Learning Curve

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: I'm Brent Allen, and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we're watching Babylon five for the first time For you, the one who is.

Brent: Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters that have started watching Babylon five. Well, for the first time. And over here we have taken those skills. We've acquired as Star Trek podcasters. And we're applying that to Babylon five by searching for the important messages that B five is delivering in its own unique way.

Jeff: Now we're looking for Babylon five messages, not Star Trek messages. Since this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we play the rule of three that limits us total to three references to Star Trek throughout the entire episode. That's it. No substitutions. Exchanges a refund.

Brent: And Jeff, if we happen to make one of those references.

Jeff: You're gonna hear this.

Brent: Yeah, because while this is definitely not a Star Trek podcast, those references are bound to slip in from time to time. That being said, along with our rule of three game that we like to play, there's another game we like to play at the end of the show where we try to guess what's gonna happen next week based on title alone.

Jeff, there's actually another game within this game.

Jeff: Oh yeah.

Brent: Well, here's the thing, I have no idea what you're about to say. Like, I never know what you're about to say. Like I am hearing what you're gonna read here in just a moment for the first time. I don't know if you're talking about reviews, if you're talking about comments, if you're talking about emails, if, and so this is the game where Brent internally tries to guess and go, wait, what?

Does Jeff actually have something for this week? Like, is there anything this week? I don't know we're about to find out, but Oh, wait a second. Wait. Oh, shoot. Oh shoot. I'm a whole segment ahead of where Holy nickel

Jeff: It's fine. We have a notepad here. YouTube. This is the stuff you get. This is the beauty. This is, this is the mess. There are blood on the walls editing this one.

Brent: you. You'd think we're still new at this. We haven't done this 93 times before right now.

Jeff: figure it out eventually at

Brent: Okay, let me start that whole spiel over again. I'm just gonna read the script and stop trying to insert stuff, right, because while this is most definitely not a Star Trek podcast, those references are bound to slip in from time to time.

Now, along with our game, the Rule of three, there's another game we like to play at the end of the show where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone. Well, this is the spot where we play.

Jeff: time to pay the piper.

Brent: That's right. It is time for everyone's game. Time to Pay the Piper. This is where we revisit last week's prediction and see if we got it right.

So, Jeff, what did you say Learning Curve was gonna be about?

Jeff: I thought it was gonna be a Lockley episode and that it would result in a clash between her and Sheridan.

Brent: Ooh, this was not a Lockley episode, although, although Jeff, and I'm gonna give you full credit on this one. Lockley was, it was a Lockley B plot,

Jeff: Hmm.

Brent: you know what I mean? Like, like all of that stuff was really very Lockley, uh, and just how she crossed over with the people in our, our alot. So I'm actually gonna give you credit, uh, for that part.

Uh, she didn't really clash with Sheridan though, and I'm not gonna give you credit for that one. So I'm gonna give you a 50% credit on that one.

Jeff: That's a lot higher than I thought. Yeah, she almost did the opposite of she of clashing with Sheridan. They almost came together in a weird way that we're gonna learn more about later.

Brent: yeah, we'll talk about them coming together in a weird way.

Jeff: probably in another episode in more detail. What did you think this was gonna be about?

Brent: Well, like you, I said that this one was gonna focus on Lockley, but I thought it was gonna be, she's more trying to get a handle on running Babylon five, but failing. It's one of the toughest things she's ever done. Uh, or I think maybe it was like Sheridan trying to learn how to be president, still continuing that whole thing. That was my guess.

Jeff: I feel like Lockley is doing a pretty good job running the station. She's got that down pretty well, especially because Sheridan and Dalen keep taking all of her choices from her. Excuse me. But, uh, so I'm, I'm gonna follow your suit. Lockley was in this, she was a big part of the B plot, possibly one of the most interesting parts of the episode.

I'll give you half credit on that one as well.

Brent: All right. Well, Jeff, I'm sorry. Did we, did we completely take out comments and, and reviews and stuff?

Jeff: Yeah. Like six, seven months ago.

Brent: What

Jeff: Yeah, cuz it was taking so long and people Yeah. We got like feedback about people loved hearing it when it was theirs, but not when it was someone else. Yeah. It was a long time ago.

Brent: we, we have not been doing reviews and, and stuff like that for however long

Jeff: Had a long time.

Yeah. 

Brent: my. What?

Jeff: Yeah. It was like the middle-ish to end ish of season four. So maybe not six, seven months. But it's been a long time. It's been a long

Brent: because I'm now realizing I haven't done this one in a while. If you'll play the KAR thing real quick.

Jeff: right? Oh yes.

Brent: I haven't done that in a long time. Oh my gosh.

Jeff: Yeah. I was actually looking at the button a while ago being like, we gotta, maybe we should dust that ju just for the purpose of, of hitting that sound, that sound

Brent: Right. I mean, I guess we probably, would it have been, we stopped kind of towards the end of last season when we were prepping for the season wrap up.

Jeff: I think it was, it was, uh, middle-ish of season four. It was, it was in that, that time timeframe. We were getting some feedback and we agreed our episodes were long, and that took a, took a good chunk of time to hit that. And so we've been putting the reviews and stuff out on our social media to share out there.

Brent: Gotcha.

Jeff: um, yeah,

Brent: my word. I'm YouTube. I'm so sorry. I've completely derailed this. I.

Jeff: you are deep in the leki zone.

Brent: Oh my gosh. I, now that you say that, I remember having that conversation.

Jeff: That's good. I, I would hope, I would hope that you remember us not having done it for a really long time, but you know, here we are. It's cool.

Brent: I, yeah. Oh my God. I told you. I've just, I, I pro I have not had anything to smoke or drink, Jeff. It's just one of those

Jeff: you should, maybe let's, let's just completely, let's take this whole other direction.

Brent: You know what I don't like, I don't like podcasts where you just sit listening to people getting drunk, like they start sober and by the end of the, the podcast, they're clearly drunk.

Like, I j I don't enj. I, lots of people out there enjoy it. Those are very popular. There's a lot 'em out there. More power to 'em. I'm.

Jeff: I enjoy it when the great, like the Greatest Generation, that's a podcast, star Trek podcast. I like by two guys who are a little bit embarrassed having a Star Trek podcast. They do those episodes sometimes, but they're part of a game that they do, and so it's occasional, it's part of, it's a thing, but when it's like, that's the shtick of the podcast, I'm with you.

It's just like, oh my gosh, I don't need this.

Brent: yeah. Okay. Where are we, Jeff? Uh, oh, 

Jeff: you are about to say, yeah. For all those people who haven't

Brent: Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Sorry about the edit on this, uh, audio version. You know what the good news is? You don't have to do any video editing,

Jeff: Exactly. This is entertaining for, for our YouTubers, for the for and for the audio. It's literally this. I'm gonna go It's

Brent: Or what? Or people just fast forwarded through, like get back to that show, sorry.

Jeff: Maybe I'll leave all this in for the audio. This time. Just, just be like, this is what you're missing.

Brent: And, and clip it at the end. Like just do a boo boo.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Okay. Uh, back to center. Well, Jeff, for those out there, for whom it may have been a while or simply, they haven't watched the show ever, but they're still listening to us anyway, in which case, welcome to you folks out there. Jeff, why don't you, Jeff, why don't you tell us what Learning Curve was actually about?

Jeff: Do you remember my guy N'Grath? Well, apparently he died. We never got any of that story, but a holdover from season one Central Casting is here to fill in that power vacuum trace. No, not of the Buffalo Variety. Just Trace is trying to establish his gang and himself as the overlord of down below. It's really smooth how he's doing it too.

Blasting people with a single shot from a PPG and then dragging their body into the open. Yeah, that'll show 'em. Trace. Yeah. Least you could do is plop a Naline feeder into a Kosh suit and really do some damage. But not to worry. Zach Allen is on the case. Of course, it'd be a lot easier for him to stay on the case if Garibaldi would get off his back.

Garibaldis had it with Lockley and he wants the full story. He wants an answer to the 10 million credit question. Fasten and zip. Or Zip and fasten also, was she Team Clark or Team Sheridan during the war? She answers just a little less cryptically than she did last time, saying that she wasn't on Sheridan's side, but she was on the side that says the military doesn't get to set policy.

What she doesn't say is that she was on Clark's side. Now Garabaldi wants Zach to pull her security file, you know the way he did when Sheridan came on board. Well, Zach refuses, but that doesn't stop the head of covert intelligence from trying to get past Zach's control alt delete screen. So what to do about Trace?

This dude is outta control. A couple of instructors from Endless Shock University are in town to update Thelen on their activities. It's weird to update the President's wife on something like this. I mean, What would she, oh, wait, no. Oh, sorry. That's right. I forgot. She's in Tila, right? She's in charge of the Rangers.

Hmm. It's a good thing she slapped that Ranger pin on for that one meeting, or I might have totally forgotten. Well, the instructors Traval of the religious cast, Endur of the Warrior Cast, bring along two students while the grownups meet to complain about the new Pac. Mira recruits. The two students, Raton and Tener go exploring, and who do you think they run into?

Well, if you guessed Deuce, you'd get partial credit, but Trace is the correct answer. 10 runs in to save a girl from him while Rasin cowers away on his own. 10 ear gets rocked, beaten within an inch of his life. Dr. Franklin makes the save, but just barely with information from him on Trace. And as gang Lockley and Zach are ready to take them down, that is until, until Z.

That is until, until Zen shows up in her office. Apparently this is a Ranger matter now and not a station matter and not just any ranger matter, it's a Morado matter. Terror traval and rasin off Traval sends Rasin off with the terror of facing his own cowardice while 10 has to face down trace. No matter how hurt he is, once he can stand, he must use terror to eventually beat up trace.

He must stand alone and regain his power. So accompanied by like four other Minbar, tener stands alone and beats up trace. While during lectures, everyone on bullies. 10 gets his power back and Dalen is so impressed, Dalen gets his power back and Dalen is so impressed. She requests him to join the House Guard when his train

Brent: nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,

Jeff: No,

Brent: you, you stumbled over that again. When you tried to reset, you said Dalen gets his power back.

Jeff: Oh gosh. This is, we're we're, you're Labunski and I Am Way, I'm everywhere

Brent: Yeah. That's just your opinion, man.

Jeff: That's cool.

Brent: It's cool.

Jeff: Tener gets his power back and Dalen is so impressed. She requests him to join the House Guard when his training is complete. Traval mentions that Lanier is training too hard and he's worried about him. Dalen heads back to Sheridan and she asks him about a thing Lockley mentioned to her.

Sheridan gives the best. Oops. Looks like I got caught face, but we're left wondering what it is. Lockley knows that now. Dalen knows that. Sheridan wishes he would've told her already. Brent, lay it on me. How was this one for you?

Brent: So, Jeff, the last two episodes have been very me for me, like they're really good season one episodes. I, I'm not gonna call them bad episodes. They were fine. Nothing great, nothing about them that made me wanna watch them again with this episode. For me, I feel like we're back. Jeff. I loved everything about this episode except for the really bad villain and his even worse accent, right?

Like, like that accent was so bad. It probably is actually his real speaking voice. Like, that's how bad that accent was. You

Jeff: No way he could make that

Brent: oh my gosh. Um, I, I, I mean, we're talking Ben Zane, like he's somewhere between Ben Zane and Kimmer. Like, uh, it, it's, or, or you remember the one eye dude, like right after Sheridan, he tried to kill Sheridan.

The one I deal with, his dude singing Neck Bones connected to like that day. Like he's in that re oh, uh, the strike breaker dude. Like he's in that realm for me, right? But that being said, I loved the pacing of this episode. I, I got to minute 33 and I went, how much is left in this episode? Cuz it felt like a full episode. This was not a man. This episode is dragging. Oh my God. Oh, I forgot that much left. It's like, dude, they have put so much in this episode. I loved the pacing, I loved the plot.

Turns with it. The whole thing with the Rangers and the mbar. I, there was one part of that I didn't like. We'll discuss that later. But I, I loved that story. How does it fit into this whole thing right now? I have no idea. Again, season one, this is a world building episode. Like, it's just what it feels like.

But I loved it. I thought the writing was really good of this episode. So kudos to j m s. I love how they resolved the story with Tinier, uh, and I even loved how they ended it with John and Dalen facing away from each other. And John like turning his light off by waving his hand in front of the thing. Um, I felt that this was a really solid episode.

Is it the, is it a best one? Like if we get to the end of the season, is this gonna be a top five? Probably not, but I think we could. This one I feel like, could easily be in the top half of a season, maybe like the, the middle, bottom half of the season or, or, uh, of the middle bottom part of the top half of the season.

I feel like it, it could be, unless we have episodes to come that are just gonna blow our mind, which could happen. But for the most part, that's, uh, that's what I think. Jeff, how about you?

Jeff: I really liked the characters of Traval and Durin. Like I liked the characters quite a bit. Um, but ultimately to me, this one felt like they took Grail and legacies, smushed in the Ranger stuff, and then we got this. Like I, I think I just have a really hard time with the fact that we're at season five, episode five and we're down to CD criminal elements in down below when exactly a season ago, season four, episode five, we watched Emperor Carta get killed in the league, move to COR on as six for its stand against the wars and shadows.

Like, wow, we have been to such heights, and now, now we're, we're watching this. Like we get a crime boss and some endless shock lore. We're almost a quarter of the way through this season at this point, you know, and like we've had one absolutely incredible episode. Like you said, ones that are okay. I have not disliked an episode yet.

I did not. I don't dislike this episode. What I dislike is the culmination of episodes that have come to this point for me. We bagged on season two, early season two. Pretty hard, right? I mean, we, your fabled heel turn that even makes the, the big show is multiple face and heel turns pale in comparison to what you, to what you did.

But this, this point of season five for me is so much worse than where we were at season two at this point. I'm just, I'm, I'm getting very disappointed in this. That's where I'm at. I, I, I think this, uh, yeah, we'll talk about some of this stuff. I think there were some, there were definitely some very cool things in this one.

I loved the Lockley stuff. I loved the end with Sheridan and Dalen. That's what I'm most interested in. What, what happened, what didn't he tell her? But to be in the fifth season of Babylon five. And that's my big question. What didn't Sheridan tell Dalen really?

Brent: I'll be real honest. I don't need a lot of the inner workings of John and Dylan in, in conversa in marital conversations. Like, I, I just don't need it. I really don't. Uh, it's fine. I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna bag on it, but that's not what I'm looking for out of Babylon. Five. Not at this point. You know, uh, you told us what was gonna happen with the story.

We have not gotten there yet.

Jeff: Tell the

Brent: Now I am. I am. I like this episode. I 1000% feel you on your feelings of season five as a whole so far. Um. The Telepath War, the Friends of the Shadows, which they mentioned and we've not done a thing with. We had, we had the jock sort of pop up and we had like a little thing there, and then we had the eyeball dudes and that's all we've got. Londo is supposed to go be emperor and man, are they dragging their feet on that whole thing right there, you know?

Um, it feels like they've just sort of reset and reboot, rebooted the series, which is kind of what it's, so here's what I wanna ask for the listeners out there. Hey guys, I'm gonna remind you, please do this spoiler free and all I want to know, I want to know nothing having to do with the story itself. I want to know about the production.

What, is there a thing from j m s where he talks about these early episodes of season five that he'd sort of, they had to sort of reboot the show a little bit and that's what's going on. Like, there's a, there's an, there's a, an intentional part here where they were wrapping down the show and now they've gotta kick it back into gear.

And, and remember like when we got Sheridan when he first came on, and I know that I've heard that j m s was like, yeah, we had to like, delay what we were gonna do for season two by a handful of episodes cuz we had to onboard a new captain.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And well, they're not onboarding a new captain, they're onboarding a new captain, they're onboarding a new president, they're onboarding another new president out on earth.

You're onboarding all these sorts of things for this, for this season. You gotta, you gotta kick it off and, and get it moving. So I kind of feel it, but to cap to, to encase it in this particular episode, let this episode stand on its own merits. That's what we're here today to do and to analyze.

Jeff: and it's hard cuz like to start diving into stuff. You know, if, if you've, if you've seen my notes before and you can see my notes on our Patreon, um, I, I categorize them based on the plots and so I trace was one of my categories here. I have one note under trace. This is dumb.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: That's it. The whole, I'm just like, oh my God, I can't, I can't, I'm, I'm almost personally offended here.

I am high and mighty, but I'm just like, you're gonna waste my time in the fifth season of this show with this storyline that frankly, they did better in grail.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Wow. Wow.

Brent: is one of those, I feel like they tried to give this character more time than he really needed on screen. Like just bring it, do what Marvel does. Bring a bad guy in. Let him exist to serve the rest of the plot. That's, that's all he needed. Like, that's all we needed to do with him in this episode.

Jeff: Do you remember last season when Ivanova pulled all the criminals into smugglers in and stuff to set up kind of that black market exchange?

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: It should have been one of them. If it was one of them and there was a tie, a tie to all of that. Like, Hey, I'm go, you got your own thing now I'm going, I'm gonna take advantage of everything you gave me.

There's some, you could have done almost everything else the same, but now there's some substance to it that would've been cool and not hard to have done.

Brent: Jeff, I need you to get in that, in that time machine and go back and tell jms that from way back when

Jeff: Hold on.

Okay. 

Brent: It didn't work. It's still the same. It's still the same. I,

Jeff: literally, he literally flipped me off. He told me to get out of his office. He's sick of hearing from us

Brent: sounds like what I know about j m s, uh, I, I too had one note under the bad guy, uh, description, although, My notes are just stream of thought. Yours are organized. Uh, it's this, uh, the ba He didn't get a name right.

Jeff: Trace,

Brent: Oh, oh, that. Oh, trace. Okay. Okay.

Jeff: literally his name.

Brent: that's what you've been saying is trace. Yep. Uh, because here's my note.

Bad guy is one of the least threatening bad guys I've seen in all of Babylon. Five when he's out there and he's like, Hey, hit him. And the dude pulls out a PPG and shoots him. In the very beginning, it was the weakest, uh, most non-threatening way to kill somebody. Like it was, it was awful directing. It was awful acting.

The script was fine, but he, he pulls the, he opens up his thing, pulls this, this p p g out of his jacket, like it has no weight to it, like it's just a piece of plastic,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: handles it like it is a toy. And he just sort of points it at him and like shakes it, like he doesn't act. And, and you could see they'll add the effect later.

That's how he treated it. It was just a think. There was no like, I'm gonna pull it and I'm gonna aim and point and pull a trigger and it's gonna do a thing. This was just a, my three-year-old, this is how my three-year-old handles toy guns when they're playing in a play or something like that. Like it was, it was just awful.

But overall though, this guy, I was like, he's not gonna do anything. I am. So we're gonna show him whose place Really, I run Babylon five. I'm like, no you don't. Sit down. Sit down, stop it.

Jeff: Sir, this is a Wendy's. It's just like, what are you talking about?

Brent: Oh my gosh. Can we talk about Zach?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Zach is good at his job.

Jeff: He really

Brent: He's really good at his job. He knows what he's doing. He's standing in the gap for where he needs to stand. I loved watching Zach stand up to Gua Baldy in this episode. You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of a very human version of watching the arc that Veer has gone on with how he stands up to Lando.

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: You know what I mean? Like, like it's different cuz Ve Veer and Zack obviously are two very different people. But like, if you look at what Zack's done, like he really has grown and come through this arc where he is strength and he's standing on his own two feet. And, you know, he and Garabaldi still have a relationship, so he allows stuff to happen.

But Zach's telling like, dude, you've gotta back off. And I, I, and Zach looks so good in that uniform.

Jeff: he looks great.

Brent: he is the best looking cat on Babylon five right now.

Jeff: Big time. I, I mentioned it before, I'll hit it again. It just, it rakes my heart for Jeff Conaway and what he experiences after this time, just like this was such a, appears to be such a healthy time for him, but that scene at the very end where he's just straight up calling Garabaldi out is just like, yes, go man.

But I think even so many other moments when, when Lockley agreed to let the rangers handle the, the trace situation, Zack's down there and he is like, all right, clear out, we're outta here. And they're like, but boss, like, we got him. There's stuff, right? Yep. Captain said, let's go. We're gonna go. He doesn't, doesn't get into this stuff or whatever.

He was just doing his job and, and not like blindly following orders. You know, it wasn't that kind of a thing. But he is just, he's just doing what he's gotta do. But I think the two crowning moments for him in this one were the Colin Garibaldi out, basically calling him a menari at the very end, but at the beginning, near the beginning.

When Garabaldi was going for the jugular on Lockley, and he's just sitting back and he is just like, Hey, this tastes weird. Let's talk about this thing. Let's Nope, nope, everybody, let's bring it down over here. Is it garlic that I'm tasting? Is that what that is? I thought that was great. That's him just trying to get in and be like, not the time, not the place.

Brent: is awkward

Jeff: Yeah. For everyone here, everyone. There's no way garabaldi, you're walking outta this looking good.

Brent: okay, so we have to talk about this now cuz you, you brought it up. This whole scene was a marquee scene from this episode, Lockley and Garabaldi having it out in the, in the room by the way, over their shoulder. The lady who was like visible in every single shot, little Shorthaired lady

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: looked just like Tracy Lou Coco. Do you know who that is?

Jeff: Yeah. Um, and uh, what's her name? Uh, Jay,

Brent: Lieutenant Junior. Jay from Star Trek. Next Generation, one of the just mainstay background characters who does everything on the ship.

Jeff: She really did. I, I, I remember watching her and thinking she must be related to somebody on the crew. They're really making sure she gets in all the shots.

Brent: right. Uh, There's a, there's actually a, a mistake, Jeff. Um, you, when you do your videos, you don't listen with headphones on, do you?

Jeff: I do.

Brent: Oh, you do. Did you hear the audio of them talking in the background?

Jeff: I didn't pick up on it.

Brent: Yeah. So if you go back and, and watch that scene and I like, I actually had to like go back and listen to it a few times.

I took my headphone off just to listen cuz there's, there's Lockley and Garabaldi having their conversation. These people are clearly having a conversation at another table. Now, I don't know what was said, it wasn't clear enough to make it out, but have you ever been listening to something with headphones and then like somebody from the other room starts talking to you?

You kinda hear 'em, but you're not really sure what they say. You're like, is that, is somebody talking? That's what it felt like. Like I was going, is somebody in this room talking? And I was like, no, it's her talking. Like, you know, when you're an extra on a set, you're supposed to not actually like actually say a word.

You just pretend.

Jeff: Cause they have the, the dialogue, the conversation's looped in the background somewhere and you're just supposed to sit there and

Brent: Yeah, because they have to pay you more. Like, it's the exact reason why when Garabaldi is talking to those tele pads in his office, they never actually said a word. They just stared at him the whole time and then got up and walked out. Like he asked them a direct question and they just stared like, they told us not to say anything cuz you'd have to pay us more money

Jeff: Right.

Brent: anyway.

Uh, it was, it was an interesting moment. All right, let's, let's talk about this. So Garabaldi comes in, I thought this was a, a very important conversation. I had to go back and watch it a handful of times to really kind of get what she was saying because I thought it was just, it was so chockful. Um,

you said it in your recap. The biggest thing that I pulled from it was she did not say she was on President's Clark's side. She was entirely clear to not say that.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: She said I was not on Sheridan's side, so that wasn't on your side, but I was on the side. Who follows orders? I was on the side who didn't wanna rip up the Constitution?

I was on the side of duty loyalty and honor. Um,

Jeff: well, Garib, all the asked her straight up, did you make a stand? And she goes, do you mean did I take up arms against my government? I did not. I, she, to me, what I loved is she basically said I took care of the people that were I was working with.

Brent: that is what she said. Yeah. Yeah. She, well, she said, she's like, I was a commander and my first job was to take care of the folks under my command. That's what I was worried about. I want to talk about that in just a moment, but first, as we get to the end of it, Jeff, Whose side do you think she actually was on? Was she on President Clark's side or is there a third side out there that we haven't really considered yet,

Jeff: I think there's a third side that we haven't thought about, and I think it's the side of people who just didn't get involved and just kept doing their jobs.

Brent: but they would've been involved because they would've been given orders to go do stuff.

Jeff: Not necessarily, I think we're making the assumption that. Every military base was an offensive, every ship was called out to, to fight. I could very much see her having commanded a a, a research base or a logistics supply depot and if, uh, Sheridan's ships came through for whatever she took care of 'em, if Clark's ships came through, as long as they were Earth force, she took care of 'em.

Right. I could see it being as something legi. I said, you know, research, probably not that cause I don't think the Earth Force is doing a lot of research, but uh, but I could see it being like a logistics depot or something like that where she just made sure her people were safe, taking care of and just kept following her orders.

Brent: I think she ultimately was on President Clark's side.

Jeff: Do you

Brent: Yes, I do. But I think she knew that it was wrong. But she also used these terms of loyalty, duty and honor. She is, she was, she was loyal to the office of the president, not necessarily to the person who was in it, and I think she was doing the things she was actually supposed to be doing, which is following the orders of the president.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Jeff, I wanna, I wanna own exactly where we are on this. You have served in the military. You have a perspective on this that I do not, cuz I have never served in the military. I tend to have a rule that I don't comment or talk about stuff that I don't have experience on, that I don't really know about. I'm gonna break that rule right now, but I'm asking for your feedback on it and your interpretation of it. Okay?

Jeff: Yeah, before, before you go there. I think it's important though to to own. Yes. I served in the military. I did not serve during wartime, and there's a difference. There's definitely a difference. We used to joke, you know, I served in Clinton's Navy and so our enemy was dirt and we defeated our enemy at every encounter.

Brent: There you go. There you go.

Jeff: Not only every encounter, but every encounter and deck and commode. Yeah. That's what we did in the Navy.

Brent: and now, and, and please let me take this opportunity to all who have served Jeff, yourself included, let me say thank you for your service. Uh, particularly those who did, uh, serve in combat areas and, and in combat. I had a really super close friend of mine. His unit just got deactivated. They had a big deactivation ceremony and stuff out in Hawaii.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh, here's the thing. She said, I'm not really that smart. I don't have a big vocabulary, but I do, I do have these little words, these, these little words like honor and duty. And loyalty.

Those are words that are good words. Those are words that mean something. And they mean something very specific to, from what I understand to military people, it, those are three words that are continually hammered home.

Like I said, ultimately, I think she was on President Clark's side, but I also think she knew that it was wrong. They weren't supposed to be doing it, but because of loyalty, because of duty, because of honor. She stayed on the side of President Clark, or she stayed on the side of earth. She stayed on the side of Earth Force.

Uh, if this is the Revolutionary War, she's on the side of the king, right? Uh, yeah. I'm not gonna use the other word. That's, that's where she is. Whether she agreed with it or not. The heath, the king is the king and I'm gonna fight for the king. Cuz that's what we do. We are a colony of theirs. That to me though, says that she was hiding behind those words.

And I have a problem with that. I think that, oh well, it's loyal honor to honor and duty, loyalty, honor and duty. Loyal honor. I got it. I, she said they something to the effect of like, they don't want me to think, they just do what I'm supposed to do, like I have to be detached or something like that. Was that in,

Jeff: Was that in this one?

Brent: that in this one?

Jeff: I didn't get that in this one.

Brent: Was it last week? Oh, it was a Stargate SG one episode. I was watching the other day. Sorry.

Jeff: Fuck.

Brent: Sorry. But in that, in that episode, you had a military lady who was encountering something, who was having a hard time with something, and she's like, I know I'm supposed to be detached. I'm like, yeah, but you're human. You're not like, it's okay. But anyway, I, I'm sitting here just thinking about like, loyal honor, loyalty, honor, and duty.

You can hide behind that and, and be on the wrong side just because of using those words like you are supposed to use your brain. And she said you follow orders until one of those orders does something against your conscience, but you choose to not do it, but you don't let that impact other people. If it impacts other people, then you gotta keep going through it.

And I don't necessarily agree that feels like hiding behind it. That feels like inaction because of these things, and this is what you're gonna put up as your shield. As far as like why I shouldn't do it. Jeff, what do, what do you say about. Using that as as an excuse is something to hide behind, or am I just completely off base?

I am open to learning something here.

Jeff: I think it's, it's wildly complex and I think what makes any Civil War, let me rephrase that. Most, any civil war, um, really complex and confusing is, is that, and we saw it at the end of season four, um, when we were kind of wrapping up the earth stuff. I fight for Earth. Both sides said that, and they both believed they were right.

I think that the terms, loyalty, duty, and honor, those, like you said, those are great words, but there's a lot underneath them. In the United States, we have the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the U C M J, which is basically the list of laws, um, and also kind of a code of conduct for how, how we behave and operate as military personnel.

I'm not a expert in the U C M J and it has been holy crud. Um, it's been 30 years almost now since I've been, 29 years, since I've, uh, was in the military long time. Um, So, I don't remember this all very freshly, but my interpretation, my memory of loyalty, honor and duty would be that that meant that if I got an order that was to do a bad thing, I needed to question it.

We were never expected to blindly follow orders, and they addressed that in season four, right when Sheridan's old instructor went up against him. And you know, we're, we're supposed to think, you know, that's what we're here for. That's what we're trained to do and assess them. That's where, you know, even up until last week, I, in my head, I was starting to see Lockley as this potential villain, this foil to Sheridan in some way based on this.

But what I saw from her in this told me that she adhered to loyalty, duty, and honor, and in doing that didn't get involved in the fighting. And I don't know if that meant that she did something extreme, like maybe she did have a ship and she took the ship off somewhere else. You know, over in drowsy space and was fighting the drug, and they're gonna come back and do that drug war that apparently we're supposed to get in the next, like, you

Brent: Or, or I'm, I'm sorry cuz this just occurred to me as you said that what if she like, effectively deserted, you know, like, that's not great, but you stayed out of the war. I'm not gonna take up arms against my, my own people. And I'm, and I've gotta keep my people safe, so I'm gonna pull out here and just let happen what happens.

Jeff: And then come back in and help, help clean up whatever needs to be cleaned

Brent: That actually would make more sense to me, Jeff, than a third side Maybe that is the third side. I also like what you proposed earlier, if I'm, if I may interject of that, not everybody was involved in the fight. There's a lot of other ancillary services out there, or just other ships and things that aren't a part of this, and she was off taking care of that.

I love the idea that she would take care of Earth Force, uh, whether they're on Sheridan or President Clark's side, sort of a, a, a patriot feel sort of thing. So, anyway, I, I interrupted. Go ahead.

Jeff: Yeah. Well, the, the whole thing was just to say, I think the e even that as soon as you say she deserted, there's gonna be, people say, well, she, she said that she sticks to loyalty, duty, and honor and desertion is the, the opposite of all those things. Well, no, it's not. It's never, it's, yes, on the surface it is, and most of the time it is, but not, not when there's like something like this going on.

There's, there's complexity, there's layers to look at. I think that we, in this moment, were given just enough of the story for us to literally have this question.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: That was the whole point of this, just to dangle this out there, and I, what I want to believe ultimately is that her number one goal was just making sure her team didn't get pulled into the BS of all the fighting.

She protected them at all costs. She was loyal to them. She fulfilled her duty to them. She maintained her honor for them all while still aligning with the core mission of Earth Force.

Brent: Somehow she found a way to not violate her oaths and not be involved in the, in the fighting. Keep her people like she found a way to, to make both happen. Yeah, because she, she said to Sheridan when we first met her, by the way, I noticed she didn't ask which side I was on, and Sheridan was like, yeah, it didn't matter. We assumed we knew what that meant. That might be Recolored. Now, given this episode, we'll talk about that, I'm sure here in just a few moments. I like what you're saying, Jeff. I'm with you on that because the idea of hiding behind and, and she, you don't get where she is or maybe you do. I don't know. Uh, I wouldn't think you get where she is by being stupid and playing dumb of woods.

Just loyalty owner and duty. That's all I do. Like that because she, she's like, oh, I'm just a lowly soldier. I don't know much, but I know that, like, that felt very speechy.

Jeff: mm-hmm.

Brent: Like, no, you're, you're downplaying yourself here, so,

Jeff: It's totally that thing where she's like, look, I'm just a simple caveman who D is afraid of your modern technologies, but then I'm gonna go on this massive monologue that's just beautiful and amazing. You know, cuz I don't know, I'm not much for words. I don't have a vocabulary, but raw. Here's all this great stuff that literally gets the entire gale to stand up and cheer for

Brent: Yeah. And apparently she has the respect of the people.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: The people.

Jeff: Because that's the bottom line. That's what she said. She said, my priority is the people and I took care of the people. That's what I did. And what she tacitly said that I heard is, and that's what I will continue to do, is take care of the people

Brent: I think in the end though, Jeff, you and I are both agreed. She clearly did not say I was on President Clark's side. Like she stayed away from those words.

Jeff: Very much so.

Brent: Okay. I may amend my statement of saying that I think she was actually on his side. I'm, I'm gonna go with what you said. She, she figured out a, a th a third option that didn't allow, that allowed her to not violate either her conscience or the Constitution.

So I like it.

Jeff: Be exciting to find out where it goes.

Brent: Uh, can we talk about Delin,

Jeff: Yeah, let's do

Brent: uh, delin specifically in, in this case, I'm thinking Delin talking to, uh, the two guys from Minbar and that council and they're like, look, we brought some new people in. What do you think of 'em? She's like, yeah, they're fine. And they're talking, well, we got all these new people in all these new races and there's a Pac Mira, and God, they stink and we don't even know what to do and this may not work. And Delin as gentle as can be, tries to urge them in the right direction. And then when he gets really stupid and, and makes a really bad joke, she just lays it out. It's like, okay, dummy, you didn't, I tried letting you come up with it yourself, but you didn't. Here's what you're gonna do. And they were like, delin, you're a genius.

Jeff: Yeah, 

Brent: We didn't think about that. What did you think about this particular scene with Thelen, especially from a leadership standpoint, Jeff?

Jeff: I'm gonna, I, I, I'm gonna read my note. I hated the scene where they're complaining about the Pac Mora, it's petty of them. It shows how menari aren't capable of innovative thought, and Dalen ultimately had to spoonfeed them the solution, even though she tried to help them see it. They should be absolutely embarrassed.

I mean, these are, these are well-respected instructors and they're just like, oh, we have this weapon. And did you ever see the movie? Um, uh, swingers?

Brent: No, but I know which one you're talking about.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Great. Great movie. I probably, it probably doesn't hold up now that I say that probably doesn't hold up at all, especially given the line I'm about to, uh, reference.

There's this scene where Vince Vaughn's talking to John Favreau and John Favreau's trying to pick up some girls at the bar and Vince Vaughn's trying to hype him up and he is like, dude, you're like a bear with these rabbits and you've got this rabbit here and you're a bear and you've got these claws and you're like, what do I do with these claws?

There's a rabbit. What do I do? I don't know what to do. What, what do I got? Claws in a rabbit. What? That's what this was, right? You got these Pac Mira, you got these other pieces, you got these incredible, and you can't even think two inches outside of your box to think about how you're gonna fit 'em in.

And these are your leaders that are training the next generation. Oh, I do not have confidence in the analyst shock at this point.

Brent: I, I don't, and I mean, I think that's, But Jeff, isn't that what we have proven with the mbar over the course of the show is that they seem so wise, they seem so amazing, but the more we get to know 'em, the more absolutely idiotic they sound. And, and what they really sound like more is, is uh, a grandpa who can't get over his, his own generational predilections, right?

Like, he, he can't, and prejudices, he can't get over it. He's just, this is just the way it is for him. And everybody's like, well wait for grandpa to die cuz I land ain't changing him. You know? And hopefully that'll go away with him. Like they're, they're so like, well this is how we do it. And we put everything in a box.

And, and she says later, and I love this line. And you've got white furries, white furries. You've got white stars today, so I'm not gonna do this. But she said, our trainings, our training methods are mbar to teach Mbar. She said, but we've learned from humanity. I love that specific line we learned from humanity that our differences are our source of strength.

So how can we use the Pak, Mira, how do we, how do we break this idea that we're trying to fit the P raw in rather than us utilize them for how they are? And I just thought that was a beautiful idea. Don't try to conform people to what we do. Use them as they are, use their superpower. Jeff, it's something you do really well, my friend.

You. You allow people to be who they are and you, you, in doing so, allow those people to work and benefit the whole, uh, just as they are without trying to fit into a box. You do that really well.

Jeff: thank you. I take a lot of pride in it actually. It's one of the things, one of the things I still show up to work every day for is, is being able to do that. But no dolen through this whole sequence was great. I even think when she was literally slapping them in the face with the answer, like she still had that like encouraging tone of like, this would be so great and we can do these things.

You know, like, why aren't you seeing this? But she was instructive in what she did. But I think to your point, what's so frustrating about the Men Bar is, I mean, the Narn figured this out two seasons ago.

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: We have to change and we adapt to how the world is changing and the Menari can't. It's been Dalen brokered so much of this Interstellar Alliance, so by proxy you would imagine the Minbar, or at least some of their ideals were part of that, but wow.

Brent: So let me ask you this. Are we seeing, I think what our friends at Mission Log would've called the gamification of Mumbar Society. Matt, Matt would say this a lot. Back when we were doing Be Me Up. All right. Uh, particularly with Captain Kirk. All right. He would say what they, they will morph him and make him do stuff that is outside of his established character traits at the beginning of an episode so that he can have this journey through the course of the episode to become what he is supposed to be by the end of the episode.

And they would do that frequently, particularly through the, the original series. They would just sort of make them not be what we know them to actually be, to turn. Are we seeing that maybe like JMS is doing that a little bit with Mbar society, making them a little twisty to what we know them not to be, just so that Dalen can have this shining moment.

Jeff: Maybe I, I, I think it's, I think it's bigger than that really. I think cuz when we first saw the Menari, I mean, God, most of the first season our, uh, Delta conversations were, Hey, Dalen said this thing. Right? There's so much wisdom in the Menari, let's dive into this. And I think that what JMS has done is he started us at that level so that we have this assumption, God, as I think about it more, he did the same thing with the Volans.

You know, he had 'em start at this level where we're just like, oh, they're so cryptic. They're so wise. They come in and they, you know, say the thing that needs to be said. Both the Menari and the Volans. And as the series has progressed, the veneer has kind of come off, you know, and we've gotten, you know, we've dusted off all of the, uh, the makeup and the dressing and the, and now we're getting to the reality.

We got there with the Volans. Turns out they were petty juvenile children bent on destroying the galaxy to prove their point. Now we're getting to them inbar, and it turns out they're, Petty juvenile children bent on destroying themselves to stick to their own ways.

Brent: It's kind of what the Volans were though, right?

Jeff: Yeah, it's exactly, yeah. It's just, I mean, I think that's the thing is I think that, I think the message in them inari, at least to this point, is that the things, the, the sacred cows we hold high, the, the great wisdoms that we look to, when you get to know 'em and you really break down what's actually the real substance that's, that's there not so special and just as struggling as the rest of us.

Brent: I wonder how that's gonna change for us on Babylon five for the second time watching, watching season one to Lynn and season one Mbar. Having the knowledge of them that we do now, like, think about watching, uh, how many references have I used so far, Jeff? My own three. Have I used all three of them?

Jeff: No, not yet. I think we've got two.

Brent: cool.

Uh, I'm gonna use my third, but I'm gonna have to borrow one from you later. Uh, it

Jeff: only get three. There's no borrowing.

We only 

Brent: a collective thing, isn't it? Oh, that's right. We changed the rules. Oh, okay. Uh, I'm not, I'm not gonna use this particular example. but think, think of any big bad guy that you learned stuff more about later on in the course of a series.

And then you go back and watch them at the, in the earlier episodes before they had fully established everything with them and think about 'em through that. Or, you know, maybe a major character change moment that, uh, they sort of pull out of the blue and I don't know if season five or something, and then you go back and watch the first four seasons thinking that whole time.

And yeah. Uh, speaking of a major character change moment before we get into, I think probably the, the, the bigger part of this whole episode as we round this out, Jeff, let's talk about Lockley and what is her history with Sheridan,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: because she says this thing at a moment, like, oh, that's not like him. And, oh, what do you mean?

And then, Garabaldi does look at an open file, cuz apparently Zach really was checking up on Lockley and checking out her deal and, and he walks away and doesn't lock his computer screen and just lets garabaldi look. Anyway, whatever Zach, I said he was really good at his job. Let me take off the really, and just say he's good at his job. Uh, and then Dalen has this whole question and Sheridan gets this look on his face and then they've got their backs to each other and not in a good way

Jeff: Yeah, that look was that, look, in my opinion, was played for laughs. Right? Just, I mean, the framing of him shutting the door, the whole like, oops, I dunno. But then immediately it was like, no, this isn't funny. This is pretty, whatever it

is, this is something serious.

Brent: Yeah. So I, I mean the, the, the clear answer, the obvious answer is that Sheridan and Lockley were a thing at one point

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and he never told Dalen when he brought her on that they have history. Let's go. I don't think it's like a sister or a cousin. I posited that idea, but I don't think it's that. I think, I think it's clear there's some history here and now this is like an ex-girlfriend or something. How do you feel about that knowledge? Let's assume that that's true. How do you feel about that knowledge knowing that Sheridan and and Lockley have some history?

Jeff: I don't think they had a relationship. And I, and I'm thinking that just based on when they first met, and it was so, it was so, um, Hey, I asked for you here. I'll look at your record. I know these things about you. And it was, it was. Commanding officer who, you know, looked through some jackets and selected this person.

Kind of, it wasn't a, I remember that time you did this, or, Hey, when we went and did that thing, even if it was still professional or whatever, that didn't, that didn't come up at all. But I think that there is history, like, not a relationship per se, but like, maybe they were in the same club or fraternity thing.

I say fraternity, but I mean, it's different, you know, in the future we're not, we're not keeping fraternities and sororities and stuff aren't so gender specific anymore, but like, maybe they were in the academy in the same house, you know, or whatever they, they track and there was some incident, you know, I'm, I'm thinking in terms of like Brendan Frazier, uh, school ties, you know, kind of a, kind

of a 

Brent: by the way.

Jeff: Great

Brent: Great film.

Jeff: hard film to watch, but good one. Real high, high point for Brendan Frazier. But, uh, but you know, they, they did some not good stuff and they were involved in that together. And, uh, that, that's, that's gonna be my guess is there was some like, not good stuff. Academy University, you know, way back in the day kind of thing.

Maybe when he was hanging out with the Dai Lama stuff, maybe even that far back.

Brent: I think you're absolutely wrong. I think, I think the implication is incredibly clear that Sheridan and Lockley have had a prior relationship. Um, ex-girlfriend and I, 1000% hate this. I hate this as a turn. Um, this is a betrayal of everything that we have seen in the other two episodes that Lockley was in.

Jeff: All two of them.

Brent: two of them? Yes, both of them. But there has never once been any indication, even when Sheridan and she were in private, let's say they had a bad breakup and there we're gonna keep it professional. We're gonna keep it strictly this, even still, if you have that sort of prior relationship with somebody, if you are alone in a room, you call that person by their first name, even if you're pissed at 'em.

Even if, even if there's some bad blood here. You know what I mean? You still, at least behind closed doors, there is a difference in how you treat that person then this cold, whatever, that they're putting up. And I, I felt like it was a complete betrayal if, if this was an intended plot line for Lockley from the beginning. It does not feel like that to me. This feels like something that j m s got to episode five and went, you know, it would be really cool. What if we made Lockley and Sheridan have a prior relationship, you know, prior to him marrying Anna, like she's an old girlfriend and now he's brought her in. Like, what wouldn't that throw a little?

Or the studio came in and said, Hey, you gotta do something different with her. Some, something changed.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: But it, it is a, it is a betrayal of everything. I feel like we have seen so far. And I, I don't like it. I don't, I'm sure I, it's gonna be fine. Cause I think they're gonna have to follow up on this. This is gonna be where we're going, but I, I don't care for this particular plot twist at

Jeff: Well, even as I was talking about how there's no way it's a relationship, I was like, yeah, it is the way. She's like, Mr. President, let me, like, they were almost using their titles and ranks as like a pejorative

Brent: even if they were going overboard with that and overacting like giving us a hint, lay this out from episode one through and let us see this cracking all the way to this one point, giving us this one line of wow. He's never really done that before. And that just like, no, no, you ha you have not. You didn't.

Here's it. Here it is, Jeff. I got it. This one is unearned

Jeff: Oh yeah.

Brent: Babylon. Five does so good at earning its moments. This one is completely unearned.

Jeff: It'd be a betrayal really, of what we've come to know with the series. In fact, I think foundationally, I think there are foundational, um, uh, relationships and, and rules to relationships that, a, that, that say, this can't be the case. They can't have dated. And that foundational rule is especially when you're young, you can't date someone with the same name as your sister.

You just can't do it. It's not possible. That was a deep cut to your favorite episode Revelations.

Brent: I'm so glad we've never seen her again. Oh my gosh. All right, Jeff, uh, let's, let's, let's hit the big part. So we got 10 and I'm sorry, what was the other dude's name?

Jeff: Rasin.

Brent: 10 and Raton. Um, they come on the station. Somebody's in trouble. They go off. They're as different as can be personality-wise. And dude gets the ever loving snot kicked out of him.

And then he comes up and he is gotta face the Moira. sounds very Lord of the Rings ish to me. Jeff,

Jeff: Well, I think there's only, like, there's until Za, Zaha Doom, Mora Doom, Zaha Doom. Like there's something I want to say about until Zaha Mora Doom.

Brent: uh, the terror of the one in the shadow,

Jeff: I, I'm sorry. So he's out, he's down and he's out. And Dr. Franklin's like, if he wasn't minbar, he'd be dead. Like this is, this is they, you know, they were sending a message and then Dalen goes to. Um, goes to Lockley and is like, Hey, so he, he told us what happened. He's gonna go do, this is our, this is our deal now, and we're gonna go do Moira Doom.

And she's like, what is Moira Doom? And in probably deen's, cheesiest, most corny line delivery ever. She, she's a terror.

Brent: I loved it. I loved it. 

Jeff: I hated it 

Brent: right and I loved it.

Jeff: Hated it. The way she's staring off into the distance as she says it. I'm just like, oh. Immediately I knew. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be dumb. This is gonna be, and I'm sorry, it kind of was,

Brent: No, it was brilliant. It was, oh, I loved it. Okay. The, the physics of it, you gotta set that aside. He just got beat within an inch of his life. As soon as he can stand, he's now gonna go face this guy. No, no. He needs, he, there needs to be some sort of, uh, the, the listen, as soon as he stands, he needs to be able to go to the bathroom on his own before he gets into doing anything else.

Like

Jeff: With no, with no blood in it.

Brent: right?

Jeff: Let's let that, let's let that

Brent: Yes, yes. And then let them go fight mono mono. That being said, the poetry of it, the storytelling aspect of it, the idea that, that as part of their training, that you would have to go, you, you get the snot kicked out of you, you are now scared of that thing. Even if you don't think you are subconsciously, you're freaked out by it.

So how do you, how do you get over being scared about something, Jeff?

Jeff: Hey, you go face it.

Brent: it. And they set him up. They throw him in a ring. They pull trace in against his will, by the way, you know, and, and Trey sits there, and I, I wanna ask, what did you think of this whole deal? He said, many times, I don't know how to use this thing.

This dude is trained. Yeah. But he is not really that trained, so suck it up. You're gonna do it anyway. I could probably still, even if I don't know how to fight with a pipe, I can still probably do some damage with a pipe, especially if I'm fully healthy and the other guy is jacked up. You know what I mean?

Uh, turns out they cheated because he was trained by the master, whatever, and then we all got a smile and a wink at the end. It's like, Mbar don't lie. Right. Anyway, I don't, I don't know that I, that I really, I don't, I don't know how I feel about the Mbar. Like he's sitting here saying, I don't know how to use this. He throws the weapon. Now it's like, I'm not gonna do this. And then they just let him go through it. Like,

Jeff: fly the plane up high enough. This was beautiful. This was like you said, it was poetry. It was a great idea,

Brent: and that's where I'm choosing to look at it from. By the way, Jeff,

Jeff: Okay, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. You can do that. It's beautiful to look at the world from 35, 40,000 feet looks, it looks really nice. It's when you get close that you decide to turn away and go somewhere else.

Because I think there was a moment was cool cuz like they started doing the the pike thing and it wasn't going well. Eventually, like they dude threw it down and so I thought it was cool. Tinier was like, okay, this is how we're doing it. He threw his down and they went hand to hand and I was like, oh, okay.

He's doing this.

But 

Brent: you my note at that particular moment,

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: like that specific moment I said, and suddenly we're watching an episode of the Power Rangers. Oh, wait, no, it's 1960s Batman oomph Zap Pow. Oh, no wait. It's just a spaghetti Western. And now I want to hear that, that that ricochet sound that a bullet has from Spaghetti Westerns

Jeff: Buzzing. Yep.

Brent: like No Gun Ever Sounds like that.

I just, that's what I expected to hear because the cor, the fight choreography for this scene was awful.

Jeff: We were so spoiled with Marcus fight scenes for two seasons that were just like, oh my gosh. And then we get this again. It's just, are we in season one? For goodness sake, this is, this is inexcusable, but I think my biggest issue with my two, my two biggest problems with this are Lockley comes to terms with this, and she's like, so he's gonna stand alone.

And Dalen is like, yeah, he will stand alone. And then there's like a thousand menari walking through and helping set up the little terror thing for tra, like he never stood by himself. He had a whole crew behind him the whole time. And over here you got du just taunting the everliving snot out of this guy.

This wasn't, this wasn't helping 10 face his fear. This was a gang of minbar beating up on another bully.

Brent: And that's, and that's what I mean, because effectively what you have then is they forced, Trace into doing this fight, honestly, I think rightly so. They lined, I mean, you're a wrestl, you're from wrestling. Think about those times when you line the ring with wrestlers to throw people back in. Like, I'm gonna f we're gonna force you to do this fight so that he can face his fear of you

Jeff: yeah. Lumberjack match, right? Lumberjack match leads to the steel cage match leads to the hell in the cell. Match leads to the I Equip match. Yeah.

Brent: Uh, and I, and, and then especially where they're like, ah, well, you know, young people don't really know how to use the pikes either, so you're evenly matched. So keep going. Now that being said, I will say this, uh, this may be the most unAmerican thing I've ever said here on this show, Jeff. The moment Trace laid hands or had hands laid on 10 near, he gave up all rights to recourse. He got the man, got what he deserved, man. Got what he deserved. And you know, that's my southern justice right there, Jeff. Like I. He got what he is up. I, I can't, I'm, I'm not gonna fight it. I'm, mm-hmm.

Jeff: Well, I think there's a lot to be said. Let's go back to schoolyard justice, you know, because when I think when you and I were growing up, that had a different meaning than it has a hundred percent that had a different meaning than what it has today. But I have very clear memories of. I think we've talked about this before.

Hey, I got a problem with you. Three o'clock behind the shop, we are doing this. And you go at three o'clock behind the shop and you do it. And then tomorrow morning when you show up at seven 30 in the morning, it's all good.

Brent: best friends.

Jeff: Yep.

Brent: Every single. I, I, I didn't get in that many physical fights as a kid, Jeff, there was a handful to a t every single time that person turned into up my best friend or one of my best friends. They really did. Like, that's, I don't know why that works for us that way, but it just did.

Jeff: But what it is, is it's the concept of a fair fight, right? You, you and him or her, and what? Just you and this other person? No, no gang, no weapons, no tricks. Just you in the dirt. Fists and you go, and the thing is really, there aren't a lot of fists, right? Those fights weren't fights. They were rolling around on the ground and pulling clothes, maybe a punch here or there, but you just got your aggression out and it was fair.

You know, and again, this, we were in a time where I want to be crystal clear to anybody listening, physical violence is not the answer. I'm not telling you to go get in fights with people, but what I'm saying is that a fair confrontation that can happen in debate, right? That can happen in a sales negotiation.

You know, if it's fair, you can get through it and you're gonna be good. This wasn't nothing about, this was Fair Trace and his gang attacking 10, not fair, opened the door to Tener coming back and then making it. But then that's where you get the escalation on top of, and on top of what if his gang wants to go get revenge Now, you know, they have a

Blood oath against, uh, against the Rangers, they'll lose. But now you got all this violence because no one had the courage to just have a fair fight.

Brent: Um, I, I would've been one thing I'd say if you're a grown adults make, and you're both consenting, have it out with a physical fight. The problem with this is Trace clearly did not consent. He, he was very vocal. I do not consent to doing this. And they forced him to do it anyway. And, and that's where I had a little bit of a, however, when I go watch Fast in the Furious movies, I don't worry about the physics of somebody jumping out of a moving plane and actually still being able to land in a certain, in, in an exact spot.

Like, that's just not how things happen. I'm gonna go away from this and I'm gonna watch this from that 30,000 foot. Uh, Jeff, I will tell you this, um, there is one thing that I know is still true about Babylon five. After watching this episode, after all this time, you can still beat anyone up on the station you want to and have no recourse.

Jeff: It's totally fine.

Brent: It's absolutely okay.

Jeff: You can shoot,

Brent: one.

Jeff: you can shoot somebody at point blank range of A P P G and drag their body out into the middle of the, down below, and it's probably fine. A, a note on Tural. Did you notice that he's played by the same guy who played the emperor in the coming of shadows?

Brent: Emperor.

Jeff: Uhhuh?

Brent: Really? No. Is he? That's cool. That's

Jeff: And his name, the actor's name is Turon. Like that's where they got the name was his name, which I thought was that, I'm guessing at least. But that's pretty cool.

Brent: Jeff, I have one more observation and then

Jeff: have one more. Also,

Brent: it's gonna be up to you to break this one down for our white, our white stars conversation. Go first with your final conver, with your final one.

Jeff: my final observation was that they brought up linear and how he has been training too hard and he's either trying to fight, fight something against something or for

something. I thought that was interesting. Did you have any thoughts on that one?

Brent: Yeah, I did. I was, that's actually probably the thing I hated the most about this episode was linear wasn't in it. This was the perfect opportunity to bring linear back, take Lanier and put him in this, in the spot of Raton or put him in the spot of, of 10, 10 Lanier, whatever, put him there. Maybe it was written for Bill Mummy and he wasn't available the week they were filming this, so they did something else.

I don't know, but it made, I was so mad that he was not in this episode cuz it was perfect for a, a linear return because by the way, guess what, bill Mummy still in the opening credits

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: and if they wind up ke this dude, I'm gonna be so mad cuz we love Lanier. There

Jeff: we do. I wonder if, if it was supposed to be linear and they're like, last minute bill's, like, I can't make it. And they're like, well, let's get this guy, we'll call him, uh uh, uh, Menier, no, Ben 10 ear. Yeah. We'll just,

Brent: That's 

Jeff: we'll go with that.

Brent: Because he kind of had a little bit of a young Lanier. And honestly Raton and, uh, tinier, kind of like the two sides of Lanier. Like if you take his personality, divide it into two, it's kind of almost those two pieces, right? Um, but I will say this, and this is the, I'm gonna use our third Star Trek piece right here.

Jeff, you ready? All right. Here's the big Star Trek thing for you. Since we don't do Star Trek messages anymore, Jeff Tener goes out and risks his life to save this girl. The other guy does not. Tener gets beat up and ends up in the hospital and the other guy does not. a result, 10 must face his terror and he learns about pitying the other guy and owning his own name. The other guy does not learn that lesson as a result. And in the end, 10 is honored to be named to Len's House Guard. And the other guy is not. Suddenly Jeff, this is feeling very much like the episode tapestry from Next Generation.

Jeff: Wow. Yeah. What a difference. A choice makes.

Just one little choice.

Brent: And it may not work out well, bad stuff may happen, but it's in those choices that are gonna turn you into the gold later without making those choices. You wind up wearing a blue shirt down below as a junior lieutenant, never really having an impact.

Jeff: It's a thing I tell my teams and people make fun of me for it, but I think it's a great little saying and that is, uh, it takes pressure to create diamonds and me, I work with a bunch of diamonds, but that is that difference, right? 10 got pressure and now he'll, he has the potential to come out as a diamond rasin, probably not so

Brent: I think tinier did come out as a diamond when, when they sat there and went through that whole piece, like, so how do you feel about this guy now? I pity him. Why? How do you feel about the name tinier? It's mine. I own it. Like he can step into who he is,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: you know? Well, Jeff, with that, I think we've reached that part of the show where it is time to boil it down and see if this episode has any of those deep moral messages to it.

Is it holding up a mirror to society doing that thing that sci-fi shows do really well? Is it giving us hope that we can be better in the future or maybe even showing us how we get there? Does it deliver that message and its own unique Babylon five? Wait. All of that is gonna be considered today. Jeff, as you rate this episode, on a scale of zero to five white stars, what do you got?

Jeff: Well, you already mentioned humanity and the strengths of diversity, which was a, a piece of this, but it's something we covered in detail in season four, and I loved the callback to it in this and the application of it. Dalen actually showing how it works, but the real deep dive I have on this one is, what does it mean to have a purpose?

Brent: Mm.

Jeff: What does it mean to have a reason for living? Back in the episode comes the inquisitor, another one that we were on opposite sides of. Uh, I talked about having a personal mission statement. I shared that mine is to improve others' potential and help them unleash it through my interactions with them.

This episode says that if I die with my heart and the fullest pursuit of that mission that my life had, meaning my death had meaning Traves counsel to Rasin in this episode, because I think the thing we didn't talk about, and I don't think that the episode really dove into is Traval set rasin up with his own internal terror that he had to work through.

We didn't get to explore that, and that's unfortunate, but what he gave him is something for all of us, Rasin is afraid of dying over something trivial or foolish Now, He's endless shock, right? For goodness sake, his death must have purpose or meaning cuz he's a ranger. But Tural tells him in us that we create meaning in our lives.

Not being a ranger, not some random external factor. And this goes back to the many discussions you and I have had on be, do, have. It's not what you have, it's not what you do, it's who you are and why you are here. And if you die or get hurt or suffer a hardship for being who you truly are and living your true purpose.

That's what meaning is. I think for the Rangers, it's summed up in the phrase that we die for the one we live or we live for the one we die for. The one you brought up a couple episodes ago that the one is not a person, it's not valin, it's not Thelan, it's not Sheridan, it's the totality. It's us. We are one.

Right? So dying for the one means dying for all, dying for the people. I love how Tural wrapped all this up. And I think this is kind of where the message really hits. We do every right thing because it's the right thing.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: That's it, period. There's, yeah, there's nothing more. Just do what is right. But I gotta ask if this was the intended message of the episode was the infusion of the use of diversity, uh, the intent of this episode.

And I, I, I don't think that it was necessarily the full message of this one, but I, but I do think that 10 years's macho honor guy fight thing was supposed to reinforce the message on this one, but I don't think they really did it in a very Babylon five way I. Honestly, I think they did it in a pretty lame way.

Like it was like we just like, I think it missed the mark. Right. I'm gonna lay my

Brent: I can, can I tell you how I think they did it? I think they did it in a very Star Trek way.

Jeff: God, you're right. You're right. They did. And I'm sitting here. Hey everybody. I just called the Star Trek way. The lame in the dumb way because it was, this was so paint by numbers,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I mean then we're gonna arrest this guy and yeah, I don't know.

The whole trace storyline drags this one down for me. Not just in terms of the episode, but in terms of the message. It watered down the message for me. So I'm gonna give this one, two and a half white stars.

Brent: Wow.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Wow. Okay. Well, I can't argue with that because them's the rules. Although I gotta tell you, I would've taken exactly what you said, and my interpretation was, yeah, that is exactly the point of this episode. That's what they wrote. This episode, did all those things that we've asked of, of an episode to do of sci-fi.

Even if it did it in a cheesy way, Jeff, I would've given it. I would, I would've, I would've probably come really close to doubling your white star account, uh,

Jeff: are you serious?

Brent: I can't, but I can't change it. I can't argue with you, Jeff. You are the final authority on this episode for this week, son,

Jeff: I mean, I, I'm not gonna lie, I, I could see an argument to three, maybe even, but almost five. Wow.

Brent: because I think that's Li Li literally when I look back at this episode, this episode had a point the writer was, was aiming towards something and he was delivering the story in an allegorical way. Cuz I think the only way I can explain the, the minutia of this episode that you and I both had issues with is it's an allegory and when things are allegories, it doesn't have to line up Exactly.

In fact, it's better to not think of it like that. Um, that's the only way. So that's, that's how I'm getting around it in my head. But yeah,

Jeff: I just, well, I

guess my push 

Brent: in this episode. That's,

Jeff: we are, and I think, to me, I think the thing we, I think we can agree on is that the message was great and that it was not delivered in the way I would expect Babylon five to deliver the message.

Brent: That's why I would lose a white star. Because it, it wouldn't have been done in a superly, a super blon, five unique way. So maybe I'm gonna, maybe it actually loses a whole white star because of that. But the, I thought, I, I loved the message and I did think it was exactly the point of this episode.

Jeff: Okay. I, I appreciate that last piece cause I was about to call someone for, to check in on you. Make sure you're doing okay. I was worried.

Brent: Whatever, man. It's just like your opinion, bro.

Jeff: Well, here's, here's the fun part about Babylon. Five. For the first time, I get my opinion, I get to put this out. You get your opinion as well and you get to share it. I don't get to argue with it on this one either. As we are creating the absolutely definitive ranking of all the episodes in season five of Babylon five and that my friend lands in your lap.

Our current ranking in number one, the very long night of Londo Maari. Two no compromises, three of you from the gallery, and four, the paragon of animals. Brent, you get to round out the top five. Where are you putting this one?

Brent: Uh, it's not even gonna touch the very long night of Lonnda. Maloy not even gonna touch it.

Jeff: I would quit this show if it did.

Brent: So where I'm looking at is I'm looking at these last two episodes that we've did, A View from the Gallery and Paragon of Animals. To me this episode is way better than either of those two episodes. So then I come to No Compromises, which is in our number two spot. I go, was this better than no compromises?

Which one would I wanna watch again? And, I'm trying to remember everything that No Compromises was about. I'm looking at my notes about it, and I'm going to say that I think, I think No compromises is actually a better episode than this, and I, I don't think it's that close. Like I really don't, but this is better than the other two. So this is going to become our new number three episode for right now. I did like this episode, just,

Jeff: I would've ranked it the same

Brent: yeah,

Jeff: Yeah, because I, again, I am high. I've been highly critical of this episode On Balance is a good episode,

Brent: yeah,

Jeff: just has some pretty big flaws in it. And we'll just call those trace.

Brent: feel, that feels like the def, the definition of what we've seen of season five so far. You know what I mean? Like they're, they've all been like, every single episode this season, Jeff, all five of 'em, you and I have said we like this episode. The episode was fine. Uh, how'd it feel? It's a little weird.

There's a little meh to it right now for me, but it's not, but, but just as an hour of television, it was fine. It, you know what it is. It's just not where, where we've come so far down from where we left off at the end of season four and we're, we're Lon a very long night of Lonnda. Malari definitely matched it because that episode was clearly written as a season four episode.

Jeff: Exactly.

Brent: It's clearly written as a season four episode. These other four episodes right now, not so much.

Jeff: No. Well, that's it for Learning Curve. Next week we're watching Strange Relations for the first time. We've never seen these episodes. We haven't seen thumbnails, red descriptions, anything and the game we love playing and that people like playing along with us as we try to predict what the next episode is gonna be about based on the title alone.

So Brent, what do you think strange relations will be about?

Brent: All right, Jeff, stop me if you've heard this one before, and then I want you to tell me in all the times that we have done this, how many times it's actually worked out for me.

Jeff: Okay,

Brent: I think this next episode is gonna follow directly on the heels of this episode. That's your cue. Say, Brett, this never work out.

Jeff: but it, it's gonna work

Brent: Yeah. Uh, I think this one's all gonna, is gonna be all about relationships on Babylon. Five and, and how everybody has hard times with their relationships. Sheridan and Dalen, they got beef, Sheridan and Lockley. They got history, which I hate by the way. Hey, by the way, end of season four, Garabaldi is on Mars.

He goes and rescues lease and they're in a hotel and they have done, they've just done what? Jeff

Jeff: I believe they got married is what happened?

Brent: and Michael's back on Babylon five. And we haven't heard a word about lease.

Jeff: Well, she's off running. Uh, Hampton. Edgar's Gu. Baldy Industries.

Brent: Yeah, 

Jeff: Heg. Heg Industries.

Brent: it's ti it's time for the wife to just at least put in an appearance. Speaking of wives, you know who else it's time to have put in an appearance. Ov it's time to see Land's Wife that he kept. Tamas gonna be back. I'm really hoping this is a comedy episode, Jeff. I hope this is, this is about relationships.

It's another one of those. I think it's just not gonna be about the main plot of the season. It's, I, I'm really hoping that's where we go, but it's just this look at everybody's relationships as we, as we kind of move forward through, what do you think?

Jeff: Almost the same. I

Brent: Oh, really?

Jeff: gonna pick, yeah, it's gonna pick right up where, uh, the other one did. And, uh, but I think it's, we're, I think the real focus is gonna be the Sheridan and Lockley stuff, whatever, whatever that was. So they're gonna be talking about that and then there's gonna be strife between Dalen and Sheridan of some kind.

They're gonna have their first big marital, uh, conflict they'll have to work through. But I also think, um, I don't think we're gonna see lease, but I think we're gonna see Lanier. I think we're gonna start getting a little bit of insight into what's going. So I think literally this is just gonna take.

Like the two most, some of the two biggest things they dropped in this episode. Boo Boo Boo. And right, right into that one.

And we're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you everybody so much for joining us for this conversation on this wildly divisive episode. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening or watching Sub Leave us a rating in a review and please share this video and podcast with someone who loves Babylon five, or is just about to fall in love with this incredible series.

So Brenton, until next time. Yeah. Yeah. What's up?

Brent: so. When Zach was put in an awkward situation and he started saying, Hey, look at this bowl. Was this, is this, what's this taste? Is it saffron? I, I, I hate saffron. Here's my question for you.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: What do you do when you are in an awkward situation?

Jeff: What do I do, dude? I get the hell out of there.