Sept. 5, 2022


You have chosen...wisely.

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Oh! What a episode about the Holy Grail. Or is it? Jeff and Brent consider that the Grail we seek is the Grail we might already have...

Babylon 5 For the Fist Time podcast logo with the Patreon logo on top of it


Jeff: welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time. 

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babybel on five for the first time. Jeff and I are two veteran star Trek, podcasters watching Babybel on five. You guessed it for the first time.

And while doing this, we're gonna take those skills that we've learned from overanalyzing 850 plus hours of star Trek and overanalyze this whole episode or show whatever this is, series watching it for the very first time. 

Jeff: And while this is not a star Trek podcast. We gotta remember that, cuz we're gonna go there.

We're gonna make those references. And so to help police ourselves, we have a fun game. One of many that we like to play, we each get three references no more. During this episode up until the point that we actually kind of compare the episode to star Trek in a, in a way we get three references. If we make one, you'll hear this.

And once we've used those three, no MOS, 

Brent: Jeff, you know what I think we need to do? What's that? So for the folks out there, listening on the podcast feed, you guys are awesome. We love you. We are recording this for you, but Jeff there's a whole other group of people out there. Mm-hmm those are our folks on YouTube, YouTube, and uh, you know, I, so when we are doing this live on YouTube, you press a little button and their plays are intro music.

But while that's playing you and I are just sort of like sitting around taking drinks and looking at each other and, you know, we have a lot of talking to get ready from. We do, we do, but I'm just thinking like for our YouTube viewers, maybe we should put together like an actual, like, Ooh, opening video package.

Like you push the button in, it just comes up. It plays that. And you know, it's just more entertaining for them to watch. Yeah. And for those people who want to get through the first 10 minutes of you and I just blabbering on about nothing having to do with Babylon five. Okay. Usually it's less than five, but today we went a little long.

Um, people can like, just skip to that part if they want to, you know, get to where they, where they're, I'm just saying it might be more fun. And for those of you out there listening on the podcast feed who are like, huh, maybe I should go check out the YouTube channel. You should just go to YouTube and search for Babylon five for the first time.

Um, and you know what happens over there? People talk to us at YouTube a lot, a lot, and we get lots of fun comments over there and we get to talk back, which is super cool. Jeff, this is what we call a, a served up transition in the . 

Jeff: That's that's a little segue. We need game this segment, I think, but yeah, over on YouTube, we have comments and discussions going on and recently Henrie, Harran sorry if I mispronounced that on YouTube says I love this.

And I think this was in regards to the war prayer episode. Okay. Says boy, oh boy, do YouTube bring this episode to life or what? Yes. Even with things we might think a bit differently of or where your speculation is naturally off your enthusiasm shows and you bring such good points to the table. I am definitely one of those people who watch your YouTube videos from start to finish.

Thank you for that. You clearly are already well on the path of becoming two of us, two of us. And I very much think doing this with a friend is much more fun than going alone because together you can ponder and speculate to your heart's content without fear of spoilers. As you've already discovered, speculation is a significant and rewarding part of the Babylon five experience, particularly in the early days when you still are no are nothing.

Knowing John snows, he gave himself that says, oops, wrong show. He buzzed himself. He did. He buzzed himself for the game of Thrones reference. Thank you, Henry. That was 

Brent: great. Henry. I give that comment five deltas. That's so very star Trek of you of like, Hey, you guys are just not knowing anything that you don't know.

And that's totally cool because we're all gonna be friends like, and that's amazing. And Jeff. While I'm enjoying this experience with you. I'm gonna expand that into the broader meaning because what's really cool. Is this community with people like Henrie, who are develop, like we're starting to see the same names come back or not starting.

We've been seeing the same names come back. And we're like, kind of getting to know people in the comments section, which is super cool. And it's like, it's like hanging out with a bunch of friends. I mean, how many comments we're getting hundreds of comments per episode. And it's like hanging out with hundreds of friends for the first 

Jeff: time.

Yeah. It's one of my favorite things. When these episodes come out to be like, oh my gosh, who are we talking to this week? And I, and I'm not gonna lie. Like, and I think I even texted you with this one Henry. I'm like, this is exactly what I needed to hear. Like, this is so cool and validates what we're doing.

And I think we struggle. I know I struggle. And we talked about this before, so I'll just touch on it quick, but there's such a great Babylon five community. And it's hard for us to crack into that because. Because we can't have spoilers. And so we can't be 

Brent: a part of it yet. We can't have those discussions for the sake of 

Jeff: the show.

Yeah. So Henry saying, we're becoming two of you. Ugh. Means the world. That's awesome. That's awesome. 

Brent: Thanks Henry. 

Jeff: Appreciate it. We have a website Babylon five It's the number five, the word and Alexander Bo sent us a message through that. And you can do that too. He just click a little button, gives you a form, ends up sending me an email, but Alexander says, listening to your discussion of the war.

Prayer was so much fun. It's always great. When you can hear the excitement about an episode before the discussion even starts in earnest, I'm glad you found a sort of upper benchmark to say, ah, this is the potential Babylon five is aiming for. I particularly enjoyed your little leadership tangent on VE in lawn, your experience shown through in that discussion.

And it's great to see that kind of expertise applied to the show. I happened to run a leadership development podcast. So that was pretty, that's pretty great to hear. That's 

Brent: that's literally what we do is we take those skills we've developed on those podcasts and put it here, do it literally what we're doing.


Jeff: You goes on to say, plus I'm happy. You're finding so much more to like about VE now I think the actor did a great job handling the transition from comic relief to an earnest character. Thanks Alexander. 

Brent: Although in today's episode, he might have gone backwards just as tad, except for the death glares.

He gave lawn at one point. 

Jeff: Not that I don't have any feelings about yeah. We'll get to that piece for sure. Well, we like to guess what our episodes coming up are gonna be about. We just said no spoilers. We don't look ahead to anything. And so we literally see the name, the title of the next episode.

That's all we have. And so we like to guess what the next episode is based on the name alone. Brent, I'm gonna kind of cut this one, a little short for us because we. It was gonna be one thing you and I thought the same thing guess what pretty much was 

Brent: it was bingo and you know what that means. That's two in a row for yours.

Truly. Thank you folks. Wow. Thank you. I got the boxing one. I got Indiana Jones. 

Jeff: Here we go. The bar is going up high. That's impressive. But yeah, we're like, Hey, this is gonna be about the holy grail and mm-hmm there we are. Yeah.

Brent: Well guys, speaking of the holy grail in today's episode, we are discussing grail or as we come to find out, it is the holy grail. Now for those of that may be watching along with us. And maybe you didn't get to watch this one before you're listening to this show. Or you're just watching along with us anyway.

You've never seen babble on five, like us. Okay. First of all, you should be watching, but if not, Jeff, remind the folks out there. What happened in today's episode? 

Jeff: As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I took a, I'm gonna do that over again. I killed the 

Brent: react, but please tell me you're going to wrap this.

As I walked through the belly of the shadow of death, don't notice I don't look at my life in real lives is none left. Please tell me that's what you're getting. All right, 

Jeff: we'll do it. We'll do it. Yes. 

Brent: YouTube. This is just for you. Well, actually, no, it's more for me than anybody else. Go ahead. Something for you, Brent, like I'm so excited for this.

Jeff: As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I take a look at my life and realize there's nothing left. Well, that's what a guy named jinx. So is thinking, is he realizes he's spending most of his life living in the gangsters paradise? Well, at least at least here on babble on five. Okay. Maybe maybe not at all.

Maybe, maybe I just wanted to throw that in. See jinx. So is wrapped up with some really bad dudes led by a guy named deuce. He owes deuce a whole bunch of cash. Jeff, 

Brent: Jeff, I'm sorry. His name has said DOE DOE it's put, put some respect on that name there. Jeff it's dose, as 

Jeff: Brent grew up in Kentucky knows better than anybody else.

I apologize for my accent. Well, do do do. I can't even do it. I can't even do it. 

Brent: Yeah, don't do that. That's it's just offensive when you it's defensive. Like I can, because that's where I'm from. You that's just don't don't do that. All right. I'm 

Jeff: gonna go back to where jinx. So owes deuce, a whole bunch of cash and he's here to collect and jinx so wonders if he's worth that Dee.

If you got that, you got it. If you didn't well, look it up, but de is about to get his due in court. So he's making sure that that doesn't happen by wiping the minds of witnesses against him. And how does he wipe those minds? Oh, he doesn't, apparently he's got ambassador Kosh doing it. Boom, BU boom,

moon gold Madrid. I mean, Aldo GAE comes on board to, well, 

Brent: I thought it was chancellor Gor con 

Jeff: maybe. Yeah. Or, uh, any of 16 other, he was on the planet of, uh, Colonel ni three as well. Mm-hmm 

Brent: yeah, he was also on the planet of the apes. 

Jeff: He was wasn't guy's pretty ubiquitous and AMA and absolutely amazing. He doesn't win an award in his lifetime just for what he does in this episode alone.

Then I have lost faith in every award show ever. But he's here to search for the haha holy grail or the sacred of vessel of regeneration or cup of the goddess, the Menari hold this guy in really high regard while Sinclair finds his quest laughable. Well, our buddy jinx so tries to pick pocket him and ends up getting sentenced to hanging out with him while the, with hanging out with the grail hunter as he takes personal responsibility for him.

But not before we learn that jinx O earned his name, jinx O by basically destroying the other four Babylon stations or not. Maybe it just turns out that he happened to leave each station at a very opportune time just before they either went boom, or just disappeared.

Dr. Franklin figures out that the mind wiper is a NA Colleen feeder. A creature. So terrifying that Lawndale hands over super secret documents and locks himself along with VE in his quarters. Okay. Whew. It's not Kosh apparently. Well, all this explains to jinx. So why he hunts the grail and says, that's why they call him the seeker.

Okay. That one was a who reference there. I'm full of these tonight? Well, they start really connecting just about the time that Dee's thugs come for jinx. So, but they end up kidnapping the seeker. His Dee is about to dump him and the ombuds judge to the feeder, Garrett balling and crews swoop in for the rescue.

The feeder gets killed and sent to Franklin for examination. While the seeker gets caught in the crossfire, as he blocks a blast meant for jinx. So as he dies jinx, so, or Thomas, as he goes by now, agrees to take on the quest for the grail. All this is last words are you have chosen. Wisely or not, but it's, it's totally implied.

That's what he meant. Thomas joins all this's body. As it's sent off to be buried. Delan makes some really weird and kind of uncomfortable comments to Sinclair about him being a seeker as well. But he Sinclair Garibaldi, Nivan nervously watched Thomas Head into the jump gate, fully expecting the station to blow up.

But in the words of Ivanova no boom today. So, Brent, what did you think 

Brent: grail? Well, there will eventually be a boom. I mean, tomorrow 

Jeff: somebody's gotta ask you got some perspective around here. It's 

Brent: gonna, it's gonna boom, sometime. Um, alright. This episode, uh, first of all, I just would like to reiterate for, uh, you know, sake of, I was right.


Jeff: for two. Yep. We're not gonna count the other ones. Just a two for two 

Brent: in the last two. Um, I'm terribly mixed on this episode. Okay. This was a season one episode, a hundred percent. You know what I mean? It was a season, one episode. We talked about war prayer earlier and, and one of the commenters had said, you know, setting a bar high, this episode does not come close to what war prayer was.

No, it does not. That being said. Uh, okay. It's not that I, didn't not like the episode. Okay. I just don't know that I liked it. Does that make sense? It does. I didn't not like it. I just don't know that I did like it. However, this is another one of those episodes and I feel like there's been a, a handful of these, this season so far where even though as a whole, I wasn't a huge fan of the episode.

There were several elements in this episode that I. Really, really dug and thought were pretty cool. But as an episode, I was like, 

Jeff: nah, it's do they all episode? Do they all basically involve lawn? Because like that's no, a lot of them involve 

Brent: David Warner. 

Jeff: Oh yeah. There's that? I mean, seriously, like we we'll talk, probably talk about it a little more, but there's a couple moments in this episode where, I mean, he is acting like his life depends on it.

The lighting is bad. Some of the costumes are ridiculous. The script is laughable, but he's like, I am mm-hmm this guy. I am 

Brent: the seeker. Everybody around him is acting horribly. Mm-hmm whether it's jinx, so, or Sinclair or whate. And I I've just decided we had this discussion last week. And just, just so you guys know I'm off the Sinclair train I'm off the Michael O'Hare train.

I like, I've just, I've decided he's a bad actor. You're just doing it. You there that's. That's where I am now to be fair. There have been plenty of star Trek actors that in the early seasons, I really did not like namely NAA, visitor portraying, ki Reese in the first couple seasons of deep space, nine latter seasons.

She really grew on me, Jonathan Archer, Scott Baula. I think he's the worst portrayed captain we've ever had in star Trek until you get to season four. And then he actually turned out to be pretty. Okay. Um, you know that we're no stranger to this. NELI got a lot better. Julian bash sheer got a lot better.

Um, yeah. 

Jeff: Bash. She did. Yeah. 

Brent: Yeah. I'm not gonna say about NELI Daniel Jackson in star at Stargate. He got much better as the show went on. Uh, Daniel Hammond got much like lots of we've seen lots of this happen. Although I think those actors were portrayed very, very well. Just the character got better. I'm hoping that happens with Sinclair.

I'm just hoping it doesn't take till season five. Yeah. For him to get better at acting in this role. That's all I'm gonna say there. That being said, uh, yeah, there's an episode that was full of a lot of things. Uh, full of a lot of things. I, let me try that again, please, mark. That. This was an episode where I liked a lot of the elements to it, even if I didn't like the episode as a whole.

Um, but David Warner. Oh my gosh. You, you mentioned there's a spot where he's just acting his butt off. The man gave a masterclass in how to die on screen. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh, my word, the man is acting against a, a adult film prop reject and he is holding his, I mean, it like, it's this, this big phallic thing hanging out there and he's staring it down, like.


Jeff: shall not pass, like you come 

Brent: forth from here. Like, and it was, and I bought every single second of it, you know? And then when he goes, when he goes to beat up those thugs, you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, dude, this guy is Yoda. I mean, he's bam, 

Jeff: bam. No, you know who this guy is like, and, and I'm feeling this, cuz I just, we talked a week ago.

I finished watching Obi won. This guy is the prototype Coon gin. Yeah. The way he carries himself, the way he is like, well I guess I'm, I'm going to have to beat boom. Just busted out. Like yeah. Everything about him. Yeah. And I, 

Brent: I fully expected when he got into that fight, he was gonna do some sort of like mortal combat subzero, like whoa.

Right. Some energy thing was gonna come out and it was be all sci-fi no, no. He just beat the hell out of him with a stick and did it well, I mean, Donna Tello, could've learned some moves from this dude. You know what I'm saying? So. I really like David Warner. Uh, there's a couple of other pieces in this we can talk about.

I have, I think I may be leaving this episode with more questions than I came into it though. Yeah. Um, but overall that's, that's kind of my vibe. How about you? 

Jeff: Yeah. I mean, I was just like, uh, I, I like the lawn stuff a lot funny. Oh, it was so funny. Yeah. Yeah. My, my complaint with it though, is that it, it was, it's not that it was funny, but they, like, they changed the soundtrack around to be like, this is funny.

Ha ha ha. Oh yeah. There was enough between him and veer that like totally made it work and it was their, their back and forth was excellent. Him and the casino was awesome, but they kept having just like. I don't know, like almost like nineties must watch TV sitcom, like, huh. Kind of music thing. And I don't know, it was 

Brent: pretty awful.

Are they insert of laugh track? I was almost like it was that close that close 

Jeff: this to me. A lot of this story just didn't hold up. Like, I don't understand where a lot of stuff came from. Like, okay. So deuce is some extortion guy and has a racket going on. He's trying to get rid of witnesses. Okay. I get that.

Why doesn't he just kill him and dump the bodies? Why does he got this mind sucker thing? Why is he making them think it's co I mean, they kind of explained that like we want, I want them to think the VRE lawn's working for 

Brent: me. He was, he was in Angar suit. he was Angar suit . 

Jeff: But yeah, just, I don't know. It didn't make a lot of sense and Uhhuh the grail, like the whole thing with the grail.

I've said this a couple times now, and I know people are gonna have, have thoughts when I say this, but if this grail thing doesn't pay off in some way, I'm gonna be really disappointed, like, like 

Brent: I, okay. So let's talk about what the grail was. So he's seeking his whole life for the grail, right. Mm-hmm which, you know, heals people and, and preserves life and whatever.

And I don't know if they ever actually found a grail or, or lent to it, or he, you know, Thomas was gonna go off and try to find it, but I kind of got the impression that in dude's dying breath. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm that he realized that he was the grail himself. Okay. That, that, like, he's going to live on that, you know, this spirit of the seeker is going to continue on now in Thomas, he, he, he realized like, oh, this is what's going forward.

So the it's been renewed. even if it's not me, I mean, he's doing a whole dread pirate Roberts thing with this kid, right? Yeah. Like, yeah. You know, he is passing on the mantle and, and he has healed jinx. So mm-hmm, from this affliction and I really, really, really Jeff at the right point, I want to get your leadership opinion on how the, the, that all this 

Jeff: treated, the mentorship, uh, jinx.

Brent: So, I mean, it was phenomenal. Yep. The way he handled this guy. Um, but I like the, I don't know if I was reading into that if I just thought it and because like, that's kind of where I was expecting it to go. Like, yeah, it may not be an actual cup that he was searching for his whole life, but he found it in the very, in the very last moment.

And now Thomas gets to go off and have that same journey. And it's been renewed. The search has been 

Jeff: renewed. And I think that makes sense too, because he talks about how he was on Mars and he'd lost his family and he was just a broken man grieving until some person came along who shared his quest with him and effectively healed him.

Yeah. As well. So healed him. He became, the seeker, went on mm-hmm he healed Thomas. Who's gonna go on. It makes me wonder though, cuz like he totally has some Jedi mind powers in this whole thing. Like it starts up where he goes up to the ombuds and he is like, oh, you know, in my temporary lap lapse of judgment, like the ombuds says that and then changes his plea deal.

He totally 

Brent: just like, okay, can we just call? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Can we just call him judge? Yeah, because ombuds is such a weird 

Jeff: word. So ombuds is a, it's a great, I, I work with ombudsman. We used to use the word ombudsman a lot. Now it's ombuds or ombuds person. Like that's a word I'm super familiar with.

I use time. Yeah. In fact I've never heard of this word before in my life. Oh my gosh. So I have a coffee cup over in my other office. I thought it was. That I got, because I present to our state's long term care ombuds on a regular basis and help them. But on ombuds is essentially an advocate. So I like I'll use the long term care ombuds as an example.

Cause I know it well. So long term care, like nursing facilities, assisted living facilities, things like that, huh? O ombuds people go into these facilities and they're there for the residents. And so if the resident has a complaint, Hey, my food is gross. Uh, this guy hits me at night. It's too cold. This is a person they can complain to.

And then they go advocate them to the regulating body or whatever it is. Ambu sometimes act as an arbiter sometimes, but generally they're an advocate for a thing. So if there's a justice system where they go see the ombuds and then they escalate to a judge or something that would make sense to me. But the use of the term ombuds person did not.

Didn't work for me. So let's maybe the 

Brent: script writer didn't know didn't difference. That's I just never knew that. Okay. I've just been educated. I had, I think they 

Jeff: were trying to be aspirational right. In a way of like, well, we don't judge people. Oh yeah. I did know though that they he's got the earth Alliance badge on him.

So it is an earth justice system. Yeah. Yeah. That they're using. All right. But yeah, so I, I, so he heals those people. He's kind of the grail, but he has those special powers. And so what I wondered is, is there a tie somehow in this to soul hunter where it's not just a dread pirate, pirate Roberts thing where it's the mantle, there's an actual transference of a soul, essentially that happens.


Brent: but does he really have powers though? Jeff? I, I, or is he just like, he's so confident in who he is, that it, it pushes out. I mean, cuz he had that feeder. Yeah. Like. Under control. Totally. Yeah. Until somebody like shot him in the arm and then he died, like, yeah. 

Jeff: That's where I think it's gotta be, it's gotta be a power of some kind.

It can't. Yeah. Like, I mean, maybe, I don't know, but just this, this, this mind sucker seemed to be pretty focused on just eating brains. Like that's all it wanted to do. And for him to just be like, no, it's not the darkness. There is light show th self, and then he just does like, yeah, those are, those are Jedi mind tricks.


Brent: uh, just, and this is the last word I want to have about the, the, the monster he's called a feeder. Yeah. This is about as glorious of a name that they could come up with. Remember in soul hunter, the pain giver, right? It's a pain giver. This is a about feeder. 

Jeff: I gotta give him a little credit there.

It's a Nuen feeder. So there's some Nuen thing. And this is the feeder 

Brent: species or race of the Nuen it's I don't know. It's a, it's a tripod and listen, folks. I just wanna refer you back to my, uh, my, my preview watching video. You need to go, uh, check that out. Um, it might be a little NSFW if you know what I'm saying, it's PG, but it's a little innocent.

Maybe not really, but shades of it's a yeah. Shades of, yeah. Yeah. The, the feeder it's one of those. It should be one of those that like goes over the heads of the younger listeners out there. Yeah. And they'll catch it a few years later, but mom and dad enjoy it for now. 

Jeff: We've been playing pretty loose with those references here lately.

We should probably keep that in check still that yeah. Yeah. We're trying to, it's a 

Brent: family friendly show. Jeff, exactly. 

Jeff: Family friendly show. But I think with the feeder, I, I, I wanna say because we've been pretty critical of the effects on this show and given its time and place, I was impressed with the design of the feeder.

Like I definitely saw these, oh gosh, have I already used, have I used one or two so far? Okay, good. I really saw the seeds of 8 47 2. Yeah. Like this, like this was kind of that, like, we, I think that the, the production company that did species 8 47, 2 on Voyager saw this, it was like, oh yeah, yeah, we can work on that and tweak this.

And mm-hmm I was really impressed with it. 

Brent: The, I mean, there were parts of this where the feeder was completely CGI at some point. Um, or it was CGI overlaid and like, it was really obvious cuz it went from, uh, physical prop. To CGI back to a physical prop, like, and you could see the hard cuts of where they yeah.

They made that and put that in. I think you're absolutely right though. Like, this is one of those you go, okay. Given what they had to work with at the time they did, they did really good here. Yeah. 30 years later, it doesn't really hold up. No, you know, like it looks, it looks every bit of like what we would watch tos, you know, back in the day, like it just the, the walls shake when they walk through a door, like , it's just what it is.

Like. Uh, 

Jeff: one question I have on that feeder though is, so I think, I think they called it quasi sentient when they kind of figured out when Dr. Franklin figured out what it was. Mm-hmm, , there's a weird scene where in the encounter suit, it starts talking. and it's like more food, more 

Brent: food, 

Jeff: richer food. And so it speaks English, apparently.

Mm-hmm I kind of wonder, and, and I'm not gonna fault Garabaldi or anybody for this, they didn't know at this point, but are they more sentient than we thought? And like, this might probably be more of a yeah. Like, I don't know. I, yeah, I think that I felt the second time I watched this episode, I felt really uncomfortable when they just blasted it into oblivion.

Cause I'm like, I, I feel like it was trying to commun if this were a star Trek episode, mm-hmm I don't think this is a reference. I'm just gonna say if this, if this were a star Trek episode, tell me if this needs to be a reference. But I think that when it tried to communicate, that would be a moment to stop and somebody would start asking que even in there it was just a criminal.

Somebody would be like, wait, did it. Does it think other things, does it have thoughts? Does it have feelings? Someone would've asked the question here, they're just like, yeah, we'll get you some better food. Don't worry. And then they blasted it into oblivion. Jeff, 

Brent: that's totally a star Trek reference, buddy.


Jeff: done. So alright done. That's the fastest I've ever gone through 

Brent: how many do I have left? I got two left, right? I think you got two left. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, you're right. That's exactly what would've happened. Captain, captain Bacard or somebody would've been like, oh, wait a minute. He's or Wesley or somebody.

Yeah. That thing's more cient than we, and that would've been the thing is recognizing and respecting life, all life, even when it's trying to eat you. Um, that would've been that would've been the star Trek thing and that's not what they were going for here. No, I'm gonna shift this to a little bit of a lighter note if you don't mind.

Yeah. So. Remember a couple episodes ago when the dock workers were really overwhelmed and I been over, it was really overwhelmed and they went on strike, even though they weren't really allowed to go on strike and there was big fight and, you know, dude comes in and he is like, I'll get you. I pretty at the end, like you remember that?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh apparently everything's cool on the docks right now. Yeah. Things are running super smooth. Yeah. I guess, I guess they used that 1.5 million credits to get those upgrades in real fast and hire some more people because they were like, Hey ship, come on in. Just welcome in park. Right over there.

We'll come get you. You need anything? Can I get your bottle of water, maybe a fill and some gas. What can I do for you? Like, 

Jeff: yeah. Super well, honestly, between this one. And then last week, like, like the last call to board writing rabbis in line 10 minutes. Mm-hmm get on here. Yeah. Running like clockwork.

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. 

Brent: Yeah. Docs just aren't aren't that overwhelmed anymore? Um, we got a good dose of Lanier in this one. I don't know. The last time it was, we actually got to see him. This might be the most we've ever really heard him talk. I think it was. Yeah. And be, and be front and center. Um, okay, so I have a prediction.

Okay. And this is more just it trying to be as UNS spoiled, as you can. 30 years later, the guy who plays linear is bill mummy. Mm-hmm bill. Mummy's a pretty big name. Yeah. Even back in the nineties was kind of a big name. Right. I cannot believe that he's in to play a little side character who doesn't actually do anything.

So a 

Jeff: little stink fan, like I'm sorry. Yeah, but I mean, oh my gosh. 

Brent: Yeah. And he, um, like when you, when I've seen things talking about Babylon five, bill mummy is almost always the first one that I see mentioned. Yeah. Oh yeah. Bill mummy was in that and then usually it's lawn and, and. Jaar those two actors.

Like it, it, those, those are the three names that come up as like, these were the guys in Babylon five. So he has to, he has to get a much bigger part. I'm assuming as the, as the show goes on and I don't know what that means gonna happen with the Lynn, if anything's gonna happen with the Lynn, but I'm ready to see more of him.

Like, I, I want to see this guy become who he's supposed to be. 

Jeff: Well, I think we've seen like NATA really? And I wanna 

Brent: see more NATA too. 

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. We've seen in a couple episodes of VE step up and do stuff. Mm-hmm so, yeah, linear. It makes sense, but I'm, I'm gonna be honest. I, I don't like him at all. I think he's a sequel fan.

I think he's, I mean, this sounds, I mean, oh my gosh, is I'm gonna say this. It's just like the most horrible thing to say. I, I just, I just wanted to punch him in the face. Like, he's just like that. Why I, well, I don't know what it is. What makes me feel to me, maybe there's some inner bully in me or something that's just horrible, but it happened like when, um, when all this comes on board and, uh, you know, and you must be linear and he's like, I am, and I'm very pleased.

Shut up. Who, who says that? Like, and then when they're sitting down, he's like, I was so honored to do all this research for you. We looked everywhere. I found nothing at all. And look at the bib. That's part of my outfit that I'm look, look how horrible and be. I just, I don't know. I, I found everything about his affectation about, uh, what he was wearing, what he was saying, everything about him.

I'm just like, I don't like this guy. I enjoy veer. I love NATA. I, I never see Lenir again. I'm gonna be fine. You know what 

Brent: though? What's really good about what you're saying is he's making you feel something about him. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Even if, even if it's detestation you, he's making you feel something about him, which is strongly pretty strongly too.

Right. Um, okay. Can we talk about the Mumbar because there's definitely some stuff that happened with the Mumbar. Yeah. We talked about more questions than we, than we had answers in this episode. So they're obsessed with seekers. Now here's what, I didn't know. I didn't know if they were specifically obsessed with this guy who was coming to the station because there was something myth, mythical, or legendary about the man Aldes or is it just the fact that this is a man who's coming, who is a quote unquote, true seeker.

And it doesn't even really matter if what he's seeking is real or not like that doesn't matter. It's just a fact he's a seeker. Yeah. And the Mumbar all about seekers and we found out about the, or we got reminded, I guess, of the warrior class and then there's the religious cast. And we wanna talk about that in just a second as well.

Yeah. But you know, obviously delin and and lane are part of the, uh, uh, religious cast. Like yeah. It's gotta be the ruling 

Jeff: cast. Right. I'm gonna guess. So. I mean, again with delin, I don't know for sure. 

Brent: I think it's gotta be religious cast. I really do. Uh, and I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong. The folks in the comments down there know.

Yeah. And they're laughing at me right now, or don't tell us saying Brent, you are absolutely right. Yeah. Don't tell me, we'll 

Jeff: figure it out. I think, I think they were most excited that he was a true seeker when, uh, when garal, the Sinclair were in Zocalo eating and Dylan was like, I can't believe that you are here and not waiting to go meet this guy.

You don't even know is coming. Mm-hmm she made a comment about, um, we had no idea that your race had such a wonderful, mysterious person as part of or something along along those lines, like she was shocked. So I think it was just like, here's a true secret. And then when he comes off board, linear's like, oh, that that's the guy.

Oh, you know him? No, but he has the look, 

Brent: the look. Yeah. So there's something about Mumbar as a whole, something about their cast, something about their culture that is tuned into something like this, which leaves me with the question, what is going on with these people? Like, I don't know what it is, but it definitely has made me sit back and go, they, they do this weird seeker spiritual thing.

Like again, I go back to soul hunter where, you know, it was Thelen who was like, give me back the souls, you have stolen the Menari soul so that we can, we can now all be one we're. We can't be one without these missing souls. And, you know, like, like she took it personally that there was some stuff going on there.

And yeah, this seemed to play into that. So I don't know what's going on. And then, you know, how does this go to the whole Menari thing at what they did with Sinclair and the hole in his mind? 

Jeff: And I was really uncomfortable with all that because she, um, she's talking to Sinclair and making the case that he is also a true seeker.

Right. But what I think really bothered me is what I, and maybe this is me just reading into it, but basically she's like, Hey, you have a hole in your mind that we put. and you're seeking it. So, yeah. Hey, you're a true secret too. Huh, buddy. Yeah. Like it really, it almost hit me like an abusive relationship thing where it's like, oh yeah, you got that bruise on your face.

Yeah, you do. Don't you? I, 

Brent: I think I remember the part you're talking about. And I remember looking at that going, like, she gave him a pretty hard look when she was talking to him about that. Oh yeah. And I was like, oh, she knows something. I mean, obviously, obviously she knows something is up with Sinclair and something about him and, and she knows what's going on, but like, it's like, she knows that he knows now, or she's teasing him with it or son, 

Jeff: I think she's trying to feel it out.

She's like you're seeking something. Right? Huh? Huh. Yeah. And he plays it off. Great. He's just like, yeah. I'm talking about all this. I don't know what you're talking about. Like mm-hmm 

Brent: so the, the difference of classes, this is the last piece I have on the Mbar. Um, the difference in classes or casts, the cast, I should say they only have two cast.

The warrior class, the religious cast. And apparently it's a really, really, really bad thing when they agree on anything. 

Jeff: I got the impression the last time they agreed led to the Earthman BARR war. Like that's why that war happened as they agreed. Yeah. She talked about the atrocities, the recent atrocities, and I feel like 11 years isn't really recent, but I can't think of any other atrocities that came from the 

Brent: men bar.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, so like is the idea that just the war, everything, the warrior cast does is wrong. And so if we have any agreement we're agreeing with something wrong, like, is that the sentiment there? Like, why is it, if they agree on anything it's bad and let's hope it never happens again in our 

Jeff: lifetime.

I think it's, if they agree they're an unstoppable force essentially. And, and then, and then the lens at least has the wisdom to see that. Yeah. Where I think more, it may almost just be more political. Like she talked about, they were talking about the grail thing and. How they've asked all of their, you know, colleagues and colonies and stuff around the galaxy to help, but the warrior cast doesn't know about this and they don't need to.

So we're just not even gonna mention it to 'em like they don't even need to know about it. 

Brent: So Jeff, if I could, uh, allow my, my patriotism to flourish here just for a moment. All right. All right. Let's see it. This actually very much reminds me of America and we have a two cast system effectively, or a two party system.

Okay. You know, between Republicans and Democrats and we almost never agree on anything on the surface yeah. On the surface. And I'm not gonna say that it would ever be bad to not agree. Cause I think that's actually a really good thing, but that idea that can you imagine what would happen if our people could actually agree.

Could actu like, like, okay, here's your star Trek message. Right? Like if we can put aside those differences and actually work together and actually come together in a unified front, think about the last time that America really unified around something. Right. And you want, you know, the only thing that comes to my mind is recently was right after September 11th and the tragedies that happened there, the entire country was United around.

Let's go get those dudes. Yeah. 

Jeff: Mm-hmm we like 

Brent: everybody was like, yes. And you know what happened? 

Jeff: We're still, we're still picking 

Brent: up the pieces. We, we toppled two countries in like 30 days. Like it was, it was crazy. I'm not, I'm not commenting if it was right or. I'm just saying that that's what happened.

Well, I 

Jeff: mean, you can go back to world war II where we were United and literally the was at war and we were like, oh no, you're not, not anymore 

Brent: done. We're in it. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, you put us together and now you done screwed up. Cause, and frankly, that's 

Jeff: oversimplification. I don't wanna under you a hundred percent play what it was, but I mean a hundred percent, some level.

Oh, America's involved. Oh, okay. Well we're good now. 

Brent: Oh, and they're United. Yeah. They're oh, they're not fighting with each other right now. Uh, because they have a common enemy right now. Like, like again, this is, this is me letting my patriotism fly here, you know? Um, and yeah. Um, I, gosh, what happens if we actually freaking just can agree?

It's almost, 

Jeff: we're unstoppable. Exactly. It's that meme of like some like perfectly pristine, clean, super futuristic place. And it's like, you know, what happened if you know, this thing never happened? Oh, we would have this, you know, it's like, yeah, totally. We would. It would be utopia. Yeah. 

Brent: I don't know if they were trying to make that as a comment on America or anyone else or humanity as a whole, imagine what happens if humanity could unite, right?

Yeah. You know what I mean? How unstoppable would we be if humanity could unite? Well, and 

Jeff: honestly, there's your star Trek message. Well, and I was, and you've been teetering on your right there a little bit. I'm gonna you got one more, but watch me work around it. That's what happens in mass effect. so in mass effect, all I'm gonna give you a three mass effect on, I know you almost should mass effect.

Doune like, gimme the, but the, uh, all the different races are doing their stuff and whatever mm-hmm when humanity comes on, that's the thing that pushes them forward. In fact, if humanity hadn't come together and joined the galactic thing, the reapers would come in and wiped everybody out. So, yeah. Yeah.

We're all pointed at the same thing. I 

Brent: mean, in this same, in this same vein I'm in my other podcast, beat me up a star Trek podcast, my cohost and I, he is going through the show enterprise for the very first time and what we have discovered. And I've never really thought about it before in this, in this path, but basically the universe could not come together until humanity came on the scene and it was the it like, it's like, it's weird and it's self-aggrandizement, but it is what it is.

It's like humanity is the hope of the galaxy. It takes humanity to unite the people and bring them together, you know, because the Vulcans and the Endor and the teller, it's like, they were all separate and waring against each other. And it took humanity to say, stop it. I'm friends with all three of you.

We're gonna come together. We're gonna put that aside. We're gonna make this work. It took humanity to do that. Yeah. You know, um, humanity 


Jeff: unstoppable makes it makes sense. Cuz humanity is the one writing the show. right, right. If Tari were writing, it would, but, but, but you know, the whole point is that we explore ourselves through it and I think that's why, right.

Why humanity is the piece, speaking of humanity, mm-hmm, kind of being the tying force through everything again, to lighten the tone a little bit. How about that scene in the open in front of the judge, when dude was Sue an alien for his great grandfather, abducting, his great grandfather. I 

Brent: I, I said, then I was like, wait, is he talking about like the fifties Roswell, New Mexico dudes?

Like, okay. That's, that's good. Super duper funny. I love Jeff. I love it. When sci-fi takes earth history and rewrites it into being something new, like they, they give you a spin on what it really was. And here you, like, they talk about the holy grail. Well, yeah, was this, it was this or the cup of the goddess or whatever it goes by mini names, but this is what it is and are.

And even in this, one of like that wouldn't even wasn't rewriting. It was just a, Nope, this is true. And this is what happened. And there they are like, that was so by the way, that's why I really, really love Stargate because Stargate does that completely. all the way through the show. Anyway, uh, Wow. We have spent like the last 20 minutes talking about something that this episode wasn't even really about.

I know it was a line that's sent us somewhere else. I, I have a question. Okay. A technical question. How long is a cycle and how long is 300 of them? And they kept 

Jeff: dropping that. Cause at first I was like days. Yeah, no way. Is it, is it hours who gives 300 hours? Who does that? Right. Like, yeah, it didn't make 

Brent: any sense to me, but then later, like, Hey, you got a few minutes.

You gotta be up there in 10 minutes. Okay. Well, we're using that time nomenclature. So 

Jeff: what is it? And my guess was that a cycle is how long it takes for the station to rotate, cuz it rotates for, but that's just in my brain. Like I's the only, but how long is that? I have have no idea. 

Brent: Right. Three. That actually makes sense is what that could be.

but like, is some, who's counting 300. How do I it's 300. Like, do I have a watch? That's rotating with the thing 

Jeff: it's spinning so that I feel initially in one place. So it's not like I can be like, oh, there's one. Oh, there's two you got 

Brent: a little thing that you're ticking by 

Jeff: every time it goes by, it made no sense.

It was actually on the second time I watched it became really distracting when they're like, you have 300 cycles, you have 240 cycles. I'm like eight minutes. What, what is happening? Yeah. 

Brent: Um, oh, oh, you know me in signage. I love signage. This wasn't a sign, but it was a graphic on the TV. And I've never noticed it before Bab com Bacom yes.

Bacom. They're just like, that's the name of their communication system is Bacom 

Jeff: we're on Babylon five. Well, should we call the communications system? What about B T and T right? Like the Babylon telephone and Telegraph? No, no, that's not gonna work. I don't know. I mean, it's just a PAB. Bab com you sir. Why don't you go?

And, uh, let's let's find the guy who wrote the, uh, wrote the jingle for Menon by Mennon Menn. Hey, we need you to, uh, Bab nice job. I'm told Jim Gaffigan bit there. It's yeah, 

Brent: absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Um, 

Jeff: oh, okay. Talk about this Tari. Oh, you were gonna talk about something. No, no, 

Brent: actually I was getting ready to go to the sari, but let me transition to it for us.

Oh yeah. So we can actually talk about sari. So they say something in this episode that has me going. So what happens on the shit on the station now? They said that thing is from lawn's jurisdiction. Mm-hmm so like, are the ambassadors in charge of various sections of the station? 

Jeff: Oh, I read that totally 

Brent: different.

Or like what? Like, or he came from a Sattari world. So now he's like, I, I was, I was so confused about, oh, we're in lawn's jurisdiction now. And we are gonna bypass Ja car's jurisdiction. Like 

Jeff: what? Yeah, I totally read that as this came from Tari space and Sinclair base goes like, oh, lawn. Yeah, this is lawn's jurisdiction.

That's his area. Let's go ask him about it. I, yeah, I don'tunno made sense to me. 

Brent: I, that, that actually makes more sense than lawn's in charge of a section of the station. Yeah. But it like the way they went into it, I was like, it just made me think maybe it was actually. A physical part of the station where he was in charge of.

And I was like, that's new. Yeah. That would not true. I hope that's 

Jeff: not it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was just okay. That these Naline came and, and I think that's what we kind of saw where, oh my gosh. Like I hate again, I hate that they made this into comedy, but the minute he knew that this feeder thing was legit.

He's like, Nope, I'm outta here. I'm here. You want, you want top secret stuff? Great. Here you go. I'm in here. That was legit. Yeah. the one thing like, if I could go back and change, there were a lot. So he's in the casino. That's where, where was yeah, Sinclair went to go catch him in the casino. So he loses, he doesn't get his 17.

He's drinking a little bit as he is talking to Sinclair, he reaches across grabs somebody else's drink. Dumps it into his . Is that what he, 

Brent: that's funny. I'm just like, oh, that's, that's good. That's funny. 

Jeff: When, when he's like, realizes Sinclair is serious, he sets his drink down. He's like, you need to do this.

You need to shut it down. And then he, I wish he would've grabbed his drink as he ran out. Like, I thought that would've been a great touch. That's funny. Yeah. That's 

Brent: really funny. 

Jeff: But then it all wraps up at the end. would he and veer and garal the outside and Garabaldi does the thing that I do to like my five and six year old nieces and nephews where I'm like, yeah, everything's fine.

But if the ghost comes up the stairs, then you should, what ghost? Oh, no ghost. There's no ghost except a ghost that no one else can see. And don't tell your mom that I told them, right. Gary bald pulls 


Brent: I told you, I said G bald. So screwed with these guys right now. The one thing I missed was as Garabaldi walked past them and then walked off screen.

He never SMI usually you get like the little smirk of like, he, I got 'em to tell the audience like. Yes. He was just screaming with it. He never did that. And I was like, 

Jeff: and he, this is why I I'm gonna look at dressed. Like how you get dressed is why when you get dressed and you wanna be cool and fancy, you have one poppy, accessory, like you don't have a real poppy watch and then cool socks it's too much.

You gotta have one. In this case, the punchline was lawn sneaking behind veer to get in and lock the door. If they had, Garabaldi doing the smirk on his way out, that's two accessories. So they followed the one accessory rule and, and I respect that. Fair enough. 

Brent: fair enough. All right. Um, did you have anything else about the Tari?

Jeff: Just that I loved how veer was so eager to help and be efficient yeah. For the seeker. And Orlando's like, what are you doing? Right. We need to tell them this is gonna take years and money. Like it was just this really scathing commentary on bureaucracy. Mm-hmm he even said, he's like one of these days, you or these other young people are gonna efficient the sentar Republic out of existence.

It's like, I work with those people. I know them who were like, we can't, you can't do it that fast. That was really good. 

Brent: I didn't get that whole conversation. No, no, I didn't get it at all. The, that spoke right to me, like when lawn was like, stop it stop. Like, I, I knew he was like, oh, he's getting into it.

But I was like, why, why does lawn 

Jeff: care? He cares because one, if people start to believe that your government or organization can deliver things quickly, they're gonna start expecting that on a regular basis. Two. He saw an opportunity to profit cuz he was paving the road of like, well, I'm gonna talk to a lot of people.

This is gonna take a lot of time. You know, if you were to give me this much money. Yeah. I could probably speed that up where Vere's like, oh I'm already, I'm already done here. It is. Mm-hmm yeah, it was, to me, it was just like this moment that they had funny playful music about, but it's just like, wow, this is some of the most skating commentary on government that this show has had so far.

Brent: All right. So I'm gonna throw this over to the leadership side and I want your comments on this. Okay. I want you to compare lawn's treatment of VE particularly in front of guests versus Aldi's treatment of Thomas. 

Jeff: What lawn did was inexcusable a hundred percent inexcusable. The right thing to do would have been to let veer do his thing.

No, let me back up one step. If he was handing over like that super sensitive information, they gave to earth. Yeah. Lawn needs to intervene and be like, no, no, you can't give that to him. Well, he did is inexcusable. You never jump down somebody's throat like that in front of people ever. If VE is not strong and confident that will destroy him, destroy him.

He'll never, he'll never do anything again, but all this and Thomas let's just call him Thomas. I oh my God, this guy's incredible. So the, the it's a form of mentorship. Mentorship is really someone with more experience than you that asks you questions and presents things in a different light. And generally just makes you think about things.

Differently. Contrast that with a coach who actually helps you do things differently, really oversimplifying these things, but it all starts when jinx, so or Thomas is talking about how he blew up the stations and he's a jinx and he's like, all this is like, you're thinking about this wrong. You're actually a very lucky person.

You happen to escape, you know, at the perfect time and all these. Wow. I've never thought about it. Yeah, no one, no one does. And there's all, there's a number of these little behind the scenes or momentary things that happen between the two where all this is never trying to be the hero in any way. He's just like, Hey, look at this thing this way.

Oh, think about this thing this way. And then Thomas can either take that as he did. And then mm-hmm, literally change his life or he can brush it off. It's up to him to do, but oh, all this is did an incredible job mentoring him. And I think I forget what episode it was, but it was when, uh, veer stood up to lawn.

We talked about, you know, oh, there's gotta be behind the scenes stuff. In fact, I think it's from the comment that I referenced to the top of the episode, but where, you know, lawn must have really mentored this guy and really helped him out and stuff. Well, if he did, every second to that time was just wasted by him jumping down his throat in front of, uh, in front of the seeker in jinx.

So there, 

Brent: so two, two thoughts on that. Mm-hmm real quick. One, the veer thing, veer reverted in this episode. Yeah. You know, like he took some steps forward back during, was it war, prayer? 

Jeff: I think it was war. Prayer. 

Brent: Yeah. Um, he took some steps forward and specifically standing up to lawn, like, like his hair grew a little taller that day.

Yeah. Well, he got a haircut in this episode. Yeah. Like he really went back to the comic, the comic relief. The only thing that ties those two pieces together is after lawn just dresses him down, particularly in front of the other dude. When lawn walks away, veer like kind of goes from this sort of goofy cowering guy.

Like he straightens up a little bit taller. Yeah. And he's shooting darts with his eyes to lawn and I'm like, okay. Something seems like it's happening there with VE and I, I, I need to know what it is. I need to know that veer is not gonna be the guy who gets locked out of the room every day. And this is gonna become a running gag.

Right. You know what I mean? Like joke exactly. Like he's not just the, the, yeah. The pudgy sidekick. Like I need VE to be a guy 

Jeff: before the war prayer. Like I, I called him the butt of the joke, you know? Yeah. Vere's the, the punchline to everything mm-hmm and that was the first time I was like, oh, oh yeah, there's something here.

Yeah, he did. He stood up a little bit, but he was, he was the butt of, of every joke and, and they made it so apparent that everything the Sentara did in this episode was a joke. And I thought that was really disappointing. 

Brent: But with as heavy as it was, they did need a little bit of comic relief. And that's what they went with.

Right. Wrong or indifferent. That's where they're you mentioned all this in Thomas and that whole relationship. I gotta tell you, uh, you earlier referenced him like qu gun gin. Mm-hmm the whole Jedi master versus the pad one type of situation we've said before in the show that that I have some formal training and religious studies and stuff, this very much reminded me of the type of a relationship that you would see with like a prophet and his, his man, like the guy who's gonna take, literally take on the mantle and, you know, specifically I was thinking of Elijah and Elijah, Eli.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I was thinking of those two specifically, like it, it had those sort of vibes. Wow. I'll take J Jedi and pad one as well. Cuz it's kind of the same thing. yeah, honestly like the, the model is there. Um, but I gotta tell you, I said last week I want a rabbi. Because I loved what rabbi cost left did.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you need a castle. Thank you. You need people like that in your life. I need David Warner in my life. Right. like, I need, like, this is, this is a dude who builds you up. I want him in my life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and my gosh, he's just, when you thinking 

Jeff: about Thomas, he was lost.

He owed a hundred thousand credits. He had no hope of anything. He was happy to clean methane toilets all the way to him putting on the, the, the scarf, the stole. Yeah. Carrying the staff and saying, I'm gonna, I will find the grail. Yeah. What a, what a transformation. 

Brent: And he, and he looks like my son wearing my suit.

the thing was too big for him, but you're like, he's gonna grow into it. 

Jeff: Well, he, he was doing like, and he was, he was doing that, like puffing his chest out a little bit. He walks by the lens. He stops. He looks her right in the eye as an equal. You know, and moves. Oh my gosh. It was great. 

Brent: So good. Yeah. It's so good.

It was so good. Um, it's it's really good. So, uh, Thomas leaves the station and it didn't go. Boom. Yeah. So this is really, I think the last question that I have here, um, is this raise just raised this, raised it and put it front and center. What did happen with Babylon's with Babylon and then Babylon two, three and four.

Yeah, because remember he said they did name 'em back then, right? Yeah. Right. That the first one, anyway, 

Jeff: it was actually upsetting almost in a way that they even brought that storyline up. and then did nothing with it, you know? I mean, yeah, I get it in the story arch. Hey, reintroduce. This concept. Okay, cool.

That was good. And they did it. This one was sabotaged. This one just blew up this one, wrinkled and disappeared. Great. Mm-hmm super good reminder of everything, but I wanna know, like, I don't want curses and rumors and whatever, and that, that doesn't move the needle forward at all this, right. Yeah. I mean, and, and in a way, like, it would've been great if he went through that jump gate and something went wrong.

Right. Mm-hmm I mean, not, not that, I mean, I, I would never wanna lose the scene with IVA cuz that was great. But also it's just like in that second they're like, okay, so literally all BS that came before this it's just know whatever coincidence, right? Yeah. I, I was bothered by, by that. 

Brent: I would've loved like, as he goes through the jump gate that like.

Somebody walking by dropped a tray of glasses or like, just something 

Jeff: like, even if, especially when they're all, they're all playing cool. Like, oh yeah, Chris didn't bother me. Yeah. Me either Chris. Oh 

Brent: God. Right, exactly. Exactly. And then Ivan's like, something always goes boom, around here. Yeah. You know? All right.


Jeff: one quick observation that I had. Um, and then I'll, then we can transition into the next piece, but mm-hmm, the shopkeeper who was the, be the witness that the first one, the first Miami running deer. Yeah. Miriam running deer. So there's Miriam running deer, Jason iron Hart, Uhhuh. I feel like this I'm wondering is this like a representation matters?

These are some real first nation indigenous, you know, persons type of type of names. I think it's great, but sure. This is the 23rd century. We're seeing right now, the, the homogenization mm-hmm of first nations people in, in our society now. So what changes right to where, like, this is, yeah, just an observation, a question at this point.

I think it's cool that they're using the names. Mm-hmm it's awesome. It is. Wonder if there's an intent behind it by, uh, J Michael TKI. 

Brent: Yeah. I mean, it, I mean, you hear a name like Stravinski and you don't think anything first nations, at least not with America, but you know, maybe there's some sort of, uh, relation to that.

Or somehow that's on his mind specifically that he's naming his people this, but I had that same thought, like I was looking at her, trying to see if there was any kind of a native American type. Yeah. You know, did she have a look, a complexion about her? Did she wearing any certain garb or anything like that?

That would further that besides just her name and I didn't, I, they, they didn't have the camera on her with lots of light to be able to see anything really anyway, But, uh, I, I very much appreciate that they're using 

Jeff: the names. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same with iron heart. There wasn't anything clear. It's just, this is, this is the name and I think that's pretty cool.


Brent: I had a, I had a, a comedian. I used to do a bunch of shows with when I was doing standup comedy. Uh, his name was Homer shadow, heart and he, he was, he was a native American and he, I mean, and that's his real name. And I was like, dude, that is the coolest ass name. Yes. I've ever heard in my life. Homer's a good dude.

Like Homer, if you're watching. Hi. You're awesome. I, I miss, I miss hanging out with you, man. I really do. He's. He's a good dude. Um, but Jeff, I think we've hit that spot where we've gotta do the analyzing. Now we do. I feel like we've already done a lot of it, frankly, but it's, it's time to boil it down and to kind of go, does this show have that star Treky quality?

Is there a deep moral message? Are they trying to say something, hold up a mirror to society? Give us hope for the future. Tell us to stop doing whatever we're doing and slap us upside the back of the head, something of that nature. So we're gonna do that. We're gonna grade this on a scale of deltas, zero to five deltas, as far as how star Trek, I guess we're gonna make this episode.

I'll throw it to you first. Jeff, how many deltas you 

Jeff: give it? Oh gosh. Well, so let's just say here that, and we'd said this already, cuz we also ask if we would watch this again and if we feel, yeah, we should have watched it sooner. The only thing worth watching this again for is David Warner and frankly I'll watch him in the other things that, that he's done.

I, yeah, I don't need to watch this, this episode again. I think that the themes in this that we talked about in here was the, was really, for me it was that mentorship and the power of someone else believing in you and how that builds up your own. Self-confidence. That's the thing that comes up in star Trek, you know, I mean, we, we see that as, and I, and off the top of my head, I can't think of episodes, but like in the original series where Kirk would go and try and help someone on the planet believe in themselves, or believe in something, they would stand up to the oppressor or whatever we've seen pieces of that.

I, I think it's a great message, I think, from a leadership standpoint. and I'll tell you, as I was thinking about this, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so star Trek. This is so like, mm, Nope. This is so star fleet leadership academy. that doesn't mean it's so star Trek. It is star Trek though. Um, in that message, I didn't get a, anything else really out of this one that, that Rangs star Trek to me.

So I'm gonna give us one, a little bit of credit. Um, I'm gonna give it one Delta for, uh, for at least touching on a really important topic that is foundational to some star Trek stuff. How did you rate it? 

Brent: Well, you know, we often say that there's a lot of star Trek F uh, lot of star Trek episodes that would not be very star Trek.

Mm-hmm okay. Um, and there's a lot of not great episodes of star Trek. Lots. Yeah. That are very star Trek. Mm-hmm this one falls in that kind of a category to me, like thought I thought that this was, this was a pretty star Trek episode. Okay. Um, because of like, because of that mentorship relationship that Aldi had with Thomas, where he thinks he is a curse, no, you're lucky he's passing on belief.

All this is valuing people around. He's being who he is. He's calling somebody up to be better than they ever were. He's giving them a purpose and it's not about acquisition of wealth. It's about making humanity better. All this is like, what are you gonna do with the, the GRA, what am I gonna do with it?

I'm gonna go heal people. I'm gonna make people better. Mm-hmm , I'm not about me. I'm about others. And I really, I really loved that idea. The idea of leaders lift. And I don't know if you've heard of this, this concept, I'm sure you probably have leaders lift those that are around them. Mm-hmm and Aldi came in and did that.

He lifted everybody around him and particularly Thomas, we saw that firsthand. So there was a lot of star Trek in this was this fully star Trek? No, but I will give it three deltas. Okay. I'm gonna give it three deltas. Cause I thought it actually had quite a bit. Do I wanna watch it again? I like the way you put it.

I'll watch David Warner and the other stuff. That's a lot more fun to watch to be Frank with you. When I watch this again, only if I'm doing a rewatch of the series. Yeah. Yeah. I'm never gonna sit back and go, Hey, let's watch grail tonight. Right. That's not gonna happen, but I'm not gonna skip the episode if I'm doing a rewatch either though.

Like it's, like I said, I, didn't not like the episode. I just didn't like it. 

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. 

Brent: But there's lots about the episode I did. Like, 

Jeff: I think that's fair. Well, that's it for grail. We did it next week. We're going to be watching eyes for the first time. And now you dear viewer and listener know everything that we know about the next episode, the title, that's all we know.

And we like to play a game where we guess what we think it's gonna be about. So, Brent, what do you think eyes is gonna be about? Okay, 

Brent: well, I've, I've got a good run going with one word's. 

Jeff: He's got a lot, 

Brent: lot on the line with one word titles though, with TKO and then I had grail and now I got eyes. So I think this is going to be

a love story slash somebody's up to something kind of a thing. Yeah. And I think it's gonna, because it's gonna be somebody's eyes, but somebody's eyes are watching you, but the eyes are gonna make somebody fall in love, or it's gonna put somebody under a spell or something like that, but then it's all gonna like be for not because that person's a bad person.

We're probably just so you know, the first person you see walking onto the station in the episode, that's going to be it all right. That's the person who who's doing it. But, uh, yeah, that's my guess is that this is a, like a love story. That's not really a love story in the 

Jeff: end, outside of born to the purple with lawn.

Well, no, no, nevermind. We've had some Catherine I, so we haven't really had a lot of romance in this, but we had Malcolm. You had a Boniva yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had some stuff, so that's not fair. Maybe it just hasn't resonated. Okay. I I'm gonna go a whole different direction just for the sake of the game. I think it's gonna be about, um, spies, like, uh, some sort of espionage.

I've got eyes on this and I don't know what that's gonna, who's doing this spying or anything like that, but 

Brent: that's, that's where I honestly, that's probably closer to the truth to what mine is. I don't know, man. 

Jeff: Like, you've got, you're the master at two for two. So if you can make it three, I don't know what you get, but you get something.

Yeah. So yeah. 

Brent: all right. Well get, get it ready cuz I'm taking the 

Jeff: title, man, right? Yeah. Figure something out. Well, we're gonna find out here next week. Thank you so much. For joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching on YouTube subscribe, like hit the bell, all that good stuff.

And if you are listening on the podcast, even if you're watching on YouTube, stop by apple podcast. Stop by podcast chaser. Heck stop by audible. Leave us a rating and a review. We'll send that out on our Twitter at Babylon first. We'll also read it right here on the podcast. And if you leave us a review, you get a really cool sound drop that I, that I love using.

So until next time Jeff don't do it. Don't do it. Why? 

Brent: Because you do the same thing every week, man. Why? Dude? Honestly, it's kind of making some people uncomfortable. All right. Good. Look. You know what? I'm gonna get one of those feeder things to slap you in the face live 

Jeff: long and prosper.