Interludes and Examinations

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Aiken and I am here, gathered here today in potential Memorium as I watch Babylon 5 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon 5 for the first time. Jeff Brent, doing over. You doing

Jeff: okay over there pal? Oh, I'm doing all right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring it up here while we, we do the intro, but we'll get to the recap here momentarily and you'll kind of see where, where I'm at in my head space.

Yeah, you're, you're

Brent: little. Just a little somber today, folks. Wells, the

Jeff: heavy episode we're heading into. We'll,

Brent: well, we'll, we'll let Jeff be there because this show is all about our experiences watching Babble on five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters, and we've decided to take that over analytical lens of looking for messages and meanings and, uh, hope of the future and that sort of stuff in sci-fi.

And we're applying it right here to babble on five as we go through it for the very first time.

Jeff: This is not a podcast about Star Trek, but Brent and I are veteran. Star Trek podcasters. So the references are sure to make their way into this. To keep us honest and focused on Babylon five, we play the rule of three, which is a game where we are limited a piece to just three references to Star Trek.

That's it.

Brent: Three, no substitutions. Exchanges are refund. Hey Brent. Hey Jeff. We have

Jeff: a five star RIV .

Brent: Yes. Hey Jeff, just, just remember you're somber right

Jeff: now. I'm excited. Okay. Anytime we get feedback from our community out there. And there's some great stuff here. This one, it's from a listener on Apple Podcasts named No spoilers, please.

Great, thank you. . Oh yes, I just binged all the episodes through now. Wow. Thank for, that's a lot of Jeff and Bread. Just binged all the episodes through now, so I have to give this podcast a five star review. Keep it up. They, oh, okay.

Brent: Does it say when they started, like how, how long did this binge take?

Jeff: Hold on.

I have some weird editing in here that messed me up. I apologized.

Brent: Told you guys, this is the behind the scenes. Why does

Jeff: that even do? Okay, here we go. Outtakes. That's all fun. So I'm gonna pop in a little bit again. Yeah, so I binged all the episodes through now, so I have to give this podcast a five star review, keep it up to the hosts.

Keep in mind that even the ancillary characters are the heroes of their own stories, even if we don't see them on B five. People like Fester or Naroon have their own motivations and stories, and we only see those when they intersect with the B five plot. They aren't just there to move that plot along, but have their own interests and motivations as well.

Just be glad you don't have the season long waits or the mid-season breaks. Like those of us who watched it in the first run, spoiler alert right after saying, no spoilers, dudes like, spoiler alert. Anyway, each season's opening credits is a spoiler on its own season three big time. But please don't skip it.

Those of us who watched the first broadcast didn't know what it meant until later, but we were wrapped in anticipation due to that

Brent: spoilery tease it, you know, by season three. Jeff. Um, I, uh, thank you, thank you for the review, uh, uh, listener out there and oh my God, binging us that fast. I don't know how fast you did that, but gees awesome.

I, Hey, you know what? I'm glad you're enjoying the show. I really am. Um, but, but we are certainly acquainted with the idea that these, um, uh, opening credits, uh, quote unquote spoil the season. And as I understand it, particularly in season two, the opening credits, I guess, changed throughout the course of the season.

And what we see now is like what they wound up with a little bit towards the end is the way I understand it. Um, I think season three is just season three the way it is. There is a difference between spoiling and, um,

Jeff: teasing.

Brent: Teasing, yeah. Or yeah. Or not even that, but like, setting an expectation and showing

Jeff: how a prolog or Yeah.

Yeah. Prolog or a

Brent: prelude. Yeah. So it's like, like there is a little bit of that. Um, but yeah, Jeff and I certainly for the first couple of episodes in each season tend to skip that intro and then we, we cover it, uh, you know, once the, once the show sort of settles by episode three usually we've noticed, uh, in each season.

So. We'll, we'll take it then, but yeah, appreciate it. It's, it's awesome. I'm glad you're enjoying the show. I really am.

Jeff: Well, Brent, yes, Jeff. We have another five star reveal. Ooh, yes. Also from Apple Podcasts Sci-Fi. Grandma says Aiken and Allen's discovery. Experience. Jeff Aiken. Brent Allen. Openly and honestly reflect, sorry, on their, sorry.

That's our

Brent: t-shirt. That's like our expedition company's name. Like go grab some Jungle Cruise graphics. And the name is Aiken. And Allen's.

Jeff: What was it? Discovery. Discovery. Experience. Discovery. Experience.

Brent: Trek with us Were no, Treky is trekked Before, or actually, most of them actually, I would think. Yeah. I think

Jeff: a lot of them, ma.

Oh God, that'd be good. All right.

Brent: Trek Treking through the Babylon five universe. Ooh, yeah. Trekking through Babylon. Oh, come on now. There it is. Oh, not you put this on the T-shirt list. Not trekking through Babylon. Ooh. Hey, you read this. I'm

Jeff: gonna add that to the t-shirt list. All right, perfect. Jeff Aiken and Brent Allen openly and honestly reflect on their own experience while watching the science fiction series, Babylon Five.

For the first time, I've been saying for years, the Babylon five is the best TV series ever written for a whole host of reasons, and by extension, this podcast by Jeff and Brent is the best sci-fi oriented podcast I have ever heard. So why is that? Well, two reasons. Jeff and Brent's own conversation has evolved in just a couple of seasons.

They may not even be aware of how they've changed as individuals and together as people engaged in a shared experience, but that is what turns good science fiction into great science fiction. We, the viewers are changed in a very fundamental way After experiencing it, we're forced to do a deep dive into the explorations of human behavior, whether it be how we deal with our fears, fear of the unknown of those who are different from us, or how we behave in the face of human suffering.

I encourage anyone that likes science fiction to tune in as Jeff and Brent discover what that means to be part of the human race in times such as this. The second reason is that the podcast production is truly top notch. Well done.

Brent: Well, thank you. I wanna take those backwards. Uh, Jeff and I both come from a background dealing in broadcast and, uh, technical audio stuff.

So we naturally have a little bit of these skills, but also podcasting veterans that we talk about. And it is, it is a shared. Value that Jeff and I have of a production of a certain production quality. So, uh, we appreciate that. And you know what's really nice, Jeff, is when people recognize that, because a lot of times people don't actually recognize it.

And I really appreciate it when they do. Um, because yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, um, podcasts in general. I'm not just talking about other Babylon five podcasts, I'm talking about other podcasts. There are other radio shows. There's people who do this stuff professionally that you're like, why do you sound like that?

We can make that better anyway. Um, but the rest of it, man, that is a, an amazing way to look at all of this. And you know, Jeff, you and I talked about when we first started the show, um, something we know as podcasters is the show grows and evolves, uh, along with usually the subject matter that you're, that you're covering, especially if you're doing an, an old television show.

So yeah, the show doesn't look today like it looked at the very first couple of seasons. That's grown and it will be one of those things I think we have, I'm not gonna discuss it right now, but we've got to, we'll look back and go, okay, well how did Brent and Jeff personally grow through the course of the show?

Like it's there. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's the Star Trek. I mean, I'm using quotes, guys. I'm please, that's the Star Trek, uh, nature

Jeff: of these messages. Yeah. Right. How experience changes all of us.

Brent: Exactly. Exactly. Well Jeff, you know, along with the rule of three, speaking of which, which, I don't know if I should get a buzz for that.

I'm gonna say no. Uh, cuz I don't want one. I agree. Uh, , there is another game that we like to play where at the end of the show we try to guess what next week's episode is going to be about based on title alone. And this is the spot in this show where we look back at last week and try to figure out where we look back at last week for what we said this week was supposed to be about.

And it's time to pay the Piper, Jeff. What did you say interludes and examinations was gonna be about and how

Jeff: close were you? Well, in one respect I was super close. I'm gonna close on that one cuz it's exciting and the rest way off. I thought we were gonna get like, uh, sort of some closure or some advancement on the stuff that we heard at the end of ceremonies of light and dark, kind of, um, seeing how the Talia stuff impacted Ivanova and Marcus and, you know, just people kind of going through their stuff.

But the one thing I did nail was that Dr. Franklin was gonna eventually finally open up to Garabaldi and that absolutely happened in this one. What did you guess this one was gonna be about?

Brent: Well, you, uh, pulled a fast one on me last week because you had a chance to look at this title and think about your answer.

I, on the, I on the other hand heard it in the recording and it took me a long time to get there and eventually where I got to was. With the shadows now openly attacking. It was time for everybody to get their personal issues in order. So kind of a little bit of what you said, Franklin was gonna have to get his addiction under control.

Ivanovo was gonna resolve her feelings for Talia. I think I basically got to like the exact same spot that you did. Um, and uh, I said basically war is here. And then I added on though Jeff, I added on Sheridan was gonna have to call upon the league of non-aligned Worlds to basically get aligned or get out.

Like, and that is, that was the central thread of today's episode. Like everything happened because of Sheridan trying to make that a reality. Oh, and by the way, while we may not have gotten Avan Antalia and we really didn't get much Sheridan and Dylan and Garabaldi is still garabaldi, we 100% picked up on Franklin.

So yeah. Uh, you and I co high fives. We got it.

Jeff: Yeah. There you go. Big Kent. Yeah, high five and white guys. .

Brent: Go to YouTube and see the antics of Brent and Jeff youtube.com/blon five first. Uh, Jeff, tell you what, bud, that's what we said this episode was gonna be about. For those who haven't seen this episode in a while, or maybe they've never seen it at all, and they're just listening to the dulce sounds of our voices here, why don't you remind the folks out there of what this episode

Jeff: actually was about?

Well, Brent, do we wanna start with the sad storyline, the heartbreaking storyline, or the absolutely shocking and devastating storyline in this one? Because what we saw last week, right? Shadows are in the open. It's happening. They're randomly attacking planets and outposts with no rhyme, no reason, but they just might have a plan.

With the upset in staffing and the lack of access to info on Earth, the Bab SA isn't as secure as it used to be. I mean, they don't even make you take the laptop outta your bag anymore. And when that happens, you know that all hell is about to break loose, except like, actually, maybe, maybe it really is going to.

Cuz you see our old buddy, Mr. Morden, he made it through security somehow and is popping around the station. And like always, he's not alone. He's got some shadows with him. And in this episode, we actually get to see those shadows. But for all the death and destruction the shadows are causing, Dr. Franklin is vying for contention too.

He's in a bad, bad way. He's making bad calls and absolutely losing his mind and yelling at his teams after he almost loses a patient. If not, for his amazing team stepping in, Garabaldi starts asking questions. He gets access to the mandatory blood work that medical personnel have to submit, but Franklin beats him to it.

Franklin runs his own blood work and tells Gar Baldy that he has a problem. He then does one of the bravest things we've seen him do to date. He meets with Sheridan and tells him that he is resigning as Chief of Staff to address his STEM addiction. Well, veer ves back to supporting Londo. He's running around the station trying to coordinate a huge party Londo.

Londo is happier than he's been in a long time. He's excited and he wants to celebrate and frankly, given the news he just received. I wanna celebrate too. Aira from Born to the Purple. The slave that he professed his love to is coming back to Babylon. Five as Veer is running around. He runs into morden and doubles down on their last conversation, you know, basically telling him to crawl into a hole and die.

But Morden has other plans. After the next thing happens, which we'll talk about here in a second, we see him bribing some dude and that next thing that happens, like right before that bribing thing, a deer's ship arrived and she was brought out on a gurney in a body bag. She's dead, and Londo Londo is broken.

Morton meets with him, tells him how disappointed he is that Refa is broken up with him. He also very not so subtly, implies that Refa is responsible for ADA's murder. Lonnda agrees to get back into bed with Morden. He does not care about anything anymore. He wants Refa and his crew dead and to hell with the rest of the galaxy.

All right, we've hit sad. We've hit heartbreaking, so let's get to shocking and devastating.

The League of Non-aligned Worlds are tired of getting rocked by the shadows. Sheridan knows they can stand up to them if they can just get on the same page. And to do that, they need a win. So Sheridan hits up Kosh. He wants the Bolon to come out and go, blows up some shadows, and Kosh freaks the frack out.

He tells Sheridan to back down and quit asking for help. Then he flops him around like a rag doll with his mind, but Sheridan does not back down. In fact, he goes so far as says, tell Kosh to go ahead and kill him. Maybe his death will be the one to get the Volans involved, and he's willing to make that bet eventually.

Finally, Kasha agrees, but he reminds Sheridan that when he ends up on Zaha Doom, Sheridan will die. So the Volans attack, and they rip through the shadows with the element of surprise. They cut through them like a hot knife through butter. The League worlds are excited, reinvigorated and are rallying behind the Babylon five cause, but nothing comes for free.

Morden breaks into cautious quarters along with a small gang of shadows. We don't see a lot, but we sure hear. It sounds like there's a serious beat down happening during this. Sheridan has a dream. It's his dad. He tells John that he's been right all along. He also tells him that he wishes he had more time and could have taught him more.

He pumps John up telling him it's time for him to start fighting this war his way, the Sheridan way, but it is time for the inevitable. The thing that he hoped he could avoid, but knew that he couldn't. His last words to John are powerful and cryptic. As long as you are here, I'll always be here. He wakes up knowing that that was Kash communicating with him the next morning, Garabaldi confirms the worst.

He says, Kashi's room looks like it's been through a war. And what was Garabaldi even doing in Kashi's room? Well, Kash Kashas dead like for real, dead with the promise of a new VLAN ambassador being sent to Babylon five soon Kashas ship with his encounter suit and belongings on board flies away to grieve Kashas death and to die its own death as well.

Brent, what were your first reactions to interludes and examinations?

Brent: Jeff, you're 100% right. This was not a happy episode. No, I liked this. I liked this episode a lot. Am I ready to say I loved this episode? It's really hard to say that after, after the, the count of downer it was, but this is the kind of next episode that I look forward to. You know what I mean? Like, like this was what we needed with Londo.

I, I was so hopeful for Londo there, and then everything just got jerked out from underneath me at the end. And the thing is, is I understand, like, I kind of get it at this point. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying I understand. You know what I mean? Um, Franklin's whole deal, oh boy.

We're gonna talk about Franklin and, uh, Kosh. I leave this episode Jeff

with I don't know how many questions have been answer. But I do have several new questions. Yeah. And they're all good questions that I'm excited to get answered and see what happens next. This is the kind of episode, Jeff, that makes me want to press play right away and find out what happens. And that's why I liked this episode so much.

What about you?

Jeff: This episode worked and it totally worked. Like I, I'm so with you where I, I liked this episode. I don't know if I can say I loved it. I didn't really enjoy it. And that's the thing we've talked a lot about in Babylon five, where it's a great episode, but man, this was, this is heavy. I mean, yeah, not, not only is it not happy, but even the one good thing that happened, right, the league world's coming to together mm-hmm.

and you know, they're, now, they're all all on with the Babylon five. Cause what a price to pay for that. And I mean, like, we've got a D V D cover person dead, right? Like, oh yeah,

Brent: gosh. Right, like mid-season. It's wild. This isn't season finale. I mean, Kosh dying is season finale type stuff, and I'm assuming he's dead and he's not just gonna like trounce back in a new encounter suit next week.

Like I, and I don't know, he could, that's a question. Yeah. Is Kosh really dead? How do you kill these guys? You know? But you're, you're absolutely right. Like what in the world? , you know what I call it? It's like the Schindler's List effect, right?

Jeff: Yeah. Where it's just, you understand what I mean? Perf it's perfectly done.

It's uh, it's

Brent: phenomenal film. Mm-hmm. . It is gripping. It is touching. Everyone should watch this movie

Jeff: one time. One time. Yeah. If I never see that again, it'll be too soon. But I'm so glad that I did, and we've had a lot of Babylon five episodes like that right now. I kind of ranked this one in there. Mm-hmm.

But I also think it launches a lot of things that will happen later. I, I'm with you. I, I actually, I'm not with you on Sash. I can't believe he's dead. Like it just seems. It just seems like it's a weird placement. It doesn't line up with so much of what, you know, we've, has been built up maybe. Yeah. Maybe the voice actor, like pissed off j m s so much that we're gonna find out in a couple episodes He was dissected, you know, or something.

But I don't, my guess is that it's one of those things where like, you may strike me down, but I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Right? Like, this is Kosh reaching Jason iron, Earnhardt levels, you know, and their Yeah.

Brent: Right. Yeah. Because that's, that's what we were, that's what we have speculated will happen with the vlan, that all those other first ones that they just sort of ascended mm-hmm.

and that's, you may not know that they went anywhere. They just sort of ascended. Like they're, they're, they're in a whole different situation right now. And for whatever reason the Volans stayed back and so has Kosh gone on it. Maybe Kosh is just floating out because they're like, there's no body. And I'm like, Of course there's nobody, Kosh doesn't have a body.

Kosh exists as energy. That's why he needs an encounter suit. I mean, this dude is, is uh, a fugitive zero. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's not a deep Star Trek reference, but you, well, you better be up on your Star Trek to catch. Yeah, it's pretty new stuff now. Um, but you know, he, he is an energy-based life foreman and in order to interact with him you have to have the suit.

Cuz otherwise you just, you just can't, like, how do you kill that? So that's why I sit back and go, is he really dead now? Kosh may be gone, but is he dead or is he literally just gonna go land in a new encounter suit and he's back like tomorrow? Yeah. Or some

Jeff: super encounter suit. Like has he gone super sane now with this?

Is it like an evolutionary step?

Brent: But, but I'll, but I will tell you this Jeff and, and I will be incredibly disappointed if Kosh comes back in the next episode or two, or three or four. Because it will, it will take all the teeth out of this moment if they do

Jeff: that. And frankly, it takes all the teeth out of the shadows because if it does, they can kill a vlan and that VLAN just comes back then, well, it's gonna suck for a while, but then the lon are gonna sweep through and they're gonna beat the shadows.

Brent: Yeah. Right. So, and they'll be, they'll go sleep for another thousand years

Jeff: and then We'll, and we'll do the cycle again. Exactly. Ultimately, like my biggest thought on this one is just like, what made it work? There was some cool story stuff and things like that were heavy hitting story things, but this worked.

I liked it. Yeah. Because Babylon five is a story about people and characters. Right. And it has really built up these really complex characters that we've connected with. So in that moment when, when Lando is stopping the doc, Dr. Hobbs, you know, like trying to figure out what's happened and he just like drops the flowers and break, like I broke.

With him. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, because it does such a good job with, with creating these, not just stories, but the people attached to the

Brent: stories. Well, you, and you make a really great point there, Jeff, because if you were to just sort of wander in a room when somebody's watching TV and this is the episode that's on and you sit down to watch it, you're not gonna catch this episode.

Mm-hmm. , you're just gonna be like, what is going on? Even with the black and white flashbacks that we got of Aira and is, you know, there was one point where I was like, she's not gonna show up. She's not gonna be here. That's why we're getting the flashbacks to see all of that. Right. But it it, like with Lao to take your, that example that you're, you're going on.

So much of what happened with Lando in his arc in this episode has been, Hey, remember who Lando really is re like, Aira is the person who. Brings the true Lando out, the Lando that we like, that Lando from season one that we're like, dude, he's getting it. Like, yeah, he's been an, he's been an idiot for so long and he's been wrapped up in this crazy culture and he's, he's rising above it and now he's the bad guy of the show.

Right. And she's gonna be the one to bring him out. And I know we have said, given everything that Lando has done, he is absolutely irredeemable. There is no bringing this dude back. There is no redeeming this guy. I know we have said that. However, however,

I believe that this show still has to lead towards the redemption of Lando Malar on some level. Yeah. Like we, it, it's, it's got to get there because, Otherwise, why, why do the show? Well, yeah, I think we, and we're gonna, we're gonna get the redemption of Lando Malar, right? I think

Jeff: it's good. Uh, that's good storytelling.

And also when the, I think about television in the nineties, we didn't tell stories that we didn't tell Breaking bad stories where like, it's just the story of the decline of a person into complete, you know, horrible death. We weren't telling those stories. We were still telling the, Hey, you can get right there, you know, to the point that you're about to get killed in somebody else's meth lab.

But you're gonna, you're gonna have an epiphany and it's all gonna turn around.

Brent: And you wouldn't see that. Like, th I was sitting, there was like, this is the start of the redemption of Lando Malawi. Yet, yet again. I was like, I really thought this was gonna happen. But man, when we got to the end with Londo, Londo went to a darker place than we've ever seen him before.

Like he may, this is full villain turn. Now. Well watch the, I'm gonna watch the Universe burn and everyone edit. Just make sure my people are safe. I don't care

Jeff: anymore. Don't care at all. I think one of the big reasons I think he'll be redeemed is Londo Londo. Malar is a beloved character in the Babylon five community, right?

Sure. Yes. And when I think about other characters that had interesting personalities, and then at different points in the series, you could really connect to, no one out there is gonna tell you that Gold Du Kot is a beloved character, right? Like he had his shining moments. He had mm-hmm. , he had touching Good Guy moments.

Dude was pure, ultimate, irredeemable evil to the very end. But Londo people love Londo, so he'll be re I, I, I do believe he'll be redeemed, but I mean, What's scary about it too is not only does he want his people taken care of, but not all of his people. Right? Like he's, he's segregating those lines.

There's Refa and his people mm-hmm. and like wants like, oh, that's, that's gonna be, that's gonna be something.

Brent: Yeah. So this brings me to one of the big questions. Now, Jeff, earlier in the episode, Mor is on the station and he, he goes and has his little conversation with, with Lando, like, I'm really sorry you left us.

Like, that kind of sucks. Why are you trying to do all this? And then Mor has a conversation with his shadow friends and basically you get the idea that they're saying like, should we just go kill him? And he is like, no, we still need him. Why do they still need Londo? What is it about Londo specifically that they couldn't just replace him with Refa or one of those other people?

Why Londo? What is it about Londo that they're. Uh, basically doing what they're doing to get him back into the

Jeff: fold. It's cuz Mor can play him like a fiddle, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. like from from go, he's like, he's figured him out. And that's why, why he, you know, took the shadows and gave him to Lando is he is like, I can make you do whatever I want you to do.

And just proved it right. Like, he just proved that in this episode we know that Londo is gonna become emperor, right? Mm-hmm. We've been mm-hmm. We've, we've been told, we've been told that it was, it was seen in a vision. What I believe is that they're gonna, shadows are gonna go in and clear out the Refa crew in some way.

Yeah. And Londo is gonna become both a literal and figurative shadow emperor. Like that's Morden's whole thing is we need him cuz we can make him emperor and he'll do anything we need him to do.

Brent: And then his redemption arc is about getting the shadows out of his body or whatever is going on and. He fights again, you know, he rises back because I mean, black and white Londo is the londo we liked.

Yeah. You know, like the, like from the black and white portions of this episode, right? Yeah.

Jeff: But I think also we know that veer is gonna be emperor and we know that that one has to die before the other one. So like I still think, I go back to Lao's, redemption is gonna have to be him choosing to die. And that's, he's gonna realize to cut off the shadows for the centara, he

Brent: has to die.

And, and you can't talk about Londo dying without talking about Jaar because they're supposed to both die with their hands around each other's necks we've been told. Right? Yeah. Choking the life out of each other. Assuming, and

Jeff: maybe it's not that Kar is coming to choke out. Londo Kar is coming to choke out shadow Londo, right?

Where he is just like, I know you're not you, and I'm here to save you. I'm going to save you. And by save you, I mean we're both gonna die. Like, but I'm going to, I'm gonna give you that. It'll be a selfless act by Kar, so the shadows

Brent: take over because, okay, so that even goes back to Morden. Because talking about the shadows themselves, Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, is this the first time that we have clearly definitively seen shadow

Jeff: aliens?

Second time? I think the first time was in the shadow of Zaha Doom, maybe in the second season. Okay. When they showed the, they showed the, um, they showed the scenes on Zaha Doom when the ICARs was there. Yep. And they looked like Harbinger from Mass effect. Mm-hmm. . These didn't look like those. This was a, I thought, you know what

Brent: they remind me of?

Huh? Do you remember the Beetle movie? Beetlejuice? Yep. Yep. Okay. I want to, I want to say it's during the wedding. Where like some of the artwork that Delia's stepmom makes. Yeah. The one that like goes and traps her against the wall. It looks like one of those ,

Jeff: I thought the exact same thing. Oh, I'm so

Brent: glad

Jeff: you got that reference there.

It's like a, it was like a C g I Polygon version of the Claymation that wrapped up Deli's. Mom. Totally uhhuh. Totally.

Brent: But regardless, we saw they were not shimmering, they weren't fading in and out. They were legit right here and Morden's talking and I'm sitting here going, okay, those are the shadows. But Morden's telling him what to do.

What is the deal with Morden? Cuz we know he is a human. That was on the ship. That crashed on Zaha do, right? Mm-hmm. . And either he died and he's a space zombie that is imbued with the, like he's, oh, is that what's gonna happen with Londo? Like he's taken over by a shadow or? Maybe he's survived and he's willingly serving the shadows by leading them, doing that kind of weird deal.

Like do we, do we, we don't know fully yet what Morgan's deal is and exactly how that relationship works. Right. We don't,

Jeff: not missing something. My guess is just that he's like, he's a spokesperson and he is an advisor because the shadows have no idea how humans or cent or nos work.

Brent: Right. Apparently they have no idea of how to plan military conquest.

Cuz Morgan's doing all that for 'em too. I know. You know? Yeah. Like, should we kill him? Should we kill him? Shit. No. No. Guys, chill out. We got it. It's good. Um,

but yeah, Garrett, uh, Jeff, I like it. I like it. Lando is going to be imbued by a shadow and his redemption is him killing it. Killing. Well, how does that work with

Jeff: Kar? Well, I think, I think that Kar Kars gonna be a dying man. Like, you know, he looked like hell in that vision. Yeah, sure he did. So he is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna die, but Londo, I'm gonna give you a gift and I'm gonna take care of this shadow.

Brent: So is Jaar gonna be able to commune somehow with the real lawn? Maybe. Maybe

Jeff: they have some sort of connection because of the dust, right? Like maybe with the Narn telepathic thing, they have some link or something, right.

Brent: That Kar is like, oh my gosh, and Kar, after all of this, Kar and Lando like Kar.

Because Ja, what you're saying then is Jaar killing Lando is more like a mercy killing. Exactly.

Jeff: Right. I think about the end of Alien three when Ripley gets the, the alien inside of her and she's like, oh my God, I'm gonna take it back to Earth. And so instead she drops herself down into the, the fire pit so that she dies so that she doesn't take take it back with her.

It's gonna be the same, but it's gonna be Kar doing that. For Londo

Brent: and then Veer is gonna walk in and discover Rondo's dead body and like steal his crown or something.

Jeff: or what? No, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I've actually thought about that scene, like when Veer finds Londo dead and then they come in and for whatever reason they're like, and your emperor, and he's like, through the whole thing.

He's just gonna be like, no, no. I, I, I want my friend back. Like, I don't wanna be emperor, I just want my friend, you know, and it's gonna be this whole thing, and then he'll end up being the best emperor ever because he didn't wanna be emperor.

Brent: Well, I, I mean, yeah. That's why Rom's the best nagus ever.

Exactly. Um, but, but I mean, but see, here's the thing though. And, and I really wonder because the reason why I say like, veer kind of like comes in and just takes his crown because Veer knows that he's also supposed to be emperor. It's just one's gotta go before the other, right? So if, if Vera sits there and goes, okay, Longo's the, the dude.

I imagine that Veer and Lando kind of, kind of gets some, some guff going between each other. Like, don't you kill me, I'm going to

Jeff: get Lando expelling veer. Right? Like as soon as he ex emper be like, you're go, because that, right. Why wouldn't you just want to kill me? Right.

Brent: But see, I could also see Veer, especially if, if Londo was like shadow Londo, I could see Veer turning against Londo.

Like Veer is leading the rebellion. Like, like, wow. As opposed to what you are saying of, I don't want it, I don't want it, I don't want it. Veer comes to a realization. He needs it. He, for the sake of his people, he has to become the emperor. And the only way that happens is by killing Lando. Oh man, they're getting rid of Lando, you know, and so Veer walks in and just sees Jaar already did the job for him.

He's like, all right, I'll be the king. Kind of a Robert Barian thing. Yeah. Grabs it, .

Jeff: You know what I mean? I'll, yeah. Time will be me.

Brent: Time for Jeff. I gotta tell you what, right now, people out there are either freaking out over everything we've just said, or they're like, would you guys shut up and move on because you're not anywhere close.

I don't know that it's anywhere in between. I

Jeff: almost hope we're nowhere close and they're just getting mad at it. But you know what this is, we are right. There's no way that we're that close. We're writing good TV right now. That's the bottom of whether they did it or not. This is good TV we're

Brent: talking about.

Well, you know, you know what we're doing, Jeff? This is, this is that thing where we're gonna go back in time. We are 30 years in the future. We're reaching, we're sending the vibes, we're sending the energy, the juju back in time. 30 years for for them to, we're influencing j m s writing the show 30 years ago right now.

So you're welcome because time is not linear

Jeff: at all, and I'm not gonna buzz you for that. That's just a physical fact. It'll be your third buzz. I don't wanna take it away. It's early. It's a, yeah. Yeah. It's

Brent: a fact.

You wanna go with Franklin next? Yeah. Or you wanna talk about Sheridan?

Jeff: I see. Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's save Sheridan, let's go to

Brent: Franklin. You save Sheridan for the end, right? Okay. So Franklin, um, I knew, let me ask you this, Jeff, at what point did you know we were getting, Franklin is an addict and it's all coming to a head.

Was there a specific point where you're like, yep, that's what we're doing in this episode?

Jeff: So I, I, I thought we were just gonna get more at, oh, Franklin's an addict at fir. Like, the second we got Med Lab, we're gonna move it forward was when Garabaldi was walking out of the, the bar and Franklin looked at him.

It was like, what are you doing? That's when I knew we were gonna move forward. When, how early did you catch

Brent: it? It, it was while they were in Med Lab and Franklin. The third day, the third date, get up that third date up. 13. I was like, dude, that is like, I thought he was either gonna have a heart attack and pass out or that, like, cuz frankly, or Gu Baldi gave him a look right at that moment.

But, but I was like, yep, that's it right there. He's just exposed himself. Like that's how they wrote it for him to expose himself. And now everyone's gonna know, or Garabaldi is gonna do the like, Hey, I've been an addict too. I understand this. I've recognized this. It's time for an intervention. Mm-hmm And Garabaldi goes full on intervention in him, which is

Jeff: awesome.

Yeah, he was great. I, before I start talking about Franklin, I want to put out there as a caveat Biggs, was it Richard Biggs, who's the actor Amazing. Stood such a fantastic job in portraying all of this. The makeup, the five o'clock shadow, his portrayal. So good. So that said, . Um, I wish the patient in Med Lab had died.

Yeah. Because that would've made it so much heavier. You know what I mean? Like just so much heavier. I don't think he's hit rock bottom and I don't think he's ready to recover. I think we have a lot more fall of Franklin to see. He was What

Brent: do you, I'm sorry. Do you not think he's leaving the show? I don't, no.

Really? He resigned at the end of the episode. You don't think he's

Jeff: leaving the show? I think he's headed down below and he's not gonna be there for a, maybe an e a couple episodes, but then like, he's gonna start causing problems cuz he's gonna take like the next episode. We won't see it, but during the next.

He's gonna go and, you know, try and fix himself cuz he is Dr. Franklin and he's the greatest doctor and scientist of all time. And he can fix this, you know, um, and then it's not gonna work. And he is gonna end down below, you know, doing whatever he has to do to get his hands on some stems and then he is gonna start causing problems and then it's gonna lead to Guerra, Baldi and Zach, the whole security force, like getting involved.

Actually I could see it being a Zack and Franklin thing actually. Marcus, they've done such a great job putting Marcus and Franklin together and Marcus hangs out down below all the time. And I could see Marcus being the one to pull him to Garabaldi to kind of help him out. Garabaldi I think will save him, but I don't think Franklin's done at all.

I think we have more fall of him. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe In fact, in fact like, yeah, I have more buzzes. Good. Okay. His dad would actually say Franklin in down below, eyes closed, ears closed. Franklin all alone. He's gonna go down below it. He's gonna hit rock bottom. It's not gonna be good. And he's gonna take people with him.

Brent: I, I have the feeling he's leaving the show, so I, I get, you know, he's, he's gonna go off to rehab. He is gonna go do something, but I think he, he's gonna leave the show. And

I, I, I wanna save much of my conversation for this for later on Okay. In the show for, for this, because this is one of the key points of the whole episode. But for now, I will simply say what I loved most about this b plot of the episode was how Garabaldi handled. Franklin Garabaldi is a person who has been there before as a person who is in the middle of his own recovery, still taking it one day at a time.

recognizing it in somebody else and doing what is required to help that other person. Because what Garabaldi knows is when Franklin's in his right mind, he doesn't want to be an addict. Right? Mm-hmm. and Alexa, I wanna save, I wanna save the rest of my thoughts, but I, yeah, really loved this episode and in many ways, Jeff, and again, I'll talk about this a little bit more later, but the story of Garabaldi in Franklin juxtapose ca, and I mean like set right up against the Sheridan cost story.

It's the same story in many ways from two different perspectives. Jeff, this is season three's, T. Way better. Way better. Yeah. Yeah. And for those of you who are just joining, those of you who didn't listen to our episode on tko, you're like, what are you talking, Pete? Somebody just crashed their car listening to me say that they, they jumped up and, and put a hole in their roof when you go back and watch tko o for those of you who didn't listen to our episode, go back and listen to that episode that Jeff and I had did on T K O.

Um, what we said was, what made the fight scenes work? Because as goofy as they were, and they were goofy, what made it work, what made that episode so brilliant was how what was happening in the fight was a metaphor for the fight that was happening in a vva during her Shiva scenes. Right? And this is maybe not that one for one parallel as Tko O was, but there's I think, a lot of parallels between how Garabaldi and Franklin are handling each other versus how Sheridan and Kaha handling each other and what they're both trying to.

To get

Jeff: accomplished. I see this one as more of a mirror, right? Like t k o is a direct metaphor. I see this one as more of a mirror o of the two, cuz I think, well, and we'll talk about it more, but Gar, we've, we've had a string of not great garib all the episodes pretty much all season. This was a great garib, all the episode.

He was absolutely was so, so good in this one. Mm-hmm. . And that's the thing too, with the Sheridan and Kosh stuff that happened. Sheridan. Sheridan was great. He was, oh my God, I, I have to believe that there were people, in fact, I know this from conversations on Twitter where there were people who weren't so keen on Bruce Box Leitner back at the top of the second season when he came in and they was like, oh, this guy's kind of a boy scout.

I don't know how I feel about this. You know, based on, you know, kind of the dirtier, grittier version of a, you know, up and comer we had in Sinclair, I guess. Mm-hmm. . But if those, if those people still felt like this after this episode, they're clearly not watching the same show that we are watching, right?

Like, oh my God, this was incredible.

Brent: Well, Jeff, we've, we've turned that corner. Let's talk about Sheridan. Caution. Totally.

So, Sheridan ha he, he realizes that in order to get the League of Non Lion Worlds to align, he's gotta give them a victory. He's gotta show them that there's hope. Hello. He's gotta show them that there's hope. And the only way he can show 'em their hope, they just have to have a victory. Just, just do something.

Let's get the warland involved. It's time. And he goes down and he, he's basically, Hey, Kosh, it's time to do something. Kash goes, no. And Sheridan like snaps. I mean, he turns on a dime and he gets in cautious. Jeff, when Sheridan's getting in caution's face, I don't know that anybody's ever gotten in caution's face before like that.

He didn't know how to respond when that little iris eyeball thing like narrowed in, I was like, oh my gosh. I

Jeff: felt like I, I, yeah, Kas didn't know how to respond. And I felt like when he did respond, it sounded a whole lot like a parent or a teacher talking to a child, right? Mm-hmm. imp. Mm-hmm. disobedient, incorrect.

You're dropping all like, he just didn't know how to respond. And Sheridan Sheridan had what might be the greatest line in all of Babylon five to date, where he is like, yeah, up yours.

That's humans. You know, we are, we are, uh, we are so

Brent: vociferous and so expressive all the way to the very, very end Uhhuh. Uh, I gotta tell you, Sheridan Sheridan says to him at one point, he is like, oh, well is that like a saying among your people? Well, my people have a saying too. Put your money where your mouth is.

Were you kind of disappointed that that was the saying that he went with, especially with the bill of all the sayings you had, that's the one you went with. Like

Jeff: I could almost imagine like the paper, like as, as it as of right now, we have a saying as, oh, nope, nope. Can't do that one. Nope, nope, nope, nope.

And then they got, he got one and then Es Essence Sanders or practices are like, yeah, no you can't. And then he is like, okay, I'll put your money where mouth is. And Bruce is like, I'll do it. I'll

Brent: own it. If Jms was sitting right here, he would turn to me and say, well what should he have said, Mr. Big Shot? I have no idea.

I'm not a writer.

Jeff: I don't know. But it should have been better , right? Right. But it's still, but it was still totally appropriate to the situation. You know, I cuss your hair all the time talking all this big shot stuff. You come outta nowhere and blast death Walker. We have millions if not billions of people getting slaughtered.

And you don't, you're not even showing up on the station anymore, you know? Right. It's, come on, dude.

Brent: Right, right. Um, I I, I do wanna back up. I'm sorry just for a little bit cause I don't wanna get too far into this. Uh, when Sheridan realized he needed to convince the worlds, do you know what I thought he was gonna go do?

Hmm. I think what he wound up doing, going to Kosh was better, but I was like, he's like, yeah, we've just, we've gotta get a victory. And I was just, I was sitting there, I was like, Garrett Baldy just told you how to do it. You guys just had this with veer, with ster. Grab a telepath of any race, put 'em on a ship.

Go find a shadow. Shop a shadow ship, kill the ship. Job done. Like, just go do it yourself. Just, this is all you gotta do. You've had that idea right.

Jeff: Follow up on it. It was what, a week ago, right? Right, sir. Following,

Brent: Hey, we, we just gave you the answer, so go do that. But no, he goes and gets caution. By the way, when the VLAN did go attack the shadows, I don't know what that beam was.

I really want that beam that was coming outta the ship. Not to be like a damaging beam, but more like a a hold you in stasis. Mm-hmm. , because you see, like, you know, that VLAN ship has those, those spikes on the front, those tentacles on the front. He came in and just blasted through the middle of that ship.

You know, like I, I think it was probably supposed to be that the ship blew up and he flew through the debris, but it really looked like, like they just like drilled through the ship with that Lan. It looks so cool. It looked really good. And, uh, oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Uh, but yeah, so Frank, uh, Franklin and Kosh, I'm not sorry.

Sheridan and Kosh. Uh, Kosh says this, he says, it is not our time. It is yours. What is, like, there's a lot of stuff here that Kosh said. What does he mean by that? It's not our time, it's yours.

Jeff: Well, I think he, he backed some of that up in the, the dream later on where he's like, Uhhuh, oh my God, I, I, I was wrong.

You need to fight this your, your way. And I think what it is, is like they had their time to fight the shadows, you know, 10,000 years ago and a thousand years ago with the other, you know, the, the party first ones and the other mm-hmm. , uh, the other, the other, the other, the other first ones that we haven't seen or heard anything about.

They had their time. This is supposed to be, there's, I, I think there's this whole underlying piece with Kosh of. The first ones after the last battles with the shadows left, they either ascended or they left. Mm-hmm. or they went to ground except for some volans. And I think that the ones that stayed awake in active

Brent: and, and don't, don't forget the floating ta tiki

Jeff: head, right?

Yeah. The party, the party first ones that are, that pop in from time to time. But I think they, they stuck around in a way knowing that their purpose is to die. Like they're not there to reestablish their species and civilization or anything like that. They're there to help put the shadows down for good.

And I think that in this exchange with Sheridan, it became very real to Kosh where he is just like, it's not our time, but it is our time. Like it is, I don't want it to be our time, but it is our time. And so I'm gonna, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna mind, I'm gonna mind fla you up against the wall and try and beat you up into submission so that you want, because I don't want to die.

I think that this. I think this really was another, this is the opposite of passing through Gethsemane. Passing through Gethsemane was Brother Edward saying, I want to atone for my sins. I'm gonna stay and wait here, and I know you're gonna come kill me, and I will welcome it when it happens. This is Kosh saying, I know that we have to die to open the door for you to be able to fight the shadows, but I don't wanna die.

I don't want that time to come. And if we just lay low a little longer, you'll be fine. Like you'll be our, I mean, you're only killing some of the worlds, not all of them. And then he kind of realized at the last minute, like, I, I have to, I have to die, but you know what? I'm not gonna die and just die and let it happen.

I'm gonna get a dig in and let you know that now I'm not gonna be there to help you at Zaha dooms, so you're gonna die too sucker like, Like he, he couldn't even let it go until later in the dream.

Brent: Well see when he said that, that's like looking back at that, seeing what happened later when he said, I'm not gonna be there to protect you.

I, like, I didn't, I didn't see that as a dig. I just saw that as a fact. Like, like as a, okay, I can't, I can't go fight these guys cause they will kill us, right? Like, we're afraid they, they're going to come kill us. I can't go fight these, I can't get out there, I can't get in the midst of this yet because I'm needed for later on to protect you.

And if I go now, then I'm not gonna be here to protect you later. And eventually goes, okay, fine. We'll go. I, I think that speech at the end of the, of, of Sheridan's dad, of Kosh being Sheridan's the Jaar speech, right? Like yeah, it's that same, same similar speech. That that said a lot. He said, when you get my age, you kind of forget yourself.

Or how old is Kosh? Yeah. It's gotta be like, you know what I mean? Ancient. Right. Um, and what does this all say about Angels? Again, more questions. They live afraid. They forget themselves, that things have to be this way. He's passing the torch to Sheridan and Jeff, I want to go back to something that we saw.

I want to say it was in the season finale of season two when Sheridan was falling out of that transport thing. Mm-hmm. , right? Very slowly apparently and Delin looks at Kosh and says, you've gotta go save him. And Kosh was like, no. And Deen's like you do, because if you don't, he will die. And then, you know what that means?

It has to be him and only him and Kosh put Sheridan through. The inquisitor situation. Yep. As well. You know, and I know that meant for J for Dylan, but it was for both of them. So what is it about Sheridan specifically, right? What is it about him that he has to be the one to start doing things his way?

That he is the one that say, don't go to Zaha Doom, you will die. We've gotta protect it. Like what is it about Sheridan? Like it only amplifies that to me.

Jeff: You know what it is? What is it? It's Anna. No, it's

Brent: not. It is. She's

Jeff: on Zaha Doom. She might be alive. She might be there. She might be there. But no, I, you, I think a lot of it, I'm glad you brought up the inquisitor cuz I had that same thought of like, he was willing to die to make this attack happen.

Like, Hey, you know, we need you and if, and if me dying. Makes that happen here in a hallway where no one sees it and no one will know, fine, kill me. Like, just make it happen. That was one of the big points of the inquisitor was like to, to give it all away with no honor, no glory, no recognition whatsoever.

And I think that might be the quality that Sheridan has, that they need that willingness to give it all up for, you know, that, that that's not necessarily in another, another leader on the human side, on the earth side, cuz it's Earth and Menari. It's gotta be both. Right? So we have Dalen, who's the one of the Menari side?

Sheridan's the only one in a position to do it on earth

Brent: side. Well, but that's also what you got out of your car. Cuz don't forget what, what, um, Jaka. told Kar. What, what'd he say? Some have to die so that all may live or something like that. Mm-hmm. like, like you've g you've got to be able to sacrifice yourself effectively, uh, in order to save everybody.

Gotta be willing to do that. So it, that certainly is a theme that is, that is, uh, going through when he said this about the Zaha Doom thing, you, you know, Sheridan's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't go to Zaha Dor, I'm gonna die. And then costly sudden goes, now you're gonna die. Now you wouldn't have, but you're gonna die now.

Is it that way? Is that what he meant?

Jeff: I think so. I think so. Right? Like, I'm gonna go do this. I'm gonna die. So does this

Brent: show end with, with Sheridan sacrificing himself like we talked about, Londo dying. Kar dying. Kaha is dead, are Sheridan and Dalen gonna die? The only person left standing at the end is Veer,

Jeff: maybe May Veer and Lanier.

They're the, like our, our sidekicks show ends up being like the victory of. Of the whole series .

Brent: Right? Garabaldi is gone. So it's, it's Lanier, it's veer and we get original. The top.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. We get the good one. The good one. Yeah. I want the good in the top. But I wonder too if, if what the, what's special about Sheridan, right?

And Yeah. And that, that's

Brent: the question, right? Yeah. Like, what is so special about him? Go ahead. When I'm

Jeff: looking at my, at my recap on here, and Kosh said that really weird thing to him where he said, as long as you are here, I'll always be here. So we had Sinclair who had the Inbar soul, and we're like, oh, of course Sheridan's got a inbar soul.

That's what, if he doesn't, what if he has a bolon in him? Wow. Oh, that's cool. Like, you know, I mean, yeah. Because like you, I, I'm still with, or is that some. Or is that a remnant of like the VLAN religious stuff they've left on earth? You know that I am, you know when, when you look upon another human, you look upon me, you know, sort of a thing

Brent: or I don't know.

What if humanity, Jeff, what if humanity is the evolution of the vlan? Oh wow. You know what I

Jeff: mean? And that's why they were so involved in our religious development cuz they're kind of, we're gonna help keep you on the right evolutionary path. There you go. That culminates in John Sheridan.

Brent: Jeff, I got one more thing. I just, I, well, two more things I want to talk about in dealing with this. Uh, I'm sorry. Three. Okay. One, the shadows deal in diamonds

Jeff: apparently that were crack, like those were crack rocks or diamonds, I dunno. , the

Brent: opening monologue by ano a Nona a vva. The opening, the opening monologue by her.

Setting the stage. It was very reminiscent of the beginning of season two, the

Jeff: end of

Brent: season two, the end of season two. But there was also the beginning of season two, right? Yeah. Where she was walking through. She's like eight days since, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's doing all that. Um, but I, I thought this was a real interesting, she's like, we've had to, we've had to go hire some new security personnel and we don't have the ability to vet everybody.

And like there's, I thought that was a real interesting, like, we've gotta bring these people in because we need warm bodies to do this job. From an administration and a leadership standpoint, we know some people are gonna be bad and we'll just have to deal with that as we find them. Right. Like that was an interesting, like, way of doing that.

I feel that, uh, Disney has taken this approach. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you know this about me, Jeff, but for four years, when I was starting, when I was 17 years old, I used to work at the Walt Disney World Company. Yep, I

Jeff: know that. Yeah. Worked at Walt Disney World. Got some good

Brent: stories. Um, I have amazing stories from a long time.

There's a lot of stuff that happens there. Anyway, I eventually got to a spot where I started training other people, and then I started teaching classes and I eventually started teaching a class called Traditions, which is, uh, something that everybody on, on the entire property is made to go through. It's a two day class and teaches you all about the history and philosophy of Walt Disney, the company Walt Disney, the, the, the, the man and how we as cast members behave and act like I'm, I taught this stuff right.

I go to Disney today and I go a lot. It is not the same standards that we people leaning against walls. We taught, we taught you how to lean against walls to where you didn't even look like you were leaning against a wall. You know what I mean? Like ways that you point, ways that you act ideas of, of what we call good stage or good show and bad show ons.

Like just all this idea of what it is to just present this, this mystical fantasy and, and grooming standards and just clothing standards and things like that. And people just don't have, I was having a conversation with a guy who worked there when I was there. Mm-hmm. Okay. And I was like, Hey, I remember you.

And he remembered me and we're like, I was like, so what's, we're just talking about all the, where were those two old guys on the porch who in my day

Jeff: they

Brent: weren't allowed to wear these kind of

Jeff: sunglasses?

Brent: What's, that's what's going on with these young whipper snipers. It's a rock and roll music. Right, right.

But he also was like, we can't get people to come work. And so they're just kind of hiring anybody. They had to relax a lot of those standards just to get people in, you know? Anyway. I say all of that to say I feel that of what's happening on the ship and oh my gosh, are people di out each other Yeah. To Morton for a bunch of diamonds, which I don't know how many diamonds it would take for me to dime you out there, Jeff.

Jeff: That's a big handful of them. I mean, I, but I know how many he's gonna use. Right. It, I wouldn't, no. Wouldn't be the first word outta my mouth. I mean Right. I'd be like, how? But I get it too, cuz like, I, I, when I was working in pro wrestling, I was back and forth, uh, the Canadian border, you know, a couple times a year and they do a, they do a criminal history check on you to get across the, the border when the system goes down as it does mm-hmm.

it's a computer system. They don't just be like, oh, go ahead. It's probably okay. They, they close the border like you don't go, cause it's usually down for like a couple hours, you know? Right. So it's an incon. They're actively trying to open Babylon five for business, so they can't close the border. So they're having to figure out ways to do it without the system.

I get it. Totally makes sense. But, but man, like if Morden can do this, I mean, Morden not only had crack rocks or diamonds or whatever they were, but I mean, dude just has so much charisma on top of it. Like when he went and talked to the shop, keep guy, like of course he is gonna tell him everything that guy's cool as ice, right?

He's great, but who else is getting through? What else is getting through? That was kind of one of the big questions I had. The big thing we saw is Morden, but we know drugs are a thing, you know, we know night watch is a thing. So, and they can be bought off easily.

Brent: Yeah. You know, uh, the, the other thing, and I, I can't get outta here without talking about it.

Uh, veer Morden approaching Veer and, and Morden's like, Hey, is there anything I can do? And Veer just goes short of dying. Nope. Not really. He is like the best. Oh my gosh. I love beer.

Jeff: He was great. I'm here to get clothes and things. , what do you think was on

Brent: that list? Man, that's, uh,

Jeff: I I he's a family friendly podcast.

Yeah. I am not twisted enough to, uh, even begin imagining what Londo had on there.

Brent: Gars, you can't go wrong with

Jeff: Gars. Well, maybe you can, but, uh,

Brent: last question, Jeff. Okay. The big question, I, this isn't a big que this is the last question I had leaving the show. What is Kashas ship? What's its last duty? It said the ship is gonna go way to performances last duty with all his stuff inside. What is that ship? What,

Jeff: what's it doing? I think it's flying into the sun.

I think it's going to.

Brent: You don't think it's like go bury itself in Zha doom and blow something up and be like the, the, and I'm sorry to keep bringing these references up. The, the Ford Anglia from Harry Potter that just comes out of nowhere to save the day.

Jeff: May maybe, maybe there's like a Vlan Zaha Doom planet or something, and he is just like, yeah, go plant it here.

It'll regrow, , plant it, water it, you know, make sure

Brent: it's close to the sun. I, I'm just saying, we get to the end, we're in the big fight and, you know, things aren't looking good. Then all of a sudden, cautious ship just shows up out of nowhere full on Kamikazi mode into, into one of the, the shadow dudes or into Morton's face.

Yeah. Straight to, he's there to get Mor. He's, oh, you know what he is. You know what he is? It's Kasha ship shows up and he does the thing that, um, cousin Eddie. What, what was the actor? Oh, uh, Christmas vacation.

Jeff: Quaid Quaid Dennis. Yeah. No, Dennis, Randy

Brent: Craig, Randy Quaid. Randy Quad from Independence Day when he's just flying himself.

It that, it's that guy.

Jeff: It's that guy. Oh man. Well, Bre, I think we've reached that part of the show where we boil this out, buddy. Don't, yeah, no. We've been in it for a little bit, but this time we're gonna to see if this has that sci-fi star treky quality to it. D moral message, holding a mirror up to society, whatever.

I'm gonna do that by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five Deltas. And Brent, you are gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five star theories as to just how much we enjoyed the episode and how Babylon five this one was. I'll go first with Deltas. The theme to me, through a lot of this episode, we, and we haven't really touched on this in our, in our discussion, which makes me feel good.

Like I can add value in this piece too, but it's the danger and the damage of arrogance and hubris. So we get. Solid, solid examples of this, right? In the early part of the episode, Sheridan, like the brachii are in their, like, he's got the Brachii asking for help, and he is got some other race, and he is like, Hey, come on, you should help him out.

I'm like, no, we're not gonna help out. Like, they're not getting us. So we have, she's, and then he gives them a hard time. He gives the uria a hard time. Like, dude, how, how could you ally with these guys? They're clearly dirt bags. And he said, we thought that they recognized our value over others. Like really?

I mean, look around, dude. You're just another race in the league of non-aligned worlds. Like you're mm-hmm. old body. But your hubris made you think, oh, we must be better than this. Right? Next we get Franklin and his hubris that he could get high as a kite and solve all the problems without consequences.

You know, I, I said it in our, in our discussion, but I still really wish. That that patient has died because at this point now his addiction is mathematical, right? It's a logical conclusion. Oh, the amount of stems in my blood are an amount that are clearly, uh, you know, someone with a problem. Even as he's admitting that he needs to step down and take care of this, he's still fully convinced that it's just a problem that he can solve.

Like I have it. And finally, there's Kosh and his hubris. That might honestly be why the galaxy in the universe is where it is right now. He wanted to be mysterious. He wanted to be wise. He wanted to play games. He wanted to bite his time while millions and maybe billions of people died, he relied on people like Dalen and Sheridan to cover for him.

And then he slow played Sheridan and didn't share and teach him all the stuff that he needed to, I think, I think he knew he had to die. And until she enforced it, he was ultimately avoiding his Gethsemane. Right? But you take the hubris outta the equation, you deflate the egos, you get rid of the arrogance.

The league worlds aren't allying with the shadows at all, right? Like cuz they don't think they're hot stuff that the shadows are after Franklin isn't spiraling in his addiction. He can ask for help and accept it from people like Garabaldi and go back and actually be the good doctor that we've seen time and time again that he's capable of being And Kosh caution.

The VO would be a full participant against the shadows, maybe setting this whole attack time table a lot by a long ways. But no, instead everybody thinks there's something special. They're unique, they're the different one. There's a, you know what I have to bring to the table so much better than everybody else.

It is sheer hubris. This is an incredible message. Very much in a painful way, holds up a mirror to society and personally to so very many of us. And frankly, it is delivered in a way that only Babylon five can deliver a message like this. I'm gonna give this one four deltas. What about you?

Brent: One, I almost interrupted you for the sheer blinking hubris line, and I'm so glad I didn't.

Like I almo. I almost did. All right. Uh, Jeff, I'm not gonna bury the lead. I am giving this one zero star. Furries. What? Zero. Okay. I'm not giving any star furries tonight. None. But I am gonna do something that we've only done once, and this was back in season two, somewhere, I don't even remember where. Um, Back then, though it was kind of offhanded tonight.

Jeff, if you'll play with, if, if you'll just roll with me on this one. Okay. Yeah. All right. Uh, I'm, I'm gonna do this one on purpose. You just said it a second ago. And the further we get into this, the more and more we keep saying something here, Jeff, the more and more we say that these Star Trek messages are being done in a Babylon five way.

Yeah. Right? Like we're a lot of them, we're seeing this more and more in this episode. Uh, to tack onto everything you said, we have Gu Baldi, which I said that to me. The, the whole big thing about that, about that was Gu Baldi and what he did. He's standing up to a friend for his friend's benefit. He is more concerned about the welfare of another than he is about his own friendship with him.

He is such a good friend to Franklin. He is willing to sacrifice that friendship to help dig Franklin out of a thing that he doesn't even realize he's stuck in the middle of, that's a friend. Yeah. The most striking part of the whole storyline to me though, is when Gar Baldy is trying to take a look at the blood records, and he stops himself and Franklin walks in, he's like, why'd you do it?

And Garabaldi is like, and, and he is like, well, what do you mean? Why did I try to do this? Or why did I stop myself? And he's like, why did you stop yourself? And Garabaldi is like, because I figured you'd have to come to it eventually. In other words, he respected him as a person to not do that. That's that's the way how much Garabaldi thought of him.

Right. And it was because of Aldi's pressure. That he put on his friend that eventually made Franklin come to a spot where he, he understood in a way that Franklin understands you. You said it with a little bit of derision. I'm gonna say it from the other side. We know how Franklin is so black and white.

He's so whatever. To have it mathematically on paper in front of him is what made him go, oh crap, this is a thing. Yeah. Because if it wasn't mathematic on a paper in front of him, he'd write it off. He didn't boil it down and say, oh, it's just a math problem. No, no. It's like, oh, I can't argue with that. He, we heard all the way back in that a curd episode, believers, I'm a out of socks.

That's true. Right. Gets him to the point where he resigns his post as Chief medical officer at entirely the wrong time, but there's no way he can stay in in that role. Is he leaving the show? Maybe is he not? I don't know. Uh, we'll see. But the way Garabaldi handled his friend, it was firm. It was tough. It was sacrificial for the sake of helping his friend.

And he got through, I said earlier that to me, this juxtaposes, what happened was Kosh and Sheridan. Mm-hmm. . In this episode, we also get Kosh, who in the end is admitting his own mistake. Kosh is the Franklin character. Sheridan is the Garabaldi character. Kosh is the big protector of the universe.

Eventually, he admits that he's old, he's stuck in his ways, he's acting out of fear that he's the only one who can save the universe. Does that sound familiar? Right. He tells Sheridan eventually that it's time for him to start doing this his own way and that he's gotta get out of the way. In order for Sheridan to, to do what he's gotta do, Franklin's gotta get out of the way in order to go find his healing.

Kosh has been a governor on Sheridan, and, and if you don't understand what I mean by that, you know, you can put a, a thing called a governor on an engine that will prevent your car from going over a certain speed limit. It will, it will stop you. You can't go further than that. Kaha has been that he's been honestly holding Sheridan down and by removing himself out of the way in the way that he did Sheridan doesn't have that, that governor on him anymore, but it took Sheridan getting in caution's face the way Guerra Baldy got in Franklin's face, right, to get him to see, to get, uh, Kash, to see where he needed to own this and what he needed to do.

To go in and in the way that Kosh sacrificed himself as Franklin has now sacrificed himself. Right? Yeah. Uh, by, by resigning. Again, I don't think this is a perfect mirror the way that tko o was between the, the fight and the, the ivanova stuff, but I do think it's there. Did the producers intend for these two, for these two plots to mirror each other?

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I'd love to ask j m s that one day, like, did this, was this just, am I just overly analyzing this and reading into it? Or is this actually what you meant? I would, I would really like to know.

Both people prioritized their friend over their friendship. They were willing to break the friendship, to get the friend to do what they needed to do. Sheridan, to get Kosh to do what he needed to do. Garibaldi to get Franklin to do what he needed to do. These are things Jeff, combined with everything you so eloquently said, way better than I just said this.

These are things that we obviously would see in a Star Trek episode, but not in any way that Star Trek is gonna do it in a way that only Babylon five is gonna do it. Yeah. So I'm not giving Star furries out today to talk about how Babylon five this episode was. I'm smashing them together and I'm giving this episode for Delta Furies.

Jeff: I love it. Delta Furies, four of them.

I love it. Cause you're so right, like there's so much in this episode that we could drop in Star Trek or even a Battlestar Galactica or a lot of other sci-fi out there. That'd be great. But none of them are, are gonna do it the way that the Babylon five has done. I love that. The Delta fur.

Brent: Or do it as well as Babylon five did it in this way.

Yeah. They would have their own way of doing it. That is, that is unique to them. This is Babylon five just being, honestly being unique. They're serving up the messages they're just doing

Jeff: in their own way. And, and it's almost what was in one of the reviews at the top of this episode where it's like, you know, the reviewer said that this is one of the greatest episodes of sci-fi or no episode.

This is the greatest sci-fi series of all time. Because it's able to do that. It's able to kinda live in both worlds, you know, of, hey, here's messages also, you're gonna feel super dirty, uh, for getting them, but not in a way that you don't like. You're gonna come back for more. That'd be keep gummed back time and time again.

Well, Brent, like last season, we are creating the definitive unarguable, objectively correct ranking of all the episodes here now in this season, season three. Our current rankings. The top five has number one at severed dreams, then point of no return, ship of tears, messages from Earth, and then passing through Gethsemane.

Where Brent, do you rank interludes and examinations?

Brent: Jeff, I think this was an important episode. This is an episode that, like we both said, at the top of the hour, I don't think we wanna revisit this episode too terribly often. However, it was a good episode.

I am gonna place this as our new number five. Wow. This one goes above passing Gmy. I liked passing ge, passing through Gmy. I think by its nature that one has to tick down a lot more. And this one is more important. This one does more than what Passing through cinema. And it should at this point in the season.

So, uh, does it, does it crack that messages from Earthship of tears level? Not quite for me, but it is enough to pass to, to crack passing through Gete at the new number five. Passing

Jeff: through Gsem is an episode we've referenced quite a bit since it came on, you know, introduced a lot of the themes of season three around forgiveness and redemption.

But I think that this episode specifically is the payoff to passing through Gase. Just, just because of caution, the volans and, and what happened.

Brent: And you know what, as we've been referencing, passing through Gase so much, the re through for this season, interludes and examinations, I think is gonna take over the sh the episode that we reference a

Jeff: lot.

I agree. I agree cuz it just, it takes those pieces and just amps them, amps them. Way up. Way up. Well that's it for interludes and Examinations. Next week we are watching Walk about for the next time now. Some people out there are gonna be like, what do you mean walkabout? Aren't you starting this, uh, you know, this other war without end series?

There's contr, there's a, there's different versions of the viewing order. We have been crystal clear that a good friend of ours, John gave us a viewing order we're sticking to that he has walkabout before the next, uh, two-parter. We're going to watch that one next. And we play a game with the names of episodes.

A game that you referenced at the beginning of this one, Brent, where we guess what it's gonna be about based on the title alone. So wet, so Brent. So, wow. That was something that was good. It's not later. Anything. We're fine. So, Brent, what do you think Walkabout is gonna be about?

Brent: We going to go out there with the shrimp on the Bobby and we going for a walkabout out in the Outback.

Um, this is some Crocodile Dundee east stuff You're talking about a walkabout. Um, you called that

Jeff: a knife.

Brent: This is a knife. Knife. This is a knife. Uh, yeah. Here's the thing. I think that that is exactly what this episode is gonna be about. I hope that's what this episode is gonna be about. Paul Hogan's gonna be the guest

Jeff: of the

Brent: week.

Hey, I would not be, I would not be mad, but I think this is a literal walkabout. And Jeff, here we go. I suspect it's Dr. Franklin. Okay. I suspect it's Franklin on a walkabout. And this is the episode where he, he gets his addiction under control. I think this is kind of a, a, a, you talk about those palate cleanser type episodes.

Coming off of this episode, I think we need something before we go into whatever's to come, you know? Uh, so, so this will be dealing with Franklin on a walk about getting his addiction under control. Something's gonna happen to him while he is out there, probably wandering him on Babylon five. I don't think we're gonna see him on a ship hopping around the universe.

It's a town of 250,000 people. Like there's some places he can go, right? Yeah. Um, but I'm gonna make a, a different kind of prediction though, okay? I am predicting that it is from this episode forward, not the one today, but the one for next week walk about where you and I begin to like Dr. Franklin. It's a tall, that's a tall as I, I think this might be the episode, but this is, this is all Dr.

Franklin and whatever the B plots are that's gonna distract us from Dr. Franklin, but. I think we're gonna start liking him after this one. And I think this is him on his little spiritual walkabout, uh, coming face to face with himself and getting it sorted out. We'll see. What do you think? I'll tell you what

Jeff: I hope this episode is right.

So

Brent: not Dr. Franklin on a literal walkabout. .

Jeff: Oh, dwan it. So here's what I want it to be. I want, yeah, I wanna see some hardcore Lean Six Sigma style leadership from John Sheridan and Crew. There's this awesome tool that we use in, in process improvement and in leadership called a gemba walk. So in Japanese, gemba means the place, so like a reporter will often be reporting from the giba or the place where things have happened.

I've talked in a couple of episodes about the disconnect between Sheridan and kind of the people up in C N C and then reality, like when we had the. The riots start back in, I think it was in point of no return and stuff while he's reading the Marshall Law thing and it's just like you don't even understand what's going on.

I want him doing gemba walks. I want him going down, walking through down below, walking through brown sector, walking through these places and just like actually observing and seeing what's going on in the station. I don't think that's what's gonna happen. That's just me as a leadership guy.

Brent: Look Jeff, so often we find these titles that have absolutely no nothing to do with the episode.

Yeah. Occasionally you get one that is so blatant, smacky in the face. Lando released one of his six appendages and it's it, it just pop. I mean, it's right there. Tko O, I talked about it earlier in today's episode, tko, when, I remember when we predicted tko O was like, that's got to be somebody boxing. It's got to be fighting.

It can't be anything else. You cannot. Call an episode walkabout and not have it be some Australian walkabout. Like you just, you can't

Jeff: do it. Well, I'll tell you what I actually think this is. So here's my for real's prediction. Uhhuh , we're gonna get the new Lon Ambassador. They're gonna show up, but they're not gonna show up alone.

They're gonna show up with a pissed off furious Lida Alexander. Oh, I forgot about her. Last time we saw her, she was energy sucking with vor, with, uh, with Kosh. And now gosh, is dead under Sheridan's watch. That was

Brent: her dude, man. Uhhuh like, yeah, I know she if there're an item or not, but she's

Jeff: gonna come like with the new ambassador, like as kind of a intro person or whatever, but she's gonna have an ax to grind.

But while she's looking to act ax that grind while she's looking, while she's looking to grind that ax, she's gonna be introducing the new VO around on a walk about. The station with them, and then we'll kind of get the story build up as she goes to see Londo and then goes over to see Len and then goes to rip into Sheridan for letting Kosh get killed.

We'll see. We'll, we'll see. We're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to us or watching. And please stop by Apple Podcast or Pod Chase or good pods or anywhere like that. Leave us a rating or review. I'll read it here on the podcast.

So, until next time. Hey Jeff. Yeah. Um, actually I need to be, it's kind of late, Brent. I don't really have time for this. Is it cool if we just, if we just call it,

Brent: uh, is there anything I can do to help you, um,

Jeff: short of dying? Can't think of a thing. Wow.

Brent: Peace Victory and Long Life folks.