Grey 17 is Missing

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five for the very first time. And in it we are taking that analytical lens. We have gained as Star Trek podcasters, and we're applying it right here to Babylon five.

And also just determining how much we really like the.

Jeff: We are Star Trek podcasters, but this is a podcast about Babylon five, not Star Trek. So to keep us honest, we play the rule of three. That means we each get up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek, a piece. That's it. Three one of those, no substitutions, exchanges are refund. Hey

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: we have a five star review.

Oh yes. This is off of Apple Podcasts and I'm giving his name cuz he gave it in the review. His name is Tony

Brent: up, team in.

Jeff: Tony says, A podcast review for the first time. I started a new job a few months ago that brought with it a much longer commute. I figured it'd be a good time to find some podcasts to start listening to.

In my search for a good sci-fi related one, I somehow stumbled on this one about one of my favorite shows ever, Babylon five. I listened to Jeff and Bren's first episode last month, and I was immediately hooked. It's been an absolute joy catching up and reliving this wonderfully complex show through them as they watch it for the first time.

I appreciate that. This is not a Star Trek podcast, but the hosts use that franchise as a springboard to compare and contrast the themes and structure of Babylon five, while respectfully acknowledging that it is its own unique thing. With each episode they critique, they are finding the joy and the warts of the show that I made a point to follow every week, almost 30 years ago.

They love to make predictions about what the next episode will be about and where the storyline is headed. Sometimes I shake my head and laugh at how wrong they are or will be, but other times I get almost as giddy as my friend who danced on stage with Claudia Christian at a sci-fi convention many cycles ago.

When the hosts come really close in their predictions, it's a blast. Jeff and Brent, keep up the excellent work and thank you for giving me and others like me something fun and worthwhile to listen to on my Monday commute to and from work.

Brent: You know what, Jeff? Just for Tony, I want to give Tony's review its own. Oh yeah. Hit that sweet button just for Tony.

Jeff: Oh, yes,

Brent: Absolutely. That was a great review. Tony gets it. So many of you guys out there get it. A few don't and that's okay. But Tony gets it, man. Like to come in and, and you know, Jeff, we had to defend this a lot back in like season two and some during hair season three, but I think most of the people are really kind of settling in that, that, uh, you know, there's, it's not comparing it to Star Trek, it's using the analytical lens.

We gained to Star Trek podcasters to talk about, uh, this show. But we also, as much as we compare it to Star Trek, we also talk about Stargate and we talk about Battlestar Galata and we talk about Star Wars and we talk about Princess Bride and we talk about

Jeff: Three

Brent: Yeah, exactly right. Uh, we, we talk about everything which Firefly, um, all of them.

And. It's, it's, uh, it, it, yeah, it's nice to hear that people understand, because we still see people like, oh, we could compare this show to Star Trek. I'm like, and you know what, you know what I really love? Like I, I've, as we've done this a couple of times, I think this season, like, like particularly when we get down to Deltas and, and star furries, like we're, we're starting to ask the question.

It's not just, okay, how Star Trek is it? And then how much did we like the episode? But it's like, yeah, there's that message, but it did it in a Babylon five way. Like it's doing it in some way. And I, I love getting into those types of conversations as well.

Jeff: Oh, Brent, we have another five star review. Oh, yes. This one's also from Apple Podcasts. D W U 1989 says, Enjoying the Ride. Jeff and Brent bring their love of Star Trek to the world of Babylon five, as they enjoy the Beloved show for the very first time. It's a great listen as they try to tease the Star Trek out of the show and try to pick up on the plot threads that will carry through.

Highly recommend.

Brent: Well, I am, uh, I'm gonna go out on a limb, D w U that you go to Dakota Wesleyan University.

Jeff: Whoa.

Brent: Just gonna throw it out there. I could be right. I'm probably right. I could be way wrong though. Dakota Wesleyan University. That's, that's this. This person's a student or faculty? Or some other connection out there to it,

Jeff: They're the person, the person who graduated in 89. They own that it's theirs.

Brent: right.

Jeff: Well, listen, Brent, one of the cool things about our podcast, Babylon five for the first time and the show itself, Babylon five, is that. It's set up in seasons, right? And at the end of each season we like to look back and see all of the incredible things that we nailed, like Sinclair being valin and all the things that we missed.

I really can't think of any because we kind of nail it.

Brent: Anna Sheridan's being a space zombie.

Jeff: She's a space zombie. She's a morden. We'll get, yeah, it's gonna happen. But we have this fun show every at the end of each season when we do that. And in that show, we give away some super cool stuff. And this time around, we're giving away 3D printed star theories from our incredible friend Wash who on his own, out of the generosity and kindness of his heart created.

If you're on our YouTube channel, you can see Brent holding it up right now. Now he's got. But we got two. So what you need to do is you need to review, go write a review for our podcast, take a screenshot of it, send it into us at Babylon five first gmail.com, or tag it on Twitter at Babylon first, or frankly, we also see these, so if you just do the review, that'll, that'll do.

But we are gonna pick two people in that wrap up to receive one of these star theories.

Brent: Now, I, I will say this, Jeff, while absolutely not necessary to win, it would not hurt your chances out there. If you have already sent in a review, because we're, we're backdating this, anyone who's ever done a review is eligible to win. Right. Jeff?

Jeff: A hundred percent

Brent: Like this isn't just about getting new reviews. This is, this is for, honestly, it's a way, it's a way to reward those who took an extra step to shout out the show.

Right. So, uh, at any point if you, uh, have sent in a review, that is enough to make you enter in, but I'm just saying it couldn't hurt your chances to go take a screenshot and email it or tweet it to us anyway, , no matter how long it's been out there, just saying

Jeff: So if you're on the fence, God, I like this show. It's pretty great. Or man, I hate this show and I just can't stop watching, you know, listening to see what they do. Go write that review. You don't even have to give us a five star. It can be one. We got a couple one star reviews. It's got some twos, threes, we run the gamut.

Cool. We just love hearing from you. Right. It'd be

Brent: the five. I just wanna be clear, we prefer the

Jeff: Like it's just like sending us with the screenshots, not necessarily gonna help your chances. Five star reviews, none us are gonna help your chances. But if you do happen to write a five star review, you know what you do get. Oh yes.

Brent: Just like Tony

Jeff: Right, exactly. Boom. Oh, it's been a long time.

Brent: I just, you know, it felt like a good transition coming out of the, uh, the, the, the season wrap up giveaway, hype. Hey Jeff,

Jeff: Hey,

Brent: you know, we love playing games here on the show. Lots of games. Lots of games that we do. One of those games we like to do comes at the end of the show where we look at next week's episode.

We try to guess what next week's episode is gonna. This is frankly one of the things we hear from our listeners out there about, one of the things I love the most, I mean, even, even uh, Tony in our review was like, I love listening to them predict what the next episode's gonna be and what's gonna happen, because they're oftentimes hilariously wrong.

And this is the part where we go back and look at what we predicted. This episode was gonna be last week and decide, or just see how hilariously wrong we were. So, Jeff, do you remember what you predicted Gray 17 is missing was gonna be about, and how close were you?

Jeff: So I thought that Gray 17 was gonna be a, you know, a sector or a part of the gray sector that was gonna be, they were gonna fake that it was kind of destroyed or whatever, and oh, it's gone, it's missing. So they could repurpose it as a ranger training facility, figured that with Sinclair being gone with all the strife on Minbar, they were gonna move it to Babylon five.

I also thought that they were gonna have this, uh, this, the facility be run by Marcus. So it was a ranger oriented episode that had nothing to do with the Gray 17 piece, and Marcus was certainly in it. And we definitely touched on this strife from Minbar. So I, I get credit in, in, in Anne in the spirit of sort of a sense, I

Brent: I'll give you half credit on that. You, you named the elements. Well, I, I had one of two things is like you, I said that it was gonna be a section of the ship that, uh, was missing, like, literally just gone, um, perhaps like blipping in and out, like as a leftover effect from last week. From, from the, from the, the thing, although that was Babylon four, not Babylon five, but still weird stuff happens.

You know, somebody brought a time thing on and it, it made something weird. It was gonna be something like that. Or, I thought that Gray 17 could be code for a secret agent. Like a Gray Council's secret agent, which until they reminded us in this episode that the Gray Council has actually been disbanded. I was like, well, that's probably not it then, but that's what I thought.

So I, I got Gray 17 and section is literally missing. Uh, it wasn't Blipping though, and there was absolutely no secret agent. So it for

Jeff: it was a, it was a very apparent agent. There was no secrecy at.

Brent: yes. Well, Jeff, for those of you, well, Jeff, for those out there who are listening to us who haven't seen this episode in a while, or maybe they've never actually seen this episode and they're just listening to us anyway, which, cool.

Uh, why don't you tell the folks out there at home what this episode was actually about?

Jeff: After all of the events of the last two episodes, which covers like a thousand years in story. So a little bit, little bit happened in those We're basically back to business as usual on Babylon five, they're all in. They're all in on the telepathic approach to taking down the shadows and are hosting an open casting call.

They're putting ads on Indeed and LinkedIn jobs, even buying a bunch of Facebook and Instagram ads. Everybody is applying for this thing, but it's exhausting work. So Sheridan and Ivanova decide to find Franklin and see if he still has his files on the Underground Railroad. You know the ones he was apparently keeping on his main station computer.

Well, he still has a backup of them. Mal least he agrees to let Ivanova have them as long as they just leave me alone. I said, leave me alone. I mean it guys, I mean it. Stop talking to me. Well that be fair. I mean the show's not soft balling this addiction thing and he is going through some really tough withdrawals.

So despite the, the voice there, grace, grace is offered with Sinclair gone, like completely gone. I mean, they don't even say his name in this one. Like he's just Ranger one, ranger one. But with him gone, they need a new Ranger one. And most people, or some people want that to be dalen. But in the time leading up to her ceremony to name her as Ranger one Naroon shows up.

We remember Naroon, right? Well, he accuses her of power mongering and low key threatens to kill her. So he in the warrior cast can have the Rangers just like they had a thousand years ago. And what a day all of this led to. Marcus was assaulted after he challenged Naroon. Then someone got into the ranger ceremony, which was Naroon after he beat down and maybe even killed Marcus, where Naroon ended up pledging his support to Dalen.

After much activity, he then visits Marcus in med lab and they connect warrior to warrior. The ceremony was beautiful though, even with the extracurricular violence. Kar was even there, but. No Kosh, maybe. Maybe this Kosh isn't wise to the Rangers. Right. Also, there was no Marcus at the ceremony. He was off fighting in Naroon.

That's the extracurricular violence. And there was no Gu Baldy there either. Well, where was he? Well, first there was this missing maintenance man. Only he wasn't missing, he was killed by Aza. But, but I'm getting ahead of myself. That was after Gar Baldi found out that the entire 17th floor of gray sector had completely disappeared.

Well, not disappeared. Exactly. This weird cult had taken over the place. See, and there was a dummy that shot tranquilizers out of its eyes. It was very strange, but it was all supposed to be perfect. That was the thing about it. And, and there wasn't a way out, but there was, except it was spiritual and you had to die a perfect death.

That's where the ARD came in and either it was gonna kill me or kill Kara Baldi, or he was gonna kill it. And am I going too fast for you, because I think that covers it. Print. How did you first react to Gray? 17 is missing.

Brent: Okay, so Jeff, I have a confession to make.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Um, you know, we, we do our best to keep this show. Not the show, but to keep us, you and me specifically, spoiler free.

Jeff: Oh yeah. We work very hard at

Brent: try very hard sometimes it doesn't always happen. Sometimes stuff slips through the cracks. Now, I don't know if you've heard about this, but I heard not too terribly long ago that the episode titled Gray 17 is Missing. And the reason why that episode stuck out to me is because we have our friends over at the Gray 17 Podcast who, you know, for you and me, like, why did they name their show, gray 17 Podcast? I don't know. We'll probably find out. So I've, you know, that's kind of been keyed into my brain, like I'm listening for what Gray 17 is.

You know what I mean? Which I have some questions for Scott still after watching this episode, Scott, I. We gotta talk, uh, spoiler free, but , it's, I just don't understand, but whatever. So I had heard that Gray 17 is missing, was actually considered a really bad episode. So bad in fact that j m s has apologized for it.

Jeff: what,

Brent: I know. I didn't know what for, I'm not sure if it was like the whole episode itself or just one aspect of it. Like I, like, I don't know. But what I knew, what I heard was Gray 17 is missing is a bad episode in the middle of a lot of good stuff. And j m s was so embarrassed by it that he apologized for it.

Jeff: Really?

Brent: I came into this episode with expectations that were solo that may be cu I say that to say that may color everything I'm about to say.

Jeff: Okay. That's fair.

Brent: I don't understand why JMS would've apologized for this episode.

Jeff: Oh

Brent: Is this a top five episode or even a top 10 episode? No. But is it a bottom five episode? No. Is it a bottom 10 episode? Maybe. But there's only 22 episodes in a season, so you're talking 11 and 11 on top half and bottom half. And keep in mind that that season three has been a really, really strong season. You know? So could it find itself in the bottom half? Yeah, it could, but I don't, I don't think, I don't know that it's, that it was that bad. I think you take this episode and you place it in season two or season one, and it's easily a top half of the season type of an episode.

Um, the whole Gray 17 thing, the, the namesake of this episode, the za. The cult, I want to call it what it was. It was goofy and it was goofy as hell. It, it was just, why, why is this here? You could have cut that part of the show out and the sh it wouldn't have made a difference to the rest of the episode. The part about Dalen taking over the Rangers, the part about Naroon threatening to kill her, and then Marcus coming to defend and then, um, uh, uh, Naroon having a face-to-face with Marcus in the hospital, and that changing who Naroon was as a person. That was so good and it was so masterfully done. So maybe I was just braced for this whole episode to be like really, really bad, and I found this episode rather compelling.

Now, I have been trained by Star Trek and other 90 sci-fi shows to kind of. You sort of look over the bad a little bit, you know? And I know people are out there. Oh yeah. But one of those, these two, okay, listen, , you find the gold in, in, in, in as much as you can. It doesn't mean it's a great episode, but there was some stuff about this episode that I really liked and I found very, very compelling and enough to be like, I, I would absolutely watch this episode without, without fault.

Like, I would be like, oh yeah, this episode's not cool. You know, I like this episode. Um, this episode, Remi, and this may be getting a little bit too much into the other side of it, but this episode reminds me in many ways of the episode, TKO o from season one.

Jeff: Really.

Brent: It's one plot is very compelling. The other plot is just stupid and goofy. I'm not sure that the two plots of this episode work together as a metaphor for each other the way that it did back in t k O, but hear me out, Jeff. Is there something about the cult being trapped in a level with no way out, but death being a metaphor for how Naroon comes into this episode trapped by his own racism and his own superiority and there's no way out from that, but death.

And then there's, uh, in this case we have Marcus whose loyalty and self-sacrifice and his honor as a warrior, shakes naroon out of that complacency, like Gar Baldy shook Jeremiah and all of those guys and found a way out that wasn't death and maybe gives, am I reading too much into it? Absolutely. I probably am because I'm a Star Trek podcaster and that's what we do as we read way too much into stuff. Was this what JMS intended when he laid out this episode? Maybe. And maybe the reason he apologizes cuz the, it wasn't as clear, you know, the fact we saw him do it in tko just means to me, He's going to do it more than just once because that, that those two plots in tko o were so masterfully woven together.

Jeff: Well, we saw it in the second, I forget which episode, but there was an episode in the second season. I, I think it was the second season that did the

Brent: And you're right. I, I remember being an episode that did that, but it, I don't remember which one it was. This might be that episode for the season. Maybe it didn't work as well, but I still thought that the episode was, was fine, good enough, and especially where my expectations were so low. I, I liked it better than I thought I would.

Jeff, how about you?

Jeff: So I, one of the first thoughts I have is throughout our journey on Babylon five, we have sparked tremendous debate around our viewing order. Right. People have a lot of feelings on viewing order. John Gregorian with the Trek Profiles podcast gave us. His definitive viewing order list. We committed before day one that this is how we're gonna watch the show.

And time and time again, we, we have defended that point and I am so thankful that's what we did here because the, um, I don't know which viewing order, but the viewing order many people were recommending was War Without N one, war Without N two. Walkabout Gray 17 is missing. I think having Walkabout before the WWE e episodes made a ton of sense with the new KO and the stuff and whatever, and then slide us into this big thing.

The thing is, if we had watched the WWE e episodes and then come into Walkabout and then come into Gray 17, we liked Walkabout, right? It was, okay, this, it's okay. It's got, this has some serious high point. I mean, I loved everything about the Minbar and Ranger stuff that happened. But to have done walkabout in this together would've been a serious letdown after war without it.

Now, I say that we haven't seen the next episode, so we, you know, maybe it may still be in for that, that ride, but I don't think that's the case, that cult stuff. I, I want desperately to believe what you're saying because then it makes it mean something. It was so bad, and I, and I felt bad for Robert England.

I love Robert England. He's so good and people know him as Freddy Krueger, right. Just hilarious and snarky and evil and all this stuff. What I am a hundred percent sure, members of our community out there, remember Robert England from is being Willy. V the, the kindhearted innocent visitor who came and joined with the resistance and then helped support the fifth column.

He was great in that, but he had this, uh, this timidity that we never saw in Freddie Krueger that really shown through in, in his Jeremiah character. Um, I thought it was great. I thought he was good for what he was supposed to be. Um, kind of arch, kind of over the top, but also I felt like that was sort of the tenor they were going for a little bit, but it didn't make any sense.

The Zark was one. The, I think that the, the, the big organic tech monster in infection looked more believable and menacing than this arg. That thing was, Hey, do we have some random rubber laying around that we can just slap on a dude? What?

Brent: you know, you know, I mean, okay, the, the seasons of Babylon five are supposed to be like in order of a year. Like they go like from January to December, right? And so this late in the year, we've gotta be around like Halloween, right? So those Spirit Halloween stores are open. You know, you just go down to the local spirit, Halloween, grab you a costume.

Here we go,

Jeff: You know, they've got one on the Zocalo. Yeah.

Brent: ready? Let's go

Jeff: That helps everything make more sense. But, uh, I liked the Franklin, the fact that Franklin is actually experiencing like, withdrawals and, and so I, I liked that. Um, but, but Brent, I loved, I loved the Menari stuff in this. And Naroon, I've, I've got a lot, I, I got a lot to talk about Naroon when we dive into this.

It was, it was really, that was really well done. That, that whole

Brent: yeah, yeah. So, you know, again, I don't know what j m s was apologizing for. Maybe he was apologizing for the zark. Like,

Jeff: he should

Brent: fine. You know, and, and like I said, I

Jeff: Or for the stupid gun, I'm sorry. Let's, let's just go there, right? The st the, so in, in the early in the episode right when Garabaldi and Zack are hanging out, which by the way, how cool is it that Garabaldi and Zack are cool

Brent: Right,

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: know, you know what? I need to complete that. I need Lou. Remember Lou,

Jeff: Lou. Whatever happened to Lou?

Brent: I think he got replaced by Zach. He got recast,

Jeff: he's probably looking around and he is just like, this, this things aren't gonna go well

Brent: right? He's on, he's on. You know what it is? He's on Delta shift.

Jeff: Right? Yep. Babylon five. Oh. Previously on Babylon five, let me get myself a clean one of those. I hit the, just like the maintenance guy who got pulled down, who had a prototype version of the Road Caster Pro, uh,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I'm having a hard time hitting the right buttons over

Brent: Okay. Let, let's talk about that. Okay. Let, let's talk about the cult. Let's talk about the Gray 17 piece and then be done with it, because the real meat of this really is over in Dro. Okay. The dude's sitting there in this little shaft going, um, I can't find any electrical thing. Oh, look, there it is.

About that time, maybe a minute before that, or, or just a few seconds before I saw the name Robert England and I, and then, and then this thing happened, and I went, this is a horror episode. This is, and you know how sci-fi does horror, Jeff? It's not good.

Jeff: No.

Brent: never good. So I was ready for it. I was, I was the whole thing.

I was like, let's go. Let's, I'm, I'm here for it. Let's, let's just, let's get stupid with this. Let's go. And boy, and when it sucked him down, I was like, this is Freddie Krueger. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. It was so long before we got back down here. To the gray 17 stuff. Now, the pistol thing, I 100% hear what you're saying about the pistol thing.

From a narrative standpoint. You had to have that so he could have the bullets later. That's all

Jeff: thought it was cool. We, last week we talked a lot about subverting expectations, and I like when they're playing with the rifle, the, what do they call it? A slug, slug thrower or something they called it. I'm like, oh, we have a literal checkoffs gun right here. , like, look at we're playing with, but no, no.

They went a whole different route. It was checkoffs, ammo,

Brent: right.

Jeff: where he is like, I've, I just happened to have a couple loose bullets here

Brent: And I can turn 'em into actual bullets with hammer and steam pipes or

Jeff: so you cannot do that. When, when Captain Kirk was on CSUs three fighting a gorn in arena, he got gunpowder and he got it into a little bamboo shoot and he blasted gorn in the face.

Highly effective, right? This

was

Brent: would've blown up in his face in real life. But go ahead.

Jeff: but this, that's what would've happened with this. It was a steam pipe. So he throws, throws these bolts in the steam pipe and then holds it up. Do you know, let me, let me, I know you know this, but for our listeners out there, let me just take you down a short little physics lesson.

When super hot steam pushes from the back end of a tube or a pipe, it super heats the first thing it touches, which is the bullet That's. Back. So either it blows up in the tube and blasts garibaldis face into oblivion, or it shoots all the bullets out at once. And actually none of those things would happen because that steam didn't have the pressure nor the temperature to push a b.

That was the, that was the dumbest put together. That was, I mean, that costume aside, Brent, that that, oh my, what

Brent: You're not, you're not wrong. But at what point did you look at that and go, this is serious right now.

Jeff: I, I don't

Brent: saw, you heard, you saw Robert England is in this is in this, this episode. You saw dude sitting in the little man trap thing or the little manhole thing and get sucked down. At what point did you think this was gonna be serious?

Like, at some point you just got, look, I'm gonna go get some popcorn and we're gonna embrace the cheese, man, let's just go, I'm gonna go with him. And by the way, the other half of that episode was just amazing. Okay. So he gets pulled down. They, Jeff, I freaked out. It was, it was my favorite part of the whole episode.

It's the first time we meet Jeremiah, Robert England, right? And he's there in the pulpit and he's talking, and he, he's starting to, to, to monologue. And he's not making any sense whatsoever the way cult leader does. And, and guys, if you're an audio listener to this show, I beg you, please go to the YouTube channel, go to our video on this week and go to the 40 minute and 25 second spot of this video, because I'm gonna show Robert England leans in and he holds his hand up and he just puts his hand in that position and it's the Freddy Hand.

Like, I could see the knives coming out and he just, and he looks out here and it's the hand, I lost it because it's Freddy Krueger and oh my God, it was so good. It was so good. And he made no sense. And then Gar Baldi and, and he, you know, gray 17 is missing. Gray 17 didn't look like it was missing, and it went 16 double floor down.

And then the next, when it opened, it didn't say 18, it said 17, I think. Right. So Gray 17 was there.

Jeff: it said 17 on both floors. So there's 16. 17, 17. Someone just rigged it so that the went past the first 17. What,

what?

Brent: Yeah. None of that made Jeff, none of that made sense. And, and here's the thing, I didn't care. I just didn't care. I was, I was in it for the B rated horror film that this was in that part. You get that Dum. That comes in and turns and starts talking to you, and then it shoots you in a dart. Jeff, I hope, I hope to God that j m s has a, a, a credit, a writing credit, a producing credit, uh, uh, story inspired by for every single saw film that is out there. You know what I mean? Because that thing was the origin of Jigsaw.

Jeff: Totally. Yeah. With the eye, I mean the eye and the ev.

Brent: That Oh my gosh, that thing was so creepy. And, and you're right. You get to the Zg and Yeah, we're Colts. We're gonna go be eaten by the Zark, and we're just gonna give ourselves up to the zg and he's gonna do some stupid whatever to kill the Zg.

Turns out you just gotta shoot em with a bullet and it only has to hit once, and then they're gonna go take his pulse . And it was just, it was so awful. But it was, it was just so fun. Like, I don't, I can't, I can't blame it like,

Jeff: And I can't, here's me not, not letting, I can't, I can't suspend my disbelief that, I mean, I can't, I, Jeremiah totally suspended my disbelief. Nothing he did made sense or was whatever, but it was perfect for that character, right? Like I got it. England nailed it. All of his followers looking at him, nodding on, you know, the whole thing.

Great. Awesome. All in for that. Here's where it all falls apart for me though. Once we know about the Zark, I'm like, okay, so the Zark can reach up and pull maintenance dude down through the little manhole thing or whatever. Why can't he take two inches further and just climb out

Brent: Right,

Jeff: and just be in the station

Like, why is he staying on that

Brent: Well, because he keeps getting fed by the cult folks down there in the bottom, uh, you know. Now why's he gotta go? His food supply's right there, right

Jeff: just like, wow.

Brent: right there.

Jeff: But you know, some cool stuff though. I noticed when Garabaldi went down. From the, the, the tranquilizer, jigsaw guy was there, these old newspapers stacked up some old universe. Today's, did you see those?

Brent: I did not.

Jeff: So it went down, I paused the second time I watched it, I paused on it to look, there's one stack that was on the, the screen left that said, um, Santiago reelected.

So these are newspapers that would've come in early season one, right? I forget if that wasn't midnight on the firing line that he was elected, but right after maybe. And then just next to Garibaldis, head on, on screen, right? Uh, there was a stack that said, um, new captain appointed to Babylon five. So that would've been right at the top of season two.

So Jeremiah talked about like how being into the, the recycling stuff so they could, you know, probably handle their waste and get some food and whatever. But like, there's also some mechanism where they're, you know, getting. News and probably gear and stuff like that too. It's me just trying to piece together like what in this makes any level of sense.

Brent: of it made sense. But that's the thing. Like, but I did, but I didn't care. I didn't care because it was, uh, honestly, the other half of the episode was so compelling that I was like, whatever. Like they should have named it something. They should have named it.

There's a new ranger one in town. And it would've, it would've, the rest of this would've, you would've just written it off as a stupid B plot. Not

Jeff: Yeah. And just, and it's all fine. And I loved, I mean, I stole almost word for word for my recap what Garabaldi said when he sat down to tell Sheridan what happened. And like in my head I'm like, oh, that was stupid. Garibaldis line delivery of that whole thing makes it all worthwhile. Like that was

Brent: right. Um, okay. Just a couple of things that I thought was kind of funny. Uh, first of all, dude's calm, the, the maintenance dude's calm is a

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: It's like, is like, I have my little mechanical pencil here and I'm talking into my mechanical pencil, and that's my communicator. Oh yeah. It. . It was like they, it's like they went to go shoot the, the, the episode and they're like, wait, we can't find that prop.

We can't find that prop and somebody here use this. Just, just, just use this. It's fine. Nobody will know. Nobody will know. Um, I love that. Uh, the, oh, uh, uh, uh, to go back to the, to the, the floor, the missing floor. Gray 17 is a, is a floor. Um, so it literally was a sta a section of the station that was quote unquote missing that.

Okay, listen, uh, it, it, it's missing like the chamber of secrets is missing. People know it's there. You have to, you can't be that stupid about it. Okay? But here's the thing. This is a true story. Did you know that in South Korea buildings do not have a fourth floor,

Jeff: A fourth floor. Mm-hmm.

Brent: get into an elevator.

There's the lobby, there's the second floor, there's the third floor, there's the fifth floor. Sixth floor, seventh floor, all the way up.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: They do not have a fourth floor because the number four in Korea is considered bad luck. So nobody goes onto the fourth floor so they don't have a fourth floor.

Jeff: So like many buildings here in the states that don't have a 13th floor, but still Totally. I mean, if you're on the 14th floor, you know what's

Brent: Yeah. And, and I mean, and that's the thing, like, I'm not gonna say that you're gonna ever go into a building and it's not gonna have a fourth floor, but there's no fourth floor. Like, it just, it just doesn't exist. So that, that just reminded me, and I know that having lived there, so that was, that's, that's firsthand information, not I read it somewhere on Facebook.

Jeff: What were your thoughts on Franklin and that whole scene with a vva trying to get the, the files from

Brent: I, I, well, you know, you said it was so good to kind of actually see him, like going through the DTS on this , you know, the detoxes and whatever.

Jeff: good right. To be clear, but I just, it's a, it's a mid nineties and they were softball and

Brent: I'm, I'm glad that they showed him going through it because when he went on Walkabout and he was not going through it, it kind of upset me,

Jeff: Same.

Brent: you know? Uh, and, and they even, they even gave you a reason why they said, Hey, listen, it takes a while for stems to get out of your system. It just takes an extra, extra bit of time.

I was like, okay, cool. At least you address it. Um, that part was fine. I, I wasn't sure they could have written around that. They didn't need to have Steven Biggs come in to do this one little scene for that week. I like, did, was it, was it a Clark thing where he just shows up out of contractual obligation? you know,

Jeff: like, we gotta pay you so much. So get in the

Brent: Um, I, I mean, but it, it was a, it was a relatively small part of the episode.

It made sense, the idea that they were trying to gear up for the shadow war by, by contacting, uh, these, these teles and bringing them back to the station, bringing back the idea of the Underground railroad that used to run through the station. Um, I, I liked that part of the episode. Just on a continuity level.

Jeff: You know what? I just thought when you were saying that, I don't remember dude's name, but the, the telepath that was buddies with Jason Iron Hart, that kinda led,

Brent: Yeah. The dude from like Switzerland or whatever.

Jeff: yeah. With the accent and everything. This is the, he has that very, very unique look. We're, this is, we're, we're gonna see him again.

This is my, this is my longer term prediction. We're gonna see him again, and he and Ster are going to have to work together to go accomplish a thing against the shadows. There's gonna be an episode with the two of them, like having to get through their stuff. I look f i I very much look forward to those two coming together.

I hope that happens.

Brent: I do not think that will happen, but if it does, I'm for it. I'm all like, cuz it, it's a, it's a great narrative piece, which

Jeff: Don't crush my dreams, Brent. Don't crush them. I have so few left.

Brent: That's one of those things, Jeff, people Arthur are like, well, gosh, you're gonna be disappointed. Or they're like, oh my God, he just nailed it, you know?

Um,

Jeff: like sci-fi from the nineties. I'm used to disappointment. It's fine. I can . I want things. It's

Brent: Uh, to go back to the, to the Franklin thing, you referenced it a little bit in your, uh, in your recap, but he kept his files on the main computer,

Jeff: What?

Yeah. What

Brent: work computer. I, what did you label it under here? Illegal stuff that I'm involved in. Is it on there? But did you catch the code name of the file for the Underground Railroad?

The code name is Harriet.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: That was cool.

Jeff: Well, one, it was awesome, but also it's literally the same as being like, oh, don't go into my tax documents file. There's nothing, there's nothing there, mom, that you need to see. Why is your tax document file one and a half terabytes what's in there?

Brent: You got some videos. Um, but I mean, and for those of you out there who were like, I don't know, or maybe you are not from the United States and you don't understand this particular part of our history, um, back when the awful, awful, awful thing of slavery was around and existed 150 years ago now-ish, Jeff, somewhere around there, there was a lady named Harriet Tubman, who was a former slave who escaped to freedom, but she continually came back into slave states to help lead.

Uh, current slaves, two Freedom in the North and using a thing called an Underground Railroad. So the fact his Underground Railroad, the file name was Harriet Harriet Tubman, uh, that's the connection. And, and I just, it was a cool, like, they didn't, they didn't shine this big bright spotlight on it, but it, it was, it was a neat little connection.

I liked it. I

Jeff: If you didn't know, you'd just be like, oh, okay. That's the name of the file. If you know, you're like, that is beautiful. That is awesome.

Brent: Well, well done j m s for writing that in, um, Garibaldi in the elevator

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: he's going through and he's doing the little counting thing. I thought that was a brilliant way of doing it. I never would've thought to do that. And honestly, I don't care. But you're telling me nobody riding that elevator was like, huh, it's just a little bit longer between 16 and uh, 17.

Like that, that

Jeff: a piece too, former military and, and, and again, I'm only speaking from my experience, but like when you're on a boat and in a way Babylon five is a ship, you know, it's out there in space or space or whatever. It's a it space. It's one of the things I loved, one of the reasons I chose to serve on a submarine, it's the closest thing we can get to a spaceship.

You know, that's out doing stuff, but you know, everything. About that. I mean, it doesn't matter what your job is. You know all the levels, you know where all the valves are, you know where all this stuff is. It's just part of the job. And oh, we, oh, they messed up. I mean, it says 2020 decks, but there's only 19.

What about the other sectors? Are they missing a floor? Because like, why only this one and a again, it just, I think to your point, it can be a whole lot of fun. As long as you don't think, I mean, don't even start almost thinking about anything, then that whole thing can be

Brent: just, just go with it. Just freaking go with it. Um,

Jeff: he kept, he, he went back to talking about his walkabout.

You know, I gotta finish my walkabout. I just gotta find myself sit down. Wasn't that the point of the singer lady? Like wasn't that like the visualization of his

Brent: that's what I thought it was. I 100% thought that that was, and then he skulks off after, after the episode. I, by the way, you, you said this earlier, um, talking about the, the viewing order. I 100% get why people would want you to put walk about in, and then Gray 17 is missing just for that one little connection because it, it makes the time go by a, a little bit easier.

I actually appreciated the, the dis the distance because it made, it, it made it feel like his walkabout was actually taking a very long time,

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . It's

Brent: and Right. And I don't, I don't know how the timeline of the station overlaps with all of this, but it, it, it allowed that to sit into it, it made it feel better to me.

Jeff: Yeah. I just, because, because our community would expect me to, you know, feel some sorrow and sympathy for him in his, in his detox time and whatever, just to prove that I have none and I still don't like Dr. Franklin at all. Brent, this was serious narcissist behavior from him. Like wildly toxic. Wildly unhealthy.

Like he's gonna throw that kind of fit for, for one, for a friend needing help, just to give out critical information that could literally save the universe, possibly. You know, it's like, Hey, this thing buddy that can save billions. Well, I don't feel good. Yeah. And, and also the fact that , like this is all for information from him running a wildly illegal operation that Sheridan and Nirvana were like, Hey dude, it's cool.

It's like they gave him a pass and now he's getting all up in their stuff for at, I don't know. I just, mm. People desperately want me. I don't, I don't even know if they want me to, like Franklin. I think what they want me to do is admit I'm wrong, but he keeps proving I'm right.

Brent: the only, the only thing that I can do to play devil's advocate and come to Steven's defense here is one, when you're going through dts like that, you're not nice. You don't really know what you're saying or, or care, you know, you're just kind of in your own thing. The other thing that I will say is, is from a narrative standpoint, a production standpoint, this also could be the, Hey, here's why you're not gonna see him for an episode or two, because he just told you, get outta my face, you know, and he's off making a movie, or his wife just had a baby and he's taking some time off of the show or whatever, whatever reason.

He's not like in the main part of the show. They just gave you the reason for him to not be there.

Jeff: Yeah, that makes sense.

Brent: So, I think we gotta talk about Naroon and Delin and that whole situation cuz, because frankly that was the meat of this episode.

Jeff: This is the show, right?

Brent: so Naroon comes in and, and actually one of the first things that I noted when he came in and he talked to Delin was it confirmed that the gray counsel is completely disbanded, which honestly I had both forgotten about.

And I wasn't sure if the actions actually meant there is no more gray council

Jeff: Yeah. I remembered it had happened, but I was like, it, it happened, right? They walked out and we haven't gotten any

Brent: Be because she said disband the council and follow me. And like half of 'em followed and one person grabbed somebody else's shoulder and they're like, ah, get ready for me. And they, they went on. So, you know, this is a confirmation that yes, that happened.

There is no more great council. What does this mean for the government of men? This has been a while now. So what's going on? Is there a civil war brewing between the cast? They, they seeded that possibility in this episode that if something happens, this could erupt in a civil war on Minbar. Oh my gosh.

What an awful time to have a civil war come to Minbar.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Um, also the need for a Newin,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: which is apparently Dylan, uh

Jeff: Or David, I'm not gonna let it go. Like

they, they, yeah,

You don't drop the kid in the kid's name without him having some sort of a destiny.

Brent: right. Um, Naroon had this line though that I just found absolutely disgusting. He said,

Jeff: Just one. Just one,

Brent: but it's the one that I wrote down. He said, he talking specifically about the Rangers, but he's talking about Minbar society as a whole. At the same time, he said to dilute their purity by allowing the humans.

To enter in or mix in, or whatever his exact word was. I was like, wow. Wow.

Jeff: up with what he was saying when he kicked Glenn off the council is the, uh, you know, I, I remember my comments around that. Were all around like dudes, all racial purity, like that's his thing. But I think not, not to go to the end of that yet though, but I think it makes the end of this hit that much harder that they had him be so explicit about it.

In this episode

Brent: sure. And I mean, and it's backed up. There was an episode back in season two, I don't remember the name of it, but, uh, where we, like Sheridan was set up as, as a dude who killed somebody. And there was one of Lanier's own castmates, or

Jeff: The house, the third house of

Brent: Chomo. Yeah. His, his Cho Domo mate was like the guy. And, and he was just like, I'm not even recognizing Dylan as a person anymore.

You know, and, and so that this has certainly been established that this is something about Mumbar. Uh, uh, culture. One thing they also said was, no mbar has killed e killed another in over a thousand years. Well, that immediately now tells us Sinclair Valen since he became a thing, no Mbar has killed each other without a great council, which has also existed for the last thousand years. I mean, Jeff, are we looking at the preci? Are we standing on the precipice of a mumbar civil war despite what happened at the end of this episode?

Jeff: I, I, I don't know if it's a civil war, but I think it's definitely a collapse of their known society. So I, we can assume that Valin went back, or Sinclair went back and then as Valin reformed Minbar society. And so that time his reformation, that society is, is dead. It's dying. We're watching it die. And so I, and I think part of, I think part of the conclusion of the series is gonna be the refer reform, like the, the RERE reform, you know, so from, I think from this point forward, maybe not civil war, but definitely civil strife.

Brent: Yeah. Um, by the way, I, I just, particularly in this episode, I can't hear the word Rangers. Getting the rangers together. I can't hear that word without thinking Power Rangers. Go, go. Power

Jeff: watched, yeah, I never watched Power Rangers, but I felt the same. I'm just like, it bothered me that they kept saying Ranger one and not until za because Ranger one is such a human thing to

Brent: sure

Jeff: you know, and it's like, just

use your

Brent: Does Intel Zab mean Ranger one?

Jeff: I think

Brent: I think like if you translate it, I think that's supposed to mean Ranger one. I still have questions if there's some sort of weird connect to the idea of Zaha Doom and, and whatever, but,

Jeff: Well, I, I did go to Google Translate and I said, what does Intels, uh, mean in English? And it just called me a nerd, I said, Fair enough. Fair enough.

Brent: Um, hey, let me ask you, do you think Naroon was right though in his concern

Jeff: About, about

Brent: about Dalen using the Rangers to consolidate her power? She's a powerful leader of the religious cast, despite everything else that's happened with her, and now she wants to control this, this military arm. Like, I mean, put yourself in na room's, shoes.

Like this isn't just him looking to grab power. Like there's a little bit of like a, Hey, wait a minute.

Jeff: Let me read you my exact note. Naroon thinks she's empire building. I can see where he would think that, and I'm not sure he's wrong. I don't know that she's doing it intentionally,

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: but, but also I don't think that Dalen does things unintentionally, you know what I mean? So it's like I, let me, let me rephrase that.

I don't think she's doing it malicious. But I think there may be some under current political intent behind what she's doing.

Brent: Well, but also for Delin. Okay. Think about what she now knows coming off of war without in parts one and two.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: She is the one and she is the one now

Jeff: Who

Brent: who is? Yeah, that's what I mean. And if she is going to be the one, then yeah, she has, that's a, that's a clear, open and shut than I'm the one to lead. I mean, and, and we've seen to Lynn do this, you know, Hey, here's this prophecy and somebody's gotta do it.

Well, it's gonna be me. Hey, you are the one. Well, I guess I'm leading the Rangers then. Hey, you are the one. Well, I'm, I'm gonna hook up with Sheridan, I guess, and we're gonna have babies by, , did you note just how much more Chum Sheridan was with, uh, Dalin after going to the future and seeing where they wind up together?

Jeff: I found it fascinating cause I talked last week about that first kiss being kind of, kind of, uh, upsetting to me cuz it was a first kiss but not a first kiss or whatever. But then I thought it's gonna be not fair again because when they actually have their kind of, for real first kiss, it'll be his second kiss.

Like they as a couple have been robbed of a true first kiss. And if this was created by Disney, that would have massive implications.

Brent: Dalin would be asleep forever, or Sheridan would just be

Jeff: Sheridan? Yeah, he's the princess. He is the princess in this story. I, I, I think for sure.

Brent: you go. Um,

Jeff: great cuz like they were watching everybody go through and, I mean he's just high school arm around her and

Brent: oh yeah, she's putting her head on her

Jeff: Uhhuh . Yeah. It was so sweet. But it was cool. They connected and I really, I was touched.

By her story about her, like especially about her dad when she shared that story about her dad. Um, so the story is that, you know, there was a tradition that when they went to Temple he would carry her up on his shoulders and they would go in and one day he looked at her and said, you're too big to go on my shoulders.

And I dunno, a couple months ago, you and I were talking about our daughters. Our daughters are close in age and, um, and like my, my daughter, she's very tall, but she is, is a very, very light child. And so I can still, I can still pick her up and carry her, not easily, but I can, and it's a pretty normal thing.

Like at the end of the day, well, she'll stand at the foot of the stairs and she wants an uppy. and I will go outta my way to make sure I can give her that uppy, because I know that one day I won't be able to, like, there's going to be a last time I pick up my daughter and I'm not gonna know when that time is, you know, until after it has happened.

It's almost like Andy, be Andy Bernard in the office when he says, wouldn't it be cool if when you're in the good old days, you knew you were in the good old days, and I feel like that's picking up your kid. But I loved how she added that piece that when he said that, you know, you're too big. I can't carry you anymore.

And she's like, I looked at him and for the first time I knew that I was gonna lose him one day. And I loved him more than I ever had before because as we would say, he became more human in that moment. I kept waiting for her to say, you know, he became more minbar to me in that moment. But, uh, I thought that I just, I, I, I really liked that story.

I thought that was great.

Brent: So Lanier goes to Marcus cuz he's been given an order and he can't, he can't do some stuff. I loved his reasoning for going to Marcus, like he's, but I, man, I am loving Lanier more and more like, cuz he, he knew he had to do.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: he figured something out of, of what he had to go do. And, and I loved that he made something happen.

Um, but I want to talk about the Naroon Marcus fight.

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: Okay. First of all, the set design, it was a simple, easy set. Now, I say that as a person who doesn't build sets, but it was a simple, easy set. The lighting for that set was amazing. Coming through the fan, with the fan rotating like that and what that did, uh, what that allowed the, the cinematographer to do, and for the directors and all, like, it was a beautifully done set.

And, uh, I, I loved that whole scene, that whole

Jeff: It was very, um, very empire strikes back, right when Luke and Vader are in, they're still, when they're still in Cloud city fighting before they get to the outside. It had that feel too. And the fight had that feel too. I think this is one of those moments we've talked about the evolution of Babylon Five's, um, production value.

They could not have done this scene in the first season at all. Second season would've been okay, like this, this scene could only happen for them now the way that it did. And I think because. The set design, the lighting and, and, and just the, they were able to get these nice wide shots. Nice, these really nice close up shots, and it allowed for an edit that really made it look like the Naroon and Marcus actors were like, there was no obvious stunt fighting happening.

You know, even today in a lot of stuff, when they're having a fight scene, it's like, oh, there, there's the stunt actor doing the thing. And this was cut together so smoothly. There were times I wondered, I'm like, did they do all of this themselves? Like

Brent: Oh, I, you know, I, I 100% believe that that was the, the actors for Marcus and Naroon doing all of those pieces. I will say though, that I do, as much as I loved the set the fight choreography, though, I often felt like I was watching fight choreography and not watching a fight. And many times, like I couldn't tell who was actually attacking whom.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Like, I just didn't know. They just, they, they look like they were going through motions. They've practiced 15 times before.

Jeff: they had similar outfits, um, which helped cover some of that, but there was one scene in particular. Nero's get in the upper hand, and Marcus ends up on his knees facing a wall, and what's supposed to happen is, my guess is Naroon comes down for that death blow to the back of his head, and boom, he gets his pi up.

But what happened instead is he got his pike up and then

Naroon hit his

Brent: on time. Yeah, yeah,

Jeff: Yeah. And it was just like cl like there's no way that arc of attack would've ever even hit

Brent: Right, right. Like I said,

Jeff: but I mean, come

Brent: right.

Jeff: We talk about, I talk about how I can't suspend disbelief for your Gray 17 stuff. Just come on, Brent, suspend your disbelief for

Brent: oh no, I suspended my disbelief, but I was still like, oh, but hey, you know what? For a fight like that on mid nineties television, not bad. Not bad. I couldn't have done better. Um, okay. I don't know if you've ever heard the saying before that, uh, Marcus, the Ranger spoke while he was in the middle of his fight,

Jeff: I don't think I've ever heard it.

Brent: I don't think, but he's, there's two pieces that jumped out to me.

One, I stand on the bridge and none may pass. You shall not pass.

Jeff: heard about jm s's, love of Toan. Like that's I a hundred

Brent: A hundred percent. Yep. Yep. Rip track. But then he says this, and this means something different after last week. We live for the one, we die for the one. And right now the one is Dalen.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Live for the one, die for the one. And I wrote that down and turns out that would be the crux for the rest of the episode.

Jeff: Yeah. Weird. Right?

Brent: Brilliant Writing. Jeff, you say weird, brilliant

Jeff: and it was, and and, and the acting for it too was so good. I think, cuz I think Naroon Naroon did such, well, I forget the actor's name and I feel like a jerk for forgetting his name cuz he's

so good. But what he brought to that character was that inner strife. Like during that fight, he, you, you brought tko O up earlier, so I'm gonna bring it up again where I, I really have this strong belief because of my professional background that like martial arts, combat fighting is such a great way to express inner, not inner, but inner personal turmoil and conflict.

And that's what this fight was, right? What we saw was Marcus is truly a ranger and fully believes in the one like without question. And that's great. Cool. We kind of assumed that, but now we have it confirmed. He was fully willing to die, but naroon. You know, whatever. I, I could win this fight whenever I want.

PCO broke one of your ribs. Boom two. Come on dude. Just give up. I can make this easy for you. The reason he didn't just kill Marcus is cuz he knew there was more going on and he felt personally, and we'll talk about it, you know, when we get to our closing thoughts specifically. But his ability, the actor's ability to show that facially through the fight was incredible.

And to me, that last scene was, you know, Marcus fla out blood clearly on his last moment and he had that shot of Naroon with the pike. Right, right, right. Adam. And if he was gonna kill him the last, the end of that scene would've been boom, you know, the pipe boom coming towards the camera. I wish that that scene had happened.

Right. But we found that it was him just, you know, moving it away. I think it would've added a little more punch to when he walked into the, into the ceremony. But, God, it was just, they told such a story in that fight. That, that, to me, that's part of what forgave some of the,

Brent: So,

Jeff: so great choreography

Brent: to go back to the idea of, uh, an impending civil war with what comes next, okay. Um, de despite the laughter we heard at the end between Naroon and Marcus, Naroon comes in and he declares Delin in tills a right, but at the same time. And he says that line, they would die for you, but they wouldn't die for me.

Like, amazing line. But he throws the pipe down on the ground and it's covered with blood and he says there are, there's now blood between our casts and there's blood between the warrior cast and the humans. Did that resolve at the end of this episode or is that something we're gonna ha pick up? In a future episode or set of episodes coming up here soon,

Jeff: So I have a theory.

Brent: I want to hear it.

Jeff: So there was, um, the episode, and I'll talk about it in my closing thoughts as well. But we met in Aroon, in Legacies And Legacies

Brent: doing that thing with the, he was taking somebody's body on a tour,

Jeff: yep. Yeah. And the, the big, I, I forget his name, but the, the person was a friend of De Lens and it was the big military commander during the Earthman Barr War who was religious cast.

But switched, you know, and went and worked. I'm not, I don't know if he switched to Warrior Cast, but he basically took the job of a warrior cast

Brent: What my, my remembrance of that was he was half and half, his mother was of one, his father was of the other, and he was raised according to, I guess his mom, but when the time came, he had to become warrior and that's part of how the war, the religious cascade in so much power. Was, um, because he was, he was really straddling the fences, both, but the, the man was legitimately both warrior and religious cast.

Jeff: And religious. Okay.

Brent: That's my

Jeff: we don't know.

Brent: of somebody out there is typing going, no, no, no, no, no. And that's cool.

Jeff: Cool. Please don't tell us. Actually, we'll catch it on, on the second watch through, but, but I think assuming, I wanna assume we don't know Naroon might have some similar ancestry, because what I think is gonna happen is that the next step is the warrior cast rising up pre-civil war.

But to seal that breach and to, um, cleanse the blood between the casts Naroon is gonna switch to religious

Brent: Wow.

Jeff: in the footsteps of his idol, who he paraded around in legacies. And because what he learned today is the unfortunate to him, the unfortunate truth that he doesn't know about the one, you know, or whatever, that, I don't know if that means anything to him, but he knows that Dalen has real power and you can be on the side of power and rise or you can fight it and lose.

And I, so I think he's gonna, I, I, I think he basically, Threw his hat in, threw the pike with Dilen, and I think he's gonna become religious

Brent: That's, that's

Jeff: that'll save

Brent: yeah, that's, I want to challenge you just a little bit on, he's throwing his hat in because of the power. As much as I like, what I want to believe is he understands the reason behind it, that it's really not about the power, but it's about, Hey, actually there's, there's something here that's bigger than all of us.

You know, what you describing that makes me think of the, it makes me think of was his name draw. From the troll hunters show

Jeff: Yeah. Uhhuh

Brent: that that, uh, and for those of you, listen guys, I, this is a little bit of a spoiler, but it's like an episode three spoiler where in this particular case, the guy who was supposed to be the heir of the troll hunter, uh, now has to face off against the guy who has actually been chosen to be the neutral hunter.

And he doesn't like it.

Jeff: and he's a filthy human. That became the

Brent: yeah. And like, no, that's supposed to be mine. I was the next guy in line that's mine. And he actually wound up having to, uh, subservient not the right word. What, what's the word, Jeff? Uh, mentor. Yeah. This guy who actually took what was supposed to be his by birthright, supposedly it wasn't, but it was supposed to be.

Um, but he wound up joining the team of this person who had what actually should have been his. That very much sounds like what's happening here with Naroon, at least as far as your, uh, prediction goes.

Jeff: totally. And, and I'll talk about it more in the closing thoughts, but I, there's the power that he's, I, I believe he's attracted to, but it's not the power, it's what the power can accomplish. And it's a concept we've talked about with Londo, where like, he'll take on that emper. Role, not cuz he aspires to be emperor, but because he wants what's best for the Sonari people.

Naroon throughout this whole thing just wants what he believes is best for the menari

Brent: So,

Jeff: needs that power to do

Brent: so we're, we're getting into that spot, Jeff, where it's time to really start analyzing it, and it's really gonna come down to this last scene. Before we get there, though, I do just want to say with Naroon and Marcus, isn't this really how it works amongst dudes? A lot of times where, look, we can get into a fight, knock down, drag out fight, but when the fight's over, we also can go have a beer with each other. I don't know. I remember, I remember the first time I ever experienced that. For me growing up, I was in seventh grade and I wound up getting into a fight with this dude who was in and outta juvie.

Jeff: Who?

Brent: was not a good guy. Like he reached out, flipped glasses off my face. I'm a big dude, I was always a big dude.

So he and I stood toe to toe, you know, and this guy was a bit of, a bit of a bully, you know? But, uh, we went at it, uh, we really went at it. But as soon as that was over, this dude was like, he was looking at me, he's like, Hey, if you ever wind up in juvie, I'll take care of you. I'll be, I'll be. And this guy was like my friend from that moment on, I don't even remember his name.

He must have gone to juvie really soon after that, cuz I don't think I ever saw him too much longer after that. Uh, but if you are out there and you're watching, Hey, what's up, man? Uh, I still remember you. Um, but it really was that idea of just the, the amazingness of what it is. And I'm not saying this is a dude thing.

Okay. Please don't hear me wrong out there, folks, but just that ability of like, yeah, we can fight, but we can go have a beer or two at, at the end and, and let, let the fight be done.

Jeff: We had an experience about a year ago. Um, my daughter, she goes to a Catholic school and it's a different environment there. And it was, oh, that was early in the school year, but a fistfight happened. It's a pre-kindergarten through eighth grade school. So, um, lots of ages. It was two middle school kids and they got into a fist fight, and that's the first time my daughter had experienced anything like that before.

Like a lot of, a lot of the kids saw it. And so she came home and she had questions, you know, and so, you know, we were talking about using your words and conflict resolution and all the things that, you know, as a parent you're supposed to do. But my, my wife and I were talking afterwards about how fascinating it is, exactly what you were talking about.

You know, I got into some fights. When I was in grade school and middle school and I know a lot of other people that didn't, it was, that was generally the experience. You know, you roughed each other up for a couple days. Your fist hurt. Your face hurt, and then you were fine. Like it was okay. But the school response right was like, you're suspended, expelled, you're never coming back to like was this extreme response.

But the lasting effects were minimal. Now kids go out and emotionally abuse taut and traumatized people mentally abuse taut and traumatize each other with lasting impacts. In 40 years, these kids are gonna be bringing this stuff in therapy with long lasting impacts. And teachers and administrators in schools are like, all right, so stop it.

Let's not do it. And it's that whole like misapplication of to talk about justice, but it's like that fight is obvious and we know academically fighting is wrong and so we can respond to that. But. You know, it's more complicated about like, the real hurt that we experience, and we don't take that as seriously.

We just thought it was an interesting observation that we experienced.

Brent: Oh, well, Jeff Un, unless you have anything else, um,

Jeff: so I, I wanted to get your opinion. They're, they're going back and so Naroon is talking to him while he is passed out, you know, whatever. Turns out he is not passed out. He turns around and he talks and it is a very awkward, slow and pained delivery for, uh, for him to kind of, you know, for Marcus to respond.

I'm curious what your reaction was to that, just that the way that sequence was acted out and directed, like his delivery, you

Brent: For, for Marcus specifically, or for Naroon or for both

Jeff: For Marcus. For Marcus,

Brent: Um,

Jeff: or did I see something that you didn't even, didn't register for you?

Brent: I, I mean, I thought it was fine. He was beat up and he was struggling through his injuries. I will say this, the makeup for what it would've looked like, him being that beaten up was not anywhere near what he would actually look like.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: You know what I mean?

Jeff: it was not

Brent: Yeah. And the way he was struggling to get words out was not commiserate with what the visual of the makeup was, but that, to me is a makeup issue, not a, a direction or an acting issue.

Um, because I, I think he delivered the line. Okay. It was an awkward line. It was an awkwardly written line, and it seemed to me, um,

Jeff: I'm glad you felt that

way cuz

Brent: But I didn't think

Jeff: thought it was a, well, I thought it was a well-written line actually. Given the situation, he's probably heavily concussed. He, I, my assumption was his jaw was broken and my thought was, The acting and the directing and the writing here all came together in a really cool way.

Everyone did their job. It was the editing and the makeup that just ki kind of made him look ridiculous a little bit.

Brent: Yeah, I

Jeff: but it's still shown through.

Brent: Sure, sure. I, I mean, honestly, at that point I'd also dealt with the ZA and. Robert England and all of that sort of

Jeff: I literally, I literally forgot that was a part of this

Brent: Yeah. And like, like I, like,

Jeff: like just right now. Right now, I did

Brent: like I'm in that moment though, like, and I'm, my mind is spinning on all the stuff that Naroon has just said, and he's like, Hey, I need a moment with this guy, warrior to warrior man, demand.

You know, and, and, and, uh, he's like, we're not of the same blood, but we are of the same heart. And, you know, uh, just how things changed for him. Uncomfortable was not the word. I thought Marcus was going to use something a little less painful, something a little less, um, extreme. Something a little less uncomfortable like that.

I, I thought that word was weird, but I was still thinking about everything else personally.

Jeff: Yeah. Well I think that, um, it's a great segue for us to start talking about that talk specifically, which is where we start looking to see what kind of sci-fi, what kind of star treking message this episode has. Um, I'm gonna do that by rating this on a scale of zero to five Deltas. And Brent, you have the responsibility of rating this on a scale of zero to five star furries, which is how much we liked it and how Battle on five the episode was.

I'm gonna go first. And it really does land in that whole kind of last scene with Marcus Naroon and, um, Delan and Lanier. Linear and Del are talking, and he says, linear says to her, you cherish life. Life is your goal, but for the greater part to live, some must die or be harmed in its defense. Now I feel like I've heard that before, except it sounded a little bit more like the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one and the one that takes on a whole new meaning for us Now in Babylon five in Star Trek, Spock, for example, is willing to die to save the enterprise crew at the end of the Wra of Khan.

In this episode, Marcus willing to die for Dalen because her life and her new position will save countless lives. So now, like in this Babylon five episode, it's uh, the needs of the many or the one. outweigh the needs of the few. Right. It flips that and we capitalize it. But I'd love to take on this concept.

You and I really appreciated Naroon eventually in, when he was in Legacies, you know, he was laser focused on his goal. He was true to his beliefs, and he gave that textbook apology to Sinclair or Valin? Sinclair. Yeah, it was Sinclair back then . But then he went all racial purist and super bad guy in all alone in the night when he fired Dalen.

And now he started from that point, right? And dropped all that racial purity stuff again and ended pretty amazing because just like in legacies, he was once again focused on his goal and his ab and his beliefs and his belief in the greater, the greater capabilities of, of the Menari through that fight with Marcus, he.

Through that fight. He, he lost his, he was no longer blinded by his personal ego or by his feelings towards Dalen, I think in, um, all alone in the night. It was made very clear that he has a, a lot of, a lot of dislike towards her, but he sticks to his belief and ultimately he ends up willing to die, or at least for his ego to die because he admits, he admits that he was wrong.

He admits that humans and Minbar, like you said, may share the same heart. He dies, he dies to self for what he believes in and what he believes is important to Menari culture. For him, the needs of the many outweigh his personal vendetta, his feelings, and any personal, um, aspirations that he had. The story between Marcus and Naroon, but also.

Both of them being willing to die for what is foundational for them, which is really Minbar culture, and in Marcus's case, Dalen as well. It's incredible. It's it, it alone. This whole Minbar thing makes this episode worth watching multiple, multiple times. Again, I'm gonna skip ahead in some parts when I watch it again, but this one, based on this Star Trek message that is masterfully told in a way that only Babylon five can tell.

I'm gonna give this episode three Deltas.

Brent: So you talk about, um, comparing what Naroon said to the needs of the mini outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, I actually want to go compare that to something else. I want to compare that to what Kosh slash Jaquan told Ja Car in his little vision, that in order to save. The mall, some must die. And I probably didn't say that exactly right.

But it's that same general idea. And, and Kar struggled with that concept of in order, in order to save the whole, some are gonna have to be sacrificed. Right. Which isn't it, it's not cozy, it's not, uh, uh, pretty the way it is in Star Trek. It is very different. Lanier struggled to kind of get that same idea out, and he, he understands this concept like, we're not gonna come out of this perfectly clean.

There's going to be, I, I, it actually raises the question to me, who on the DVD cover as a character, is gonna die by the time this war is over. Now we know Londo and Kar die at the very end. Right? That's a different situation. But, uh, you know, remember sh uh, delin told Sheridan in the future, the cost has been really high to secure.

The thing is Gu Baldi sacrificed is a Vva sacrificed. Is, uh, please go ahead and sacrifice Franklin

Jeff: Yeah, that's fine. Don't sacrifice lan. But is he

Brent: Is is Lan sacrifice? Like, like who? Uh, that's just the DVD card. All Zach all. Would you be heartbroken if the, if it was

Jeff: I'd be sad. I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what I'm willing

Brent: Hey, by the way, I'm sorry. Zach needs to join the spinoff of the, like,

Jeff: the sidekicks,

Brent: right? Him and Veer and, uh, Lanier and Na Toth can go away.

Jeff: Well, I'm, I'm willing, I am willing to offer, um, to the sacrificial. Points that are coming. I'm willing to offer Franklin and I'm willing to offer Netta. Um, and, and you know what? Because he hasn't been around, I'll offer Lou as well. That's my gi I don't want to, but Lou has made his

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: so hopefully that'll help save Lanier and

Brent: I, I'll offer the new Kosh as well.

Jeff: we don't even know them yet.

Brent: right. Um, so my whole point in saying that, um, I don't, I think this episode and the value of this episode is inextricably linked to the Naroon Marcus Deen's storyline and the enjoyment of this episode being an episode that j m s has had to apologize for or feels like he has to apologize for admitting that the whole gray 17 stuff is junk.

Okay. It's, it's, it's goofy. You can forgive it. It's popcorn munching. You know, Saturday the 14th strikes back not even really that good kind of a stuff, you know, um,

the gold of it is in this. What makes this episode enjoyable, Jeff, is the, what we would call the Star Trek message. And I said, put that in big air quotes, because to what you said, this did it in a way that only babble on five could do. And we, I, we, we've done this before, I pulled it out a couple weeks ago, but I think it's time to bring it back.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: this episode is, it's not just, Hey, did we like the episode? And it's Scott Star furries. This was an episode that meant something. It talked about something and it did it in a uniquely Babylon five way, in a way that nobody else could do. So I give this one, three star, I'm sorry, three Delta Furies.

Jeff: I love it. I love it. And it is like, to your point there, there's just Babylon five for us. Has established itself as a mechanism for delivering these messages. It's the point of sci-fi. It's the point of art. It's the point of creation is to tell difficult to hear and difficult to consume messages in a way that becomes consumable.

And Babylon five is doing it in a way that no other series has been able to, and it has drawn us in in ways that other series can't. And so I applaud your use of the Delta Fury, but Brent, your job isn't over. And in fact, you have a very difficult one.

Brent: I do.

Jeff: coming up right now. We are developing the definitive, objectively correct ranking of all of the episodes of the third season of Babylon.

Five. Our current rankings have war without End Part two, war Without End Part One. Then Severed Dreams, point of no return and then Ship of Tears. Grace 17 might be missing, but it needs to be ranked somewhere. Brent, where do you put it?

Brent: Jeff, this is an episode, uh, and I've, I actually thought about this long before I got to this spot, so I've, I've put a lot of thought into this one. Um, I think this is an episode that is more valuable than people realize. I said earlier, this is the t k O of season three. Um, and I, I definitely, I, it's more than I have a chance to go through into this podcast. Maybe this will be babbel on five for the second. I really want to go back and rewatch this and try to see the Naroon Marcus storyline through the eyes of the stuff happening with the Zark.

Right? Like, I, I, I just, I feel like something's there that's just not connecting for me yet that I haven't been able to figure out. I hope it's

Jeff: Maybe, maybe it's the name.

Brent: Maybe.

Jeff: it from Connect. I mean, so I'm sorry. We're done talking about the episode, but we didn't zark. That's what, okay.

Brent: I feel like we've heard that name before though.

Jeff: Really,

Brent: feel like this is the first time we've heard it. I feel like we've heard it. I could be wrong. Anyway, that being said, um, I did find this, this episode rather enjoyable, but I think this episode is also important because of the message that comes from it. I don't think it's gonna stay this high. I think we have what, three episodes left of the season, which is, is going to push, I think this episode. I'm assuming these are gonna be fantastic episodes. So I am actually going to place this episode in the top half,

Jeff: really?

Brent: so far into the top half that if these next three episodes are killer, it will push it out of the top half.

But I'm gonna place this one right next to another episode that is not a, Hey, let's run out and go watch this episode again. But we also said that it was a really important episode. I'm putting it right next to passing through gmy, which is number eight. And I think passing through GUE is actually more important than this one, uh, with the material that it goes into and what it covers with, uh, Brad Dorf and, and feelings of guilt and actually kind of a theme for the season that we said.

So I'm placing it right between passing through gase and the season premiere of matters of honor. Number nine.

Jeff: Wow. Wow.

Brent: You put tko in the top five just

Jeff: a great episode though. I will, I will die on that hill. And in the vein of that, I will say that, uh, if I had arguments against your ranking, they don't matter. We don't get to argue. We don't get to argue that. But uh, yeah, we do. We do have more episodes to get to. So we'll see. We'll see where this lands out because this closes us out for gray.

17 is missing. Next week, Brant, we are watching and the rocks cried out, no hiding place for the first time. Yeah. And the rocks cried out, no hiding place. Or is it? And the rock cried out. And the rock cried out. No hiding place.

Brent: wait, is this, is this like two separate titles of the episode?

Jeff: There's a comma.

Brent: Are there quotation marks? Like did the Rock say No Hiding place?

Jeff: the rock, it doesn't matter what the rock said there,

Brent: And the rock cried out, no hiding click. Okay. That's it. That's, that's what I, this is

Jeff: It's Suni.

Brent: is the episode where we try to pull in the w e figure of the day. Right. We're tr we're cross-promoting here, right? Uh, so maybe it's the undertaker, it's big show. Maybe it's, I doubt it's the rock. Maybe it is. I don't know.

Jeff: Rock. This is 96. So Rock is just, just coming to us. It might be Sean Michaels.

Brent: somebody like that. Right, right, right, right. Like we're, we're starting

Jeff: Steve Austin's really hitting his stride right

Brent: But they're, they're, they're coming. They're hunting and there's no place you can hide. They're coming to get you. There's no place you can hide because this guy's coming to get you.

Jeff: Okay. There has been a decidedly Catholic theme to this season.

Brent: was thinking that too, but I liked the wrestler idea better. So, go

Jeff: I, I like the

Brent: I'm I, I'm glad you're picking up this theme, so go for it.

Jeff: Yeah. Because right when you hear the rock, if you're not, you don't go Dwayne Johnson. You gotta think about Peter who's the, you know, the, the rock of the church first Pope. And when I think Peter, I think apostolic succession, and when I think apostolic succession in Babylon five, I think about Brother Theo and the monks that we haven't seen in a super, super long

Brent: not since passing through gse, I think.

Jeff: Right? So what I think is gonna happen is I think that Theo and his crew are going to confront Londo about his atrocities.

Brent: oh

Jeff: there's no hiding place, right? They're gonna, oh, no, no, this is what's gonna happen. So they're doing their stuff, right? Trying to learn about the names of of God, and they're gonna talk to Kar about Jaquan.

And in that he's gonna talk about his dust to dust vision. Of Londo and how all of this is Lao's fault and they're gonna go to Londo. And in the spirit of trying to get him to accept it and confess and ask for forgiveness and everything, and I don't think it's gonna end well for Brother Theo. I don't think he's gonna die necessarily in this one, but I could see him getting added to the, uh, to Lon do's Morden kind of a thing along with Refa and his

Brent: Are we gonna see the, um, the person that replaced Brad Doff,

Jeff: Oh wow.

Brent: back and like, is Sheridan gonna have to deal with his feelings about this dude again?

Jeff: I think so. Because I mean, we're in the last three, right? This is heavy stuff. I think he is gonna be faced with that. Ooh, I like

Brent: Could be, could be.

Jeff: We're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe or follow us wherever you're listening or watching, and go. We are doing our Season three wrap up in just a couple of weeks from now.

And in that wrap up, we're giving away not one, but two star furries. Were 3D printed and donated by our buddy Wash. They look incredible. And if you want to get your hands on one of these star furies, go to Apple Podcasts, go to Pod Chaser, good pods, any of those places, audible, write us a rating or review.

Not only will you be entered to win a Star Fury, but we'll read it here on the podcast. So until next

Brent: Hey, Hey Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, man. What's up?

Brent: Um, so I, I feel like I actually need to apologize.

Jeff: Oh, for, for what?

Brent: Well, for Gray 17 is missing for, for this episode, um, of the podcast, like the whole part with the ZA and trying to make it a metaphor for what was going on with Naroon. It, it just didn't really work and I just wanna apologize to you and the fans out there for trying to force that out there.

Jeff: Brent what devil it is. It can't be that bad.

Brent: Oh, actually I didn't think it was that bad either. I kind of liked the idea.

Jeff: Good. Yeah. Okay. We got that settled. Totally agree. Peace, victory, and long life.