Grey 17 is Missing | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters until we watched Babylon 5 for the first time because that changed everything. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. And for the first time, for the second time, Jeff and I are looking for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series. The things that Jeff and I pull out, maybe JMS intended it, maybe he didn't, who knows. But it's the things that we got. You know, we're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things could be better in the future. Or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, if you have not been through this incredible series for the first time yourself, what are you doing here? You know what? This is not the show for you. we love you you're an amazing person we have a show just for you it's called babylon five for the first time go back and check that out completely spoiler free and trust me that's the way to do it if you have not seen the show but if you have you're in for a treat.

[1:58] And if you have then you know what i'm about to say probably is a good warning for everybody out there this is your one and only spoiler warning anything from this point forward is fair game for jeff and i to talk about from any point in the timeline from any point uh in the franchise whether it's in universe out of universe does not matter it is all fair game and jeff and i will not be spoiler warning anything else outside of this one jeff i have a special spoiler warning for this episode wow okay you know how you and i have our little time machine we go back and talk to jms yep yeah well apparently he left a message for us in the past oh he's speaking directly to us it's happened a couple times on this journey we'll get into that here in just a few moments all right jeff what are we doing today today we're watching a gray 17 is missing for the second time the first time we watch these we would guess what the next episode is going to be about we lost it again we did we can't lost we found it and then we lost it again right it's somewhere between like the candle and the dark and i don't know where the gray went but has anybody thought between 16 and 18 just saying right that's a place to look if you want hey spoiler alert it's right.

[3:14] That's how you count it. My prediction for this one was, you know, Sinclair is gone. The Rangers are kind of shook up a little bit now. So Sheridan's going to have Garibaldi stage an accident, something that will make it look like Gray 17 has been taken out. And then they're going to turn it into a Ranger training facility. They're going to put Marcus in charge of it. And this is kind of how Marcus is going to rise in prominence amongst the Rangers in this post-Sinclair era. What did you predict for this one? Oh, Jeff. Oh, Brent.

[3:51] Jeff, have you ever been to Walt Disney World's Hollywood Studios, Disney Hollywood Studios? I've been there with you, actually. Formerly known as the Disney MGM Studios. There is a ride there called the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. Yes, the same Twilight Zone that JMS himself used to write for. In this ride, the story of the ride is is that an elevator one day got struck by lightning and just sort of poofed, disappeared, and sent its residents into, or the people that were on the elevator, into the Twilight Zone, and you were getting on the ride to go into that same elevator. It's a great ride, by the way. Amazing ride. It's a very fun ride. I would like to read for you what the computer pulled our transcript as, as my exact quote. All right. So, Gray 17, that is the station. It could be a portion of the station that is missing, Maybe. It could be. Thanks, ChatGPT. That's helpful. No, that's what I said. A portion of the station is missed. Gray 17 is a portion of the station, and it's missing. I did go a little further. I said maybe it blips in and out, kind of from the last episode with War Without End. There's a tacky unfield over it or something, and it's just sort of blipping in and out of our time.

[5:12] Yeah. It takes a little bit to read through the transcript. Yeah. It's not the clearest, but I do – it's a portion of the station is missing is what I said. Look at you. I also kind of as a bee to sort of cover my butt a little bit, I said Gray 17 actually could be something that has to do with like the Gray Council. And like you have Gray 1, Gray 2, Gray 3. Like they're the Gray Council. All right. And so, like, whoever is assigned to Gray 17, whoever that's a person, and they're missing. It could have been that one as well. Okay. But I'm going to go to the first one. A portion of the station is missing. That's why you're the king, baby. You're like, you know what I think it's going to be about? Gray 17 is going to be missing. I don't know that I knew that there was a gray section of the station. I knew there was a brown. I knew there was a blue. I don't know that I actually know any other color. I'm sure there's a red and a green and a yellow. And apparently there's a gray. I don't know that I actually thought of in the moment that there was a gray. Well, to refresh your memory, what do you say we go back and see what we said the first time around? I would love to do that. I love this. Here we go.

[6:19] Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Ray 17 is missing the zarg the cult i want to call it what it was it was goofy i saw the name robert england and i went this is a horror episode you know how sci-fi does horror jeff yeah yeah it's not good no it's never good and i felt bad for robert england i love robert england so i was ready for it i was let's get stupid with this let's go we have a literal chekhov's gun No, they went a whole different route. It was Chekhov's ammo. For our listeners out there, let me just take you down a short little physics lesson. So either it blows up in the tube.

[7:00] Blasts Garibaldi's face into oblivion, or it shoots all the bullets out at once. The big organic tech monster in Infection looked more believable and menacing than this Zarg. At what point did you think this was going to be serious? At some point, you just got, look, I'm going to go get some popcorn and we're going to embrace the cheese, man. I think we got to talk about Naroon and D'Lynn. Naroon had this line, though, that I just found absolutely disgusting.

[7:27] Dilute their purity by allowing the humans to enter in. Dude's all racial purity, but I think it makes the end of this hit that much harder that they had him be so explicit about it in this episode. Do you think Naroon was right? About Delenn. About Delenn using the Rangers to consolidate her power. I don't think she's doing it maliciously, but I think there may be some undercurrent political intent. The Naroon-Marcus fight. I loved that whole scene. It was very Empire Strikes Back. There was no obvious stunt fighting happening. I often felt like I was watching fight choreography and not watching a fight. But hey, you know what? For a fight like that on mid-90s television, not bad. They told such a story in that fight. Are we standing on the precipice of a Minbari Civil War, despite what happened at the end of this episode? I don't know if it's a civil war, but I think it's definitely a collapse of their known society. So I have a theory. I want to hear it. What I think is going to happen is that the next step is the warrior cast rising up to cleanse the blood between the casts. Nerun is going to switch to religious cast. Wow.

[8:44] And now, the conclusion. What? I don't remember I made that prediction. Are you kidding me? Coming right off of the Valen crap? And in a couple weeks, you get Anna? And you hit Naroon going religious cast? What? I don't remember that at all. Wow. Look at that. Wow. I was just sitting back here going, we predicted the Mimbari Civil War. Naroon is going to switch to religious cast. Oh, my God. Wow. Wow. Maybe I'm pretty good at this thing, maybe. Here. Here. Here, Jeff.

[9:22] Right? Oh. Other side. There you go. There we go. Take it. You got it, man. It's yours. You got to get that mirror thing down. Dude, I sent you a literal crown, man. You did. It's in the other room. Oh, okay. I can go grab it. That's your problem, son. Right. Hey, you said that he left, JMS left the message in a bottle for us, essentially. Did you find anything else that he said on this one? I did. I did. He actually had quite a bit to say, mostly not in defense of the episode, but just sort of explaining what happened. Well, you know, there was a note in Interludes and Examinations. He debuted that episode at a con in, as MegaCon actually in Florida that he debuted it. And he said like, Hey, everything. I tried some wild stuff with this one and it went really well. Not like some other episodes like Gray 17. So he says this, he says this, he says, I think it's about three fourths of a good episode where it falls down for me is the Zarg. I just have this constant desire to go to everyone's house and personally apologize.

[10:26] That's his words. Here's what he says. He says, walkabout for me is a good episode with a few clunky parts. Okay. I think that's fair, right? Yeah, yeah. He might have be a little high, the clunky parts being the songs. He might have a little bit of a higher opinion of the episode than we do, but I think we even can, we didn't say, we said, oh, it's not a bad episode. Right.

[10:51] He says, walk about the middle of the road episode. Fair. I'm with you on that. He says, I didn't much like Infection, but many people did. And some shows that I love dearly, like Geometry, just didn't catch on. Geometry of Shadows didn't catch on. I bet the first time. For those first time watchers, Geometry of Shadows didn't catch. Did they not understand foreshadowing? Isn't that interesting that people wouldn't get it the first time? That's weird. He says it's subjective. Subjective. The Jeremiah, that's the Robert England thread here. Okay. Right. The Jeremiah thread was one of those things that looked great on paper, but when it gets into camera, I don't know. It's just one of those weirdnesses that happens in television.

[11:33] Sometimes you've got what you think is an average script and it roars to life on camera and something that looks great on paper, but in real life, I'm happy with all the other stuff in the episode, but the Jeremiah thread didn't come off as it should have. I'm sorry. When you bring Robert England into your script, you're getting goofy horror. Yeah, absolutely. But that's what you're doing. Top tier goofy horror. Yes. As soon as you see Robert England, I said it in the, in the first time I'm my whole taking this episode seriously is out the window. Let me just grab some popcorn and enjoy it, man. That's really what you got to do at that point. Right. Yeah. He says, I think it was in part also my fault. My brain was gearing up for all the stuff that begins ramping up with the next episode being rock cried out right or shadow dancing rock cried out and the gray 17 was something i'd wanted to do for a long time and i knew that there wasn't going to be a chance to do it down the road if at all so taking our message for later on jeff he took the opportunity while he had it to try something new all right yeah and go for something he says there's not a writer alive who hasn't who has turned out nothing but terrific stuff.

[12:48] Now, one could turn out a lifetime of mediocre stuff by not trying, but I think it's better to shoot high and sometimes fall, knowing that you'll get something great one out of every five times than not to try it all and just do okay. It's like, oh, I forget who said this, but it said, if you're not failing, you're not trying. Dude, he says this, Gray 17 is the same thing for me. There are bits that I like a lot. Some of it just fell down dreadfully. That's simply the nature of the beast. I thought I'd try something different in the tone of gray. And while most of the writing works, mostly, the production, oh, shifting the blame, the production fell down a couple of aspects. It happens. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Jeff, I think the message of this episode lies in that story right there. Yeah. I really do. Okay.

[13:42] Try something new. Yeah. Experiment. It's okay if you fail. But you'll never know until you try. And here's the thing. Even when you do fail, guess what? It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean you're not good. It doesn't mean that you're not getting the job done. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means that particular one didn't work. It looked good on paper. It didn't look good in real life. I bring it up at work all the time, right? Like it's kind of a trope in business to say, you know, we got rid of the word failure or whatever. No, it was a failure. You tried a thing and it didn't work. But it was getting information. is what it was. And so if someone tries something and it falls apart, I'm like, great. What are you going to do with what you learned from that? And if you learn from it and you come at it again, it wasn't a failure. It was a step in the process. There you go. Now, Jeff, one more thing before we go on. Okay. JMS put a little, little something, something in there for us. Little dear Brent, dear Jeff. Yeah. Does it just say F you in this one? You know, I'd almost, it'd be, it'd be even better if he did honestly dear brent and jeff somebody edits the lurker's guide please just go drop that in somewhere for us please that'd be so funny.

[14:54] At the end of every episode what do we do with each episode we rank it and we rated it the first time and and what do we what do we put it in our ranking our ranking is what it's objective it is corrected as immutable it's 100 accurate 100 objective and correct pms says i'd caution against applying your standard as an objective one that is somehow more true than another and thus asking, what's wrong with you that I had this opinion? I appreciate the advice there, Mr. Straczynski. Thank you. I'll take it under advisement. And I summarily reject it. I summarily reject it. Yeah. Because what we say is objectively correct. It's in the title of the thing. I mean, frankly, it's just what it is. We're just calling it what the thing is. That's all. Yeah. And it's completely immutable until it's not muted. And it's completely objective until our subjectivity gets involved.

[15:51] It's totally objective until the object changes. I mean, that's the, it's the joke. It's the running anyway. Okay. Jeff, that's it. I've got a few things I want to talk about in the episode, but really I just want to get to the episode. Awesome. Let's do it then. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Hello. We're glad you're here. What's about to happen is we're going to bring up the episode. We're going to watch it right here. Talk about it. All the good stuff. We cut that up. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see an edited version of that, the reaction style video. If you want to see the unedited version with all of the flubs and the mess ups and us just kind of watching the episode, you can get that at our Patreon page. It's at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction because we're going to have lots of conversations in the middle of that. We don't want you to miss that. And we'll also have the conversation on the back end. So, Jeff.

[16:43] Why don't we get into this one? Grey 17. Let's go find it. Accessing file. Reporting through the files and conducting interviews. I hate being this open about it. I agree, but I don't see any other way to do it. We need as many telepaths as we can get if we're going to take on the shadows. Unfortunately, every time we tell them about that part, most of them quit instantly. There is another possibility. Could you imagine, though, like... Hey, so I'm a blip. I'm on the run. And I see this poster. Hey, telepath, come help out the cause. I'm like yeah i'm gonna do let me stand in line and tell somebody i'm a telepath that's where you're looking at that going that's a trap uh-huh 100 and if i'm with psycor they're not gonna let me go do this they're all allied with earth no that's when psycor sends people to go stand in that line and then arrest them running an underground railroad for telepath escaping psycor a while back he might be able to help us track down some of those people knowing steven he's probably wiped his files in order to keep anyone from misusing them but it's worth a try He's still on walkabout, so finding him is going to be tough, but doable. And for all its size, it's not like anybody can hide out here for very long. Franklin was not in the last episode at all, was he? Nope. Which is why the walkabout thing works. Yeah. Yeah, listen, Central. I've gone over these cables half a dozen times. I can't find a problem. We're still reading a dead power relay in Gray 16. Yeah, well, I don't care what you're reading. I'm telling you, they're all working.

[18:01] At least now, I have to put them all back, and something might happen then. Then keep looking. We talked about that the first time around. I bet, yeah. Your guy's like, dude, there's nothing wrong here. I'm going to have a hell of a... Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

[18:20] Hey, you said I had to pay extra for that. Listen, with that right there, that should have been enough. That performance, him getting dragged in, that music sting, all of that should have been settle in get some popcorn freddy krueger's buck to come on the screen right take it take it set your take it seriously glasses down yes right just go right it's and that's where i sit back and go yeah it's goofy it's okay though like he he wants to things didn't work out you know what it is is i'm guessing in his head it really was supposed to be scary it really was supposed to be very horror creepy but you know the problem the lights are too bright oh yeah it's one of the problems anyway so there's this weird report in gray sector oh yeah i don't know what to make of this one they had some dead power relays in there last night and they sent maintenance down to check it out did i fix it yeah you're right it is unusual, the guy who did the work disappeared what do you mean disappeared he's gray 17 you go yeah that's That's what I said. That's what we call him. They found his gear, but no trace. What up, G-1-7? You want me to look into it? No, I'll do it. I like mysteries, but I hate gray sector. I swear it's like the Centauri Triangle in there. There's always some damn thing going wrong. Oh. Now that's called foreshadowing, Jeff. Can't you see it? That one I could see. Everybody with their mugs of Yoo-Hoo. Ivanova did her hair this morning, man.

[19:50] Don't mind me in the uniform. right feels like this might not be the place to go in uniform.

[19:58] Are you all right? No, he's going through detox, lady. The conditions are all right, and I'll see what I can do. Are you sick? The DTs. Stem withdrawal. I don't understand. You were fine before. Drugs that... The effects of withdrawal are immediate. With stims, it's... It's a little different. Caffeine stays in your system. It's got a long half-life. It's got a long life. It's got a long life. It's got a long life. It takes a while to flush it all out, but once it's gone... Well, I can't drink it after 10 a.m. What are you doing here? We need your help. I can't go back. I gotta... I got to work this out. I know that and I respect that. But we need the information that you gathered on telecast. If he didn't want to be bothered, why was he like, What are you doing here while she was walking by the closed curtains? Right. I purged the information from my main computer. But I have a backup. So I'm going to give you what you want under one condition. Don't send anybody else after me. Ever. What if you get into trouble? I'm already in trouble. Mm-hmm. The only thing I can do now is to keep walking until I meet myself and somehow work this out. Then why are you sitting down? Get up. Come on, man. Because he's going through the DTs, man. He's got to get his feet under him first. What better time to walk into yourself? Dad is in a hidden folder, code name Harriet, and everything you need is right there. Thank you. Goodbye, Susan, and don't come back. Dylan says that being alone is part of the walkabout experience, so it's fairly valid to set this as a boundary. Oh, yeah. I don't disagree with that. It's just don't invite people in.

[21:23] He could have let her walk by. She would have never known he was there. Exactly. Decided to hold the initiation ceremony here, if that meets with your approval. Not a problem. This is a little public. I mean, until now, the Rangers have only operated behind the scenes. That role will change. She's like, I'm in charge now, so it's going to become more visible.

[21:50] Good, I'll be right there. I'll catch up to you later. And again. Congratulations. Congratulations. These two still haven't kissed. Exactly. Power beckons. And who among us is strong enough to ignore its sirens? A brilliant strategy, Delenn. I had not thought you capable of such ambition. Clearly, I was mistaken. What are you talking about? The Rangers are commissioned after a thousand years of silence. The religious caste begins constructing new warships without the knowledge of... So a long-running question you and I have had is, what's the deal with the Rangers? We got that. Our initial impression was Sinclair formed him when he became the ambassador to Minbar. But then we found out later that they've actually been around since Valen's time. Yeah, Sinclair started them as Valen. Wait, what? Naroon just told us here. After a thousand years, they've been recommissioned or commissioned, whatever he said. But after a thousand years, they've been brought back, basically. What we know from in the beginning is they were still there, and there was still an analyst shock, Na. They were just, they'd become a punchline.

[22:56] And so I think when he says recommissioned, I think he means reinvigorated. Well, I would even venture to say that the Rangers maybe consisted of An-La-Shock-Na and An-La-Shock-Do. Right. And that's about it. And now they're recruiting again and they're getting people back in and they're also training the force. Because I got to tell you, whether they're the punchline or not, you have a fighting force as well trained as the Rangers are. You're not letting them just sit on the sideline. You're probably not making fun of them that much, to be honest with you. Yeah, you're right. In the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, it goes into detail on this. And a lot of it was, you know, Sinclair gets the gig as Ranger One. And there's stuff there. Like, there's existing infrastructure, but it hasn't been used. It's not popular. It's not a thing. But from Go, Naroon is just nipping at him the whole time. Forces him to go through rituals and things that have been out of practice for a long time. Just he wants the Rangers from Go. For consent of the warrior caste. You chose not to act. Someone has.

[24:05] Which is why we let you have them in the beginning even allowed sinclair to train them even though it meant diluting their purity by allowing humans to join alongside our own people we were quite tolerant of your activities but now their training is complete they require new leadership by right of tradition the warrior caste should be given command of the rangers That was the law set down by Valen. Three cast, worker, religious, warrior. They build, you pray, we fight. So JMS answered a question here. Okay. Why did Valen slash Sinclair leave the warrior cast in charge of the Rangers if they aren't really involved in the war? It's a good question. Because at the time, the warrior cast was involved back then.

[24:56] And it would have been a slap in the face to them to not leave them in charge. I get that. As they are the ones who fight. I love that he had that thought. Be like, no, listen, the religious needs to leave this because in a thousand years, you all are going to suck. Right. Right. By the way, to our earlier question, Jeff, we have just gone over our average normal viewers. Look at that. You plan to take command of a military force and fill that vacuum yourself? I really bought into this the first time. You have no desire to rule. So we had a question back then. I think it actually was in the video. Was Naroon right? And I think Naroon is 100% right to have this as a suspicion and have to bring it to her. I agree. We know that a lot of the things, this is my read on it. A lot of things happened across her. Like in this case, she didn't seek out the rangers. In fact, when Rathan brought it up, she was like, no, no.

[25:52] You know, she tried. But to Naroon's point, once she has the thing, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but once she has it, she's like, this is mine, and I'm going to make it mine. Well, she's going to accept it and receive it. That's exactly how she should hold it. Yeah. But to the outside observer. It looks like. And that's a good life lesson there, is there's a lot of times you will do something that you can be aware of in the moment. Hey, this is going to be bad optics. I know how this is going to look. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I'm going through a thing like this at work right now. I'm going to make the call. The optics are going to be awful. I'm going to have to eat some stuff because of it. But it's the right thing to do. Yeah. I've literally lost two jobs because stuff of like that happened. And like, look, this is going to look really bad. It's going to sound really bad. I'm not going to politic it either. You're like, this is the way it is. So, yeah. But I think Naroon's right. And frankly, Delenn, yeah, Delenn's the villain. To him, absolutely. I'm just saying, look, she's going to break the good council and then leave them with a power vacuum. You're going to take out a head of state and then not have something immediately ready to go in in its place.

[27:00] That's bad stuff happening, man. That's how ball takes over. Mm-hmm. Exactly. More people. I wish I could believe you today. Until we know otherwise. But I don't. A religious zealot, propelled by prophecy into a position of military and political power, always... Think about him saying this, knowing the true calling of his heart is religious. Out of respect, I give you this opportunity to walk away from the path you have taken. Refuse the position of Ranger One and turn control of the Rangers over to the warrior caste, where it belongs. Or... I am sworn to stop you, Delenn, by any and all means necessary. In other words, then I'll beat you up. There you are. Is everything all right? Naroon didn't want any of that linear smoke. Right.

[27:50] Okay, I'm not going to lie. Great two. Okay, first of all, when did Garibaldi get a landing strip on his head? His little faux hawk? He looks like Hawk from the Road Warriors, doesn't he? Or is it animal? Which one? It's one of those two. Oh gosh, it's Hawk. Okay, this is dumb to me. This is dumb on so many levels. I get you're going.

[28:13] It's dumb on so many levels. I get it. I get going level by level. The fact he's counting between floors already is suspect. Right. When it goes from 16 to 18, then be like, then you start doing that. But at first, you're like, I'm just going to make sure it stops at every whatever. So the thing is, in going down, down, down, down, right? Anybody in an elevator is going to know when the elevator is taking longer than it should. Yeah, exactly. Floors are fairly even as they go, right? So if all of a sudden I'm skipping two floors, I'm looking up going, what the heck? Like the fact nobody's noticed that the elevator is just skipping a floor, that's all that's happening.

[28:55] Also, when they built the place, is there not a 17 button on the panel? Right there? Yeah. Like did that just happen to disappear? like what's what's does it just just doesn't work and just bypasses again it's if it's going for twice as long then you're clearly going through something like this is this is this is the part that just doesn't hold up but again can't look at it seriously this is goofy horror i don't like i just don't care it's just goofy horror you can do as he sees fit you will tell the captain about this i assume no this is an internal problem linear if we cannot handle it on our own then we shouldn't be here so it's fair is it but you will not tell him about this to win your word i mean sheridan's read in on the ranger stuff yeah that's fair we have much work ahead of us that's fair i was just thinking more it's minbari fighting against minbari but yeah i mean it's it's minbari human very 16. I still love the lightsabers on the on the wall in in the last quarters right.

[29:58] He didn't keep his pace correct. Now that says Gray 17 right there. So there was something wrong from Go on the stage because they labeled it. We just found Gray 17. It's right there. It sits. Emergency stop. Open tube doors. Do you know who I am? Lift. Security override. Unlock tube doors. You open these fucking doors. And he did it through the power of counting. I mean, look how level he got that tube to stop. Oh, that's where we see that puppet, Lester. Yeah, this is where the Saw dummy became way better. This is the Saw dummy before the Saw dummy, right? Is it without this episode saw never would have happened. This is the progenitor, right? Why to play a game? You shouldn't be here. You're in trouble. It's really almost like even dark here. It's still almost too bright.

[31:18] That's an interesting thing they had over the lens of the camera i like how they didn't show us the part where he wet his pants one of our own a former member of the great council has challenged her right to lead the rangers i think he may resort to violence at this point marcus has to be like wait wait wait she's leading the rangers but i was taught that minbari do not kill Minbari. If he harms her, if a Minbari from one cast even tries to kill another, then the shock and anger will lead to retribution back home. It could even cause a civil war between the casts. And the same would apply if you went after him, so you're looking for a non-Minbari to stop him. Yes. He's probably gone into hiding. I want to know if Bill Mooney is looping the scene. It will be difficult. He won't appear again. I'm hearing mouth noises whenever he talks.

[32:05] Marcus, you need only delay him until the ceremony is complete once it's done it cannot be undone notice what's on the wall there right another a number of trinitarian symbols well but the one that's highlighted right there is effectively the triluminary like it's not the real triluminary but it's like a yeah symbol it's effective it's the flux capacitor for the rangers right it's interesting and i'm not quite sure what these other emblems are kind of look like ufo saucers but there's a silver one on the left there's a green one on the right and in the middle is a bigger green one the christmas one it looks like and then the look at the wall sconces right above it right they build they build another triangle spot they do oh they oh i missed that because i just they sort of look like spotlights a little bit and the way the oh you know what that green thing at the bottom i bet you is a light and it's shining up on the triluminary okay i'll bet you all three of those things are lights that are shining on the triluminary three lights shining on the tray luminary right good catch that's this hey listen you guys want to put something in your house that's decorative and is like a real subtle b5 thing do that and that would look pretty freaking awesome.

[33:18] Did jms happen to say where that thing came from or anything about it no no it's just such a weird thing to have lying around i remember there were some news oh yeah they mentioned the newspapers and the dates on them so we find out when all this went down i don't suppose this is the best time to point out you're all under arrest not the best opening line consider it's the it's the Freddy hand. Also, hard to be threatening in a sweater like this. Does it get a cardigan? It's like a corduroy cardigan. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. A beautiful day on Grace 17. We have signs. We have shapes. Equations. I was actually just thinking, it's a great, big, beautiful tomorrow. Shining at the end of every day. Welcome. To the end of the world.

[34:14] This is great. I love this. I love Garibald. It's like, oh my God. I love every bit of this thread, man. How many more did you say we've got coming in? Quite a few, honey.

[34:25] It's necessary for the ceremony. I never got the feeling that the rangers had to walk around like the Minbari priests. Well, I think it's just the Minbari ones do, because they're Minbari. No, some of the human ones are walking around like that. They got the Minbari pike up there. It's so long. The truth strengthens us, ennobles us, sets us free. Sets us free. You're getting free. There has to be a way out of here. The pressure doors are welded shut. The tube is disabled. Because we are the universe the universe made manifest it this is what the lynn has been saying for years to examine every aspect of its being we try to understand it because in so doing well we will understand ourselves so we i am really curious what kind of direction he got we've isolated ourselves in order to attain a purity you know what he almost sounds like i'm almost positive it was a shira character it's kind of like a little little short person of an alien design with probably some weird hair but he's like looky the wise one who is it looky that's what he sounds like to me yeah that's what he sounds like to me the way he's talking he doesn't sound crazy he just sounds like he's old and wise also it's what dylan was saying a thought is purity of form and purity of intent, purity of execution. That, that is the only way. So, you must be Nauru.

[35:54] We meet for the first time, for the last time. I was your father's cousin's brother's college roommate. My quarrel is with D'Len. You have any idea who I am? This is so Empire Strikes Back. Even with a little, like, recycler over there. That's actually pretty awesome to the death during the war i killed 50 000.

[36:25] At least they still respect the rules of combat, I guess. Neroen's not a piece of garbage, like he's warrior cast and he believes the stuff. I'm kind of watching for clear stunt fighting and there's actually quite a bit. On my first time in this thing, there's no real stunt fighting. For sure he'd be here. I don't know. Something must have come up. He's doing Marcus stuff. And that's clearly not Jason Carter. That's. The music, though, is fantastic.

[37:08] This whole, the Naroon stuff, this is all great part of this episode. To your point, the fight is clearly choreographed, but it's good. I still submit to you, this episode would have been much higher rated if it just had been for me. It will truly understand itself. And at that moment, it will transcend itself. It will become something else. Something even greater. Another big bang! We will be perfect. Shh. That lost a little of its luster with the empty plastic tub. Yeah, yeah, I did. Mike? May I call you Michael? Are you alright? No, you shot me with a poison, dude. He's like, I can handle two of you.

[37:56] Yeah, exactly. Dillon said in the chat, one from three makes one. Oh, three.

[38:15] Duty you've been trained well but you must have known you couldn't win so why do it i love his blood all over his pike for her we live for the one we die, what did he just say until uh sandeep or something like that he just called her sandeep we die in phalan's name so as soon as she drinks that is she now the one if the minister has to say i now pronounce you number one this belonged to the worker who disappeared you do this the body must also have, A whale that is equally pure. Start making sense. Does he really believe this stuff? I am. I think so. Now, if he required the universe, then the universe must conceal us in an act of absolute, absolute purity. Zark. Zark. Through biological perfection, it's a xenomorph. It's a xenomorph. It's a xenomorph. It's a xenomorph. It's a xenomorph. It's a xenomorph.

[39:19] It's a xenomorph. We'll be okay. I've got a stick. As it was done long ago, So now we name she who will lead us. So among the rangers, let her be known as until See, he was about to say it. Nerud came in and screwed it all up. Heard of the ceremony? I don't know. I'm sorry. This scene right here is pretty incredible. There is now blood between us. And there is blood between the warrior caste and the human. I do not think they would die for me. But they would die for you.

[39:50] Until the that's and i love lanier right here he's like oh i just killed marcus in my mind i remember him getting down on one knee i remember that bowing to her saying until i remember that too how do you and i both remember that and that's not what happened right i don't understand i and i can picture it in my head right now same with his pike right like like does it yeah actually exactly Yeah. In terms of... Someone asked a question of JMS. Does Naroon's revelation mean that the warrior caste is now more willing to fight beside the religious caste? Oh, I'd say no. Well, JMS says, I think he's closer to an understanding, but we'll see if the others all feel the same way. What was it that changed in him? Marcus caused a change in him. Yeah. Exactly what he said. His willing, they're not going to die for me. They'll die for you. So it's not me, it's you. All right. And he acknowledged her. Now, I remember we had a lot of conversations. We had a lot of feedback from folks that, one, they didn't bend the knee. Okay, I'll concede that point.

[40:53] Although I don't know how you and I both remember that. Because they actually explained it in the chat, the council chamber's chat here. We said he did and then kept talking about it as if he did. So we spoke it into reality. But how do we remember the same thing? Because we talked about it together probably. No, no, no, no, no, Jeff, no. That works. No, no. I know exactly what happened. I know exactly what happened, Jeff. We made a memory. No, I know exactly what happened. There is an alternate universe out there where that did happen. And then you and I did probably when we went back to talk to JMS and this became a change and we're now living in the change. Right. But that did exist when we watched it originally. And we're just crossing over multiverse stuff now. As we do. Who is the Intel Zah, Jeff? Right now? Delenn. No, that's a question somebody asked JMS. Oh.

[41:40] He said, whoever that is at the time. Yeah. No, actually talking about this. Until za whoever that is at the time is for all intents and purposes the one for the rangers so to our question that we constantly ask who is the one what is the one i even posited that the one is the universe or is the people right no it's it's actually the the one that they live and die for is their intel za now we're also supposed to believe that there's only been three intel za's and that's valen slash sinclair delen and then uh sheridan and then after sheridan goes away there's no more until all right it's just i don't know it's weird to me i feel like there should be more to it than just we like this person a whole lot i i kind of feel like there's two ways to look at this one they're the ones there you go the other one don't look into it too much it's we call them this and we call the other ones that andy until zarg well he's got the he's got the pike.

[42:41] I'm getting major Kirk versus Gorn stuff happening right now. Yeah. All those kind of vibes. You know, their makeup person did a whole hell of a lot of work designing that creature. Not really be so it was either this one or another monster but we put together a thing comparing the infection monster this monster and something else i forget when that was though dude lanier's got to feel like crap right now, I don't see why you're fighting this, Michael. Then why the hell are you in here with me instead of out there with that thing? Well, um, you see, I've decided that I'm not sufficiently transcendent yet. Then you better get your transcendent butt behind me and hope this works out because we only got one chance. Assuming this doesn't kill us before it does. Oh, I think you're right, Dylan. I think it was the Drak Emissary.

[43:39] Don't even think about it that was dumb from the gun to the huge back bump, going the wrong direction it's just goofy man uh what do you expect i don't mind it i'm gonna say we've seen a lot more goofy monsters in sci-fi than that right there we have absolutely i mean i watched ones that look awful yeah i watched doctor who i watched one the it wasn't zarg but It was like Zahara something or whatever. I just watched the other day and, yeah, it was really bad. But the thing to me is, I don't know. Yeah, it's just not good. But whatever. All we know is that we will die. It is only a matter of how, when. Like Sam Raimi can make it goofy but also grotesque. Any of us would have done. Respectfully, Delano. I think this is the one thing about your position you do not yet understand. To see a human invoke the name of Valen. To be willing to die for one of my kind when i was intent upon killing one of my own the rightness of my cause disappeared perhaps this is true what delen said that we are not of the same blood but we are of the same heart i love that he's open to this he was open to it to with sinclair and legacies even the next time you want a revelation could you possibly find a way that isn't quite so.

[45:05] Comfortable.

[45:12] I love that. Yeah, the day I've had... He's kicking his feet up on Sheridan's desk. He disappeared. Well, not disappeared, exactly. This weird cult had taken over the place. That's where the czar came in, and either it was gonna kill me or I was gonna kill Id.

[45:44] Yeah, so that was great. 17 is missing. Yeah, so here's the thing. On paper, it was a horror. In reality, it was kind of comedy. Yeah.

[45:55] Slash thriller stuff. I'm a huge, huge fan of old slasher movies. Friday the 13th. Yeah. Sleepaway Camp. Like all, you know, Nightmare on Elm Street is one of my favorite film series of all time. I love it. and uh to to take your metaphor of goofy horror right you get into nightmare elm street three and forward because the first and second ones tried to be actual horror um and so you have that and then you have like the evil dead series that's a really good example of goofy horror and the thing is in in both of those they're goofy but there's also horror yeah like this there was There was no, the intent, like you said, on paper, the intent was horror, but wow. I didn't enjoy it much the first time. This time, I'm kind of with the community and like, that is the hottest steaming pile of garbage. And I am so curious what kind of direction Robert Englund got, because what was that? Everything else in the episode was fantastic. It's great. It's really, really good. And if you can take the other with the hugest grain of salt, even if you're going, what was that? Again, not taking it too seriously. Actually, don't take it seriously at all.

[47:08] You know, this is like, this is like, remember when Garibaldi had the whole thing with the post office guy? Yeah. Take that storyline and give it like 10 more minutes. And this is what you get. Except Garibaldi is the Zarg in that story. Because the real story is over here.

[47:26] With Neroon and Lynn and Marcus. Honestly? Again, retitle this episode. Finding M. Tilza. Right. Or something like that. You title it something after the other thing and this becomes the B plot instead of the A plot. Nobody minds this episode. Right. This is what I'm going to say with the Zarg storyline. It's world building. We got a little stuff around the station. How it was kind of built and the shortcuts that they took on it. And we get reminded of the belief that we are all manifestations of the universe. Yeah. And honestly, it didn't take a lot of time in the episode. If you went minute for minute as to what the A and B stories are instead of following the title of it, I think that the Minbari stuff, the Ranger stuff, got more time. Yeah, I'm positive it did. In fact, I think we see that a few times here in Babylon 5, where the actual story, the B plot, just because it doesn't have the title, actually gets more screen time. Yeah. Deborah in the Council Chambers chat puts it really well It's convictions, just it's a zarg instead of a bomber Yeah, pretty much Do you hear messages out of this one?

[48:34] I mean, there's, I didn't write it down. I could have the whole thing that Robert England was talking about being parts of the universe, looking for itself, being manifest and, and different here, different people search it out in different ways, right? Here's Robert England and his Pete Jeremiah and all his people. They're searching it out. Dylan and her folks are doing it in a different way. You know? I mean, I guess you have that. No, there's, I mean, honestly, this is one I was so wrapped up in what was going on with Naroon and Marcus. There's a message there. Oh, yeah. Naroon coming in and talking to Marcus at the end, and then Marcus being able to turn it into a joke. And now those two guys are bonded for life. Absolutely. I promise you, Naroon will die for Marcus at this point. Mm-hmm.

[49:18] Yeah. And the thing there is, Naroon stayed true to his values through the whole thing. Yeah. And when he found his values aligned with Marcus's values, everything changed. Yeah. You know? Well, ultimately, what did he need? He needed he needed to know that the people would follow her, frankly, and not him, because he thought he was hot stuff. He thought it was going to be the opposite. They want they want me. They want me. They need they need me on that wall. They want me on that wall. Um, and I have a right to do it. The people that are there actually are going to be going after Dylan. Yeah. And if that's the case, then so be it. And good on him for having the, the, frankly, the humility for being able to accept that as soon as he sees it and not just fight against it. And the fact is he doesn't have to like it. He doesn't have to like it. He clearly does not like it at all. Yeah. But here's the thing, Jeff, and this is where I really want to, unless you have another message you want to talk about, what I really want to do is I want us to just briefly dive into the question with everything we just saw with naroon how is that colored by knowing that the true calling of his heart is religious caste this was the moment he started to realize that like he was true blue warrior caste this whole thing happened and now he's like i don't know that he sees it yet.

[50:38] But it's now it's it's in the open so it's not a secret thing that he's harboring in his heart this whole time this is the thing that sort of sets him on that path that he doesn't actually realize until he's right to go right before he goes into the starfire i think that's how it is yeah because i've said it before the when naroon jumps into that starfire and he has his little.

[51:00] I see now that the true calling of my heart is religious god that's always felt a little goofy to me yes might be because the writing's a little lame might be because the acting was a little overdone maybe like i'm not sure like it would have been better if he just got in there and shut up in my opinion so when i say that that part was goofy folks that's what i'm talking about i the idea that naroon would jump in and sacrifice himself for her and the way he went out that's badass yeah that little line i felt it was unnecessary but if this is the thing that we now have to look at naroon going through a crisis of faith so to speak a crisis an identity crisis and this is the thing that sets him on that path unfortunately it seems to mostly be located just to naroon whereas we would hope it would actually facilitate out towards everybody which it won't Until we get to the Civil War. Brent, part of our job today is to place this in, I'm just going to double down on it. I was wondering what you were going to say. I was really wondering what you were going to say. Or objectively correct. It's objectively correct. I mean, you can't argue with that. Numbers don't lie. There they are. And we're going to put, Grace 17 is missing, amongst those numbers. It's on you today to do that. But I am going to start down at the bottom of our ranking as I list this one. Number 15, we have convictions. And 14, walkabout.

[52:27] 13, Exogenesis, and an unprecedented moment above those is a late delivery from Avalon. And at number 11, we've got Ceremonies of Light and Dark. So Brent, where are you going to objectively place Grace 17 is Missing? Well, it's better than Convictions. It did Convictions better than Convictions. It was more compelling to me. Particularly because of the true a plot and the thing is i have to take the episode as a whole which means i have to account for the gray 17 material but i also have to account for the delen the naroon the marcus stuff and that stuff was so good jeff you are too low in the episodes that you pick this is an episode that for me i'm gonna place this somewhere jeff but i'm putting a little asterisk by it okay it's good i'm gonna place it yeah i'm putting this i'm putting a little asterisk by it because we are now pretty far away from the last time we watched this episode so recency bias is in play here okay i am placing this episode above a day in the strife and below voices of authority okay um because i like this in my mind right now i like the the stuff that happens with naroon and marcus is so good it's so good i even think it might be a little low right now because of that. The other stuff, frankly, even though I have to take it into account, I can just sort of discount it. It doesn't even blip on my radar for the episode.

[53:52] This stuff, this core piece, I mean, quite frankly, take out the Gray 17 stuff and just have this episode and put any other old B plot in. We might be looking up around the five and six range, but we do have to account for the Gray 17 stuff. So it's going to drop it down some. Okay. But that's where I'm placing this in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking with a little asterisk. That's fair. That's fair. And Suzanne in the chat reminds us of the words of JMS. It's three quarters of a good episode. I think it is. I think this is a much better episode than people give it credit for. That's going to do it. Brent for Gray 17 is missing. Next week, we're watching an episode called And the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place. You remember what you thought about this one the first time around? One, I remember the title was really long. Yes. The title's just really long. Yeah, what I remember about this?

[54:45] Yep. What an awful way to go. Yeah. But it's Rifa's death. It's Londo and Jakar teaming up for the first time in God knows how long. It's stuff happens. And what I do remember, and I remember thinking, and I think it was this episode, it might be something different. That it tried to do the same thing that TKO did where you had the fight and then you had the Ivanova stuff. And what I say is I look at that, one is a physical manifestation of the internal struggle that's going on with the other, which makes that beautiful to me. I feel like they tried to do that with this episode, that whatever's happening in the church service with the singing and all of that is somehow some sort of a manifestation of the grittiness of what's actually happening. Or it's held in juxtaposition. It's that there's something about the way that those two scenes are cut back and forth in that piece. But I, even at this point, I'm struggling to like put my finger on exactly what it is. Like a TKO did it better, but I feel like they tried to do that. But still the way that he, the way that Jakar turns around and walks away, doesn't even get his hands dirty.

[55:55] It's so bad, eh? Oh, my gosh. It's a good episode. This is a good episode. And Londo, man, I think what we see with Londo is a pure, unmitigated viciousness. Yeah. That I don't know that we've actually seen. Not to this point. No. Because this wasn't... He didn't get his shadow friends to come help. He put the... Jeff, what's more dangerous than being trapped in a room, or than having a room, uh being having a locked room full of angry narn uh a locked room with angry narn and one of them has the key yeah rifa gets in a locked room with a bunch of angry narn how about you what did you think of this episode same same i i loved it it was great the thing that stands out for me also was we had the various religious leaders showing up and so there's even some really uh good they didn't get like deep religious examination but i enjoyed the uh respect you know that we saw cross religion, although I do remember Brother Theo getting pretty like, the Catholics, right? You know what I mean?

[56:59] I'm not going to forget that. I'm going to hold that against them for a long time. But yeah, this episode I remember just being awesome. And I'm excited for us to watch it next week and see what we think about it the second time around. Thanks for hanging out with us through this one. We're going to watch this And the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place again next week. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't fit. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss that at all. We'd love to have you there as well. If you want to be a part of our recordings, you can go to our Patreon page, patreon.com slash badnerds. It's in both of the set of show notes, wherever those are. And you can get.

[57:36] Uh access to the unedited stuff you can get access to a whole bunch of other stuff as well, if the calling of your heart isn't religious cast necessarily but is to show some love to the bad nerds you can show that by sharing this show with somebody who might enjoy watching babylon five with a couple of nerds watching it for the second time so with that hey jeff hey jeff hey jeff yeah uh what's uh what's going on you know one of the things i love about the show is we make sure that, I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. You guys get it? The end is missing. The final joke is missing.