Hunter, Prey | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. 5, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. Hey, Brent. My name's Jeff Akin. It's good to see you. Hey, Jeff. Good to see you too. How you doing? Not too bad, man. That's good. You remember a while ago when you and I were Star Trek podcasters? I do. That was a little while ago, but you know what happened? We watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and that changed everything.

[0:55] It did? Yeah, it did. it changed it all for us it did so much so we like took the star trek thing out of our deal all together which it never should have been there in the first place right exactly that's part of the journey that's what we're doing now we're just watching babylon 5 we're watching it for the second time and we're catching all those really cool things there's no way we could have caught the first time around but you know what we are still doing jeff what's that we're still searching for those sci-fi messages because that thing we learned as star trek podcasters is sci-fi specifically does messages really well it is uniquely positioned to be able to speak to our society and and show us ourselves show us show us a mirror of ourselves it can give us hope that things can be better in the future it can teach us how to be better human beings to one another and that's what we're looking for in babylon five all the ones that we missed the first time around.

[1:43] Speaking of the first time around this is not our first time around jeff nope we have seen the entire show if this is your first time around you're listening to us you're watching us all that sort of stuff this is not the show for you all right go back to jeff and i's first show babylon 5 for the first time catch us there because we really want you to go through the show as unspoiled as you possibly can be if you don't care about spoilers then fine stick around because from this point forward this show will be full of spoilers everything is on the table for jeff and i to talk about from any point in the timeline from anywhere in the entire franchise guys, not just Babylon five, but crusade, the movies, the books, everything is fair game for us to discuss. We'll see if we find any of that stuff this week, Brent, we're watching Hunter pray for the second time. Do you remember what you thought about this one? The first time around, I remember liking this episode quite a bit, but I think I also only remember half the episode.

[2:37] I remember so crates. Yep. Absolutely. Getting hunted down. That's what I remember. in October. I don't remember anything else about the episode though. And, and because I know, cause I spoiler alert, I listened to our first episode. What you did now. I know what the other stuff is. I'm like, oh, that happens in this episode. I had no idea. Actually, I even forgot some of that stuff. Cause like we said, JMS is doing such a great job of laying groundwork now to where it just becomes a part of your consciousness. You don't even know where it happened anymore. And so there's some really cool stuff that happens, but really it's just the Socrates thing. I liked it, but I do remember my overall impression as I continued through the series and really up to today was good episode ultimately doesn't matter though.

[3:21] Like good episode doesn't matter, but a good one-off one-off episode. I'm very interested to watch this episode again through the lens of knowing where everything goes and seeing what happens because I know we had some comments that I'm like, Oh, anyway, how about you, Jeff? That's pretty cool. I can't wait to hear about him. I remember two things about this episode. I remember the doctor. So crate stuff also, but two other things. I remember a Nutri-Grain bar and I remember, you know what though? That might actually be walkabout. No, I'm pretty sure in the Nutri-Grain bar is this episode. Okay. Cause I remember we get a lot of Garibaldi and Franklin together in this one. Okay. And then I remember the just humiliating again, to use my kids language, cringe.

[4:10] The cautious ship thing that happened that was just awful and looked so horrible but i remember enjoying this episode quite a bit the dr so crate stuff was cool and i think i liked the uh, the franklin and garibaldi stuff too well jeff that's a lot of what we think we remember about the show but as i mentioned i went back and listened to our first episode i know what we actually said you have reviewed the first record yes would you would you like for this we need a gavel sound here right to read into the record the stupidity of you and i here we go here's what i said oh first of all prior to actually talking about the episode we were in the spot where we were uh reading reviews which jeff i believe we've got some new ones we might yeah i think we've got some new ones got to work those in pal but there we had we had somebody right in and and i'm only bringing this up because i feel like it's a good time to reissue this as a warning a person had written in and i'm sorry i didn't i didn't write down that person's name so sorry if you're listening i'm so sorry uh but they said that they were they were following along so they were watching the episode and then listening to us watching the episode listening to us right.

[5:21] Fortunately this time around we're doing both together in the same package so that might be a little more helpful but i i said then and i'll i'll say it again now i have done that with other podcasts that i listen to mission log being one of them a few others tales different different and things like that. Beam me up. Well, I was part of being me up, but that same kind of idea.

[5:41] And I know what it is when you like get an episode behind, you didn't have time to watch that episode or maybe it's just not one you like a whole lot or something like that. And then you don't, now all of a sudden you have two episodes you got to watch. And then you have three episodes you have to watch because you just, you know, life got busy. And then the next week you were sick or you went on vacation or whatever. Now you're four episodes behind and then you wind up just trailing off because you get so far out of it. And my, the thing I want to say to folks is, is if you find yourself in that spot, don't stop and catch up, just jump in with where we are. Yeah. Just, you can go back and catch the other stuff. It's evergreen. It'll, it'll still be there. Just catch up with, just, just join us right where we are. It'll be fine. You'll, you'll, you'll be, you'll be just fine. So don't, don't let that be the thing that, that makes you fall off. Anyway, just thought I should reissue that warning. Cause it feels like appropriate for where we are here. Jeff, I loved this episode. Really? Okay. I said, I said, this is a top five, maybe even a top three.

[6:39] Wow. Really? But it was a lot of fun. Now, ultimately when I placed this, cause I got to place this in the ranking that, that, that time I put it in at number four. So not quite top three because the top three are just fairly untouchable. Right. So I'm, I'm eager to see where this one lands at the end of today's episode as compared to like where, where we were the first time around. You know what I mean? Yeah. Now, you would have placed it much lower because you were not a big fan of this episode. Oh, I was not. You were very meh. You're like, it's fine. Like, my memory of it, of like, yeah, it was a good episode, good one-off episode, but ultimately it doesn't matter. That was like you the first time around. Okay. Me, the first time around, was like, yeah, this is awesome. So I don't know what happened in my memory that we did that. But the guy playing Socrates, the guest actor, killed it for you. He did. He killed it for you. That and the CG in this episode. I totally remember that part Now you remember the last episode It was so good It was so good, And so the one in this week just not I think a lot of that's because last week it was big You know and like there was distance and whatever This one gets so close up And it's just.

[7:51] So we had that You and I both had some new Corkboard red string Stuff to tie around which was really cool The thing is Jeff, there really wasn't a whole lot in this episode that really had anything to do with socrates which is the thing i remember about this episode yes because the other half of this episode is sheridan and kosh talking to each other i don't remember that at all oh yeah this is this is this is sheridan going like hey teach me what i need to know and kosh is like you're gonna kill legends and he's like why am i ready he's like no you're not ready we'll do what it takes to get ready help me get ready like like it's this whole big conversation between sheridan and caution.

[8:31] Super fundamental laying the groundwork also this is the one where we get indiana garibaldi yes with the hat the hat yeah the everyone's like no it's supposed to be like film noir and you're like no no no no that's harrison ford 100 film noir folks i get it okay fine but so so this is that episode we did not talk about the so crates that this doctor storyline very much at all outside of the idea of like so this guy was like franklin's teacher and how buddy buddy with all of his teachers like how much of a suck up was he in school because remember his teacher friend from the episode infection right ducky yeah and he's like this is my good friend i know him really really well like i was never i was close to some of my college professors i was not on a friend level with any of them though a little you know professional distance academic distance there so anyway so so there's that you said jeff well first of all you had some questions as to how much of the sinclair storyline was repurposed for sheridan here like we we didn't know and so i'm i'm not entirely sure what all that is so knowing what we know the original plan for for sinclair was supposed to be i'm interested to compare that to what's going to happen with sinclair in this one.

[9:45] That's unclear sharing and i mean in this one right you also said this you're not ready to say that kosh is a good guy yet really look at me yeah now i was all over that i i still am on that i still think the between the two the vorlons were the good guys and i'm correct objectively i don't care what jms says i'm correct yeah now we pulled out the cork board, and i said this i said what if the vorlons and the shadows.

[10:15] Are both organic tech what if jeff they're two sides of the same coin what if they were wow right nice nailed that one that's great and you said very eloquently jeff thingsies that was also your red string like things I also compared the shadows in vorlon to a pair of species in stargate that i couldn't tell you about back then yeah i still can't tell you about it yet because you haven't got there yet really there's still okay so i say that just to say you still have a lot more left in stargate to go because there's stuff like i'm making references you still don't even you're not even aware of it and we're so far into that series we are um i actually said this i called out kosh i said kosh is an energy-based life oh there you go yeah uh and i i kept saying he's an ascended one he's ascended right like he's ascended this is just his encounter suit this isn't it you said what if the ship.

[11:22] And kosh are one okay like a manifestation of sort of thing which remember how connected the ship remember when kosh died like the ship like flew into the sun right so good job on that one um and the last thing that i really oh the last thing i said about the episode itself and then i got something that you and i talked about which we we have some comeuppance we have to pay here jeff but the last thing i said was you remember how awesome deep space nine got when cisco shaved his head and grew the goatee i was like you know how awesome would it be if sheridan shaved his head and grew the goatee now he doesn't shave his head he gets actually a quite beautiful quaff he does but he gets that goatee he does get that go and everything gets i mean everything's awesome before then but i mean when you think of sheridan in your head right now do you think of goatee less sheridan or do you think of goatee church goatee sheridan at me too yeah absolutely what about you guys comment down below let us know which one is in your mind when you think about them okay oh also the other thing that's this is in my notes you know you and i had the rule of three back then yeah i had three you had three references to star trek this episode, i used all six yeah that was a normal thing for you to be like i'm taking this one of yours, i asked i asked if i could borrow that's nice i just never gave them back.

[12:44] You never needed them i never needed them i tried to avoid them but we had we had some great star trek like references like there was some some back and forth on this here's the other thing we got a little comeuppance to do here jeff yeah you know the ending joke where like like you start signing off and then like i interrupt you and we have some little quippy thing at the end usually we usually to try to try to tie it to the episode in some way or not right yeah well you and i, decided that this would be a good idea to try to do this like long game for the ending joke where very early in the episode, you cut me off and you got really awkward.

[13:22] Live on mic where you're like i don't like it when you cut me off at the end of the episode makes me feel like a jerk makes me feel like less of a person and i'm like i'm like oh i'm oh i'm so sorry man i'm not oh it got so weird listening to it really and he was like we should probably cut this out of the podcast which of course we weren't because it was a part of the bit for later on right we get all the way to the end and we and we do that you do the thing and i cut you i'm cutting you off again and then we quoted something out of the thing it did not land.

[13:53] It was not funny and it was not worth the awkward i would like to apologize to everybody out there who listened or watched that on youtube or you're on a podcast somewhere it just did not like it was funnier in our head because of the setup and then the payoff it did it just didn't land man it was not good when you're swinging you know 115 times right it's gonna miss sometimes you're gonna miss we get an a for effort on that one okay i'll take it like like we that we put some thought into how that one would go it just we needed it needed to bake a little more yeah needed to bake a little more jeff that's what you and i said during our first go around you've scoured the internet you've looked to see what jms himself has said about the episode is there anything you uncovered about this i feel like maybe there's not a ton out there but i could be wrong what is there jeff yeah it's not a lot on this one and uh but what there was was kind of interesting uh the the big one was you love this episode i was kind of meh on it this is one of jms's least favorite episodes in the whole series says it feels too conventional um he wrote things like franklin being able to read inscription on a watch from across the room he's like it just didn't just didn't check out and it's You mean he wrote something down and it just didn't land? Yeah, it just didn't land.

[15:20] You know what? We were prescient about what we did. That's what it was. Exactly. He says you can only blame the writer for that. That bastard.

[15:30] It's already a comment over in our council chambers. Wait, he called himself a bastard? He did. That's funny. You got to love that. You know how Sheridan is such a huge conspiracy theory buff? Oh, I mean, he never stops talking about it. It's such a foundational part of his character. Yeah, absolutely. So JMS claims that when Sheridan gets excited to locate and liberate Dr. Socrates, that's him embracing a conspiracy. So that conspiracy theory thing is foundational to the episode. I know our audio people can't see my face right now. They can feel it, though. Believe me, a look of derision and disbelief is settling pretty, pretty hardcore into my expression right now. Yes. I have one for the episode that I'll hit, but the final note I have is Bernie Casey is in this episode. No, no. Bernie Casey is, he plays a character... Oh, he plays Derek Cranston. He was the tri-lamb, right? The president of the tri-lambs in Revenge of the Nerds. He was the principal in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

[16:41] JMS says, Bernie Casey is a great person and a fine actor, and I have no idea what the hell happened to his performance in this episode. Oh, wow. So I'm very interested in seeing that play out. That's what I found. Can I, can I, can I just tell you, I heard us continually referencing Cranston. I honestly thought that this is the episode where Brian Cranston is like that lone rain, that soul Ranger who like dies at some point in the end. I thought that's who we were continually referring to. Not an actual character. Like, okay. It's a guy. It's a guy. He's the earth guy kind of pushing the, the soul crates thing. All right.

[17:22] So that's what I found Brent. So now that we've got that groundwork laid, what do you say? We watch this episode. Let's do it. For joining us for the first time here today, and even if you're not, let's tell you what is coming up after this. We're going to pull up the episode. We're going to watch it right here in real time with you. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see the cut-up version, the reaction video style thing. If you want to see the full and unedited version of this where Brent and I watch the entire episode and comment upon it, you can do that by visiting our patreon page that's patreon.com slash bad nerds and if you're listening to this on an audio podcasting app guess what you're not really going to get anything different than what the video folks get you're going to get the full audio of exactly how that goes we want you guys to be in that whole conversation at the end we'll have our conversation at the end for that so good news you're not going to miss anything but if you're just curious what Jeff and I look like, you can go over to our YouTube page and check out. I mean, we've got faces for radio and podcasting. A hundred percent. Yes, absolutely. Sorry. Let's do an episode. What? Sorry, everyone, by the way. Well, sorry for you. You're welcome for me. What can I say? You know.

[18:38] Actually, it's either you're welcome or we're sorry. It's one of the two. Whatever works for you. It'll be up to you. Everybody's got to type. That's great. Right? Let's do this. Accessing file. They went down to Bay 13. I can link it if you want. No, no, no. That's okay. I need to talk to them personally. and he's got a big time in garibaldi team nobody goes into why is corwin talking to garibaldi like he doesn't know who he is yeah excuse me sir you get that impression excuse me sir is okay i get he actually could be like hey mr garibaldi can i help you with something like i get it could be that i get garibaldi's maybe not really supposed to be in cnc he just comes up, willy-nilly anyway and corwin maybe this is corwin just exerting his own like i'm in command right now this is my cnc yeah what are you doing here get out of here ccnc corwin's cnc oh i like that oh that should be a t-shirt right that reads to me like i don't know who you are and you shouldn't be here cautious shit i mean i can imagine being so confused about what that was it's the first time look at that it's beautiful that is not good green i've never seen anything like it well this was a time too actors probably weren't accustomed to acting to a green screen.

[19:50] Yeah very normal thing nowadays you said about this you said this is a kind of propulsion this is why they weren't doing cg back then because it just wasn't ready i have an interesting comment about that we've run a few surface scans as much as we thought we could get away with jms says, the opening scene just isn't what it was supposed to be i i adore him for this next line the cgi just wasn't up to the task at the time. Oh, there you go. He says, the lettering on the ship fell flat. It looks like it was stenciled on. He says, the official production term for a scene like this is oopsie. Okay.

[20:34] I feel very validated by that i feel very validated in every criticism, agreed yes i don't know the jms would disagree with that but they authorized extreme sanction against a civilian god what does this guy know that's they didn't say isn't that fascism sending somebody here to court go against your own civilian population otherwise if he gives any resistance our orders to shoot to kill i mean if this guy was a danger an actual dangerous criminal maybe but you and i know what we know about this already and we know what we know about the government i couldn't imagine any president or authority authority figure being worried about what a doctor could share about them we've never experienced that at all in the last i don't know of them more than one yeah right all but maybe one or two of them right and everybody loves jelly beans mr president captain thank you we appreciate your cooperation so far i don't see any problem with dude's performance like he's just okay yeah government official yeah he knows all the right things to say he's the best there is the best there was the best there ever will be.

[22:01] We had three dead bodies half the station was trashed and a car and war machine was burning through decks and shooting at everything maybe he's not the same dr jacobs you knew anymore or maybe it's not the same earth you knew before there it is right there jeff just nailed it folks, jeff just nailed it we'll place guards behind us so that we'll be sure that he's not doubling back, I can see why JMS might have had a problem with his performance here. Right at this point, yeah. It's very wooden. These will help cut the odds down a little. I mean, all he's doing, all we're missing is him looking for the cue card. These guys are about as subtle as a brick through a glass window, but they know. Well, I mean, he's every just talking in every three words, but not like William Shatner did. Right. This is literally, I don't remember my lines or understand what I'm saying. Yeah, this is a da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da. I'm going to get paid. What time is dinner? When can I leave? I'm already done. Look at Jeff catching the beat. I got it. That's a drummer for you right there. Jerry Doyle is speaking in sentences. The other guy was speaking in little chunks. Just saw that ranger walk by. A little Garibaldi. There's something I remembered I have to do. What's the situation? My parents went away.

[23:25] I feel like as co-conspirators they should have a code or something other than, hey, the general sent me. I can see how this would appeal to the conspiracy theorist. Nia asked a good question. They're having this conversation in the open where anybody could just walk in. Yeah.

[23:51] I didn't know that that was a phrase that people used back then to disappear him he'll disappear him like i thought that was a relatively like in the last like five ten years people would say yeah i'm gonna i'm alive that person it's how i'm gonna disappear them it's how how ahead of the curve that one five was what are you talking about it's not my birthday the hell is take a clue there uh Uh-huh. Steve. You mind? Let's go. Wear something comfortable. We going out, bro. How do you... I don't know that I could today do a single frame of something like that. Right? Yeah. First, I don't get into down below a lot. Second, when I do, they don't see me. They see the badge. And third... I got this hat. Disguise. Guys, I know you say that's film noir. That is Indiana Garibaldi. He's got the jacket and everything. If he had a trench coat... Then maybe. Maybe I could go film noir. And if the thing went black and white, definitely. I'm with you. But... What's this? A fake pocket? You've been holding out on me. I actually really enjoyed his performance. He ripped it open to see if there's anything in there. Data crystal. You know how many pressure doors they're gonna have to burn through in order to check the whole area out? 47. Ah, 47! 47!

[25:11] Two years since i've been here kasha's never asked to speak to anybody uh tell him i'll be there as soon as i can i got a bite on the line i gotta go oh him yes i will stop everything anything i think we lost interest in the future when all the things we were told were coming finally got here wasn't what we thought it was going to be it's kind of like what jakar said to dr franklin's victim in distant star of you know like the future is not what you thought it was going to be i think that's a really big thing we you know i remember i made jokes about this on the stargate podcast when we'd go over the air date you know in the year 2000 like we watch that stuff on conan o'brien and this is what it's gonna be and it wasn't that stuff you know i mean, by 2025 we're growing up what were we promised right jetpacks hover cars no no it's 2015. 2015 is where marty mcfly went to the future yes we saw hoverboards self-tying shoes which they do have they're just not pushed out and marketed because nobody's going to get them self-drying jackets um fully automated robot you know nostalgia cafe waiters and waitresses.

[26:26] Almanacs of sporting things in the past like a weather a weather service that actually can accurately predict weather yeah all these things we have none of those things yeah hey by the way uh give the weather folks a break i mean next time your job involves predicting the future give us a call you know like maybe somebody should have labeled the future some assembly required, i like that that's a great line it is 10 000 credits on delivery i think i can arrange that You, you heard this and you're like, man, I should have gone for more. Yeah, exactly. He agreed too quickly. Could you help me to understand you? Do you love this? Can you help me to understand you? You loved that question. Can you help me do this? No, you're not ready. Well, can you help me get ready? In exchange of information, you do not understand.

[27:18] I love this whole sequence. I want to, because they're just talking about totally different things. Sheridan's talking about things, right? You tell me something about you. Where'd you go to high school? Who was your, you know, whatever. And Kosh is like, I'm interested in your fundamental being. And it's just, and Kosh is so right. Like, and that's the thing too. Who does truly understand themselves right i'm gonna guess eight people in history did like it's just a thing people don't have we seek we try to find i've gone on journeys trying to find that understanding and it's just it's so it's just so hard for us to see and and i think kasha is right like kasha is trying to say to sheridan you need to be at your full potential for what's coming.

[28:05] And you just ain't there man you're not there damn it what do you want what do you want from me what do you want ever since i got here i've had the feeling that the record shows you hardly ever went to council meetings until i showed up you pointed out uh no do you know how many council meetings kosh has been to since sheridan showed up yeah none one one of them he's been to one he also went to one with sher it was sinclair there's no don't think that much of yourself there pal right jeff jeff listen to his questions here okay listen to what sheridan is saying here and think of the in light of what we know about the shadows and the vorlons from lorian and all of that okay listen to this now you call me here why just to throw me out are we just toys to you just toys huh what do you want giants playing in a playground never ask that question dude he speaks so clearly right there i got a response out of you i will teach you about yourself.

[29:11] About you for what to fight legends yeah i feel like that was probably such a line jms had in his head for a long time yeah you know and i love it too because there's the there's one level of meaning where like fight legends like bruno sammartino and rick flair you know like these legends that are there and then there's the one of like legends like hercules and paul bunyan and you know just like these stories chuck norris chuck norris exactly i don't have time for this.

[29:47] Bad day i came here for two reasons chew bubble gum and kick ass i've had a bad day i'm in a bad mood i've had a bad headache all day long who am i jeff who are you don freaking mclean man yeah right yes this is his moment he's like you could have had this cranky the fragging data crystal before I start to get surly. Handed the Shruck over. At an early age, someone should have told you you can attract a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. Yes, sir. You're messing with the wrong person, Mr. Cranston. If you've turned my entire station upside down for nothing. Ambassador Kosh again requests permission to... Fine, fine. Tell him he can go. You know, this is incredible acting by Sheridan and Ivanova. Yeah. Not Bruce and Claudia. I don't understand that. Sheridan and Ivanova. Exactly. Our best to escort Ambassador Kosh off his own ship in search. So, is the non-human life form that it's registering, is it the actual ship? The ship. Not just Kosh, but the ship. Because it would almost have to get two life forms if it was just Vorlon and the ship.

[30:54] Ah, so the ship is the life form. I wonder why this never came up ever again. Because it's, at best, it's a piece, a tiny piece of a huge puzzle at best. I mean this is a lot of.

[31:11] Umph for a thing that doesn't matter one of our ships as soon as possible you've just scored a major victory for the good guys the good guys good guys don't call those next guys they also don't say for the greater good yet a conversation we also had the first time at least there's a chance we'll win so rent hunter prey for the second time in the books what do you got it's a fun episode i was right is this the greatest episode of the season no is it a top tier episode no is it a bad episode no no it's a fine episode he says this is his least liked episode that he's done one of his least favorite episodes that's got to be because he sees the technical flaws that by the way we also see and we're like yeah it's not great but it's fine cranston whatever the name of that actor was we've seen him do better yeah and i like what jms said what happened to his performance on this one no idea what we've seen him do better i didn't think that so crates, did terribly in this episode the way you seem to i get him this time i don't know what i was thinking the first time around but like watching him this time he's a fish out of water he's out of his depth he's an academic you know who like tools around with politicians and does medical exams and he's on the run and he's tired. I, I totally, I think it was a great performance. Jeff, I have a favor.

[32:38] I need you to clip something for me and send it to me as soon as you possibly can. Oh God. I need an MP3 of you saying what you just said right there, which is, I don't know what I was thinking and I'm going to put it on a hot key right over here. I don't know what I was thinking. That's almost good as this little cup that I got for you that I can, uh, Oh, bless my a little hard i feel like we made a much bigger deal about the sheridan cost stuff than it really warranted yeah the first time the first time around first time yeah but i also remember going through the first time you don't know what's warranted and what's not yeah and so the cost like all that cost if that seems to be the big story of what's happening so of course you're going to key in on that you know uh but i love here's the thing you know what i remember coming out of this is is we're going into like training sequences for sheridan kosh is going to be sending him on missions and teaching him all this sort of stuff which we know that's not what happens like caution sinclair barely has or sorry sorry i keep saying some part sheridan cost and sheridan barely have any interactions really going forward that we see yeah it's not really that there's that one where he takes them like into the.

[33:58] The weird spot and he hears all the singing and stuff like that but a couple little conversations there's one where sheridan like fights him in the corridor and kosh like blast him with energy.

[34:10] But i'm not even sure if it was this kosh that might have been the other kosh yeah like i can really see coming out of this episode thinking man there's this is setting us up for some great stuff, and then it does but it's different stuff than we thought it was this sets us up for the sheridan on zaha doom stuff and yeah all that big stuff but like yeah what we thought was coming no not at all no not at all not at all so yeah like this episode good not great probably better probably better than a lot of what we got so far in this season but it's just a one-off episode it is yeah last week you described access sacrifice as it's a filler episode that's what this is this is too but i don't like i would laundry episode i wouldn't i wouldn't change the channel right this is the episode that's on i'd probably even stop folding laundry and just kind of watch it not intently but it's on watch it yeah yeah absolutely how about you what would you what'd you get out of it that's a good time but i think the biggest point the biggest like most significant thing in the whole episode was the end kosh agreeing to help hide the doctor oh yeah like We saw in, you know, like. Because I'm sorry, that implies an off-screen conversation between Sheridan and Kosh. And an agreement. Where they set that up. Yeah. Hey, I'm thinking this. I'm just saying Kosh is like, yes. And then he does it.

[35:35] Right. Where when he was asked about the Centauri and the Narn, he's just like, let me do their thing, man. They're already dead. Like, whatever. With Deathwalker. Yeah, already gone. Like, he just, he's not going to get involved. But the fact that not only did he get involved, but like to an extreme extent.

[35:51] That says a lot. I never picked that up before. Did you get any messages out of this one, Jeff? You know, we talked about it during the episode, and it's just that idea of understanding who you are. We talk about this so many times in our first time viewing, but the concept of be, do, and have. There's the things you have, there's the things you do, and there's who you actually are.

[36:13] And I love the way, I love that scene so much where Sheridan is essentially talking about the things they do, and kosh is like no this is about who you are and i will help you understand who you, are so then you're ready to do this other stuff that's something we could all benefit from is taking that moment it's not who we what we do it's not our position it's not any of those things it's not the the cool coffee mug that i have or whatever it's who i am inside but did you get anything message wise i did and it was it was one and i feel like this is one of those and i feel like i've had a few of these lately like this is fresh this needs a little bit of baking, you know i mean it's still a little unbaked but i think there's some really good, raw dough to this one garibaldi this one comes from garibaldi in this episode he says maybe somebody should have labeled the future some assembly required that was great, you know when you think about the hope for the future jeff we see star trek and it's just there.

[37:19] We see a lot of other stuff and it's very dystopian and we didn't make it we didn't get there i'm not going to say what babylon 5 is or isn't doing or the babylon 5 is that this is how we get there or anything like that i'm not i'm not going to say that but i do think it's a very astute observation that you don't just arrive at utopia you don't just get there you've got to build towards it. You've got to earn it by changing, by growing, by becoming something more than what you were. Hey, by the way, this step that I just took, that doesn't mean that I'm there at the end. But I am a little bit closer than I was the day before. And we have to build that idea of like, hey, that future that you want. Listen, folks, that future that we want, that sci-fi future, that future where we're not divided based on groups, kind of what we talked about last week, Jeff. We're not divided based on our groups, based on our demographic things. Resources are no longer a commodity and a limited thing that we're not in a scarce society anymore. It's a post-scarce society, right? To be able to get to that sort of a spot where we're players on the, on the intergalactic stage, or at least the, the inner, inner, not intergalactic, maybe intra galactic. Okay. Yeah, that works. Is that the, is that the right word? I guess. And that's in that sense, um, because we're ready to be out there and to join them. Um, if we want to get there, we're going to have to make it happen.

[38:48] We're going to have to earn it. we're going to have, we're going to have to do the things it takes to be that we're not just going to get there. You know, I had a, uh, an old sort of mentor of mine who would talk about, and I think this, I think this came from Joe Gibbs, who's a great football coach, wrote a book. I want to say it was him. I could be wrong. Don't quote me, but he would talk about the will to versus the want to, you know, everybody wants to make the team. Everybody wants to play professional football. Everybody wants to fill in the blank. Okay. I know there's a lot of people. I don't really want to play professional football, fill in the blank for what it is you wanted to do. Okay. Everybody wants to be there. Everybody wants the lead in the play. Everybody wants to be the, say it's the singer, the Taylor Swift, but here's the question.

[39:40] Do you have the will to do what it takes to get there? Do you have the will to be disciplined and to put in the work and to put in the practice? Do you have the will to eat the right kinds of foods and to fuel your body in the right way? Do you have the will to get up at five o'clock in the morning to do the workouts that you have to do to get your body there? Do you have the will to be able to do it? Because we all have the want to, but do you have the will to look? We all want the great future. we all want the unified future but the question is do you have the will to make it happen because.

[40:16] And i love this jeff i love this the future is some assembly required we've got to make the future, make it what you want it to be jms has a little bit to say about that as well oh does he and i think what's great about i want to read what he says here when he talks about it in the script book but okay you are the postscript to what he says okay he says uh what saves this from being one of those episodes i wish i dropped off the end of a pier the down below i'm sorry i like that he has the word episodes as a plural right there's more than one i've got a couple i'd really just love to just drop kick into the ocean it says it's the uh conversation between richard biggs and jerry doyle where they discuss the future has nothing to do with plots conspiracies it has everything to do with simple humanity, with the things we all long for and never get in the future that we were all promised, but which never quite manifested itself. He says he loves that scene dearly. But then I think what you just talked about comes to the end of that of, and you work for that future.

[41:21] It wasn't given to us. It didn't manifest on its own, but we work for it. Well, Jeff, those are some of the messages we found. New messages. I like the one, i okay i know i'm biased i just said but i like the one that i just said you know we've talked about your your doobie have several times before and it's a solid message absolutely holds up if if we ever write the book the messages of babylon five that's one that's going to be in there, but this was a new one i i love when we discover the new message that we missed the first time around and i love that listen the future is some assembly required maybe all assembly required yes the future is is brought to you by ikea yeah exactly except you know you got to do it all But it's not going to be as simple, right? It's not as simple as it's hard work, but there are instructions. There is a manual and there are pieces and you can get there. You can get there, but you're going to have, if that's the future you want, you're going to have to make it happen. You're going to have to have the will to make that happen. Exactly. I love that. I love that. Well, Jeff, along with the messages, you know, the other thing we're doing is we're creating the 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon five season two for the second time. We did this the first time around.

[42:29] But it's time to revisit that and do this because this is a whole new experience you know the first watch is a different ranking than the second watch it is it's a different show do what it's a different show it really is isn't it jeff like i like to say babylon five is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice oh yeah that's guys quote that quote that all right uh current top five jeff because you get to place this one this is your responsibility you get to put it right.

[42:59] Where it lands real quick where did this episode land in the final rank final ranking of our first time viewing this came in at number nine it's a top 10 episode so this this was originally number four future episodes push this down to number nine i don't know if we re-ranked it at all or not either i'm curious where this i'm curious if this even hits the top five for you this time around actually you know what jeff i'm not going to go top five here okay i'm gonna i'm gonna come middle five because listen our our top one oh my gosh our top our top episodes right now the coming of shadows soulmates geometry of shadows race through dark places even i mean you're not even going to touch all alone this isn't even going to make top five right now i don't think it can't it really i don't think like it's just not no so i'm going to go with the second five all right our number 10 episode right now is revelations number nine is a distant star number eight is points of departure number seven is acts of sacrifice and number six is grow post jeff where does this episode fall in the ranking is it in this spot is it below i'd be shocked if it was above but you get to place it my friend.

[44:11] Last week, you talked about this and I love it so much because it's here again. We, we've been doing this a long time. We are often on the same, often we're on completely opposite sides of a thing that happened, but so often we know what the other one is thinking and you are dead on right. And this is going to sound like a repeat of last week's entire episode because I end up looking at the same spot you were last week. Gropos is the one where this kind of hinges.

[44:37] The Gropos acts of sacrifice area. You're right. It's not going to be a top five episode, but it is in the middle. And I mean, what I love about this episode as compared to acts of sacrifice and grow pose, grow pose more than X, but like there's series spanning stuff that happens here, you know, but much like acts of sacrifice, it's lane pavement for things that happen later. I can watch this aha doom stuff. I can watch Kosh getting beat up and killed by the shadows and not need, this background to make all of that work so i land where you landed before what would i rather.

[45:15] Watch it's such a great litmus test it just i mean it comes down when you're when you're when you're between a couple of spots that's where would yeah where all what would i rather put on next which one do i want to watch and and the thing is like this and gropo is both are good like action there's action it's they're fun you know like there's some fun to the episodes and so So this, Brent, it's going to land right underneath Gropos as our number seven on the series. Pushing acts of sacrifice down another spot. Yeah. You know, it's a tough call overall. And where this, God, I hate it because this killed the acts of sacrifice ranking the first time around as well. But the Lumati storyline, the Ivanova portion of that, like she handles it. But the fact it was there, I'm going to hold it against that episode, I think, for time immemorial. You know why I can't?

[46:08] Because Claudia asked for it. I mean, she has to have more funny scenes, and this is what JMS gave her. But still, it's hard for me to put that against her, just considering she asked for it. And she did the hell out of it. She really did. Oh, she went full bore with it, right? Yeah. so i can't i i can't wholly disagree with you but uh i think you have it in the right spot, put it that way i i would prefer to watch this over acts of sacrifice again yeah um but i do think it's right there it's it's in this it's in the right range for sure right about yeah absolutely well jeff that is gonna do it for hunter prey.

[46:46] Next week, we are watching. Do you remember this episode? There all the honor lies. Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't remember what this episode is about. Like, I'm sitting here right now. I have not re-listened to our episode. I have not watched it since I am not listening. I'm not hearing this episode title. I'm going, oh, yeah, it's the one where I don't have it. So I'm interested to get into it and find out. But I do have my prediction written down. Yeah. Jeff, do you have your prediction from the first time around? What, what did, what did you predict this episode would be? You know, almost like grabbing that grow pose thread and continuing. I thought this was going to be a Kefir episode. Oh yeah. Kefir. You know, he had that whole thing go down in hyperspace. And so I figured he was going to go back in and like stake his honor really on like the shadows and the people that were lost and all the things that happened. But we know that he does that eventually. Yep. Just not yet. Not this one. Like, I think that's like later in the season. It's where he dies. Right. Yeah. Later on. But if I, yeah. I won't, I'm not going to give you anything about this episode. I'm going to let you experience it for yourself when we watch it the second time. What did you predict it was going to be about? Well, I, oh man, I had a big, long prediction on this one. Not you. I don't believe that for a second. I'm not sure. I like the tone of your voice when you say that there, Mr. Aiken. Uh, I said that when we hear the word honor, there are three names that come to mind.

[48:10] Garibaldi, Londo, and Dillon. and so i went out on a limb and i said that this is going to feature not an a plot not an a plot b plot but it's going to feature an a b and c plot jeff right which is probably why i had so much to say because there's three different things going on here and it would feature those three delin garibaldi and londo now i really started nailing home and drilling down on this whole idea of the redemption of londo malari and this is where it starts because it didn't start last week so it's got to start here right this is where the redemption of londo malari starts that's his deal he's gonna have to come face to face with where his honor is right like where does his honor like that's that's his part of it right garibaldi he was just gonna be the comic relief like whatever his part of honor is is gonna be funny you know maybe i don't know he gets a piece of mail and And the guy at the mailroom doesn't want to give it to him. And so he has to break in and use his, use his station credentials or whatever to make it happen. And he really shouldn't. And that's, you know, it'd be something like that.

[49:15] Dillon, Dillon still has to deal with the fallout of losing her seat at the great council where she's just an ambassador now. So she's got to do that. And I took it a step further and I said the three different things would all like interweave. Like they would all mesh and go together. Kind of like that TKO, TKO, Ivanova and Walker intercutting. It would kind of do something like that. That's what I said it would be. How about you? What did you say? I already said what I said. You talked for so long, you forgot. I talked for so long, I forgot.

[49:43] Which is great. You can join us here next week and you'll see what it was actually about. I'm excited for you to watch this one for the second time, Brent. Because. That's what happens. I'm sorry. That's what happens when I don't look at the note and I just kind of riff off the cuff. I'm just going. Wait, shoot. Because he switched back and forth every week. Exactly. It makes it hard, but I'm excited for you to watch this next one. The moment this starts, you're going to be like, oh my gosh, it's that one. Yeah. This is one of those episodes, at least for us. Okay, great. I'm excited. I'm excited to do it. Can we record right now? Maybe. Well, we need to finish this one up first. Okay, let's do that. Let's do that. Probably a good idea. Join us here next week. We're going to watch this. It's going to be great. It's going to be an episode that means something is what it's going to be. So make sure that you're subscribed wherever you're watching or listening. Leave us a rating, a review. leave a comment do all that cool stuff and before next week before next week's episode share this with someone so they can join us for that great viewing so until next time i'm going to wrap up and i don't have access to the button here so um i can get right listen listen you listen the first time death the first time we did this episode you told me you didn't like me interrupting you and cutting you off and i cut you off the first time i apologize i said i wasn't gonna do it again I'm not here. I'm just letting you go, man. You are really kind. I appreciate that so much. You know what though? Just here's what I would have said. Okay. I'm actually really impressed with how much Sheridan's conspiracy stuff played into this one.

[51:07] Why would you have said that? We didn't talk about this. I just having this thought right now. Why would you have said that? There's like nothing. Well, I mean, there's just so many references to other conspiracies and stuff like that out there. Dude, what in the shrug are you talking about? Oh.

[51:22] Music.