Moments of Transition

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: I'm Brent Allen, and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we're watching Babylon five for the first time for you, the one who is,

Brent: right. Jeff and I are two veterans, star Trek podcasters who have decided to try our hand at this new show. Well, new to us, Babylon five, and we're thanking those skills. We've learned as Star Trek podcasters, where we look for deep moral messages, and we're applying those skills here to Babylon five, looking for those deep moral messages.

But we are also looking for how these messages are being told to us in the uniquely Babylon five way.

Jeff: and while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are sure to make some of those reference. So to keep us honest and on task, we play the rule of three, and that means each one of us gets up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. No substitutions, exchanges are refund.

I'm pretty excited for this little section here because everything's gonna be a little bit, uh, it's a little bit of a mix up from normal,

Brent: All right.

Jeff: but I'm gonna start in a very comfortable place. Brent, we have a five star review. Oh, yes. From Apple podcasts, MG 1 69 says a lot of fun. It's so much fun to relive the joy of watching Babylon five for the first time with these two.

Even if you don't always agree with their assessment of the individual episodes, it's always fun to play along when they guess what's gonna happen. The hard part is to hold back on spoilers when commenting, but watching them figure out things for themselves makes it all worthwhile.

Brent: You know, Jeff, something I don't think you and I acknowledge nearly enough is just how hard it must be for our listeners out there to respect the no spoiler rule and to really walk that line. So I, let me say cuz I don't think we've said it in a long time, to those of you who are trying your hardest not to spoil and keep this show as, as, uh, fresh for Jeff and I to keep the integrity of the show together.

Thank you so much cuz I, I know you're, you're sitting there squirming in your seats and laughing along with us even. Even when it's not a prediction, it's just sort of something we say offhand.

Jeff: I think so much about Valin and Anna and all those things, and people kept their mouths shut for so long. That was amazing. That was so cool.

Brent: You, Jeff, you hit those two things I like, I didn't see either one of those coming. In fact, you said both of those and I was like, no, that's dumb. And sure enough, that's where we went.

Jeff: Not so dumb. Right. Well, hey Brenton, here's where we get fun. We have another five star review. Oh, yes. From Audible. I went back to Audible.

Brent: What's up, audible?

Jeff: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make that more of a habit At some point. I'm gonna

Brent: I can. Here I can help with that. You ready

Jeff: Right.

Brent: for everyone out there? Alexa, play Babylon five for the first time.

Jeff: Well, hey, this one's from James B. James B says, great show guys. Absolutely love listening to both of you and seeing things through your eyes. Love that Brent is a Stargate fan and brings some of that to the table. Love that. Jeff rocks the mass effect series. This is my first podcast that I have ever listened to and you guys have set the bar pretty high for entertaining content is I've tried listening to other podcasts and I did not like them.

Anywho, this is me finally giving you a five star review.

Brent: Wow. Thank you so much. And you know what, different podcasts for different folks out there, you know, and, uh, we're, we're happy to be your chosen one. And, uh, Jeff, if I do say so myself, I like our show,

Jeff: I like our show

Brent: you know, be, and, and, and it's that rule that that's, it's that rule I often talk about when you go to make a podcast, make the show that you would want to listen.

Figure out what you want in a show and then make that show. So this show is exactly how I would want a Babylon five show to be. We just happen to be making it

Jeff: I always love those times when I'm editing and I catch a clip that either cracks me up or kind of blows my mind and I'll, I'll clip it and send it to you and I'm just like, wow, this is so cool. I can't wait for people to hear.

Brent: right. Right. So much fun. So much fun. Well, Jeff, you know, along with our rule of three, there is, uh, other games, there are other games that we like to play here at Babylon. Five four. The first time one of those games comes at the end of the episode where we try to predict what Nex Week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone.

Never having seen it, never jumping ahead. Cause we don't do that. Uh, we don't look at thumbnails, we don't look at show descriptions that are never accurate anyway. We don't check out I M D B, none of that sort of stuff. This is the spot where we try to look back last week and see what we said this week was gonna be about.

Jeff, what did you say moments of transition was gonna be and how close.

Jeff: Not nearly as close as you are. Actually, you know what? I think we both did a pretty great job on this one in different ways. I,

Brent: Oh, don't forget, we're scoring each other.

Jeff: Oh,

that's right. That's 

Brent: scores. Yeah, that's right.

Jeff: Okay, so I said that the Minbar war was gonna wrap up in this

Brent: Right.

Jeff: And that Naroon was gonna be the reason why, but I thought what he was going to do was the chrysalis thing.

I thought he was gonna go half and half, but I also called that he was going to either hybrid as religious cast and warrior caster, go one way, but try, uh, where I missed the, the whole sense was the chrysalis thing, obviously. And, uh, I also thought that he was going to, uh, demolish the cast system.

Brent: Jeff, I'm gonna give you like nine tenths of a point on that one. Cause we're only scaling on one on one dis zero to one. Like that's like nine tenths of a point. Jeff, you were so close. So close. So.

Jeff: Well, hey, why don't you, why'd you hit us with

Brent: well, mine, I said that the mam Civil War was gonna heat up. I didn't think it was gonna come to an end, although I'm really glad it did because it, it felt so good.

Um, but I did say that I thought Naroon and Dalen were gonna try to work together to reform the great council, but somehow Naroon was gonna weasel his way in to take control of the council and seize control of the Mbar government wasn't so close on that. However, in another conversation other, in, in the, the, the show last week, we, we started talking about the idea that nothing good happens when the, the religious leaders or the military leaders of a society take over. That it's the workers who, like when, when the workers are in charge. When the Roman, uh, was controlled by the Senate, not by Caesar, things were good. You know, I think in recent history, we can all think of some other countries that when you're controlled really by the people and not by religious or military, by one faction over the other, uh, and that those two factions are meant to serve the greater, that literally was how this episode ended, and I was shocked.

And, and we were just saying right before we came on the show, and I'll, I'll reiterate. I, I, one, I promise you I did not watch ahead. This was, this was not anything I did. I, I think, I suspect this has very little to do with Brent and way more to do with what j m s does, with how he seeds his show in his writing.

That leads you to already have these thoughts before he ever actually gives them to you so that

Jeff: Yeah, I think the absence of the worker cast being mentioned is what, like put them in

Brent: Exactly. Exactly. He, he do, he drops these things. That already has you on that train that when he presents this, this solution to you, you're like, well, of course that's what it is. That's what I think.

Jeff: I'm gonna give you 0.8 of a point on that one. Really, it's that last piece coming in to save. Cuz that last piece, I mean, I mean you almost even like named the the new Makeup of the Gray council and everything. But you know what I'm You did, yeah. And I'm talking in some specifics now and so people might be getting a little like, what are you even talking about in this?

So if you haven't watched this episode in a while or you're wondering what we're talking about, or if you've never watched it at all and for some reason, listen to us before you go watch it. It's weird, but cool. And we appreciate it. Brent, why don't you tell us about moments of transition?

Brent: was the night before. Well any other night and all through B five, not a creature was stirring. It was about a quarter to five. Michael was all snuggled up in his bed while visions of Cycorp brainwashing chambers danced in his head. When what, to his wondering ears would sound, but a chime with a message that he had to answer.

Right now it was William Eggers. You see Lisa's new husband. Oh, joy Yippy. But Michael is on Edgar's payroll, you know, and he had a job for him, and Michael couldn't say no. There's a package that Michael has to get through, but Zach is on to him. Oh, what should he do? I know Michael said, it's a telepath I need, and I know one named Lida and it's money that she needs.

She's trying to find a job since Kosh left her high and dry, the Volans stopped paying her bills and the rent is quite high. So Lida will have to move to smaller quarters it seems. Because she can't find a job. And you know what that means? Enter ster from Cyco who will help her. No doubt. With one caveat he gets her body, when she ultimately checks out, in the end, ster gets her and he's got Gu Baldy too.

His plan is working quite nicely. I wonder what's he gonna do, but that's not where our story ends today. Oh no, that's just the B plot. So here is plot A the Mbar at war, and it's not very civil, it seems The Warrior cast is winning and Delin is gonna bend the knee in front of the entire planet. She surrenders to those fools, but she has the upper hand cuz she knows the ancient rules.

Whenever there's a dispute, a beam of light will shine down. The leaders will get in and the pain will be quite profound. It will show who is for the people and who is for themselves. And the first to leave, the light will lose and the fighting will be quelled. So Dalen gets in first, and Shaki gets in next, but Shakira can't stand it.

So Dalen is the best, but she doesn't get out either. She's trying to prove a point. She is the leader that they all should anoint, but then she falls down flat and Naroon saves her head, but he stays in the light and winds up quite dead. Now, Delenn reforms the Great Council, , but not the same as before.

This time, the worker cast. We'll have five while the other two combined for four. So once again, we see that Brent was absolutely right. His crown rests safely on his head. And now Jeff, tell us about this episode. What did you like?

Jeff: Fred. That was amazing. That was so good. Can I just react to your recap this whole time? How long did that take you? That was incredible.

Brent: Probably took about 30, 30 minutes or so to, to come up with, I, I gotta be honest, it was one of those, I was sitting there the whole time going, this is either gonna be the best thing I've ever done, or it's gonna be the stupidest thing I've ever done.

Jeff: This might be our last episode. We're not gonna top that. We're like, we just, you just reached the top of the mountain that. was so good. And, and on today of all days, if you're watching this in the future, this came out on Christmas Day,

Brent: Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good point. It's, yeah, I've

Jeff: Somebody's gonna be like, what's the, what's the big deal?

But

Brent: Hello to everyone in the future, by the way.

Jeff: Yeah. Hello from us, uh, both in the past and the

future to you now.

Brent: Well, we were always here, Jeff.

Jeff: Always. All right. To the episode, then. I guess to me, this all happened too fast. I am super satisfied with how it ended, but I, we talked about this a little last week. I never felt the impact or the devastation of the Civil War.

I never felt real danger. I frankly was never concerned about Minbar at all. Like, it's like, oh, well, there's stuff going on there. I think last week I talked about Valin was going to come back, you know, like kind of talked about him coming to bring order. And then I thought Naroon was gonna chrysalis himself.

I like you talked about, I think maybe j m s was just really competently and artistically dropping these seeds, but this, this, I mean, it kind of came out the way we thought it was gonna

Brent: Do, do you know what I think would've helped

Jeff: Hmm.

Brent: you remember how last week we were saying they showed these images of minbar and it looked fine. The images they had of Minbar today

Jeff: Should have been the

Brent: should have been the ones from last week, the images of Dylan walking through the hall and the people are just littered in the hall.

Injured should have been in last week. I think that would've amped that up quite a bit. Um, but I hear, I hear you on the, it didn't feel real last week at.

Jeff: Yeah. Which I think took a lot out of this one for me. Uh, just at least, at least in the beginning. It's just like, oh, okay. I guess we're gonna, I guess we're gonna wrap this little, little kef off up. But I did, I loved, I loved the Bester, the Garrett, Baldy, Zack stuff. Lida, all of it. This to me, I mean, the Menari stuff was awesome and in the, the cannon of Babylon, five is significant and huge, but this episode, this show, all that stuff was the show to me.

I really enjoyed it. It was them at their best, like Garabaldi is, is living his dream and still finding stuff to complain about. Like it's just, that's Garabaldi today. Lida struggling with her new role and the transitions in her life as well, I thought was really good and realistic. Zach, dude, I want a friend like Zach.

He's a great friend to Garrett Baldy. He's a great friend to, to lead and I think in this episode we, we've talked about it a little bit before, but in this episode it really showed he, I, I think he is a better. Head of security than Garabaldi was

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: like, dude is super competent, super effective, he's great.

And I loved Bester on here. I mean, seriously, how kind of him to come all the way to Babylon, five to offer to help lead a in her trying time. So giving and gracious of him, we've been kind of, you and I have been kind of, I don't wanna say complaining, but we've been critical about some of the pacing of this season so far.

Um, but I don't think that's gonna be the case from this point forward, given how the episode ended and a couple of the other pieces, I feel like it we're gonna be moving from this point forward. But yeah, this was, I really, I, I loved this episode. This was

Brent: I wanna pick up on what you just said there at the end. I 100% agree. I, I feel like we got into the spot where got set up through season three, and then we had this amazing, tightly packed six episode run to start the season. These last, how many episodes has it been now? Eight episodes

Jeff: Seven.

Brent: have come back to, uh, almost a world building type situation.

A, a resetting. Of where we are. And it feels like, Jeff, it feels like you're absolutely right. Like when, when Ivanova comes in at the end and she's like, I can't believe those bastards, they blew up these ships in. And Sheridan just goes, that's it. We're, we're going for the colonies and then for Mars, and then for Earth, and we're gonna keep fighting and we're gonna keep going.

And if they knock us down, we're gonna come back again and we're gonna get 'em and we're gonna go, go, go. Something's about to go down and I've got a feeling, what, what do we have? We have like six, seven episodes left of the season right from here. Next week's episode 15, we go to 22. So seven episodes. So we're gonna start with a six episode crunch, this middle seven, eight episode, reset, world, build, do do what you gotta do to kind of get us in a situation.

I, I'm hoping, Jeff, I'm hoping beyond hope. That these next seven episodes, six episodes, are this tightly packed, you know, in the season like that. That'd be, that'd be so dope.

Jeff: yeah. I'd love it. What were your first reactions to this?

Brent: I, I liked this episode a lot. Like you, I really, I really, really did This episode to me, Jeff, was the perfect example of good writing, particularly in television, where you set up an audience's expectations and then you deliver on it. I know that it's super popular today to subvert expectations. It's the cool thing to do, man.

We're gonna do it this way, and then we're not gonna give it to you and we're gonna subvert your expectations because we're Hollywood and we're. Unfortunately that has become so commonplace that it's just not effective anymore. And honestly, it's annoying when you set me up and say, I'm gonna take you down this path and you start taking me down this path.

But then you took you, you take the sharp right, and you do something completely different. That's annoying to be honest with you. This episode was not that. This was, this was j m s telegraphing, everything that's about to happen. And then doing it in a way though that you didn't necessarily expect. Like that's where the genius of it comes in.

I'm gonna telegraph everything I'm about to do, but I'm gonna do it in a way you didn't expect, which makes good TV. And I'm here for it. And honestly, almo, the, the subverting expectations idea now to me actually seems lazy writing. I'm gonna set you up, I'm gonna set you up, then I'm gonna go do something else altogether cuz I can't figure out how to do what I told you I'm gonna do and do it in a cool way.

So I'm gonna go do something else altogether.

Jeff: and hope you forget about this really cool thing I set

Brent: right. Um, looking at you, star Trek Discovery season three

Jeff: and

Brent: or card season one and

Jeff: Two and we

Brent: two two was pretty much exactly what it was all the way through. That was a buzz for the Star Trek reference, not because I was wrong about Picard Season two.

Jeff: You were, but it's fine.

Brent: Hey Jeff, this is not a Star Trek podcast.

Jeff: I know. That's why I just said it's fine cuz that's the end of the conversation, so

Brent: Anyway, uh, yeah, so I quite like this episode. Uh, frankly, Jeff, I don't know that I have enjoyed an episode this much since the end of the war on shadow.

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: I really enjoyed this episode, but you are right. The first half of this episode was weird, particularly with the Delin stuff, because it didn't feel like anything was happening.

It was just Dylann walking around going, okay, well I guess we're gonna surrender now. And then Shakuri going, we're going to surrender. They're going to surrender to us. Woohoo. And then, okay, we surrender now. Like there was, there was nothing happening. They were just sort of doing until, you know, Dalen went full on Azlan on, uh, on Shakuri.

Man. Uh, question about Shakuri.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: that the same actor that played Duc? Kott does it sure seemed like it to me.

Jeff: Did it

Brent: His face seemed a little more round, like a little more pudgy, but he had a lot of the same mannerisms, a lot of the same, same look, that same like goatee look going on. It probably wasn't at all, but it just, it really.

Jeff: This guy seemed, this guy seemed kind of clumsy, just like big and oish and, and not in a way that the actor would have portrayed. Like, I feel like that was the actor, like the, not that the actor was bad by any means. I think he is exactly what he was supposed to be. But Duka just had an

Brent: dude, Duco glided when he walked. He was so cool, man. He was cool.

Jeff: yeah, yeah. Shaki was quarterback of his high school football team. He scored four touchdowns in one game. Like he's that guy and he never stopped telling that

Brent: Yep. Yep. Da dated the, uh, the, the head of the cheerleading squad and then never got past his high school. Glory days.

Jeff: Exactly. So he went, joined the military and became shy, elite and, and literally just like apparently let everyone play him like a fiddle. That guy just seemed wildly, politically

incompetent. 

Brent: Mm-hmm. You know, he, he gets to this, uh, I, I guess we're gonna talk about him since we're here. He gets into his monologue with, with him and Naroon and I, I wanna talk about Naroon for a sec. Last week we had some lots of discussion about Naroon and what was going on. Double agent or you said, is he a triple agent?

He's going back and forth. Jeff, let me, let me ask you, cuz I certainly had a take on it. What did you think was going on with Naroon as you watched this episode? Was he actually a triple agent through that or what was going on with him?

Jeff: The second he walked into the door and started going toe to toe with Shakuri. I was like, oh, this is him and Dalen. It's their plan like this. There's

no anything. Oh, yeah, like immediately I was like, okay. Yeah, they're just, they're just doing their plan. He's here to take down Shakuri and set something

Brent: Oh wow. I didn't catch that at all. No. Mm-hmm. No. Well, I, I, I read him, I think exactly as he was being. Which was Naroon is a warrior cast guy. He is for the warrior cast. He wants to see the warrior cast come over. However, when he's hearing Shakira begin to talk and Shakira says words like, um, what, what did he say?

Uh, uh, life and death are just, but two results for the Warrior. Like, either one's fine. I'm not saying death is something to be scared of or be frightened of, but No, no, it, it's better if we're alive

Jeff: Yeah, it reminded me, it reminded me of the, uh, the gem Hadar who would die before they went into a val into a battle, and then if they lived, that was the bonus, but they went into battle completely assuming they were going to die or were already

Brent: right. Or I mean, even the, the Klingons going, you know, today is a good day to die. Let's go die in battle. Woo. Um, there you go. Uh, but no, it's almost. Naroon has certainly been impacted by Dylan. He carries that, but he also is acting as a double agent. And now that he's in with his boss, I think we're watching him and you're looking, watching the look on his face where doubt is really beginning to creep in.

And you know who he reminded me of? Veer and Londo. And he is kind of doing that, like second guessing what he's doing. And I th and, and oh, oh, even better than that, Darth Vader from Empire Strikes Back once the emperor starts talking to Luke, where even through his mask, you can kind of see Darth Vader kind of going, Hmm,

Jeff: It's like

Brent: not right here.

Wait, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't sit right. This isn't okay. And at the end, Naroon pulls a full on dearth va. Where hes throws her out, but then for whatever reason, he stayed in the light. And, hi renounced by Warrior Cast. Hi. My heart is religious.

Jeff: And then he went, I, I didn't read it as doubt on his face. I read it as disgusted

Brent: Interesting. Okay. Hey, uh, you guys out there, um, if you're listening to this, email us to Babylon five first

Jeff: the number five and the word

Brent: and let us know how you read this. And if you're watching this on YouTube. Hi everybody at YouTube, comment down below, let us know cuz I'm, I'm, I'm really interested how the people out there, uh, took this or tweet us. You can tweet at us at Babylon. Five first, Babylon. First just Babylon.

Jeff: Babylon first. Yeah. Cause I think in this, what and where I really felt that he was already, like, he was just executing the plan was he came into Shakuri and I almost think he was like giving him a chance. Dude, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say these things. I'm gonna ask you these questions and like, I'm gonna give you a chance to show me that you're cool, cuz if you're not, like, I've already talked to Dalen and, and we're, we're gonna, we're gonna see this thing through.

And I think that when Shaki started monologue, he, not only was he disappointed in what he said, but he was absolutely just disgusted with it. And it just steeled his resolve where I think that's almost, I still think like, I, I, I still think that in Nero's heart he says, I'm, I'm religious through and through or whatever, you know, at the end, I, I still think though that Naroon specifically doesn't care about warrior cast or religious cast.

Naroon cared about Minbar Mbar

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: and I think, and, and I think that when Shakira was talking, that was his thing where he was just like, you are so one-sided in this. You, you, not only can you not see the other side, you're going to destroy the other side. When he just sees, I, Len said last week, he sees justice and he sees them in Bari, and I think maybe the only way culturally he had to express that was to change casts.

But I think that if, I don't know if there was more time given to this story or something, I could definitely see him being like, I renounced my cast and I am just naroon of minbar.

Brent: yeah. You know, you know what I find in that is, um, I don't know how things are up there in the northwest. Jeff, I've, I've told you, I was rating good old Kentucky, good old Kentucky boy, I love my home state to everyone who's in Kentucky. Hello. I miss home. I love you people. I really do. There are certain ways that I was raised, Jeff, certain environments I was raised in that as I've gotten older and more worldly and, uh, more wise, um, I've realized are absolutely abominable situations, ideals and things to be in.

I've grown, I've changed as an individual, you know, and I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect at all. However, I will tell you, there is still at times a, a like an initial response that is not good. And that response is a hundred percent ingrained in me as someone who was raised in this sort of situation. But then the grownup adult kind of comes in and goes, Hey, don't be stupid.

Let's tap that down. Like, like, there's that initial response and it's, you know, you know, as you, as you get a, an adult, like you have a filter now, like before it comes out, like it gets caught and you're like, no, no, no. I, I gotta, no, that's not good,

Jeff: Right. I like to think we all have this little,

Brent: uhoh. I don't know what's going on with the rest of you out there. Jeff just froze on me unless I'm frozen on him.

Jeff: yeah. I think, can you hear

me at 

Brent: can You are, yeah. You're getting weird on me, but now you're bad.

Jeff: Yep. Well, hold on. I just had a weird thing

happen, like my whole, my, my entire

Brent: Just wouldn't do your, okay. I'm glad to know it's you and not me, because at least it's,

Jeff: that

Brent: at least I know. Welcome to Behind the scenes here at YouTube, stuff that happens while we're in the middle.

Are you good? Yeah, you're fine. Yeah. You look good right

Jeff: Okay. I don't have the connection. That was weird. I wonder what

Brent: I don't know. Dunno, just up in the, in your I s P blame them. Xfinity.

Jeff: the best. They're the

Brent: Yes. Um,

Jeff: were, we we're talking about the Kentucky.

Brent: I was, I was saying about how sometimes you have an initial reaction 

Jeff: Yep. The guy, 

Brent: do what?

Jeff: I said, yeah, my, I have a story about a guy, so, okay. Yeah. I feel like we all have this guy who like sits right here, like

Brent: Your.

Jeff: the back of our throat, not on our neck, in our throat.

It's not a controller keeper person. We don't have one of those, but we have a like a guy with a flag in our throat and a thought comes forward and he's like, go ahead, go ahead. Or Nope, nope. And some of us are really, really bad at negotiating our union contracts with that guy and he tends to get longer breaks for a lot of us than others, and that doesn't always

work out 

Brent: you know, and I think that's where social media gets so many people in trouble because he lives in the throat and social media is accessed through the fingers, you know? And like you don't have the filter through the fingers that you need that guy who's in your throat going, Hey, nope, nope.

Don't do that.

Jeff: We need to get more innovative in how we hire and find these people. Cuz they we're, they, they're desperately

Brent: Right, right. But that's, that reminds me of Naroon. Like he, he is raised, he's warrior cast. He has a certain set of Val values and ideals and where he's going. But as he has interacted with Dylan and he's gotten more and more into leadership and he's seen how things are, I think you're right Jeff. He is more for Men bar than he is for the warrior cast, which is absolutely how it should be.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And it causes him to question the who and the why of how they do things and has resulted in a change. Jeff, I'll be really interested, uh, and I think this would be a great podcast topic about Babylon five when we're not doing re watches. Yeah. Like when we're just kind of doing topical conversations about Babylon five tracking Nero's character arc from where we saw him in season one.

And what's he, what's he had four episodes maybe.

Jeff: Something like

Brent: Four or five episodes, but tracking that story, that growth, and that journey from a dude who is pissed off at Sinclair and Lynn and the religious cast for stopping the war when we were on the threshold of victory to my heart is religious cast.

Jeff: You can see some of, cause like in legacies, like he was trying to frame Dylan and Sinclair and do all this horrible stuff. He had that peak apology that we always, that we talked about quite a bit and I always refer to, and then stuff happened and he was on the great council,

Brent: I forgot about the apology at the end of that episode where we're like, it was so solid. Despite everything. He was solid in that. I forgot about that, Jeff.

Jeff: And you should remember it cuz I think that's the moment when you came up with the theory that Sinclair was gonna be menari because he said, Naroon said to Sinclair, you sound like a

Brent: Yeah. That's right. That's right.

Jeff: It's like, yeah, of course I do. I actually, uh, wrote the books that told you how to be a minbar. I don't know that yet, but I voted did.

But then he went on, he benney to Len as in Tila after he the

great council stuff. But when he was in GR

Brent: after he took over the great council and took over her spot and was like, ha, haha, I'm Warrior Casta now we're in supermajority.

Jeff: and, and we're gonna maintain the racial purity of our people and then to go to, to where he ended. Yeah. It's an incredible arc. And I think I, I, you alluded to it a couple times and I don't, I, I understand why Dalen stayed in, in that beam of light. Like I understand. Um, look at me and look how sacrificial and powerful I am and how I'm gonna go all the way.

I get that with Dilen. I don't really understand why Naroon stayed in there. That doesn't, it, it's powerful. It was dramatic, but I don't get it. He could have easily stepped in, done, you know, got her out, stepped out, and then said, I am religious cast. And people could have said, yay. But at the end of it all Len's gonna ride this train that she saved in United Min Bar.

But what you and I know is Naroon saved

Brent: Sure. Um, so let me ask you this. When Dylann got in the light, Did it occur to you? It didn't really seem to bug her that much. Like there is a few little like, oh wow, that's uncomfortable. But she was just chilling. And then Shaki steps in and he's like, oh my God, that hurts. Ah, ooh, ooh. Ah. But Dalen was like, nah, I'm good.

Let's just hang out. Like, and she gets out of it after everything that happened. And you know what? She just got some sun on her cheeks, you know, she had the cane. Sure. But she, she looked like me after a day at the ballpark with my kids.

Jeff: Yeah, she, it didn't make sense. It just didn't make sense. She was in there longer than both of them combined.

Brent: Yeah. I, I almost wonder if it like, and I would, I would totally accept this as an explanation. Her half human physiology saved that somehow, that I would fully accept that as an explanation in the sci-fi.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: It'd be a cheap explanation, but I would, I would, or, or the other one that, uh, women are awesome and have a much higher pain tolerance than men

Jeff: Could be

Brent: and I'll 100% back that up cuz my god, what my wife endures silently is phenomenal.

Jeff: right?

Brent: Um, okay, so let's talk about reforming the great council, Jeff. Brilliant

Jeff: don't you C, hold on while I just take the clip from last week and drop it in here. And

Brent: Uh, Bri, I mean, brilliant. Absolute. I mean it was presented in, in, in a way that, that needed. Ha I don't know that I've really expected that to be the way it went down. Um,

Jeff: I'm curious what len's role is gonna be in it moving forward.

Brent: because it really seemed like, she's like, so you guys are the nine, you're gonna do this. But I called you forward.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And we're gonna leave this one space open to honor and aroon until she said this line, until the one who comes, or the one who is coming or something like that. Is it day one? Oh, is it she?

Oh, Sheridan's gonna come in and take over the great council, or, or for part of the, Ooh,

Jeff: because Sheridan is the one who

Brent: right. That's, uh, that, well, that was my first thought. I was like, well, that can't be Sheridan. And then I remembered you had suggested it could be David at some point.

Jeff: Yeah, because maybe he, because maybe there is the fourth one, the one who is com. There's the one who was the one who is the one who will be, and the one who is

Brent: That's what she said. The one who is coming.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: The one who is coming. Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. I read it as Sheridan when she said that, but it could also be David. But still it's does, does she appoint these people and peace out?

That doesn't seem in character for Dylan.

Brent: no. And I mean, and if she is going to be involved, On whatever level. Now it's a council of nine and the religious cast has one over on the Warrior Cist. Just, just 

Jeff: she comes in.

Yeah. And so where's, where's

Brent: she's a non-voting member of the, of the, the whole thing. I would really love to see, I I really wish that you, I really wish that your prediction would've been correct in that whether it was Naroon or Dalin would've just destroyed the cast system.

Because I will also say this, I've never truly been comfortable with the idea of a caste system. It seems so antithetical to a good society. Uh, whenever and whenever we think of caste systems here on Earth, it's never in a good situation and I can't imagine it being a good situation over there. Even when we heard about it on Deep Space Nine.

And Kira, and they had their, remember that was that one episode in Deep Space Nine where they wanted to take everybody back to their

Jeff: The other, the other emissary, the person who thought he was the emissary, came in, he's like, we have to go back to the cast

Brent: Right. And you gotta follow your Dejas. That was the word. Your deja.

Jeff: And immediately families were breaking up, uh, battle lines were being drawn like immediately. There was conflict amongst everyone.

Brent: So I really was hoping that the caste system would just break up altogether. Is that my third?

Jeff: I, that was, yeah. And I think I've done two. We're we're, we're running through 'em this time. Uh, but yeah, I think. Without completely changing the paradigm, which I think they would've needed more time to do effectively. This is a great, this is a great outcome. We talked about it at length last week, but it, it, it, it, it's the workers they build Dalen said it well, they build, they create, we destroy and take down.

So the ones who are building and actually enriching our society are the ones who need to tell us what

Brent: And she said this, she said this, we exist to serve them, not the other way around. And I was like, yes, 

Jeff: It's like, 

Brent: that is exactly what is true. Oh, Jeff, do you have anything else about this whole Linman Mari Civil War thing?

Jeff: Not

Brent: Okay. Um, if I could kick off our whole discussion about Gar Baldi and Lida and Buster and all of this, uh, can, can we just declare that, uh, Mr. Eggers is also, uh, Charlie from Charlie's Angels?

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Same dude. Gotta be.

Jeff: I have a, I have a different

Brent: Oh, what's that?

Jeff: I think Bester might be William

Brent: No,

Jeff: Ah,

Brent: no.

Jeff: so I'm gonna check off, finally gets to record a log. And in that log he basically tells us that he's the guy who programmed Gar

Baldy. What?

Brent: yes. And it's going well according to 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Here's the thing, was Besta really there to get leader or was he just there to check in on Garabaldi?

Jeff: I, I think that's what he was

there for. 

Brent: he's just there to check in on. And he, he told Zach right at the beginning, he's like, look, I'm not here for you. I'm not here for anybody. Uh, what are you here for?

I'm here for my own personal stuff. Get outta my way.

Jeff: Zack still

hassled him, 

Brent: while he was there, he took care of the lead stuff. It's two for one, you.

Jeff: right? He's there. Why not? Yeah, save the trip. I thought Bero was gonna come in and save him, but he did it. But also between that log and then right after that log, it went over to the call, um, with, with Edgars and you know, so he had to, he has to fire Lida cuz he hates Telepaths and doesn't want them around.

Zach said, there's never been a picture of this guy. Nobody knows what he looks like. According to Lisa's story, uh, was at, uh, a couple weeks ago, if I get my years right, they met in 2260, which is the same year just last. After fester's, uh, Carolyn, after his lover got iced by the shadows. So ster, we know fester's a busy guy.

He started, you know, the omega, the black omega, whatever

thing he's doing, all these medical experiments stuff. Why not start an intergalactic company and become a super

Brent: Well, he's also looking for whatever this thing was that lease was trying to get that does something for Telepaths, right? Or virus that targets Telepaths or something like that. Like he's looking for a cure. That would make all the sense in the world.

Jeff: so they say it's a cure. I think it's the virus

Brent: Well, that's how you find the cures through the virus, right? Like if you can map the virus, then you can find the cure, right?

Jeff: cor. I think so, but I don't think they're interested in finding the cure. I think they're interested in propagating a virus. Or, or based on what Ster said, with Lida, he's interested in figuring out how to ramp up people's powers. And maybe there's something in that. So this is my hair-brained theory is just that Ster is

Brent: Okay. So you just mentioned something that I actually spent a bit of time talking about this on the Brent Watches video, and to go back to the brilliant writing of jms. You know how you and I have been a little harsh, not harsh, I think fairly critical of this idea that nothing is dropped in the Babylon five universe.

If j m s lays it down, it's gonna come to fruition. And you and I have kind of been like, yeah, but what about this and what about that and what about this and what about that,

Jeff: And we've talked about doing the two hour long episode of dropped plot

Brent: right? Um, this episode, 100% could not have happened with Bester going to lead us saying, I want your body for when you die because you have been enhanced. And he basically said, look, we tried the Jason Ironheart thing. That didn't work. We tried putting two people together and breeding them. That didn't work.

We have not been successful at all in advancing Telepaths. You have been advanced. And we want to figure out why that conversation, that whole piece would not have been possible had it not been for Jason Ahart, for stoner, for all those lurker, telepaths down below with the rogues, none. This would not be anywhere near as important if we didn't have those pieces set up.

And I'm looking and if, if, if Ster is Edgars, I, I, I hate it. A hundred percent can do voice change automation. I'm not even worried about that. That is a caveat. I hate it and I love it. At the same time, Jeff, and if that's the case, because there's this thing that's gonna do something to Telepaths and Garrett Baldy has been, he's in something's going on with his head and he's doing something and this whole piece that while Sheridan is going off, half cocked on.

Um, Clark trying to solve that. Here's Gu, Baldy and Ster and Lida trying to figure out this whole thing with the Telepaths. Don't forget what the other thing the Telepaths did earlier that we saw, they teamed up with the shadows,

Jeff: Yes.

Brent: you know, and, and remember that scene where there was, there was Morden and then the Syop and the Senator, like all three in cahoots.

Well, now we've gotta, we've gotta deal with that.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, it's pretty

Brent: good writing. I'm just, I'm putting that down. Good, good writing throughout. Like this, this is a good pickup. I, I enjoyed this.

Jeff: I, and I think too, with, with all of that, it made, it made his offer to Alita honestly less creepy with all of that context. Anyway, one, it was hilarious. Well, I want your body, what, how dare you? I thought that was great. But when you, but when you, when you take the emotion out of it and you just look at the deal itself, she has to wear the badge, wear the gloves, and give 10% to the core, and then her body,

Brent: Did you, did you hear the phrase that, that Ster said about that? Which in the nineties would not have been a thing, but here in the recent times has become a big thing. He said you would be core in name only. She would be a sino or Akino, Keno,

Jeff: Akino Pino.

Brent: Yeah. She'd be, she'd be akino. A Cino. Oh, cino a syno.

Jeff: There you go. There you go.

Brent: um, I just, I thought that was funny.

Jeff: That was

Brent: For those of you, uh, outside of the United States, find an American friend and ask them, oh, why, why that's

Jeff: It's a whole, whole fun conversation. But yeah, so badge gloves, 10% of the core give up your body when you die from natural causes, but you get to go operate, you get to do your practice, you get to rock and roll, do whatever you want to

Brent: For the rest of your life.

Jeff: Yeah. It's not a bad deal. And, and I think given how hard ster specifically has worked to enhance telepaths and then having it right in front of you and, and take ster.

Take what people see as evil beter out of it, just out of sheer curiosity of how do we ramp up this superpower we have. We know beter won't hesitate to dissect someone

Brent: Because he did,

Jeff: to did it and just blurted it out. But no, with Lida, he's like, no, you go live your life. In fact, I only want your body if you die from natural causes.

Brent: I feel like there's a caveat that he could take advantage of, but whatever

Jeff: Probably maybe with that little virus that he's, that he's uh, trying to

get there is uhhuh. But no, I thought it was, I thought it was a good deal, but I also understand the trauma associated that, you know, for Lito, that last scene with her ring ring, it was pretty heavy. That's a heavy scene,

Brent: oh, I have two questions coming outta this whole thing.

Jeff: okay.

Brent: Um, one, just how far has Lee's liabilities been enhanced? Because she said, officially, I'm a five, but I'm way more badass than that.

Jeff: Even, Hey, what's your range now? 20, 30 meters? Yeah. No. What is it really? A lot more. A

lot more. 

Brent: So what, how, what ha what can she do? What is she actually able of doing? She immediately knew that best return on and scanned garabaldi. He didn't e he didn't even scan her. She just knew and Garra Baldi, like, man, he went ster.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Um, also speaking of Garabaldi, What path does Bestor need? Garabaldi to follow?

Jeff: I don't

Brent: I know I have no, this one, I have no idea where this is going. Not a clue.

Jeff: That's another reason why I, I have that Edgar's theory is like, because ster could never get Garabaldi to work for him. Never. But Edgars can

Brent: But why does he need Garabaldi? Why would he need Garabaldi? Like

Jeff: Well, cuz who, who else can, can waltz in to, you know, Sheridan's office and have information he knows stuff about.

Brent: just to get stuff through customs and babble on five, like.

Jeff: That's a pretty big deal when you're working with this stuff. Cuz, but the thing is, I don't think it's just Babylon five, like he's got contacts in on all the league worlds. He's got contacts on Minbar. Centara, the Narn. He's got, I mean he, he could go to Kar right? And ask for anything?

Brent: ster trying to destabilize Sheridan?

Jeff: I think so.

Or well, 

Brent: because didn't didn't, okay. Go back to things that got dropped. Didn't ster say Your war is now my war? I know that war is over, but still like,

Jeff: And really Buster's beef was with Sinclair.

Brent: yeah, but, but Sheridan really stepped at it as well.

Jeff: kind of picked it up. Cause I mean, we got zeto in by any means necessary that beers sent Adam and other people. Like that was kind of thing that was coming up. And then Sheridan immediately, you know, oh, you need to watch, go watch these episodes. Go, I've got, here's the, the VHS for mind war captain.

You can watch this and find out how this guy's a jerk water. And then immediate, like, they won't give that guy a second chance. But I loved though, when Garibaldi chased after him, after he scanned and he clocked him, and then he just kinda looks up and Zack's just looking at him. He's like, how's it going? Come on Mr.

Ster. 

Brent: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, by the way, uh, just to show how absolutely absurd it is, um, Gar Baldy turning everything around on Zach in that, in that moment, like, Hey man, you're, you're doing this isn't Lee. Oh really? What about everything having to do here? And what about this and what about that? Um, this is a classic case of something that is still relatively new to us called what about, I'm gonna point out what you did wrong, but instead of actually addressing it, you're gonna say, what about all this other stuff over here?

When actually the question is what are you doing?

Jeff: Yeah. As a manager, we call that deflection, right? And as it happens all the time, Hey, so you blah, blah, blah. Well, so-and-so, such and such, and you blah, we're not talking about so-and-so we're talking about you, and here's this, so let's, let's get in it. And I, the, the note I even made on it was a big part of gar of all these push was, I mean, everything, here's an illegal operation anyway, so I mean, why can you did.

Them making an illegal action like this does not justify your illegal activity. Whether we're illegal or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you're violating, violating rigs that you, you helped put into place. I love that Zach and Lida are clearly doing it.

Brent: Oh, you think you think they're that far? See, I 

Jeff: Oh 

Brent: I didn't, I didn't think they were that far just yet.

Jeff: I said

it's the, 

Brent: to become a thing.

Jeff: I said, uh, they're a hundred percent together and absolutely doing it. It's the subtle B five relationship cue for that. The way he just kind of put his own, his hand on her back,

Brent: Yeah, I, I'd, I'm, I'm totally here for them being an item. I, I just didn't think they had gone anywhere close to that far yet, but hey, if they have, I'm all for it.

Jeff: The only reason I'd say they hadn't is when he says, Hey, you gotta downsize. He should have been like, but I got some pretty sweet

Brent: Yeah. I just upsized, I got a promotion, I got a new one.

Jeff: Want to uh, wanna take up some of that room?

Brent: Um, hey, ster, I didn't, I didn't appreciate and it didn't work quite as well. I didn't appreciate the rip off of a Jeff Foxworthy joke where he, he says, he says, uh uh, it's nice to know that they're still hiring from the shallow end of the dream pool.

Jeff: Uh,

Brent: And I was like, it didn't, it didn't, it's a Jeff Foxworthy joke about, uh, marrying your cousin's redneck, you know, and I'm sure Jeff Foxworthy doesn't own the market on the phrase the shallow end of the gene pool. But, uh, it, it

Jeff: it was still

Brent: it, that particular joke just didn't quite come out. Although I think I did laugh at it, but,

Jeff: I think, I think how it followed up also like didn't do well either cuz he is like, uh, said something about humanity and he is like, humanity is my business,

Brent: eh, yeah.

Jeff: Mar Marley and Scrooge, huh? Well guess what, Mr. Garibaldi? Um, the actual quote, I'm gonna be that guy for a second. Uh, the actual line is mankind is my business.

And then Marley goes on to talk about like charity and welfare and benevolence is his business. So yeah. Not, not good, not good quote placement. Maybe not as well read as you're making people think you are. Maybe put him and Marcus in a room together and see you can get the dickens out of each other.

Brent: uh. So Jeff, other than that, I mean the setup for the next episode or the next bunch of episodes, the war is on. They're gone. We've got, we've got the league in place. The White Star Fleet has its backup with the Alliance. Um, GU Baldi is going to Mars. We heard that he's going to Mars, and so whatever's gonna happen there is gonna happen there.

I think we're probably gonna see more lease here in the near future. Um, we're, but, but they gave us the map. We'll go to the colonies and then we'll take Mars and then we're going to Earth and we got seven episodes. I'm assuming this is gonna wrap up by the season end. Uh, we got seven episodes to.

Jeff: Yeah. Yep. It's the path. We are, we're on it. And so at this point in the episode, we're at the point where we boil this all down. We're gonna check and see if there, this episode has any deep moral messages, any, uh, hold. Maybe it's holding up a mirror to society, maybe giving us hope that will be better in the future.

Doesn't seem to be a thing we've gotten much of in the series here lately, but you're gonna do that, Brent, by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five delta theories as to how strong the message or morals are and just how Babylon five they were delivered.

Brent: Well, Jeff, I, there was, there was a lot of good little lines that certainly could be, uh, brought out and every battle, one side or the other must eventually surrender. Yeah, like, that's a good point. Is it a big Star Trek message? Is it a big thing? Not really, but it's something you certainly could dwell on.

Um, I liked when Dalen said this, we surrendered, but we did not give up our sovereign rights. I thought that was really cool. However, I thought that there was one overarching glaring Star Trek specific message that was meant written in, intended by the writer. And it wasn't even a line that was said, it was just what happened.

Delin beats Shakuri. She ended the Civil War with knowledge, with discussion. With diplomacy effectively, that is such a Star Trek thing. If you didn't have to fire a weapon, no swords were drawn. This was, we're gonna look at what's going on. We're gonna outsmart you, we're gonna think about it, and we're gonna follow the rules, and then we're gonna test your resolve to see who you really are and see what's going on.

Um, you don't beat your enemies with muscles, you beat them with the brain. And in the end, she wound up winning over Naroon. Right? Because he saw the light may have actually won her over way before, or won him over, sorry, way before, but, you know, it became very, very public at that point. This is such a Star Trek thing, Jeff, that I'm, I am tempted to just go full five star Furies or, or Delta furries.

I'm sorry. However, The other side of that is how uniquely Babylon five was this story. And frankly, I don't think it was that uniquely Babylon five. I don't know that this particular Star Trek message is really Star Trek. Like this just is a message that exists in sci-fi I think a lot of times, right? It exists.

Um, in storytelling, uh, we call it a sci, a Star Trek message cuz it's there. But I think this also, you could have taken a same situation, put it in any Star Trek episode. Uh, you take the same situation, put it in Star Wars, put it in Dr. Who put it in, uh, battles, put it in any sci-fi situation and change your characters.

Change a little bit of dialogue here and there, but it plays the same. And so I don't think it was that uniquely Babylon five way. Um, Outside of just the fact it was minbar and things there. So unfortunately, that's actually gonna knock it down for me. But I do think that message is so strong. I'm giving this one for Delta furries.

Jeff: Here's all, I'll challenge you a little bit on how Babylon five it was delivered because that same approach was used by ster. Bester used knowledge, Bester used discussion, Bester used diplomacy to set up situations that basically forced Lida to come face to face with the reality she needed to sign that agreement.

So we have Dalen using that for the forces of. We had bester using it for the forces of what we're assuming is not

Brent: Does that,

Jeff: was the same

Brent: can I, can I ask though? Does that assume that Bester is Eggers and he manipulated that situation to push her back?

Jeff: It does, yes.

Brent: See, I'm not entirely sold on that idea. I'm not entirely sold on that idea, which

Jeff: I'm just saying two for two on big overarching thi. I had Valin, I had Anna. I'm just, I mean, maybe, maybe

Brent: I'm gonna stick with four Delta furries, but I appreciate it. I appreciate with where you're going. Besters is still, even, even though Baster would've done that, it was in such a shady way because Lida rejoining the core is not, uh, ster didn't do that for Lit's, um,

Jeff: benefit.

Brent: He did it solely for his own.

And the fact that he could g let her have some benefit to get her to agree to do it, no skin off his back, he doesn't care. It's not gonna affect him. You know, he's, he's really doing it for selfish reasons. So I'm gonna stick with four Delta Furies

Jeff: All right. Yeah, that works.

Brent: now, Jeff. You don't get a say in really what the delta furies are.

You could try to sway me. It didn't work this time. It has worked before in the past. Did not work this time, but you, my friend, get the final say today in the 100% completely, absolutely accurate and definitive ranking of season four of Babylon five because Jeff, you get to rank this one. Now I know where I would rank this one, but you, my friend, get to rank this one.

I'm curious where you're gonna put it, if it's gonna break the top five. Our current top five. I'll remind the folks playing along at home are number one into the fire. Number two, the long night. Number three, atonement. Number four, whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi. And number five, rumors, bargains, and lies.

Jeff, where do you place moments of transit?

Jeff: This is absolutely gonna be in the top five for sure. My question for myself is, does it plop in at number four or number five? I'm definitely put above rumors, bargains, and lies. That was a great episode. This was a better. Episode this was had more impact. It was better executed, everything about it. But then I look at whatever happened to Mr.

Garibaldi and at first, like when I first look at that episode title, I think of fun. Like I enjoyed so much of that episode, Marcus and Kar running around trying to find stuff. But the end of that episode, Kar and Chains coming in on on Sonari Prime was just, I mean,

Brent: Doesn't it feel like last season,

Jeff: It feels

so 

Brent: feel like season three?

Jeff: Yeah, it really does. And I think where I get it, where I'm going to put this one is based on my realization that the story threads laid out in that moment when Kar showed up aren't done. We could say it was finished when the Narn or when the Centara left the Narn home world, but we're seeing what Chiari's got his eye.

We saw him and Londo kind of come together a little bit in agreeing to let the, the white stars patrol. I mean, they were in a room together and they were civil. It was wild. So I think there's more to come from that

Brent: do you? Do you think Jaar noticed Londo sitting in the room with him?

Jeff: I know he said he hoped that he,

Brent: Pray. Pray. I don't notice you ever again. I think he might have noticed.

Jeff: I think he noticed him. Is that another plot thread that was

Brent: I don't know, but I really, but I really want the guba or it's time. Jeff, it is time for Lando and Kar as a buddy cop. I've called it for a couple weeks. It is time to get Londo and Kar as a buddy cop because frankly we have often talked about how awesome Jaar and Lando are together. We really have not truly seen it since season one.

Jeff: It's been so long.

Brent: haven't seen it since season one. It's time to get back to it.

Jeff: Agreed.

Brent: So you're

Jeff: based on that, Based on that and what's gonna come still from there, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call moments of transition, our new number five.

Brent: Um, I'm going to 100% totally agree with you on that one. I'm in full, full, uh, full agreement. It just means that it's probably gonna get knocked out, I'm assuming as the season continues to unfold here over the next bunch of.

Jeff: It's quite possible, we'll find out. And Brent, that's it for moments of transition. Next week we're watching the season Namesake. No Surrender, no

Brent: this is the, the, the title of the whole season, right? 

Jeff: It 

Brent: And it, what is it again?

Jeff: no surrender, no retreat. So we've never watched these episodes before. We don't read, read show descriptions, episode descriptions. We don't look at thumbnails, reviews, anything like that whatsoever. All we know. Is the title, no Surrender, no Retreat, and that's what this season is called as well. And this is the time we get to guess.

We make our predictions. What is this episode gonna be about based on that alone? Brent, what do you think? No surrender, no retreat will

Brent: Yeah. This one I think is gonna be real easy. I think we're starting, uh, with the, the plan that Sheridan laid out to the colonies first and then to Mars, and then on to Earth. So the white star fleet, along with the other people, they're gonna go to at least one of the earth colonies and kick this whole thing off.

You know, no retreat, no surrender. What's the one that we heard about? Uh, Proxima three.

Jeff: Proxima three. Mars are the two big ones. There was an Orion seven, I think that has been brought up a couple of times, but then other

than 

Brent: wasn't Orion seven like obliterated or something like that?

Jeff: I think so.

Brent: Like that wasn't, yeah, it was something like that. Um, I could be wrong. People out there are correcting me right now and that's fine. Um, but yeah, so I think we go to one of these colonies, whether it's proxima three or not, I don't know.

But we go to a colony and we start, and here we go. We're gonna go free the colon. You have seven episodes and we've gotta make it all the way to earth. So I don't think that these episodes are going to slow play much of.

Jeff: I agree.

Brent: What do you think?

Jeff: I think the exact same thing we're, I'll get specific though, and this is just me hoping, and this season has showed us that it's not afraid to bring things back from earlier seasons. So what I'm hoping for, whether, oh gosh, that is what I want now. You just changed my whole, right. There'll be some captain here in Sheridan.

They'll be like, let's settle it

Brent: Oh, swamp. Right, dude.

Jeff: Yeah, they're

Brent: No.

Jeff: we can't blow each other up. We're gonna do it this way. But you know how far off what I hope happens is they come out over Proxima or whatever colony they're gonna come out over. And one of the ships there is the Hyperion commanded by Captain Pierce.

If you remember Pierce, he's the guy who came in a voice in the wilderness to take over, um, the Clash

Brent: was the, the, the black guy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember who you talking about.

Jeff: yeah. He was great. I love, I think we loved Cal, he was a jerk to Sinclair, but he was doing his job and whatever I want to see, what I want is for Sheridan and Pierce to have a back, like a back, you know, a back history, like a friendship or something, and they have to like face off right there.

So I want, I want that callback and I want to have like, Sheridan leaning on, like, dude, when we were at the, the battle of such and such, or when we were this, you gotta, you gotta understand, man. So that's my

Brent: I still kind of wanna see Leona Kimmer come back.

Jeff: I think she got blowed up

Brent: Oh yeah.

Jeff: when, uh, when, uh, Santiago's ship got blowed up. I think she was on on it.

Brent: That could be, could be, could be. Um, I wouldn't be mad if that turned out to be right. But you say something that I don't think's gonna happen necessarily in the next episode, but whenever we do eventually get to Earth, wouldn't it be so. If like the last ship, the last line of defense is the aga Memon is Sheridan's old ship.

Jeff: wow.

Brent: And, and maybe he takes it back over, maybe they defect to him, something of that nature.

But the aga memnon comes back into it and, oh, and Sheridan has to take command of it again or something. Like they seize it or whatever. Like

Jeff: Like his white stars going down and the is only like we got a lightweight, I can get onto the aga mk. He goes on and they're just like, captain Sheridan, yay. And then he takes down earth from the aga Emon. Oh,

Brent: that'd be something.

Jeff: that'd be sweet. Well, we're not gonna find that out anytime soon, but we will find out what happens in no surrender, no retreat next week.

Thank you all for joining us. We appreciate it so much. Please subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. Leave a rating on a review so we can read it here on the podcast and share this podcast. You just click a little share button. You send it to your friend who's either already in love with Babylon, five, has never seen the show, or is ready to fall in love with this incredible series.

So Brent, until next. Y.

Brent: Um, do you remember that scene in this episode where Dalen surrendered to Shakuri?

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Okay. Well, I wanna rewrite it a little bit because I think one little rewrite, one little line at the end would make the entire thing better. Okay? So, so I wanna rewrite it. Um, I'm gonna be, I want you to be shakuri.

Just follow my lead. Do, you'll know exactly what to do. Okay? Cool.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: All right. You ready?

Jeff: let's do

Brent: I surrender.

Jeff: You what?

Brent: I surrender. I can't compete with you anymore.

Jeff: So are you saying that I'm stronger than you?

Brent: Stronger but not wiser. Yeah. Big old dummy.

Jeff: Oh, man. In Valen’s name.