jeff: Something. Yeah. There's always a conference on who?

Brent: Okay. So Sheridan, Ivanova, Garabaldi all gone. Who's in charge of the station?

Jeff: You know, in the season one they talked about that there has to be a command level person. There has to be a command level person. I don't know if there's any other command level people.

That's a

Brent: very few command level people for a base like that, Uhhuh . , you know, like, anyway.

Jeff: Oh, there's dude, um, oh my gosh, what's he, he's in the command and control place. He's a lieutenant somebody. He's the one who, um, when Ivanova, when they were doing the s a t prep for the alien probe, Uhhuh, and Sheridan said something and Ivanova was like, did you hear that?

Did you hear that? He's like, no, ma'am, I didn't hear that. Yeah, you didn't hear that. Like, he's got some back and forth. He's lieutenant somebody, I think I forget his name. I bet he'd be in charge. Okay, fair enough. He gets lines. Yeah, he gets lines. He has a rank, so that's, yeah. Okay. Put him in charge. He's probably got a name in the script somewhere, right?

Yeah. Put him there and have Zack in charge of security. They're good. There you go.

Brent: Problem solved. See, that's, I mean, you've got to have that piece. I mean, it could, it could be like in discovery where everybody's a lieutenant commander now, or higher or higher. Everybody's a commander.

Jeff: Why not? Heck, you can't even see our ranks on here anymore.

We don't, doesn't you can't even,

Brent: anyway, anyway, okay. Um,

you wanna touch on the beginning piece of the episode real quick? Yeah. That was, it was a, it was a carryover from last week

Jeff: a bit. I think it was an important one too, right? Because that was, uh, shopkeeper was putting up little placards saying, you know, get the assassin out of office, an anti Clark thing.

And the security guard was basically harassing him, telling him it was against the rules to take down. Called down and brought Sheridan, brought the commander of the station in on the conversation and

Brent: the commander was like, um, how about, no,

Jeff: he said something like, uh, I thought it was pretty cool cuz the, the security guy was, I mean, hey, I'm just following orders.

Do I make myself clear? . Yes sir. Yes sir. Cause he just wanted to stop to it. I You can't help but think though, we talked last week, how I'm pretty sure that whole, that whole Clark investigation, thing's not gonna turn out the way the Council of Light is hoping it will turn out. So is, is Sheridan allowing that?

What they'll end up calling propaganda on the station, that that's gonna be yet another thing that they're gonna use to try and drive that will ultimately drive him and the crew away from Earth Force.

His seditious acts, his seditious acts station captain. Right. But speaking of seditious acts, who that aren't seditious and all, and that was a really terrible segue, but we got veer, veer came back,

Brent: veer is back. Love it. And he came

Jeff: back speaking of you nailing things, he came back in almost the exact way you said you hoped you would.

And I was like dressed like a minari. Totally, totally buying into their way of life.

Brent: I want a mbar robe of welcoming that looks so cozy. Like that. That would be, that would be something that Brent would go to a con and be like, yo, you got my size Cause I'm buying this thing.

Jeff: Yep. Let's make this

Brent: thing happen.

Yeah. Like, Etsy hit me up. Let me give you the dimensions I need it made in. Come on, let's

Jeff: go. But he's loving it. He's loving it on Minbar and he's killing it, it sounds like. Yeah. Doing a

Brent: great, he's a great job. Ves doing his, doing his thing, man. When Veer says Tolen and, and Lan at the end, he is like, Hey listen, I just wanna take a moment, say thanks for everything you're doing to help me out.

Cause this is really cool. I'm really enjoying this. This is great. And, and you know, honestly, the, I, I made a note for this. The hope that Veer holds out in his heart for Lando is so refreshing and it's so endearing. I think it's so misplaced. Like Londo does not deserve veer. I'm sorry. Veer does not deserve londo.

Whatever it is. Um, that probably

Jeff: actually works both ways. It does work both.

Brent: Yeah. Um, but it just, and and I, you know, and I, I I mean Jeff, this ch this is their next t-shirt In a world full of lawn dos, be a veer. Be a ve be a ve Yes. Bevere Beiner. Don't be in a to .

Jeff: Don't be in that to That's so true. I'm gonna capture that right now.

you YouTube watching this

Brent: happen, we actually have a list of t-shirt ideas that Jeff and I have started keeping track of.

All right. But Vera was great. Londo sucked though. I, I know, I think we referenced this a minute ago. Londo just sucked.

Jeff: I totally, totally, yes. Gosh. It started in that, um, That peace negotiation between the, the drowsy and him. Yeah, and just the, just the, the pettiness, right. What was it he wanted?

Brent: We need a buffer zone and we need seven of your colon plants.

Well, you said you only needed two. Well, you know, we've had to go in and spend a bunch of money to secure the area. Meaning to take your zones. Now we gotta take more of your zone because you made us take your zone. Like, wait, what?

Jeff: Yeah. Last week when, when, uh, Chicky, is that her name? When Chicky was like, yeah, they're not warmongers because we don't sign treaties with war mongers.

Yeah. This, this, miss Musante is what war mongering looks like. Right, like textbook, textbook thing here. And then, right. He even veer, veer hands his report on Minbar to lawn and asks for him to look over it, which is a great thing. He got a mentor, he got, Hey, I'm doing this thing. Will you look it over?

Check it out. And he's just like, yeah, you can't say this. Oh my God, I haven't seen political naivete and like, like just tearing

Brent: veer apart. He said, he said, yes, since Emperor so-and-so did this. And we said that he needed to be sterilized. Yeah. . And then we realized who he was married to and we realized it didn't matter.

So it was like, wow. That's, that was

Jeff: just, it was just mean. It was just mean of him. And like you said, that hope that he holds out, veer holds out for him. He even said like to, to Lanier and Lenni says, you know, God, we just gotta get, we gotta get Lando to Minbar. You know, just the, the peace there and everything.

It's, it, it'd be such a great thing. And Lanier had this great line where he said that a, a, the darkness in the heart. Cannot be cured by moving the body. Right. That was so deep. That was such great insight. And it also, I think, is Lanier who has a bond with Londo as well. Basically Lanier's saying he that dude's toast, like Right.

Don't bring him to my planet.

So they all really have left is Ja Car's trip.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, you, you remember how Ivanova wanted to, uh, take out ster? Yes. And then she's like, can we wound him just a little. I wanted to do that with Londo and I'll, I'll be real on a spoiler alert, when Jaar went after Londo, I didn't feel the least bit bad for Londo when Londo is sitting there like flopping around like a guppy on the shore.

I was like, dude, you deserve every single ounce

Jeff: of that. You know what's bad? Even worse than that, like now, now that we're doing our true confessions here. Yeah. When, when he busts in and he's holding veer up, you know, Darth Vader style in a New Hope, just Uhhuh, . I was like, wow, that sure sucks for Veer. I'm okay with him taking that hit knowing what's about to come for Londo.

Mm. Like, I'm not happy Veer was hurt. That's horrible. And it's a, the heartbreaking part of this, but that level, like him being okay, makes that level of collateral damage. Like, oh, it's okay. Londo needed to have his butt handed to him and he needed to, and I love too, Kar just staring at him face to face after he beat him up.

He's just laying there, staring him down, waiting to get into his mind. Londo that. Well,

Brent: let's talk about that. So Kar is going off the rails. He try, by the way, before he does anything, he tries it himself. I actually respect Kar for that. Like, hey, I'm gonna take this. Um, did he intend to give it to the nan to have the naar flip out and go crazy and beat all the, he must, he must have

Jeff: otherwise why He didn't use it on this Atari themselves.

Yeah. He must have thought it was a narn thing cuz why take it otherwise, I guess,

Brent: I guess. Well, I mean, unless the guy said, Hey listen, this acts on, on telepathic abilities in Chicago's, wait, we don't have telepaths, but we have the gene. Maybe it'll do something. And Oh boy did it do something. By the way, the, the, the footage on him tripping out was kind of cool.

Like, it was great like that. I, that's, I, I've never, but that's exactly what I imagined it. You know,

Jeff: like I, short, short story, um, I'll just say that I have probably spent in one sitting at one point. Mm-hmm. , four to six hours staring at my hand. So like that that scene when he was like up against the wall and whoa.

And kind of hearing people's thoughts. And then he saw his hand move and he stopped and he looked at it. I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling. I know that feeling. Pretty all right. And I wouldn't have done the exact same thing. . Whoa,

Brent: look at that. Whoa.

Jeff: Right. I love that he had, uh, like you knew not only that he was all high and drugged up, but that he was gonna be super telepathic and empathic because he had the beta OID contacts in.

Brent: Yes, he did. Like I sat there and I went, oh, his eyes are all black. Oh, that's messed up. What did, and it wasn't until his eyes went back to normal that I was like, oh, this are normally red. You know? Yeah. I was like, his eyes are jacked, man.

Jeff: Like, I kind of hope this unlocks some telepathy in him. And we get that more often.

Like he looks some queen, the eyes go black and you know, it's time. Right. But you know, we've talked quite a bit, especially in the second season when hostilities between the Nans and the Centara really picked up about how like the nans just keep getting their butts handed to them. Like these outta shape fat centar or beaten up groups of Nans for the first time.

Like this was the Kar and the Narn that I thought we were gonna see all the way back in the gathering. Just brutal. I'm glad they didn't show any of the beat down, but just the effects of it. Like when he was laying there, I mean, the makeup on Londo, he, I mean, three or four hits from permanent brain damage, if not death.

Right? Like he, he rocked. Rocked him big time.

But then he goes into his mind,

Brent: right? Uh, dude, I mean, he, he was one step shy of going my mind To your mind. He was right. But he jumps in and he catches Lando in probably what has been one of Longo's most embarrassing moments, which is interesting that that is the embarrassing moment. Think about what we know of Londo.

We saw Londo flailing on a table kissing the ass of a golden idol. But this was his most embarrassing

Jeff: moment. Well, it's humiliating for him. The emperor wanted him humiliated and saw his worth to the Centai Republic as a joke, right? Um, and I think too to your, so like, you know, he stands there, Jaar sits there laughing at him.

Ha ha, you're a Joe lot. The great Londo Maari. . Right. But you made the point earlier that you think that this is gonna be part of the catalyst to Kar redeeming Lando at some point. Do you think he has some empathy or sympathy even for Lando in this moment? Like, is that part of it? Yeah. Does Jaar

Brent: have sympathy for, for him?

Um, maybe. Maybe he does. Uh, I don't know. That's a good question. Um,

Jeff: maybe until he sees, sees the morden because like, I'll, I'll never forget the coming of Sha once,

Brent: once he sees the Morden stuff. Kars

Jeff: like, yeah, you're dead to me. Yeah, because that's, it reminded me of they're coming into shadows when the emperor was gonna apologize, you know, and start making things right.

And Kar was on cloud nine and dancing and bought Londo a drink, and Londo was like, I just sent a superhuman race to kill all of you. Oh my gosh. Right. It's almost like this, like, there might have been that moment where like, Ja car's, like, dude, I'm so sorry. That sucks. And then, oh, oh, oh, this isn't the centara that did this.

It's you that did this. God, Londo is the worst. He's his own worst enemy. Like, he

Brent: keeps, it's, he really is the worst. Yeah. Yeah. Londo, uh, just, yeah, he, I mean, not, not that he ever expected your car to go rooting around in his mind, you know, , but I mean, so, but did you, did you take note of all the flashes we got?

Some of them during this lot. So we saw the hand. Mm-hmm. reaching out of the thing. We saw the, the shadow ships flying over Sonari. We saw old lawn, we saw what I think we're calling to be Emperor Lando.

Jeff: Yeah, that's my, that's what I

Brent: saw, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, we saw a bunch of other scenes that I really are just shots from the first couple of seasons, like in real fast order, right?

Um, but Kar understood 'em all in those moments. Now obviously for time's sake, they couldn't go through each one of those and, and whatever, but we gotta talk about the vision though, Jeff, that vision, which was all important. He looks up and he sees his dad strung up. Now, did we know that Ja car's. Died like that.

I feel like we did. We

Jeff: got that in, in now for a word. When he shared, uh, that his dad, he spilled a cup of hot J on the house mistress that they served, and to punish him, I strung him upon a tree for three days and he died there. And his dying wish was that Kar would stand up and do what his dad did not have the courage to do.


Brent: Um, so we saw that. Now, I, I was a little confused because I, I ro everything with subtitles on. Same. I have, I have done this ever since I was a kid. I prefer subtitles. You catch stuff on subtitles that you miss otherwise. But that being said, subtitles aren't always correct. But what the subtitle said was when you had the guy who was up on the tree and then the dude who just appeared like standing right next to him when that transition happened, the subtitle said that that other guy.

Was Jaquan. Yes. Called him Jaquan. And I went, huh. And then later it was Jalon, which I think is their,

Jeff: God, I think I didn't re a bell for me, but the back. Because

Brent: Jaquan is the, Jaquan is the, the man, like the prophet. Yeah. Right. And he wrote the book and mm-hmm. . But he was just a dude back then. Or maybe he was more than that.

They said he, didn't he come from off Narn somewhere or something? No,

Jeff: I think that's, um, that's valent in the Minbar came Yeah. You about

Brent: that. Yeah. He was the minbar of not, not of Minbar or something like that. You're right. Mm-hmm. , you're right. But anyway. Oh no, he was like a farmer or something

Jeff: like, yeah.

Just, and it happened to chronicle the shadows down on the side of the continent. Yeah. So

Brent: you have Jaquan and, and here's Jaar. And he's telling Jaar, he's like, dude, you've gotta stop this. Right? Like the, the hate and the, and Ja Car's big defense was, , well, they started it. Mm-hmm. . And he, he tells Jaar, basically what I tell my 10 year old, it doesn't matter who started it, you can't keep it going.

Jeff: I love what he said too. It doesn't matter who started it, it only matters who is suffering. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah. Like, who's getting hurt by this? And how do we stop that? Who's the bigger person? Yeah. He

Brent: says, when, when everyone is dead, no one's gonna care who started it. Right. Um, but then he gets into this hole.

Uh, he, he says, and, and I, I would like to quote, um, the, the needs of the many outweigh the

Jeff: needs of the few. He does. I'm not gonna buzz you for that, cuz it's what he says. It's really

Brent: what he said. Right. , like the,

some, some must be sacrificed to save the rest. And I, and I mean I wanna make sure that I got it right because I think what I understood him to say was, you have to stop this war against the Sonari, cuz if you don't, it's going to kill all of Narn. All of Nan's gonna die because of this and you've gotta stop Now.

I'm not really sure exactly what they expect your car to do about it. Right? He's like, people are suffering and you've, you've got to this and is Jaar gonna have to sacrifice himself? Is that what he was trying to

Jeff: tell him? I think that's what Kar thinks like in the very end when he's in that prison cell and just looking full of resolve and religious fervor.

I think that's what he believes. But there was a line that Jaquan said just before that, where he said that we have to turn from the cycle of death, let us turn from that and help the others. And what I think is, if I think. Kar specifically, he's focused on the sonari. That is, that consumes his life right now.

Right. Jaquan is telling him, forget that. Forget it. Help the others. This goes back to what we talked about last week with him joining the War Council. Jaquan is basically saying, you know more about these shadows than anybody else. You need to help. Yeah, you need to help. But I, what I'm afraid of, my fear in it is that Ja Car's takeaway was I have to sacrifice myself to stop the war with the Centar.

and he's gonna head off in that direction.

Brent: Yeah, because I, that's kind of what I got out of it too, to be honest. But I think you're right. It makes way more sense if we're taking a much bigger look

Jeff: at Yeah. I think Jaquan wasn't just talking about the Nans, I think he was talking about life. The line he said too is we are not alone.

We rise and fall together. Which to me, that's, I was the appointed to, oh, this is, this is about more than the Narn or the Narn Sonari war. Yeah. This is about everything.

Brent: Well, because then Jaquan, who was his dad, and then turned into Jaquan and then turned into Jalan, which was Kosh. Totally. And we saw Kosh at the, at the end, and I, I, I said exactly while they were in the middle of that thing.

I mean, Jeff, you should have seen it, . I was, like I said, I say, dude, this is Kosh, who's like, come into the room while Kar is like mind melding with Lando. and Ksh was like laid a hand on him or something. And this is Ksh inside Ja Car's brain. So all of that was actually said by Ksh, not by Jaquan or Correct whatever.

Like that was Ksh being like, Hey dude, we gotta, we

Jeff: gotta fix fix. I think that line was the dad. So Ksh was the dad. He was Jaquan, he was jalon. It was literally Kar getting in that altered mind state and then this like sequence of, Hey, here's your dad. So kind of relax your defenses a little more and be open.

Here's Jaquan who you studied and you have trust, you know, and, and the, so here's the, the this, and then here's this mythical being of Gelan to just like the exclamation point on it all. Like it's this real, I think, um, very precise and planned out path that Kosh took him on. And it reminds me of when he spoke with, uh, Sheridan in the, what was it?

All alone in the night. When he was on the strip ship, the abduction ship. Yeah. He had to wait till Sheridan was in an altered state of mind and then had to kind of move him through this weird interaction with people that he knew before. He got down to the line. He said there and the line, he said, in this one of, I have always been here.


Brent: Right. I've always been here cause I've been here since episode one is effectively what he's saying.

But your point and he get seeing it. Oh yeah,

Jeff: go ahead. I say to your point though, he guess to the end gets in front of the ombuds. Yep. And I think, I think you and I saw the sentencing as different. So you said, oh, he 60 days in jail for this. He got a minimum sentence of 60 days. Yeah. No less than like, right.

They don't do a maximum sentence on Babel on five. They do a minimum maybe. You're gonna be there for two months and maybe a whole lot longer. But here's the thing, and I'm planting this flag right now. If the next time we see Ja car, he is not in a prison cell. Yeah. I will say some sternly worded things about this series.

they need to stick to this. He basically needs to be in prison. Uh, what is this season? This is episode six, so two months on this should take us to like, I don't know, episode 13 or 14. Mm-hmm. .

Brent: He should be in there for a while. Yeah. I mean, I don't know when they have their season break or whatever, but, uh, yeah.

Yeah. He should definitely be, it still felt like a very light sentence to me because you, you say no less than 60 days, but you never gave me the upper limit. Like

Jeff: maybe they don't have one. They don't have a sentence, man. What mandatory sentencing. Yeah. I thought it was great. Sheridan tried to stand up for him.

Dude, he was on drugs. He wasn't this and the Ombuds was awesome. Uh, no, he walked past all kinds of people. This was premeditated. And he went right for Mr.

Brent: Mallari, which the other side of that though is Lando has some predisposition to hating Malawi for everything that they've got going on this drug.

Heightens all of that and sent him after Malawi. Didn't necessarily like, like I, I get, I get what the Ombuds is saying and I still think Sheridan was right. Yeah.

Jeff: You know, see, maybe that's why he got a minimum of 60 days and not a minimum of 120,

Brent: 60 years. Honestly, he didn't play, he

Jeff: didn't kill anybody.

He was very, he was very gentle at the end. Listen, Jaar

Brent: considered Jaar better be glad that he is in sanctuary and. Subject to this, because here's the thing. Solando didn't die. Veer didn't die. But how many narn are gonna die in recompense for this beat down? Because this isn't going unpunished? Well, that's that's why I,

Jeff: sorry.

That's what I wonder though, to be honest, because that's what, that's the initial thought. Absolutely. Well, NANS are gonna suffer. They might even die. But the veer, the lawn that we saw at the end with veer was a very different lawn than what we've seen in a long time. He was a lot more, um, he cared about veer like his care show.

He desperately didn't want veer to be seen as a joke by anyone. He was just a softer londo. I wonder, this isn't a turn for him by any means, but I wonder if this is his moment where he is like, all right, jaar, you, you got me. You got me. Message. Gonna let that one fly. I am still gonna keep like, oppressing your people and looking to exterminate all of them.

But I'm not gonna call out that you assaulted me and did all this stuff. I, I could see it being being swept away.

Brent: Well, Jeff, unless you have anything else, I think we've come down where we've exhausted the majority of the material of this episode, so it is time to boil it all down and see if this show has any of what we call that star treky quality to it.

Is it a deep moral message? Does it hold up a mirror to society? Does it give us hope that we're gonna be better in the future? I almost feel like I should stop saying that one because I don't think that's gonna have anything to do with the rest of Babbel and five, I know , but that is a part of the deal.

Uh, at, at any rate, um, I'm actually gonna rate this one on a scale of zero to five deltas as far as how Star Trek we say this episode is. But Jeff, you're gonna get to do star furries and talk about how much we enjoyed this episode as far as how Babylon five this is. I'll go first with my Deltas. Um, I found a lot of Star Trek messages in this.

I don't know how many of 'em were central to the whole idea of the episode, but there was lots we could pull out. Um, the whole opening scene where freedom of expression is being squished. It was, and, and it all culminates in the one line of there is a big difference between the office of the president and the person who's currently occupying that office.

Now I'm looking at 1996 and I'm looking to see who was in office at that particular time. But there's also before, and there's also just kind of knowing this is the way it is always. Mm-hmm. like that, that phrase will always be true forever,

Jeff: right? ? Yeah. No matter who's there.

Brent: Um, uh, But still just the, that whole idea of like,

you can't just suppress people's opinions and the right to express themselves. I mean, you can, and you get the disgustingness of what we, what we had. Is that a big Star Trek message? I don't know, but certainly is not something you should do. Um, but it, it gave me this thought speaking out against stuff is not disloyalty and is not sedition, but is actually in fact the exact opposite.

It is maximum loyalty and maximum, uh, not sedition, but uh, patriotism. The, the speaking out because there's, what you're doing is you're saying, Hey, uh, I love my country, or I love this thing. That's not right. And that shouldn't be allowed to exist to be able to say. It's not, that's not disloyalty. That's, that's keeping things honest.

Uh, as a, as a sports podcaster, Jeff, one of the things that I fought in my very early days of sports podcasting was, oh, you're not real media. Because, you know, real media's not a fan of the team. You're clearly a fan. Like you say it all the time, you're a fan of the team. Real media's not a fan. You, when you're a fan, you can't give an honest opinion on how things are going.

And basically, I walked in and I said, bs. Actually being a fan gives me the most honest assessment of what's happening here, because I'm gonna call it out for exactly what it is. When my team is sucking, I'm gonna tell you that you suck because I want you to be. I'm gonna take it

Jeff: personally.

Brent: Yeah. And, and you know, and here's the, can I go in and be a professional and not act like a fan and not want the autographs and the pictures and, and, and actually, uh, and not just cry with emotion when I'm in there.

Yes, I can, because that's called being a professional. But that doesn't mean that I don't have to be a fan. And I, I find that particular line of, of, uh, uh, thinking utterly stupid. And to anyone out there who might be listening, who is a us in sports media, that line is stupid. And you know, people in your media room right now who are fans of the team that you cover, you know that they're there.

And it's probably you to be honest with you, whos Yeah. Is, um, so anyway, uh, speaking out is that, but I mean, how do you not boil this down to the whole thing that Kosh said? I mean, Kosh is God and Kosh is the conscience of the show, right? Like, so you get there, uh, again, The needs of the mini outweigh the needs of the few, which is exactly the theme of this whole thing.

We got to that end Koshko hyped up on drugs mind, altered state, and, and basically said, you're gonna have to sacrifice yourself or something in order to save everybody else. It does not matter who started it. All that matters is suffering. And Jeff, I think when you come down to those messages right there, but particularly that at the end with Kosh, I don't have to dive too far into that.

Just to go, that's a Star Trek message, man. That's right there. I could see this episode being in Star Trek on, um, just about any of the series. Just change a few characters, change a few ships, and boom, it's there. Uh, so I give this, uh, four and a half. Wow. Start, uh, four and a half Delta. I think it's four and a half Delta

Jeff: sh show.

Yeah. No, that's great. Um, I'm not gonna argue. It's a little more than I would give it, but I think it's, it's really good. I think the other piece too was a line you mentioned in the recap, and that was when Ivanovo was ready to sacrifice her career to blow up Ster. And Sheridan says to her, you have to fight them, but not become them.

Yeah. And that's that Star Trek message of like, you gotta, and, and, and it's, and it's echoed in, in Wan's message as well. You gotta be the bigger person. Right. It's not about who started it or whose fault it is. It's about making it better. Uhhuh, , you know, and, and, and by, by being true to you. For sure. I think for me on the star fury side, it's hard to take a Bester episode and not call it just straight at Babylon.

Five. Give it five star furies, wrap it up and go . I think to me, like he represents so much of what represents Babylon five. But yeah, as much as like, this was a great episode, I enjoyed it. It was. The thing we didn't talk about, but as important is this was a very well constructed episode. Hmm. The flow of it.

I feel like we thought this was gonna start out like at the beginning, I don't know, maybe 15, 20 minutes of this episode. I was like, okay, so we got some drug stuff going on and ster in here. Okay, cool. This is gonna be, I think you even said it in your prediction last week, it's not gonna be an impactful episode.

Like it's gonna be kind of a one-off with some stuff that might tie to other things. And I was kinda like, yeah, look, he's right about everything. on this one, hitting it. But then, but then it just very slowly morphed and became all about the story. Yeah. All about the continuity we've been at and every piece of it, like led to that.

It was just beautifully constructed. Mm-hmm. , I can't get over though just the. This show treated ster. I'm, I'm, I'm standing up for ster partly just because I know that it'll fire some people up and I enjoy doing that from time to time. But I also legitimately feel their response to him was way outta line and way turned up.

And, and, and if nothing else has compromised to them more than anything else, but you gave us one four and a half Deltas cuz it's got a very strong Star Trek message messages in it. Totally agree. I also think it delivers those messages in a very Babylon five way in a really enjoyable episode. And I'm gonna give this one, four star theories.


Brent: Jeff, uh, I, I don't disagree. I think I, I, yeah, it's, it's certainly right there. Uh, you know, like last season though, Jeff, we are creating, we are assembling. I just watched the last Avengers movie again with my son. We are assembling. The absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of season three of Babylon five.

Jeff, you get to place this one this week. Where are you gonna put dust to dust? Our current ranking, number one is passing through gas. Enemy number two is matters of honor. Number three is voices of authority. Four is day in the strife and five is convictions. You're gonna knock somebody out of the top five today, I imagine you could put it all the way at the bottom.

I don't know, Jeff, where are we

Jeff: putting dust to dust? Well, it's not going at number 22. This is not the long dark of the, of the third season. That's, uh, that's for sure. But it is tough and I, and, and I, and I'm, and I'm questioning a little bit, Where I want to put it, I'm matters of honor. It just matters of honor was such a great episode.

Mm-hmm. . But there was this part of me that keeps sane in the back of my head, like it was a season opener and it was kinda like the, you know, the next episode is wasn't really that good and I ultimately think it was. So where I land then is voices of authority a day in the strife. And I've said it quite a few times on this podcast that I am more into the stuff going on, on down, on earth, all the stuff there than I am with the shadows stuff or the other mm-hmm.

things going on. And so then it's, do I like this? Or a day in the strife better? And I think that the stuff that really worked in the day, in the strife and the strife was the londo and jaar stuff, which this took to an entirely new level. So ultimately, I am going to put this one as our new number four, uh, right above a day in the strife.

All right.

Brent: I can't argue cause I'm not allowed.

Jeff: Well, Brent, that's it for dust to Dust. You said at the beginning of the episode, one of the games that we like to play is guessing what? Next week is guessing what next week's episode's gonna be about based on the title alone. And next week we're watching Exogenesis, exogenesis and Brent.

No, no pressure here. But, uh, yeah, you, you are, you are nailing it now. We haven't seen anything about this. No thumbnails. No nothing. Exogenesis is the name of the next episode. Brent, what do you think it will be about?

Brent: What was the name of that planet that Spock body in the coffin drifted down to and got?

Rebirthed Genesis. Okay. I was thinking exo something, but it's Genesis. Okay. Okay. Yeah. The Genesis planet. Yeah. Um, exo, when you say Exo, that makes me think of Exos. Skeleton exoskeleton has to do with bugs. Genesis is being born. So this is about bugs being born. Oh, this, I got it, Jeff. I know what this is.

Okay. , this is the origin story of the shadows. Ooh. And their ships, and maybe at least their ships. You know, the little like, uh, spider looking things. This is the origin story of, of, uh, the shadows. That's where we're going. All right.

Jeff: Bugs. So Exogenesis, exogenesis is a real thing, and it's, uh, oh. Is it really?

It's like a scientific theory that, okay. . I was, I'm, I was just gonna see how far you went with the whole thing, . But it's a scientific theory that life originated somewhere other than Earth and then over time implanted itself essentially on earth. So Exogenesis Genesis, outside of the planet. Okay. Earth.

So I think I'm not too, I mean, you're thinking it's the history of Of the shadows, or at least they're shits and bugs. Yes. And bugs, of course. Yes. Which maybe are the same. Maybe. That's right. Same. Maybe all the bugs we see on earth now are like little seeds of shadows that will grow in the future. Whoa.

But I think this is gonna be a history of humanity specifically. I think that there's gonna be another first ones recruitment mission that they go off on and on that recruitment mission, they're going to, between the first ones they talk to and the lon, whether that's Kosh or through stories of the Lon, they're gonna start learning about some of those early interactions with Earth, where they were basically our God heroes or whatever in the early days.

We're gonna get some color color on that storyline,

and we're gonna find out right here next week what it's actually all about. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to follow or subscribe wherever you're listening to us. And if you haven't already, please drop by Apple Podcasts, good pods, pod Chaser, audible, any of those cool places, leave us a rating or review.

I cannot wait to read it here on the podcast. So, Brent, until next time. Hey Jeff. Yeah.

Clear the deck. Seriously, everybody clear the deck. Get outta the way. Activate the forward defense

Brent: grid. What are you doing? I was, I was just gonna say something

Jeff: else. I've been saying for weeks and weeks now that the Forward Defense Grid has been acting up. Jeff Belay that order, please. Okay. I don't know.

I dunno where my head was at. Nevermind. Peace, victory, and Long Life.