GROPOS | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. 5, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all the stuff that there's no way we could have known about the first time around. You know, Jeff, I listen to that intro every time. The one that always gets me is this is where Babylon 5 becomes Babylon 5. Today I heard a second line that follows that up that I just went, wow, that's a genius thing to say. It'll be interesting to see the things that we catch and the things that we don't. How are we going to see the things we don't catch? Well, like this.

[1:18] Don't you have to catch them in order to see whether you caught it or not? Also, isn't that everything? The stuff we catch and the stuff we don't. You guys could see the stuff that we don't catch but i look they missed it again right missed it the first time now it's in front of their face they missed it again it's true it happens nia nia says in the chat that's what the chat is for that's right nia that's you know what i love about this round jeff something we something we have now we didn't have the first time around yeah people along the river the ride with us you and i were in such a bubble through the first time the second time we've got our council chambers here with us we got our folks on patreon we got our folks on youtube that are all interacting with us as this comes out yep that being said jeff that should just let everybody know the people who are on this show the people who are interacting with us we're all folks who've been through babylon 5 at least once at least at least once and what that means is from this point forward spoilers will abound anything from any point the franchise.

[2:22] Is fair game for us to talk about so if you have not yet watched babylon 5 all the way through for the first time we ask you, please stop this show. Join us for our first watch. It's all there in the archive. Go catch it. It's right there. Just scroll up or down. I don't know which direction it is, but scroll somewhere. You'll find our first, you could do it there completely spoiler free. Join us there and then come back and join us here at the second time when you have caught up. Otherwise, welcome to the show. It is full of spoilers though, just so you know. And the show this week is called Gropos, which is a thing we didn't know when we were heading into this one the first time how do you even say to this thing i don't know i drop us drop us drop us first time we watched this one brent i i have mixed memories of this one i remember being of two minds where like i i really really liked some of i remember this being my favorite kefir episode i feel like it was the the one that he truly shined in i feel like this is the only kefir episode this one and The one he dies in, that's about it. I feel like he just disappeared. He just stopped showing up one day. Kind of like Natoth. Yeah, and Kosh in this season so far. Stopped showing up from work. I'll just be there sometimes, but I also hated this episode. This drove my, and I'll just say it, my hatred of Dr. Franklin to dizzying heights.

[3:44] It's what I remember. What do you remember about your first view of this one? I remember being very ho-hum on this episode. I really do. but also as time went on i remember liking this episode in my memory right more than what i did when i watched actually when i remember liking this episode more in my memory than what i actually did when i watched it for the first time i think i remember this episode pretty well there's not a lot about this episode that's fuzzy to me i've got it i got the major beats i remember the small pieces that happen paul winfield as franklin's dad is good not great you know he's not what's what's the dude's name that he played on season five episode one of next generation it's not tamaloc oh no it wasn't darmok either it was called darmok but yeah yeah he had some other name yeah right whatever card and dude at this place is how they ended with that line i don't know yeah yeah this is a babylon five podcast it is come on no but my but my point being paul winfield.

[4:45] That might be i was really excited to see him had really high expectations and he was just he was fine in this episode right i remember the heartache of garibaldi and the b5 crew as they kind of got to know all these folks and then there's the tragedy that happens at the end and you're like oh that sucks right looking back on this one jeff i gotta tell you i feel like this is probably a very very poignant episode and i kind of don't know why we disliked it the first time around which makes me very excited to see it again to go is it actually a poignant episode or is this just kind of i'm not sure well as you know i uh i listened to our first time viewing of this one would uh you like to know why we didn't like it very much yes please well i don't know i don't know would i do i want to know why we didn't like it or well yeah because i want to know if i was right or wrong when we watch it again yes you are correct we we our our final assessment on this one was not good yeah we didn't hate it just not good here here's what i remember about this if i could sum this up this was the final bad episode of babylon 5 period bold statement my friend period no no no well i see there's this fuzzy area right around the beginning of season five that kind of comes and goes but it's it's uncertain.

[6:05] I just i just don't remember it very well but from like this point for like i mean jeff starting next week in next week's episode dude we are on a rocket ride through the end with a few little pit stops there's this thing about the mail delivery system that was hilarious that was hilarious you know what that's a perfect example of good b story terrible a story but that's an episode we haven't got to yet jeff we'll assess that when we come back let's talk about this one yes you said boring not interesting paul winfield is great and he couldn't save this episode like david warner did for grail interesting okay i really really leaned in on my not liking him dr franklin uh in fact my statement was yeah i just don't care about dr franklin or his dad yeah and i think my final but here's the thing though here's the thing though back that up though You now see Dr. Franklin through season five, Dr. Franklin eyes. So you do care about Dr. Franklin now. This might be a very different because my statement was if I liked Franklin at all, I might have liked this episode more time to put that to the test. My friend. Exactly. We're big fans of large and Dodger. Both. We had issues with Garibaldi and how he just didn't get the idea of a one night stand. Oh, dude. I remember that. I remember that conversation. Yeah, absolutely. I kept saying, it drives me, it makes me so mad, and I am Garibaldi. I so identify with that.

[7:35] This was the first time. I don't know, Jeff. I've been out with you before. We recorded this a while ago.

[7:44] Jeff's got his groove back, y'all. That's all I'm saying. Jeff's in a different chapter of his life right now. This is the first time, Brent, that you, or you noticed it before I did, But the first time we noticed Ivanova wearing just one earring. Really? Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. Because I've certainly noticed it before now on this watch through. Yeah. Because we know it's there. And why? Well, it stands out like a sore thumb at this point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You just see it every single time. At one point you were like, hey, did you notice the big bleached white skull in Franklin's office? What is he, a mad scientist or something? I want to watch for that one. But you made a Stargate reference. And when I heard this, I popped so hard. I was just like, this is great. I talked about missing gate lady from the first season. Like, oh, she was great. And you were like, yeah, she's the Walter Harriman of Babylon five. And I was just like, okay. And now I know. Norm. Yeah. I was going to say, you don't even know who Walter Harriman is. I do. It's Norm. Well, yeah, it's Norm Davis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's Walter. His name is, what is it? Norm Walter Harriman Davis or something like that. Cause they got all this stuff mixed up and messed up. Something like that We had that conversation A little while ago Oh did we? Yeah Cause it was in that episode They called him They called him Walter Yeah.

[9:01] Yeah yeah the time timey why me one yeah.

[9:04] Dude i i gotta tell you jeff i made so many stargate references like like every time i hear one i'm like oh my god so many i'm just like i don't even know what you're talking about yeah they were just going right over your head and i think that's why i loved making those references because you had no idea what i was talking about at all and now it's like oh you said a thing i know that.

[9:26] Thing it's so great that's what i got out of our podcast listen what did you get as you scoured the internet and the lurker's guide for any intel on this one jeff there was nothing out there i'm so shocking shocked i mean there's not okay i take that back there is a little bit um jms says this for this episode they went so far over budget okay think about this this episode they went so far over budget they had to write two smaller bottle episodes to make up for it really yeah i want to know what the smaller bottle episodes were that made up for this one i want to know what they spent money on in this one right my guess i'm almost guessing that it's the um one of the two episodes is the uh the jack the ripper episode at the end of the season because i can see that one being very tom's the inquisitor there it is there are a lot of effects in that one may yeah maybe not i really if a chat over there if you guys know what the two episodes are that they had to gail back on in order to pay for this one also what did they spend the money on in this episode yeah i'm guessing ania says in the chat a ton of extras and probably paul winfield.

[10:36] I don't know what else there is i guess you know large um they had to invest in catering to have large on right right um he does.

[10:45] Answer a question about garibaldi i'm gonna save that for while we're in the episode okay um but he does mention this the battle sequence at the end of gropos it's all cgi oh there are no models despite there being shadows real fire was actually sampled for the flames though.

[11:03] There's the there's the money right there but that makes it cheap the whole idea was cgi makes things cheaper now now for them oh yeah no no for them like compared to how they could afford the show so that's it that's literally that's the entirety of it that's the whole thing all right it's the entirety of it so and i i checked multiple sources out there though jeff there's just not a lot on this episode that's fair let's see what we can dig out of this one as we watch it right here right now. Thank you for joining us. If you are here for the first time, that's incredible.

[11:34] I mean, frankly, my mind is a little bit blown if you're here on this one for the first time, but it's awesome that you are. This is what's going to happen. We're going to pull up the episode right here, right now. We're going to watch it in real time with you. We're going to do the reaction style thing. Well, we're going to watch the video. We're going to talk about it. We're going to pause, break it, break some stuff down, all that good stuff. Maybe talk through some of the messages as they're happening in real time. If you're watching us on YouTube, you'll see the edited and kind of cut up version of that. If you want to see the full version of that, the unedited version, we put that up on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five first. It's the number five and the word first. If you guys are listening to us on an audio podcasting app somewhere out there, it could be Audible.

[12:16] It could be Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcast Addict, I don't know, whatever you're listening to. Good Pods, if you're a Good Pods listener um hello to all three of you what's about to happen is you're basically going to hear us uh do the reaction to the video because we're going to have some good conversation during that and we don't want you to miss out on that but the big thing will be when we get on the back side of the episode you guys will hear the rest of that conversation as well so jeff while we jump into this episode grapples never grapples it's never okay i just i gotta say this guys save your emails save your comments jeff and i know it's grow posts this is a joke we're making coming off of last week we're actually being hilarious accessing file there is no night in deep space and time is a meaningless concept when you stop to think about it it really is he just well actually you're right.

[13:06] Corwind her. You just got Corwind. I'm receiving a code 10 ultraviolet doctor request. Dude, he looks so good right here. His hair's all suave and everything.

[13:22] CGI. Very clearly CGI. Yes. Sir, Captain John Sheridan, commander of Babylon 5. Welcome aboard, sir. General Richard Franklin, 356th Infantry Division. He doesn't know. delay in docking, sir. No one told us you were coming. This operation's classified. I'll brief you at 0900. In the meantime, I'll need villains for myself and my people. How many people are we talking, sir? 25,000. 25,000? I don't have nearly enough space. Well, find it. We'll be here for several days, and I don't intend for my troops to be sitting above transports that whole time. Yes, sir. We have a Dr. Stephen Franklin on the station. Any relation? He's my son. I'll let him know you're here. That won't be necessary. I'll attend to it when I'm sure that my people are set. Franklin, that's such a unique name. Do you think it's possible maybe you're related to this other person with this super unique name?

[14:12] 25,000. Achmed, serial number 879. I remember we talked about this. Yeah, we did. Sticking your hand in there. Like, what are you reading? And how long this had to take to get 25,000 people through. This is awful. Yeah, that's me. It's falling over there. Someone will take you to your village shortly. Say, that should just be like a boop, boop, boop, boop. And I mean fast. Commander. Commander! What the hell is this? Earth Force calls it a classified operation. I call it a nightmare. Operation Sudden Death is a surgical strike on the rebel stronghold at Matak. Marketing team was off. That's why Babel 5 has been chosen as our staging area. It's the closest Earth Alliance jump gate to the Shilassan sector. With all due respect, General, I spent time at Matak during the Karani expedition. It's more than just a fortress, it's a death trap. And that's another reason for choosing the station. I'm counting on you to help me finish planning the assault. How do you expect to keep this little party a secret? As far as anyone's concerned, we're relief troops for Ayo. Even my own soldiers don't know any differently, and by the time that.

[15:14] We'll already be in striking position look how like how long before the announcement is that really a good thing like you've literally lied to your own troops about what they're getting ready to go do uh-huh and all of a sudden you're going to turn this on them in the end be like is that really what you want to do there and he's super pleased with himself for it too like i know it's got to be secret but i mean if you're one of those troops all of a sudden you're what are we doing here this is i don't know you know a few days long enough for us to get our gifts in place.

[15:47] Systems for your defense, hey is this one of those grappas guys do you see jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff jeff what did you see his room number no is it 47 did you see his room number something i hope Oh, no! It totally is! It totally is! Good catch!

[16:16] Why are you in my room? Yeah. Playing with my toys.

[16:23] A nipper? Yeah. I don't know what lame brain... this idea but there's no way you two are staying here i don't know a lame brain all right jeff i don't know how they do it where you're from and i don't necessarily remember the 90s as well okay but if you're going to be a guest in somebody else's house even if you're billeted now i don't know the way military works when they get billeted into somebody's quarters roll up in somebody else's quarters like that and just be smoking right playing with his little model toys and stuff yeah like like i know that they're forcing this on him you're not really a guest but you kind of are like is yeah not okay come on dude this is not okay and not normal i don't think i don't well i don't know yeah maybe if you're the baddies it's a normal thing you got some kind of problem there boy yeah i got a problem just give me a minute to find a ladder and we'll hash it out face to face that's thor in avengers endgame right like staring down captain marvel being like i like this one so anyway here you go uh i'm on duty steven no no no no this is fruit juice no i like orange juice oh man this guy i like orange juice that's an interesting painting You can go over there. Behind me, Franklin.

[17:49] I wouldn't call her so much of an ocean. Are those his college degrees on the wall back there? Coffee and cake, probably. Of course, he puts them up in his quarters. Dodging massive explosions is inimical to the health at your age. Mom won't have more. Well, if you don't really have an office. Your mother worries if I eat a hamburger. You know what they say about old school.

[18:05] That they're old? They still kick butt with the best of them. Oh, is that what they say? Whatever happened to just fading away? Well, that's not an option at present. So, how are you, Stephen? Busy. Babylon 5 is always bringing me something new. I suppose that's good. It's more than good. This station is a xenobiologist's dream. You know there are over 20 different species of aliens living on Babylon 5 and more passing through every day. Over 250 000 people living on babylon 5 and only 20 different species okay that's a lot of species.

[18:39] Yeah but 20 250 000 people i figured i'd be a lot more seeing 250 000 people before yeah i used to live in the town 250 000 there's like three kinds of people yeah but we're all human here we're talking about you're at a junction of the space world or whatever we've been we've been pretty clear on our uh appreciation respect for richard biggs and how he portrays the character watching this i'm noticing a thing i don't think i picked up on the first time okay and it's that drive that desire for parental acceptance like even when you know your dad is a certifiable piece of human garbage like this guy you still just want that i'm proud of you steven yeah watch his face like look at his eyes and like this body positioning he's nailing it like this is so good i could get you posted to Bethesda. Bethesda? You didn't play one of those buggy fallout games. They need people with your kind of knowledge and experience. I'm needed here. I spent time in that type of research during the last war. Remember, I didn't like it. Like has nothing to do with it. You have a duty to the Force. What duty? What? What, coming up with new and better ways to wipe out life? I'm a doctor. My duty is to heal. Then heal humans. Steven, I know you're fascinated by these alien creatures, but they're a threat to humanity. and they always will be. Help your own kind. Life is life, whether it's wrapped in skin, scales, or feathers. Now, if you respected these beings instead of constantly trying to murder them, you'd appreciate that.

[20:07] To see you again, I'll give your love to your mother and your sister. I feel bad for Franklin. Like, yeah, that guy sucks. It's the first time I think we've felt bad for Franklin. Uh-huh. Dr. Franklin. Yes. Short of space, I'm afraid we're going to have to build these people in the infirmary. Absolutely not. It's a medical facility, not a damn barracks. Sergeant, would you please take your people through there? I'll be with you in a minute. Yes, ma'am. I'm a doctor, not a butler. You heard the commander, Starbots. Get it in gear. Move it, you mutant maggots. I feel like that guy's on Starship Troopers. The character to come in here and disrupt my operation I have sick people in these beds according to the records there are only three patients in the infirmary none of them too ill to be moved what's the matter with you Steven I've never seen you like this before dude there's that there's that skull yep yep it's my father the general, that's a lot of not empty that's a lot of empty space on those shelves liberator of the African bloc.

[20:57] Scourge of Geno 7 they're literally just like well I got a skull we can fill some of that space he's a father he always brings out this anger in me I can't control no matter how I try i always seem to want to hurt him you know the funny thing is i do love him i just can't talk to him i should be free by 1800 you want to meet me at the eclipse yes what is the eclipse you really do need that in primary space i will chat what's the eclipse that's new to me i know fresh air i know your hearts yeah and over the years yeah ben says over in our chat i do want to point this out he says i'm on franklin's side here his dad was being a bigot not an in your face kind of way but in a xenophobic way that leads down.

[21:34] A dark path i gotta tell you jeff bingo i i recognize that conversation that that franklin had with his dad yeah because i had that same conversation with mine right i've so my cousins have had the conversation with theirs or with the grandparents or like it just seems natural to me you know i love i love my folks but man the thing is they don't even realize their own bigotry yeah no they like they don't like it's not even in their conscience that it is being bigoted at all like it's just the way it is always the force first everything else a distant second we'd see news vids from the front wonder whether he was alive or dead it's gonna be hard they're telling us about the old the ending of the episode we'd see the news vids you're right yeah lost myself out in the stars he wasn't happy about it he didn't talk to me for years when i joined earth force during the war he finally came around it's so interesting because he's describing that when he was gone all he did was think of i want him home i'm worried about him and i want him when he was home could never connect yeah i was scared of him maybe it's better i just let it go awful way to live talk to him stephen tell him what you feel no matter how hard it is i didn't and i lost the chance i say that's spoken by somebody with experience yeah.

[22:48] What are you saying? These troops are bound for Io, aren't they? I have to go back on duty. Wait a minute now. That was an easy way to back out, though. Just like, I don't know, he's a Marine. Seems to be an unusual number of Earth Force soldiers about this evening. We are all slaves to our histories. If there is to be a bright future, we must learn to break those chains. The only thing you can count on the Narn and the Centauri to do is break each other's heads. I fear you're right. Still, we must continue trying. For what it's worth, I hope you succeed. If you'll excuse me, the natives are wrestling. It is interesting because in a way it is the Centauri and the Narn, individuals that do break the chains. Is there something you want? What are you? I am Aminbari. Now please let me pass. Aminbari, huh? Aminbari don't have hair. This is human hair. Let's go. Yeah, don't. Don't. Please. I have done nothing to you. Your people killed my people on the line, bony. Now you parade around trying to look human. What you need is a good lesson. It's so gross back off cleist get out of my way this memory freak is an insult to all of us and i ain't had to do something about it in case you haven't heard the war is over get out of here drop him dodger drop him yeah.

[24:05] Dude she's the real deal jeff i just want to say uh we have somebody over here in our chat who's saying they've lived through attacks like this many times it makes it uncomfortable watching this scene for the rest of us may we always be a dodger and not somebody standing on the sideline with our phone recording you know may we always be that dodger yeah i just wanted to thank you language is a thing even though i can't quite figure why ambassador deland told me what happened who's ambassador deland the woman you helped she's an ambassador yeah it's kind of a big deal applies to mess up big time well you almost messed up yourself well it wouldn't be the first time i gotta go you stay out of trouble okay you know we watch this the first time we asked a lot like, is this a real analog to what the military is like? Look at that smile.

[24:47] Which is great but this has nothing to do with the military nowadays no this is a reflection on the discipline and lack of discipline that exists in clark's coach covered by flanking fire i mean earth alliance military earth force but specifically clark's right whole area's mind you'll need sappers with luck you could break through before they bring their big guns to bear even so you're going to take heavy casualties when you live in that oppression all the time when you have a little bit of freedom you freak out i feel like we're just seeing so easily they'd have done it themselves culture if you really want my advice call this whole thing off while there's still time they will listen to you i'm very busy steven what do you want what i said i i didn't mean yeah he did raise you to say things you don't mean now if you'll excuse me i've got work to do it's always later with you isn't it you are dismissed doctor yes sir yeah you can't really just dismiss folks i can't i mean i'm part of the military i want to start i want to start doing that in life say that to your kid you are dismissed daughter she better go yes sir just like stephen did it's not an easy question except maybe without the attitude i suppose the mambari consider me one i love that he had the attitude barry are not your own flesh and blood i am really liking dr franklin there's only one truth about war people die killing is part of a soldier's job we can't deny it we can only live with it and hope the reasons for doing it are justified.

[26:10] Interesting shot through the board with the tactical stuff general your son is one of the finest doctors i have ever served with he will bend or break every rule there is if there's a life to be saved or pain to be saved that also includes rules like um don't hurt the kid uh follow the parents wishes don't sleep with your patients you know little things he'll break them Oh, he's really good at his job. Yeah, sometimes. A man who won't stand up for his own principles is not really a man at all. I don't know if that's the thing that makes you a man or not. Right. Of course, there were times when my principles and his clashed. Oh, we got mad. We argued. Really? We fought. Because I don't imagine Rance Howard fighting with Brucey here. Neither of us could be anything other than what we were. But we never stopped talking. I love how he's talking to the general as if they're equals or he's even a little. Like he's just telling this story like it's been a long day, He's not accusing him of anything. He's just saying, here's my experience with my dad, man. Here you go. That's funny.

[27:26] What a wingman.

[27:30] He didn't skip a beat. Look at that. Lou knows what's up. He even gave him the pat on the shoulder as he walked by. what'd you like to see first good restaurant okay and then your quarters yeah there it is, dude she's great dude she laid it down from the start listen listen women specifically can i please talk to you for a moment michael garibaldi notwithstanding men are simple creatures just tell them what you want please just say it if you want to do that then just do that no need to beat around the bush also if you're a guy and you do that stop it just say what you want make it easy don't make anybody guess yes i want to go do this and then do that you got it let's make that happen i can have that right now let's go somebody at this point what does garibaldi think is gonna happen you know like this is it not bad ben says so the moral of this episode twice now is be dodger yes Something hot would be nice. Okay. Although a calf wasn't exactly what I had in mind. All right, come on, man. Oh, my God. This is hard to watch. It is. It is. Garibaldi, come on, dude. Nope, stop it. Stop. Stop. Nope. Garibaldi to Welch. Lou, rip him apart. Hey, Lou, what's it going out there? Oh, everything's nice and quiet here, Chief.

[28:50] The sound of kissing in my headphones, though, is quite disturbing. What? Can you imagine the Foley artist in there trying to just...

[29:01] That is awful. The foley on that is awful. Maybe I'll slow down here for just a minute, okay? Did I miss something? No, no, it's just, uh, it's just, uh, look, my personal life's been a little strange lately. Now's not the time, Michael. Stop. Complicated is more like it. Stop, Mikey. Look, there was this woman on Mars. Everybody collected like, Garibaldi, stop. Stop. No. Don't do it. Lucendian security. Abort. Abort. Abort. It hit me hard. then i met this other lady even in the chat they're like no shut up garibaldi stop talking now dodger put something in his mouth stop him to my back i have this habit of messing up when it's important yeah this is about relationships it isn't about you it isn't about now it's about things that have dodger just get up and go go can we note can we note what he just said though in the midst of all that he said track this go beyond this episode yeah i have a habit of messing up when it's really important dude can we that's a podcast episode all by itself of all the times garibaldi messed up when it was really important yeah he does yeah there's a long track record of it at least he knows it about himself right looking at you season five garibaldi season four garibaldi some three was it in some of three as well yeah and.

[30:20] Right now god you think maybe maybe you and me maybe look at the look on dodger's face right she's just like i don't want to blow again by moving too fast for once in my life i want to think things through no hey garibaldi what do you think about prunes because that's what you're dealing with right now how's the new defense grid coming should be fully installed by tonight it's quite impressive pulse cannons interceptors mind launchers and a tracking system three times faster than an old one general wasn't kidding when he said we could take on a warship all right i have a question and and chat i'm glad for you guys to chime in on this one why are they getting all these upgrades is this is this uh franklin's like gift for putting them up for a few nights that seems a little overdone earth force is sending all this out to really beef up babylon five like what are you think what's you know the answer to this no no no but like this was a surprise to sheridan why like this would be a conversation that they would have been having for a while hey we're gonna send all this stuff out we're gonna have this we're doing this this all is coming by a surprise.

[31:19] Well, I think this is the mistake that the Clark administration made. They put Sheridan out there thinking, oh yeah, this guy gets it. He'll play ball. And then they left him out there instead of being like, let's do some check-ins. Let's keep you plugged in. Let's let you know what's going on. They let Sheridan start making his own mind up, having his own ideas, starting to observe things for himself instead of constantly being propagandized into whatever it is he's supposed to be doing. Babylon 5, as far as Earth Alliance is concerned, is a military outpost. It is a staging area. And here they're setting it up for that. And that's what they plan on using it from now on. And he's assuming that Sheridan's going to be cool with it because he's like, yeah, that's cool. This is what's coming down the chain of command. I'm all for it. Yeah.

[32:01] Uh it seems weird to me but if they were going to do that i would almost expect steve home sending more of these groups to babylon 5 over the next bunch of seasons yeah make it more regular i'm sorry for dismissing you like i did yesterday but i was angry but nevertheless you have no right to call me a murderer my god steven i'm your father and your superior officer do you have so little respect you don't get to do both right now respect right then what is it about us the way that we talk to each other actually the way that we don't talk to each other and it drives me crazy sometimes especially when when i don't know if i'll ever see you alive again there it is oh there it is i like the subtitle there mellow music every soldier lives with death son quit, waving it off man just engage we forget that our loved ones must live with it too steven you don't i'm not finished good for you man good come on son i love you dad there it is I always have, and I always will. It's the thing the Sheridans never did. Exactly. No matter how much we argue, or we fight, or we talk, or we don't talk. Is he piercing his cold heart? Nothing will ever change that.

[33:17] There it is. Okay, okay. Oh, look at that. He could only do that once his son wasn't looking at his face. I care, Baldy, for a security slug, you are a lousy liar. I just... No, no, it's all right. I don't want it. All of a sudden. Hey! What the hell are you doing, air boy? This guy. Hey, I'm sorry. Let me buy you another one. If that's not good enough, we can take this outside. Outside the station? Why wait to go out? I like that he blocked it, and then he got his head. Battle call! Battle call! What was that? He was just waiting for an excuse to swing on the light. I may have watched a little too much. The lens all that's missing is somebody trying to carry two shot glasses through.

[34:10] That's great jeff i'm gonna say something that's probably gonna get me excommunicated from the entire star trek community okay so if we wind up having to cancel our trip well i feel like what you're about to say i'm gonna put a stamp of agreement on.

[34:23] Can you imagine kira narice had actually been cast with the actress that plays dodger oh i wasn't gonna say that no i'm gonna say that like nana's great listen nana is great all right much respect for her by season seven but nana was never scary i never felt like nana could really fight right he i feel like she could have led a resistance cell yeah and stirred up some stuff i don't know this to be true i just i have an echo of a memory of it but i think that her actual the actor her full-time job but she's a stunt person yeah wouldn't be surprised i think i'm remembering that but it shows yeah she's got presence yeah everything i mean but she's got that emotion she she i mean like like she's sitting there when she's just just um dressing down garibaldi for like she's like look i just wanted to get my rocks off and what i'm like dude i believe that you know it makes me wonder though that like if we put this actor in with the kind of directing that star trek gets get in your box and do these things i wonder if she'd be able to do this yeah yeah she also doesn't strike me as a shakespearean actress no which is what na na and like the vast majority of other star trek folks are they kind of hit the theater for their stuff No, I thought you were going to say that this is how you do a group fight and still keep it like sci-fi corny.

[35:49] I think star trek cannot there's a lot of great stuff going on in this particular fight it's just i mean you almost expect to hear the spaghetti western like with a gun going ricocheting off a spittoon somewhere you want to see somebody go on the bar and they slide the right the bar while they're hitting all the drinks off and then the bartender the other guy got behind the knocked out bartender just taking drinks every now and again but also with what what was his name serrano jones or whatever cyrano jones right yeah jones walking through might be one of the greatest if not the greatest moment of the original series it's the greatest fight scene no question so good it's so good it's the one thing that was missing from that new space nine episode where they went back to that episode was when they got in that fight they play the episode branson.

[36:39] I'm just messing with jack now y'all, Oh, look at that kick.

[36:48] Get back to your quarters, grab your gear, and be at launch point at 2200. Move ahead. The chat's keeping me honest. She's just an actor, not a stunt person. Pat Tolman, she's both. You all right? I know this sounds nuts, but I'm actually going to miss you guys. Take care of yourselves, okay? Will do, Airboy. Will do. Who's that? What the... Private Dermond! Never know what you missed. Give her five minutes, man. Just give her five minutes, dude. It'll make her a better soldier. Yeah, Ben points out she does keep that date, after all, in the end. She does. Yeah, she does. Can confirm. General, can you tell us the results of the battle? Our troops have gained control over the fortress at Matak. Most of the leaders of the rebellion have either been killed or captured, and we expect the complete surrender of all the rebel forces very shortly. Yes! Then you consider this a victory. Chief, something just happened. First casualty reports are in from Lockdoor. You said you wanted to see him. Yeah, here it is. President Clark is expected to congratulate General Franklin on this spectacular victory. So would he know large at large, like his real name, to like see it on the list? Yeah, I don't know, but he'd know the kids.

[38:12] Not sad to see him go. Oh, dude. That is heartbreaking. And for literally nothing. This never comes up again. This isn't like a strategic point that tips the scales. 25,000 people went out there and a good chunk of them died for a piece of real estate that turns into nothing.

[38:39] It's sick. you know what i think honestly from a story standpoint might have i don't even say been better i'm not going to question jms although this wasn't a jms episode this was deterioro to tell you i'm not going to question larry to tell you either but if winfield had died and then that gives us reason for franklin on the stems the chat's been tearing up the stem i've seen several times they're talking about different theories about why franklin starts on the stems but you know so franklin finally gets his dad to say i'm proud of you and you're your own man and whatever and then this happens like that would i'm curious as to why that what like were they leaving it open for paul winfield to return later possibly or right like what what was that even though he doesn't you know he doesn't so yeah there's no reason for that and it's hard because like i this episode does two things it does a couple of things but like and it's talking in the chat sarah brings it up in there but when we talked about it the first time.

[39:32] Around to the cost of war right it's it's actual these are people people that have stories people that have relationships people that go way back that have all these things and that there's that cost and then the militarization or attempted militarization of babylon five like that's what this episode did i'm thinking about we're in episode 10 i don't think we get like the really heavy heavy centaur narn war stuff till around like 20 yeah yeah it's really late in the season and so it's like the placement of this episode is just weird right like hey the war just started we we left on this big high note and now hey let's remind you war sucks yeah and then we're gonna go do some other stuff for quite a while people in the chat are pointing out you know i was just saying it'd be something if franklin died franklin's dad died that part of the point is is the generals don't.

[40:22] Die the top brass doesn't die ever it's the grunts that do yep and that that's a really good point i was thinking more from an emotional standpoint franklin and his own personal story but from a from a messaging standpoint and a and an image standpoint yeah it's it's you're right yeah you guys are absolutely right out there um i often wonder jeff how now the thing is we didn't know that this was all for nothing when we watched this the first time we did not know we look at it now and we go of course it's all for nothing i mean what what point does this have at least on the war that we're aware of maybe there's other stuff happening that we're just unaware of you know yeah yeah i can i can at least acknowledge that but let's just assume there's not right how many war how many battles that have a significantly high cost actually are no account battles in war like in real life i don't i don't i have no idea of how to measure that or metric that i'm not an expert enough in war history.

[41:12] Detail out different battles and stuff to tell you if it was important or not but it strikes me in war you're going to have a lot of skirmishes that really don't affect the outcome of the war at all in one way shape really didn't matter but they're going to have a high casualty count yeah which all of that just points to the futility and stupidity of war black sabbath war pigs right says it really well where it just talks about you know the the people who start the wars aren't the ones fighting the wars yeah and i think it was in the our first watch i quoted rush quite a bit in their song territories i won't do that again but you quoted rush in our first one i know it's weird really once once once or twice it's kind of a thing i don't never noticed so it's not bringing up black sabbath instead but it's uh but it's a thing like it's people in board rooms you know and stuff they start wars and then like you said the generals don't die it's that kid who needed a shot, needed a chance, didn't have another way out of the poverty and the nightmare that his family's probably been living in for a long time. And like, this is a shot, you know? Been in a couple months, he's excited, he's going to do a thing, dead for nothing.

[42:20] Dumb. Just dumb. Did you have any other message stuff you wanted to talk about on this one that we didn't hit during the watch itself? Yeah, we do. We need to boil this down. what are the deep moral messages right what's the mirror to society can we just erase having hope that things can be better in the future onto this maybe there's something in there this did that which might be a mirror to society right now maybe there's something there um there there's a few i imagine we probably hit some of these at least in our first watch did you listen to the messages portion from our first watch i know sometimes we do sometimes we don't did you do i sped up through it but i did i did check in on quite a bit of it life is life whether it's wrapped in skin scales or feathers yeah we definitely talked about that says yeah yeah i think it says enough all by itself we don't need to comment on it further um i loved this line.

[43:10] And this happened between Franklin and his dad. Was it Franklin and his dad? Yeah. Nope. Nope.

[43:15] Nope. Nope. This was Sheridan and Papa Franklin. Sheridan's talking to him and he says, we finally realized that we can, that we can never be anything other than what we are. But no matter how much we fought, we never stopped talking and we never stopped loving. I got to tell you, Jeff, that is the death knell for where we're going to, where, where things are happening. And I, I do feel like I'm seeing this happen in our world today where people stop talking and people stop loving or have stopped loving. And they're just two people on two different sides that will never come eye to eye on something. And it, it really is unfortunate because the way you make it through is by never, I'm, I'm committed to not, uh, I'm committed to loving here and I'm committed to not talking by the way that takes both sides being committed, not just one side. Yeah. When only one side's committed to that, it doesn't work anymore, right? But with both sides, you got to have both sides committed, no matter what we're going through. As long as we're both committed to this, we can make it happen, right? We can solve this. We can work this out on some level. And to be clear, that doesn't mean you don't do it until the other person commits. Sometimes you have to blindly commit for the other person and wait, and it might not happen, but you have to know that you did what you could do. And that, and that goes all the way from politics at the highest level to personal relationships all the way down. But the one that got me, the one that I loved, and I don't know that we got this in the first one. Maybe we did. I don't know. Dillon.

[44:44] Of course it's Dillon in the early seasons. It's always Dillon, right? She says, we're all slaves to our histories.

[44:52] If there is to be a bright future, we must break those chains. Yes. Put that on the wall somewhere. Yeah. We are all slaves to our histories. Statement of fact, it's where we are, right? This is just, we're slaves to this. But if there's to be a bright future, we must break those chains. The idea we can't, that's the hope I get out of this, the hope that things can be better in the future. We can break those chains.

[45:19] And I think the hope, like in this one, she sets the stage for it, but the rest of the series shows us that those chains can be broken. And I'm thinking specifically about Londo and Jakar. Oh, say it, Jeff, go. Well, because there's that one incredible line near the end of the series when Jakar looks at Londo, he's like, my people will never forgive your people, but I can forgive you. Yeah. Right. And that, and in that moment, the chains were broken. There was another moment with Jakar. Jakar, you're the hero. You got rid of this guy. You need to take charge of all of us.

[45:53] Nope. Because the way we did it before, we cannot do it again. Yeah. He stopped and he broke the chains. We look at it in a microcosm within this episode, right? Franklin, Papa Franklin, slave to his history, slave to how he's always been, right? Little Franklin, slave to his family life of how he's always been, right? If there is to be a bright future, we must break those chains. You know when things broke in this episode was when they talked and they loved and Papa franklin goes you're your own man and i'm proud of you yeah he got a little teary-eyed they hugged it out you know they broke the chains something broke in that moment where they were how things had happened up to that point gone it was gone you know up to that point they were acting and reacting out of the basis of their history up to that point and they said no more we're not it was it you know just no more we're not going to do that anymore that that chain is broken yeah we're on except for your mom and sisters that's still a thing well that was a wink wink nudge that was a haha yeah you know but still but you're exactly right and and to tie it together and you did but it took franklin committing to talking to listening and to loving whether his dad was going to or not if his dad never came around and he just flew off and we never never saw papa franklin again dr franklin gets to go to bed every single night and say you know what i did what i could i said the things I needed to say. I did it. Yeah. Yeah.

[47:19] Daddy did. Daddy did. Good call on that. Good messages. I think with this episode specifically, it's kind of all messages. Like it's a really awkward thing that's trying to be big with action and funny and all these things, but it's just really, really big socio-political messages and very personal one-on-one messages that are actually the same. So wrapping that up with the episode itself, Brent, you get to rank this bad boy in our objectively correct, immutable, definitive, ranking of the second episode, all the episodes of the, of all the episodes in the second season, Babylon five, we've got nine, uh, listed in here right now. And I think I'm going to take a guess. I'm going to list the bottom five of these. So I'm not sure it's going to crack the top. If I, if I'm wrong, we can hit those, but, uh, uh, holding up the bottom right now. Number nine is the long dark. Number eight is a spider in the web, then Revelations. At number six, a distant star in the fifth place is Points of Departure. Where, Brent, are you placing Krapas?

[48:28] So to kind of kick off this little bit of discussion, actually, I want to answer a question that was just asked over in our chat. Yeah, I saw it as well. It says, what do you think changed from the first to second watch to not hate Franklin here this time? A big piece of it is we know Franklin from season five, and we're seeing him now through those eyes. We know where he goes. we're not left with long dark franklin we were dusting off distant star franklin at this point so the first time yeah yeah so i think that's a big piece we we know where he goes also i'm not watching this episode and this is a big thing this is a big change because i'm gonna tell you jeff let me guess this episode and our original ranking was i'm gonna say bottom six exactly bottom six it was number 16 was it okay we'll do math works so it was way down there this is this is uh if this gets down to number 16 again it's going to be because of the strength of the episodes we know are still to come here in season two yeah right this i said at the beginning this episode was better in my memory than it was watching it the first time this episode is better watching it the second time than it was the first time yeah and i think a lot of that is because we know where this fits in the overall story we know that.

[49:44] It's a self-contained episode so we're not looking for what does this mean we're not looking for oh how's this going to relate to the narn centauri war and the shadows we're not looking for any of that it's just we're allowing this episode to be this episode we're connecting with franklin and his dad we're connecting with dodger who we know comes back in season five we're connecting with kefir in this one single episode that we ever get to connect with like i kind of like this one in a lot of ways we fall in love with large and his little buddy half pint all over again um and there's some hardcore messages in this one yeah there really are you know it's a it's a good episode like this is this is not a bad episode of season two i agree it's not you know in fact i would i'm looking at these ones that you listed the bottom five episodes so far and i'm going there's only one that i would say is a bad episode so far and there were still redeeming qualities in that one there was and the rest of them i'm like okay here's the really good episodes and the rest of them are just okay like it's not a bad half of the season like we've thought for the last three years right so that being said jeff i'm glad you did the bottom five because this is a this is a better episode it's a good episode is it better than long dark yes is it better than spider in the web yes is it better than revelations god yes is it better than the distant star yeah it is is it better than points of departure the season opener that i love i like jeff it might be really.

[51:09] Is it better than a race through dark places no it's not so it's either our new number five or our new number six and jeff and my completely objective opinion that's 100 correct and and definitive this is our new number five wow it is i think this is better than points of departure points of departure listen a lot of respect for that episode you're introducing us to a new guy that really is the point of that particular episode there's a few other things you know ovanova gets gets the the promotion we're changing some stuff over but as far as the messaging what this episode is doing what it's saying where it's going all of that's not even where it's going it's just it's a self-contained episode this is a in and of itself of its own uh uh quality of its own merit this is a better episode than points of departure but it's not better than the other four that are above it so number five for right now i do suspect it will drop just because of the quality of the episodes we know are still to come for the next 12 episodes right yeah like this is.

[52:12] We are at the top of the uh the climb of the roller coaster right now this i mean i'm doing the math here this could wind up back at number 16 just based on everything that is absolutely it's possible this could wind up back at 16. Yeah when you look at all the episodes in this season i mean wow wow i don't disagree with you and even if i did it wouldn't matter because you get to rank this thing so we're wrapping it up tying a bow on grow posts and now we're going to start rocking through the rest of the second season starting next week with an episode called all alone in the night.

[52:43] Do you remember what you predicted what this episode was going to be about? I don't, but I wound up having to look it up. So I got it. This is the war that has, the war has basically separated everybody. Everybody's doing their own thing. It's depressing. They're not talking to each other. And in my mind, it was like, there's like, here's Londo in his quarters doing his thing and Jakar in his quarters doing his thing and Brucie and Ivanova in the office or command central doing their thing. And you know corwin and is doing his thing lou and and um zach maybe having a drink at the bar like that's really what we're seeing in this particular episode because that makes them all alone in the night how about you do you remember your prediction i thought this was going to be a very londo focused episode and that we were either going to be he was going to find himself being all alone he was going to be all bloviating and loud and doing all the stuff around the station he He needed to keep the war going, but he would be in his own private time, just all alone. And he either was going to start really questioning what he was doing. You asked me when I was listening to it, um, you mean he's like, it would set up the redemption of Londo Malari. I'm like, well, maybe not the redemption, but the question of Londo Malari. It's becomes a thing for you at this point, but he started doing that or he would lean in and my quote was he goes total Darth Londo.

[54:09] Is it's neither of those things that we thought it was going to be in fact it's a whole different thing all together and we're going to find out all about it we're going to watch it, talk about it right here next week thanks for being here with us this has been a really good time, I'm really glad that we watched this episode this is another one that this is why we're doing this for the second time so thanks for being on this ride with us if you haven't already please subscribe wherever you're listening to us wherever you're watching us make sure that you get notifications of all the new stuff that comes out, leave a comment Leave a review. Hit those stars. Do something like that. Or the one thing you can definitely do we love, we appreciate, is to share this show, share it with somebody. Let's grow our community. And the best way to do that is through word of mouth. So until next time, we'll see. Hey, Jeff. Yes. What's going on, Brent? So I was thinking. What? Just stop it. Just stop it. Stop what? Jeff, this is what we do. Where in the stroking age do you get. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. Won't let me finish doing the thing every single time.

[55:22] You know what no one else could see that i could see is i could see you that entire time i could watch you jeff's just over here like playing around no no picking his nose whatever guys he i mean it was 0.2 seconds he turns around and like jumps right back into it well done i was one the whole time. I never, I never stopped. I never stopped. That was impressive.