B5 Infection

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I am Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time.

Jeff: We're two veterans star Trek, podcasters that are watching Babylon five for the first time. We're watching it for star Trek, like messages in the series, and ultimately deciding if we should have watched this a little sooner.

Brent: That's right, Jeff. And while this is not a podcast about star Trek, we are sure to pull in those references because that's what we do and how could we not do that? So to help us with that, uh, Jeff and I have come up with a game. This is a game Jeff, more than anything, it's just for fun. But our rule is we get three Trek references each and every time we use one, you will hear.

And once you use three, you're done for the episode, at least until we get to the end where we actually do the, how does this compare to star Trek part. But outside of that, that's all you get. So Jeff, choose your references carefully.

Jeff: Not going to lie. It's going to be tough in this one. And speaking of this one today, we're going to be discussing episode four infection. So for those that, that might have been a while since you've watched Babylon five or those who just have never watched it before, or have not watched it at all and are just listening along with us.

Brent, why don't you tell us about the episode?

Brent: It's the second anniversary of Babylon five coming online. And there's a reporter lurking around that Sinclair has been avoiding, which of course means that it's the perfect time for Dr. Franklin to receive a surprise visit from sketchy old professor Vance and professor Vance's even sketchy or assistant Nelson who smuggling in some sort of high-tech artists artifacts, some sort of high-tech artifacts from a dead world at Cora seven, and he's going to kill the customs officer in order to do.

Uh, Dr. Franklin scans the tech and realizes that it's a new type of organic tech, which some of the other species have, but earthlings don't and it's pretty cool, but it's also pretty dangerous. Franklin and vans are going to go off to, uh, argue about it. And meanwhile, Nelson's going to touch it except the artifact is going to touch him back.

And the artifact is clearly starting to take over Nelson and he eventually attaches one of the artifacts to his chest and a transformation begins to accelerate. And now he's zapping people with an energy ball, yelling, protect every time he does it. And one of those people is actually Dr. Franklin himself, the absurdity, and I have no better word for it than the absurdity escalates until Nelson looks like a huge Rolli poli unrolled up until Dr.

Franklin gives us the details. Basically the occurrence just kept getting rolled by aliens until they developed organic weapons designed to take out anyone who wasn't a pure a Caren. And it works so well that when they were done eradicating the aliens, the tech turned on the Carnes themselves because no one is truly pure anything.

And that led to the destruction of their civilization, which then led to their world turning into a complete wasteland. So with this knowledge Sinclair logic south, that he can talk to it or at least make it really, really mad, which he does. And in a very Picard light conversation, that's not a reference accounts.

Sinclair makes the artifact monster realized that it was their purity obsession that led to them destroying the world that they were sworn to protect. And in his grief over the truth, the artifact detaches itself from Nelson saving the day. And with more day new, more than the Lord of the rings movie, Sinclair has his Dumbledore moments and finally gives that interview with.

Jeff: that's the greatest recap I've ever heard. I mean, end episode. How are we? That was great. Brent.

Brent: There's only been four so far.

Jeff: Hey, you know

Brent: worm to top it.

Jeff: I don't know. He's just set the bar pretty dang high.

Brent: Jeff talked to us about this episode. We've both watched this now for the very first time. Uh, what are your, I guess, sort of opening avalanche of thoughts as you watch this episode infection.

Jeff: My opening salvo. Well, first Sinclair Sinclair's. Um, we've talked about this a lot. He does everything he's everywhere. And the episode literally starts out with the reporter. Who's a total trope, by the way, who just come that people have a right to know command our San Claire. Oh, geez, come on. Just it's awful.

But she just calls him out. Like he's doing this in Garibaldi agrees, right? She's like, he's doing everything. And he says, this is a real, it's a real problem in this culminates. They're going to go fight, you know, big pill, bug guy, you know, or whatever. Kara bald has got a whole security team. They go down with their little weird guns that I'm not sure what they're shooting as little, a little weird, but Sinclair literally walks down, grabs a weapon out of a trained security officers, hands you SERPs, Garibaldi, all command and sabotages and undercuts him in front of everybody.

That's working. The fact that the reporter brought it up, uh, it makes me think this is going to be a thing in Babylon five. And I hope it is because it's a problem, man. Like, it's not good.

Brent: Well, it should be, especially considering the fact that Garibaldi addressed it with Sinclair later. And one of the multiple denouement of the episode, he's like, dude, and we've said this since episode one. Sinclair's in too much, he's doing too much. And I love the fact that the show's not blind to it.

Like we, we kind of held this criticism, like, what are they doing? This is just ridiculous. The fact that it's actually turning into a plot point actually makes me breathe a little easier about those first couple of episodes. And, and even through this one, cause you're right, he is a problem. And the good news is the show is addressing it.

And I think we're going to, it's going to be a compart of his story and we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about the weather twos and why fours of that a

Jeff: Yes, cause yeah, there's, this is a packed episode. Like there's so much that they kind of cram in, in weird spots in this, but speaking of cramming in weird spots, um, is it just me or is Garibaldi becoming more and more of a skis? Like every episode

Brent: Really? I thought he was coming less of a skis in this one.

Jeff: maybe I'm maybe I'm too focused on one. scene.

And so that opening right with him and the reporter and he's literally just like, Hey, I want to make this clear. I really enjoy your broadcasts. Like, I mean, he, I mean, it's just like, wow, man, like not even. even subtle, but in that scene, there's an alien, they're selling some stuff. Like, it looks like ginger root Or something.

It's either, either an aphrodisiac or something else,

Brent: Or floor

Jeff: your floor

Brent: It was an aphrodisiac arose floor wax.

Jeff: So he goes to buy it and he says, and he says, if, uh, what'd he say, if that thing leaves a waxy buildup on anything, I'm going to be back. Right. He was totally going to use it. I mean, I get, wow. They went for it. They went for it and well, he went for it, I guess.

Brent: It's it's funny. I, I don't, you know, but the thing was is he wasn't sitting there looking at the reportedly. Hey, you want to come back to my place and I'll show you my second favorite thing in the universe. Like he wasn't doing that. That was creepy and skeezy this time, he was just like, Hey, I kind of like you, this is really cool.

You know? And he was, he was, he was, he was just throwing it out there and seeing if there was any kind of response,

Jeff: I feel

Brent: he wasn't being creepy about it. I didn't see me. He just was very direct. Like, Hey, I like your reporting. And then listen, if he wants to hang out with ginger root or floor wax or whatever, and I'm not judging a man

Jeff: it's not just your last best hope for peace. I mean, you know, it's whatever floats your boat, man, like

Brent: best hope for love, man.

Jeff: right. Let that freak flag fly.

Brent: There you go.

Jeff: good. But I wonder too, like with that reporter, if this was the inspiration for that, uh, it's always sunny in Philadelphia episode where the trap tonight, the Walmart with the reporter and Dennis is basically Garibaldi and in the episode seeds getting planted on Garibaldi, you've been talking a lot through the last couple of episodes about like, There's no security for.

On Babylon five, except for like when they go fight the pill bug they're down there. Literally, if there was a security force doing their job, this episode wouldn't have happened. Everything in this episode happened because a customs inspector was left alone with the person whose stuff was getting inspected. The whole scene. I'm just like, what is what's even happening here?

Brent: no armed guard in the warehouse. There's nothing, you

Jeff: And then customs, guy's an idiot. He's just like with the guy Sandy in there and this Nelson guy, I mean, he's not waiting until after the rain, he's ready to come at you right away. And it's just like behind his back. And he's like, Hey, I didn't know,

better. I got a couple extra inches in here. You'd be smelling. What do you want to die, dude? There's no one here. You're alone in the warehouse. But literally this, the fact Garibaldi.

Brent: I have a theory on that

Jeff: Okay, let me hear it.

Brent: uh, he was, he was setting him up for a bribe. He was like, it looks like this is about four inches deeper. You could be Mulan something if you want a, you know, so I could overlook it. Like that was my theory. That that's why he did it. That that's. But outside of that, you're right.

He's dumb.

Jeff: system. It's just dumb. I can't, I mean, I, I love Garibaldi his skill in his position as an individual. I think he's highly effective as an individual, but what do they have? Like four people on the whole station of quarter-million people like doing security that's I don't know. It's ridiculous.

Brent: Let's, let's just hope that it truly is something as inane in like production world that just didn't have the budget.

Jeff: So,

Brent: put it out. Like, let's just hope it's, it's really something more real world than in universe. Like they're there, we just can't see them on screen. Cause we can't afford it.

Jeff: Yeah, but if they were, if they were there though, Like a guy wouldn't have been able to attack him, you know, and I think it's a, it's a thing that Battlestar Galactica was really good at this. Like Battlestar Galactica felt huge and packed and uncomfortable, but it.

had a massive budget. Right. So, and I think other Saifai series that didn't have as big a budgets or whatever they had those sparse hallways, you know, or whatever in this here, it's just like,

Brent: Well, I don't know. Okay. Um, but I know the original series of star Trek. I always, I don't care. I always felt that the enterprise felt packed that there was always people walking through the hallways. And I don't mean like on next generation where it was like one person passing by, it always felt like there were people in the hallways going back and forth across the, across the enterprise.

So I, I. I agree. It didn't feel like that in what we'll call the Berman era stuff. But the original series, I,

Jeff: I agree.

Brent: it felt pretty packed.

Jeff: But I think also I think like the rules were different, you know, like you could bring extras on stuff like that. it. wasn't as much of a budget. It's just like, Hey, we got some costumes, throw this on, walk down the hallway, don't make eye contact with Shatner, whatever you do.

Brent: Or it literally could be like, Hey, grip, gaffer, go throw a shirt on and walk through the scene real quick. Like it could be that like, you didn't have to be an extra, it could just be your here. Go do this

Jeff: Yeah. But you're Right, It felt lived in a big where's all the Berman era stuff was like, Hey, there's 1100 people on the enterprise and there's two in the hallway or there's eight people in 10 forward kind of a thing. Yeah. But yeah, this was, that whole thing was, I don't know. It was pretty bad. What I liked though, in the security scene when they were having the they're fighting the big monster guy to LAR, um, Nelson slash to LAR in There But I kind of dug the makeup for the monster. Like it was pretty effective. Let me be clear, the makeup and the lighting together. They did a really good job. I thought with the lighting to kind of hide the flaws in the makeup. So really you just like, you just saw mid nineties kind of corny, big armored monster.

And I thought it was pretty effective for its time. That's to my little asterix There for its time. But the last thing, big thing for me on this one, I got, I don't have a sound for this one, but I got to celebrate because I think I've nailed something in this pro earth movements. Hate groups going after aliens.

Yep. They, they, they outright said it and watching this literally got like three hours ago. Um, wow. This is. so relevant to our world today, but, uh, yup. So here we go. Here we go with hate groups and the whole thing with pro uh, pro.

Brent: You know, and I remember a couple of weeks ago during, I think it was our first episode of midnight on the firing line, we were taught, like, they mentioned that this is what the earth president won on the platform of. And we were like, I w I don't think we, we thought that it was necessarily a bad thing.

We were just questioning what does that mean? And now it seems to understand that that actually is not a good thing.

Jeff: exactly.

Brent: And, uh, that's unfortunate. And so this president has one on a platform of preserving earth cultures, and

Jeff: yeah. And, and they're doing it violently and there, and the end of the episode or near the end of the episode, when they come and they sees this organic tech, these bio biological weapons or whatever, I Yvanova's awesome. And I'm just holding on to some of that stuff here for the closing on it, but where she's just like, oh, here we go.

I'm going to go get a drink with these aliens over here. Like, I love that too, because I feel like. She identifies with the aliens because I got an ideological level, which I just think, I don't know. Yeah. I thought it was really great how she played that whole thing, but also just how subtle that was at the end.

It wasn't subtle, but it was just at the end. They're just like, Hey, we're taking these weapons also. Like we're totally gonna kill aliens with them. I was like, whoa. So what did I miss? What, uh,

Brent: did you, did you not see what it did to this other world over here

Jeff: w or what did just did here on the station? Like, yeah, like there was one there's the one scene, like, think it was like the second group of people that he killed that, like, it was like nuclear, Armageddon. They were piles of dust and their shadows were left on the wall. And it's like, yeah, like he did that when he was still growing in power.

And now you want to like, put that into mass production somehow.

Brent: Yeah. Uh, so I'll tell you my opening experience with this show. Um, this is how I was going to give it to you. And I will stand by this. This show was hot stinking, messy, filthy garbage. It was bad. This made this made soul hunter look like Oscar worthy type filmmaking. It was that casting, the directing, the acting, the scripting.

And I'm going to disagree with you about the makeup. This whole pill bug guy will looked. It looked like Babylon five was trying to go horror movie slash predator slash something. It was bad. I'm with you on the whole lighting, kind of covered some stuff up, but still it was bad. And then we hit the 27 minute mark and this show, this does not count as a reference, but this show got star Trek real quick.

I mean, real quick, it, there there's a solution. And the solution is to talk about it. You, you find out that you can reason with it, that there's a humanity. You find the humanity, you appeal to the humanity and, and you, you solve your problem that way. Not with violence and not with destruction. And now it becomes a pretty good show.

And as I even said, in the recap, there's even this whole piece where it kind of turns into at some point, uh, uh, Dumbledore sitting on Harry's bed at the end of a Harry Potter novel explaining the moral and what he should have learned over the. You know, the time may come where you have to choose what is good and what is easy.

You kind of have that talk that's going on. And then there's the, oh, I mean, it just, I, it, it turned into honestly a really good episode for the last

Jeff: the last

Brent: minutes. Yeah. But that first 27 minutes, Jeff, like, I'm sitting here too, to go to your point. This lady's walking down the corridor with Jay Garibaldi and I'm like, wait, is this the telepath?

Who is she? What's going on with her? Oh, no, she's a journalist. Okay. And the, the, the doctor, dude, I don't even remember his name. He's back now. All of a sudden, oh, he's got a friend who just comes in. We should, we have known who this guy is. What's going on here? Wait, who are these guys in the cargo bay?

Who's this guy doing stuff. Who's this other guy. Wait, did he just kill that? What is going on? I don't know anything.

Jeff: I need an adult. I need an adult. What's happened.

Brent: somebody to tell me what's going on. You know, and it's like, and then you get like living machines. Wait, did we go to Battlestar Galactica? Is this, Cylons now in here? You know?

And then, and then he gets the little shock from the box where he goes, I'm going to touch it. And, and, and it, you know, it shocks them and you're like, oh, well, there's a scifi trope that I've seen in every single scifi show ever, because now he's going to get infected and oh yeah, look, it's on the back of his hand and it's spreading, he got infected.

I believe I've seen that. I can't say Chris, you're gonna buzz me anyway.

Jeff: see it 10,000 times

Brent: yeah. I

Jeff: you

Brent: devolving in transforming, like, okay, I've done it,

Jeff: I th when I gotta say there two things really quick one, thank God. This wasn't what we thought it was going to be. And when he started, like, he got shocked and it showed like his skin going in his face was I'm like, oh God, here we go. It's just going to be this.

And then it, took a turn. That was good. But I did like, well, I don't want to say a light. Notable where like, so he gets the thing and then he grabs the big pill bug that turns into a face hugger, total, like total face hugger out of alien. Oh, going for your chest. Oh, okay. Also, apparently not permanent because you can just take it off when, whenever that was the weird, that was a weird resolution to that whole thing.

Brent: Yeah.

And it left like a little hole right here, you

Jeff: Although it took four seconds for him to just turn into like, you know? clean naked guy, all of a sudden.

Brent: Well, you know, I mean, it's, it's the beast at the end when the rose pedal and beer belt cried on him and you know, all of a sudden he comes back, it's like, oh, look at

Jeff: Just like that. Yeah.

Brent: There you

Jeff: I works.

Brent: Got so, yeah, I mean, ultimately Jeff that's, that's where I came down to it. Like, like the first 27 minutes I was rolling my eyes.

Like I honestly didn't even want to finish the episode. And I think I texted, like we were texting, texting about recording this episode. I was like, this one, ain't gonna take very long, man. This, this is a hot piece of garbage. There's nothing to. And then it turned on a dime and I just went, oh, and it was like every other line.

I'm like, oh my gosh. Oh, oh, look at that. Oh, that's amazing. You know? And I was like, oh, he's still gonna kill. Oh no, he's not going to go, oh, look, there he is. He's talking to him now. I was like, yeah, well that changes things.

Jeff: It's like two totally different episodes. I mean, really? I think let's, let's talk about the casting because I mean, just ducky from ensis coming in and being like bad-ass hardcore university professor. I mean immediately I loved Dr. Franklin. I think I like, I think he's great. I love his attitude. I love his swagger, but this guy comes in and he's just like big head nerdy, white dude, trying to act like, like, look how bad-ass I am just back at university stop.

Like I'm already out. All right.

Brent: I got, I got to tell you in zero way, shape or form. Did I buy that this guy was a university professor of Dr. Franklin when he was a student.

Jeff: Franklin is six years older than this guy. I'm like,

yeah.

Brent: right.

Jeff: And so brilliant on top of it. It's just like really?

Brent: This guy was one of my best students ever in the history of students. And I'm like, no, you guys were classmates at

Jeff: At best. Yeah.

I liked in there though. I think Franklin just asked a lot of really great challenging questions and gave us a lot of the, the premise, one of those in some of the takeaways we got around capitalism, around self discovery, things like that. But one thing that I thought was cool is they talked about the concept of a living ship.

Right. You know, and that congeners and weapons that can generate their own power. That apparently the remember them. Remember the war lawn. They mentioned them. I don't know, like six episodes ago.

Brent: Yeah. We're five episodes into the entire run and that's including the pilot and we've only seen them twice.

Jeff: And for like a grand total of like four minutes And that whole time, so yeah, there's, there's this some race called the lawn. It apparently have despite illogical technology in there. And then they're guessing the men

Brent: the men Bari. Yeah.

Jeff: And there, I think that's a big thing that's, that's got to, I think that's the thing I really like is in, uh, like in like video games, mass effect, even, even other scifi franchises, I'm dancing around it there.

Cause I want to hold on to them. But all the different races are generally like on a level technologically, you know, plus or minus a little or to the side, there are dramatic differences in the technique. And I liked that. Like that's, that's, we'll, that's like, that's how it's going to be in there. This really just kind of punctuated that for me.

And then.

Brent: And honestly, that is more, I think, representative of what we have here on earth today. With our various nation states around the world. Like we have different countries that are on very different technological levels. There are some that are, Hey, we're all kind of on this level. But the way that usually scifi shows is like, okay, everybody's either on nuclear power or your village tribes out in the Outback somewhere.

Jeff: no in

Brent: Like there's very few images or you're like, you're like 18 hundreds, whatever turn of the century. Like sometimes you get that. But like you're, you're not, it's not like, Hey, we're all living in this current world. It's just, this particular group has this whole technology that we can't even fathom just yet.

And my God, if we could get our hands on that technology, like it's not some prideful like, oh, we can't share technology with those who are lesser developed than us. It's not at all. We CA we're not sharing technology because that gives us a technical advantage, a strategic advantage over you in case something goes down.

Jeff: When this, when this Babylon five experiment ends, Right.

Cause Lloyd's of London put the odds at 500 to one. It wouldn't last a year. You know, I thought I actually really liked that, how the reporter, like the way they use her to come in and be like, this was supposed to completely fail. And I have questions.

I want to know why it hasn't failed in there. I thought that. was pretty cool. But Yeah, like we've talked about so many times already on these couple episodes that we've had, everybody's ready for the next big war. And so they're trying to hold on to those, those different pieces. But I think there's also this huge underpinning of like the, the evils of capitalism in there that Dr.

Franklin and ducky, or the ducky Vance, uh, really play out in the whole thing where he's just like, you know, I could get, I could get millions for this. And he's like, you, you risk 250,000 people to test a theory. So you could increase your profit margins. And Vance's like, well, yeah,

I totally did. So I'm curious was that company called?

That was an interplanetary expeditions. I think that hired him. I wonder if they're good. He said it was a front, so I don't know if that's just like a throw away, like, oh yeah. there's an IRR or whatever. Or if they're going to become, that's like a thing and they're out there stealing what'd Franklin, say, uh, grave robbing they're out there.

Grave robbing.

Brent: Yeah. I, I didn't, I didn't necessarily see it as a commentary on capitalism, but as much as like, uh, we saw this a lot with the show 24, if you ever watched 24, like that should always there, there's some big terrorist threat and it's going to be, you know, some guy from a Muslim country because you know, all terrorists are Muslims.

Okay, wait, we got three seasons and it can't be a Muslim again, because that's just racist. So now we're going to make the guy a Russian or whatever, but usually by like episode 16 or 18, what you wrote. Is those guys weren't the real enemy. Anyway, the real guy was some rich white guy out there, somewhere, some power behind it.

And that's what this felt like to me. Like it, it felt very tropey, which, I mean, I guess you tie it to capitalism. I just called it greed. It's just like, I don't know that that's capitalism as much as it is just greed. Although maybe they're one in the same. I don't know. Um, I don't, I don't get into economics too much to be honest with you, but, uh, yeah, it just, like, I kind of rolled my eyes at it.

I'm sure it was, it was much better at 1994 when it hadn't been so overdone, but today I was just like, oh, of course, of course. That's the real reason that's going on here. That's really what's happening. But I mean, okay. Can we talk about vans for a little bit, because

I can't figure this guy out. He comes in and he's, he's, he's throwing himself around, like he's running the whole station and the whole medical. It was like, Hey, you're my favorite student. And I'm just going to walk into your place and sit at your desk and kick my feet up on your desk. Okay. Like, that's the attitude he has going around.

I'm going to make you an offer. You can't refuse the greatest adventure of your life. And, but I'm not going to tell you about it now I'll tell you about it later. And, and he's, he goes through and it's like, oh yeah, we've, we've, we've got all the paperwork and my dudes got it. And we had it, he's lying through his teeth.

He knows that this hasn't passed quarantine in any situation. And, and then when everything goes to crap, he's like, I can't believe that this happened. Well,

Jeff: everything was going to be

Brent: he said, well, if I'm really the one responsible for bringing this here, then surely I want to be the one who helps you, you know? And I'm like, really?

Does he really? Or is he just kind of putting that on trying to sound good? And then he kind of gets to the end and you're like, yeah, listen, I just did this for the money. Uh, you know, I did it for the Benjamins. Yo, let's go. And I'm like, I know, you know, and, and him and Franklin kind of have it out, but, you know, remember a couple of weeks ago we were talking about what had happens if Dzhokhar and Londo got into a

Jeff: oh yeah.

Brent: apply that conversation to Franklin and Vance Franklin would drop Vance in a heartbeat.

Jeff: and he did, I mean, verbally, right. And Yeah.

I mean, it happened, I think so in, in my real life world, I, without giving too much, I work a lot in criminal records. I understand criminal records very well. And, and the impacts that has on, on recidivism and, and, and all that kind of stuff. What, what Vance does here actually is what I wish, what I wish so many other criminals would actually do.

And that's like, so he had his plan, he had everything he tried, you know, I would tell this person, this version of the story, this person, this version, but as soon as he was called on it, he was just like, okay, like you got me. Here's, here's my bond villain speech, you know about, I did it for the money.

Security shows up. He doesn't argue, he just walks out with them and he's like, you got me, you win. And I said, dude, if more people could just do that. That's great. You know? Cool. You're motivated by millions. I get it. You're an underpaid university professor. You made that abundantly clear how just broke.

You are cool. You were motivated, but you got caught and I, I don't know. I guess, I guess what I've got to say, and in the end, I kind of respect that. He just took his lump at the end of the whole thing.

Brent: I was watching a YouTube video earlier today with my kid. It was a compilation of, uh, people that, that take off running on, on professional sports fields, you know, and, and we're watching the cops like run these people down and tackle them. And like, there is a couple of people that like, eventually they just stopped in the middle of the field and just let the guys come get them.

And like, they just walked off like arm and arm, you know, like occasionally somebody would be really pissed. They'd put some guy in some sort of like health Nelson. I'm like, that's unnecessary, man. He, he had stopped each.

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: You know, but like one guy, like he saw him put his arm around the dude. I was like, come on, let's go.

You know, you're not getting away from me now. You know, you're fine. Let's go. I mean, yeah,

Jeff: I mean, it's human it's human nature. Try to get away. Sure. Do it. You know, I get it. That's all right. But when you're caught, you're caught, you know, and, and he did. And I think, Yeah,

I, I agree. I don't know that it's a capitalism thing. It's a, it's a money thing, you know, just threw out a lot of the terms, like profit margin and stuff like that.

And I think that nowadays,

Brent: it's certainly is greed and, and I I'm, I'm happy to apply that word to it and you know, motivated by, you know, that's a lot of money.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: I mean, somebody flashes millions in front of you. You're like, ah, and he was like, I thought I could control it. I didn't think he'd go that far. I thought I'd control it.

And you're like, you're still responsible. Say that to all the dead people

Jeff: exactly. All the doubt, all the damage in the station in there. and I think too. Okay. Here's my, here's my little prediction for the future, because we've been led to believe that there's not wasted airtime in this, you know, in this series. So I think this, we learned that the reason it melded with Nelson was because he was willing to kill.

That's why it didn't meld with Vance or anybody else. So this is going to become a thing down the line. The earth earth forces are going to develop this technology. And it's going to be some theme tied to, I dunno what it will look like. But someone having that, that drive that ability to kill somebody.

Could you do that? Like, are you, are you, I'm going to go deep here? Yeah. Could you kill somebody? Are you going to be to LAR.

Brent: that, uh, you know, here's, it's real easy to think of what you would do sitting in a chair behind a microphone and my nice air conditioned office here in my home. No, I don't think I would kill somebody if the chips were down. Could it happen? I, I know my own depravity. I know the level to which I can send, like, you know what I mean?

Like, like it's, it, it wouldn't shock me if something happened, but you know, I mean, I also, I got to tell you, like, if, uh, some I got, I got a daughter, you do too. If somebody ever did something to my daughter. Oh, I, I, you know, the only thing that would stop me is the thought that I'd still have to be around for my son and my wife.

Like, you know, I can't go do something that takes me away from them too, you know? But yeah, I would, I would lose my stuff if somebody did something and I wouldn't care. So I could, I could get there for sure. Uh, would I be that just in general? Probably

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: Am I, I'm not that

Jeff: I wasn't. Yeah. And I wasn't asking to be like

Brent, uh, would you would, but I was doing, because I think you, right. You answered the way I hoped it, which is good. Um, cause if you want a

Brent: value. I value life for the sake of life,

Jeff: And I think that's the thing. Cause I think if you went a different direction with that, we would have, uh, there'd be a big edit in this one.

But, but, but honestly I think that's the thing is I think, I think that we're all capable of killing under the right?

conditions. I think Vance would have been capable of killing in the right conditions, but Nelson was a killer. He killed for the purpose of smuggling, some stuff in. So that's where I think that's the seed that I'm hoping turns into something down the line.

Storyline wise here.

Brent: There, there are, I mean, apply that to the real world, right? Like there are certainly people let's look at the case of a modern robbery just a few years ago, who frankly are looking for a reason to go shoot somebody, you know, it's horrible, but they're actually just there. They're begging for a reason to do.

Uh, and yeah, those would be the people that, this thing, I mean, you know what, this is, it's the venom costume from

Jeff: Oh my God. Yeah.

Brent: You know what I mean? Like that's, that's what it is. So, um, here you go. Let let's talk. I mean, there's, there's a lot of little things going on through here. Um, can we get to the meat of this?

Because that's really, I think where the conversation lies.

Jeff: got.

Brent: So he turns into a pill, bug, roly polies, as they say, where I'm from. Uh, and he's going around in any is, oh, nothing can stop him. And all this stuff in is protect, protect, protect. And Dr. Franklin comes in and says, stop guys, it's a person. And it's got a brain inside of it.

And it's the artifact taking over his body. Okay. Super tropey scifi stuff to this point. But at that point, Sinclair goes so we can talk. We can, we can do that. We'll, let's go do that. And he goes in and you know, I mean, does this CA yeah, this is going to count. I mean, it's, it's the Picard maneuver, right?

It's Kirk, like they all, like, this is what a Starfleet captain does. Like, we're going to go talk to you now. I'm also going to shoot you at the same time. Sinclair says I'm going to blow you out of an airlock, but I'm going to talk to

Jeff: Well, I feel like the blowing out of the airlock was plan B, right. He needed more help. So that's what he said, but, and I, and I, and I appreciate this and I'm going to give myself one on this, cause that's not fair to ride yours on it because I'm going to go deep. you.

mentioned in the opening, how he did the Picard on this and went and talked on it.

I expected, I kept waiting for him to take the Kirk on it. And the Kirk would have been right impure. You're here to fight and kill the impure and Lars like M pure, pure look at yourself to LAR look at your own makeup, your impure. Right. And do the whole like nomad, you know, like out, you know, out computer, the computer, but he didn't.

And I, and I. For the first time and all these episodes, Sinclair, it's like, oh my God, there's something to this guy. Like I thought the acting and the direction leading up to this were middle school, Bush league. Horrible. When he's taunting to Lauren. Oh my God. I hope he felt like a jerk doing that. Cause he, it was terrible, but the content was awesome where he's taught, getting him going, and then he's just like, you're wrong, man.

You're wrong? And then he saw it, like, I know it was, it was so, so good.

Brent: well, I mean, it, it turned into the whole, you know, the Harry Potter thing, and I don't want to get into the whole author of Harry Potter, but the content of Harry Potter, which is one of the big pieces, there is the whole pure blood pure bread thing. And here they've, I mean, they call it out the area and thing from world war two with the Germans.

And nobody's really that like, I mean, that's exactly what I think the metaphor that the Wizarding community was using in Harry Potter, spoiler alert for anybody who hasn't read it, the books are 25 years old now. Um, but you know, the th that whole idea that nobody's really pure because even once you get past the quote-unquote aliens will then you have the sick, you have the infirm, you have people with mutated genes.

I mean, we have this on earth right now. You know, we have genes that are still continuing to mutate and change and, and there's nobody, who's truly whatever. I think they are any turns on them. And again, this, this kind of goes back to, we've seen this in Saifai lots of times. I mean, this it's a little bit Wally, right?

Like you, you know what I mean? Like, like you kind of destroy yourselves because of whatever, then the robots take over and all that, you know? Um, but that whole idea, like, oh, the, the British aristocracy and, and European Royal, you know, we gotta keep the bloodlines pure, right? Like, that's, that's another one as if the bloodline yeah.

Right. As if those bloodlines shirts have some sort of intrinsic value. And I like, um, you know, it's getting really close to the, it's not where, who you're born from, but your own choices that determine who you are. Like, you're getting that. There's, there's a, um, uh, I like, it was, it was so good and, and they.

They get to a point where they say your world is a desert, right? Like he says, dig into the memories of the being that you're in right now, the world is a desert and he's like, oh, and the idea that like, if we were to take out all of the variations that leads you to a desert,

Jeff: Wow. Yeah,

Brent: you know what I mean? Like think of the tapestry that makes up humanity right now.

I'm kind of getting, I think, a little bit into what we would normally do at the end, but this is the middle of the show. Like the tea, think of that tapestry that makes up different. you know what, and they said in the, you know, whether you're tall, small, skinny, fat, a white, black, whatever skin color you are, uh, you know, whoever you choose to love or, or wherever you identify, like all of these things, even down to your religions and you know, what you believe here in what should be there.

Like all go back to our conversation a couple episodes ago about cultures and, and the various cultures we have, like all of these things that make up this tapestry. If you, if you get rid of all of that and you keep it, quote, unquote pure, well, guess what happens? You die. And it becomes a desert. Like there was something so profoundly like beautiful in that, that like, like, I, I kind of fell in love with an episode that the first 27 minutes I said, we're hot, garbage.

And I stand by it. The first 27 minutes were horrible, but the last 20 minutes of this episode,

Jeff: near. Perfect.

Brent: We're so good. You know, I mean, season one, Saifai for sure, but so good with what they were going with.

Jeff: You know, there's a YouTube video that I've always appreciated because it demonstrates the power of diversity. Right. And I think to your metaphor of the desert, it's a person with.

Sandy between two pianos, one pianos tuned regularly, you know, just, uh, you know, the normal, normal keys, normal notes, all the tones, the other one is all tuned to see.

So every single key on the piano is C and the same octave. And so they play a piece on the regular piano and it's, you know, it's beautiful and it's amazing. And it's complex. They go play the exact same piece on the other piano. And it's just the same. It's just, , you know, it sounds like a SOS thing or whatever, and that's, that's what purity is in there.

And we don't want purity. And I think. Well, I mean, heck I mean, you just want to dive in to kind of our closing thoughts. I think, I think we're in there kind of kind of wrapping stuff up into it. Yeah.

Cause I think there's so much that happens in here and it weaves together so well we've had, and you've been really on this point through the episodes of how the a and B stories haven't, um, woven together in any way they've been kind of, you know, plug and play and whatever this time the reporter was kind of the, the B story that was whatever.

But at the

Brent: Didn't make any sense to have her. I'm sorry. Let's, let's call that out. She made no sense to have it in this, in this episode. Yeah, until right. Because it gave him an opportunity to have this conversation, but like she made and I'm to go back to what you said earlier, shoo, the people have a right to know and I'm like, no, they don't,

Jeff: you're in the command center

Brent: you're in the middle of this.

You do not have the right to know what's going on right now. Maybe later, if we choose to let you know, this could be classified stuff, you don't have that right to know.

Jeff: Yeah. It's

Brent: People you do not have the right to know every single little thing that happens out

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: Folks, we don't, it's not our

Jeff: you don't want, and you don't want it. You don't want to know everything. That's just, It's not good. But what she brings though, is that conversation with Sinclair at the end. And so what you have are these, these is multiple things that are happening, where you've got the conversation around racial purity.

You've got the discussion of the pro earth movements that are moving towards that. Not necessarily purity, but definite racism and classism around earth, first human first. And then you have Sinclair wrapping the whole thing up together and basically saying. If we don't expand, if we don't become a member of this galactic community out there, we're all going to die and it's all going to be for nothing.

And I thought in that final scene, everything in this episode for the last 20 minutes of it wrapped together, I mean, perfectly, It was beautiful. It was gorgeous. Yeah. So good.

Brent: He though, the way he started naming bits of earth culture from the past, most of the things we are familiar with today, and they, you know, they sprinkled in a few things that are like, wait, what? And you're like, okay, move that's future stuff. You know, but to say all of that stuff never mattered.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: If we just

Jeff: Means nothing.

Brent: if you leave nothing behind, because you just go, if you don't go to the stars now, what does that look like in the real world? I mean, will earth sun eventually grow cold and the earth die? Scientists say,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: frankly, it is so far in the future. I'm not, I can't even put my mind to that,

Jeff: Not at all.

Brent: you know, can we ever actually go to the star and join some intergalactic community that's happening out there?

I don't know. Nate, like in real life, can we really ever do that? I don't know. Maybe we are the only thing in the universe. I don't know.

Jeff: but you got to think, I mean, look at it. I know, right. It'd be, I think it'd be ridiculous if we were, but I think at a micro level, I mean, just, just think back to what we know of the cradle of civilization, right. Mesopotamia and the Euphrates, right.

Which we've got the Euphrates sector with the Centauri and NARKN a couple episodes ago looking at stuff, but.

Brent: Oh, good call.

Jeff: Imagine if we just stayed there, if no one ever walked across the river, if no one ever climbed a mountain in there. I mean, I don't know what would have happened to us, but we certainly wouldn't have us going to say the world we have now. And that might not be a bad thing necessarily. But honestly we have a lot of incredible stuff in this world.

The fact that you and I Right. now are 3000 miles apart, having a conversation about Babylon five, a show that aired 30 years ago, and we're going to have a whole bunch of people listening into our conversation. That's because some dude in Mesopotamian, their family decided to cross the river. This is Sinclair is arguing for not anything massive or wild.

The heat just wants to cross the Euphrates of space.

Brent: Right. So what do you do when you juxtapose that to the conversation that Sinclair had with Garibaldi? Just a few minutes earlier of like, Hey, you went out to this war, you knew nothing else. Honestly, it sounds like he's, he's got some survivor's guilt and he's like, you're doing anything you can to go out in a blaze of glory.

Like you're tr it's like, you have a death wish you're trying to go out in this blaze of glory because you don't know how to live otherwise, you know, and, and Sinclair goes, you're not wrong. And you juxtapose that to this conversation he has with the reporter at the end. Look, if we don't preserve it, if we don't get out there, if we don't move forward, then it was all for nothing.

How do those two come together? Cause those are two such different ideas from the same character in the same area.

Jeff: I don't think it's that. I mean, the ideas are wildly apart, but I don't think it's that far of a leap. I veterans of war. right.

So I, I, I'm a veteran. I served in Clinton's Navy. Our enemy was. Um, you know, we didn't, we weren't at war when I was in there. So I I'm proud of proud of the opportunity to serve.

Wartime is a whole different thing and war changes you. Um, and I know people I've worked with people where it just you're the constant trauma that you're living under and the constant anxiety and the survival, just the, I mean, day to day, minute to minute, not knowing what's going to happen. You know, I interviewed a guy for a job once a management position in an office.

And one of my questions was about, um, how do you manage conflicting priorities with, with deadlines that are aggressive and, oh, look how important my big office job is kind of thing. And he looked at me and He said, well, how's a Lieutenant in the U S Marine Corps. And I was in Afghanistan. I had 15 people under me and I had to move my team from this side of the street, to the other side of the street.

Um, without stepping on an IED, getting shot or injuring any children or families, um, between here and there. Uh, as we were crossing, bullets were flying out. I just told this story as the whole time he's talking, I'm just like, wow, uh, I'm a. I'm a jerk for even asking that question. I still work with that guy and he's great.

And he does amazing things, but there are times where he has to kind of catch himself and just be like, sorry, I was in a different place. Take that to what we know of the line. We're Sinclair blacked out. Right. And, and it has a hole and all of the massive ramifications out of that. Yeah. Dude's got some trauma that he's still got to work through.

And so he can see that. But I think also he talks about he's an opinionated guy, right? The last time he talked to the press, they literally sent him to the other side of the galaxy to shut them up. So he, he, he could be a philosophical guy. He could be a dreamer, but at the same time, he's literally stared death in the face.

Um, and, and to our earlier conversation about killing he's killed count. I mean, who knows how many beans that he's killed, Yeah. I, so I

Brent: doesn't even

Jeff: Yeah. There's no way.

Brent: you know, Jeffy talking about this. We were talking not too long ago about, um, the idea that we don't really know our captain, we still haven't had a Sinclair centric episode. And I don't know that Babylon five we'll do character centric episodes, you know who wasn't in this episode, Londo and Dzhokhar and Dylan and CAUTI.

Like none of they, none of them were even anywhere near this

Jeff: Barely mentioned.

Brent: right, right. And maybe that's for budgetary reasons. There's I dunno. I feel like if you get your name at the opening credits, you get paid for an episode where.

Jeff: That's what I thought.

Brent: You know, it's why quark pops up in a handful of episodes that he has no business being in.

It's just put a megabyte, he's got to do it for

Jeff: he's getting paid. We're going to get something. out of it.

Brent: Exactly, exactly. Um, but we really like, we're catching these little bits of Sinclair at this 0.4 episodes in, I want to know my captain better or commander. I'm sorry. He's a commander. I want to know the commander better. Like there's these little bits we're exploring it.

We're uncovering a little bit. I still don't feel like I know who he is, you know, like as a person. And I, I like, my heart is desiring to know this guy. Like, I, I want to know not just what his deal is, but who he is as a person. And I, I feel like we're all we've gotten is just this mask that he's put in that he's put up and it's, it's time to get behind that.

Jeff: We know Ivanova better than we know Sinclair. She was in this episode for about 45 seconds and her personality, who she was shown through, you know, and, uh, and his, I

Brent: Her line, her line to the reporter was like, you're too young for this pain,

Jeff: That's I am, I am like every episode. I'm just like, she's awesome. I'm really digging her

Brent: Yeah, I do. I do like her as a character. I really do.

Jeff: But I think as we look at this, right, and look at how star Trek it is, I can't help, but compare this directly, like as a riff on the next generation episode, the hunted, right? So you got Rogan DNR and the super soldiers that were done, the D and that one, it was a different take where the super soldiers were uprising for political reasons.

Right. They didn't like how they were treated. They didn't like what they were forced to do. They still had enough agency to kind of stand up and do.

things. And the end of that episode, um, it's pretty powerful. Right? We're Picard's. Yeah, not my problem, dude, handle it. And a and enterprise took off this one focused more on, on the programming.

And I, and as I'm talking about this, like that, that programming really becomes a piece, these soldiers to LAR or whatever, we're programmed to essentially be murdering racists to the point that they murdered their creators, um, and stuff. So, Yeah, I just, I, I really saw this as a, as a riff on, on a, on a pretty great fun star Trek episode in there.

And I think as we've been talking about the final 20 minutes of this episode, beat for beat was a star Trek episode. Um, and a damn good one, uh, at that. Yeah,

Brent: I just, here's the thing that the show. W w w what do you make of the idea? Like the show wrapped up and then it had like six endings,

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: like

Jeff: like in a big

Brent: I was like,

Jeff: in a big way, this, this is like, okay, so gathering as the pilot, maybe midnight on the firing line is the pilot part one. This is your part two, and now we know what's going on. Now we know what questions we're going to go down. You know, like this, I, I feel more grounded in this world after this episode than I have at any point.

I mean, that's stupid to say, cause we should feel that every time, but like, I feel like I get it and things are starting to thread together.

Brent: All right. Well, Jeff, with that, as we've been talking to. Let's boil it all down and we'll see how much of this show has a star Trekkie quality to it. Does it have a deep moral message? Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that we're going to be better in the future? I don't know that that's it.

So I'm going to toss it to you. First is this episode of Babylon five star Trek or not? How many deltas would you give it?

Jeff: Right. So on a scale of zero to five, zero, not at all. And five, very much star Trek. I, when I was first taking notes at the end of this episode, I wrote down five deltas, but then I looked at my notes and I reflected, and I can't, I can't, I can't give it five Delta's over half of this episode, um, is, is terrible.

It's just, it's not even good. We're four episodes. And I can say the first half of this episode, wasn't even good. Babylon five in there. I I'm going to give this one, four deltas. And I think on top of that, now that I know what this episode ends with, I would absolutely watch this episode again. What about you?

How many Delta is.

Brent: Um, this episode to me is actually, I mean, down the line, exactly what you just said, this episode was going to be no deltas whatsoever. And then we have the 27 mark and the 27 minute mark. I'm like, okay, this has some hope. And then it actually dipped back down for me again, like when we're going to go off and kill them anyway and blow them out the airlock.

And then it came back up and I. This is a star Trek episode through and through even the beginning of it not withstanding. Um, I'll tell you what I think this episode is going to wind up being though Jeff. One of the things I've noticed in doing my show, be me up as where I'm taking a person through star Trek for the very first time.

And they're watching these episodes for the very first time, just like we are here at Babylon five, there are some episodes in star Trek that we as a fandom collectively hold in really high regard episodes like city on the edge of forever episodes, like, like duet in deep space, nine in the pale Moonlight.

Um, far beyond the stars, these sorts of episodes. There are also episodes that we collectively. Like these are the voyages and several others. And what I've noticed in going through this with a first time watch or somebody who doesn't have the, a group think, or the advantage of watching an episode several times, they'll go through.

Like, I, I very clearly remember my co-host Matt, over at beat me up. He watched duet, which is one of the best episodes of all of deep space. Nine, definitely the best episode, I think for season one, it's a fan freaking tastic episode beat for beat. There's not a second. That's bad in it. It's an amazing episode.

And he comes off his first watch and goes, yeah. Sitting on the edge of forever. One of the best, if not the best episodes of the original series, I think it's often held as one of the best episodes of star Trek as a whole. And he goes, eh, yeah. And it really got me thinking, like, I wonder if some of these episodes that we hold in such high rates.

Our only good after multiple rewatch is where you see how deep it is, how interconnected it is and how great it is. And I wonder if this is going to be that kind of a show, Jeff, where for you and I were watching it for the very first time. Like the first one is seven minutes, but I wonder if this is one of those episodes that people rewatch and they go, no, guys, you don't understand how deep the show really is.

Like, it's so good because they now understand the greater context of everything that we just don't have that reference

Jeff: Yeah. And I think there's that piece too, that like, and I've experienced this listening to beat me up where like, Mt. Might not like do it when he watches it, but when you finish the dominion war arc, when you finish these things and look back on it, like, that's the thing I'd be curious, like to ask is like, now that you can look back on duet, um, what is it like when we finish Babylon five?

Or are we going to look back at this and be like, oh my God, This is where it started, like right here.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Or the people out there listening could be like, no, that first 27 minutes, not garbage. There's no redeeming value, but it does X, Y, and Z. And that's why it's important or something like that, which by the way, listeners don't tweet at us and tell

Jeff: Please do

Brent: we'll discover it. We'll discover it along the way.

Okay.

Jeff: So how many deltas?

Brent: Oh four. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. I can't quite give it five. It's not all the way down the line, but, uh, and you're right. He did a little bit of the Picard thing, but he also missed. What also could have happened. Uh, I really didn't like the I'm going to shoot you, shoot, you shoot you, but now I'm going to talk to you and I'm going to shoot you some more.

And now I'm going to talk to you like that. Wasn't quite like this would have been the neuro lay down. Your weapons showed the sign of first peace. So now we can actually have this conference that would have been the star Trekkie way to do it, but still the fact that they went in, they T they, they solved it by talking and appealing to the humanity of the machine.

You can, I mean, that star Trek. How many times have we seen that in star Trek? It's it's for Delta's. Uh, just because of that,

Jeff: Well, that's infection. I do gotta say like, sometimes it's fun. So we're about to do a cool thing or a fun game that we like to play on this And it's where we look at the title of the next episode.

Brent: I always.

forget

Jeff: Yeah. It's one of, it's one of my favorite parts of this that we do, but we, we guess what it is based on the title.

And I'll tell you what, when we saw infection last time, you and I were on the same page, like, oh my God. Oh, we got to suffer through one of

Brent: And honestly, we were right though, because that first 20, like that first 27 minutes, it was, it was beat for beat trope for trope of exactly what infection sounded like. It was going to be, I was mad the whole time

Jeff: here we

Brent: stupid this episode and I was right.

Jeff: And then.

Brent: I'm glad I

Jeff: Dead wrong. and really well.

Brent: And I'm so glad for it.

Jeff: So this one's going to be interesting. Um, the next episode it's called the parliament of dreams. I'm not thinking George Clinton is in it.

So, uh, so what do you, a Parliament of dreams. What do you think that's going to be

Brent: Parliament of dreams. Okay. Um, I think it is, I think it's time for a CAUTI episode. This is going to be a cautious episode. We've had Dzhokhar in LA. We've had Dillin with soul hunter. Uh, we had Chikara and Londo again, and then we had Dr. Franklin. So I'm going to go with cautious this time. I think it's a cautious episode because apparently we're not getting Sinclair and the parliament of dreams.

Um,

gosh. Um, okay. So cautious, uh, is, uh, uh, Medusa, right? Like he's a body list form. It exists in this sort of psycho kinetic energy. So we're going to learn what cost actually is, you know, is, is he, is he a light life form? Is he a plasma? Like what is he add? And obviously I think cautious something mentally, like we, we know about telepaths and stuff like this.

So there's going to be something that like, something about how your psyche is. Within the Babylon five and like Kosh can like, maybe he can control people's minds or something like that or something, how it mixes with the T. Maybe it would be a Battelle telepath

Jeff: oh yeah. Cause it was her too.

Brent: go together.

Something like that. That's I think that's all I got. It's I'm probably being way too literal for what it actually is going to be about.

Jeff: Well, I'm on board with the caution, because I was thinking about.

1. We've had two episodes now in a row, um, born into the purple in this that haven't barely even mention them in Bari if at all. Um, and the Orlon have been a passing thing at best. And so my thoughts similar, we're going to get, we're going to get some caution.

I think we're going to get some more Dylan, but I think this is going to be about, um, I don't know, somehow we're just wrapping. We're going to see the council, the league, what's it called? The, um, league of non-aligned worlds. Um, the galactic Senate, basically. Uh, I think we're going to see some more of that.

I hope that we get, we talked about, I want it, I want to know something about Devor lawn. That's what I'm hoping, but what's cool. Brent, we're going to find out right here next week. I want to thank you for joining us for this episode. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening to this. Even if you don't listen on apple podcasts, it truly does make a difference when you have those ratings and reviews that helps us out tremendously.

Please head over to apple

Brent: Do you know, do you know, why do you

Jeff: I do know but you, you got this. Yeah,

Brent: I just say podcasters, you say all the time. Oh, it helps push us up in the ratings and stuff. No, it really doesn't do that. But we have this thing in our society called social proofing. When you want to know if a product on Amazon is good, you go look at the reviews and see what people have.

And it helps us in that way by you sit and go. I love Babylon five for the first time. And when you say that other people that are looking for Babylon five podcasts are just sort of come across this sort of show. They go, huh? Look at that. Other people have liked it. Let me check it out too. That's how it directly helps it.

Doesn't do some weird algorithm thing. It just lets other people know that you love the show. And that's really how it helps. And it honestly, it just gives Jeff and I warm fuzzies too, to know that you like

Jeff: It totally feels good. And one thing we can offer for that, you go to apple podcasts, leave us a rating review. We'll give you some love off of our Twitter page at Babylon. First, give us a follow. We're going to let the world know that you left us a great review and we are going to appreciate it more than you can possibly know.

So until next time, thank you for joining us on this. Our last best hope for peace.

Brent: live long and

Jeff: Nope. It’s not a Star Trek podcast.