Feb. 27, 2023


Londo does the Murago, and someone dies!

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Captain Sheridan learns about Babylon 4. Jeff and Brent wonder if this starts the redemption of Londo.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5first


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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time. Not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am here to challenge you to a life or death. Dual you, Jeff, not the listeners out there.

Jeff: Wow. This escalated quickly. right outta the gate.

Well, if we got, Okay, fine. We gotta. Let me find my little fancy knife and we can, let's

Brent: get our little, little sting blades out here. Uh, no. I am Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babbel on five four. The very first time Jeff and I two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching a not Star Trek show. We are applying that filter that we have gained as Star Trek podcasters.

We're applying that lens, that skill where we look for the deep moral messages, the mirror to society, the hope for a better future. And we're going, Does Babylon five have any of that? And how much did Star Trek rip out of Babylon? Five. That might put, put that in there anyway. And we're also gonna talk about how much we like the.

Jeff: While this is not a podcast about Star Trek, it is actually a podcast about mass effect. We learned last week and in the interim time, the uh, Casey Hudson, who just a little wrapping this all around Casey Hudson, who produced Mass Effect directly credited Babylon five with a lot of his inspiration, but he said a cool thing.

He said, Yeah, we ripped off Baby on five and we also ripped off this, and we ripped off this, and we ripped off this just like Babylon five ripped off this and ripped off this. And. Everybody rips off everybody, so you just enjoy everyone's take on it. But we're not gonna rip off from Star Trek in this one much, right?

So we each get three references to Star Trek. It's the rule of three. Once we make 'em, we're done. So all we get is three. That's it. Three.

Brent: One of those three. No substitutions. Exchanges a refund. Now, brother, but you know what? We do have, Jeff, what do we have? We have unlimited amount of references to everything

Jeff: else out there.

I know. And we dive right into those a lot. . Well, Brent, this is the part of the show where normally I read messages that we've gotten from listeners or viewers or share some reviews, but I thought that since we're kind of nearing the end of season two, we might do something a little bit different today.

And I wanna recognize some of the people who work behind the. On Babylon five for the first time. Cool. So people don't know this, uh, necessarily, but we, we actually have people who help us out, and there's two that I want to just take us like the time that we would to share the things for us to recognize them.

So I era helps a lot of, you've watched any of our video clips stuff on my Instagram, on the, the Twitter or the little newsfeed thing in YouTube that even though we use, I still don't, I still don't understand. But she does. But Aira does some really great work, does some graphic support for us and stuff.

So yeah, just wanted to say thank you to Aira IRA's. Awesome. Yeah, she

Brent: also super cool Jeff. Jeff told me about I era when we first started, uh, doing this and I was like, That sounds fun. And then I've. Become a beneficiary of IRA's work. And I am, I am super grateful

Jeff: for her. She's awesome. She has great, If you follow any of my Star Fleet Leadership Academy and stuff, 90% of what you see is her work.

Like she is. Mm-hmm. , she's fantastic. And it was, it was really validating a while ago. She reached out, um, she didn't have a lot of extra work to do and she says, Hey, do you have any extra Babylon five stuff? I really like working on that show , which is cool, but I'm also like, Don't, don't you like working on my other show?

Brent: Ira, when you hear this part, the answer is just say no. Just, just rip the bandaid off and no,

Jeff: just give it to me. But also, so, you know, we, we've kind of made the the choice to not, you know, sit here and talk about, I'm just gonna say the link down below that supports this show. Well, one of the things, if you follow that link down below, we've got a discord.

And in that, Discord is a really cool section. The red sector where Brent and I are not. We don't get to go there and you can talk about whatever you want. Well, Mia, Mia has stepped forward to moderate that for us and oh my god. Mm-hmm. has done such incredible work just setting everything up, helping onboard people.

Brent: I was gonna say Mia did a lot more than, than moderate. Mia freaking set the thing up. She is a

Jeff: rockstar. Big time. Big time. And I mean, it's, Yeah, so. You know, I love when our listeners and our viewers interact with us and share things, but also like the people who are working to help this show be great for all of you.

So Aira Nia, thank you. Thank you. This is for you right here. Oh yes. You get a five star review

Brent: and I'll give you this. Hello?

Jeff: I don't think that's a nice thing to do, . It's fun though. It's funny. It is. Hello?

Brent: It's better than this. There's that. Yeah. Yes. Yikes. You know, everybody listening to the podcast right now are like, What are they doing at all?

Go go to our YouTube channel and uh, check it out. It's about the 11 minute mark on our YouTube video and subscribe while you're over there.

Jeff: Absolutely.

You know, Jeff, we need transition bumpers, don't we? Like that's what you're telling me, ? No,

Brent: that, because it's actually in our notes, like where we copy the, the, the, the template. It's actually still like play this, like where I put it in as a joke a couple weeks ago. It keeps getting copied from week to week.

So when I see it, I'm like, Oh yeah, let's say it.

Jeff: You're like, I'm just following directions. , .

Brent: All right. Hey Jeff. You know what, uh, we like to play our games here at Babylon five for the very first time, and along with the rule of three, the other game we like to play is when we get to the end of the show and we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be based on title alone, not having seen anything or knowing anything about what's happening.

And this is the spot where we have like part two of that game where it's time to pay the piper and take a look back last week to see what we thought this week was gonna be about and how close were we. What did you say knives was gonna be about?

Jeff: I thought, oh my gosh. When this episode started, I was just like, I nailed this.

And then it changed. I thought that there was gonna be an assassination attempt on lawn and that Jaar was gonna have to come in and kind of smooth everything over. And so when Iza came in and like grabbed him in the reverse, naked, naked, you're gonna join. I was like, Oh no. It's just an old buddy. Yeah.

What about you, Brent? What

Brent: did you think? Uh, well, I think. I was joking and referring to the plot line of a movie that also uses the word knives, but I basically said murder mystery. And so I thought I nailed it as well. When Sheridan goes down into like the, the Bermuda Triangle of Babylon five, and he finds the dead body, and I'm like, Yes.

And then he gets hit with the hand and I'm like, Oh, now it's something different now. But I did get something that I really want. We'll talk about that later. Okay. Something I've been begging for for episodes now, and, uh, we'll talk about that. But Jeff, while you and I discussed what we got right, what we didn't get right, before we get into all of those other things, why don't you take a moment, Let's remind the folks out there listening exactly what happened for reals in this episode, Kni.

Jeff: Baseball. Yep. The station has an incredible looking baseball field with an incredible view of the entire citadel. I mean, the, the station reaching out all the way from home plate Sheridan has a pretty mean swing. And did we know that Garabaldi was a lefty? Nope. Either way, Gar Garabaldi talks about some weird readings from.

Triangle and Sheridan channels his inner Sinclair again and decides to investigate alone. Shockingly, things don't go awesome as a marab co, as a mark hub. How do you even say that? Mark? Ha. Mark. I didn't catch it. Mark ha Corps corpse with bad gas spasms. Oh my God, I cannot .

Brent: I'm talking about gas spasms.


Jeff: Well, it's not a guess. Oh, wow. This is YouTube. This is, This is all for you, . All right. Can you try that again? Yep. . Either way. Garabaldi talks about some weird readings from the triangle and Sheridan channels his inner Sinclair again, and decides to investigate alone. Shockingly, things don't go awesome as a markup corpse with bad gas spasms and grabs Sheridan's face.

Yikes. While Sheridan deals with blurred vision, headaches, and weird visions, lawn greets an old friend Zaja, they grew up together and their houses have been aligned since the earliest days of the republic. He's not here just to visit though. Nope. He needs a favor. Lord Rfa and the crew that took power after the emperor died are taking rival houses out by declaring them traitors to the re.

This is gonna happen to house Chatto and Iza wants lawn, the rising star from house molar to vouch for.

He agrees. I mean, they're old friends, right? But RFA freaks out, basically threatens to cut malar outta their big plans if he supports ia. This all comes to a head at a banquet that Iza arranged, furious that Landa would ask RFA for assistance and even more furious that lawn is putting his supposed destiny over their friendship.

He challenges lawn to the Morag. A dual to the death lawn accepts and we get another round of old man fighting. Last time it was Jaar and some Narn. This time it's too old Sonari with cool knives called Qatari. I suppose that calling the episode Qatari might have been a little confusing for people, so we get knives.

Well, despite all the odds, Lando wins and Rza dies in his arms. Reflecting on i's Visit Lawn appreciates his genius. While Mourns friend, all he wanted was to protect his house and his family. The rules of the Morag are clear. Landa won, so House Shadow is now a part of House Malar. They will not be declared traders and Iza will be remembered with honor.

Sheridan is in a bad way. Franklin orders him to rest for a few days, takes him off duty to relax. He hits the diamond again. Garabaldi joins him and shares that the markup had that died had passed through Sector 14 before coming to Babylon. Five. Well me, I can't think of any better place than home plate to share incredibly confidential state secrets and neither can Garabaldi.

He tells Sheridan about Babylon four and gives him a copy of the Babylon squared episode. If you'll recall, sector 14 is where all that stuff went down. Well, Sheridan figures out that this life. I'm topnotch today. Well, Sheridan figures out that this life form that inhabited him from the gassy Marab just wants to go home, or at least that's what he's gonna bet on.

He hops in his star fury and he is off Garabaldi chases after him, and he sees that he was right. The life form thing, he sucks out of his head and into a tack eon portal. It opened up. Sheridan passes. Garabaldi grapples him in their back to Babylon five. Safe and ready to fight another day. Brent, what did you think of knives?

Brent: I think I'm gonna like this episode way better than it probably actually deserves, just because I fully believe this is where we finally. Officially kick off the redemption of lawn

Jeff: malar. Yep,

Brent: absolutely. That is, and, and I am going to hold this episode in high regard because of that fact alone. Now let's couple that with our guest star in this episode.

Carmen a Gen Zaz Azia, I think is how you say his name. I don't know if you know who he is. Mm. He plays Jacob and Stargate SG one. Okay. And I'm not gonna say anymore cuz you're gonna eventually find out what that is. Fantastic character, fantastic actor. You talk about actors that elevate an episode because they're in it, and I think Carmen absolutely did that.

I bought. Every single bit of his relationship with Lawn. I could see these two guys as kids playing together. I could see them coming up through school together. I could see them joining whatever fight club thing that they were a part of, and having some secrets. Uh, NA code names for each other. They probably have shared tattoos on their bodies somewhere.

Don't ask where, because that's a frat boy thing. You know, like these guys. Are bros. And I bought every single second of it. And, um, the fact that he comes down to it and this really was just a way to take care of his family. Like that's pretty solid. And Lando gets it, uh, like that scene where they're fighting.

They're fighting, they're fighting lawn stabs. His, I mean, in, in the most cliche way. I'm gonna stand over you and Ray, you know, and he's gonna stab you in the gut real quick. Like, uh, and then he falls into his arms and there's absolutely no bad blood. There's no fierceness, there's no, I, you know, it's just a, Why'd you make me do this?

You know? And the friendship was still intact. And still there it was. It was. So good. And, and you know, they, they have their parting words with each other. Oh, it, it was so good. The whole thing about Sheridan, and I may be jumping the gun on this, but in the end where I really came back to it, cuz that that whole thing is probably gonna be one of those, we look back in a bunch of episodes and realize what was really happening and go, Oh, that was so smart.

But for what we get right now, it's. Okay, so that happened, right? Like mm-hmm. , Okay. That happened. I thought of the way I, I couldn't help it. How Star Trek would've handled that, that uh, uh, storyline and it would've been really close to just the line of demarcation would've been a lot clearer. And we'll talk about that I'm sure here in just a little bit.

But overall, I liked this episode. I don't know that this is a kick everything into high gear. Like I don't feel that. We're moving everything along in this episode that I wanted, but if this episode was like a, an episode eight or nine, or 12 or five, or episode three out of the season, it would've made the season a lot more bearable.

Yeah. How about you, Jeff? What'd you think of this episode?

Jeff: This episode to me, felt like. If you take out the death, like the actual killing, you know, of Iza in this Uhhuh, this whole episode felt like an episode of like Heman or Sheira. Yeah. To me, You know? Yeah. But that's probably because Larry Delio wrote it and Okay.

Who's that? He, he is the guy who wrote the show Bible for Shera. Do you know who

Brent: Shera has

Jeff: a show Bible? Yeah. With. Very complete and dense character descriptions that exist. What? Yeah. And we're

Brent: talking 1980s Filmation Sheira.

Jeff: Yeah. So Larry Delia wrote a couple episodes of Heman, uh, you know, and then they wanted to do the female version Sheira, and they hired Larry to put the, uh, the do the story editing for it and put the Bible together, and he went all.

Wow. Came up with all the names, right? Flu Arena, mea, um, mm-hmm. , you know, all Sheira, Adora, glimmer, all of the names, and then just really long, dense character descriptions. But here's the cool thing that connects it even more. Do you know who helped him write that show Bible and then became a story editor on Shera as well?


Brent: it was, uh,

Jeff: jms. It was jms. There you go. So Babylon five was born in Ethere. Really, which is a fun thing. Now we know this, the new version of Sheira Sheira and the Princesses of Power on Netflix, which is a fantastic, fantastic show that mm-hmm. . I don't care how old you are, it is really well done. But they talk and one of the key storylines through there is unlocking what the first ones were doing and how to use the first ones tech, and how the first ones can fight off the horde.

So kind of. But Brett, I felt the same way that you did. This episode was dumb. It was kind of stupid and fun and whatever, but I really enjoyed it and I think a lot of it had to do, I don't, Carmen, you know, whoever played or was, was so good. He wasn't David Warner good, Like David Warner is the high watermark.

Right? But he, he took, he took what could have just been such a cliche of a story and he gave it emotion and. My, my wife, but

Brent: he played off of, he, he played off of Peter Jurassic. Totally Jurassic. It's not Jurassic. He played off of him so well and elevated. And you know what he didn't do is he didn't overshadow the lawn character.

Like when David Warner came in with Grail, he cast a shadow over everybody. Mm-hmm. , he was the. This character of Iza is not the show. Mm-hmm. . He, he is a secondary character that served a purpose of, of taking lawn to another spot and he never, uh, uh, uh, He never ock. Yeah, he, he, he, he, In wrestling terms, what, what do you call that when you have two wrestlers that come in and they elevate each other?

Yeah, they give

Jeff: each other The rub is what it is. They give, Is that, what is that what you call it?

Brent: Give 'em the rub Or like somebody who's the champion who's facing somebody else and that the other person, like their job is to really kind of, Lift the champion a little higher. Right. Get

Jeff: him over is the other one.

Yeah. You say, and it's interesting cuz like you'll hear people talk now and get over and wrestling means win. Who's going over who's No, No. Getting over is like, who gets elevated right. In this and yeah. Iza totally got lawn over.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, he, he played him, Carmen understood the assignment. And

Jeff: ended it great.

Executed perfectly. Yeah. My, it was, it was, it was a weird watch for me. So my wife is Lebanese and Leban, There's a definite culture to, to, to, to the Lebanese. I'll tell you that. Family events, uh, there's a lot of great food, a lot of music, and they're really, really loud. great

Brent: for

Jeff: introverts, right? Oh, yeah.

It's super comfortable. , but like every interaction between Lando and I, I'm. . This is two, this is two old Lebanese men who, like one stayed in Lebanon, one moved to America, and they're seeing each other for the first time in 40 years. Like every way they talk to each other, their physical interactions and everything.

I even at one point I was like, Are the Sentara play on the Romans or on the Lebanese? Cuz like this is a beat for beat thing. But I, I say that not just because it's an observation I had, but one of the things in the Lebanese culture, I've, I've observed. That friendship is so deep and even when they kind of talk a little more formally, you know, my, my bro.

Now that we have, now that we have seen each other, I will throw a banquet so we can celebrate each other and celebrate our friendship. Like Right. That's a total Lebanese thing. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna spend $10,000 on some dinner, cuz I haven't seen you in 10. Just, you know, because that's what we're gonna do.

And it's, it's a wild thing. And it was just this, this, uh, the relationship with them was, was just, was oozing with that. And I thought it was

Brent: great. I will tell you one piece of the relationship that I questioned and you, you, you brought it back up in your recap as well. When Lando goes and talks to the dude in the dude who took over Sonari, what's his.

Uh, rfa Lord rfa. Yeah. Yeah. Rha. He goes and talks to rfa and then Lando comes back. He's like, Hey, I cleared it with rfa. We're gonna be cool, man. And Iza jumps all over Lawn. How Lawn, how could you betray me? He's the one who's doing this. You should have said that before now, buddy. Like, give the man some, some information to work with.

Or just tell 'em and don't jump all over 'em. Like that was, I just thought that was so weird. And, and they went from, Well, if you catch back me up now we must fight to the death. And I, I was like, that escalated really fast. like, I think

Jeff: it makes fast though. I think it makes sense in that like there are.

To U to use a Frank Herbert is there are plans within plans happening here. So he shared, like the me, one of the big ahas in the Santa thing was he shared that they knew the Prime Minister was killed and he didn't kill himself. Mm-hmm. , that's a big deal. And they, And they, Right. Pretty sure that reef is tied to that.

So, And he said that to lawn, not that he knew that rfa, but he is like, No, this dude was killed. Like he didn't, Right. Didn't kill himself. So he doesn't want to give away too much because as soon as he brings up rfa, then he's basically saying to lawn, RFA killed this guy. And then he is committed further than he is now of just like, look, the Centum or whatever is gonna, you know, censure us and take us down.

Stand up for us. Didn't want to. He wanted, didn't wanna play all of his cards. I get that. There's a lot on the line. And then I think it all fell apart. And we've all had that situation where I've got a really good plan and it falls apart. And the only thing I can think of is the most extreme thing that'll get me the same thing I'm looking for, which is the morgo, which sounds like a dance more than a dual, but mm-hmm.

So I think it was more of a reaction for him and then, And then he committed even when, when Lando walked in, he is just like, Thank you for not disappointing me, my friend. Right. But I think he was also hoping maybe a little bit that he would've disappointed him. Just like, Oh crap, I gotta, I gotta die now.

And I got in. Do I have to die? I gotta throw the fight like I have to, you know, look like an idiot in the end. Cuz everybody knows I, I can beat this guy. I would kill this guy.

Brent: Right? Mm-hmm. . Right. Um, well, I was gonna say that's the only way that it makes sense to me is he, He was just looking for anything he could use to jump to that.

Cause that's just where he was trying to go. But in the moment I was like, uh, on the other side. Isn't it so nice to see Lando just being normal again? And not being, and not being squirrly or squeamish or, or, uh, trying to act like everything's okay when it's clearly not. Uh, just having fun. You know? He, he said his great line, my dear, good friend, or just, ah, you know, like, you know, I was like, my dear friend got her a bald d like, I was just like, Oh, it's just, it's good to see lawn back man.

And that's what I want. . Um, and again, I said it, I said it again and I'll say it again. I, this has to be the redemption of lawn where it begins. It was like, now I'm not so sure. The one thing I had a big problem with, what he said was he is like, I'm not sure if I've made all the right choices, but I'm on the path and I have to see it through.

And I'm like, No, you don't. Right? Like, you can just stop making those choices. You can be the one to turn around.

Jeff: Well, Veer said that to him. He's like, You can make different choices. Yeah, you can do that. Veer Man, last episode, Veer was amazing. He was amazing in this episode too. And, and Lando even like, you know, I don't know, it held him up again.

But it was that end when Veer was just like, Dude, change. Do it. You, you can, This is, this is my fear. Well, I don't know on one hand, VE sounds like he might be instrumental in the redemption of lawn. Sure. Also, veer might have to go away because lawn's gonna put his head down and be like, No, I'm evil lawn.

I'm, that's who I am. And like, he's gonna have to do something bad to ve. That's my fear. My fear for fear. Oh

Brent: yeah. And speaking of Veer, um, the whole opera scene at the beginning of the episode was, Just fun. Now, I'm not sure what earth opera they pulled that tune out of because it sounded a totally familiar, Yeah, like I'm like, did we, What is that from

Jeff: bu bump bum, and then they went at different route with it.

Yeah. I thought Veer was riffing, but then they were singing together and it wasn't like an improv singing together like they were locked.

Brent: Yeah. They, Oh, who wrote, Oh, Steven First, and, And Peter definitely were in the trailer practicing that and figuring it out. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But there were, you know, there was just, again, the acting here, the sheer look of joy on ves face.

Like, we're bonding, we're baer, we're having fun. Like, I hate it. Yeah. Like, this is where we want to live. This is who we want to be. Not war mongers over here. Yeah. You know? Um, so anyway, I loved, to me this was the highlight of the episode. This is what the episode really was about, or should have been about the whole stuff with Sheridan and the, the monster, um, and zombie farts like, Fine.

Let's talk about that for a while though, Jeff.

Jeff: I don't know if we can talk about it for a while, but we can talk about it a little bit. . Okay. Fair enough. Cause I think I, This is, This is me. I, Babylon squared happened, it was around like episode 18, I think it was episode 18, maybe 19 of the first season. So it's been a full season since that happened.

Mm-hmm. , and there's been almost no reference to it. So this in my mind was literally like, Hey, hey, remember this really big thing that happened a season ago? Yeah. Here's your, So to set something up, coming up here down the road.

Say that one

Brent: more time. I don't, I didn't track what you just said

Jeff: there. Literally. This was just to remind us about Babylon squared and that Babylon four exists. Oh. And that's phasing in and out of time. That's all this was. But they barely

Brent: mentioned Babylon four

Jeff: at all. They barely mentioned anything. In the whole,

Brent: Yeah, in the whole thing.

I mean, I mean, I guess, I guess with the whole thing with Garal to giving him the, the data crystal and, and him like, Oh, I copied it because, you know, they had to send all that out. And I'm like, Yeah, of course you do. What else does he have? Uhhuh?

Jeff: Um, well he's writing his memoirs, so, Right. Yeah.

Brent: Right. Uh, so.

I legit jumped when the, when the dead guy grabbed Sheridan. Yeah. That was a good jump scare. Like, like it, it was, that was well placed. Um, and I should have seen it coming. Absolutely. Should have seen it coming. Did you have this thought that this episode would've been really weird if Michael O'Hare was still around?


Jeff: yeah. He couldn't have pulled this off. I don't know. Yeah,

Brent: yeah. Uh,

Jeff: but I also don't think it would've had to have happened this way. Right. So this was to remind us, the viewer about Babylon four and all that. But they had the vehicle of needing to let Sheridan know about. Like, that was the thing too, where I was just like,

Yeah, I guess he wouldn't know about that, huh? Oh, yeah. Okay,

Brent: cool. Right. But he never got to read the mission file, so, you know, because that's, that's how you fix everything with Sheridan, knowing what happened during the first season. Oh yeah. I read that mission brief. Mm-hmm. like, Okay, cool. Um, okay, so let's just talk about, what was it?

So there's, they were, The dudes were passing by this Planet moon thing, whatever. And this thing is looking for a ride home and he hitches a ride in this dude's brain, this thing That is what, what did, uh, Franklin say at the end? It is some sort of pure energy. Mm-hmm. something we don't even know if, if we couldn't do it, you know, and I'm thinking, uh, well, so he's, he's itching a ride.

He's kind of imprinting himself on the brain of. Body,

Jeff: the Marab and then Sheridan, he get,

Brent: and then he gets transferred to Sheridan. And Sheridan is going crazy. Now he wasn't controlling Sheridan,

Jeff: right? No. He was just uh, showing him visions.

Brent: Yeah. And that led Sheridan to taking some time off and then getting a star fury and basically taking him home.

Mm-hmm. . And then his soul gets suck. Because I was literally like, Okay, was this an alien leaving his body or did his soul just get

Jeff: sucked out? Oh, wow. I, I thought it was the alien. Was this, was this

Brent: a space dementor out here? Or like, I was trying to figure it out in the moment and I'm like, But you're not gonna get rid of Sheridan, so he's gotta be okay.

Yeah. You know?

Jeff: Yeah. I think, um, my, in my mind, the alien doesn't matter. Like, it, it matter. I think you said it in your opening thoughts. If this was Star Trek, it would matter. Here. It was just a thing that like,

Brent: Oh, now see, I wanna push back on that. Okay. Because I think this alien might matter, and specifically the type of alien that it is.

So it's an alien that we don't know anything about. Our instruments can't detect,

Is this alien a first one or an ancient one that is just out there. We know also that there are shadows out. That are trying to get home to Zaha Doom are there, and we know that there are beings that pre that, that, that existed very, very long time ago that were just kind of hanging out. Mm-hmm. trying to ascend or trying to get home.

What was this being? Was he, was he a shadow? Was he an ancient one or a first one that never made it, you know, to the next level? What was that? That he went home?

Jeff: It's a good question. I, I, I assumed that that t on portal opened up to whatever time period Babylon four was going back and forth to. That was a total assumption, Right.

There's nothing that said it was an ancient one traveling to the future. Yep. Because from, cuz that's my thought is following your line of logic, is that the first ones are going to the Great War with Zas. Yeah. Okay. You got.

Brent: Well, I, I mean, so if Battle on Four is bumping around time and can even go back millions of years, like, are we gonna, So when the Great War explodes and everything, remember like all these cultures have fought the shadows and they've only defeated 'em, not destroyed them.

Mm-hmm. . Okay. Play with me. What would then make sense? Is this just another we're going to defeat? Or is this where the shadows actually get destroyed and in the threat to the universe, like once and for all? And if so, is that gonna require all of the strength of the ancient ones, the first ones and the people today?

And Babbel on four is bouncing around time like Ted Bill and Ted's phone booth, , collecting people and bringing them to this time to, to do the fi. Like is that where the story's going, Jeff? That'd be pretty. That would make sense.

Jeff: I like that story. Yeah. And so in this case, it's like, here's this awesome first one energy bean that we don't understand.

And, and, and look, I'm on my way. I was on my way to the big fight. And you're gonna be there pretty soon too. Right?

Brent: And Zas SATs is the one,

Jeff: and then it would make so much more sense that Dr. So and So a while ago was so crates from Bill and like all of the pieces start falling into place, . And

Brent: if Rufuss shows up, Dude, I'm out, man.

they're just near wild stallions, . They're just like shadows shows up playing bass.

Jeff: Exactly. It part of, As part of Bureau 13. Well, because you know who

Brent: death was, right? Uhhuh?

Jeff: Yeah. It was William Satler. It's Sloan. Exactly. Oh,

Brent: I don't care. I'll take it. Yeah, I'll eat

Jeff: it. It's fine. That was mine. I'm the one who named him.

You just, you named the actor. I had to go, I had to go all deep Space night on it. .

Brent: Okay. Speaking of De Space nine, I know we talk about how like, Pulling things from one to the other just seemed a little weird. But people always say, Well, when you see all the little things, do we make the captain being a baseball dude?

Do we make anything out of that? Or is that just ridiculous? And, and let that

Jeff: go. I have to put myself back in the early nineties Uhhuh and like, I feel like baseball was a bigger deal back then than it is now. Yeah. You know, and maybe it was just more like, it's just more of a cultural. Thing that resonated.

Yeah. I I, I think I, I, I think it's ridiculous if, if it was, Well, was Sinclair a baseball guy? I don't think Sinclair was a baseball

Brent: guy. No. No, but I mean, and that's the thing about, about Sheridan being a baseball guy. We're 18 episodes into his run, and this is the first thing we're hearing

Jeff: about it. Well, we knew, know, we, we knew it in the second, second episode when he was talking to his sister.

We. Yeah. That's why, that's why when they had the store, he wanted to get the baseball gear for his sister. Asked for a

Brent: baseball hat. Mm-hmm. . What, what did he say to his sister? I, I don't remember

Jeff: this. That they, that she, she something, she loved baseball and he played, like, there was some, there was some stuff about baseball back in Revelations.

Brent: I do not remember that at all. Okay. I

Jeff: I, I'm, You don't remember them. You don't remember them saying Zaha Doom, Like, which is literally They did not, No,

Brent: you're lying to me. You are lying. They did not say Zaha Doom back then. Totally. Totally did. Okay. So did you notice his baseball hat? Mm-hmm. . So I, at first I thought it was a Babylon five baseball hat that he had just asked for in the last like episode or two.

Mm-hmm. , right? Like, I was like, Oh look, he like stole one out of the merch shop, which. I guess is not on Babylon five anymore cuz he kicked him off, but whatever. But then I got like a closer look at it. No, he was wearing a USS Agam or ees Aon hat. Really? Yeah. Which, I mean that rings true because you, I mean, think of, think of the Old Navy guys that you know of now.

They still wear the cap of their ship that they were on.

Jeff: You know, I still have, I still have the cap from my book. Oh, you're an old

Brent: Davy guy. Jess. I am. You are that

Jeff: guy. I don't wear it. I don't wear it. The thing is gross. It's old and it's gross, but I still have it. Um,

Brent: Jeff, that's, that's all I have except for the Star Trek.

Like the only thing I wanna talk about is how Star Trek would've done this episode differently. Okay. So did, did you have anything else before

Jeff: we get to that spot? Oh, no. I, I, I have like four notes on this whole

Brent: episode. Yeah, that's, that's me. So, Okay, so wow, this, here we go. Um, so here is a thing. I was thinking that if this was a t and g episode, specifically t.

Maybe you could push it to voyage or Enterprise, but really this is a TNG episode. I feel like we've seen this set up before. Alien entity attaches itself to main crew member. Mm-hmm. right Causes main crew member to go crazy. Main crew member eventually, uh, season understands what's going on. Now here's where it gets.

they realize that this thing, which they thought was this big danger, is actually just trying to get home and they then work in cahoots with it to try to save it home. Like that's the Star Trek twist is they, they actually embrace the alien. Mm-hmm. . You know, now there may, it may have shifted to where the only one who really knew was the person themselves, and the rest of the people were just trying to protect their guy.

And we come back at the end like, No, no, no. I knew he was just trying to get home and I couldn't say that to you guys because of whatever. And, you know, thanks for not blowing me up and let me, you know, go take him home. But it would've been this like we respect. And we're, we're trying to, you know, explore and, and meet new

Jeff: preachers out there.

We're connecting and communicating and helping and doing all these things. Absolutely. And that's,

Brent: that's, sure. That's not where this one went. Like this was, this one went like 85% of the way. Mm-hmm. , but then just fell short of that message. Well, which is fine because this is not a Star

Jeff: Trek. Went 85% of the way and then rolled back 10 because Franklin had to big time it and be like, Well, if that's a life form, I mean, we don't, we don't understand anything about that.

I mean, how, what kinda life could that be?

Brent: I don't understand it. I was gonna say, we know with Franklin, if he doesn't understand it, then it's not real. Yeah. It's not legit.

Jeff: So, and that totally shined through on this. Right. Well, Brent, I think we've reached that part of the show where we boil all this down.

Speaking of looking at it through a Star Trek lens, but we see if it has any of that star treky equality to it. Deep moral message, or maybe it holds up a mirror to society, gives us hope that we can do better in the future. We're gonna do this by me. Rating this on a scale of zero to five Deltas as to how star treky this, uh, episode is.

And Brent, you are going to rate this episode on a scale of zero to five star theories, just how much we enjoyed this episode. I'll start with the Deltas and I'll just tell you right off the top, I'm giving this one four deltas. Some people, there's some people that told us that we should have watched this before we watched in the shadows of Zaha Doom.

But frankly, I'm glad that we watched in this order this, I think it was supposed to remind us of Anna in this one. And then like the big, Oh, Morden knows Anna thing was supposed to be a big deal. But what I liked about this order is the juxtaposition to use one of your favorite words. Mm. I love of the of the Star Trek messages.

Last one. We talked about the needs of the many outweighing, the needs of the few, and how like they flipped it on its head and went a whole different way. Well, this time we went, we went in on it. So last time it was about Sheridan making the call to not go get revenge on Morden. That would save billions of people and they justified that with the whole Churchill and Coventry example.

but in this one, we see the opposite. We see, we literally watch the Babylon five version of Spock sacrifice in the wrath of con Iza, sacrifices himself Without hesitation, without any pretense. Without any fanfare to save his family. He was gonna die no matter what. Like if Lawn hadn't helped him out, he would've either just been disgraced, shunned.

Probably killed for being a traitor, or he would've chosen to kill himself to avoid the impacts to his house, and then he would've died without any honor. But instead knowing he was gonna die, he died in a way that brought honor to, to not only his family, but to him, and also house malar like everybody won because of his s.

This is literally the Star Trek message. In the wrath of Con Spock was gonna die one way or the other. Either by being caught in the Genesis explosion with the rest of the enterprise, or in the di lithium chamber. He used his inevitable death to save others, and that's the same thing that Iza did. Iza even created that situation that is now forcing lawn to rethink all of his decisions.

To this point, I thought this was a wildly Star Trek.

What do you think?

Brent: I was really searching my brain not to, to be fair. I finished watching this episode about five minutes before you and I came on together to do this. Okay. Okay. Like that's, I I, So they're adjusting a little bit, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I did not watch this twice, like. It, it's still pretty fresh. But I was, I knew that there was a way that these, A plots and B plots twisted together and tied together.

Like, I, I could just feel it, but I wasn't able to put my finger on it. But you just did it. You ju you just put it on there and you, you nailed it. Um, I stand by saying that with the, the Sheridan plot. They went like 85% of the way there. And then us rightly said Franklin brought it all the way back. But they do work nicely.

They did it in a Babel on five way, not a star truck way, which is exactly what I wanna see at this point in the show. Uh, so I'm with you on that. How many deltas do you give this episode? You're the one who makes it, not me. I gave it four. Four. Did you say that earlier? I did. I missed the four. Okay, great.

It's okay. It's okay. Um, so star Furies, it's up to me to do star furries. Mm-hmm. , uh, and it you. What we're actually grading the star Furies on is still somewhat subjective. I think sometimes like how Babble on five is it? How much did we, Just like the episode, whatever, whatever. I'm gonna give this one.

Three star Furies. Better than half. It's not, it's not stellar. You know, You could have watched this one before. The last one you, you were mentioning the whole thing about Anna. Mm-hmm. , that this would've served to remind us about Anna before getting into Morgan. I promise. If Sheridan saw this ship blip out there and went, Anna, that would've gone right over my head.

Would've completely gone over my head. But because we had Morden in that whole episode there, that was stop of mind. So that when he blip out, I went, I knew like I was with him. Yeah. I knew who that was, you know, So I'm glad we watched it in this order. Um, and I don't know that I could have watched last couple of episodes with the redemption of Lando Mallari just hanging out.

Like, this is where we've gotta go. The, the, the Nassari war has to wrap. At least I hope it does. And it's got, it's gotta change over into the major war because the great, this is the year the great war comes upon us, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, so are we gonna end the season on New Year's Eve again? Is that how this goes?

Like every, like, every, every, every season is like a year, and we, we catch that. Okay. By the time we get there, we we're gonna have to start this other war and, and people are gonna have to come back together. So I, I'm for it. I love where we are in this, in this episode. So yeah, I go three star theories, Jeff.

Jeff: I like that. It was a, it was a fun episode. Like it's, it's enjoyable. Yes. This

Brent: is an episode that if I, if I'm channel surfing, I'll stop and go, Oh yeah, it's this episode and I will stay and watch the episode. Yeah. I'm not changing. You know

Jeff: exactly another big question, right? Cause here now in season two, we are developing the definitive ranking of the episodes in the second season, the 100% completely accurate objective ranking of these episodes.

Currently our top five, which changed last week, is number one, is the coming of shadows. Two is a race through dark places three in the shadow of Zaha. Do. Four all alone in the night. And five, Hunter, Pray. Brent, it's on you to rank this one. Where do you put knives? Okay,

Brent: so

I immediately placed this one above soulmates. Wow. I, I, I, it, it's better than soulmates. It, it, it just is soulmates. I, I know. I love soulmates. It's better than points of departure. It's better than spider and the web. Um, it's, it's a good episode. This is, this is in the top, uh, tier of the season. It's not coming of shadows.

Race through dark places, Shadow of Zaha doom. Good. But it, it is, it is up there. So I'm trying to remember, Hunter.

Jeff: Was, uh, that's Dr. So Crates who was running from Earth Force and was being hunted.

Brent: Yep, yep. Oh, I really like that episode too. I think I'm gonna place this one just below Hunter Prey. So this will be number six on the list.

New number six. Yeah. And, and frankly, I think you might be able to put this one in hunter prey in a bag. Shake 'em and pull one out. And probably not be wrong, but I think I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna stick with Hunter prey. A little bit higher than this episode, but I do. I do like this episode a lot.

Jeff: Well, that's it for Knives.

Next week, we are watching Confessions and Lamentations for the first time. We've never seen the episodes before. We're not watching ahead. We're not looking at thumbnails or anything. Brent literally just heard the title. . Mm-hmm. for the first time. Brent. Next week we're watching Confessions and Lamentations.

What do you think that's gonna be?

Brent: Um,

I, I think this is a KO episode. We've been getting more and more cost lately, and I think that's gonna continue. And, um, you know, Sheridan asked Kosh, teach me how to kill these guys. And I think it's, it's like a training thing for she. . Um, and a part of that might even be like Sheridan has to cleanse his soul and or Oh no, I'm sorry.

Erase everything I just said. Okay. Confession. You know what a lamentation is. I know you do. Mm-hmm. a lamentation. You're crying. You're grieving. Mm-hmm. over usually your own. You're confessing and then you're crying over your own scene. If this is not the furtherance of the, the redemption of lawn molar to Jaar, lawn and jaar come back together in this episode.

That's, Wow. That's what I, Wow. This is, this is, it's, it's not this episode, part two, because this episode could have filtered, it really could have slotted in, in several different places, but it leads into, Lando and Jaar, uh, having a reunion of some of some sort. Wow, that'd be great. A, a coming to Jesus, if you will.

Right. A come to Jaquan. Yeah. I

Jeff: was gonna say

Brent: a coming to the Great

Jeff: Egg. Finally. Yeah. I don't know on this one. My guess is that we're gonna get another avan of a diplomatic episode. Ooh. But this one was some stakes, right? So one of the non-aligned worlds comes at her. They want her to deal with this for some reason.

Maybe they're a matriarchal society, like maybe we get some, mm-hmm. , some of that. But she's gotta deal with this. It's something heavy. They're accusing one of the other non-aligned worlds as something big. And there's like the possibility of all the non-aligned worlds explode. So she's got something real.

She's gotta bring 'em together somehow. And then somehow what the other world is accused of, like maybe they upset some old ruins or something. And it ties to like upsetting the shadows in some ways. So this will, this will do something to advance the shadows plot of everything, but it's gonna be done through non-aligned worlds.

And Avan doing, doing her best.

But we're gonna find out what Confessions and Lamentations is about right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. We appreciate it more than you will ever know. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and pop on over to Apple Podcast. Leave us a review and I'll read it here on the podcast.

So, until next time. Hey Jeff. Yeah.

Brent: If you and I ever had a fight to the death and then you killed me, cause that would go down and I collapsed into your arms, would you still be my friend? Yeah. And what would your final words to me

Jeff: be? Brent, my friend, My good friend Brent Allen. Peace, Peace, and long life.