Legacies | For the Second Time

[0:00] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen but jeff i just have to stop and say this just real quick okay listening to that intro yet again i've heard it at least 17 times now right i've said a lot of stupid stuff over the course of the last few years on this show i know i have one or two things maybe.

[0:52] I've said some stupid stuff hopefully i've said some profound stuff as well but i know i've said a lot of stupid stuff this is where babylon 5 becomes babylon 5 might be one of the dumbest things i've ever said and now it's captured in perpetuity and and you follow it up with that's so great i love it says everything you need to know about us and the show right right anyway i'm brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching the series for the second time, watching and paying attention for all those things that we didn't catch or know about the first time around. And we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series. We're going to be asking what this episode is trying to tell us. Is it holding up a mirror to society?

[1:43] Is it giving us hope that things are going to be better in the future? Or is it just telling us how to be better human beings to one another? Now, that being said, Jeff, you and I have already searched out those messages once before we're doing it again, because we might pick up on some new messages this time, or I don't know, we have the benefit of having had lots of conversations with you, great listeners and viewers out there who have like, actually, you're completely wrong. Here's what JMS said. The message was, we now get a chance to revisit all of those. That being said, that is a good segue into this little fun-filled tidbit. Everything from this point forward is going to be full of spoilers. Jeff and I could mention anything from any episode anywhere within the entire canon of Babylon 5, the entire universe of Babylon 5 that includes spinoff shows, movies.

[2:31] Comic books, novels, I don't know, cave paintings, whatever it is out there, we can talk about it. So this is your spoiler warning. Please be warned, they do, abound this week brent we're watching legacies for the second time and if i remember correctly i really dug this episode we had some real kind of big ahas throughout the whole thing and um i think this really like solidified our our theory about sinclair and being a minbari we dove into a lot of really cool stuff i think a lot of our theories kind of had their genesis in, uh, in this episode. Do you remember what you thought about it the first time? Um, I remember that this one's about a little girl, maybe being a telepath and stuff happens. And I don't really remember what I do. Remember she goes off to Narn and we never hear from her again. Overall. My impression is, is this is a rather inconsequential episode.

[3:30] That's my impression heading into the second watch right now, not really fully remembering everything that happens. And uh for our viewers i i have a person looking over my shoulder i happen to know that this character is introduced in this episode but only because people have told me i don't remember him being introduced in this episode okay so that being said i i don't really remember what i thought about this episode i just you know i i think the first time around because we were told and we were informed that nothing is wasted and everything comes back around we put so much emphasis on everything that the things that wound up not coming back around just sort of fizzled for me. And I feel like this is one of those, because we never see this little girl again, right?

[4:10] Like ever. Now the other guy we do, I just forgot he came in this episode. He shows up again a couple of times. I went back and listened to our first time episode. Do you want to know what you actually thought about this one? Not really. Yeah, actually I do. Go ahead. Said, I didn't love this one, but I did like it. Okay. That was kind of where you said, I said, I was, I was surprised when I heard this. I said, I did not like this episode and I found it difficult to watch i said that if i had read it you remember liking it though totally yeah you remember liking it but what you said was you didn't like it it's so wild how that how you know just time does that but is it because is it because we meet we we meet naroon in this episode in naroon yeah i think he's only in like another like three or four episodes but they are very consequential pivotal episodes for the series yeah i i thought that like if this was being if you read this like a novel, it would have been incredible, but the execution just didn't work to the, to the point I said that Naroon was. Came from the Ben Zane school of acting. No. I did.

[5:12] Jeff, your comeuppance comes now. I know. Eat some crow, bro. Oh my gosh. This was a really big and important episode for us. It was between eyes and this one that one of our listeners reached out to you and gave us the story of Michael O'Hare. So we talked about that for a little while, and at that point kind of gave ourselves the rule that we will continue to be critical of Sinclair, but we'll be hands-off on Michael O'Hare moving forward.

[5:45] Chrysalis gets mentioned in this one. Okay. And your theory went on. He's related to Branmer and Chrysalis. In fact, we started kind of riffing on the whole thing. My thought was that Delenn, Satai Delenn, was on Babylon 5 for the specific purpose to Chrysalis Sinclair so that he can emerge as a Minbari god. Because we figured this Chrysalis thing, you said it probably turns you from human to Minbari or Minbari to human or something like that. You did say that. I said that? Yes. Whoa! Are you serious?

[6:18] Like, this part of our episode was so cool to listen to because we're just like, it all started with you being like, maybe, like, the whole cool thing is Branmer and Sinclair. Like, two people, like, kind of pulling the strings at the bout of the line are like brothers, you know, or something. And that's what happened where they pulled him on board. And it wasn't that they realized, like, his soul was whatever. They realized, this dude's Minbari and he's related to General Branmer. Yeah. And so it was going to basically he would emerge as a as a Minbari God, which I mean, I do. I do somewhat remember thinking that if Sinclair were to change into a Minbari and maybe even you said this, Jeff, and it may have been later on down the line that he would be Valen reborn.

[7:02] Yes. Yeah. It was it was like it's the resurrection of their old God. And it's going to come through the person of, of Sinclair who happens to be, have some sort of Minbari thing in him, you know? So yeah, if I remember right, I went to, uh, oh, he has a Minbari soul. He has the soul of Valen. And then that kind of evolved. Like it's for me, it's just fun watching this prediction kind of like grow for us. Like we learn a little bit more and we piece it all together. That's fun. But I listened to the episode. you dove into the dark dark nethers of the internet to find things that jms has said about this episode what uh what did you find well i found a couple of little fun stories a little fun facts about the episode but i also found some answers to some questions that we probably already know and figure out okay but these are things directly from his mouth that we can now.

[7:58] Definitively say this is what it is and not just here's what brent and jeff kind of figured out all right so a few things one this is another dc fontana joint yeah right uh our last one was war prayer i believe it was yes yeah uh jms says that that he actually thinks that this one was a better episode or a better script than war prayer because dc fontana had a chance to get to know the characters a lot better by this point makes sense you know also this was the only first season script that was developed outside of the Babylon five offices, which might kind of account for how I think it just like that. I think that's my, my feeling about this episode is so much of it just feels inconsequential. Like, it's just, it's an episode. Okay. No runes here, but still it mostly feels inconsequential and that might kind of account for it because it's, it's not whatever, but here's what JMS says about it. It was developed outside the office in the sense of it being a freelance effort. Okay. By DC Fontana. It was completely freelance. Everything else throughout the rest of the season was either an assigned premise or it was done in-house by staff. Right. So here's your premise. Go. Yeah. You know, that's interesting.

[9:04] Originally. Oh no. So anyway. Yeah. so you know this was just dc fontana going hey i have an idea for a story let's go i know some i know some people so anyway uh you do what now i like that yeah i i liked it too this episode was actually much like eyes i feel like so many episodes this season we've heard was originally meant to be broadcast later this was another one that was meant to be broadcast much later during the season which is weird because there's not a whole lot much later left kind of at the end yeah yeah we're kind of getting there uh but the reason he wanted to do this is because he didn't want two psychor episodes back to back because we just had psychor last week with eyes and then he had this one um and there's he said there's also one little detail that will become clearer after babylon squared airs it would have been better if this episode had followed babylon squared but then again these episodes are made to be watched in just about any order so it's actually okay in the long run that being said and i bring this up jeff i have no idea what detail he's talking about yeah i really want to look don't you tell us council chambers do not drop it in the in the chat put us back in the bubble okay yeah let.

[10:09] Us watch this and see let us watch it and see if jeff and i can figure it out but here's the other thing if we get past it give us 30 to 60 seconds to call it out and if we don't then you can drop that in the thing if you know what you're talking about don't you nia don't you dare drop it right don't you dare drop it let us get there see if we catch it and if we don't then you can tell us okay um but i'm really curious as to what that is jms says this generally the religious caste takes precedence over.

[10:36] The warrior caste okay so even though they're.

[10:39] All equal on the great council even though they're whatever they still tend to take precedence over the warrior caste speaking on minbari culture this will be really important we'll really play itself out next week when we get to voice in the wilderness from the cradle to the grave the minbari are taught that there is no greater goal no nobler thing to do then you can serve they are raised to be totally self-sacrificing the only exception is when somebody in the religious caste believes he or she has received a calling which if sincerely felt cannot be contravened since especially also usually involve serving okay like it serves a higher purpose yeah it serves something or serve someone so they get to go do that uh but only only those in the religious caste he says so for a mambari telepath this means this is the means by which they serve is by being a telepath right and therefore the telepaths are given the greatest respect mm-hmm Because they hold these people in super high honor. It never even occurs to them to do otherwise.

[11:37] Which we might object that the Mimbari are necessarily that, you know, altruistic. There's a difference between a cultural standard and a cultural norm, right? And so this is what they say, right?

[11:51] And then we see more of the reality. Well, here's the thing.

[11:54] Not to jump our episodes too much, but I will tell you, I know next week is Voice in the Wilderness. And one scene sticks in my mind burns in my mind from that episode and it's where draw is sitting on the couch with the lynn and he says something to the effect of people in minbar are not behaving like minbari anymore yeah the kids like the kids are yeah they're they're not doing what we're supposed to be doing so this is the culture and here's the underling the the young ones you know bucking that culture and and throwing it off and and really i mean i'm at that's because it kind of sounds like it's oh get off my lawn to actually a very big lament like no like yeah this is not okay where you guys are going it's falling apart i like i like though that he brings up the religious thing we had questions on our first watch because there's a moment in this where naroon just like defers to delen and we asked the question is that because she's religious cast like what's or is it and we thought it was because she was on the great council because that was only religious cast is yeah and and he goes on to say that lately there has been a bit of a change brewing they're becoming more self-involved putting their own needs above others and that's begun creeping into the minbari race uh and they're not really happy about it so you know there you go he says this regarding legacies there's one brief blip in there that we're gonna see again i'm not sure if you'd call it a clue but it's certainly a cue a hint of something to come you won't have to wonder what it is it's going to be shown in a flashback in that particular yet to yet yet.

[13:23] To air episode i have no idea what he's talking about here my gut tells me it's sinclair you talk.

[13:28] Like you speak like i'm in bar oh yeah that's my guess because that does show up in a flashback yeah okay okay i'll go with that i'll go with that let's keep an eye out see if we notice anything else it could be yeah but that is going to be your leading contender right there that's that's going to be that's going to be it i i do have one or two other things but we're going to save those for the run of the episode jeff sounds good well then let's watch that episode. What do you say?

[13:52] Let's do it. I love that. I do too. I'm excited to watch this one. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Brent and I are about to watch the episode right here, right now with you. If you're on our YouTube channel, you're going to see kind of the edited version for the reaction stuff that happens on YouTube. If you want to see the full and unedited version of this, head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first. That's the number five in the word first. And if you're listening to the audio on a podcasting app, let's meet you there on the other side where we will share our thoughts and talk about the messages that we uncover. So, Jeff, with that, let's go watch this episode. Accessing file. When the greatest warrior leader the Minbari ever had dies suddenly, while on a diplomatic tour, it's natural they'd want to honor him on his journey home. The way they're doing it, displaying his body to every Minbari from the Euphrates sect to the home planet. Ah, come on, that's up. Sounds like war drums to me. No. Minbari vessel coming through. No, that's a cultural thing. And it's not even a cultural thing. That's historical. Oh, it is cultural. But even on Earth, they used to do that. Come see the remains of this great hero. Well, I mean, the Pope just died here. And they're having big public viewings and stuff like that. The Queen died a couple years ago. Yep, same thing. Stay in formation. Invite me up. Oh, my God. It's a trap, Mitchell.

[15:11] Okay, I forgot about the ejection pods on Star Fury. That looked awesome. Yeah. You just blast away from the thing as it's going apart. I really like how the ship comes through and it prompts that flashback. I mean, it's been 10, 11 years, but he was dead in that moment. He's like, it's over for me when he saw that ship. I got to tell you, I don't know. It's playing in my head. The physics of that are really pounding into my head right now. You have the thing ejecting forward, which is putting a reverse angle on the pieces. So it's shooting them backwards. but they're also going outwards so like just from a pure safety standpoint you're pushing forward while these two things are pushing backwards and out like to to keep debris from hitting you and stuff like it just there it's just a very intelligent way to be everything about the star of theories oh yeah absolutely so smart i always felt like the 90s like the clothing styles and the hair choices are the most like they've lasted for the long like 80s hairstyles are 80s yeah 70s or 70s 60s or 60s 90s kind of i wear this in the 90s like, I like how Talia like immediately was up. We got Corwin coming in with her gun ports open. She's armed for a fight. Is that Corwin? That's Corwin. Yeah.

[16:35] Okay. No, don't do it. Don't do it. It's okay. It's okay. So I'm sure it was. I've just the angle on it and the way he was, the way he was flying. They're flying in with their gun ports open. Hey Brent, do you know what happened to last time I'm in Bari ship flew in with his gun ports open? Yeah. King Arthur came back from Avalon and jacked some stuff up with your car and then had a meltdown. I'd say, well, what are they thinking? Hey, we're here. Put this guy on display. Here's an earth forestation. No, no, no, no. But here's the thing. This is the warrior cast. This is not religious cast. This is not whatever. This is warrior cast toting this dude's body around. They're going to come the way they come no matter what. Yeah, you're right. You're probably right. You know what I mean? They are not going to be a respecters of cultures and other ways of doing this. Well, and they're probably just like, it'd be great if this started the war again. They would love to have it restarted. and i think it's maybe in a future episode that you know james talks about how the warrior cast was not a fan of calling off the yeah you know so yeah this is started last time we'll see what happens they want to get rough we'll get rough right back we're ready sorry there has been a misunderstanding you're a little late there ambassador you will scan the ship you will find that the guns are not oh she is telling no targeting sensors detected it is only a symbol to show they carry the body of a great warrior leader that is not what no no no No, no, that is not true, right? That is false information right there. I am offended.

[17:58] No you're a liar dylan liar it is a symbol because it's how minbari this is what we're told right i'm not making this up in my head right you guys in council chambers correct me if i'm wrong we were told in that episode this is how they greet non-enemies and show that they're not they don't have any intentions so yeah retconned retconned it all the way through she's wrong who says minbari don't ever lie dylan's lying through her blue little thing on her forehead.

[18:27] If her telepathic abilities just woke up and the psychor doesn't know about her yet there's got to be some genetic records somewhere as soon as we find out who she is i'll arrange for her transport to earth so in the psychor trilogy the first book where they really talk about the formation of psychor and how it came they talk about how there's a genetic marker in people with telepathic abilities there are some that don't have the marker but most do and they actually force testing in schools and other public places, but it doesn't always pop positive or, you know, it's not, it's not a flawless test. So it's reasonable to think that she's been through some tests before, um, and just maybe it didn't pop up for her, but it's a false negative or whatever. Yeah. Something like that. But what, you know, where Tali is kind of going right now is like literally at this moment, you are given, you're given the choice, the three choices cycle rep can meet her there negative she was committing a theft when she went down she's under station jurisdiction until that is dealt with she's not going anywhere you're not being reasonable fine it's my call and i'm making it excuse me i'm not reasonable but i'm still my call my patient and i'm ordering you out both of you it's like my medical stuff is bigger than either your stuff i actually i really like the way franklin handled that um and you know i i did we have this conversation the first time around jeff where the way these three respond to her particularly even Talia and Ivanova. Like Ivanova's like, no, I'm going to throw her in jail because she was doing this solely to keep her away from the Psycorps. Yep.

[19:52] Yeah. She could care less about whether or not she was stealing something and want to throw her in jail. She's just trying to protect her by keeping her away from Psycorps. We're talking about how it's petty shoplifting, and this is just personal. This is all personal. Ivanova's trying to battle her own demon through this kid.

[20:05] Yeah. But she's also wanting to protect this kid from what she knows. And it might be her own demon but it you know once you start down that path you can't go back so you better make sure you're heading down that path you know where you're going so this is the same uh same pathway emperor turin walks through i think elite okay is elite first name or is it a title like uh i think we decided it was a rank end to the journey this is commander sinclair lieutenant Commander Ivanova, and Chief of Security Garibaldi. The commander has arranged the place in which the Shai Alit may lie in state. There you are, Shai Alit. It is a worthy thing to honor the Shai Alit. The Shai Halud? And worthy that you would honor the importance of this place, with your hand. Mr oh man no did you see that yes just from an acting standpoint look at it watch his eye yeah oh he's like his eye flinches when he says that like watch his eye yeah.

[21:10] I'm eating my hat saying he went to the ben zane school he was yes he was biting this the inside of his lips so hard in that moment. Just the arrangements are most satisfactory commander. Do you think Naroon knows that Sinclair was the one they brought up board?

[21:27] The great council. He's not great council. Well, great council. So I, I don't, I'm reading, uh, to dream in the city of sorrows, which is, um, a book that is considered not only canon, but actually part of the story. And it basically tells the story of Sinclair, um, Between the end of this and War Without End. It has a flashback to him on the ship when he gets at the Battle of the Line. And he's wondering, you know, when Delenn comes into his face, he's like, I don't know who it is. Is it Renmer? Is it somebody? Is it Narun?

[22:02] And Narun is one of the ones he names. I know later we see Narun on the Grey Council, but part of me is like, is he now? I don't know if he is or not, but... Okay. But yeah, he's definitely, definitely has feelings. You don't like it, do you? Suzanne says, Jeff, that Neroen actually replaces Delenn on the Great Council when she leaves. And when he gets on the Great Council, that's when he finds out that Sinclair was the one they brought on board. And he says that he couldn't believe it when he found out. She's coming around. The sooner you're with the Psycorps, the better you'll be able to deal with this gift of yours. We still haven't dealt with the charges against her. Let's take care of one crisis at a time, shall we? Keep me informed of her condition. Lieutenant Commander. Do you think Elisa is hearing her real intentions? I mean she's not leaving Miss Winters not as long as I have anything to say about it unless Ivanova started blocking but she looks like she's leaking everything she's thinking right now yeah Ivanova doesn't look like she's controlling her safe.

[22:58] You don't have to be a telepath to hear the tone in her voice I trust you found everything to your satisfaction I have arranged for me he clearly has not figured out the Neroen character to where he does, that's fair yeah Diplomacy.

[23:17] This would actually be better if we physically saw the drum. Yeah. Like if they were actually playing it there. Leader, the hero of the line. I like his outfit. He fought with honor. Dude, do you notice his chest piece? Bravery and with vision. Isn't that from Jewish culture? Except it has way too many stones on it. He belongs to the ages. Never mind. Folding the silk flag. The triangle flag, Jeff. The flag itself was a triangle. Mm-hmm. Of course it was. Right. I mean, as we know triangles in Mimbari culture, I would have heard, It'd be cool if I keep in their paper were triangles and stuff. Uh-oh, body's gone. Where is the Shia-Lit? Three days later, there was no body.

[24:01] Are you threatening to make war over this? That is how the last one started, with the murder of Dukat. That was a tragic accident. And if this is another such accident... If I may, no matter how great the loss... Did he just call the murder of Dukat? A single clan dictate Minbari policy. It's interesting they refer to that as a murder. Yeah. A murder has a connotation of I, as a person, took out that person there. I aimed and directed towards that person. Intent, motive. That's not what happened. They fired on the ship, and he, among with other folks, died. They were not aiming for him. You might be able to argue that it's technically a murder, but that's not a murder. It's not an assassination. We know that a warrior cast guy who wants to restart the war needs a reason to restart the war. And these people murdered our leader. That's a reason to restart the war. And you say that enough, right? Every time you talk about it, he was murdered. He was murdered. Or if he's got his little news echo chamber and that's how they're always playing it. Going to believe it.

[25:12] That's how they're going to see it yeah this material is from the burial robes of an esteemed membari leader his body's been stolen if i remember right the rune is doing this right, doing with it the root has stolen the body courtesy to women barry which is why i was like pay attention to how she's reacting to this i'm afraid i have no choice i'll have to make a deeper inquiry if your man garibaldi cannot handle the assignment he must be replaced by someone who can mr garibaldi will do his job search of all public areas and quarters had to be done first Now they're looking at the station structure itself. So imagine John Vickery doing insane. Mm-hmm. I mean, he's still chewing every line, but he's doing it so much better. I need to have my ship assume the job of taking this station apart. I don't take kindly to threats. He's not in his face. Threats, come on. Just do it. Take a good look at their homeworld, Elisa. That's fair. fair.

[26:18] I do appreciate how Ivana was like, wanting her to make an informed decision. Know about Cyclob. Know about the Narn.

[26:29] So this girl came aboard when she was 12 and that was like a year or two ago, right? Maybe three years ago. So she's 13, 14, 15 years old. You're going to allow a 13, 14, 15 year old to go off to another world on her own to give genetic material twice a month? Better than Psycor, apparently. To know the truth about all my choices. Is that all of it? Narn, Psycor, the drugs? Oh, prison. Prison's an option, too. No. There's one more possibility you should consider. See, I don't know that I would look and see what D'Lynn's doing and consider I consider that as building something. So, Alisa. No. Well, she just, she had her hands around a thing. I just want to see all the cards on the table before I make a bet. It looks like she's doing a house of cards. It wasn't aware there was a game involved. It's just an expression of speech and buzzer. Honestly, I wouldn't even pay attention to what she's doing. Yeah, it's very just. Perhaps we should start with some general information first. We didn't. For them in Barrow, Psy ability is considered a gift. We do not all think the same way. We.

[27:33] Dude, they're ganking them with those tri-luminaries, man. I, uh... Dylan's a little shady, man. Just call her for what she... Look, I love Dylan. I love Dylan. She's a little shady sometimes. Is there something going on around here by the dead body? Yes, why? I saw something about the body. I know what happened to it. Mr. Garibaldi, I need to see you immediately.

[28:00] If it's bone, that has to hurt. I mean, have you ever punched somebody in the face before? Yes. Like, my God. My God. It hurts so bad. And then to have like a whole other thing on there. Well, it's not bad when that thing's foamy. That made a phone. So council chambers is, uh, telling us to stop because we said, Hey, if we missed the thing, right. Like you mentioned that one, right. You remind us of why we asked them to stop us and then they can tell us what's up. So, um, JMS said that there, that one of the reasons that this episode should have been aired after Babylon 5 is because of one little thing that would have been better following Babylon 5. Babylon squared. Babylon squared. That's what I meant. Babylon squared. Okay. Was it because they came at them with the Triluminaries? Is that it? They're saying that you said it. So I mean, it's that or it's Dillon's shady? They're janking people with the Triluminaries or just Dillon and Shady. Because I could tell you that. Did we see the Triluminaries in Babylon squared? Dillon gets the Triluminary in Babylon squared.

[29:05] I'm not missing anything having watched it right here because what I know having watched, well, JMS said that he's like, it's fine. Yeah. It's really okay. Like in the sky full of stars, we saw like a triangle thing. We've seen trying and here they have a triangle. Cool. All tracks.

[29:18] Yeah. So, but I get that from JMS. Like doesn't matter. So if Dylan gets the tri-luminary in the next episode or a couple episodes from now, and then she gave it to this person to go in and gank somebody with it. Although that seems really out of how, out of uh character i think might be the right word for what a triluminary does like like a triluminary can blast people well i think a triluminary is a plot device yeah yeah have you ever jeff have we ever talked about what a triluminary is made out of and why it responds to people with sinclair's dna in them i don't think we have so i think this is 100 a fan theory or it's something that's been out there but what what they're saying it is was um remember the the hand communicators are molecularly molecularly bonded to a person's code it's pieces of his of his link and so the triluminaries are actually made out of pieces of michael sinclair michael jeffrey sinclair's uh thing and they're just literally wrapped around a triangle like with wire like that's all it is just hanging out like it's little bits of a circuit and if you look at It looks like it's just a little chunk of a circuit board right there in the center. That's all it looks like. I actually really like Suzanne's theory that it's made of Naquita. Even better. Yeah. Are you sure it's Naquita and not Naquadria? Naquadria, yeah.

[30:39] Dangerous stuff. Yeah. So just saying that that Triluminary. Now, what does that Triluminary have to do with the Chrysalis device and turning you from one into the other or shooting people? Like i totally get why it would glow if it was up against somebody with valen's dna totally get that what's kind of like in star trek where they're like hey we need a shield and we don't have one hold on let me take my communicator off and then rewire it boom now i have a personal shield right why not yeah how do you think you're doing everywhere has been searched but here in a room hiding out in his room to jump him i searched these quarters personally with ambassador delan observing escort the elite back to his quarters we'll continue the search without his help, you know i like how how sinclair just lets that go yeah i brought someone to see you lisa belden i think you better talk to her no don't no he does not make good decisions for children, miss belden when i was talking to ambassador delen she covered it up real quick but, commander she knows who took that mimbari body and she knows where it is i can tell you where it's not that lady's acting school because she never went.

[31:56] Ambassador. Good evening, Commander. Mr. Garibaldi. Shipping something home, Ambassador? Just some personal possessions. This body, perhaps? Dude, if that was the dude's, like, hand... Oh, I'd be messed up. I think we need to talk. Okay, what is that thing? It's an urn. Speaking of which, you know how the Undertaker... Is that like a canopic jar? Yeah, the Undertaker makes money. He earns it. Quite a drink. Wow. Stealing Branmer's body and cremating it without anyone noticing it. He told me that when he was called, he wanted only a simple funeral. He did not want to be a monument to war. Maroon and the Star Riders have subverted his wishes with this display of his body. I decided to carry on Branmer's wishes. His ashes are to be sent home. So she took his body out. Yeah, and if I can put this in a slightly different set of words, she had an emotional reaction to what was going on and made a decision based solely on her feelings in the moment, not considering anything or anyone else around her. Gosh, I sure hope that doesn't happen again.

[32:57] That sounds pretty on brand. it you've put us in a difficult situation it is more difficult than you suspect you see a rift between the religious before we get into this no she makes a decision on her own based on what she says his wishes were this is a world according to delen there's nothing saying that's actually what it was then the minute people are like where's his body she's like humans them and how dare they do this you've dishonored the minbari and the warrior cast she didn't hesitate to throw sinclair garibaldi everybody straight under the bus and was holding on and even now she's like i'm i'm right sinclair is such a better man than i would ever be because i would just be like listen you okay you're honoring why throw us under the bus there are big stakes here naroon's not going to start a war with the religious caste to start a war with earth let me ask you this do you think that that um independence and free thought of delin is part of what made ducat want her yeah she thinks differently than others i think absolutely yeah not that she thinks as like the preeminent minbari or she's she embodies all things minbari but she has independent thought and she is not afraid to act on her independent thought.

[34:21] Which is something we saw when she was just a little acolyte or whatever. And he noticed that in her, that, that this thing, which it sounds like you're decrying right now, Jeff actually is the thing that brought her into this.

[34:36] There's a difference between thinking differently and approaching things differently than actively letting other people take the blame for things that you're claiming were important to have happened, where there is no evidence that it was actually important to it to have happened. I'm honoring his wishes. Naroon says, you guys did it. Yeah.

[34:54] If you, you dishonor the warrior cast and they don't mess around. How dare, if it wasn't for that. Well, but she also said she was going to come back and, and explain it as a ascension of his body and that kind of stuff. And that she, she couldn't just jump to that straight away. She had to like, let it mellow. How long? But like Naroon's, Naroon's hiding out in Sinclair's room to fight him like a 13 year old. Like, and maybe if it isn't okay to say it is wildly immature and done very poorly and literally putting the galaxy at risk again that is literally i mean that's what delin does is she bucks like hey don't go do this thing yeah screw you i'm gonna do it anyway why because it's the calling of my heart don't go through the chrysalis thing nope i'm gonna do it anyway to prove the prophecy right and in doing so prove that the prophecy was about me and how many times did you say something about that like that regarding her and sheridan particularly in the later seasons Like it's on brand for who Dylan is. It doesn't always make her wrong though, you know, because what does Dylan do? Dylan does push things forward. Dylan does enact positive change.

[35:58] Uh, you know, I mean, my God, she winds up reforming the entire great council waiting towards the worker class. Well, she does good way. So because of Neroon, well, I mean, in Texas endless shock in our, in our comment says, or is it because of Kosh? Yeah. And she, now that's the other thing is she's always had information that nobody else has had and that includes the rest of the great council and naroon and you know and if you think that kosh is a good guy then hey if you think he's a bad guy i don't think he's a good or a bad guy i think he's an ordered guy compared to a chaotic guy.

[36:30] Yeah. So is Dylan chaotic? Good. She's chaotic. Good. How do you put her chaotic, neutral, chaotic, bad, like, like, or chaotic, evil. She's got to be, she's not chaotic. That's what she is. Not, not at all. No. And I would lean chaotic. I lean between good and neutral. I know there's like more complex alignment charts out there. And I would say chaotic. Good. If it weren't for the times, like when Sheridan comes back from the dead and she goes out of her way to go be a part of the spotlight too. Yeah. Look at me. Look what I'm doing. There are multiple times that she. I read that way different than you. Multiple times she jumps in to try and hog other spotlight. She does. Diplomacy, Jeff. Diplomacy. When we wrapped the series up, what was one of my unpopular opinions? I thought she was the worst. One of the worst.

[37:24] And that's fair. People in Texas saying that you'll never believe that. That's okay. You don't have to believe it. I mean, it's true, but you don't have to. You guys can send in your emails to Jeff. But it's an opinion. It's my interpretation of the whole thing. And I see it multiple times where she observes. And the way they do the cinematography, too, is her apart from a thing that's happening, seeing it happen, and then hurrying to go be a part of it. And not necessarily in a meaningful or value-added way. Very much in a, me too, me too, kind of a way. I would think more in a self-serving kind of way. Like, I don't care what's going on. And I'm going in there for, like, that's my dude and I need to go see him. I don't care what he is right now. That's a very romantic way of looking at it. I'm not much of a romantic guy. I am, actually. That's true. It's not when I watch TV, I guess. All right. Yeah. Speaking of watching TV, let's get back. It's regrettable. You see no choice. We will tell him the truth, but I will tell him my way. I'm going to tell him a story. And whether you stick to it or not, I won't hesitate to throw you under a bus. He was warrior cast by right of his father and religious cast by right of his mother you know which takes precedence star riders will protest this i will lead the fight myself you will do nothing you will support my statement that his body was.

[38:42] That is a direct order from the great council. You will obey it. Yep. As you did our order to end the war. Do you understand? Yes, I understand. Narun doing this to bring all attention to him, doing the thing I was just talking about. You will apologize, Commander Sinclair. In fact, I want, well, okay.

[39:04] So the one thing that I'll give you that might lend a little bit to your theory here about even Narun being like, oh, look at me, is dylan's punishment for him was he had to go to sinclair and apologize uh privately you don't get to do it in front of other people so you're gonna have to do it but you have to do it so you don't get any credit for it and and to reword what i was saying also naroon did what he thought was right by the warrior cast followed the calling of his heart as it were not his soul because his soul we learned later is religious but followed the calling of his heart to do this thing to parade this guy around was it the right thing so here's a question that thing with him at the end is that because of his time spent here with brandmer oh my gosh that's like what's happening right here right now planted the seed for him or there was the seed already but watered the seed that grew over to that's to actually really want to be and be called for religious caste warrior cast there is no higher testimony to a warrior's courage and skill than praise from his enemy i would like to I send that message to your home world in a personal message, a testimony to the Shia elite. You will do this as an Earth Force officer and as commander of Babylon 5. That is a great kindness. We fought long enough. Maybe it's time we started talking with one another.

[40:23] Come on. Prenmer's life was more significant than his battles. Let the warrior caste praise his courage in war and let the rest praise him for what he truly was.

[40:34] You talk like a mingbari. It's so big. Perhaps there was some small wisdom in letting all species survive. To our earlier point that we have made so many times, Naroon showing up and giving a heartfelt, honest apology led to this. How beautiful. Yeah. So good. So good, man. So good. And that right there.

[40:58] I'm glad that Naroon knows how to, you know, shake a hand. Doesn't hate human culture that much. Do you think Talia and Ivanova would be really teed off if I decided to go with the Minbari? In order? Yes and no. I don't need to be a telepath to figure that one out. At least it could become an instrument of great communication between humans and Minbari. Such potential. We suffer a lack there. I can't wait to see this play out over the series. The future in exchange for the past. Mm-hmm. The future in exchange for the past. This is an excellent Sinclair episode. Could be a big help with the Minbari. She goes to live with the Minbari? Maybe you'll learn a trick or two. I could have sworn she went to go live with the Narn. I might do that. Everything in my memory says she went to go live with the Narn. You want it because you remembered Nataf. I won't forget you. But yet once again, we never see her hear from her again. Not even mentioned. I think I want to go the rest of the way by myself. I'm so brave. I can walk 20 yards. Goodbye. Earlier in the chat, someone brought this up. I forget who it was, but it was so brilliant. What actually probably happened is she got redirected from Minbar, ended up on part of the Narn resistance with King Arthur. Or she joins the Rangers. She becomes a Ranger. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[42:10] She was a part of the Underground Railroad with Abraham and Coley. All right. I like that. I think she'll be all right. I think so too. All right, let's read into it. Let's read in all the sexual tension here, Jeff. I'm not exactly polite to you over this whole thing. Well, we both got a little hot, I think. How about if I buy you a drink?

[42:32] Okay, but I go on duty in a half an hour, so it's going to have to be coffee. I see the eyes linger. That was a drink. That's what that was. Hi. Hi. Elisa, there's something I've been wondering. Oh, this is big. I've been to the lens mind. Did you see anything else? Anything unusual? There was one other thing. A word. Crystallis. I don't know what it means. It's a cocoon, I think. Cocoon? That's weird. She shut down real fast when I touched that. Why would you want to hide that? I don't know. Good luck. Paul asks a great question. Do we really regret not seeing her again? No. But there's great story potential here. Well, I mean, in terms of nothing wasted.

[43:18] Music. She winds up marrying naroon's son anyway so brent that's legacies for the second time anything jump out for you you want to talk about any messages that you got this time around that we might not have talked about last time man i really i really thought she went with the barn and not the minbari i feel like i thought it was the minbari because we've talked about her before, just wishful thinking when it came on screen you're like god she should go it'd be so good maybe, Maybe, maybe, I mean, I, I am sure the first time around we talked about, Hey, we fought each other long enough. Yeah. Let's start talking. There it is. Silver platter. That's the whole thing. That's what the whole episode becomes about. Right. Like when Naroon first comes on the station, he's still very, um, oppositional to Sinclair and everything having to do there. You know we even posit that they're trying to restart the war by opening the gun ports and there's probably something to that could be not just you know you explained it well but this is our culture but also we also know um yeah i mean and do we really need to discuss what that means yet again of hey we fought each other for so long maybe we should just start talking yeah.

[43:26] Hi, Naroon.

[44:47] Like that's the quintessential message right there you know get us down let's start talking have that conversation come to that that that place where we can you know be able to court i think that that really ties with the one thing i kind of picked up this time really in the elisa storyline but also with the the the branmer stuff going on but hear both sides or all the sides of an issue and then make an informed decision that's a great that's a that's a great call because what we see happening with elisa is that on full display of what should be happening happening.

[45:22] Between the humans and the exactly warrior cast and between the minbari and the minbari yeah sure absolutely absolutely uh you asked nia earlier to remind you of a thing i think this is a good conversation we talked about the changing in uh like the just minbari culture specifically, is that change in the, in the newer generations because of the blending of human and Minbari souls? Like it was that human influence. No, I don't think so.

[45:51] And the reason is because as you and I understand it, and you can correct me if I'm missing, if my understanding is wrong. And, you know, as we've seen today, there are times it doesn't happen often, but Brenda is wrong from time to time. The, the blending of human and Minbari souls is not really a blending as much as Sinclair went into the past a thousand years ago and created modern Minbari soldiers, modern Minbari culture. And he has descendants within the Minbari culture. The blending of the souls has been happening for a thousand years. It's not something new. Like I know Lanier says, we've noticed we have been depleting and all of a sudden we're seeing our souls being deposited into humanity. When you and I both know that's, that may be how they interpreted that in the moment. That's not what it is. Sinclair is Minbari. Yeah. Like I said, Sinclair is Valen. Like you said, like that's what it is. So no, I don't think that's what it is because this has actually been going on for over a thousand years at this point.

[46:54] And if anything, it's that that DNA has become so separated. And see, here's the thing. Culture and values do not depend on DNA. It doesn't. Whether or not Sinclair is there or not does not really impact that too much at all, or at least it shouldn't. Um, I would say it's just, it's a, it's a degradation of their, uh, value system. And what happens Jeff, when you stop concerning yourself with others and you turn your internal focus on yourself, that's, that's what it is to me, because I think that's what we, what we decided is really happening with the Mimbar with the Mimbar as a whole is their downfall is that they're really, they're, they're focused more on themselves than they are anything And not themselves as a society, but themselves as this cast, that cast, which is so antithetical to their culture, which is supposed to be all about serving, which is about other folks.

[47:53] I, I'm with you, but I think it's really along the lines of what, what has happened isn't, it's not the soul thing. It's when you profess, somebody once said that real culture is the gap between what you say your culture is and what you tolerate happening. That's your actual culture. And so if we say, oh, the greatest, highest honor there is, is serving. Also, we're super corrupt. We're super self-important and basically awful. So the gap between what's tolerated and what is said is vast. And over time, it's just become more and more apparent to where the generation now is just like, yeah.

[48:37] Yeah it's what we're experiencing with like gen z now is where they're just like yeah i reject everything but you guys are doing because you're full of it like this does i i i think that's you know there there's a certain i've noticed that you know because my my not just gen z gen alpha you know which which our children are a part of jeff and and i'm seeing a lot of that a lot of that like are you guys crazy what what's wrong with you like seriously this makes no sense like Like, what's wrong with you old folks? Like, this makes no sense. And I could give so many examples. I'm not going to because I don't want to get into it. I do want to get to the second part of Nia's question here because I think it's great. Are Dylan and Naroon falling victim to that self-involvement? Jeff, I'm going to go with you on this one. I think Naroon is too. I think, like, if you look at the great council is full of a bunch of boomers and Gen Xers. Dylan is the millennial coming in. Yeah. You know, and, and Naroon is, is he's kind of that Gen X or a little bit who is kind of, he's, you know, he's get off my lawn kind of a guy, but he's, he's definitely about it.

[49:47] You know um yeah i i do think that they are falling victim to that self uh to that self involvement however i don't think that either one of them are so far removed from their core of being about service of other people because naroon ultimately is still about service delin for all the faults we can give her is ultimately still about service willing to sacrifice herself lanier for it lanier falls victim to his own personal preferences about stuff and his own self-involvement and he says the rangers are a calling of my heart and we all went dude come on no way dude no no uh and then uh nia nia asks uh if i'm full on science over religion um i don't believe that those two things necessarily are at odds with each other there are two sides of the same coin.

[50:35] And uh and i'll dump it in i'll the science of it and i'll put it fully in the religious bucket minbari believe that we are all manifestations of the universe that's what our soul is and if that's the case human minbari pakmara centaurite and aren't we're all manifestations of the universe it's all technically the same soul dang look at you you just sounded buddhist there for a minute man i hope brent that you have reached the state of zen because you're ranking the episode this week you are i am going to read off the top five that we have right now and see where you're going to put this and it's important that you give this some thought because this is completely objectively correct and accurate and number five believers and number four and the sky full of stars which we got a little flashback to this week and number three the war prayer another dc fontana original death walker in the number two spot and signs and portents in the number one position brent where is legacies going to land i i'm having a hard time with this one jeff because if this was a show that was full of a lot of standalone episodes.

[51:39] This would be a great episode you've got it you've got a missing body we're going on a search for the missing body we're we're meeting naroon you've got that whole kind of stuff i do feel like this episode is one of those that really would have benefited from what we would think of a swap in the a and the b plot like to me the a plot of this episode was the whole thing with elisa the the little girl and naroon was the other thing that happened on the station at the same time i think if they would have but honestly i think when i think about it the two seem to be given almost equal weight put more weight on the naroon on that situation and then let the elisa thing serve the purpose of highlighting the the struggle that they should actually be be going with um but ultimately i still find this episode in many ways inconsequential to the rest of the series it does does that make sense but i think it was a good episode on its own but it's, There's some good pieces to it, but I just, it's not going very high for me on all of that. When I think about what are the important episodes of the season, you know what I mean? And so where I'm really looking at is, uh, when I think of episodes that are important to the overall story, episodes that are important to the season and episodes just out of pure enjoyment.

[52:56] And I'm looking, I'm going, you know what? I really enjoyed parliament of dreams.

[52:59] I loved born to the purple, right? Minute on the firing line was a good episode straight out the gate and then we have eyes and then we have mind war and then we have infection and soul hunter those episodes although elevated in our in our ranking still not great and i find this one right there at the divide between the two good episode i actually liked watching it also not that super consequential and i i like what these other episodes did a bit better so this jeff is going to be our number 11 our new number 11 uh midnight on the firing line is at 10 eyes was 11 and it's going to fall right in between midnight on the firing line and eyes of the the two weeks of 11s on our hands yeah yeah we're staying right there in the midland part of the whole deal so nice well brent that's going to tie a bow on legacies for us next week big announcement for everyone there's been so much chatter uh here amongst our council chambers on our instagram our blue sky accounts uh youtube everywhere the big question brent it's a two-parter coming up a voice in the wilderness wow are we gonna do it what are we gonna do we made a lot of waves the first time around with this one we sure did so we did we made waves one time and we're gonna do it again probably making waves again this time yeah but not not in the way that they think or at least hopefully not the way they think here's what here's what we did we.

[54:27] Came at the end of it last time and we received so many you should have done them together should have done them together should.

[54:32] Have done them together we said back then and i think we were correct then and we're correct now jeff back then for a first watch.

[54:40] In a podcasting situation do the first episode pause take accounts of where you are and then do the next episode for all other subsequent rewatches all everything else we're doing them together we're gonna stay by that particular rule jeff we are doing voice in the wilderness parts one and two together.

[54:58] In the same episode next week because that's really the way it should be done in fact jeff i actually remember what i said at the beginning of our second episode you we could have skipped the entire first episode we got everything we needed from the previously yep we did on five you got everything you needed out of that one thing so maybe we just start with voice in the wilderness part two and go from there i don't know no we're going to do both episodes together next week voice in the wilderness parts one are do you remember brent what you predicted part one of a voice in the wilderness was going to be about i actually remember what i predicted both parts were going to be about.

[55:34] But I'll just go with part one because that's what's going to lead us into it. I said it's just going to have a lot of religious overtones. Somebody is preparing the way. John the Baptist is what this echoes to me. As a voice, you know, as the voice of one in the wilderness, the voice of one in the wilderness who makes way of the path of the Lord, right? Makes clear the straight, straight the path of the Lord. So that's what it really said to me. I said it was going to be a Bambari episode with a prophet warning of a coming war is what I thought it would be. I made a prediction that we're going to hear a handful more times throughout this series. A voice in the wilderness, Brent, is going to be the great egg. Call back to believers.

[56:10] Those people, the parents are going to get their comeuppance. Like, it's all going to come to a head. The most important story in all of Babylon 5, the great egg, will continue in a voice in the wilderness. There you go. There you go. You know, Paul over here is saying that give him an inch, he'll take a mile. we should actually delay Babylon squared until we go to war without end. I don't hate the idea though. No. First of all, I'm not doing three episodes in a row. I love you guys. I'm not doing three episodes in a row to there's a wait. Yeah. There is a long here. It's thing. And Texas analyst. Like is so right. We really wanted the great egg to be a thing very badly. I still do. I still do. I, I think honestly, I think everything that we're seeing happen here is actually happening within. Right. It's all contained. You know, like you remember at the end of men of men in black when you zoom in and you really they they zoom out and you realize that we are our whole galaxy is just like the ball on some cat's necklace or something like that or somebody's playing marbles with it i think at the end that's everything that's happening here you just zoom out is actually happening within i want to propose something brent.

[57:17] Um, we need to carve out some time, but I mean, this is important. I think we can do it. We should make an animated feature telling the story of the great egg. Yes, we should. My question is who's going to go to animation school to learn how to physically do that. It'd be that hard. Let's just do that. Also, we have so much time on our hands. We can do that with the other animated series that we've come up with the last little while. Brent, I'm going to wrap this bad boy up. This has been a fun episode. Enjoyed hanging out with all of you. thanks for being here with us. It means the world. If you haven't already do the stuff, right? Subscribe, like, rate, all this stuff. The one piece of action that you can do, like everyone has their call to action, right? And the one I want to put out there for all of you that really makes a difference for us means the world for us. It feels so good when we see this, share the show, right? Share this show with people out there who either already love Babylon five or need to be introduced to this incredible show, just like Brent and I needed to do all those years ago. So with that, I am going to, yes, Brent. What's up? Jeff. Listen, so as we go out on this episode, I just, for the record, I want to say you were absolutely W-R-O-N-G wrong. Eat it. Bold statement. What was I wrong about? Dude, John Vickery's performance here as Naroon was stellar.

[58:41] There's nothing more annoying than when Brent is right.

[58:48] Jeff. Diplomacy. Diplomacy Brent?

[58:52] Music.