In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5, for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time looking for all those little things there's no possible way we could have caught the first time around.

[1:01] But, you know, some things we did catch the first time around, Jeff messages. We did. We are also still looking for messages along with all the stuff that we missed that now that we can talk about everything because we know the ending of the show, because this isn't our first watch. It is our second watch. That being said, let this serve as a warning to anyone out there within the sound of our voices. If you have not watched Babylon five for the first time yourself, the show proper and Jeff and mine show, if I might add that one in there to stop this video right now, stop this podcast, stop the audio, go back and watch that one. First, listen to those first, do what you got to do first, and then catch up with us here on the second half, because from this point forward, Jeff and I are allowed to talk about anything regarding Babylon five. From any point in the series, any point in the timeline, spoilers will abound, especially in this episode, I'm predicting, Jeff. I have a feeling you're right, because this is kind of a big deal episode is what I've been led to understand.

[2:06] It's called In the Shadow of Zaha Doom. Now, I know for you, Brent, the idea, the concept of Zaha Doom is something new and unexplored. I don't know what it is. I swear, you guys keep telling me that we've heard this thing before, but I've never heard this word before which is fair you just heard it i just said it it's your first time mark it you heard jeff say zahadum now twice we're gonna learn quite a bit about the shadow of it i remember the first time shadow of it first time around on this one brent like this uh if i remember right like i love this episode and i remember being like okay i think it might even be in the uh this is one of the ones where i might have said what you said in our opening thing of this is where Babylon five becomes Babylon five. Like this was, this was the episode for me for quite a while. Do you remember what you thought of it the first time around?

[3:01] I love this episode loved this episode god's honest truth though i don't remember why like i don't remember what actually happens in this episode that makes me go oh my gosh this is such a great episode because the story all kind of goes together you know what i mean yeah i i just really remember liking this episode a lot like gosh and i remember um uh there was a whole thing about morden and his hair in this episode in every episode he's in it really yeah it's interesting that's what you remember because i happen to know what you actually thought of it the first time around i would love to know what i actually thought of it the first time around yeah i listened to this i listened to our for the first time episode and i have to say before i talk about how much you liked it dude we were insufferable in this episode are you saying oh my god i i there were times i'm just like i couldn't anymore like what's wrong with you guys what do you mean and suffer because i've had this experience too with some other episodes like what what did we what did i do this time dude you would not shut up about what is this zaha doom thing you keep saying zaha doom what is like through the hole it's like we got it man we get it we get it and i mean just as bad i I could not stop beating this drum.

[4:22] I mean, they put the great war thing in the credits and is this the great war or is that going to, what's the great war? What's the, like, dude, just, they're all great wars. Just let it be the great war. Oh my, shut up. Just stop. Oh, but you Brent, you said, finally, we get definitive answers. I love this episode. Answers. I like answers. You set the, You planted the seeds for what we're doing right now. You're like, I can't wait to go back and find all the breadcrumbs that I missed up to this point. And you were really excited because this is an episode where we got to see some. You said you love all the episodes where we get to see the frequently used gifts. And this, of course, has the very famous little twiddly fingered veer in it. So this is the one where he confronts Borden is like, I want to live just long enough to see her head up on a Pike and I'm going to look up and I'm going to wave. Is that one? Okay. All right. I love that.

[5:24] I love this episode, too. I liked how it got, like, this made things super personal for Sheridan and made the shadows, like, a thing. And it, being insufferable, it dawned, like, this was this whole big revelation for me. I was like, oh, my gosh. All of these little things in the episodes leading up to this, they all actually meant something.

[5:47] I said, I think I'm just now realizing that this is Babylon 5's storytelling style. Oh, look at you. That's really on top of things, apparently. We loved Veer. Loved Veer in this episode. Called it his coming out party. Got him with Morden. Got some of him with Sheridan. That we're both just like, this is Veer. In fact, we said... I'm sorry. That's super interesting because I have something on that later. Really? I do. Okay. Well, he said, we said in this one, his hair grew three times that, that day. Of course it did. Because we all know the bigger of Centauri's hair. You know what that means? The more dippity do they got to use.

[6:33] This was the first time that you noticed Zach. Yeah. We were still calling him Kenicky all the time. But, uh, but I said, I said, I don't know, man, I do not have high hopes for him. I think he's going to go full night watch. And then you were like no man he's not like he's not bad he's not a bad guy he's just getting duped he's the everyman in this series for us and he's just he's just getting duped both things that we said 100 accurate right absolutely like those two those two things were not mutually exclusive like they coexisted within this character of zach which is why one of the many reasons he and all the other characters were just great from a leadership standpoint I loved Garibaldi in this episode he resigns his commission at one point and I was like.

[7:25] He's putting his money where his mouth is. This is fantastic. But then you brought up what a hypocrite he is. Absolutely. So he's going to resign his commission over Sheridan wanting to do this. But dude who shot him in the back, stoner, Talia's guy, he's going to totally go off book. And so for him, it's fine. But when Sheridan does it, oh, you can't. You can't have anything to do with that. I don't remember this. And I think I really am looking forward to seeing that in tonight's episode as we watch it, because that feels very true to me.

[8:00] Like, I feel like I can still see that and I'm still going to be on that page. So probably let's see what happens. We spent a good chunk of time, a substantial amount of time, just trying to kind of hash out the story of everything. Like, okay. One of the first ones, the ancient ones, was this 10,000 years or a thousand years or the shadows over them of all this stuff that came out. And like, I'd say we got like 80% there from it. I'm really, I'm really eager to hear the story this time through because hearing us talk about it, it just didn't sound very clear. It sounded pretty confusing, but out of that story. That's what it would be for the first time. It should be. I think it was the appropriate response. I asked a big question out of that though. It was like, is Mass Effect directly influenced by Babylon 5? Oh, there you go. The idea of races coming on a thousands of years scale to wipe out other races kind of thing. We definitely dusted off the cork board for this one. We had some, added quite a bit of yarn. You ready? Like this was, you were very like, I don't know, maybe. It's just not a lot to back it up at this point, but some things just kind of line up. Are the shadows in Sycor in Cahoots? Yeah.

[9:20] I said uh like i was talking about the the shadows themselves i'm like jms is better than just writing a you know they're just evil and they want to kill everybody thing i said between the shadows and the vorlons and everything else going on there is no clear good and evil happening here if the shadows that jeff put a pin in that i'm gonna come back to it oh this is great i love that he's bringing stuff up too but i was like yeah if the shadows rose up there's a purpose there's a motivation this isn't just evil for evil's sake the last one i've got for this i've got a couple for during the episode but uh i had a theory my yarn that i added to the corkboard this was a big moment you know what i bet you anna is still alive and working for the shadows.

[10:05] To this day to this day i cannot believe you got that dude i can't believe that the community didn't like like no one ever let that cat out of the bag for so long i said yeah you know the one thing the one thing that you and i can never do you and i can never go back with the community and experience the community watching us be complete idiots or say so stupid accurately stuff like that yeah and just keep us yeah that was such a great we're we're and are very lucky to have our community we are i 100 agree yeah love you guys what uh you got a couple things you put pins in i'm excited to hear what do you have from jms's mouth on this one oh jeff he's got a lot a lot of what go figure um i have a lot like i have a section of like here's what jms says and then like wait till the episode to talk about this stuff okay i have a lot in that section i actually even added a new one which was talk about this after the episode oh wow so a couple things just from jms uh just point of.

[11:15] Order the official date like in universe date of this is sunday september 24th really yeah just whatever look at that just a few days off from the day we're recording a few days off from when we're recording september 24th 22 59 but that's significant just to me and because we know that each year kind of like starts in january and goes to december like right they follow the year and so this is where we are that is how that is how years you generally go the seasons also go that way talking about the shadows for a moment.

[11:47] JMS says this, come on, guys, I would not create a race as potentially unstoppable as the shadows without making sure they had one, but only one Achilles heel, though it may take our characters a long time to figure out what that is. Almost too long. Almost too long. Yeah. Continuing to talk about them, JMS says this, one of the things I like to play with is the layering of ambiguity. Let's say just for the sake of argument okay just for the sake of argument i'm not saying this is what it is doubles advocate here that we set up two sides the shadow men which should tell you when he wrote this because he's still calling them shadow men the shadow men versus the vorlons which looks like good versus evil jeff just simple good versus evil look at that just looks like that.

[12:38] Fundamentally i find that boring what you then have to do is you have to get into why they're doing what they do and how they're doing what they do. There is, for instance, the good, quote unquote, that says, we know what's best for you. We'll protect you. We'll nurture you. We'll do it our own way and we'll keep you. Oh, but you'll do it our way. We'll keep you away from ideas and beliefs you shouldn't be exposed to. That sounds like a fairly decent parent or a young kid. Yeah. As they get older, you've got to, you've got to release that, right? Yep. Loosen those. It sounds like an awful government. And it sounds like a great song from Rush. It says, okay, maybe that fits one definition of good, but is it? On the flip side, for instance, JMS says, there's the quote-unquote bad side. There must be conflict and death because it's only through conflict and death that we grow stronger and that we can eventually create an ordered universe. The gene pool has to be kept strong. So to do that, there has to be war, strife, and death. Okay, maybe that fits the definition of evil. What is it? The key again and always is that nothing seems to be what it is on Babylon 5. Yeah, there you go. Even if it looks like it is what it is, you have to look at why it is. And maybe at that point, it isn't.

[13:56] That's pretty, like, you think about that for a minute, right? Like, oh, there's this thing. Here it is. Let me think about that for a minute. Wait, it's not that at all. Well, we're going to this is going to be an ongoing conversation over the course of the next couple of years for us as we go through this. But I have gone on record saying that even though the reason for the Vorlons doing what they do and the reason for the shadows doing what they do, I still think of the Vorlons as the good guys. You do. I do. And I do. And I stand by that because they're not trying to hurt people. They're trying to help and they're trying to move forward. And I'm going to tell them until they're not until they're not until they're. Yeah, until they're not, and then they go, A, and then we got to take care of them, which that's a fair drawing, you know. But that's still the good, like, that's the good and right thing. But I get everybody's like, but is it? Oh, but it's not.

[14:46] The one place where I will give on this one is in what JMS says here. It's not just in what they're doing. It's in why they're doing it. Yeah. And what we know is the Vorlon's reasons for why they're doing it, even though it's the right thing, are very wrong. And that's not cool. And again, we'll have these conversations much later on. But it's interesting to me that he has this written out this early in the show. I mean, he literally just wrote the end of the Shadow War right there. Yeah, exactly. All right, let's move on to a few other things here. Jeff, you remember a guy, he was a character on the show. what was his name?

[15:26] He was around. He was the guy before Sheridan. Oh, Sinclair. Sinclair. I was thinking Cinco or something. Yeah, this guy, right? And, you know, like he had this whole plan for Sinclair and Sinclair was thing. And then he left and clearly everything just got ported over to Sheridan and there's no changes. It's exactly what it is. One to one. Just change the name. Yeah. And you and I both know that Anna being Sheridan's wife, you know, she's the one who wakes up the shadows. And actually, that would have just been Catherine Sakai. Yeah. And it's just now it's Anna.

[15:58] Well one big reason that sakai could not have filled anna sheridan's role in awakening the shadows is that the shadows were already up and awake in the first season as we saw in signs important yep versus because because katherine didn't go to the planet until later yeah yeah they're already up and awake they were up they had some time to build some stuff up they had some time to reclaim their ships and in other ways to get organized and develop their contacts Also, Morden was already working for them. So Catherine would not have gone to Zahadum and woken everybody up, which I think is something you and I have actually even posited offhandedly at some point. So, yeah, that's not going to do. Somebody asked JMS a question. Why did Dillon demand to see Kosh? I'm assuming this is back before Chrysalis. Second, yeah. Well, she wanted to see Kosh to assure herself that the Vorlons, whom she had never met before, were who she believed them to be. And that kosh was a true vorlon not a pretender because he had to be in place for part of valen's prophecy yeah because part of the prophecy are the big angels hanging over you know like there's, valen and then the two okay which is fun to me because i remember us talking about that of saying when she says i need to see it's because she needed the reinsurance that this was the right thing she needed and like whatever she saw.

[17:19] Let her know the yes this is the right thing to do right which i think is that's that's actually elementary obvious if you watch it makes a lot of sense in a way it's it's one of those things where she can actually confirm the prophecy before doing the thing in the prophecy now just to go back to sat catherine's a guy ben in our council chambers points out the quote also gets thrown around a lot but in the commentary jms did confirm that catherine would have played some of anna's role just not the part where she woke them up that makes sense yeah she she might have been the one who piloted the thing or something like that speaking of the first ones jeff now we're going to talk a little bit more about the first ones but i did think this was kind of neat wanted to talk about it why did the why did the why did the first ones leave some of the first ones just got bored after a million after millions of years yeah and they just went off all right we're out deuces we're bored you uh when we let's do the first time you slipped in a stargate reference that i didn't pick up on when you were like you know maybe i I mean, maybe they're just ancients, and they ascended or something. Jeff, I'm so nervous. I know you are. I'm so nervous that I've slipped some of those in that you didn't know at the time, but now you have enough knowledge that if I were to say something, it becomes a spoiler for something that's going to happen. I got a lot of the pieces now. Yeah. Oh, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous.

[18:39] He also says the rest, who didn't go on just because they were bored, for the most part went beyond the rim for the same reason that you cut down old trees which is to make room for new trees okay hey we're gonna leave and let you guys take over you can't grow you can't do your thing while we're here so we're gonna step out again a good parent does this exactly hey child you're never gonna spread your wings as long as i'm here i have to step away and let you fly a bird has to push the baby bird out of the nest let them fly you know what i mean yeah so So I love this. But what that got me thinking, though, was the Vorlons in the shadows by them remaining.

[19:21] They were not making way for new growth. The Vorlons and Shadows actually were inhibiting the growth. Where could we as a species have been? Where would the galactic species have been had the Vorlons and Shadows not remained? Yeah. And they were just allowed to just grow on their own. A little science-y stuff here for you, Jeff, just in case you're wondering about Anna's ship and stuff. Exploration and archaeological scientific vessels would usually piggyback on explorer ships and other jump-capable ships.

[19:51] With an arrangement that like, yeah, we'll be here for so many days or so many weeks. And then another ship's going to come by and just kind of pick them up on the way back home. Oh, wow. Okay. Like their ships didn't actually have the power to get through stuff. Somebody asked this question. The great machine inside of Epsilon 3, was that built by a member of the race of the first ones? Okay. And his answer?

[20:11] Could be. Oh, could be. I like that better. Which to me is, I don't know. I didn't think about it. I just needed this great machine here because eventually I'm going to need a radio transmitter. So i needed it there but he did confirm this about varne who was varne varne was the the battery the original battery that went dead he was not one of the first ones i remember we speculated about some of that sort of stuff all right one more jeff one more this is another one of those i told you to put a pin in earlier talking about uh veer another fortunate twist of fate concerns veer's role in this story which you and i as you said jeff and correct good get my right quote it is a turning point for his character yes would you be surprised to know jeff veer wasn't supposed to be in this episode really for such a strong moment for him he was not supposed to be in his episode all of his stuff was actually supposed to be done by londo really okay but peter jurassic was not available for this episode for reasons he doesn't remember at the time so due to that veer got his moment to shine that's simply because peter was busy and steven koto comes in and or Steven Cotto. Oh my gosh. Steven first comes in and Veer Cotto.

[21:24] Just has a moment that really paves the way it says, which helped pave the way for his character to continue growing into someone of surprising strength, which I think is exactly what we've said about Veer all this time. Yeah. I mean, he had those, he had the moment with Morden that was incredible. And then he stood up to share it in which that was the one I think on our first watch, we were just like, that's, that's there's Veer. Like there's the guy right there.

[21:49] Everything else, Jeff, I'm going to save for the, for the episode. Cause there's still more and there's still some more interesting stuff. Um, but yeah, we'll, we'll go, we'll go, we'll go with what we've given you so far. So Jeff, let's, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Let's watch the shadow of Zaha doom. For those of you joining us for the first time or the ones who've been with us for the first time and through the second time, all the way through, let me tell you what's going to happen. We're going to bring the episode up right here. We're going to watch it in real time with you. We didn't go to it and take notes and we're just going to have a discussion around it. We're going to watch it and have conversations along the way. If you're watching this on YouTube, then you're going to see the kind of chopped up edited reaction video style thing that we have to do for, you know, YouTube purposes. If you want to see the full, the unedited version of our whole conversation in the episode, you can catch that over on our Patreon page. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening on the audio podcasting app, What you are going to hear is the 100% completely true, not made up, not put on the actual reactions that Jeff and I have to this episode.

[23:02] I promise you folks, what you are about to see is Jeff and I truly watching this episode for the second time for the first time again. And hey, listen, after that, we'll be talking about the episode and all that sort of stuff. Any new insights maybe that we found? And I don't know, maybe there'll be a message or two this time around, Jeff. Maybe, maybe. So with that, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[23:32] Is this the one where the extras are just circling the wall? Yeah, it's like we only had a handful of extras, so we'd get them, we'd have them turn to the left and then come back around to the right. That's good filmmaking. Well, I mean, what's great is like, yeah, we're not going to notice you're the same one who just came through a few minutes ago. Or 30 seconds ago. It's the days before HD. Mr. Morton. Go ahead and take the watermark down, and we're just going to sit in silence for a second. Jeff's having a moment over here. Look at that, man. John Stamos, read him and weep. Eat your heart out. Yeah. I mean, look, look, like, his eyebrows are perfectly symmetrical. God. He really is just a beautiful man, like, with incredible, like. What's, what's, Jeff wants to kiss him. I want to punch him. Maybe I want to. And it's probably a similar, actually, it's like a similar gut feeling. Right. both of us it's a west coast east coast thing why don't you ask me questions when you already know the answers here sit dude I love Veer he just from go not giving him an inch sit, I really wish Veer didn't sit I really wish he didn't sit there, you don't like me do you Veer I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike I want to look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this.

[24:59] Can you and your associates arrange that for me mr i love that he just had that loaded ready to go i won't have people dying cold and alone on the docking bay floor.

[25:07] I have a mentee that's working on their MBA right now. And I just had a session with them this afternoon. And it was great because they are a very, very compassionate person, leads, you know, heart first and is really interested in feelings. But the focus of their MBA is on executive decision making, essentially.

[25:30] And we talked about the idea of the trolley dilemma. you know, the trolleys on the tracks and there's five people tied to it. You can flip a switch, flip the thing and have it go off the rails, but it would hit one person. What's the right choice. And I said, the thing is that on the two extremes, the person who just makes a decision, right, is going to just say, we'll just kill one because that's the stuff behind it. Me making the choice irrelevant. Four more people are alive because I made that choice. The people who just lead from the heart and just think with their heart won't do anything. And the five will end up dying or something worse will happen because they just won't make a decision. They'll try and think of a way that no one can get hurt. But when you can lead with from your heart and still make those executive decisions at the same time, you'll think it through and you'll make whatever decision it is you have to make acknowledging the loss that happens. And that's what Sheridan just here did. And I love it. Whereas just, Hey, we, we don't have room for this. And I'm making the decision that we're going to triage people out and do these things. And no one will die alone. It's incredible.

[26:40] That's what happens when people are your priority. A hundred percent. You know what I mean? Not government regs, not budgets, not whatever. When people are your priority, this becomes the thing real quick. While you have this stopped, just, just so I can say, Um, something that JMS said about the scene we just watched with fear. He said, I like that. And intended and intended. Did. That Veer be the first one to stand up to Morden. That was the plan. Was for Veer to be the first one to stand up to Morden. I love that. Didn't intend, I guess, necessarily for it to be in this episode, but it came about. It makes so much sense because he's been the voice of the Jiminy Cricket, right? For Lando, don't gut him in. Don't do this the whole time. So, yeah. Coworkers. She didn't know anybody else on board.

[27:37] I feel like we've seen those faces around Babylon 5 before. I know this guy there's extras around sometimes we've seen him under prosthetics possible he was on the icarus when it exploded same as anna i've seen there it is even his badge picture looks good, located in okay so remind me why the shadows left morden alive because they needed an emissary or an ambassador or something of that nature right why morden like why did morden agree, It was that or die, basically. And I don't remember if we. But Morton's fully, like, yay into this. Like, he has embraced this fully. Well, that's the. This isn't I'm just a slave doing stuff against my wheel. My wheel? My wheel? Sound like I'm from Kentucky. My wheel?

[28:25] Yeah, I don't remember if we get it explained in this one. I think it's after Anna comes on board. Maybe it's actually when we are on Zahadoom with Justin and Anna and Morton. But they talk about like basically they lined the icarus people up and they're like you do this or you do this and then they all got kind of you know anna got ship cpu'd and they all got kind of space zombied by the by the shadows and he was i guess the last one in the line and was like no no or they were just saw him in line and they're just like there's got to be more to this guy than driving a ship look at that hair like it's the smile man made him swoon totally there's like we made those little spider crab dudes swoon men andrew points out and we have i've not yet read shadow within but in um in the novel andrew shares that he was fighting the shadows right up until the very end i really want to read that now like that's got to be an interesting story he was fighting the shadows so morden is actually a hero so bester is a villain who masquerades as a hero morden is a hero who masquerades as a villain and And they both come together and take over the earth government. It's a beautiful story. Something about he was promised to get his wife and daughter back. They offered him a choice, serve one way or serve the way Anna did. I just love it. Again, he's not just purely evil. There's no just, I'm evil because I'm evil. We actually feel sorry for him. Listen, everybody's a hero of their own story, I guess. True.

[29:53] Is that book canon? Like JMS approved canon? No, I don't know. He's still here. The answer, Brent, is yes. JMS's wife wrote it. I just saw that. Okay. Find him.

[30:06] Is dead look this i buy this i believe that crap and that points of departure up or no the one after revelations don't get that this one i'm with sent you a note earlier yes back and he's got to be evil you know why it's come through here and things the accent yeah problem may i uh of course thank you we're trying to round up support for i did read somewhere where he uh jms said he's like i wasn't even trying to be subtle with the mini packs yeah he literally like literally lifted that right out of 1984 and said that even in like around the the office of babylon five this is what they were calling it he said they weren't even trying to be subtle i like it you haven't slept for 36 hours 36 hours once again is this where we start the stems thing i think so stems get me through yep substitute for food or a few hours sleep i'm gonna have to ask you to step over there for a minute let me get these other people through i don't think that'll be necessary, sometimes you feel like morden feels like he's a jedi right that won't be unnecessary, i love how smooth zach is though he's just like i'm trying to be cool just come on don't forget, right now flanking morden are two shadows yeah you're right nice shoes which probably gives him some of that jedi uh confidence i'll admit my knowledge of the law you know it'd be really cool as if the soul of sheridan's foot had the babylon five logo awesome you should at least I don't remember how I survived So he's lying right now?

[31:36] I don't know. Maybe he doesn't have that part of his memory. I love that lighting on him right there. Getting dark Sheridan. I'm almost surprised they don't have a red light shining on him. Richard Biggs has stated this is his favorite scene in the entire series that he filmed. Oh, yeah?

[32:00] About what? So, you mentioned that Stephen Biggs is set. Stephen Biggs. Richard Biggs has said this is his favorite scene he's ever filmed. They're about to talk about the foundation religion, which is like very, I mean, very close to a lot of Christianity Catholic, but not quite all at the same time. Like, it feels like there's just some stuff like, or maybe not even like it's, it's my, this ecumen, I don't universalism, I think is, is more around what if I understand what universalism is? I mean, I may misunderstand it, but regardless of that, JMS says this talking about foundation, foundationalism is the religion that crops up in the late 21st, early 22nd century. This religion in the story is actually based on a series of notes, which eventually totaled over a hundred pages that JMS had been writing over the preceding years, sort of fleshing out the whole philosophy of Babylon five. OK, these are just notes to himself about what's going on with Babylon 5, the book of Straczynski, do what the book of Straczynski. Exactly. But, you know, it's it's the beliefs of the various alien races, the changes in human evolution, changes in other beliefs, exploration of space and all that sort of stuff.

[33:22] These notes would also form the basis for a lot of the speeches that we get from Delenn and Jakar over the course of the series, which we know are just so flippin' awesome. Yeah, they're coming from these notes. But foundationalism basically is this. It's the foundation. Just this philosophy wrapped into a religion. Yeah, it's the foundation of everything Babylon 5, it sounds like. Yeah. Wow. Like, that's what this actually is. It's not just this weird, wacko, made-up religion, not religion. It's actually a thing in his mind, like based on a real thing going on. He also says this. I'm still debating whether or not to ever release that material. I would love to read it. It's hundreds of pages. That's the dang Cimmerillion of Babylon 5. Release it, Joe. Release it, Joe. Although Ben in the Council Chambers chat makes a good point. JMS does not want it to be L. Ron Hubbard.

[34:19] And that 100% would happen. Do you know what that means? Yeah, like that Scientology thing. Yeah, yeah. My favorite L. Ron Hubbard quote, why would I write for a penny a word when I could make more money creating my own religion? Yeah, that's so good. Richard Biggs. I'm not saying anything we haven't said so many times before, but you put that monologue in someone else's hands and it's okay. Like the writing is great. The soundtrack was just perfect. Just, just sinister enough, you know, to kind of convey his emotion, but you put it in a lesser actor's hands and it's weird and kind of awkward. That was like, you felt what he was feeling in that.

[35:08] And that quite simply is what the ministry of peace is all about. Now, as, okay, so far has an early warning system. So far i'm for what he's saying sounds great you know we can protect them from physical harm but until you're i mean this sounds like something out of out of i don't know oma to sala's little ring over there you know like hey until you make peace with yourself you'll never have peace without yeah until you until you eat the dinner it can't be made so so far good stuff yeah on board so far it's a good intro possible attacks to work against peace sow the seeds of discontent. This is where it tips. I think right there, Talia just went, nope, now I'm out. It's not because they are necessarily evil. So he's doing the sales thing, right? Like he did all the stuff that you were saying, oh, that sounds good.

[36:00] Yeah, yes, yes. You get people saying yes. You get them nodding their head. You get them agreeing, all of that sort of stuff. And then you're like, and it's a billion dollars. And you have to tattle on people for the thoughts that they're having. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, that seems to make sense to me now.

[36:16] Talk to these people. We can embrace them again in the armed society. Yes, we're going to talk to them and embrace them. While at the same time, we're going to protect society from misinformation and harmful ideas. We are in attitudes. God. We must help protect society. Management 101. I don't care what their attitude is. It's the behavior that matters.

[36:37] And he just said, I don't care what their behavior is. It's the attitude. How do you legislate to that? How do you manage that? Oh, you don't. You just get to pick and choose what and who you do and enforce that way. Versus, and this will fly into the crowd of some other folks. You got Captain Kirk, who potentially his best line of the entire series happened in one of the first episodes. Leave that bigotry in your quarters. There's no room for it here on the bridge. To what you said. it's the actions i can't regulate your thoughts right i can't regulate those things it's your actions that we as a manager as a as as this we will do your actions your thoughts i can't you keep those where they need to be yeah thing i say to people sometimes when they don't believe in the values or whatever i'm just like yeah i don't i don't pay you for your thoughts i pay you for what you do when you're here being paid you do these things what you do with you're in your mind and your own yeah you do you right please don't hurt anybody.

[37:47] Also just do the things I need you to do I'm proud to be a part of it and I hope you'll all join me now by everyone he doesn't actually mean everyone right he only means people like him, It'd be really great if those of you who have been specifically invited to be here. The more I pick his story apart, the more it doesn't add up. I'm the one who's ultimately accountable, and it's my butt that'll be brought up on charges. So that Brent is why... It's not a hypocrite. He's saying if I do it, I get in trouble. I'm okay with that. If you do it, I get in trouble. I'm not okay with that. I know you're doing this because of your wife. I can understand that. Interpreting the regulations for a senior officer can be considered an act of insubordination. That's Sheridan crossing the line. Okay, so now what? Could be. You're going to charge me with insubordination? Is that it? You know what I'm noticing here, Jeff? Hmm. And this plays much later on.

[38:39] Garibaldi and Sheridan were never friends. You know, they might have been cordial. Might have been workmates. Yeah. Sinclair and Garibaldi were friends. All of this, this is boss and subordinate. This is, there's no friendship here. Now, that doesn't mean that they're not friendly. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that personal relationships don't develop as they go through stuff later on. Right. Yeah. Garibaldi and Sinclair were simpatico. They were good. They had that history. They were friends. Garibaldi was doing stuff for Sinclair. He called him Jeff. All right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's no Jeff here. He would have been saying Jeff all out through. Listen, listen, Brucie, whatever his name is. Johnny. Look, John. We got to talk. This is not. Instead, we're hearing Captain. Yeah, Suzanne brings that. There's Garibaldi Sinclair. There's Ivanova Sheridan.

[39:38] Okay, here's what's interesting. He immediately takes his link and his weapon off. Sets it down. Now compare that to later on when he, when Zach comes to get his link and his weapon. Yeah. If you were in my position, would you let him go? If you had that doubt in your mind? You know, as an actor, this must have been a great episode for Bruce. Yeah. Nothing else means one damn. What I love. So good. I love so much, like just the writing of it, where every person around him are like, dude, come on. Like, you're going too far. And his response is, I came here for my wife and my career, and I'm all out of wife. Like, like totally Rowdy, Rowdy Piper. until the wife is back. You said it. This had to be so much fun for Bruce Boxleitner, but not just was it fun, but like... Well, I mean, as an actor, what it takes to go to certain emotional places... Can be very taxing on you. And I don't know that fun is necessarily the right word, but from a professional standpoint of having to go to those places, and by the way, oh, we need another take, come back. Oh, now we got to get this angle, come back. And just to continue to hit that emotional space every single time that you go through as an actor, like, that had to have been.

[41:07] It had to have been very fulfilling and very tiring all at the same time like you know like a good hard day of manual labor and you look back and your yard looks great or your house is perfectly decorated or whatever but you're exhausted like i imagine that had been bruce coming out of this episode yeah the best kind of exhaustion but i think also like to this point we've seen sheridan get intense a handful of times but mostly he's been the boy scout right, Like smiley and he's got the little jabs and the jokes and the whatever. And, you know, I mean, always, always lands on the side of professionalism at some point. And for him to crumble like this, but Box Lightyear to be able to like really show up with those chops. I didn't watch Scarecrow and Mrs. King. I couldn't tell you anything about it. If I had watched this when it first came out, I would have only known him from Tron and nothing else. So to know that he's got like this gear and has it just brilliantly and then to be up against a claudia christian there where you've got like what we didn't have with garibaldi we've got two friends doing this thing to the point where ivanova could even admit even admit she's like yeah i get it i wouldn't be able to let him go either like oh there's there's so much though that this says to listening to the people that are around you.

[42:29] Okay, you've got, you've got, okay, first of all, you have both Ivanova and Garibaldi who are imbued with and entasked with authority and roles of senior leadership, right? And one of the first roles of any good leader is they, the second in command has to be able to tell the number one leader when they're being an idiot. Exactly. Right? Like that's, that's, this is something we've learned a very long time ago from any sci-fi and it's just true in general, right? Like, you've got to be able to say, hey, stop being a dumbo. Exactly. Yeah. When people, when multiple people around you are saying, hey, this is an issue. This is an issue. This is an issue. This is where you are. It's a good, good bet. Hey, let me, especially when these people are people who are on your team. Yeah. They're on your side. They're friends. They're family. They're people who are for you, not against you. It's a good, it's a good check to be like, okay, let me step back. I got to listen to them. Then you add in a veer who doesn't really have a personal connection to any of this. It's very much the, um, Hey, these people that I have a professional and a personal connection with are telling me to stop this other third party that really doesn't have anything is validating what they are saying in a different way. But like literally everyone around me is telling me to stop. But sir, that'll put her in the same hall as Morden. They'll pass each other.

[43:58] Is okay question fair or no pretty brilliant he's not doing anything wrong he's manipulating the situation rolling the dice maybe nothing happens maybe something happens i mean i think i mean what what he's doing here this is the classic jeffrey sinclair john sheridan.

[44:23] Fix hey i'm gonna do something i'm gonna think outside the box i'm gonna look at what we've got going on and i'm going to come up with a solution that is right where it needs to be now in this case it seems a little skeezy but also he's not violating anybody he's not manipulating anybody he's just putting two people in the same space at the same time and seeing what happens right like it's much like suzanne says in the chat well i mean i didn't have her scan him, so i i would say that from it if it's just purely an ethical question what he's doing is not ethical is it wrong, it's dirty it's creative dirty I like the word creative.

[45:11] I love that they went black and then you saw the little shadows just barely there as are you sure you're all right so here's the thing i have often thought and apparently this is not the case given what we've heard earlier in our conversation about morden and his thing anna was killed and then reanimated to be a pilot or she was almost killed or whatever whatever yeah whatever they'd scoop them out to lobotomized she was anna was not anna even when we meet anna she's still not anna she's she's being controlled for whatever because effectively she was killed, that's not what happened with morden morden is actually still alive and he's still.

[45:50] All of this see this scene would suggest to me that whatever happened to anna also actually happened to morden and what we're seeing here with morden is actually he's he's a it's a shadow with.

[46:02] A morden suit on you know what i mean like that's that's what this would seem to me and i i remember when we got to that scene with justin and all of them when we met anna i remember this being in my mind and thinking this like morden's not alive morden is not morden he's just a shadow like he's just being used by the shadows like that he's a shadow of himself literally yeah and.

[46:28] I feel like this was the thing that told me that that's that that was the clue like that was the the key but apparently not apparently no he's just fully cooperating under duress he got two shadows on either side of you all the time that no one knows is there speaking of that real quick looking at the kosh morden scene in signs remember that's when kosh pops up and he's like they're not for you yet and a light suddenly is blown off to one side um morden didn't move that was one of his constant companions okay blowing the light um also uh when kosh said these are not for you he was talking to the shadows he was not talking to morden he was talking to the companions what it's worth i'm sorry i didn't think that was a real hit that was a real hit so somebody asked how many times did they have to film that scene with her uh hitting um he said only twice mainly because she actually hit him really hard and the first the first one like the first take was the one they wound up using so they only they did it once it was good they did it again for a safety.

[47:40] Reason and then moved on i like the smirk on richard's face this was the moment that they're like andrew thompson is gone we're i guess i had that coming, I heard his little chin thing. Right. Well, her reaction tells me there's a lot more to this guy than even I thought. And that's a start. His conspiracy theorist thing. He's very much just looking for anything that pops up. Oh, she had this reaction. I like it. Why not? Everybody else says. Yes. I've seen what the death of a loved one can do to people. It's a foundational part of his character.

[48:18] I bagged on Franklin hard in a first watch of this one. I really like him. about mr mortis you must release him at once there are beings in the universe billions of years older than either of our races so something just hit me okay the rim that they talk about is the galactic rim think so yeah it is i'm confirming jms it's the galactic rim okay it's the edge of the milky way galaxy they went and explored beyond the rim do you have any idea how many galaxies are out there jeff oh as many as there are grains of sand like there's a lot of galaxies out there right like how many other first like did they go to another galaxy how many other first ones from other galaxies did they maybe bump into out there like what is that story is it like this is world one and then they like move beyond the rim to world two and it's all just like a open galaxy video game yeah they're progressing their way through it all yeah and we're still back here on level one stuck you know the first ones went away all but one there's still one of them left okay so jms talks about this just to clarify all but one refers to the race not the individual.

[49:42] One of the species or races that is still around at this time are the Vorlons of which Kosh is one. We're not talking and implying. And I think I, I feel like I remember having this thought, like, is he the only Vorlon left? No, it's not. There are other Vorlons out there, but it's just him. That's the world. Chakar has been warning us about all year, all year. God, I wish you were already playing Mass Effect 2 so that you would get this image right here. Okay. I'll be there...ish.

[50:29] One day, Churchill's people intercepted a message authorizing the bombing of a city named Coventry. So what happened? They kept the secret. It's another trolley dilemma with executive decision-making agency happening. All these years, I've never been able to get that image out of my head. Yeah, he's describing, he's going to be carrying this with him now after making this decision. This is his new character trait. This isn't the only thing he's describing, Jeff. Do you know what else he's describing? I want you to fast forward season five, maybe season four. Dylan goes to Jakar and says, Jakar, we knew all of this, and we could have stopped it, and we didn't. Can you forgive me? And Jakar's response was something to the effect of, not right now. Yeah, not yet. Not yet. and he went a little ape on it. This is foreshadowing for that. It kind of is. Yeah. I mean, it's telling us we actually think we've already seen it, right? But it's that had Churchill gone to someone down the line and been like, hey, we knew that was coming. Yeah. Sorry.

[51:49] Stop. What? that was great writing though telling the coventry story having zach say he would never want to make that decision and immediately having sheridan make that decision.

[52:04] First time around we talked about the whole time so garibaldi took off his link set down his gun and then he went straight to the zocalo and just ate chinese food this is he has not stopped eating, This has just been a continuous meal for him up to this point. And those egg rolls are good, man. Right? Gotta love those egg rolls. Next time you listen to me, won't be a next time. Will there be? Okay, hold on, hold on. What's the next time? Let's think about that. Yeah. JMS doesn't put that line in there accidentally. The next time, listen to me. You think it's when garibaldi gets back from a secret mission i don't think so i think it's when sheridan gets back from being dead right and he's like uh-huh take it easy slow down yeah he's hey hey who is this guy uh-huh you coming back with him all of a sudden he's in the inner circle hello elon musk like who is this guy what's going on right you're gone for a little bit and now you You have this savior complex. Now you like. Earth wants to throw around its money. Who might have to say no? 50 extra credits a week to walk around and do what I do anyway. Well, no, that hickey from Kennecke. 50 credits. It's like a Hallmark card.

[53:29] If you go to Zahadoop, you will die.

[53:35] Question, Jeff. Was that a warning or a threat? That was a warning well jms's response to that exact same question, Hold on to your seat. I know you're going to be shocked by this. Yes. Yes. So after filming that scene, Bruce Boxlightner asked JMS, so do I go to Zaha Doom? And he says, yeah. Well, what happens? Well, I told you. I just told you what's going to happen. And he said, he seemed a little upset, so I said, it's fine. It's not going to happen until the fourth season. So you got time. You got time. Oh, my gosh. it was also we're idiots yeah you know 100 like i'm just going through beat for beat of what we talked about and it's like dumb idiot moron like and also we didn't know no we didn't know no we didn't know i think part of what made this so great from the morden sheridan stuff was what we know right when we when we sit down with justin when we sit down with morden and anna getting more the story of the of the shadows i think the first time we watched this we thought the story of the first ones and moving beyond the rim and stuff was the big story of this one but i i don't know that's really the big story in this episode i think so much more of it is just sheridan.

[55:03] Sheridan is the big story the whole the whole thing for him in this i don't know, what we were saying the first time we did of the show and we said and i'm you have the you have the quote there it was something to the effect of yeah there really weren't any messages whatsoever this was just a lot of stuff that happened that we said no messages zero deltas we were wrong we were very wrong we're so wrong and they're not like hidden or any but also they're not subtle In our defense, there was a lot of exposition. There was a lot of context dumped in this thing. This episode was like drinking from a Florgan fire hydrant. Yeah. It really was. The whole galaxy gets flipped on its head in this episode. If you look at what one episode, take one episode out of 111 and go, this is what Babylon 5 is. This is in the running. Like, top three? Of the episodes that says this is Babylon 5, in the shadow of Zaha Doom is one of them.

[56:07] But there's, no, but I mean, like, it's got to be like top three. Maybe. Of the episodes that do that. Maybe. There are a number of them. A number of them. But it's, I mean, it's, JMS said that if he was going to start somebody in the series, he needed an episode to hook them, he would use The Coming of Shadows. And I think what's nice with The Coming of Shadows is you can come in with very little and be like, okay, yeah, this is engaging. I get this. The politics makes some sense. The stuff is all kind of there. With this one, if you came into this one cold, I don't know that it would be as engaging.

[56:47] Jeff, if you come into this one, not cold, but having seen the first 37 episodes prior to this one, it's not as engaging. We loved this episode the first time around. Yeah. It's not as engaging as it is this time around. 100%. It is so much more engaging this time. it's it's we know so much more now we understand so much more now that watching veer look at morden and be like i want to see your head on a pike and i'm going to look up and i'm going to do you and that's the picture you have in your mind because you know it's going to happen and you're just like yeah yeah yeah in the moment in the moment it was just like what a great cool thing to say oh yeah no idea what's going to actually happen right right you've got you've got this whole thing about more than it i mean you're just explaining you're just eating up all the lore and the backstory which the first time around you're like huh.

[57:44] What was that? Who? Yeah. What, what's this planet we've never heard of before? Ever. I haven't mentioned it at all. I mean, Jakar has been talking about it all year, but I haven't heard of it at all. Never once. Jeff, buddy, you know, we, we talked about how there's no messages in this episode and oh yeah, we were wrong about that. Did you pull, what'd you pull out of this one? Well, what we talked about in there, you know, listen to the people that are around you. Don't be so laser focused on one single thing that you can't see everything else that's happening at the same time be brave be courageous and say the things you need to say veer did it twice in this episode and both for both things they went on to have impacts both for the show and for veer but yeah i mean it's just there's zero deltas was the wrong call the first time around rescore it right now i'd give it four you're so dumb that's not five deltas yeah this isn't a messages episode oh watch this okay challenge accepted.

[58:56] Okay, the ones you mentioned. Also, there's this. You're trying to use the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law. We could go on about that one. They didn't really go too much further into it, but still it was there. I love this one from Garibaldi. This thing that you have going on, yeah, we all feel it. You don't have to face it alone. We both feel like we have to do this thing, but you don't have to do this alone. Sheridan was isolating himself. Sheridan was making all of these wrong calls, okay? Letter of the law, isolating himself. Dylan says to him at one point, there comes a moment when we all must decide to devote ourselves to something greater than ourselves. All of those sit in service to this one thing that I noticed. Here's the message. Sheridan is the true hero of Babylon five. And here's why. What makes it, what makes a hero, hero, Jeff, something bigger than them giving everything up to sacrifice choices you make. Okay. Yeah.

[59:50] Not necessarily the thoughts that you thought see our earlier conversation, not even the intentions that you had. I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. But when the rubber met the road and you were able to look at it and you were confronted with the truth to be able to sit back and go, nope, the difference between the hero and the villain. And we've, we've learned this in almost every story that's been known to man. The difference between the hero and the villain is the choices you make and the choice that Sheridan made when he was presented with a Sophie's choice type situation, I'm going to let more than go. I've spent this whole episode digging my heels and digging my feet in and going, no, no, no, no. But when he was able to stop and look at it and see it for what it was, when he finally started listening to the people around him, we talked about that earlier. Did we not? Or did I just have this conversation in my head? You've got to listen to the people around you.

[1:00:47] When he finally started listening, and what makes him the hero is he made a choice to be about something that is bigger than himself, that's bigger than his own revenge, that's bigger than his own issues. He made the choice.

[1:01:03] Hero is a word that marks John Sheridan. I'm struggling to say it doesn't mark anybody else within this show. But the reason listen you can't have your redemption without going to the valley right yeah you know what i mean you can't have a chance to make the good decision without exploring the dark zone of the bad decision for a minute before you make the actual decision this was an episode where we watched sheridan wallowing in the dark zone wallowing in the port and the part of the bad decision only to come out on the other side and make the right decision to do what he has to that's what makes john sheridan the the hero not only of this episode but of babylon five as a whole and that is a message for the entire episode that makes this a five delta uh rating and and you don't even have to argue because we don't do deltas anymore right but i'm glad for you to argue if Let me ask you this one thing. Yeah. If he had not seen the shadows in there with Morden, would he have made the same call? I don't know. And it doesn't matter because he did see the shadows.

[1:02:17] But I think it does matter because I think everything influenced it. But ultimately what he heard from Dylan was, if we play our hand too soon, these people will kill all of us. And it wasn't until he was like, oh, she's right, that he went and said, oh, okay, okay.

[1:02:35] That was the moment that made him open his eyes. He was questioning. That's why he told the Coventry story. He was questioning. He was already there, yeah. Running it through. It pushed him over the edge. But I don't know that if he hadn't seen them, that he would have made that choice. And that's where I think I agree with you, except for that question. I want to believe he totally would have got there on his own without it. I also don't know for sure that he would have. But I don't think that it matters if he would have gotten there on his own without it. Because the fact is, he did see it. And that was a part of his journey. You know what I mean? Like, like, you know, I wouldn't have gotten in that car accident if I hadn't turned left instead of turning right. Well, but you did. And so you got in a car accident. Like, like there's a you can what if a lot through life. Yeah, but I don't think this is a what if.

[1:03:29] This is a I made a decision not based on listening to my friends, not based on my own intrinsic values, but on this existential threat that was just described to me and validated. Those are two different choices. It's the same choice. but they mean different things it sounds like you're trying to police what his inner thoughts are no i'm not trying to police instead of just his actions or you're trying to judge what his inner thoughts are instead of just what his actions are the the choices are what matter but the intentions matter as well oh i saved all those people shoot i was actually just trying to do this thing over here lucky me that this great thing happened and you get celebrated you're Like, it's almost like that picture of Michael Scott and he's got his little fanny pack on and the old CEO's like, look at you. He's like, I don't know what you're congratulating me for it. He made the right choice. Yes.

[1:04:25] I don't know that he made. I'm not saying he didn't make it for the right reason. I'm not saying that at all. I'm going to say he made it for the right reason because he was already. He was having that whole Coventry story. He was on the precipice. Okay. Let me, let's, let's switch it around. If he's not having the Coventry story and having that run through his mind and he turns around and he sees, he does see the shadows. Does he still make the decision? I think same thing. Maybe, maybe not. That's what I mean. But, but the reality is, and the thick, cause this is a fiction thing. But the reality is that is what happened and that is what pushed him. And he saw not, not just, Oh my God, that's right. But there was this whole line before that of he was coming around. He was listening. He was doing the thing. He wasn't, he didn't, here's the difference. He didn't harden his heart. He said, he allowed himself to be soft, softened. And when he was softened, he was able to see that and make right, right decisions. By the way, I just would love to point out in the council chambers, I'm just going to read a few comments right now. Everyone killed Jeff right now. We all love Brent. Please don't really kill Jeff. We love Jeff, but I appreciate the sentiment here. Also, Ben says, I'm with Brent. Thousands of things happen every day. Intentions are the difference between first and second degree murder. Fair enough, Andrew.

[1:05:48] Fabio says, sometimes I struggle with Jeff's points, but then again, he was the one defending Bester. So I'm just saying, anyway, they're good points. But if Jeff didn't make these points, everyone would just be thinking the same thing all the time without ever being challenged or interrogated. And that leads to blind group think. And that's also way more boring podcast. Exactly. Hey, all of the things people already think, I think the same thing. Look at this. The reality is question everything. Look at everything from all of the angles. I Jeff believes that Brent is right. Sheridan is a hero and did the right thing, but it's worth the conversation to say, does it matter why? And you're absolutely right, Jeff, because, but my point to take this all back to my original point, the message of this episode is what does it take to become a hero? I like that. It's a good way to pack choices. It's the choices that you make even after going in the dark place and what share it and say at the very end.

[1:06:50] Teach me how to kill them. Teach me how to defeat them, how to beat them, because we cannot let them win. We can't, like, he is on mission now. And it's not about his own personal revenge for his wife. It moved from Morden to this thing. And what I love about Babylon 5 is as we learn more, it turns out there's more to it than just taking out the shadows. Like he got, you know, it's just, this continues to complicate as the series unfolds as it would in reality, because it's not just evil and good, which also by the way is the point that JMS is, is writing. This isn't a simple black and white good verse evil. The war lines and shadows are not just good verse evil. That's boring. It is. It's not real. Your point. It's the why behind what they're doing. Not what? Okay. So the shadows, the shadows are preventing a war, but they're doing it trying to bring the best out of people and have that those be the qualities that that regenerate down through the through the generations because of survivors. Right. Yeah. They see natural survival of the fittest type. Right. The war lawns are doing this because this is how they think. Whatever. Sheridan is making a choice to set aside his own personal grievance and look at the bigger hole. Whereas what is the choice? Both shadows and war lines are making. Look at my thing. They're not worried about the whole. They're worried about their own thing.

[1:08:19] Oh, Jeff! In that exact moment is where Sheridan cracked the code and he doesn't even know it yet. This is where Sheridan becomes the hero because he's, and what does Dylan say? You're about something greater than yourself. The Vorlons and Shadows, by this point, were no longer about something greater than themselves. They were just about themselves. And as soon as he becomes about more than himself and a bigger picture, the only natural progression is for him to say, get the hell out of my galaxy.

[1:08:48] And what's he say? He'll die doing it. You go to Zaha Doom, you'll die. Then I'll die. Then I'll die. Let's go. And it's exactly what he does. Jeff, five Deltas. Sure. If we were doing Deltas. But we're not doing Deltas anymore, right? We're not. But you know what we are doing? What are we doing? ranking this bad boy brenton it's your responsibility this week i'm gonna go ahead and list off uh the in the top space is the coming of shadows where does this one go okay here's what i'm gonna do you got a pin right next to you jeff uh yeah okay i'm gonna write a number on my hand okay i want you to write a number on your hand and then we're gonna count to three and we're both gonna reveal the number at the exact same time okay hold on let me make sure i got ink working on this thing okay.

[1:09:31] That's hilarious. You ready? Yep. I don't know. I might turn my hand around and this will be upside down with the camera. I'm not sure. Are you ready? Yep. All right. Three, two, one, go. There it is. Yeah. It's the new. Oh, you did the thing. Yeah. I just held up the number. For the audio people, Jeff's throwing. He's got, we've both got number ones on our list because this is the new number one episode. And Jeff just dropped a Vulcan salute on that. I was going to do a different number one, but I remembered that this is a family from your show. And you've already dropped two sensor bombs that we need to plug in. Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah, this is the new number one, Jeff. I mean, there's coming shadows is great. But my gosh, where did this episode wind up in our actual first finale? Oh, man. People are already mad at me, Brent. I don't know that I want to answer this question.

[1:10:23] So it's final ranking. Long Twilight Struggle. Yeah. Coming of Shadows. Okay race through dark places shadows okay why right because the why does matter, jeff says and i quote this really should be the new number one but i kind of don't care about the shadow stuff i'm more into the earth stuff and there wasn't much of that yeah so i'm putting it at number three you said we had one episode that that punched it down you said oh shoot, said, huh, huh, should probably be number four, though. We were insufferable and idiots. And idiots. 100% about as dumb as they come. Oh, my gosh. To our community who bore with us for the first time, I'm sorry. And thank you.

[1:11:19] My God. That's it for the Shadows of Hadum. We're going to shift gears next week. We're going to be watching an episode called Knives. Do you remember, Brent? what your prediction for knives was i i do i said this one was going to be a murder mystery, we're going to have an inspector coming to the station where he's going to put delin and sheridan through a trial in which to determine the word oh wait that's a different episode no uh there's an inspector coming to the station he's going to interview everyone everyone's going to look guilty but it turns out it's going to be him himself who did the murder thing knives we both talked about how just by title alone this sounds like it's going to be kind of a shift downward in momentum from what it is like oh we just had this high point this is going to be kind of the the dip in it all you know amazon may have been right to flip-flop the order of these two yeah i think there is a so we followed a very specific view order that one of our good friends gave us and there were there's controversy about all the viewing orders that exist yeah but yeah it probably would have served us well to flip these.

[1:12:29] My prediction was that there'll be an assassination attempt from some random Narn against Londo, and Jakar is going to have to step in to avoid an intergalactic incident that would have cost the Narn everything. We're going to get some cool stuff, though. I personally am excited for the Stargate references that exist in Knives that you were excited for me to see the first time around that now I'm going to get. Oh, there you go. I don't know how many actual Stargate references other than it's the guy. Right, yeah, we get some Jacob in there. And we're going to see all that right here next week. I'm excited for this episode. Brent, thank you all for joining us on this incredible watch of In the Shadow of Zaha Doom. I think you're going to dig our watch of knives as well. To make sure you don't miss that, go ahead, make sure you're subscribed. Hit the little button real quick, just takes a second. While you're at it, leave a comment, leave a rating, leave a review, You do all those cool things as well. Also, pretty much every podcasting app, YouTube, and everything else has a little share button next to it. Go ahead, click that, and send it to the top three people that show up on your little thing, whether it's messages or Discord or whatever. Send it to three of them. Share it with some of those people that you talk to on a regular basis. So until next week. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, Brent, what's up? Hey, you know how Kosh told Sheridan that if he goes to Zahadoom, he would die? Yeah, sure, yeah. Well, guess what? I went to Zahadu.

[1:13:56] Didn't die. Crying out loud.