Eyes | For the Second Time

[0:00] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things that we didn't know about the first time around. And listen, I know you guys are worried. Don't worry. Jeff and I are still doing the thing where we search for those sci-fi messages in the series. We're trying to find the ones maybe we missed the first time around. We're asking questions like, what is this episode trying to tell us? And we're doing that. What's our litmus test, Jeff? A hope for a better future, a mirror to society, how to be better human beings to one another. And we know this show is chock full of all of those kinds of messages.

[1:18] That being said, the reason we know that is because we've already watched this for the first time. This is our second watch which means everything from this point forward to all of our listeners out there is full of spoilers can and will be jeff and i could talk about anything from any episode at any point in the entire canon of babylon 5 franchise extra biblical materials canonical materials i think is the proper phrase we talk about anything so if you've never seen this episode or the show before stop right now like i wouldn't necessarily usually tell people to stop listening to us but i'm gonna tell you stop right now go back and catch our first watch and do do that one with us and then catch up with us here when you come back for your second watch because you're going to want to do this one again absolutely hey brent hey jeff we have some stuff that i want to share what kind of stuff so you know this is a place where i really enjoy sharing the incredible reviews that come through on the various podcasting apps that people catch us on. But do you know where the real show is for this Babylon 5 for the second time? Well, we've always said it's on YouTube. It's on YouTube. Yeah. So I got a couple comments. I pulled off some recent videos we put out that I wanted to bring here to you. Hello, YouTube. Let's do it. So this one's from the By Any Means Necessary episode.

[2:42] Or BAM, as we have come to lovingly call it. I don't think I've ever heard you say that before, but okay. You came up with it. Absolutely, I didn't. I'm a genius. You are, right?

[2:52] It's B-A-M-N, by any means necessary. Bam it. Stuart Wald, 2395, said... What's up, Stu?

[3:00] Your impression of Zento is actually sounding a bit more like Jerry Seinfeld. What's the deal?

[3:08] What's the deal with that, huh? I read that, and I'm like, yeah, that's so great. Signs and Portents Unformed 8 had a couple great observations in their comment, but I want to share the one. So Morden is walking down the hangar bay in there, and it's cool on YouTube, right? You can like timestamp what you're, where you're talking about. And so this was at a certain point in the video and he writes down though, I walk through the hanger of the shadow of death. I will fear no evil for shadows are my friends. I thought that was creative. Very creative, but I don't want to be your friend if shadows are your friends. Right. Well, that's the thing with Morden. I don't think you want to be his friend. Right. I'm curious. I'm curious what people are going to comment on this episode. Brent, we're watching eyes.

[3:58] This week i will often in loving jest do some sort of an incredibly awful personation of somebody acting in a moment and usually it's their bad acting because i am also a bad actor i game recognizes game really is what it is some people have said that it just comes off as petty and mean and i just want to say it's not petty and mean it's me just having a good time that's really all it is and i mean it in all love that said i'm probably going to do the same thing in this episode today in fact i can guarantee you i will because this episode jeff contains something that i to this day still continue to quote and yes a very poor impersonation and i hope you laugh guys it's.

[4:45] Oh, this episode. It is hilarious. Do you remember what you thought of this episode the first time? I do. I do. Everything I remember in this episode can be summed up in one word. And that word is pain.

[4:59] This is the episode. This is the episode. Pain. Because that's what happens. I remember this being, Jeff, the very stereotypical first season 90s sci-fi type of an episode. It's a bad episode. It's not great. it's probably not as bad as we're going to make it out to be but it's still not great you know, especially not when you compare it to what we know is going to come later on which is a far cry from this type of an episode this episode is just full of all sorts of things there are some pieces of it that that are redeeming which make it worth watching but overall yeah my memory of this episode is not a great one it's mine's about the same um i just remember ari ben zane ari ben zane i just need to always talk like this and i'm not sure which accent i'm doing but i'm doing it very intensely uh-huh that's the episode that's the whole thing i i will say i think this is the first episode on our second watch i am truly not looking forward to watching really, But we'll see if it's different the second time around. You might be impressed. Exactly. You're going to be like, hey, there have been a handful of episodes that we've gone. That was actually way better than I thought it would be. It's a possibility.

[6:22] Jeff. Brent. Would you care to take a walk down memory lane with this one? I do enjoy this part of our show. Let's do it. Let's do it. Well, I did. I did go back and listen to our original episode. And I would like to quote you. In fact, we're going to reverse the roles because you did this and I followed up immediately. And I'm going to now do it back to you and you're going to immediately follow up with me this is how you recapped this whole episode. Okay. I thought this episode was Benzane in the membrane. Benzane in the brain. There it is right there. That was you. You did that. That is a Jeff thing to do. To take a song and turn it into something here? Yes. Hey Suzanne, where are you? Suzanne, super cut of Jeff singing. I think you probably already have one. there is one please if this isn't in that because just jeff just going off the rails on something, uh jeff you actually said that you despite all the negative of this episode you really loved the garibaldi lanier and ivanova stuff oh okay in this episode this is the episode where we get the motorcycle build i totally forgot about yeah that was that's this episode so you know we get lanier's first woohoo at the end of the episode i'm assuming that's a woohoo i don't really know But we also get a lot – we dive into Ivanova's past with her mom. Lanier doesn't know either. No, he doesn't. He certainly doesn't. Lanier – And that's okay. Is this appropriate to say? I'm not going to say it. Never mind. That's fair. Never mind.

[7:50] You loved that many episodes ago Garibaldi offered to give a drink for a drink for Ivanova, and you're like, they pick it up in this episode. Oh, nice. You love that they brought that back. Um, also you had big thoughts on this whole thing about the psych or remember you're given three choices, drugs, prison, or join the psych or, and you're like, they're nailing this home. This is going to be a big thing, a big thing. They're going to come back to this thing. It's going to be huge. And I was like, absolutely. It's going to be, you know, we did talk quite a bit about the idea that we've been told that no threads are ever dropped in the series, which is literally just quoting that.

[8:28] Oh, well, that reminds me. yeah paul just said that in the council chambers because and i was getting to that because we hammered that point in this episode the first time like no threads are ever dropped so we're pulling all of this stuff that we probably ought not of would have pulled had it not been for that statement that we heard from multiple people i said that this episode would have been a lot better if they'd recast ben zane with carrie elwis you know dread private roberts and and that fame as you wish and i yes yes um i actually really adored the story of the episode like the story just the execution was god awful but what they were trying to do the script was actually okay it was just not done in good hands uh we also and me specifically and i'm gonna own this okay this is the episode where we really started going in hard on michael o'hara as an actor now we know better than to do that this time around and it was wrong of us to do it then it would be wrong of us to do it now we're not going to go that route we understand what's going on so maybe even you know jeff you and i've had this conversation lately of when does that kind of stuff really start impacting and affecting and taking over and i think at this point we will have seen what we know now is going on behind the scenes is really coming to the forefront with i think this was making that as an assumption if this was not the it was one of the last episodes actually filmed was it on the series so that would make sense that he was okay well there you go there you.

[9:55] Go this was also the episode where i made a demand i.

[9:58] Wanted the spinoff of the sidekicks veer lanier and.

[10:01] Natoth that still needs to happen still needs to happen that's that's fanfic.

[10:05] Waiting to happen right there right um i also said that i really wanted a tatted up leather pants black bandana biker version of lanier that just like like as a t-shirt a picture a post or something that just says sexual prowess.

[10:21] On it. Right. I got to tell you though, I'm listening to us talk about this and I'm just sitting there thinking, man, if I was any kind of a visual artist, I would make this picture. I would make this poster and like, hang it up. Just Lanier, just biker Lanier and just sexual prowess over that. It'd be great. It'd be so good. Um, I was all aboard the ship of Garibaldi and Ivanova. Oh yeah. You were not. Um, I'm curious going into this episode, seeing how I feel about that now. Jeff, you know me, I'm not a person that likes to put everybody into a relationship. I just felt like these two had something where they could have played off each other. I'm curious what I'm going to think about that going in. I have no idea. Obviously they never get together and they shouldn't ever get together. But anyway, you also pontificated quite a bit current event, not intended there.

[11:07] Oh, wow. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I don't plan. I don't plan on doing that today yeah uh anyway but you you really went off on how ill prepared for this leadership role that sinclair was heading into this you had a big long stretch of the conversation we did ask jeff a question at what point could we consider ourselves to be veteran babylon 5 podcasters oh yeah the community answered that very pretty fast yeah which i think we have passed that spot we can if if you and i were to stop podcasting today we could confidently call ourselves a veteran Babylon 5 podcast. And anyone who pushes back, I'm like, we watched all the movies. We watched Crusade. Uh-huh. We did. We read some of the books. We read some of the books. We talked about some of the books. We did a whole episode on becoming Superman. We did the autobiographies that aren't even, I just recently completed Claudia Christian, her autobiography. Yeah. Yeah. You shared that one pretty awesome, interesting anecdote. Oh, there was more than that. But yes, I shared the one.

[12:01] We also wondered if Bester was going to be coming back, if he was going to be a thing. Because he gets mentioned, right? He gets mentioned a few times in this episode. I wonder if he's gonna be a thing buster i you know i try to listen to these episodes as what our audience was listening to us the first time hearing us say these things and i'm just sitting there going oh just you wait oh just you wait buster's coming back oh yeah and we also wondered if the knights remember knights one and two if they were connected to buster like his men or somehow somehow done like that so anyway that was our that's that's our first watch of this a kind of a capsulation of that jeff i listened to the episode you scoured jms's words regarding this episode did he have anything interesting concerning this episode of eyes yeah james had a little bit to say on this one some of it i want to save for during the episode itself i think it'll fit better but um one thing and i think we kind of picked up on this and especially did later on but he says uh that about the time we were delivering eyes somebody on one of the nets was going on and on about how B5 continuity stinks. Oh, but we never hear about Deathwalker again, or the Strike, or the Vorlons, or Ragesh III... And seeing what was at that moment on my TV, I wanted to reach through the computer monitor, roll up my forefinger, and plink that person right upside the nose.

[13:24] Unfortunately, he hasn't found a modem or a program yet that supports that feature. But one of the main purposes of this episode was to show that Sinclair gets some comeuppance. As stated, this was a thing I don't think we drew a comparison to at all, but apparently a lot of people did. There were people saying that this was a ripoff of Drumhead, the TNG episode Drumhead. No.

[13:48] No. No. Larry D'Italio wrote this episode, and he says that Larry never saw Drumhead. We generally make it a point not to watch what's done on Star Trek to avoid being influenced. Second, the basic ending, which you feel is strictly Star Trek's, can be seen in the Kane mutiny, a few good men, and all kinds of other stuff. Eyes was a direct consequence of all that preceded it in the first season it came about because larry suggested that with all sinclair is done sooner or later somebody's going to take notice on earth and there would be some kind of an investigation makes it sound like this is an episode that was not part of the original plan well that's kind of an interesting thing on the last point i have on on the things uh this episode uh would be kind of a cliff's notes guide to a season to season one hitting the high points for those who joined the series later than those who were here from the beginning you know what we call this jeff is a clip show without being a clip show that's what it is we said jeff we said in our first thing this was kind of like a clip show yep brings everybody up to speed i didn't i didn't know enough to be able to like think that that was a thing to bring up but yeah we actually said that first time high five us right see i've gotten this down i i it's to me it's always on this side now you know what you love everybody loves two high five and white guys like through the internet across the screen. That's right.

[15:11] So good. Well, Brent, that's what I got from JMS. I've got a couple more. I'll get during the episode. So what do you say we dive in and watch the episode? Let's do it. For those of you joining us for the first time. Hello, welcome here. We're excited that you're here. What's going to happen is if you are on YouTube, you're going to watch us watch the episode. It's going to be cut up reaction style. You'll see all of that. If you want to see the entire unedited version of us watching the episode and reacting to it, you can get that over at patreon.com slash Babylon five first, the number five, the word first, or click the link down in the notes below. And Hey, listen, if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app out there, you're going to hear that reaction. And then we're going to meet you on the other side where we're actually going to talk a little bit more about this episode and any new messages that we might've uncovered and any new feelings and thoughts we might've had towards the episode. So Jeff, let's do it. Let's put our eyes on this episode you're fired accessing file will shortly be returning here we know her light of the it's good callback which occurred during her last visit to babylon 5 ambassador to lynn would like a full security detail assigned to her good idea give me her itinerary and i'll arrange it.

[16:26] Excuse me. What sort of machine is this? What exactly does it do? This is where form over function has to really... It's a motorcycle. Like... You ride it. How do you look at that and not think ride? Right? It has wheels on it. And handlebars. And a seat. A vehicle. Oh, it's more than just a vehicle. This baby's a piece of Earth history. History? That is an interest of mine. Well, I've been building this little piece of history for the last five years, scrounging parts wherever I could. Game recognizes game, Jeff. Uh-huh. Totally. Just figure out where they all go. Given some time to study this manual, perhaps I could be of assistance. What do you think? Person there is. Watch the person there will be no trouble. I have a hard time believing this is just a year or so before he gets onto Star Trek because he does not look like the same.

[17:10] That's not your decision. That's not your decision. And you'll be included. Records don't always tell the whole story. That's one of the reasons you're here, Mr. Gray. Remember? Man, he's got that long hair, like, slipped back. As always, Mr. Gray. But the time is right. Mars Command has confirmed that the attack on Station Phobos is tied to a series of terrorist incidents directed against Earth Force. It beats the kick in the teeth. Dude, don't interrupt a fat man while he's in the movie, Antifa. Stop it. Do I know you? Aaron Franks, Portamaster Corporation. That's not his name. I love that station, and I'm trying to find out everything I can. I've got a burger. Well, I'm trying to eat my lunch. Quietly. Sorry to bother you. Not as sorry as you will be if you don't get up and move. That's not anybody in particular he's talking to. what do you think that green drink is he's drinking station us this is lou welch that's me through to mr caribaldi no last gasoline that's not mountain dew that looks like melted green jello, motorcycle was often seen as a symbol of independence of spirit freedom sexual prowess sexual prowess.

[18:17] It's a t-shirt man totally like of all those things oh can you imagine making up a poster mocking it up printing it up and sending it to to to bill mooney bill mooney yeah yes like he will probably receive that and be like oh my god this is great you know it is interesting nia points out we were talking over it but they talked about in 2035 was the end of the thing like literally within days of us watching this the first time the biden administration i think that i think it was an executive order they had said that yeah the federal government will no longer buy gasoline powered vehicles by the year 2035 you brought that up the first time around too oh did i really yep okay yeah you know we had a whole conversation about it yep qm corporation is an independent military supplier they could be looking for a contract well they could have the perfect cover for arms smugglers right the grange too is a stone's throw for mars colony have a talk with mr that's a big arm throwing a stone to mars thing we need is a corporate lawsuit i like though how like, it's not just military stuff. They bring in the whole, you know, these corporations play a big deal. Yes. I think it's safe to assume if things hold out the way they are right now, we will still be buying gas parking vehicles. I feel like the electric vehicle movement has taken a step.

[19:29] It's interesting he wasn't wearing his gloves right there. He wasn't in public, so he didn't need to, but the Psycorps books, like, that's just, they wear them. What's the other pin on his other lapel? Oh, in the suits, they often just wear pins on both lapels. Is that correct? Yes, we're hoping to get a military supply contract. There's the Cycor one, but where's the other one? I wonder what the other one is. You've been here for three days. Aaron, this is... Mr. Gattabaldi. Mr. Gattabaldi. Very good. You know me? Intimate. Wow, that's very conspicuous. I don't drink. Really? Good. You know me intimately. It's a vile habit when I'm used. Makes a soldier weak. Gets him in a lot of trouble. You're starting to irritate me, Mr. Franks, and I don't like being irritated. It gives me gas. The name isn't Frax. It's Colonel Ari Benz. Oh my God. It's Colonel. I'm gonna let you do all the making fun of in this episode. Maybe you get some of the flack. Of course you won't, Golden Child. Special investigation of Babylon Fire commands. Babylon Fire commands. I'm sorry, but between his delivery and then that music going out, that is the cheese factor. Recent events, Mars colony elsewhere have shown the need for increased scrutiny of all.

[20:44] And it's helpful to realize this was like the last episode that they made this season. It's going to be more pronounced right now. And under them, all staff must submit to telepathic scan as part of an official investigation. Command staff as well. The hell I will. What's so fascinating about that is if we bounce up into Crusade, when the dissolution of Psycor into just the newly skinned Psycor, because if you've read the Psycor trilogy, you know that even the telepath felt the same way. It wasn't a victory for them uh to to have that but every like that this was the thing they did they found any opportunity both within psychor and within earth force to just find reasons to force people to be scanned part of what has to happen and they were just they worked really hard to make it make it so this is a good example of that maybe running the rest of the world but i, i'm assigning him to my staff for the duration of this investigation what i like his style here brings up a good point that if they're doing a special investigation of all the bab 11-5 command stuff that should include garibaldi and therefore he should be prohibited from assisting ben zane, except ben zane knows him intimately intimately intimately yeah capital i intimately yeah that's.

[21:57] Garibaldi's responses that's concerning yeah what's what's interesting here this is our first so we got some you know dive into psych or in the mind war iron heart investor and all that kind of stuff this is where we're getting it from a different perspective though this is earth force talking about it and working to bring more stuff in but note avanova's response not knowing knowing what we know now she doesn't want to scan because she's a latent telepath and she doesn't want anybody to know because then she's going to get the three choices right prison the shot the sleepers or or psych or but at the time i don't remember what i was thinking like was maybe it was just that she was so offended she just didn't want to be well i think well i think a lot of this was we were we were very aware that um there's some guff between what we would now call normals and the psychics the psychor folk that this is just a riff on that um we did have that one i mean we talked about her mom once 16 episodes ago yeah i don't know that we've talked about her really since not much you know came up in the mind war just but i mean like like yeah i think i think yeah yeah no there's no problem and mr garibaldi second can handle it for a few loo can't handle it.

[23:11] If he's the second, but it's other dude. I'll present you with an interview schedule. Sure. Oh, I wonder. Because other dude who ends up shooting Garibaldi in the back. I don't know if this will ever pay off. I'm just going to tell my own story here. Okay. This is part of the whole plan here is to get Garibaldi out of the security thing to give that guy time to like rewrite routines, plant bugs. Like they're already preparing for the coup that's coming in a little bit. So they just needed to give him time. So they're all on the side of Clark and all those guys. Yep. Ready to go.

[23:45] Earth Force law. He's getting ready to pull a Sinclair. You're not happy about this investigation, are you? You mean where he goes and reads? Do I have the colonel's permission to speak freely? Well, then perhaps I could begin the work for you. Yeah, this is a... With Ambassador Delenn off station. My duties are small. It would be good to be of use. Okay.

[24:02] Okay, fine. I'll clear you for access to my quarters. But if you damage anything... I assure you, I will exercise extreme caution. it's like jumping into another man's half finished lego and finishing it out be like hey i finished it for you like well but i wanted to put the lego together right knowing what we know of lanier though and the patterns that he follows this is such a beginning for him hey here's a problem i'm not only going to interject myself into it i'm going to do it my way and differently and sure it might turn out okay or better like i'm thinking about in season five when he's training to be a ranger and he goes off on his own and does things and sure it turns out great but also you weren't supposed to do that thing you put yourself and others in danger for it so it's just i don't know it's kind of cool that already we're seeing that pattern in him but in a fun innocent way that's okay so stop so where else do we see him do that almost everywhere like he he very often takes a thing and just like does it his way or you know comes up or or or pushes back on a thing or i don't know he's just lanier believes he knows the way that things are supposed to be done and does them that way it's one of the things that delen spends the entire series trying to break him of yeah yeah yeah interesting interesting thought there jeff this is why the second watch is so much better i give you my word i'll respect your personal privacy the only thoughts i'll be looking for are those concerned with your duties in earth force she's about to throw something in his face.

[25:31] That's the first time she's looked at him since he walked in that room when that purpose includes scanning my mind to prove my loyalty it's not only invasion of my privacy but my honor yeah as for fear if you enter my mind for any reason i will twist your head off and use it for a chamber pot yes, Grind your bones into flutes for our children. Twist your head off and use it as a chamber pot. So good. Oh my God, so good. I know we talked about this a lot in our first time thing, but like he's legitimately trying to form a connection with her. But like you said, he's chewing those lines up. He got so intense. Like what I want to believe is he was like, hey, I'm going to reach out, try and connect a little bit. But then like her ignoring him, just like touch something off where he's just like, no, you know what? I actually have a great deal here. Like I turned out awesome and you're going to listen to me and acknowledge, he, he ended up going way too far because he just was passionate about who he is.

[26:28] I, and you know, I think he was being very sincere. Like I'm not going to go any further. This is going to happen and he's going to want this to happen. Also, he was assigned to making this happen. So what do we got to do? But I do feel like he was being very sincere. I do too. Like this is going to happen. It can hurt or not. It's your choice. Although that sounds much more like a shakedown than anything else. Listen for this in the context of what we know is happening right now with Clark and Santiago and all of that stuff. So happened in the past year from Ragesh three death walker, the Docker strike, Jason Ironheart to the sabotage attempt during the president's visit. He's questioning every major command decision you've made. Let him. Sabotage event during the president's visit. Yeah. Yeah, President came to deliver the new Survivors. This was Survivors. Oh, with Liana. That's why she was there. Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Because I was sitting here thinking, like, did we see that episode yet? We did. Yeah. Easy to forget. And they've all been approved. Now, that won't stop them. You know how eyes work. They're like judge and jury. They twist the facts to their own satisfaction and always assume you have something to hide.

[27:34] All right, Jeff, what is that? Is that haze, dry ice, or what else causes? Oh, it's just a fog machine. dry ice or is that done in by the oh it's real i think it's real mama okay so pause i want to watch this scene because i posited a theory okay when we did jms's autobiography that some of what susan ivanova is going through with her own mom is actually what he went through with his own mom to an amplified extent and i want to see if i just trying to remember what he said about her particularly with his dad and kind of how he treated her and where she got to. I'm trying to remember those details, and I'm not doing a very good job of it right now, I'll fully admit, but I want to see it in light of what we're seeing right here. Okay. Don't interfere, soldier. The colonel insists. Mama! Only one way out. She'll be fine. Now, do you hear the birds? Saw that coming. Only one way out.

[28:42] So what we don't know and this is from jms speaks one of the guys behind the masks is garibaldi's seconds the actor who plays the guy who ends up shooting him in the back um jms said that there's a reason why macaulay was used as tragedy in a dream that was mainly centered around psychor it's not really something anyone needs to see or even catch but after revelations it'll be clearer so that's when garibaldi comes out of his coma i think it's the second episode of season two but basically it was trying to show the way i kind of read that i mean so subtle no one could have possibly seen this but he was seeding they already know this is who it's going to be yeah stuff like that yeah and i think i appreciate that and i think now looking at it through um what i was saying earlier i think it shows how zane and everyone are involved in the clark conspiracy like because he's in this little vision and everything.

[29:39] I appreciate something like this so much more than i do uh hey we're gonna make dr bashear an augment out of nowhere just out of nowhere and it's or or uh general hammond actually knew about these guys from 1969 and he's just been biting his tongue and pretending not to this whole time like when you retcon something like that i don't when you know this and you're able to seed it and it makes this so much better yeah it's so subtle right like i cannot allow that and this is the only way to avoid it without putting you in a bad position forget it because she also is a latent telepathic she knows i'm within my rights i won't have the psych or probing me like some sort of a lab specimen and i won't have you ruin your career or leave babylon five you're too important besides i found a way to avoid the scans within the regulations i think sinclair missed his calling man he should have just been a lawyer totally may i borrow your ppg to shoot myself That won't be necessary. This time. I also checked Earth Force law and the opinion of the Senate Military Bureau as to the interpretation of them. They clearly state that telepathic scans are allowed only to determine the truth of specific charges brought in an internal investigation. They are not meant as a blanket for loyalty to them.

[30:44] You son of a man. Interpreting regulations for a senior officer could be considered insubordinate. Could also be considered my job. I am simply exercising command privilege to officially question a new regulation as outlined by Article 35 of the Earth Force Code. Very well, Commander. We'll play your game for the moment. Padman, you're dismissed. But this is my room, sir. Mr. Garibald, you will join me as an official witness to this. Okay let's have this conversation anyone else on this station besides sinclair and garibaldi has this kind of pushback on ben zane it is going to be unsuccessful right absolutely basically and this this is the real crappy part of this anyone who's not the white front and center male of the station yeah exactly if the aliens come at it nope you get nothing avanova comes at it he's gonna press and press and press until she's gone you know it take it like wild man it is right wild i mean ivanova could walk in with the exact same information right you know uh-huh 35 blah blah blah blah blah yeah he is going to grind her and yeah and be successful yeah sinclair walks in nope and in i mean and he tries to push back on sinclair and eventually it goes to all right we'll play it your way Sinclair. Although I think, you know, I think that a key difference there is Ivanova wouldn't take it. Like she would not allow herself to be ground down, but she would resign.

[32:13] Like she would step. That's what I mean. Yeah. Like that's her, that's her recourse here. Yeah. Now I say that let's also say Sinclair is also the commander of the station. He does have a bit more clout than anyone else out there as well. But that's where I point to Garibaldi. Garibaldi also made the same stance. So there's only two guys, man. Right. There's some, some nuance to it though like if you're the commander of the station even though a higher ranking officer comes on you're actually the senior officer because of your post right so like unless there's orders you know or whatever they come along garibaldi we learn as a chief warrant officer that means he was enlisted and worked his way up and became a cwo that's a big deal uh warrant officers get a tremendous amount of respect and so i think that they both in addition to bringing what they bring to the game also have a level of positional authority that even Colonel Ben Zane can't usurp.

[33:09] As an I, internal investigator, he's got some leeway, but ultimately Babylon 5 Sinclair outranks him. But that being said, I also say there is a very interesting demographical point here that is also being shown. Well, a good question though, Texas Anil Shock brings up in the council chambers chat, how would Lockley, how would this go for Lockley. I tend to think that she could Sinclair her way through this. I think she would, because I think that's how they, they would have written her when she was a commander here. But I also think in many ways, Sheridan would have like, come to back her up there. You know what I mean? Like you're, you're, it's still going to have that kind of a kind of a feel. The other thing about that too, Sheridan and Sinclair are both the respective leads of the show at the time. And that's what you do as a lead of a show, right? Yeah. You know, if it's, if Tracy Scoggins is the lead of her own little spinoff show, then yeah, sure. But she's also probably going to face a female interrogator, not necessarily a male interrogator is generally how they're going to write something like that.

[34:12] JMS would intentionally write it differently though and that's part of why i love jms totally so also uh as ben points out sheridan would have nuked him it's not getting old then it's not getting old it's still funny every single time as for psycor i doubt you really know any of us surrounded by aliens especially miss winters you're scanning me i'm sorry the thought of miss winters was very loud in your mind when i mentioned psycor i couldn't help it pick it up please hey uh-huh yep i am surprised you were that was a seed was it though yes i don't think so why put it in otherwise okay actually no i can say this i can say this from claudia christian's autobiography oh okay okay okay okay note from claudia christian's autobiography um one of the things she talks okay when does avonava's ex-boyfriend come on the station uh it was the uh home guard episode war prayer was it and she had like her her stoner guy or whatever oh oh uh that's that's talia's talia's ex stoner that's talia's ex and that's the second season okay so claudia christian had a thing where she told jms at some point she doesn't like avonava is not.

[35:22] Going to have some old love coming on the station all the time and she's not going to be a person who's like sleeping around with all these different alien folks or whatever but she's like if you're going to put him in a put her in a relationship i would much rather you put me in a relationship with an alien or with a girl she said that to jms and jms took that right and wrote that in for her and talia that's great that was like she's like i inadvertently turned ivanova into into a bisexual or lesbian yeah now if that conversation happened prior to this episode being written 100 then i I will agree with you that that's a seat. If not, then that's just, we have an established relationship here.

[36:05] And that is no more of a seed than Garibaldi and Ivanova being a seed. Okay. It's on that same level or otherwise. Yes. I'll give it to you as a seed that JMS is already been like. Okay, we're going to go there. This is basically, it could be basically, hey, so we have someone on the DVD cover who is a telepath and not involved in this episode about telepaths. So let's just remind you that she's here. Yes. Yeah. Her name's in the credits still.

[36:36] Also. Texas A&L Shock points out that JMS might have been actually planning to do it anyway, which is entirely possible. I'm just from claudia christian's perspective she said she was the one who might have inadvertently turned her own character gay so it's great there may have been other points to that other viewpoints to that whole thing but from hers that's that's where that comes of course she must have been and katarina says it really could just be because talia is the telepath that she interacts with the most so you are never to discuss my mother ever tell him tell him is that clear as of this moment I'm relieving you of your command pending a full inquiry before a military tribunal. What? You heard me.

[37:16] I'm assuming command of Babylon five. As of now, I'm in charge. I would feel like if he were to relieve him of command, it would actually go to Ivanova and not him. Yeah, I agree. What's your justification for this action? Beyond the fact that I'm working with direct authority of the joint chiefs. I also outrank you. As I'm bringing specific charges, the regulations on telepathic scan. Now apply. We will reconvene here in one hour to continue this doesn't he actually have to like file like what yeah what makes him what is bringing charges just because i say i am now mr sinclair will be confined to his quarters that's part of why he needs the hour before he does the thing is he's got to go file paperwork i'll have to go directly to hq see if your sources haven't covered anything i've been saying but first get to the dome vanover take it to the dome i'll expect reports from all Call your stations by 1,700. Sharp. Sharp. It's the email. It's the email that says, tell me what you did this week. It is.

[38:18] That's what that is. I've always been proud to be a member of Earth Force, but right now I'd sooner serve them in Bari. At least they've got a sense of honor. I'll tell you what, I'll meet you in the casino in 10 minutes. I've got to check something out. It's some interesting like. In the meantime, just stay cool, all right? Kind of unintentional foreshadow when Sheridan's like, I can't wear this uniform anymore. I used to be proud of being in Earth Force. I used to be proud of this, and with what it's become, I cannot be this anymore. Holy cow, that hits close to home to me right now. Yeah, man, in the Senate. Remember Bester saying he'd see you again after what happened with Ironheart? I don't like smell a con job here. I'd bet on it. Bester said I hadn't heard the last of him after his partner was killed on Babylon 5. Maybe the colonel is his way of getting revenge. What can I do about it? Jeff, I am 100% with you right now. This is all connected.

[39:05] Clark, the shadows, side core Ben Zane. Yep. This is, you know, what is eventually going to become night watch and how night watching, I mean, what, what Ben Zane just said, I'm going to talk about this a little bit more later. What Ben Zane just did is fascism. I don't agree. It's the, it's the fascist way. Yeah. It's also, Hey, all of these things that you have protections for, I don't care. I'm going to find a way to get around it. And I'm just, and you're going to be this just because I say you are, I'm going to now bring charges just because I say I'm charges. You are now doing this because I say you are without due process, without day in court, without any of these things to go through those processes. You just are because I say you are. This is fascism. This is how it works. This is what it looks like. We're seeing it here in this microcosm where we will see it explode. Right. Come season two, season three with night watch with Mr. Wells, when he comes on board with all of those folks, right? Voices of authority and all the chicky exactly yeah but chicky so yeah we're seeing it here this is all connected to that and i'm see that more clearly now than i ever saw it before great call great pickup big problem ivanova that's the second time he's been ivanova can't leave her unsupervised oh he's doing season two credits.

[40:27] Look at her ivanova's gonna fight the whole everybody bar everybody See, this is why the casino set is no longer, Jeff. Ivanova destroyed it at the end of season one. I want to live to see the future. Okay, I surrender. Oxi pills, help you pull yourself together. Oxi, wow. Command has my shot. Clean up this trash. Well, we hear about these one or two more times. We don't hear about those a whole lot often. Right. Commander, Mr. Gray, I thought I'd find you here. Jeff, Ben brings this up, you know, and this is specifically, i'm pointing this at you sir who was such a defensive bester at some point you're seeing now why one of the major things we were pointing out about what why bester is bad he is in on santiago's assassination bester is in on the assassination jeff and garibaldi getting shot in the back he's a part of that so yeah while we may not see him for a while he's got his fingers and all the bad stuff going on i never said he wasn't a bad guy i said all the bad stuff he did the crew on Babylon 5 didn't actually see, and so they are treating him in a way that's not fair. They're treating him based on what we have seen and know of him. Keep defending it, Jeff. Go ahead, man. Until I'm proven otherwise, right?

[41:45] In Mind War, yeah, there was some not great stuff. Not enough to treat him the way Zack does in the future, but there was stuff, and I admitted that. All right, fair enough. He is clearly a bad guy.

[42:00] I'm telling the books he kind of becomes not one. Hey, we get a second Talia Winters reference here. You're very good at it. That's probably why Mr. Bester assigned you to this job. You must be mistaken. I don't know him, at least not personally. Odd. He and the Colonel are very good friends. Maybe you're scanning the wrong people. Mm, I like that. And Harriman heard him. He's like, Harriman, take your place. Sinclair, take your place. He just plants a little seed of doubt. Uh-huh. That's Inception-level stuff right there, Jeff. Right, it really is.

[42:29] Whatever criticisms we have of Sinclair in this episode, not Michael Hare, Sinclair in this episode, that's a master move right there yeah that's really good what's interesting in uh the psych or trilogy the second two books are really about bester and he's very he's held in very high regard within psych or people also know he's a piece of work right so like it's a thing where like gray at this point in his career gray would be like yeah that's a guy like he's a big shot guy is one of the best psych cops that are out there we're trained on his stuff in the in the academy and whatever also he's kind of not such a great guy you know who that actually sounds like you're talking about to me hulk hogan like that's the way people talk about hulk hogan in the wrestling world like dude he's kind of a big deal also kind of a piece of shit yeah don't ever anything with that guy like like i have all the respect for everything he does we're also not hanging out So I think is an exact phrase by a wrestler today. Send in Lieutenant Commander. Should recorders also not be on Ben Zane? You'd think, but that's not, that don't.

[43:36] Back then. He's the police. This interview will cite specific charges against Mr. Sinclair, and he and his staff will submit a telepathic scan to determine the... How is this a trial? We've officially brought charges, and now we're in an... And what we've heard from Zane is he's going to put him in front of a military tribunal. Tribunal means three people. And what Article 35 or 38 or whatever said that Sinclair brought up, five senior officers. We're still sitting here with zane absolutely insane if this is still a fact-finding mission.

[44:11] I won't be scanning you deeply but only verifying your responses to specific questions like here's the thing if this is just a fact-finding mission and you're having this interview for the sake of the fact-finding mission fine but he's talking about determining the validity of charges yeah like that's trial is what you're doing if i were to ask you why you turned a routine investigation into a personal hunt for my scalp. You flatter yourself, Sinclair. Do I? It must have stuck in your craw when you were passed over for command of Babylon 5. Right, Ed. Passed over for a hotshot without any real leadership ability. Sinclair, I'm warning you. There was nothing you could do, of course, until your friend Bester thought of a way to get even for you and for himself. You're insane. Maybe I am. Maybe it's crazy to think that Earth Force still respects honor, freedom, and human dignity when a maggot like you can spit on some of the best officers I've ever served with. All for the sake of your own ambition. Bye. God, man, I'll have you before an execution squad for this. Yeah, they'll kill me for this. I face death on the line. I deserved it. But thanks to those damn Mimbari, you got it. Michael Harris trying to hold a face there that he's really struggling with. Which you won't be doing there pretty much longer. I'm commander of Babylon 5 now. And all your lies.

[45:25] It's you who's lying here we go now okay for the people who said that this is a ripoff of drumhead that a thousand percent sounded like what lady uh-huh the judge like the way she sounded at the end of that episode i'll tell you my daddy this and that and the other and like as people just one by one walked out of the room leaving her there to continue to rant just spout this off that's exactly what that sounded like there yeah it had that vibe it had that feel but just like just like he said in here uh so did the cane mutiny a few good men like there's so many other things that had exactly wasn't the drum head i mean isn't that known to be as as a story i mean star trek often often did their take on xyz story exactly did their take on moby dick they did their take on whatever was drumhead not their take on citizen kane or one of these i think drumhead was known to be one of those takes on another story yeah the kane mutiny probably i could see that for sure but i i want to point out right here this this scene frozen from the moment this whole episode really almost the entire story of this episode has been told on harriman gray's face Okay, talk about that.

[46:48] We saw him get fired up when he was talking to Ivanova, like just get really passionate and fired up. We saw the moment that, you know, Sinclair was like, are you scanning the right people? He's like, huh.

[47:00] Hmm maybe and then they had a scene of him while zane was going off and he's like he has this thing down he's just like this just isn't right like his journey as being the military specialist or whatever coming with zane to what he's about to do jeffrey combs is portrayed brilliantly with just his face so i for while you were talking i did just look it up to to see at least according to memory alpha good lord i'm bringing all this into a babylon five show yeah there you go uh drumhead was written um hold on where was it jerry taylor wrote the script based on a story idea from ronald d moore who had proposed it um showing the witch hunts along the lines of the u.s senator joseph mccarthy's communist hearings the salem witch trials and stuff like that showing that kind of stuff can still happen no matter how far you are now the mccarthy trials are not that far removed from our own history right now no 75 years ago right ish yeah 70 75 years ago you know salem woods trials a little further removed but it happened then it can still happen now.

[48:10] And and in the future and yeah yeah in my mind whoa no wait for it here it comes yep here it comes it's over it's over for you sinclair you and these misfits you call soldiers i got one of those people go ahead thank you to wash you can't get all of us famous last words from a trio of mutineers colonel pain.

[48:38] So james you heard it you heard it he went he did it james had some words on this okay so gray reached into ben zane's head and, for lack of a better term, pushed his pain button the same way you can stimulate someone's memory or physical sensations with an electrode or chemicals. It was only a second and he would have shrugged it off quickly had Sinclair not been there to follow up. It's just a... But I love that he said it. But you know what he didn't do, though? It's kind of disappointing. Pain! He just said pain. Pain! Here we go. Colonel, pain!

[49:24] That was the moment I was all in on Babylon 5. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that punch cold knocked him out. He might have hit his head on the way down and that did it, but that punch was not what knocked him out. Painted it and everything. Behold. Behold. The ninja, Zian. The ninja see he just be all that what have you done you are not pleased i said you could work on it a little not finish it i do not understand i wanted to build it myself it was kind of a purpose in my life now gotta yeah benzane benzane in the membrane benzane in the pain.

[50:04] Well done ben love it i love it oh it's done i have made a grievous error please forgive no he he asked for forgiveness that's how you do it you did a beautiful job look what happened okay time for a brent rant i feel like this should this should get some you're entering the quote of brent allen he did it perfectly you're right please i didn't do this please forgive me and what happened garibaldi was immediately disarmed and they got to a place where they could be friends again there is power in the words is what i've been telling you guys for how many years now they seated the very long night of londo malari right here in eyes listen i'm telling you it is listen you may not be ready to ask those words you may not be ready to hear those words there is power in the words it is not a manipulation technique and i if you're using it as manipulation then you're wrong for doing that and you should apologize and ask for forgiveness for that because that's not what it's meant to do i believe lanier was very true when he just said oh no i just screwed up i didn't even realize that please forgive me immediately got him right back to where they needed to be power in the words man power in the words give me a hand with this huh i wonder if lanier's gonna wear a helmet would he need one i'd be grateful to a member of psychor mr bester is not the type to come too far out of the shadow there are bound to be some questions raised Oh! Mm-hmm.

[51:29] Wow. Those? Oh, that's what they were looking for.

[51:34] There is no woo-hoo. Please say woo-hoo. There it is! Yes, it is! Yes, Mitch! Yes! Yes! Yes! That recolors him looking at Sinclair or Sheridan going, woo-hoo.

[51:54] It was totally Lanier doing it, too. Because you heard Garibaldi before go, wow! Woo-hoo! You heard it.

[52:04] So great also neither of them were wearing helmets well you didn't have gas in there you didn't have to worry about a helmet oh yeah it's gas that yeah has to do with it's gassed up all right brent we just watched eyes for the second time what do you got jeff um this is an episode while i still feel was had its issues with its execution this is an episode that is so prescient and reflects so much more of history, modern history unfolding before our eyes, not just in one country, but in multiple countries around the world. Okay. I just want to be very clear. While I am certainly very close to being connected to some of this right now, this is not the only place we're seeing this unfold. Okay. This is an episode that, that has, I really wish that it was treated better. The script, I, I will repeat what we said the first time. I love the story for this. It is a, it is a well done script. And unfortunately, I just, I continue to feel we were in the hands of with better actors. Okay. With listen, Michael O'Hara is at the presumably at the peak of his illness right now. Okay. And it affected everything that's going on here. We just have to call it out for what it is. All right.

[53:25] Whatever's going on with this guy who's playing Ben Zane. Just, I mean, you had two guys in the worst possible shape. They could possibly be bouncing off each other. you put this into the hands of some better actors and listen maybe the hands of a better director i don't i don't know i i it's so hard for me to say how much of this is acting versus directing and you know sometimes you take what you can get as as a director not a film but of stage i can tell you sometimes it's just listen that's the best the actor is going to give me and that's what i got you know i can't get more out of them because of reasons so yeah i just but i have a lot more respect for this episode now after this watch.

[54:06] I think the thing that really impresses me the most about it though, is how this episode is so intricately wrapped into the rest of the story of Babylon five. Yes, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like there are things in this episode that if you don't know what's happening and what's coming, this passes right over you. Like it did for you and me the first time. Exactly. Knowing what we know now and Jeff, I'm glad to be able to have you. I'm glad for our council chambers who are joining us live, who are commenting, being able to be like, Hey, here's this. And here's this and see how this wraps into this and going, Oh my God, it's all right here. Yeah. Oh my word. And this wasn't a JMS written episode. Pretty incredible. I think what this episode does so well, you know, we watched this the first time we called it a clip show without being a clip show, which Babylon five does better than pretty much any series that we've watched. It's amazing what they're able to do, but this did both. this was a clip show hey here's the first bit of season one welcome people that are here now and it is foreshadowing of what's to come like it, You brilliantly bridged both things, but you only know that on a second time viewing. Wholeheartedly agree.

[55:16] Question from our council chamber. Well, I'm going to rephrase this into a question from our council chambers. Council chambers members, subscribers to our Patreon get to join us for our recordings.

[55:26] Trey says, I'm going to rephrase it into a question. Do you feel that the acting here was worse or Byron's evil followers in season five? Which was more cringe? the overacting and cringe um i think the worst acting was here byron was more cringe very much still more cringe yeah um but i think the overacting the bad acting was here for sure yeah in my opinion i agree i you know there's still a piece of me jeff there oh this could just be brent hoping that everything that we saw with byron was done so intentionally that it was supposed to be like that it was supposed to make you feel like that and because of that that means that the way they filmed it the way they shot it the way he acted it that's how it was supposed to be because that's how it was supposed to make you feel in which case it's brilliant i love your optimism it's so cute and if that's right that that's amazing but if not then not so much and it might be the part i'm dreading more than anything else about this rewatch but when uh We watched this the first time. We each gave it four deltas for messages. Did you pick up anything on this one that you don't think you picked up the first time around?

[56:42] So when I re-listened to our original episode, I did not listen to the messages portion. A little bit. And I didn't necessarily want that to taint. Like if I listen to the messages and go, well, yeah, those are the messages I found. And now I can't find anything new. I didn't want it to do that.

[56:58] You know, like I found that happening to me the last couple of times I've listened to it. I intentionally stopped it, which is also why I missed the part that comes after that from earlier. For those of you that were around for that part. That's why that happened.

[57:09] But here's the thing. The biggest line that rings over everything else. We have mirrors held up to society, right? Yeah. Here's the line that does it over the entire thing. Earth Alliance may have its problems, but they can't be solved by trampling on human dignity. Same thing I wrote down. Okay. Let me tell you what this does not say. United States of America may have its problems, but they can't be solved by trampling on. Here's what it doesn't say.

[57:38] Citizens dignity. Okay. Mm hmm. No, human, human dignity. There is a raging debate right now, and it's probably even within our fandom, and we're going to hear comments on it. And I welcome every single one of them. And you want to send an email and have this conversation. Let's have a conversation, not just yelling and trying to get your point across and bash people. No, no, let's have this actual conversation. You and I have microphones right now, Jeff. So this will be a one-sided on this part of it. That's the way it's going to feel, but that's the nature of it. Here's the deal. There are things that are happening right now. And the debate is raging among social media online about whether or not people who are or are not citizens deserve certain rights that are afforded by our constitution here in this country. A constitution, by the way, which I will point out has been a lighthouse and something that has been mimicked as republic democracies have spread across the globe over the last 250 years and i also should say it's not just because it started with our original constitution because we picked up a lot of our stuff from our native american friends yeah okay that they actually had this stuff going on long before we got here.

[58:47] You know and by we i mean the european right yeah you know uh but we took that and made that a part of our thing and that has now been disseminated throughout a lot of the world not all but a lot of the world um certain rights like due process the ability to have your day in court ability to have free speech and free thought and not have your loyalty tested right uh all of these things well oh but you don't deserve that if you're a criminal you don't deserve that if you're not a citizen you don't deserve that uh human dignity is a thing and that crosses citizenry citizenry boundaries i think that's the magic of sci-fi.

[59:28] We can say human dignity on Babylon 5 while in the back of our mind having Londo, Chakar, Glenn, Lanier on there where it's like, yeah, humans this. And also we're working with an earth that is united-ish under an earth alliance. Not every part of earth is part of the earth alliance. There are consortiums in other countries that aren't.

[59:55] And so it can tell that story. I think what is challenging, and I'm not giving weight to either, to anything here, I'm just kind of presenting the other piece of, if you take it down to the microcosm, then a human is what? Well, you know what? I'm going to talk myself out of it right away because there's humans on Mars, right? And Mars aren't part of Earth Alliance and stuff. But I think regardless, regardless of the dignity, not the dignity, but whose dignity question, you and I have had this conversation. I will never celebrate the death of a human being. I will never celebrate the degradation of any human being because you are a human and you draw breath. You were created through whatever belief system you have. You are biologically created and you are a human that exists. You are afforded dignity. Yep. Now, what you do with that dignity is up to you. but I don't get to like, I don't know. You, we treat everyone with dignity. I'll tell you what, what happened. I'm, I'm a, I'm not a cool dude. I'm out doing bad things, taking stuff away from people, hurting people. Like that's what I'm doing. If you call me a jerk and stand up to me and yell and throw stuff at me all the time, you know what I'm going to do?

[1:01:16] More bad stuff. You treat me with some dignity, have a conversation with me, whatever. If, if I'm open to it, right? It's a two-way thing, but I'm a whole lot more, whole lot more likely to hear you and potentially change my mind and behavior if you come at me with a shred of dignity with you. And that's why I will never celebrate degradation or harm or death to another human. I might be glad someone's not around anymore, right? But I'm not going to celebrate the death. We all have dignity. And I wrote that exact same line down because we have a history, a recorded history of almost 10,000 years globally, more than that. Of trying to solve problems by trampling on human dignity. And how's that been working out? Not so good. Not so good. Yeah.

[1:02:06] And you know what? That being said, to afford everyone dignity. Again, I will invite you, if you want to have the conversation, email us to Babylon5first at gmail.com. That's the number five in the word first. And that's our actual email address. That's not a fake one that I throw out there all the time. Email us. We would love to. We will have that conversation, a dignified conversation where we give you a chance to voice your thoughts. I'm not offering this, but I'm just giving it as an example. I've gotten onto Zoom calls with people who, like we were emailing back and forth, and it was very important that they wanted to be heard. I wanted to hear what they said. I got a Zoom call with them. I'm not going to argue. I'm going to listen to what you have to say. You know why? You're human. You have dignity. I'm going to treat you with that, regardless if we have different opinions or not. In fact, I welcome your different opinions. I'm curious why you have them, you know, like I'm going to approach it with curiosity. You might be completely wrong, right? But I'm going to be curious about your opinion. I'm going to let you give voice to that thing. Like, and Brent, you've had conversations with people as well. Like we're very, I just, I want to reiterate what you said just to stem the floodgate. You are not offering to do that for everyone out there. Correct. In fact, I'm not offering to do it at all. I'm just as an example of we are open to the discussion.

[1:03:25] Um so yeah we give this four deltas i can absolutely see that yeah i and i think it is it is just as prescient and um here's the thing jeff we cannot do a show like this that tackles the topics that this particular show tackles without these without having these conversations we cannot avoid them and we will not avoid them um you and i have a different a definite viewpoint our viewpoint is not exactly in lockstep with each other and exactly the same and that's okay um, as it is not with all of our viewers. Right. So, you know, again, we can have that conversation and we welcome that conversation in a dignified manner. Um, but enough to say the scene specifically where Ben Zane just declares, he's now bringing charges and that he can now do whatever he wants and he can now dispose Sinclair from his job.

[1:04:16] Um, this is the kind of stuff that our forefathers here in this country in a way fought to get away from and provided provisions within our own constitution and bill of rights uh to prevent that from happening and it is something that we see being stepped on oh hey this isn't the person we're supposed to get take them anyway oh this person is a bad guy because they were part of this why well because that person said so uh yeah it's dangerous it's a dangerous ground we're on, and uh it's scary it should be scary anyway this is what it is agreed sci-fi is meant to bring these things out it is it's why we're here yeah and the fact that we were telling these stories back in the freaking 1990s and we're now seeing it again here is so sad to me well you know it is but also a long ways into this thing but i'll bring it up anyway right like the minbari believe that we are all essentially manifestations of the universe right we're all connected to the greater universe i believe that history tends to repeat itself partly because we're collectively stupid.

[1:05:17] But also because the universe is trying to figure stuff out. And it did a thing and then like it manifested other people and it's trying that thing again. And maybe it'll be different this time, you know, or whatever. And, uh, and, and I'm good with, you know, I mean, I'm not good with that, but like, I, that's part of what I'm good with that. Like way of thinking. We're just trying to figure it out. And eventually, eventually the universe will figure it out. I hope that's just not going to be, not going to be today. It's just not today. Today is not that day. No.

[1:05:48] So yeah, Jeff, um, a lot of respect for this episode. Still not great i don't want to go watch this one again because honestly i don't i don't like having to think about this whole lot a whole lot i that's the other thing is i watch sci-fi i watch stories like this to get away from this sort of stuff a little bit but sometimes it throws us back up in our face and we have to grapple with it so here we are jeff did you have any other any other things to bring up nope well with that then you know what that means i do know what it means it is time to bring out our 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of babylon 5 season one jeff our current top five signs importance at number one two is death walker three the war prayer four sky full of stars and five is believers jeff you get to place this one this week my friend where are you placing eyes so i uh try to avoid recency bias i know exactly where i'm putting it already we've had a long time to consider since the episode ended i just want to show that in our definitive season one ranking that we completed at the end of our first time um number 23 was soul hunter 22 is infection and 21 was eyes that's where we had it i uh we soul hunter and infection are already um well above yeah those spots for us same thing's gonna happen for this episode brent you nailed it it was the execution of this that didn't work we just watched a stargate episode um where we got done with it and i was like i don't know man it just didn't really hit it for me, but the construction, the work.

[1:07:16] The writing, the direct, the, every passing.

[1:07:18] Every bit of it, every piece of the production. Yeah.

[1:07:22] Amazing. And as a result, it got ranked. High. And that's where this is going to land as well. Now I'll say it's not going to get ranked high. It's going to get ranked higher, uh, than I, than I would have thought. And there might be some controversy around it because we've looked at some of these episodes differently, um, in watching them. But Brent, this is, I'm almost a little nervous to say it. This is going to be the new number 11, uh, right below midnight on the firing line and right above mind war and almost entirely based on its ability to not only wrap up everything that has happened but to literally chart the course for the entire earth four storyline that is to fall good night does it i mean you talk about foreshadowing yeah and just here it is like geez like holy cow man yeah un unbelievably brilliant absolutely brilliant very good, Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for eyes. We can move on. Thank God. We have a brand new episode. Well, not brand new. We got another episode on deck for next week. Legacies, Jeff. Legacies. I want you to think back. Do you remember what your prediction was for legacies the first time around?

[1:08:37] I'm just laughing because it was, I mean, God, we were so far off on some of these things. So I thought that a great leader from the Narn or the Centauri will have to do something dirty to secure their legacy. Yeah. But ultimately, to do that, either Londo or Jakar, Jakar or Londo, will have to completely compromise the other one. This was going to be a Londo-Jakar episode just kind of furthering their rift. Do you remember your prediction? I do. I do.

[1:09:08] Um i said that this one was going to be about sinclair and the minbari and we're really going to find out what's going on with his brain the hole in his mind right um and we were going to find out that really sinclair was really important to oh i'm sorry jeff i have pulled the clip okay i want you to listen i'm not going to say it i'm going to let the recording speak for itself here we go it's not just what they did to him but maybe there's something about sinclair himself that is really important to the mimbari and oh sinclair is part mimbari that's it whoa that's it right there and it's a legacy that was it this was the episode ellis and you you take your laurels you take your crown sir for for getting sinclair is valen i couldn't get there without that though you you paved the road you're welcome my liege because we sir are a team high five there you go.

[1:10:09] If you're listening to this on audio and you missed what happened on video that jeff and i just didn't watch the video no consider yourself lucky that was embarrassing just in every way that was awful.

[1:10:19] But man next week you get to we're going to experience this almost exactly what you just said we're going to meet naroon like there's going to be so this is the naroon episode it is oh okay cool commander sinclair you speak like a minbari why because you are a minbari right right yes literally wrote the book on how minbari treat each other i was gonna say you literally.

[1:10:43] Brought minbari culture to the minbari yes makes you wonder like when we watch war without end those those like two or three minbari that like popped up and saw him with the the vorlons like flanking him on either side um by like what what were they then like if sinclair brought what we know as minbari to the minbari culture what were they then yeah we'll have a lot to talk about next week i'm super excited we're gonna do it right here thanks for being with us here today please be with us here next time because it's going to be a super exciting conversation if you haven't already, please subscribe, um, like all the things that you do five stars, say some stuff. We'd love to share those things here on the show. It's awesome. The one thing that you can absolutely do though, that means the world to us is to share this show. There is a massive Babylon five community out there in the world of which we have some of the most shining examples of right here watching us now. Let's bring more of them in here to be a part of our incredible community so we're going to watch legacies next week i can't wait until then hey jeff yes brent what's up.

[1:11:51] I mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something, you okay they're big men that one didn't that one didn't go smoothly as the one the other time i don't know what it was i'm wearing different pants.