Sept. 19, 2022


Did Ivanova Take This Too Personally??

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Jeff and Brent dream of serving as telepaths to the Minbari. And we see a textbook, perfect apology in this episode.


Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin, and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veterans star Trek podcasters watching this show Babylon five for the very first time.

And we're searching for star Trek like messages. We're applying that lens, that filter of how you analyze and watch science fiction to this show. And we're trying to decide, should we have watched it 30 years ago? But at the same time, we will also tell you this is not a star Trek podcast. We don't wanna talk about star Trek that much.

We wanna talk about babble on five cause babble on five is awesome. Yep. And holds its own. That's the show we're watching. . Exactly, exactly. But. As it may be. We may pull in a lot of references from a lot of other shows, not just star Trek, but star Trek is the one that tends to come to top of mind for Jeff and I, because we are overanalyzing that show as well on other podcasts.

So for that, we've decided to Institute a little game that Jeff and I like to call three, the rule of three rule of three. That's a bad name for a game. J I like Jeff. We need, we need a good game name. Any ideas? Trek three in your out. I don't know.

free Trek. No Moss. I, I don't know. Um, Trek, no babble. There you go. Oh, okay. Okay. A track, no battle. That's if that's not a podcast name, somebody needs to start that podcast. You can have it. That's our gift Trek. No babble. Yeah. You guys take it. Go ahead, Jeff. And I already have our own anyway. Um, uh, Shoot, Jeff, you're gonna have to edit this out later.

What I will, I'm happy. What are we talking about? Oh, rule of three. Here's the rule of three guys. Uh, we're only allowed to make three star Trek references and it starts right now. And Jeff I'm counting any reference whatsoever that you make in your recap. Usually we let that one slide, but it starts right now.

Any star Trek message, any star Trek references, and you hear this sound and that's a strike. You only get three of 'em for the whole episode, and then you can't use it. You gotta squirm and find a different way to talk about your example of what you're trying

Jeff: to say. One of my favorite things or the people who on Twitter or emails or YouTube comments buzz themselves when they make references.

It's pretty cool. But Brent, we have a five star review. Oh yes. This review is on apple podcast. It's from T S F 76. And TSF 76 says Babylon five is one of my favorite series of all time. And for reasons I can't yet describe as I'm avoiding spoilers. Thank you. It had a huge impact on my adolescence and young adulthood as a lifelong Trek fan.

I absolutely love hearing fellow truckers and joined B five. This podcast is not only the best of both worlds. It's a fun way to revisit our earth force heroes, ambassadors, and well other characters who will soon visit our last best hope.

Brent: And I guarantee you everyone who visits our bad guys for the episode, because that's how it works.

That's what the opens are. So Ts Ts

Jeff: Ts F 76,

Brent: Hey, TSF 76. I would love to ask you to do something. Would you please email in and let us know without spoilers? How Babylon five had an impact on you as Trek fans, we often hear about how star Trek literally has saved people's lives or how it's inspired them in their career choice or whatever it did.

But I've never really heard about that, honestly, about any other show. So I'd love to know without spoilers what it was that Babylon five did for you, that inspired you as a kid, uh, you know, coming up when you were

Jeff: watching it, you can email us at our website, Babylon five It's the number five and the word first, his little contact button there.

Just, yeah, I would love. And if it, and if you're okay with it, we'd love to share your story if you're not okay with that. We're okay with that too. Brent, we have another five star review who is who? This time, this one from Shlock 42. On apple podcasts, shell lock 42 says as a seasoned B five fan, this is amusing and insightful to hear.

Thanks shell lock.

Brent: Jeff. I'm gonna start using that. We are amusing and insightful to hear. I'm gonna

Jeff: tell my, tell my wife that

Brent: Hey, babe. You know, I'm amusing and insightful. It says right here

Jeff: on the internet, right there on YouTube. Back on our death Walker episode, I had to pull, this was such a, like this one really hit me.

I was such a great episode. Uh, okay. So to, I think death Walker so far is one of our most popular episodes and it was just a

Brent: great episode. Yeah, no, I think it is our it's our most viewed episode and, and probably downloaded you have those numbers on the, on the other side. Yeah. Yeah. It is currently our top top rated, uh, uh,

Jeff: Episode.

Yeah. Says a lot about the quality there, but this one dominion spy, dominion spy on YouTube said for what it's worth, I think YouTube are ready for immortality. Isn't that? Cool. Nice. Ah,

Brent: I got one more. I've seen enough. Although I gotta tell you I've seen enough, uh, shows out there. I don't know if I want immortality, right?


Jeff: I, I agree. I, yeah. I welcome a cold embrace when it's time. When it's time when it's time.

Brent: Yes, please.

Jeff: When it's time and hopefully it's like in like quite a while, right? Yeah. One more on Twitter. You can follow us on our Twitter at Babylon first, but Norman Lao at lounge lizard. Hey, I know that name.

Yeah. You should know that name. I Mike count what's up Norman? Yeah, we'll say hi to Norman. I don't know if we'll tell you he's from a great podcast. Um, I don't want to, should I blow in my references? I feel backed into a corner here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna Norman Norman for you for you. I'm gonna do it.

Norman allows co-host of arguably the biggest star Trek podcast out there. Mission log God. That's how much I care about you, Norman. Like that's I, I only got two left and I am looking at my recap to make sure I'm gonna be, I don't have to do any edits, but he had a great comment on, on Twitter when he said lado and Jaar were so fully realized by Peter and Andreas right out of the jump gate, which gave them so much room to move past, figuring out their respective characters and move right into nuances and layering.

They had the best B five character relationship, hands down, period.

Brent: So far, I agree, Norman, a hundred percent, like, I mean, Jeff and I talk about it every time they're on screen, whether they're together or they're apart, they chew the scene. Like they are the scene. And, you know, today's episode was lawn and Ja Caras, although we did get in the Toth, um, this is great, always great.

We were, we were Kar and lawn list, which just is always sad. But yeah, we, we love it. We're, we're some big lawn and, and Jaar fans here, you know, one of my favorite things about speaking of that relationship, cuz it comes directly from that. My new favorite gift that I try to send as often as I can is do you remember back during the episode?

I wanna say it was grail. That was the one where, um, Jaar was looking for the flower mm-hmm and lawn had it and he was holding it over his head. It's it's that scene where Orlando like goes into the elevator and he is waving like this. Like I love this gift. it's so good. It's so, so I try to use it every time I can cuz I know what it means now, right?

Jeff: Yeah. Well he was waving cuz he couldn't couldn't hold his fingers in a different way. Cuz it was network TV. Yep. Right, right.

Brent: It's so good. And it sure. Thanks Norman. And everybody else who's commented. Do we have any more? That's all

Jeff: I've got for this week. Okay. We love getting them right. YouTube, Twitter, our website.

Just send them in. We love sharing them on here. And if you want to hear our, our favorite drop. Oh yes. Five star review on apple podcasts. We'll get you one of

Brent: those. There you go. Jeff. I have something that I have to share. Oh, okay. So one of our listeners, uh, sent in, um, some information this week to me and you know how like I've for weeks now I have been on the, I don't like Sinclair train.

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. And I mean, I think we talked about last week, like, I don't know if it's Sinclair or if it's the actor portraying him or what's going on, but it's just not okay.

Jeff: Right. Yeah. It's been not good. And you've been pretty clear on yeah. On the acting in there.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. I kind of make fun of him a little bit on some of my, my reaction videos and stuff.

So anyway, this listener reached out and in, in a non spoiler way, which I really appreciate. Thank you. Let me, in on some information that, uh, I think is worth sharing, uh, that apparently during a, particularly this part of the season on forward mm-hmm , the actor was going through some really bad mental health stuff.

Oh. Um, and I, I believe they said something like, even, even like paranoid schizophrenia or, or some, like, it was really bad. Um, and there was something about like, they kept it a secret and then like, JMS shared it after the actor died. It, and that was actually the actor's wishes. Oh, wow. To do that. But anyway, there's, there's all this stuff surrounding it.

Now he didn't tell me anything that happens going forward, but he did say that particularly during this time, that's what the actor was dealing with. Wow. So that was pretty heavy. Yeah. And so, first of all, uh, you know, I'm a big believer that when you do something you make amends in that same forum. So since I have said stuff here, I'm going to say what I'm going to say here.

Uh, if I've offended anybody and my comments about Michael O'Hare, I'm really sorry. And, uh, that was never my intent. Like, like it really was like, knowing that that's a thing, uh, that really was, was not my intent, uh, and going forward. Well, I think it's absolutely fair to discuss what's happening with the character of Sinclair.

Uh, I know for, at least me personally, Jeff, I can't speak for you, although I know UL enough to say you're gonna do this too. I'm just gonna forego talking about the acting side yeah. Of, of, of the whole thing and just understand that that's a thing that's going on, um, with him. But, uh, so anyway, uh, again, I don't know what happens going forward.

I don't know if he gets over it or, or what happens, but, uh, you know, the, the thing is like I could go forward and, and just kind of keep pretending, I didn't know, out of ignorance, the way that the original viewers didn't know mm-hmm, what was going on. But the fact that we are recording this 30 years later and somebody reached out and said, Hey, just so you know.

So that being said, uh, so thank you to the person who reached out and said that to me. And yeah, that's just where we're going.

Jeff: Brian. Thanks for, I have a lot of feelings right now and , and I'm kind of sorting through 'em. I I'll tell you what's on my mind right up front and we're, we won't make the whole episode about this.

I mean, I, I feel like, I feel like I could, um, but I mean, for, for somebody to lead role, right? On a, on a, on a show, I mean, clearly, I mean, this Babylon five was not a premier, like Fox ABC, you know, whatever show, but it was a big deal show and it was a big deal show to the people that are, that are listening to us right now.

And for someone who's the lead of that, to be struggling with mental health in a time where you did not, like, he probably couldn't tell that he probably couldn't tell anybody. Right. He's probably suffering and yeah, my mind's going a lot of, so I guess, I guess what I'll say is I agree, Brent, we, we can talk about Sinclair, um, hands off on, on Michael O'Hare through this.

Yeah. I also kinda want to get on my platform and I just wanted to tell people that if. Now's not 1994, right? Mm-hmm . So if you are struggling with your mental health, there's a lot of things you can do to get help. And I'll put myself out there. If you just need someone to talk to or anything, you can, you can get me on the Twitter or the, whatever my personal Twitter is at Jeff T Aiken, feel free to reach out, um, your mental Health's a big deal.

And, uh, yeah, no, thanks for sharing that.

Brent: I appreciate it. And Jeff, if I could, if I could add on to that, uh, particularly to those who are of our age, Jeff. Yeah. Who find themselves, you know, uh, in their forties, maybe their fifties, late thirties, wherever, wherever you are. And if you suspect something may be happening as I did about a year ago, um, please, please schedule with your doctor.

You call your primary care. That's all you gotta do. Call your primary care and just say, Hey, I need to talk and they will help set you up with whatever the right next step is. Also kind of in the same vein of what Jeff just said. I know what I needed when I was dealing with this a year ago for the very first time getting diagnosed with clinical depression was for me.

Um, I needed a stranger. I needed somebody. I didn't know. I needed somebody who didn't know me. And, uh, there was somebody within the star Trek community who was willing to, uh, just tell me their experience and, and help me like with what, what the right next steps were. And, uh, for that person's privacy. I'm not gonna shout 'em out, but, uh, I'm happy to be that stranger for you guys out there.

If that's your case. Um, at Brent Allen live on social media, Jeff can be that stranger for you. Uh, but whatever you do, even if you suspect, maybe it's not, but if you suspect, please just get help.

Jeff: Yep. Well, thank you. That light notes. Yeah. Thank you. And thanks to the listener that shared that it's really yeah.

Important. And, and I just wanna echo again, Brent said, I'll say it as well. I apologize. I'm sorry. If anything, we said impacted anybody. Yeah. Okay. Well let, just now we know. Yeah. So, you know, we'll just pivot in

Brent: second. Sure. All right. Well, here we go. In today's episode, we are before you, before yeah. The episode legacies and Jeff, while you, and I may have just watched this like 10 minutes ago, why don't you tell the folks out there who haven't seen it in a while, or maybe the people who were just listening to us anyway, who've never watched the show at all.

Tell us about this episode.

Jeff: Well, this is another one from DC Fontana. So, uh, this is a dense one, a young street urchin from down below Alisa den does a little shoplifting and gets hit with a mind burst. It's kind of like. Puberty for a telepath that develops that, uh, talent later in life. Did, uh, did I just have a ding happen?

Did you hear a ding? I'm sorry, I'm gonna do that whole thing over again. I didn't just so you know. Well, there we go. Now I just said that, like, I just, I added work to myself for editing. Sorry, YouTube. Mm-hmm

Brent: Hey, YouTube. You know, we always talk, you get the unedited version. Yeah. This is the unedited version.

Like Jeff will clean it up and make it good for the podcast later. This is the unedited you got behind the

Jeff: scenes. You get the good stuff. All right, here we go. Yeah. And the bad stuff. Yeah's another one from DC font Tana and yes, that means it's a dense one. So young street urchin from down below Ali den, she does a little shoplifting and gets hit with a mind burst.

It's kinda. Puberty for a telepath that develops the talent later in life. Well, Talia winters remember Talia the telepath. Yeah, she's around and Ivan's there too. And they both help her out. And the battle for her soul begins, Talia's prepping to, uh, ship her off to Sycor while IVA takes on the personal mission of finding her any other option by any means necessary, holding her for shoplifting, selling her off to the Narn and meeting with the minbar are all on the table.

And speaking of the minbar, the military leader that almost took them to victory over earth has died. Shy elite brand me's body is on a war cruiser and is touring the galaxy as a monument to war. Elite Naroon who appears to be a graduate from the Benza school of acting, by the way, is leading the cruiser and seems to be itching for any reason, to get into a fight with Sinclair and the humans, the viewing ceremony begins and just like Vincent Vega opening Marcellas Wallace's briefcase.

All we see is a little light shining outta the coffin, but this time we are not cool. No, we are not cool at all. You see brand me's body is missing and this, despite the fact Naroon, wouldn't let anyone except for his minbar soldiers stand guard. There Garabaldi launches a full scale investigation that takes him to net.

Some carrying eaters or Pak, Mara scavengers and others during the investigation, Dalen shares with Sinclair that Bramer was religious cast and became a war leader because of the holy war against earth. That started because of the murder of Duco. Remember Duco from that soul Hunter's episode. Yeah. I'm honestly blocked most of that one out too.

Well. She also shares that it was the religious cast that issued the surrender order. And to this day, there's a rift between the casts over that the investigation turns up nothing but Alisa den remember her well, she meets with Thelen and learns what it means to be a telepath with them in Barri sounds pretty sweet, but she reads the lens's mind and sees what happens to brand me.

Thelen Thelen stole the body and cremated it. Sinclair confronts her. She says she was fulfilling ER's final wishes. She comes clean to Naroon about it, who has been threatening Babbel on five, and even even got into a fist fight with Sinclair, but they agree to tell everyone that his body was transformed and branders a God now.

And by agree, , I mean, that spoke for the entire gray council and ordered him that this is what's gonna happen. Naru, apologizes to Sinclair, and he finds a new respect for him and even thinks that maybe just, maybe they were right to not eradicate humans from the universe. Alisa decides to skip out on Cyco and agrees to ship off to the minbar.

But before she does, she shares a word with Sinclair, a word that is such a big deal. Thelen blocked her from her mind as soon as she saw it. And that word is Chrysalis. Now, Brent. What did you think of legacies?

I can't hear you. You're muted or something.

Brent: DC font is awesome. Yes. Oh my God, that she is, I, as soon as I saw that name and, and I, like, I make it a point to check out the writers now, um, as soon as I saw that name, I, I lost it cuz like you just just know it's gonna be a good episode when she writes it, you know, it's gonna be thick, it's gonna be full.

It's gonna be plot heavy. One of the things I really liked about this was usually JMS so far, at least as we've experienced, like he tends to save the, the big pushing the plot forward episodes for himself and he kind of farms out these other episodes to, to other people. But I feel like this was a big pushing the plot forward kind of an episode, even though it wasn't necessarily the main theme of the episode, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm um, but I mean, Gosh this episode. I, I, I mean, it's, it's a detective story at its heart, right? Like that's, that's what it is. And through that plot device, we, we found out and again, got some more questions, but we got some more answers about the Mbar and the great council and what happened with, with Sinclair and, uh, there's this whole rift between, uh, Talia and Ivanova that we really haven't seen since the first episode, midnight on the firing line, right?

Like, yeah. Like we haven't really seen it since then. And all of a sudden it's come back and it's a thing and, and, oh my gosh, it just, I, I can't say that I loved this episode, but I really, really liked this episode. I liked what it did. I liked where it went. Um, There was just some neat stuff in it. And frankly, I don't, I don't know that I have a ton of notes because I was just in the episode.


Jeff: How about you? I, um, I didn't like this one. Whoa. Yeah, I did not. I found it hard to watch really. Um, yeah, and I, I can't, I can't describe it. So I watched it the first time and I just, as I was watching it, I just had a feeling, I don't know something and I just mm-hmm it was uncomfortable. And I thought maybe it was just maybe the way I was watching it, you know, where I don't know something.

So when I watched it the second time and really started taking my notes on it, same thing. And I think, and this, I don't know, it's, it's, uh, kind of a petty note after what we just talked about a minute ago, but mm-hmm um, near the end, like Sinclair, Sinclair is only peppered. Through this episode and he is used, I think he's used pretty sparingly mm-hmm , uh, throughout this one, but every time he's on screen, he looks sweaty and uncomfortable.

Like, you know what I mean? Like sometimes like if he drank too much coffee and didn't eat enough breakfast, you know, and he, he had that look and that's kind of how I felt through this whole episode. The,

Brent: he does. I mean, I should say that he does tend to seem to be moist, like yeah. Like to the point that like the, the, the makeup people are spritzing him down before the camera rolls.

Yeah. Is kind of what it looks like. You do see that quite a bit with him, but

Jeff: that said, if I had read this episode, it would've been amazing. I, I think what it did and the, the nuggets that it dropped for us, especially about them. Inbar uh, huge, huge. Yeah. Awesome. Um, yeah, that was good. I, I, uh, I love that in to, I love that we got some NA to, again, it's been way, way too long since we've seen her.

Brent: You know, I mean, I don't know. I like, I'm trying to sit there and go, what didn't I like about this episode? And there's a, like, I, I just, I'm not sure where you're coming with that. And so I'm sure we'll get into all that. Um, cuz this is one of those, like I like the, I like the reveal of this at the end.

Mm-hmm that, you know, here's Dylan, like this is a great disorder commander and whatever she says and then like it's her the whole time. Yeah. You know, and her people and you know, this is one of those rare instances where an, a plot and a B plot joined together perfectly and impact each other. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, so, so good. Um, but even the, the, the pieces that get dropped that for two people like us who analyze science fiction shows the way that we do, uh, there's just a lot to chew on here. And that might be what I'm kind of clinging to. it's possible that I just like it just because it's DC Fontana and that's it.

That could be, it I'll fully acknowledge that. But, um, a couple of things, I wanna point out some maybe just side things that I noticed Mbar ears. Mm-hmm , I've never noticed them before this episode, but their ears are on their neck. Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. Under their weird little now, like under their little, I, I dunno what that headdress thing is.

Yeah. But it's like, yeah, it's just down under the jaw.

Brent: Yeah. Like the makeup people, like whenever they put this thing on, cuz obviously their ears are in normal spots because they're humans playing a role, but they have made up ears down here. I've just never know, like it was so like, I, they were so prominent on Naroon and then when like it flashed back to delin, I noticed 'em on her too.

And I was like,

Jeff: whoa. Well, did you notice too with Naroon? How. He and like all the other soldiers, the headdress, I don't, I don't, I wish I knew what that was. And frankly, if it's not a spoiler, I'm okay with you telling us what that is. Yeah. But whatever that headdress thing is like for Naroon and the other ones, like it was winged and

Brent: it was a different shape.

Yeah. It was a different shape. And I had a note about that, that, like, I wonder if this is a, a difference between the warrior cast and the religious cast. Yeah. I thought that, um, because the lens kind of like comes up into a point and his ha makes like a V or like a w almost. Yeah. Like it's more spiky, like you would expect

Jeff: for a warrior.

And Len does the same as the lens. It's kind of a softer pointier. And so I thought I had the same thing. Oh, is it because like genetically they're genetically predisposed to their cast, but then, then Dylan, like breaks down a little bit where, uh, brander was, um, what he was warrior by his father and religious by his mother.

Yeah. So it's like, you inherit it. But, yeah. I don't know, a lot more depth to the caste system in this one. Yeah. And

Brent: so, and I've got, I want to ask questions about the whole mother father thing here, but what I'm still unclear on is, is that headdress removable, or is that a part of their body? Um, because, and I go all the way back to the gathering where it was like the same color, same tone as their body.

But since then it clearly looks metal. So I'm, I'm kind of to say, no, it doesn't, but is it maybe a part of their body? I just don't know. I like, I haven't seen it one way or the other just yet, but it kind of reminded me of clinging on head ridges just, yeah. And you remember like E like they got really good with the head ridges that various families.

Yep. Like WARF and Alexander had the same head ridges, the, the, uh, D family. They had same, same head ridges, different things like, like, so they. They were cognizant of what they were doing with those head ridges and star Trek. I wonder if that's, maybe it's less warrior cast versus religious cast and maybe is it more familial, but I don't think linear and, and delin related.

So maybe not like, I don't know. I, I, I don't know why I'm so intrigued by the head pieces, but I am, and I notice it every time on they're on

Jeff: screen. Well, I think, I think we're learning little bits about the different races. Like we learned about the Narn and the pouches, you know, a couple episodes ago and which is I'm still like, okay, I still look like lizards to me.

And then in this one about the, the head dresses and then seeing the ears and the fact that they were the same color in the gathering and they change them, leads me to think that they're part of them, like it's a right. A part of them and they just want them to stand out more. Some, they got a couple extra bucks and could do, do the makeup a little better, but yeah.

What do they mean? Is there a status to them? Like there are for the Tari and their, you know, vial soon hair, hair setups that they've got there. Yeah. Mm-hmm I don't know.

Do you wanna talk about the mother, father and cast thing a

Brent: little bit? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I was actually just looking at my notes to see if I had any like stupid references to just kill right now. And I don't, it's really everything else that I have. Yeah. Let's talk about the mother father thing, because we, as you said, we learned a lot more about Mumbar culture in this one.

Very indirectly mm-hmm I might add, and there's, there's this big piece and we've heard it before the warrior cast and the religious cast. And if we remember before, like there's a thing where they should never agree, because if they agree, then it's bad for the whole galaxy. Apparently I don't. You saw that,

Jeff: right?

Yeah. Well, it was bad

Brent: for earth. Very bad. Right. Um, remind me of the mother father thing, cuz I wanna circle back to that after. We talk about this. So here's a question that I have, well, well, let me back up, we learned towards the end that it was in fact the gray council that called off the warrior cast.

Yeah. So the gray council is a part of the religious cast and they were the ones who called off the warrior cast from attacking. And Naroon said something to the effect of that. They decided that it, or he said something to the effect, like the great council was they had decided to that all species should be allowed to live.

Yeah. Mm-hmm like, they were about to wipe off humanity and they decided that all species should be about should, should have the right to live. So did that have something to do with the decision to pull back? I, you know, like I, like, I don't, I don't know, like, am I reading too much into that one little line?

That's I don't so

Jeff: throw a deal. I don't think you are. Cuz if you, we take what we learned, we learned all this in this episode. Right. That Duco was murdered. Mm-hmm the humans earth sees that as a horrible, tragic mistake. Right. But the Menari saw it as an act of war. And that's what led to what we found out here.

It was a, a holy war. I think it was a holy war. It was a holy war. Yeah. And bra me was a high priest of the religious cast and moved over, which I've got questions on. I moved over to be a war leader, a warrior leader mm-hmm and, and led the charge against earth. And I think that that line that I don't think is so throwaway about letting the other species live and that the gray council and the religious cast who declared a holy war were the ones that said, whoa, we're gonna surrender.

But the warrior cast was all in at that point. Right. And so it's, so I don't know, as I see it now, like, and with the stuff with Naroon, Naroon kinda leading the warrior cast, their hope is to like, I don't know, to them, the war ever really ended. Right. You know? Right. Yeah.

Brent: So then here comes the other question that I have, she started ordering him, like she pulled this card on him and all of a sudden he snapped real quick, like through gritted teeth, but still he was like, yes.

Sati to Lynn. Yeah. He coward. Yes. Ma'am Sati. Yeah. Like he bowed to her and stuff like that. Like, you know, it, it just, it got real formal real quick. And so my question then comes, what is it that the religious cast has over the warrior cast? What kind of control is it? Why does this control exist? Because apparently like that's a, they bow down to the, to the religious cast.

Like, do they hold something over them?

Jeff: I think it's more a hierarchy system. So I we're, I I'm making the assumption. I think you are too, that the gray council is religious cast and the gray council seems to be the ruling body. Of the Menari she said, and this is kind of wrapping it to the, the mother and father thing a little bit.

He says he's warrior cast by his father. And she's like, and he's religious by his mother and you know, which takes precedence. And my question there was, oh, I missed that. Yeah. And so she hit that. And so, but I had the question of, is it that religious cast takes precedence or is it that the mother's cast Ooh, takes precedence.

But my, my assumption based on everything else is that it's the religious, religious cast is always gonna be hierarchically above the, the warrior cast. What if it's both?

Brent: Yeah. What if they, they, you know, their culture honors, the mother's lineage over the father's lineage and the religious casts precedence as well.

Jeff: yeah. Right.

Brent: Um, but, okay, so let's wrap this back around to that, because so all of those questions come up like. The, the gray council, the religious cast obviously holds a big, huge sway over the warrior cast, but they're still supposed to be never agreeing on anything. Mm-hmm . So with mom and dad getting together each from a different cast, you get the idea that, that doesn't happen very often.

Yeah. Is this a Romeo and Juliet situation for him? Wow. Like, and is this going to be something that comes back like, is this showing away that they can come together because this guy can have that, like he can live in both worlds. Mm-hmm exactly because of it, you

Jeff: know, it makes him perfect for this holy war.

Right. I'm a high priest and I get this also, I'm this incredible military strategist and warrior. And so I am custom built for this.

Brent: Yeah, I, you know, and I'm, I just want to go back to my prediction from last week about what this episode should be.

Jeff: here it is.

Brent: You ready? Yeah. Okay. First of all, I totally said I totally called out this was Sinclair and the Mumbar totally yep.

A hundred percent, but I also launched a new theory now, honestly, I was kind of grasping at straws and just kind of pulling something outta the air there. And now I'm going to double down on that. I said last week, that Sinclair's part BARR. Yeah. And that's why he was so important. And that's why they pulled him into Lil lead Babylon five and all of this stuff.

What we just see here is what if Bramer and Sinclair are like no elated somehow. No, what if I'm just, oh, like, yeah, like, you know, we're talking like Spock and Cy here or exactly.

Jeff: I'm glad you burned. Cause I was going to the same place.

Brent: I'm just saying, like, wouldn't that be great? Like the two commanders on the frontline are, are brothers like battling it out and right. You know? Um,

Jeff: and that's why they brought him in. Branders like, bring this guy in and the great council's like, okay. Yeah. Be they both had a vested interest. Mm-hmm in Sinclair, the whole war.

Yeah. The whole war was built to bring in Sinclair and set up this thing. I found a reason to back up your claim as well. Oh yes. What is so at the very end, this is my new pet theory. So , and I love it. I'm all in at this point, but at the very end, um, and we'll talk about what Sinclair said that led to this.

When we get to our closing thoughts, I'm sure we both have it listed in here, but Naroon apologizes to Sinclairs Sinclairs says a cool thing about not fighting and talking,

Brent: but I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna interrupt you. Nope. That was a great apology. By the way. It was a perfect. Perfect being forced in ordered to do it.

It was a perfect apology.

Jeff: He was humble. Uh, he said what he did wrong. Um, why he did it, how he's not going to do it again. I mean, perfect. So good. Yeah. So good. He, uh, but then to capital off, he says you speak like a Menari commander

Brent: because you are a Menari. He did, he, oh, he did Sinclair

Jeff: some Inbar they're dropping the little pieces

Brent: everywhere.

I'm telling you. And that's oh, that's what the Chrysalis thing is. It turns you from a human into ABAR or back the other way around. Oh, it,

Jeff: Chrysalis is Sinclair.

Brent: Oh, he is the Chrysalis. Oh.

Jeff: And de knows because that, oh my God, Brent, this is the whole war is the Chrysalis. He is, the whole war was built to bring him in.

Dalen is on Babylon five for the sole purpose of watching for the moment they're ready to cocoon him or whatever. And let him become the Chrysalis that he then launches and emerges as this new, like he has transforms into a God like bra mur. Oh, my apparently did. There it is. Why aren't we wa writing this show, right.

Brent: wow. Okay. Okay. So you took a long walk. There's another question though. We're going to say that his body was transformed. Is that happen? This something that we talk about a lot on Mumbar does it ever actually happen or do they really go steal bodies, cremate them and then just tell people that their body transformed and like, this is a thing, like what's up with that.


Jeff: that was, that hit me. And I think what hit me the most on it was like, cause she's saying it right. Like, oh, I'll just, I was just gonna tell him this, but then she does. And he's like, okay. Yeah. Sounds good. Right. people totally buy this. It works.

Brent: really is the religious cast lying to the warrior cast.

I mean, wow. There's some parallels you might be able to draw there if you, you wanna roll with it. Um, gosh, Jeff. Oh, I love

Jeff: I,

Brent: yeah. Oh, theories coming together. I like it. I like it. And it's

Jeff: totally backed up objectively by everything in the episode so far, no one can prove us wrong. Mm-hmm , you know, until other episodes come out.

Brent: So. I wanna get to the end of this, but I think we'd be better served. We gotta talk about Alyssa. Yeah. Um, before, because I, I think, you know, the end of this is really gonna be the end of our conversation on it. So let's go over, talk about Alyssa. So we get this new girl who really reminded me of a very young Rosalin chow.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that's what I, that was the vibe I was getting from her was a young Rosalin chow, and boy, she felt it to me um, but so she gets this mind burst and like, I serious, like Avan was chasing after her right after she steals this thing. And then Talia looks at her, like I thought Talia like shot something at her too.

I did mentally. And I was like, whoa.

Jeff: Yeah. Especially that she got a, she got a mind blast. I'm like from you, like, did you do something

Brent: right? um, but then she no turns out. It's just, puberties like, that was the moment her powers decided to activate. And I'm thinking back to like Jubilee during the Xmen the first, remember Xmen the animated series back in the nineties.

Mm-hmm like, you know, just, they all puberty just onsets all of this stuff. Um, wow. But this sets up the whole Ivan versus Talia thing, and we really dive back into IVA and her issues with Cyco mm-hmm and Talia. Despite what happened with iron heart who got a shout out in this episode. Yep. Yep. And she's like, don't you talk about him, right?

Despite what happened there, Talia is still very pro psych.

Jeff: Yeah. I had a hard time buying that. I mean, and, and just because the iron, why black gloves. So I, she has them. Ster had 'em har and gray had them. I think it's a thing for Cyco Teles. I think it's a thing. Like,

Brent: is it like, if they touch somebody bad stuff happens to 'em or something

Jeff: it's a way to control?

Well, we, I think, I think in the gathering, when Leeta Alexander went to BR you know, put her hand into CA she took her glove off, like it intensifies.

Brent: Right, right. Or like, it's like a, oh, here's another Xmen reference for you. Good thing. We're not counting these, right. Uh, like, like, uh, with rogue, you know, you touch 'em like you zap, you suck in their life force anyway.

Yeah. Um, I will say that, I think I've mentioned this before, but it was so prominent in this episode. I'll bring it up again. I really like the Cyco badge. Yeah. Like, I don't want to be a part of psych. I don't wanna go sporting that. But the fact that the Cy core badge is the letter sigh. , it's pretty

Jeff: cool.

Like, right.

Brent: That makes a lot of sense. I, if you didn't know what it was, you just think cool logo. But if you do know what it is, like, you're like, ah, that see what you did there. I see what you did there. Um, but anyway, so here's a new lady. Ava's like, I'm gonna charge her. We haven't wrapped up her criminal stuff yet.

Mm-hmm and then how long did it take you Jeff? Before? You're like, this is just, AANA trying to keep her out of Cy. Cor she doesn't care anything for the charges.

Jeff: Oh, four, four seconds. Like it was, oh really? Yeah. It's like a media really way longer. yeah, no, immediately. I was just like, I, I think it was her facial reaction and then it was, um, when Alyssa woke up and she was like, oh, you mean like your mom, like, and she just immediately it's like, yeah, like this is a personal mm-hmm and then she just outright said it to Sinclair.

Right. I have a personal matter. This is not a personal matter. This is a matter of station security. And, you know, and you helping prosecute a criminal. Oh, but it's personal. I had a real problem. I mean, I get why she made it personal. Yeah. But also I, mm. Like I feel like she should be, I don't know. It's weird.

I. Maybe it's not weird given what just happened right. In eyes with everything mm-hmm maybe that's maybe it's close in proximity, but it just kind of felt outta character for Yvan to like pick this kid. This is where I'm gonna fight my battle right here. Right.

Brent: I mean, so as far as the criminal charges, let's be honest, those criminal charges would be a little bit overblown.

This is a juvenile who is doing some low level shoplifting. This is not a, a deal for the commanding for the commander of the station to deal with or the, the Lieutenant commander of the station.

Jeff: Yeah. And if she was gonna prosecute her for any crime, it should be her acting. Right. Uh, sorry.

Brent: I mean, this is this well, like I said, a young Rosalyn child, um, just saying, uh, This would barely even be a blip on Aldi's radar, right.

To be quite Frank with you. Like this is all, this is, go give them to the, what was, what was the judge guy called the,

Jeff: uh, the ombuds, the

Brent: OBU? Yeah. Like just let it roll through that. She's gonna get a slap on the wrist. She's not gonna spend any time in holding cells or anything like that. And she's gonna go right back out there and she's gonna go on the streets.

And I mean, this girl's a Ladin mm-hmm yeah. That's what she is. She's a street urgent. She's, she's a Ladin, those people and, and a 250,000 plus population. Those people exist. It's just a part of it. So is it station security? No. Like, so the, the fact that Ava is keeping that I really, it had to be personal.

Oh yeah. You know, mm-hmm and it's Ivanna was like, I'm not letting this girl go down that path, at least not without knowing what's really going on. I kind of like that Ivano took that on herself. Yeah. Yeah. I, cause it was, it wasn't about station security. She was using that as her like, oh yeah.

Jeff: Excuse it was one of the options, right?

Yeah. It's like, Hey, if I can't do these other things, I can arrest you and I can lock you up and make your trial take forever. So you don't go to psycho or right. But I don't, I don't know. I mean, I, I get it. I understand it. But I also feel like it's ju it just, I don't know, maybe I'm totally off, off base on this, but for her to co come this far in her career is just the first time she's ever run into somebody.

Who's now displaying her powers. And, and she's like, I'm gonna, I'm planting my flag here. This one, this one doesn't go. This might be,

Brent: this might be the first time that she's ever met somebody at the onset of their powers. Yeah. Maybe. And that, and that she has any real ability to do anything about it. It might be, I don't know.

It might. Yeah.

Jeff: I don't know. It just, it, it, it feels contrived to me the whole thing, what I will say though, to get off of Jeff bagging on this whole thing is I really appreciated her creativity in finding other options. Right? Sure. Like especially going to the minbar like that should have been step number one.

Mm-hmm for some reason, for some reason, she went to NATA. That was a great scene though. I,

Brent: I love now. See, I thought, like I got the feeling that NATA came to the girl and IVA didn't know, that was the feeling I got. Cause IVA comes in like what kind of options? This is just treating me and the girl. Yeah.

But what kind of options? Like, you know, that, that was the feeling I got.

Jeff: Well, I felt like if I remember in there, because it was almost like devil and angel on. On Alyssa's shoulders, right. With NATA. Well, you know, we'll pay you like this. They, you know, I guess that was a different scene when Ivanovo was like, you know, they enslaved their enslave, you and all this.

Maybe it was Talia that was with, because there was someone else with, with, with Alyssa when she was in there with NATA. Yeah. I don't think either way, either way she goes there. I loved that scene though, because it was a direct callback to the gathering when right. Jaar was like, listen, we could get your tissue samples or, you know, I could be kind to you and we could we could do this the old fashioned way.

Right. Yeah.

Brent: Right. Yeah. The one way is, you know, it's more time and it's more money and all that kind of stuff, but you know, we'll do it. Yeah. So, but Hey reminder that the, that the NA don't have tele they're the only species without Teles, which I don't believe is gonna be something that lasts. Um, and.

They're still trying to get their hands on Daz, which I think they absolutely eventually

Jeff: will. Yeah, I agree. It'd be weird. It'd be weird if they didn't, they'll find somehow some way to get their eye. I wanna know what she saw in NA Todd's mind. Like she was re repulsed by just touching it a little bit.

So I'm, I mean, I can imagine, you know, all day long, what do you think it was?

Brent: Was it just NATA is generally an evil person and that's what she saw or is it like, did she actually see the home world and the home worlds just screwed up and you don't wanna

Jeff: go there? I think that she saw like death and murderer and you know, I think that NATA and Jaar, NATA, maybe more cuz NATA is like a UN sharpened version of Jaar.

Right. So, you know, or is Ja car's gonna, he, he still just wants to burn your world and carve your bones into flutes. Mm-hmm but you know, he'll work, he'll work the diplomatic avenues and the, the, you know, kinda work around. Natas like, Nope, I got a sledge hammer. I'm swinging it. And I'm gonna burn your home world down, like that's gonna happen.

And I think that's what she saw. I'm guessing.

Brent: Okay. Just you see the person. I mean, that's, that's who NATA is, right? Mm-hmm totally like, we like her, but Natale, Natale. She'll cut you man.

Jeff: She will grab a screwdriver and, or a wrench and beat you over the head when you're a massive war criminal. Yeah, that was one

Brent: of my favorite scenes of the show so far.

Oh man. She beat that girl down. so she goes off, she finds out something about the Ibar and so she's gonna be able to go stay with the Imbar now, which that seems like a much better option, by the way. Speaking of learning about Mumbar culture, this seems really cool. This seems really like, Hey, we could learn something from this today.

Yep. This you talk about star Trek. This sounded in incre. I mean, I'm talking. Season finale of season one of next generation, Bon Bon. Here's what we are trying to preach to you. People who serve others, if they're gonna do that, then we are going to do what it takes to meet their needs. We will provide clothing and housing and food, and then we will leave them alone to do what they're called to do.

Yep. It is a small price to pay for what they do for our society. I love

Jeff: way. That's cool. I love the way they played it too. Where at first, um, Alyssa was just like, well mean I don't get paid for this. And Lynn's like, oh, it is so like, it is so much better. Yeah. Than getting paid. Like not only are you gonna be well taken care, but there's honor and dignity and you will be serving, you know, your FA it was, yeah, that was, that was super cool.

And I think it says a lot that at the end of all of that, she that's what she, and she chose to do that. Kind of on her own, right? Cause her question to Sinclair was like, Hey, you think they'll be upset if I decide to go with them in BARR, she made that choice on her own. I thought that was a really important moment that she did that.

Brent: They let a 14 year old make a choice, uh, a life choice on their, on her own. I,

Jeff: I don't know. What's a, it's a good thing, Dr. Franklin wasn't in charge of who was making decisions, then he would've forced her to do something

Brent: you've forced her into Cyco or something. Um, that was just a, yeah, that was a cool line.

The only question I then have is, so are the Mumbar who do that? Like, are they so altruistic that people don't take advantage of that system? And how do you monitor that? Or do you allow people to take advantage of the system so that you actually get the people that do it for real, right? Yeah. Like you ex you accept that.

Yeah. Knowing

Jeff: that you'll catch the other yeah. Our telepaths in both casts. Because I feel like a warrior cast telepath would be a very different thing.

Brent: Yeah. Are you, can you move between cast? I think so. I mean, a lot of times, a lot of times you're not supposed to. Right. It's whatever you're born into, but, but if you're a high priest,

Jeff: if you're a high priest, well, I don't know cuz I mean, it wasn't clear that he became warrior cast.

He just led the warrior cast. I don't

Brent: know. So little bit of Brent history. I know my family goes all the way back to what is it? 10 61 when my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great. Whatever grandfather was a Cardinal in France, Viking, France, and he got together with the Norman, uh, uh, Charles William, William, the conquer sounds right.

Sounds the guy who came over the channel and like conquered England and brought them all together. Mm-hmm yeah, he was William. The conqueror's like personal Cardinal. He also like commanded William the conqueror's army. And he was, he was known like, to be much better as a military commander than he was as a Cardinal in fact, he got brought up on charges as a Cardinal with the, the, the people for some stuff.

Wow. But that's, that's where my family goes. That's how my family not just came to America, forget that I know how my English people came to England. wow. So you, so I'm just, I'm just saying the idea that a priest actually is also a military commander is not that far fetched to me. Yeah. Yeah. You know, especially if you consider it a holy war, right?

Yeah. This is just an extension of who I am and what I do. So

Jeff: yeah. It makes a lot of sense, but yeah, I don't know if you, I don't know if you're just, you know, Joe average, minbar in the warrior cast and all of a sudden you get a Hanker and you're like, ah, I'm gonna go to the, to the monastery, be, be a monk and do the religious thing.

Like, I don't know if that's even a, an option. I would think not.

Brent: Here's here's another question. Does it say anything about Menari culture that somebody who was born of both cast ascends to the role of high

Jeff: priest? Wow. Yeah. And right at a time we can assume, you know, 10 years ago, 11 years ago is when the Earthman bar war started.

Mm-hmm . But prior to that, you had the, the dil Gar with death Walker mm-hmm and all that, like, there was just a, the, the Narn and the centar

Brent: going at it, a lot of

Jeff: war going on. So it was kind of like, Hey, I, you needed someone who was the best of both. But I think a lot of that, I think it was, I think the brand mur rose from that it was Duco who was leading the charge prior to all of that.

And we

Brent: don't, we don't know. You don't know much about him yet. Like at all,

Jeff: all we know is that the soul hunter didn't get his. Oh, yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Well, we, we learned today that wasn't it, the death of Ducat that kicked off the war. Yeah. Or was it the death of Ducat that ended the war. It

Jeff: started it and yeah. And the human GU Baldy was like, killed him.

Yeah. That's what I, I got it there. They said that the, the, the murder, they said the murder of Duco Aldi was like, Hey, that was a really unfortunate mistake. That was, that was not, you know what, well, mistake or not, it led to this holy war. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brent: So who was deco? Yeah. He of won cast with it anyway.

Yeah. Anyway, all of that. So let's get it down to the end. They, they, we dis we realize what happens with Thelen, she's the one who's behind it, by the way, we see the vision that young little Alyssa got out of her mind. And you see these people, like I immediately went like, is that the great council? Oh, and then like, I'm looking and I'm like, neither one of those two are delin is this.

And they have like these little flashy crystal things, which freezes people

Jeff: that were little trying little pyramids. They were more, yeah. Right. Yeah. And

Brent: they freeze people and like, you could just walk in and like, whoa, that's, that's weird. They flashy thinked them, you know, mm-hmm . Yep. And, um, they took his body, they cremated it and she puts the, the smack down on him.

Naroon and so to fast forward through all that Naroon and Sinclair are meeting they're going through that apology. And Sinclair says a line that I don't think anybody, but DC Fontana could have wrote, uh, could have written I'm sorry. Let me

He says, he says, let, let the, what is it? Let the, let the warriors praise him. As the, the ascended God or whatever that they think he is, and then let everybody else praise him for what he really was, you know? And he goes the man of peace. Yeah. And oh, oh. And he says this before he says, we fought long enough.

Maybe it's time we start talking. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, because there's a, there's an interesting thing that happens. What does it look like when two opposing generals finally meet face to face after the war,

Jeff: right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that was, we got a taste of that with no noon. Wasn't the general.

Right. But he was, he was attached to the hip yeah. To brand me. So this, this was our version of that. And Sinclair. Being able to just say, like at the end, when he said I'll look, I'll, I'll send a message from me as, as commanders Sinclair from the battle of the line and from the commander battle on five, I'll say what a great guy and great leader, this person, this, you would, you would do that for us.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was,

Brent: that was good. You do that too. I mean, I, I mean, Jeff, can you get any more star Trek than that moment, right there to avoid further escalation and to avoid getting back into a war and just to show respect that I have for this person, for who they are and what they've done me as this guy, I'm gonna do that because it's time that we start talking.

Jeff: Yeah. Well, let's Brent. Let's, let's do it right. We're at that point, let's boil this down. Let's talk about the star Trek message in this you've already started. So I'll hand it to you. We, uh, we rate the show how star Trek it was, and that doesn't mean. Like star Trek, you know, it's like, what's the message, uh, hope for the future, the, the, the mirror that's held up to us, the lesson for us to learn, we'll rate it zero to five deltas.

Brent, why don't you wrap up your, uh, your thought there? Yeah,

Brent: I'm gonna give it three and a half deltas. I'll start right there. Okay. Three and a half deltas is, is where I'm gonna go because of what I was just saying that whole, we fought long enough. It's time to start talking. I, the, the whole, like the package that it's wrapped in could be any show mm-hmm it doesn't have to be star Trek.

Like it could be any show whatsoever out there, you know, but to, to go through that, and then there's, most of it felt more like an information dump mm-hmm , you know what I mean? Like, like, let's move this bit along, but to, to see the bit of Mumbar culture, where they're going to take care of those who serve, and there's no concept of worrying about people who are abusing the system.

that is holding up a mirror or, or no, I'm sorry. Not holding up a mirror that is giving us hope. Yeah. For where we could be. We could do this. Yeah. There is a bit of holding up a mirror of going, Hey folks, you are not this. How about we take care of those who take care of us. Yeah. And live a little more altruistically here.

There is that because it, it hell of a mirror to show us what we were not. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Definitely gave us hope of what we could be. But then, I mean, you it's, so captain Picard it's even it's Kirk, it's all of them. Mm-hmm , it's all of them. We're gonna talk this out and I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this step forward, right?

Yeah. I'm gonna make this step. I'm gonna send this letter. I'm gonna send this, this announcement from me, the Le the, the captain of the flagship of the Federation or in this case,

Jeff: You know? Yeah. Commander

Brent: Babylon five. Yeah. So all of that stuff feels so very star Trek to me, that's where I'm gonna give it a three and a half.

I don't, I don't feel like it's just right up that alley, but I it's more than halfway for me. Like it it's there. Yeah.

Jeff: Okay. How about you, Jeff? I agree with absolutely everything that you said. I, I just think, I think that the humility that both Naroon and Sinclair showed to each other in that, well, frankly, that Sinclair showed the whole time, you know, I think he made some really snide comments to Garrett Baldy Orlen, but that's cuz he had relationships with them when he was with Naroon mm-hmm he was respectful.

He, he, he was, he, he showed humility and he didn't have to at any point, I mean he could have turned them away. The, the episode started with that conflict. You know, your gun ports are open. This isn't our procedure. and, and then he was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll play your game. And it was really that whole thing where he saw the bigger picture and the greater, he understood that he in Babylon five are the last best hope for peace mm-hmm

And that meant that he had to kind of step, step down, be powerful by stepping down, if that makes sense. Right. Like, yeah, I thought it was great. I, I loved, um, I said earlier, Ivan of a problem solving, right. You know, like looking for options for, uh, for, for Alyssa. I thought that was great. I loved all them in BARR stuff and how they treat their tele.

My only problem. So I started it at, for deltas. I'll tell you that. Right there started at four. I also have on here three, uh, and a half deltas for mine. I, I kept waffling between three and four and I was like, ah, saw three and a half. But the reason I was waffling and dropped it from the four was the scene where Ivanova was trying to talk.

Alyssa out of the Narn mm-hmm and I just felt that she had so many biases and racist thoughts about the Narn that she was just dumping onto this kid. Yeah. Where she's like, did you know, like they, they, they have slaves and they do this horrible. We don't know that. Right. These are assumptions and she's dumping 'em onto the she's taking her thoughts and her biases and dumping 'em onto the kid.

Right. And, uh, not okay. But I think this was a great, great episode with some great messages that just to me, felt uncomfortable and weird. And I don't wanna watch again for that, that reason, but three and a half deltas. That's what that's that's where I'll put it. That's it for legacies. That's

Brent: it? That's it.

Jeff: All right. We're cool. That's a lot. Next week, we are gonna be watching a voice in the wilderness part one for the first time. So. Poses us with a, normally this is where we play our game and we guess what the next episode's gonna be based on title alone. But before we get there or if we even get there, he's a two parter.

Um, okay. I'm not sure how do we want to do it? Like part one, one episode part two the next week? Or do we want to combine him or, uh,

Brent: you know, Jeff, that's a great question because it, it really depends on what kind of, I don't know, like what kind of

Jeff: like two parter it is. Yeah. Like, yeah, I think because

Brent: sometimes you have a two parter that like, frankly, the two episodes are very different episodes.

They're just connected by cliff hanger. And then other times you have two parters where it's literally an episode just split over two weeks. Mm-hmm , you know? And so I don't know, you know, like, like if we do best of both worlds. You can't do those as a two parter together. Like you have to, like, you've gotta get right up to that point when Riker says fire, and then you gotta stop.

Yeah. And catch the person's reactions and then you go watch it again. Like that's kind of how you need to do that. Pretty much every other two parter throughout all star Trek, you can just watch 'em side by side. So I, I don't know what that is, but here's what I would suggest. And this isn't gonna be good for the folks out there listening to us.

So tune into our social media accounts at Babylon first for more updates. Yeah. But I think we need to reach out to our sort of unofficial guides through Babylon five, uh, John, and maybe even Norman who wrote in earlier, uh, we need to reach out to them and, and we can ask them specifically, uh, you know, they've, they've helped us be able to navigate this.

And I just say, we reach out to them and figure it out. That's a good idea. So what do you think no

Jeff: answer for those who, yeah. Right. Hey, here's the, Hey we're babble on fiveing everybody. Here's the question. No answer. There you go tune in next time and see what happens. right. But based on the title, Brent, a voice in the wilderness mm-hmm what do you think it's gonna be about?

Brent: So a voice in the wilderness, one crying out makes straight the path of the Lord is what that calls back to mind. So I feel like this has to be,

I think this one has to have religious overtones, cuz that's, that's immediately where my mind goes and it's somebody who's preparing the way for something that's about to come. We know we're getting towards the end of the season, right? Mm-hmm and we had this whole thing about the religious cast and all this stuff.

So I think this might be another Mbar episode. Okay. And I think that this might be like a, like a, a profit of some sort comes on the station. and like this person is waring warning of a future war to come or something like that. Or, or like a, like a, a somebody giving you like a, Hey, be careful. Cause this is about to happen

Jeff: or like the station's gonna explode kind of like lady lair or whatever her name was said and signs.

Importance. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Like a professor Tani kind of a thing mm-hmm yeah. Only like legit. Uh, so that's, that's my, you know, but I, and I totally think it's gonna be like some John de Baptist looking dude, like coming in, eating, you know, dressed in burlap and eating his own flies and, you know, uh, all weird and wild and that kind of stuff.

So, oh, I

Jeff: need no birthing. I will stay where the Lord provides.

Brent: Right, right. But I don't know whatever that looks like, but I think it's a Mbar so whatever that looks like in Mbar

Jeff: okay. I, uh, I was gonna say, this is I'm with you on the religious connotation. Totally. Okay. I want this to be the callback to believers and somehow like the comeuppance from, oh, that the Phish people piece to something.

No, no, the, uh, the, the, the Sean, the, the kid that got killed was that believers? Yeah. Yeah. The kid that, yeah, the

Brent: fish, because they have the air bladders. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Fish have air bladders and like all the fish people,

Jeff: the great eggs. Yeah. Yeah. Great egg. Exactly. I think we're gonna be coming back to that.

We're gonna find out here next week, whether it's one or two parts, we'll be here one way or the other. Thank you so much for joining us. If you're not subscribed to us on YouTube subs, subscribe. If you haven't gone onto apple podcast yet and left us a five star review, please do so. And you'll get one of these.

Oh yes. And don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast anywhere else. And until next time.

Brent: Jeff Jeff. Remember we said we were gonna do this a little different now. ZABAGABEE,


Brent: Yeah. You talk like a Manari you know, there's nothing more annoying than Jeff. It's right. It's my first time.