Messages From Earth | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon five is the one series that you get to watch for the first time twice. You know what we're doing?

[1:19] Afresh, a new this time around, Jeff. What is that? What are we doing? We are searching for the sci-fi messages that are contained in Jeff. I'm going to tell you what right now on the front end, we got a doozy in this episode. One from the mouth of the great maker himself.

[1:36] The silver platter. Here's your message. I am. I am. I am excited to share it when we get to that particular part of the show. But those messages, the things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future. Maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, all of that said, this is our second time through the series, which means Jeff and I know everything that's going to happen, which means the whole point of this particular run is so that we can talk about. The show in its entirety, knowing everything that's happening, which means from this point forward, this show is going to be full of spoilers. So if you have not seen this incredible series all the way through for the first time for yourself, this is your spoiler alert. This is your spoiler warning. We beg you stop the show right now. Stop listening to this episode. Go join us for our spoiler free first watch when Jeff and I went through this the very first time join us for that. That's just back up in the feed. I don't want to say a few, a few bumps up, but it's, it's back there. You guys can go check out that if you're on YouTube or one of the other playlists, maybe it's, it's, uh, collected in a specific group there, but anyway, go check that out. And when you're done with the series for the first time, trust us, you want to do it that way. Be spoiler free as much as you can pick this up because I'm going to tell you what watching it for the second time is just as good, if not better than watching it for the first.

[3:01] It is so incredible. And I'm excited this week, Brent. We're watching an episode called Messages from Earth. I remember the first time around for me, this was a peak Sheridan episode. My biggest memory for Messages from Earth is what he pulls in the atmosphere.

[3:22] This is the one where he opens the jump gate in the atmosphere, I think. And it's just like, oh, this guy. This guy's the real deal. This guy to be honest though you know this is the first part in a trilogy messages from earth point of no return severed dreams are really their one story but they're self-contained episodes as well which is part of why we're doing them uh separately but of the three this is the one i have the least memory of um so i'm really excited to watch it again and see the things that that i I don't know that I remember very clearly. What do you remember from your first watch? What kind of question is this? Are you kidding me? What do you mean, what do I remember? What did I think of this episode? Jeff, this is some of the best TV ever. This episode and the next couple that you just referenced, these are the episodes that people that watch reactors on YouTube salivate over newbies getting to for the first time. 100%. And rightly so. So I got to be honest, I don't really remember the differences between what specifically happens in this episode versus what happens in the next episode versus what happens in Severed Dreams. They all sort of run to me together. But what I know is this particular set, this is where we break away from Earth. This is where we get the Londo is part is redeemable.

[4:50] We get that arc. We get Jakar moving all in on the – I think this is where he starts writing the book of Jakar. Yeah, I think so. And it just – explosions, space battles, like, gosh, just great stuff all the way around. One of my favorite things that we do on this show is we say kind of what we remember about it. And then the other one of us says, well, do you want to know? Because we went back and listened to it. And like, sometimes what we remember is very different than what we actually experienced the first time around. Right. This time, Brent, uh, I know what you thought the first time around. Oh yeah. And what's that? Lots of pew, pew, pew.

[5:34] In this one, uh, I really, you really, really enjoyed the episode. Okay. But there just wasn't much to it. Wildly entertaining. It was great. It felt like maybe 25 minutes of story that they stretched to fill an episode and you loved it. No complaints. No complaints. No complaints. It's a, it's a shoot them up, fun sci-fi episode. And you were here for it. You know what? I didn't know at the time that it it's effectively part one of a, of a trilogy. We had no idea. No idea. So I'm just looking at it as a standalone piece without everything there is. It is impossible. Jeff impossible for you for me for any of you out there watching unless this is your first time and if this is your first time why are you still watching we just told you to stop and go get out of here you're not allowed to be here.

[6:24] But for everybody else there, it is impossible to think of this episode in a vacuum. Yeah. You can't, you can't like, we were looking at just what this episode was in and of itself. Self-canneling you, I don't care how hard you try. You can never look at this episode as a single episode of television. Just can't do it. Yeah. It's all encompassing me. I said it was good. Not amazing. I liked the dangling threads were starting to come together. i thought this felt like part one of a two-parter like it was really just here to set some stuff up and we were waiting waiting for the big stuff to yeah come the following week and that's what i was expecting hey after this it's going to be great but this is just kind of setting stuff up, i have quite a few notes for the episode itself from our from our talk but a couple that came up uh that stood out for me was you know it's just funny when we connect dots in our first time watch I'm just like, What is wrong with you guys? How did you not know this the whole time?

[7:27] How'd you not see it? It's right there in front of you. It's so obvious. We were so blown away. Interplanetary expeditions, right? They were there with an infection. They were talking about them. The Icarus is tied to them. And then this Dr. Kirkish is tied. Oh, my gosh. All of this IPX stuff, it all revolves around the shadows and organic tech. Right, right. Oh, my God. It's pretty crystal clear if you're just paying attention. Guys, come on. Jeez. A lot of good thoughts about Marcus. We had a t-shirt idea. Oh, did we ever make it? I really liked the way that they were slow playing Marcus and Ivanova, just as they are slow playing Sheridan and Delenn. Okay. We decided, right, was that, oh, God, the saying for the t-shirts, it's great. We got to make these someday. In a world full of William Rikers, be a Marcus Cole. You felt, this is going to go over great, you felt like the Ministry of Peace thing was just dragging.

[8:26] They just keep saying the same things. They're not really doing anything with it. Your exact quote was, it's time for them to get off the pot. Yes. That's what I have from a podcast listen. The rest we'll do as we're watching. But I had a theory. And that was, in a thousand years, when the shadows attack again, there's going to be some Narn running around, quoting the Book of Jakar. And the shadows aren't going to attack again, so I was wrong. Hmm you gave us a little teaser i don't know if we're gonna get it now if we're gonna get it at the end but uh you my friend scoured the web look for things that jms himself has said about this episode you lifted rocks dug through the dirt you put on the bunny suit and went into comments that people have made what uh what do you have to say on this one if anything there's so much all right Let's buckle up as, as there's just so much, I've really done my best to, uh, filter through some of these. So this, we could do an entire show just on this alone. Okay. Right. Um, so inevitably there's going to be something that I'm going to leave off and we're going to get comments. We're going to get emails. How could you leave that off? Well, I had to pick and choose some things and that's what I picked and choose. But if you want to send an email or a comment and point it out.

[9:45] Have at it. I'm not going to stop you. Right. We may even share it on an episode. So we'll read it. Yeah. Send your stuff in. Yeah. Do it. Do it. But these are the ones that stood out to me as I go through quite a few of the, quite a few of the things that are there is like cut and paste from conversations he was having with people online that they're kind of capturing. So a lot of, a lot of things, but also cut and paste from various conversations. So there's a lot of.

[10:13] A lot of messages in the Lurker's Guide that are all basically, this is the best episode we've ever done. This next set of episodes is the best set of episodes we've ever done. He does reference the trilogy, but he also references it as an 8 to 10 episode mini arc, not just a 3. Really? I could see 4, right? There's chatter in the Council Chambers chat about this. Our Council Chambers tier subscribers are invited to our recordings, which is cool to hang out with us. But uh ceremonies of light and dark is really like the fourth it's the the cap on the whole is that is that what comes after severed dreams yeah i haven't looked at the upcoming titles to sort of remind myself what they are but i did find that interesting i was like eight to ten episode arc interesting interesting he says that messages for my money is so far the best we've ever done though i'll be able to lock more of that down once i see the final cgi he's like It's the best we've ever done if they get it right. Please get it right.

[11:15] He says this. I love this. He's like, pick 10 friends that you know who haven't tried Babylon 5 yet or who are kind of diffident about it. Give them a call. Tell them to give this one a look. And then all you have to do is sit back and wait for the jaws to drop. All right. Jeff, this man was starting the whole reactor craze back before YouTube was even a blip in somebody's eye. Right. There's a lot of talk about the shadow ships and the nature of the shadow ships, which I'm assuming we get over the course of these next couple of episodes, probably specifically in this episode. Yeah. I don't remember what specifically all it is. I don't remember that this is the episode where we get all that. All that information, I think, is just in a cloud. Right. This is the one we find out there's a couple ships within the Earth solar system. Yeah, like the one on Mars and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he says that we get a lot more background on the shadow ships, what they are, how they work. Virtually everything in the show is here for a reason. So if there's an offhand, nah, virtually everything in the show is here for a reason. I say nay nay. He said virtually, not everything. He qualified it. Virtually might be pushing it just a little too much.

[12:38] Anyway, but he says, he says an offhanded remark from Garibaldi in the episode infection, which was episode number four. No, like two. No, two, three, four. Yeah. It was three, four. Yeah. It was right around there, but maybe five at the latest. It wasn't any more than five, but an offhanded remark from Garibaldi and infection about his long struggle out of the Martian desert pays off in this third season episode.

[13:04] Also in a comic book. apparently there's a lot of references to a comic book that has to do with this. Yeah. The comic tells exactly the story that they're going to reference here. Oh, is that what it is? Okay. Uh, that makes sense. That makes sense. Uh, he said, so some of the year three stuff was set up as early as episode two of year one, which was soul hunter and what was designed to look like just a plain old throwaway dialogue. He's been hiding it in there. And that was when other people were writing the show sometimes. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? So cool i love it's funny i don't think that we picked obviously we didn't pick up on some of it i think that we did talk about the garibaldi martian thing because i knew about the comic book what cutting i don't think i read that comic i've read quite a few of them but we talked about that in infection i'm pretty sure our friend andrew says that infection was episode four when it aired but it was the first one they filmed it was which explains a lot talking a lot about shadow ships, I want to just confirm some stuff that we kind of already know, but let's just put it out into the ether and the atmosphere. Okay. Okay. Shadow vessel has one core sentient, meaning human. And once in, it's very difficult for that person to ever get out again. Now we only know of one person who ever got out. Anna. And that was Anna. Mm-hmm.

[14:25] And we are told that while Anna looked like she was something, it really wasn't her. Nothing on the inside. Yeah. Yeah, it really wasn't her. Which I guess makes blowing her up with a nuke a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[14:43] The human, regarding the human inside of the shadow ship, it really, oh, they're wanting to know who was the human inside the shadow ship in this episode. Okay. He's like, it doesn't matter. But I find this interesting. Just some poor schlub who got conned into it. Got conned into it. Now, that tells me that this person had a choice, that this person agreed. That's interesting to me. It is, because what we know with Morden is he made the choice to be their salesperson. Right. I had the impression that it was be our salesperson or we'll turn you into one of these mindless CPUs. Like I felt like that was just going to happen. Right, right. Everybody else didn't necessarily get that choice so much.

[15:30] So this question was asked, would a human be sane after piloting a shadow ship that assumes they could ever get out again? To which his answer was, hey, by the way, that means for Bester. Think about this, Jeff. For Bester. You remember his whole reason for being in season four was his girlfriend, right? Yeah, was that Catherine? I think. Yeah, Catherine, right? Was getting her back out. And she, well, first of all, her brain was already fried. Yeah, well, that's coming up in just a few episodes, actually. Oh it's in this it's a ship of tears that's that's in this one okay i was thinking it was season four okay but it's this one even if he was able to ever get her back she would never have been what he wanted her to be i don't think that she was she was being she and the other teepsicles as they yeah i think i don't i think i called them that somebody called them that um were being prepped none of them had actually gone into shadow ships yet right but they were going to like like and once they got in there then she'd be gone and that's why she absorbed all the stuff in med lab because she's designed to hook up to stuff right right carolyn thank you susan carolyn catherine catherine catherine catherine catherine yeah someone asked this question could someone on sheridan's side pilot a shadow ship or are the ships intrinsically intrinsically evil I love that Could someone on Sheridan's side He goes It's certainly a very good question.

[16:57] Hello Anna Yeah So Jeff the episode There Lies All the Honor Or There All the Honor Lies What was that episode? What happened in that one? Oh, that was the store one. With Garibaldi? No, it's the shop, right? The Bear Ballon Five. Yeah, Bear Ballon Five. Okay. Is that the one where Kosh and Sheridan went below deck and they had like- Saw the beautiful singing stuff. The beautiful moment. Sheridan had to take his pen off his jacket and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Okay. In this episode, Sheridan takes the pen off his jacket. It is a direct, confirm, it is a direct echo, shadow. The the the payoff of foreshadowing that moment and i think i remember us discussing that when we saw that episode yeah if him taking off the thing like to trade that was foreshadowing him having to take that off i don't remember if we talked about that the first time around or not i'm pretty sure we i didn't take a note that we did but i'm pretty sure i'm hearing that and i'm like there's no way i didn't talk about that right right so anyway but just confirming from the man And that, yes, that is what we picked up on what he was laying down is what I'm saying. You know? So yeah, y'all know. He does confirm that what Jakar here is writing will become the book of Jakar.

[18:09] Uh, which is interesting to me that that's something he's already giving away, that that's what that's going to be. You know what I mean? Right. He confirms IPX has been in business in one form or another for about 50 to 80 years. Okay. So not a terribly new company, not as old as you might think though. Relatively new given the first contact and everything. You know, we've got Centauri, figured some stuff out. Company was there shortly after to jump on top of it. He has a lot that he talks about with like the operation of how things work, the allies and the friends and those guys, you know, basically he just says they're kind of running everything while the shadows are dormant. All right. Like they're just kind of keeping things. They have instructions of whenever they receive like a shadow signal, they send something out just to go see or just bring it home or something like that. Like that's really their job while the shadows are sleeping.

[18:58] This question was, oh, he does confirm this. there are no shadow ships buried on narn which i feel like we've had that conversation right yeah because we had we had a lot of thoughts around just because they there had to have been something going on on narn otherwise why wipe out the telepaths he he lets us know how long the shadows have been influencing psychor at this point really about seven years he says okay, at the point we meet this about seven years the shadows have been that is not a new influence thing there. I'm trying to remember, and my timeline is way off, but in the Psycorr trilogy, there is a changing in leadership that happens, and I'm curious if it was following lines up to that.

[19:41] Uh, Santiago, Luis Santiago, he got reelected in that first episode. Yeah.

[19:46] Okay. If we, and we're now in like your three ish, right? If we assume a four year term of president, we're almost about the time when Santiago and you assume Clark was his VP in the first term as well. That's about the time they came in. Yeah. You know, which would make sense because Sycor endorsed Clark as vice president. Someone asked this question. I love this question. Uh how is sheridan going to defeat a shadow ship head to head tune in watch and find out uh jms's response was exactly uh actually what he does is he says the goal would seem to be impossible so how do we do it is there a vulnerability that's been laid out but you haven't picked up on yet so jeff here's the question what knowing what we know what the vulnerability of the shadows being psych or stuff what has been laid out so this would be a good individual podcast episode so let's do a really brief version of it right now what kind of stuff has been laid out to this point showing us or giving us hints that that psych stuff is the vulnerability of the shadows which will help bring down their defeat the narn telepaths being wiped out uh-huh and the fact that jacquard knows all about him he's all like he certainly has history with these folks well we we know that because of the book, yeah, because of the book of Jaquan and the drawings in there, we know that the shadows were on Narn. We know they wiped out the, uh, the telepaths. We know that now, right? We don't know that because we learned it later.

[21:14] Um, pretty sure. Yeah. I think we know it now. What else have we gotten? Lita. Lita and Talia. Both Talia, when she walked by Morden was like.

[21:23] And saw him standing there. Yep. Yep. That one. And, and Dylan just says that over in our chat as well. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. The fact that they're involved with the Psycorps, keep your enemies close or keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer, right? Yeah. But at this point, I don't know that we know so much. They're involved with EarthGov is what we know at this point. He specifically said they've been involved with Psycorps for seven years. He says this. He says, is there a vulnerability that's been laid out yet that we haven't picked up on yet? Is there an advantage we don't necessarily see? He says we have to be smart answering this. How does Sheridan do this? He says humans are at our best when our backs are up against the wall, yet we have to do it ourselves. In the final analysis, nobody else can do it for us. We've got to figure it out.

[22:07] To which I kind of like what he's saying there, because in the end, you know, can I pull on a thread that you and I have long complained about, Jeff? We've always hated the Epsilon three thing. Yeah. I'm going to keep it in my back pocket just in case. And then we never needed it. Right. Really, Ivanova going out and gathering all these first ones that are going to come to the rescue, like all these things that should have come to help. And in the end, we never used any of them. It was just Sheridan going, we're not going to participate in your little thing anymore. So get the hell out of our galaxy. Yeah. Figuring stuff out. In the end, no one else can do it for us. We just had to do it. Like I, like I kind of love, this is, you know, I almost am okay with the idea that he kept it in his back pocket and didn't have to use it just because of proving that point right there. I think that's fair. I can hold on to that. Just to prove that point. That's the only way that I'm okay with it. Cause otherwise it makes no sense to me. Story-wise. I'll even go a step further because the one thing that we did use and people still insist was a big turning point in the battle, though I still think they did like once, but having all the teepsicles set up for, you know, for block. Oh, wait, no, that was in the year of civil war. Nevermind. There you go.

[23:23] Jeff, I'm going to keep everything else for the episode. Oh. And that's long enough. So it's certainly time to get into this thing. Sweet. Let's watch it. Let's go. If you are joining us for the first time, which makes sense This is a great episode to join us on and if you haven't watched this episode before for the third time for god's sake Stop this episode and go watch our first time episode spoiler free get the whole thing Then come back and check this out But what's gonna happen this time that did not happen the first time around is we are going to watch the episode Right here right now. We're gonna pull it up brent and I are gonna watch it together with you And we're gonna react in real time to the things that are happening.

[24:01] We'll talk about the messages that we're observing unfold. We'll talk about the storylines and the stuff that we see connect across the series itself. If you're watching this on YouTube, we're going to go ahead and edit that up. We're going to show that like it's a reaction video that you see on YouTube. If you want to see the full and unedited version of that, you can get that at our Patreon page. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to this on an audio podcasting app, guess what? We don't want to leave you out of all those conversations and we're not going to rehash them later. It's really bad when we try to do that. So we're going to have all that audio in there, but don't worry. There is all of the backside conversation that you want to stick around for because that's really, we're going to bring it all home and we're going to rank this episode too. That's the thing. That's the bee's knees. So Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. Those don't look like real eggs to me. No. From Marcus. They look like fake eggs. The liquid stuff they fold As they make it.

[25:14] Yeah don't feel guilty at all It's gonna be fine, That was a great cut. Dude, Marcus is still a badass, dude. Totally. And I love the juxtaposition of this Marcus and the Marcus from last week.

[25:42] Yeah, Marcus, that's how you get shot, dude. Where is his cloak, by the way? He lost it throwing that pike around.

[25:50] I love Marcus this time being Action Jackson, just throwing his pike around and being all compared to what we saw last week, where he was subtle, hilarious, charming, all of the things. Just like JMS said, he can do it all. So I got a couple of things I want to respond to that's going on in our chat right now from our council chambers because JMS actually directly responds to those. One, Nia says, while I can appreciate that Ivanova doesn't keep kosher as a Jew, I do find it mildly irritating that Marcus would send non-kosher food to a Jew. That's fair, yeah. Which is fair. um and and i've i fully hear what nia is saying that she understands that she doesn't keep kosher as a jew and her her issue is really the second half of that is but what's he sending it to her for anyway um by the way and i'm kind of with because marcus is with it enough like he is he has culturally broadened his horizons enough he should be aware of this although it occurs to me he may not actually be aware that she is a jew she's not like not a thing she brings up that's not first date conversation stuff exactly exactly he may not be aware of it that might be the one caveat to it but jms does say because people are asking like whether she would eat these this bacon or stuff and and he's like she's not exactly what you call an orthodox jew.

[27:09] An orthodox practicing jew she just that's just not who she is don't worry about it um okay lots of people that are talking about this whole idea about whether or not they can get bacon and eggs out on the station.

[27:21] JMS defends it. It's not so much whether or not you can or can't. It's just how expensive it is to get it there. Because refrigeration takes a while to get all that stuff through. Now, there's some different chat about how long it actually takes to go from Earth to the station. And I guess refrigeration in space is hard because being able to get stuff cold enough to freeze in space is hard. Wouldn't you just put it in space? Like strap it to the outside? That's what I mean. Can you just vent the heat? You don't even have to refrigerate it. Just vent the cabin and it's going to be cold as crap in there, man. Yeah. You'd be fine. Um, but I really like what the lens said in a station this big, you don't maybe have like a chicken farm in there somewhere. Like, dude, they, they, uh, uh, they also watched the show, but in severed, they've got a whole like a chicken farm thing. And I don't think it's chickens, but animals in there. When I was in the military, I will not name the country because I don't want to throw any shade, but there was a South American, uh, Navy. That they had livestock on their ships. They would slaughter them for food there. And it was really fun being a submarine and then having to, oh, look, they're literally right there. I can hear the goat.

[28:40] But the other thing, now bacon can be frozen. Okay, not a big deal. I don't think you want to freeze eggs. I don't think so, no. Okay, but here's the thing about eggs, and correct me if I'm wrong. This is where I'm going to depend on my international folks out there. We're the only idiots that refrigerate them because they're refrigerated eggs actually sit out on the counter like in most in the other country out there. We have some stupid washing thing we do that takes something off that they have to be refrigerated, but you go anywhere else in the world and they're just out on the shelves. They're just out on the shelf because that's, they're designed to last like that. Yep. Like that's how they go. So, you know, maybe they don't even need to be refrigerated. You just got to get them. Here's what I could imagine. Trying to get them from a ground to outer space without them breaking might be an issue. Some foam, problem solved. You can shake really well going on. Man, you'd have scrambled eggs inside the shell. Let it go. There's no separating the yolks when they come from space. Maybe that's why it looks like folded egg. Yeah, right. By the time it gets out there. Completely blended. Look, I'm just saying, my neighbor's got a couple chickens in their backyard that they get a bunch of eggs from. Surely somebody on that station's got a couple chickens somewhere, right? If in the hundred, they can hide a baby in the floor plates, you can hide a chicken. Yeah. Come on. Right?

[30:03] Uh-oh. ISN's about to get jacked for reporting that, man. Describing them as attempts to destabilize EarthGov from within and without. Yeah, I think it's shortly after this.

[30:18] Shout out to Christopher Frank and this thing that's going on here.

[30:30] JMS mentioned this is a good one to invite a friend who hasn't seen it yet. Yeah. Incredible exposition here at the beginning just to bring everybody up to speed. She's telling us what's happening. She's watching the video that Keffer took at the end of season two. Like you're getting wrapped into everything here and it's seamless.

[30:50] Hey there's his cloak will she be all right well there's no internal damage or concussion so who are the men attacking her businessmen of a sort they know the right doors to knock on the right words to say you know where i come from you're talking about drug dealers then found captured or killed for the right price why her what'd she do nothing yet keep a close eye on the doctor i'll be back that line horrified us the first time around keep a close eye on her doctor We're like, Marcus, how can you leave her alone with Dr. Franklin with those instructions?

[31:23] No, Franklin's a good guy, man. No. We know that now. No, Franklin's a good guy. We know, but it's like, what are you, are you, he's complicit in the whole thing. So on our first watch, you said, as we see more of who we learn is Dr. Kirkish, is driving you up an absolute wall. Your quote, this is driving me up a wall and you, Jeff, aren't going to get this. But she looks just like dr sam carter but she's too old to be amanda tapping and in the moment, right over my head in the time from the second she showed up on screen i'm like it's it's totally carter look at that good call now i need i don't feel like i've gotten a good face shot of her yet i now i wanna at least that i've been paying attention to like, Right? Look at that. Yeah. Right? That actually looks like that could be Amanda Tapping right there. Two weeks down, six to go before I've repaid my debt to society for attacking Mulari. Again, more exposition. Opportunity divided by my incarceration. Sometimes I even sink. I know. We got a petition. For or against? Based on the sound, they think we're torturing you in here. What?

[32:31] Sit down, Mr. Garibaldi. You know, a true artist is never appreciated. Dude, this is a different Jakar than what we've had for the last two and a half seasons. He's been changed profoundly. You know what's odd? You seem, I don't know, happier in here than you were out there. In here, Mr. Garibaldi, you cannot hide from yourself. Yeah. Everything out there has only one purpose. To distract us from ourselves. What is truly important? There are no distractions in here. You can learn much from silence. I love that so much. The only way to truly know yourself is to sit with yourself. And the only way to sit with yourself is with nothing else going on, right? So I'm a very active meditator. And I think most people who don't meditate have the wrong idea of what meditation is, right? And Babylon 5 doesn't help that, right? When Lanier goes into a meditative state, that's not how meditation works.

[33:33] But it really is just eliminating distractions, focusing on the breath, noticing your thoughts, not engaging in them, but just noticing, no, I thought that, oh, there's that, there's that. But it's really so important to know you. And I'm going to say most people because we live in this loud, loud world. They don't. They don't know themselves at all. I myself, not too long ago, was doing a lot of reflection. I found, like just reflecting on my days, I was like, I add a lot of noise. I'm in the shower, I play music, I'm in the car, I have a podcast or a book or something like that on.

[34:07] Always sound. Why? Why am I always filling the space with sound? And the reality is because I went through stuff and I didn't want, I didn't want to face myself, right? With like just the, the life that I'd been experiencing. And so like I had to make a conscious choice to just shut down the distractions, sit with myself again. And yeah, sometimes it's super hard, but it's always good. It is always eventually good. You just have to do it. And Jakar forced to do it here. And look at the impact it's having on him. I think it's incredible. So one, uh, folks, just in case you're doubting Jeff, he's not BS and he, he really does take this meditation thing to a whole new level. He's got an entirely, at least last time I was at your place, he's got a whole room dedicated to meditation and it's not a small space. Nope. Like it is a significant room in his house and it's weird. It's all trippy in there and everything like that. Like it is, if you go and meditate, that's, that's a room to do it in. And it's a significant portion of this man's house that is dedicated to that. It's his own little personal Kel-Narim spot in there. I got to tell you what. Yes, it is.

[35:09] It occurs to me, Jeff, and I've never thought of this before until this moment. Some years ago, I became a stay-at-home dad, right, for quite a while. In many cases, I still am. But it was just me and the boy when he was one. There were just life circumstances. It was a choice my wife and I made and I drew the short straw and I became a stay-at-home dad. The short straw, wow. Yeah. I'm going to tell him he said that. Yeah.

[35:41] He probably already knows. He'd be like, I don't care. Right. Um it's like i got the better end of the deal anyway uh but you know there is something that is fundamentally hard um particularly to me as a man and the idea of what it meant to be a man that i grew up with oh okay i am man i must leave the cave kill something drag it back you know what i mean yeah and and to the point that i i believe in the very very over generic stereotype that there are certain traits for men, there are certain traits for women that tend to follow in one of those being men. Like, oh, I have to be the provider and I have to be this and I have, and just all of these things. And when that all got stripped away from me and it was just me and the boy and there was nothing else going on. And there's the, the only person that I really had to talk to, like I would go to the store just for that 15 second interaction with the person behind the register. Yeah.

[36:41] Is the only other adult that I had to talk to at the time. The whole reason I got into podcasting in the first place over a decade ago, was just so I'd have other people to talk to. You know what I mean? And while I would not say that things were quiet, it can't be when you have a toddler running around. The distractions that he's talking about, the distractions of life, the job, the work, the responsibilities, the this, the that, and the other. You know, the things that particularly as an extrovert, particularly as somebody with an ADHD mind, And smalling it down to just the task of changing diapers and cleaning the house and preparing meals was enough to quiet everything else in my mind. And I spent a very long time with myself having to figure out who I am and what I wanted, who I trusted and whom I served. Where you're going. Where I was going, right? Yeah. Like it took me a very, very long time. And today when I give that answer of what all of that means, of what is it that I really add to the family, what value did I bring, what did I come to? And it's a fundamental change as to who I am. Could not have had that experience without the quietness that Jakar describes sitting in a cell by himself. I describe it as being the only adult around when there's a toddler running around this house all the time. Yeah.

[38:01] But in many ways it's the same thing. And if it hadn't been for that quietness, I could never have come to that. And it fundamentally shaped me as an adult of being able to know who I am, what I am, where my value lies, and that it's not in all this other stuff. It's in me. It's in you. Intrinsically. It's in me. It's literally intrinsically in me. Um, and that is, that's shaped everything for me. And it's fine. And it takes courage to do that, to, to, to do it, but also to pay attention to it and then to allow it to shape you. Cause I think that some, it wouldn't be uncommon. In fact, I know I experienced this when I first started to really open myself up to me. I don't know if you experienced this or not, but you have a rejection almost of like, yeah, no, I'm this person. This is who I am. And you are like, no, no, you're this person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's why it took me years, Jeff. This was not a, this was not an easy thing for me to get to. It took years for me to get there. Oh yeah. And it's a continuing thing, right? It is.

[39:05] It is. I know for myself, if I go a couple of days without meditating, I feel it. I know that, you know, and I, and there are times I actively avoid it. It's not like, it's awesome and it's great. And it's horrifying sometimes. You know, I think one of the main big distractions we have in our life are our bodies, our bodies themselves, the chemical reactions, the hormones and things that are active in there. And when you can learn to see past that, right. And you think, I'm a very angry person. Are you though? Are you really like get through that and see you without the chemicals that are, you know, that are really causing that for yourself. It can be really powerful and it can be scary. And so I just really want to highlight the courage that it took for you to allow that to shape you, but also as a person who is socialized as a man, as a male in a environment and a geography that we're very focused on what a man is. Here's what a man is. Uh-huh. Like it just took an incredible amount of courage on your part to allow that to happen and to live. And to do it both. I appreciate that. And there's, then I have to turn on and face society. Yeah. Right. But because you do, I'm a dad, I'm a dad. That's, but because you did that work, because you spent that time in it, you were ready for that. Hey, this is uncomfortable society.

[40:24] Yeah. There's a little bit of humiliation here. Embarrassment maybe, but I'm good. I'm totally good with who I am. Here's the thing though. I got to tell you, um, I have had some opportunities in the last decade that have brought me a modicum of minor celebrity yeah and privilege uh to be able to get to do stuff um in various in various places yeah i could not have handled that like that would have really gone to my head yeah you know what i mean right versus being able to say like yeah it's just kind of a thing.

[41:00] You know what i mean like yeah it's not it was it was a thing it blipped it was kind of cool while it lasted and you know it is where it is like it could have really gone to my head, do you know who i am let me tell you yeah like it could have really gone to your head yeah could have that's could have right um and i do i do want to acknowledge and i'm not going to go through each of these individually because it's their own stories and i don't want to tell other people's stories for them it's their stories to tell but i am loving in our council chamber chat that is joining us live here people are sharing their own versions of this story and they're they're they're they're various bits lots of people are introverts and they're talking about how this happens and other people have other you know past issues and stuff that growing up in silence and stuff very very cool anyway it is silence getting the science because being busy all the time i think this is what the busyness can keep you from actually getting in touch with yourself absolutely in whatever way that Jeff it's meditation and a really tripped out psychedelic room sometimes with some psychedelics, for Brent I needed the busyness of a toddler but the lameness of what that is to be a stay-at-home dad to quiet my own mind enough, I wouldn't recommend it for everybody, but I do recommend doing the work. I recommend a toddler to nobody.

[42:21] Let's get back to this. And what have you learned? I'm writing it all down right here. The war. Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. Andrew says, do you know who I am? I am John Braddock Chuckle Nuggets.

[42:38] I am he. all of norn are mistakes and what must be done to correct them i expect to have it finished by the time i'm released can i see it i'm sorry this man is acting with such stillness and bringing it and bringing it he is his face is like he's keeping his face half in shadow doing nothing but talking and oh my god he's killing it watch jerry doyle though and he's all shaking his head and bouncing around and having his thing. And Andre Casuas is just nothing. And he is killing it. No offense to Jerry.

[43:17] Killing it. You pointed this out. This is where I was going to go too. The lighting as well between Jakar and Garibaldi. There's such stark differences between the two. And what we have is someone in Garibaldi who we know is a troubled individual. And Jakar is finding real peace. But still emerging from that darkness of where he was. And we're seeing that play out here. He's not all the way out yet. Exactly. He's not all the way out yet. It's a process. In fact, what we know is we have another year and a half of this before he really emerges. But the rebirth, if you would say, you know, it's almost what's happening here in the light. It's really happening right now. You know, we know that there is an indicator in the opening sequence that if a person is turning their head, that means that they have they're hiding something still or they have secrets left. Jakar is still turning his head in the opening sequence. And I'm curious if over the course of the season that changes. Like, is there a point that we'll see all of Jakar has been revealed? Be interesting. After enough people said I was nuts, I figured I'd shut up until I could find somebody to back up my story. Well, I found her. Her name is Dr. Mary Kirkish. Through the ranges, I heard she was on the run, so I asked Marcus to find her.

[44:34] Two episodes in a row with powerful marching snare. Once she gets here, once you talk to her, you'll understand why. On our first watch brent you tried so hard so hard to make the name kirkish a shot at star trek but just okay just couldn't do it all right and then one day our sonic probes picked up something 300 feet beneath the surface of syria planum we didn't know what it was except it wasn't a natural formation and given its depth it had to have been there at least a thousand years the ship is dead in the middle of the martian winter so it took weeks just to dig half of it out of the ground but that much.

[45:14] The big panning slow reveal oh my god it's the same ship we've been seeing on the news lately the one that looks like it came straight from hell but back home they're saying they've never seen ships like this before it came straight from hell we have pretty ubiquitous imagery of what hell means sure that brent was implanted by the vorlons who influenced all of our faith and how we observe it and experience it is this an observation you're making are you pulling this from somewhere it's an observation i'm making hold on i think about this so she says that this thing came straight from hell and if we think about what we know of zaha doom zaha doom does, have a hellish thing to it right and shadows look i mean god they're demonic totally and if what we understand as hellish and demonic is actually planted and planted in us by the, Vorlons. Interesting.

[46:15] Okay. The Vorlons are still leaving, or the shadows are still leaving. And then one of our workers who was clearing away the dirt accidentally touched it with his bare hand. He died instantly as if the life had just been sucked right out of him. Did you ever get a reply from Earth Central? No, not at first. But a week later, we were suddenly ordered to stop digging and pull back to our secondary base two miles But we were told anyone who didn't move would be fired, so we moved. For six days, we just sat there waiting, while unmarked shuttles moved in and out of the areas surrounding the dig. And then suddenly everything stopped. No shuttles, no communication, no, That's when I saw it.

[46:58] So here's what we're seeing here. So when the shadow ship was exposed. Jump in a hole and pull the ground in over me, but there was nowhere to go. When the shadow ship was exposed, the minions, the allies, they received a signal. The shadow ship was, the CPU, the person inside was dead. So it couldn't do anything. And basically what we're seeing with this other shadow ship is like sending a new unit in, you know, and I think it's going to like attach itself and like fly away or something like that. But, you know, yeah. At first I thought it was destroying the other ship. Mommy, what's that ship doing to the other ship? For... 25 minutes. I just got what you said. Then we heard it.

[47:46] Are you telling me the Vorlon also implanted the hideousness of that noise into our heads as well? Probably. No, that's just horrible sound. The sound of something terrible being born. They warned us that if we told anyone what we'd seen, there would be unfortunate consequences. A few weeks ago I was called into a new dig. They found another one of these things, this time on Ganymede. But there's a difference whoever's behind this back home doesn't want to give it back in three days they're going to take it back to earth study its secrets and learn how to use it against the other races and if necessary against our own people that's why i had to warn someone you can't let them get a hold of one of these ships they don't want it so we can fight these things they want us to become more like them it was in this episode the first time that i learned ganymede is a real place i thought it was something that she made up and you're like uh no it's uh no it's yeah Yeah, it's a moon. It's a thing. Yeah. Sometimes I forget what's common knowledge and what's not. It probably is pretty common. You say that and I'm like, you didn't know that Ganymede was? Okay. We've made arrangements to get you into Minbari space. And here, please take care of Dr. Kirkus. Of course. You mean like take care or?

[48:57] Lanier is too pure and innocent. He doesn't know. Right. Woo hoo. Like what? I will tell you something I'm noticing in this episode, Jeff. Yeah. more than i have ever noticed in any other episode all of the earth alliance logos they're like they're embedded on the table they were embedded like on a towel they're embedded like just earth forces like all over the place and i don't know that it's always been like this it feels very prominent in this episode to me really feeling it especially given what we know is getting ready to happen right how can we fight something like that how can you fight something like that about this for a while. Alone. I'll call you when I have something to say. Delenn, stay. By alone, I mean with Delenn. I need you. Right. I like being alone with my boo, too.

[49:45] Right here oh look at this oh it's his earth force pin not his stat bar are you sure you wish to go through with this no but what choice do i have it's time to tell the others bruce box lightner who can speak a monologue without saying a word we can't allow president clark to get a hold of a shadow ship that kind of power in his hands could be the end of everything that we have worked for. We have got to stop that ship before it leaves Ganymede as well. I just want to mark that we just witnessed the last time John Sheridan wears an Earth Force uniform. Does he wear one when he goes on trial? Um he puts on like the gray okay yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah so okay second second to the last delin and i will take the white star into earth-controlled space.

[50:37] With luck find the ship destroy it on the ground before they can activate it if not captain you can't do this as soon as you open up a jump point near jupiter you'll be picked up by the early warning system i know our own ships will be sent in to destroy you'll be completely outgunned we understand commander neither of us has any illusions about what we are planning to do you can't take on earth i mean not now later later it's too late so what are you gonna do when they open fire gonna fire back on one of our own ships what if he captured we won't be captured one way or another the decision's mine and mine alone and it's made he wears the earth force uniform some more i was wrong i'd be better if he did it but yeah you do love this i i love that he's he i love the definitiveness with which he leads here and he he's got all his people and he goes but the decision is mine and mine alone and the decision is made it's done done we're here jms talks about this if you're gonna have a situation where sheridan actually fires on an earth alliance ship it has to be the only way of dealing with the situation and it has to be supremely motivated so that it's not just him or one of our guys who is at stake it has to be a big situation to merit taking the lives of fellow officers in the same service so let's keep an eye out for all of those things. Is there any other option?

[51:56] Is it the only option? Is it a big enough at stake? Or is it just his own neck? All of those answers are going to be yes, I know, but I just want to point that out. It's a two day jump to earth space. It's a long time to be gone. I'm leaving behind my identity card, my uniform, command rank, anything that could lead back here if something should go wrong. So the jump is two days and it still takes days to get to the jump points. I tell you to take.

[52:24] I've left instructions in my desk for a cover story if we don't come back. Send out my Star Fury and use the auto-destruct sequence. Doctor, you'll provide the organic mass to simulate a casualty. Wow. Gonna fake his own death, man. Mm-hmm. What if Sheridan had to actually fake his own death? Like, we know he doesn't, but... He does die, though. He does die. He doesn't have to fake it. We all knew that sooner or later we'd have to deal with Earth. So, I guess it's time we got down to business.

[52:54] He knows the import like this i mean the camera work coming in that look on his face it feels heavy right oh and that's his boo it just feels so right you know like just it's not anything yet and it is but it is and we said that it is it is the most earned relationship i've seen in, any show maybe except for tom and balama reference to find corruption and disloyalty here and back home have succeeded beyond our expectations earth has been sold out by our own people senators high-ranking military officers news media correspondents even some of the joint chiefs of staff everything we've been seeing lately the libelous attacks on the president alien forces encroaching on our territory the lies and subversion going on back home they're all part of an organized effort to weaken our government from within prelude to invasion I don't believe it. They'll start making arrests within the next two months. Gotta tell you, Jeff, there was a day in my life when in real life, I absolutely bought into crap like this. Yeah? That all of this stuff is happening, government and this, that, and the other, and everything's all this, that.

[54:09] It's all a bunch of who, uh, you know, I'm not saying that the, that there's people in the government that are not corrupt. I'm not saying that I'm not saying that there's not enemy forces at work. I'm not saying that I know there are, but this level of everything is bad. Everything is bad. And the only thing that is good as what we're saying, I know people because I, I used to be one who actually think like this, you know, and, and a lot of that's just where we are, but it's get out of your echo chamber folks. That's all I'm saying. Guy Echo Chamber. Lists have already been drawn up. Earth needs all the information we can give her. Any sources accept it. Make it easier for sources to come forward. We're going to allow them to give us information anonymously. We're authorized to look into past history, social contacts, party affiliation. Social media accounts. Email and vid surveillance of Babcom and Stellarcom transmissions. Whoa, whoa, wait. Just how far does this go anyway? Do we start suspecting everybody? No, of course not. Just the bad people.

[55:07] Automatically recognized as working in the best interests of Earth. Anyone who has our color skin and hair. Dude. We won't look at them. How intentional did they pick a white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed dude to deliver all this? I mean, look at that. Yeah. I don't know that Von Armstrong is actually blonde or has blue eyes. Right? I don't know. I never see him not under makeup. Right? Well, I now need to go watch those episodes where he's just a face character on Enterprise to see. Cause I don't know that this actually is cause yikes, dude. It just reminds me of when I got to ask Von Armstrong and Jeffrey Combs what their favorite guest star appearance ever was and why it was Babylon five.

[55:48] And Jeffrey Combs was like, I did Babylon. What? No, I don't even remember what Von's response was.

[55:58] Combs did not appreciate that. That question at all. He did not. He did. You ate it. In that case, may I ask a question? Does anyone in this room know where the captain is? No, you're not allowed to ask that question. Does everyone in this room always know where the captain is? You know what I miss most about home? Mom's cooking. The sound of the rain. Rain hitting the roof at night. It always helped me fall asleep. Back when I was a kid preparing for the academy. Alexa, let's turn on rain sounds. Welcome, everyone. I'd have maybe two hours to sleep after that. I was so wound up. I'd just lie there. Same thing happened the night before my final test. I just knew if I didn't get some sleep, I'd never pass it. And? Did it begin to rain? No. But Dad, my dad heard me walking around. He knew I couldn't sleep. Is this the first we hear about his dad? His first story? He got the garden hose. and sprayed it so it came down on the roof, just like rain he stood there making it rain until I fell asleep what's a garden hose what's a dad sometimes he would have stood there for days if he had to I miss him.

[57:21] His dad was a good dude yeah more than anything else in the world I wish it would rain nachos.

[57:29] Duvena need to change Alexis so it responds to nachos.

[57:44] Sheridan's love for his dad is something you and I talk about extensively in our first time watch. Okay. But what I love, and not our first time watching this episode, but just through the series. Okay. But what I love in this, I mean, Bruce Boxleiter. We talked about Andre Katsoulis earlier in the acting he did with his face. Yeah. Dude, I bought every breath of it. Like, Sheridan loves his dad. Yeah, absolutely. And he is loved by his dad. Yes. You know what I mean?

[58:14] Oh look at him in a world full of wharfs be a david is his name that's david right yeah in a world full of wharfs name of the kid be shared name him after his dad i think so i remember hey either way, In a world full of wharfs, be John Sheridan's dad. There you go. IXP one to base. IXP one to base. Ready to begin transference. Subject is approaching target. Repeat. Subject is approaching target. What's he talking about? Shadow vessels use living creatures as their central core. Whoever steps inside merges with it, becomes one with the ship. After that, it's fully functional. There is no way in my original run that I connected that to organic tech from Infection. Yeah, we did. No. Mm-hmm. no what did we say we tied uh exactly let's see what i get here infection the icarus kirkish it's all around the shadows and or at least organic tech but i don't think that even in saying that i don't know that we understood that that's what organic tech was i don't like i i remember going all through the entire first run of the show not really understanding what organic tech was, that it was organic and technology merged together as one. Yeah.

[59:27] I understood it as something else altogether. I didn't understand that the machine down on Epsilon 3 was organic tech, that that's what that, like, I get it now. Hey, guys, I get it. But, yeah, because I still felt like the ship itself could have been organic tech, not that organic tech was something merged with something else. Like, like even in infection, the stuff that took over dude, I didn't consider it organic tech and that it was merging with him. The tech itself was just organic. You know what I mean? Not that it was organic tech because it merged with him. Like, you know, so sending someone inside right now, it's just different knowing it now that I know what it is.

[1:00:12] And it seems so obvious. How could you miss it? Right there, right there. Something's happening. It lost bio skin. Something's. Oh my. I wonder if this is what JMS meant by some poor schlup who got convinced. Maybe it's not something that shadows have done repeatedly. It's just in this case that they got somebody to be like, yeah, I'll do it. It's moving. It's moving. Cause it's. Yeah. We've got visual. Put it through. That, that actually tracks a lot better.

[1:00:48] God, the soundtrack in this episode is incredible. Yeah. Vela's name. It's awake. Yeah, JMS talks about this being such an effects-heavy episode. What do you think? Did they come out right? I think so. Looks good. Insane. It will destroy anything in its path. And we've got to stop it before anyone else gets here. Engines at maximum. Standby. Weapons system. Prepare to fire. We're going inside. If we can't outfight it, let's hope we can outfight it. Look how excited he is for this. Uh-huh. He doesn't get this being the commander of a station. Right? Right? This is what he wants. How much pressure can this thing take? Unknown. Twelve thousand! Continued descent. Captain, if we go any further, we may not have enough power to escape before we're destroyed. If we turn back to the officer, nothing follows us out. We'll be dead either way. Now stand by! All's buckling. Losing control. Now get us out of here! Full power, give me everything you've got. If I was holding anything back, I would check it out.

[1:02:03] He just crinkled. Yeah. Crushed. And now he's like, oh my god, it worked. Right? Any sign of the scanners indicate it's been destroyed. Where's all your naysaying now, Lanier? Get us out of here. You and your safety protocols. I thought you said we killed that thing. We did? This is the Earth Alliance destroyer Agamemnon. Two unidentified vessels. It's the Aggie. We have recorded an attack in this sector. You will surrender your vessel and prepare to be boarded. Shall I return fire? Negative, I won't fire on her. Are they equipped for atmospheric maneuvering? No, they can track us down like a bloodhound. They can wait us out, they can knock us down, or board us if we try to...

[1:02:49] Is he in a desperate enough situation? If we remain here, we will be destroyed. Our only choices are to fight or to surrender. No, we can't surrender. And I won't open fire on my old ship. then what do you recommend violating the laws of physics opening a jump point in a hydrogen-rich atmosphere would be explosive at best oh she's right thank you for letting us know linear as we can to the edge of the atmosphere that should minimize the eruption i hope send a message in interlock tell them that we are prepared to surrender but we need them to back off a little then bring her up slowly now.

[1:03:35] Ha, ha, ha. Son of a gun. Ladies and gentlemen. Inbari, congratulations. Gentlemen. The first atmospheric jump that I have ever heard of. Mr. Lanier, put us on a course for home. Best speed. He's like, I haven't felt this alive in a year and a half. Right. We'll be back this way again, one way or another. She's so proud of him. Right? What a great team. She's getting the tinglys. That wouldn't have worked if it wasn't for both of them being there. According to Earth Force, the ship was pursued to Jupiter and destroyed by the EAS Agamemnon. Nonetheless, this latest incident has heightened concerns about planetary security. President Clark is said to be considering a new plan that will provide Earth with greater security. Off. Unbelievable. You look pretty good for a dead man. Oh, he's wearing his uniform. But the way it's being reported, you'd think we were the menace. Yeah. No good deed goes unpunished. The important thing is we got away with it. So far. Cut to Nightwatch.

[1:04:41] We've been getting reports that earth force may have been infiltrated by traitors right up to the command level any unusual behavior is to be reported and investigated captain was gone for four days i'd say that that qualifies as unusual behavior the ministry agrees well you better start deciding which is more important to you zach friendship or your job which is to protect earth, rip it off rip it off rip it off oh so close right oh yeah come i thought you might want to see this as i recall you were somewhat concerned about where i fit in the great organizational scheme of things so i went to the effort of preparing this how much do you love this jeff, here's you right here at the heart of everything and why not and here's me why are you doing this Did it make you laugh? Yes. And my job here is done they're so great they're so great yes a gal appreciates a guy who can make a laugh monitor on find isn and to confirm earlier reports president clark has signed a decree today declaring martial art throughout earth central citing threats to planetary security he's expected to provide information to the, close meeting of the full earth senate tomorrow we repeat earth is now under martial law.

[1:06:02] At the closed door session of the senate i thought the first time around and i share it this time around like i know it doesn't happen but uh but it makes total sense like but this is the palpatine moment where you walk in you dissolve the senate and you make it all all yours yeah yeah what an episode man it's good tv all the way around man i can't help but go back and read my comment the first time around good not amazing right this was amazing i think those new people have no idea no idea what they're talking about they you know what they really just stop trying to watch the show and talk about it and just watch the show just watch it just let it you know just enjoy the show just watch it i get that though i i get that argument for people like i really like i understand it can't do it i understand it gosh but yeah i mean everything the music the soundtrack the effects that if i had one gripe in the whole episode it's so nitpicky but it's on ganymede when the shadow ship busts out of the dome the breaking glass looked stupid.

[1:07:08] Who cares right right like and i guess i have one other gripe and andrew in the chat shares It was Oza Andrew, I think, who said it. But why don't we get a close-up shot of that org chart that Marcus put together? I want to know how his mom and dad fit into the whole thing. I want to know why he's got this whole big org chart, but he's got pictures of folk. Yeah, right. That he's apparently hand-drawn. It's like if he did Vizio in third grade.

[1:07:34] It's so great. This is a peak Marcus episode. Incredible Sheridan and Delenn episode. Yeah, it's fantastic. This is an episode where all the stuff that's happened in the first seven episodes of the season, have really come together like all the marcus stuff remember like we we met marcus then we didn't see him for a couple episodes and then he was there and then we just kind of meandered away, the seven episodes that he's taken to introduce this character now it pays off in this in this episode here big time because you're right this is a huge marcus episode and we get we get fighting marcus who can run up a freaking wall i don't know if you saw that yeah we get hero marcus who delivers dr kirkish and all that we get goofy marcus who does this little uh org chart thing, we get sweet thoughtful marcus who delivers eggs and bacon to ivanova uh despite her being being a jew right beside that being like patently offensive but other than that super thoughtful right right, So, I mean, how could you not love Marcus at this point? If you don't love Marcus at this point, you don't have a soul. And I weep for you. You know, and that's coming from somebody who barely has a soul. Right.

[1:08:57] That's his own admission, folks. I didn't say that. That's just, I'm just repeating back what he has said before. It's very true. It's very true. Brent, you teased a thing at the beginning of this episode. It's time to pay it off. JMS silver platters the message in this episode. What did he say?

[1:09:13] Well i did read it earlier and i tried to pass it off as if it wasn't it but i will go back to it how is sheridan going to defeat a shadow ship he says this humans are at our best when our backs are against the wall have to do it ourselves and in the final analysis no one else can do it for us jeff there's so much truth in this statement in this sentiment that humanity people we are at our best when our back's against the wall and i'm not saying that we need to go out and try to put our backs against a wall you know what i mean specifically we're pushed like that is when we're pushed against the wall yeah you know i i know it's cool to hate on humanity today, it's it's oh why do all these sci-fi stories have to be human centric where humans go out and save the world because we're humans and they're our stories yeah that's why we paid to have the show made so right right but also i think it says something about humans in general yeah oh human you know what the worst enemy of of pick a species out there or the earth is what's the worst enemy jeff humanity okay hey you know what you know who the best friend of every single one of those species and the climate also is humanity because yeah we might have done some stuff to muck it up but let me tell you who's going to be the the best bet to fix it.

[1:10:42] It's still us every time, you know, and I think there really is something that is, that is super special. And when we look at this whole piece backs against the wall, humanity becomes the best.

[1:10:56] John Sheridan, we see him in a microcosm when he's out of Ganymede and he's, he's got the Agamemnon and he's got to figure out how does, how does he not fire on his people and get away and get back to where he needs to be? And he could only do that under the pressure. Okay, we macro this out a little bit. You've got stuff that's going on with Clark and Earth Force as a whole and command structures, and now we're declaring martial law and all of that. What are we going to do? Where are we going to be? Jeff, we hold our litmus test. Mirror to society, hope that things can be better in the future, or just how do we be better human beings? I say usually to one another, but this is one where I'm going to put it in the middle. We don't get this one a whole lot in Babylon 5 of hope that things can be better in the future.

[1:11:42] Listen, folks, there's a lot of crap that's going on out there right now. A lot of crap. Fortunately, I don't care when you're listening to this. That's probably still true. I was going to say, yeah, this counts for all time. There's a lot of very disheartening stuff that's happening. There's a lot of stuff that can make you feel very helpless. A lot of stuff you turn on the news today and you're just, what am I going to do? What i mean i can go out and protest but is that really going to do good like i i did something yay but what what's what's what's really going to happen or what happens when all of this goes to hell in the ambasket where does that where does that go i'm not saying we want to go there to that spot where our backs are against the wall but i do think that there is something to keep in mind that if there's something I know about people, if there's something I know about humanity, we tend to be at our best when our backs are against the wall. I know it's true for me in my own personal life and my own personal things.

[1:12:40] And I've got to believe it's true for us. You know, the idea that no matter how dark it gets out there, right, no matter how crazy president Clark gets declaring martial law, sending his own troops into civilian areas, uh, no matter how many people sign off on it and say that, yes, this is good, or this is right, or whatever, there is hope that we can overcome that because while you may not see the answer right now humanity tends to be at its best when its back is up against the wall, and i hope that what we're going to see coming out of the craziness that is occurring is actually the best of humanity yeah and i think that we can it's possible we can't but i think that we can, i brent think we are and have been uh mr rogers i think said it said this a different way fred Rogers. Fred or Aaron? Which one? Yeah, Fred.

[1:13:37] When things go south, when there's a disaster, a catastrophe, things go wrong, always look for the helpers because they're always there. When things don't work out right, it could be small, it could be massive, it could be catastrophic, but there will be helpers because we show up in the best of times, in the worst of times, especially in the worst of times. And I think right now, today, and I say that acknowledging Imagine this is an evergreen podcast, so whatever time or political climate you're in, this applies. But there's these awful things that are happening. There are good people out there doing really, really good things. There are people who are being the best of humanity right now, and just watch for them. As long as they're there.

[1:14:23] We're going to be okay and go be some of the best of humanity yeah do that be one of the helpers yeah and ben points this out that i in our council chambers that i often argue that the vorlons are better than the shadows because i don't go with the the chaos theory of the shadows but i've actually just articulated why the shadows are the right philosophy to put our backs against the wall but i also said ben i will push back on that i also said you don't need to do this intentionally and we shouldn't seek out having to have our backs against the wall but it's just knowing that when we are facing that pressure the best in humanity comes out it's it's not you you haven't begun to see us yet until this really happens until we're there jeff you get anything else out of this episode i'm we said it all like that okay no i've got one more thing oh i thought we said i got one more thing that i actually pulled from the middle of the episode well actually rather from the end zach he's talking to vaughn armstrong couldn't even tell you the security guard number one for real why does it got to be one i know anyway he's asking him to do a bunch of stuff against garibaldi and zach says this just amazing line that just really jumped out at me things are tough between us but he's still a friend okay let's talk about how to be better human beings to one another recognizing the idea that there are times.

[1:15:46] Even amongst the best of friends and i don't know that i'd say that zach and garibaldi were best of friends oh but even among the best of friends there can.

[1:15:55] Be falling outs there can be weird awkwardness there can be tough times.

[1:16:02] But still being able to recognize who's a friend. Hey, we're on opposite sides of the fence on this one, but you're still my friend. And being able to stay true and to stay loyal to those who are your friend, even when things are not great, is a task that is worth it. You know what it is? And what it plays out to be in Babylon 5? What's that? Is it's a bridge back to normalcy, healthiness, good, because you still have your friends yeah i did think of one thing okay marcus and his org chart we all belong oh we all have a place yeah there you go his mom and dad are there but i felt this i'm sure others have but i don't fit here i don't have a role here i don't belong here yeah you do you absolutely do it might be way over here in the ottoman empire and some weird thing, the Ottoman Empire. I don't know. What was that?

[1:17:04] But you belong. You are valued and you are needed. But everyone has a place. And the place that I'm most concerned about now, Brent, is where you're going to place this in the definitive ranking of Babylon 5, Season 3, for the second time. I'm going to go ahead and make a guess here. And our current number one episode is Dust to Dust. Brent, where does messages from Earth go? Dust to dust was a good episode really was and dust to dust is an episode that that set up this great we didn't even talk really a whole lot about Jakar I know in the moment we did in the moment we did but I mean coming out of here good Lord he said some great stuff we wouldn't have that without what happened in dust to dust not at all but there is no way on God's green earth that this is not the best episode of the season so far because.

[1:17:58] My god but you know what i think really makes this such a great episode though jeff is this episode has been set up it's not just hey let's just have a good 45 minutes of tv this episode has been planned it's been pointed to it's been foreshadowed it's been the the groundwork has been laid and i you know jms talks about if you find somebody who's never watched babylon five before bring them in and let them watch this episode and you sit there and go yeah it's a good episode but are they really going to be able to get it are they really going to be able to to understand what's happening in a way that's that's beneficial and we'll not just have them write it off without having all that other stuff and i say yes you can but for those of us who have been watching this episode hits because everything's been pointing to this two and a half years of build up to this yeah look there's a reason why by the end of season two i was saying, earth has got to pull away from Babylon 5 has got to pull away from earth, Why? Because the clues were there. Yeah, everything has built to it. The building was there.

[1:19:02] I didn't actually know how it was going to happen. I didn't know when it was going to happen, but it just felt like that's where we were going. Yeah. Building it up pretty close. Yeah. Yeah. I do not disagree with your ranking at all. That ranking, Brent, we'll wrap it up for messages from Earth. We have now launched into our trilogy slash quadrilogy of episodes. Part two is called point of no return brent we made predictions back in the day uh based on the title alone what did you predict point of no return was going to be about exactly what i just said yep exactly earth breaks or babylon five breaks away from earth that is the point of no return once you do that you can't go back i don't think it actually happens till severed dreams that is correct but that was my prediction what about yours jeff exactly the same I just added one, two, three, a couple words. Martial law will come to Babylon 5, and it will end with Sheridan and the crew leaving Earth Alliance. And then we'll get the rest of B5 coming with them. That was what we guessed, and we were wrong, but not that far off, but...

[1:20:15] I'm excited to watch it, especially after watching this one. I'm super excited to watch Point of No Retreat. I hope you are as well. Join us here at this very same place next week to watch that with us. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. All your call-to-action stuff. If you want to be a part of our recordings, you can check out our Patreon page. There's a link down to the show notes, patreon.com slash badnerds. Our Council Chambers tiers get invited to our recordings and be a part of that. You can get and see the unedited stuff. You can see all the other content we put up there as well. Also, please, even if looking at our Patreon isn't an option for you, you want to help us out, share this show. Share it with somebody who needs to see messages from Earth for the first, second, or even 47th time. So with that, it's time to wrap up. Hey, Jeff. Yes. Hey, so we've got a meeting. I should have something for you. Coming up. I have something. No, I have something for you. Why are you interrupting the bit? Because I have a thing for you that is going to happen this week. It is time. And it's apropos given the episode. Brent, what's the deal with Chicky? Oh, my gosh. Dude, you have like the worst timing. We have been on here for over two hours recording at this point. I can't do it this week. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. I'm just going to hit the button now. Like that's how you're going to get out of it every time.