June 27, 2022

Parliament of Dreams

G'Kar must die!

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

G'Kar must die!! And we're going to celebrate every species' dominant religious belief. Will Jeff and Brent want to celebrate with the Centauri or the Minbari? Or, will they want to help the assassin out??

Catch Us On YouTube For the Full, Unedited Episode: https://www.youtube.com/c/Babylon5FortheFirstTime Follow us on Twitter: @BabylonFirst Website: https://www.babylon5first.com/

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B5 Parliament of Dreams

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time. My name is Jeff akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time. Brent, Brent, Brent, we're doing a podcast. We're on

Brent: oh, okay. You go, go ahead and start, man. They'll go ahead and start.

Jeff: Okay. Oh, I did.

Brent: Oh, it's my turn.

Jeff: my 20 minutes in. We've been going for a while, but you can start at the top.

Brent: Okay. And I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time. We are two veterans star Trek, podcasters watching Babylon five for the very first time. And we are searching for star Trek, like messages within this series that was supposed to be like a rip off or star Trek was supposed to rip off of it or something of that nature.

I don't know. That was a thing way back in the day. And we're also trying to decide if we should have watched this one sooner.

Jeff: and while this is not a star Trek podcast, like we literally say that in the title of this thing, we're going to pull in the references. Like if you're not watching this on YouTube, I'm wearing a deep space, nine t-shirt as We record this. Right. So this is what's going to happen. But to help us out with this, we've decided that we're going to have a rule where each of us can only make up to three star Trek references per episode.

And whenever we do, you're going to hear that. But last week, Brent, we didn't even come close to our three. No. So is this like 80 and T? Do we get rollover minutes

Brent: Oh,

Jeff: What do you think?

Brent: no each shows a new show,

Jeff: so here's um, so I agree there, but you know what we did do a lot of last time, we did a lot of star Trek comparisons in the part that we literally called the star Trek comparison, like part of the show,

Brent: right?

Jeff: do we need to meet her that somehow

Brent: because that's, that's literally that part of the

Jeff: of, that's kind of the point.

Brent: you know, and I mean, frankly, as people have actually even said in comments on YouTube and various places, like we are what we are, we're star Trek, podcasters, and the gist of this show is watching it and kind of comparing it to what we know is star Trek, podcasters, and, and applying that lens in that filter.

So we're going to say, and we're going to say him, but, uh, no, I don't think we get to carry them over,

Jeff: Right. It's

Brent: this, this is a two man democracy. So, you know, you could still make it through.

Jeff: Oh, you know, we can stalemate. And then we could ask all of our incredible listeners to break that tie, but I think we're gonna have a tie. It.

Brent: Um,

Jeff: I'm good. Keeping it to three, an episode. This cause it could get pretty. It can get pretty out of hand, but you mentioned comments, right? Comments, reviews, emails.

You've been incredible. We've heard such incredible things. We love, love, engaging and interacting with you. And Brent, I wanted to take just a couple of minutes. I want to read some of the comments we've gotten. Does that sound cool?

Brent: Hey man, let's settle it. Cause this is probably going to be the best part of this whole episode. Be Frank with you. Let's go.

Jeff: All right. So I picked a couple coming into here. Uh, so we're on YouTube. If you're listening to this again, we're on YouTube. And if you haven't watched this on YouTube, you need to know that that's just our unedited video. It's us going. You get to see warts and all, and I am talking about our appearance, but I'm also talking about the process.

You get to see the sausage made. So definitely check us out on YouTube, but

Brent: it's, it's, it's probably more fun to be on.

Jeff: a lot of fun. We are two wild and crazy guys after. All

Brent: Right. Middle-aged dude.

Jeff: right. What con 1670 on YouTube says it says, LOL, you lost me when you complained about TACA Shima being replaced first. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it gets better first. She was beyond terrible. Couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag. that?

being said, enjoy the show. Season one, as a kin to next gen season one, as it's generally not very good, but it has some gems here and There Things do really pick up closer to the end of season and seasons two to four are really good. you know, my favorite thing about this comment, he used my name cause akin, akin.

It's always hard for me to read it that way.

Brent: There you go. Um, well, con.

Jeff: 16, 70.

Brent: Thank you Khan 1670, uh, for that. And first of all, how dare you? 'cause Tashima was awesome. Now I will give her, now I may be giving her like first season pilot episode passes two, just to be fair, but I really liked her. Like I wanted to see more of her. Like I saw, I saw just enough that I was like, she's going to go somewhere.

And frankly, honestly, it's what I saw in, I have a Nova, the first episode that she came in, like I saw enough that I was like, okay, I think I'm going to like her, but, uh, you know, and, and I'm right. The more I see Ivan over the more I really, really like her. She's she's becoming a favorite character for sure.

Jeff: A hundred percent. Well, and honestly, I, you know, and so here's, we're going to say this again a couple of times, please, Please.

Don't spoil things for us. Don't hint at things, anything like that. So someone did, I'm not going to read their comment, but it's just it's um, appropriate to this and a message they had sent that, um, talk Ashima in the originally aired piece.

They actually had her go in and ADR all of her, um, all of her lines because she was too harsh. And so I think if people watched this initially they saw like re looped vocals that they tried to soften her up a little bit. And what you and I watched was the original performance that I th I had no problem with.

I thought she was great.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just to that point, even even saying things like, oh, well you need this episode because it sets up X, Y, Z. I don't want an, I don't even want to know if it sets stuff up, you know, because this is a fully clean, we know nothing about this show. This is a fully clean first watch show. And, and, and I don't want to know, just sit back and just say here, here's what you can say.

Just wait.

Jeff: Yeah, well, or, or what you can do is what Sean van Damme at damn Sean, it's S C a N said to us on

Brent: He, he wins the Twitter naming category for tonight.

Jeff: totally a hundred percent, but you can get us at Babylon first on Twitter. And this is the perfect, the perfect way to spoil things for us. He says really enjoying the episode so far. I think I need a buzzer for every time I say, oh, they're going to go there.

Or yeah, no, no, no. That's not a throw away thing. That's the tweet. It's perfect.

Brent: fantastic because that's exactly what we want to not know

Jeff: Yeah. That's

Brent: at all.

Jeff: work your way through those negatives. We do not, not want to know this, not negative thing, but yeah.

Brent: right. We will discover it when we get like, like here's here's, here's where I'll tell you, you can do that. If Jeff and I get to a spot way down the line. Where something is a callback to like the first episode. Once we get to that one, like way down the line and we miss it pointed out, I'm cool with that.

But don't tell me that this is going to come back later. Like I don't even want to know. I don't just let me live in the idea that this was stupid. And then let me be surprised and let Jeff be surprised. Not just me, it's us,

Jeff: we'll be, we'll be surprised

Brent: It let us be surprised when it comes to that can turns out not to be a waste.

Jeff: Yeah. And that this whole

Brent: feel like, I feel like I'm yelling. I feel like I'm yelling at people too much now,

Jeff: I know, but I think we want to keep it fun. Right. But we also want to, we want to be true to what we're doing. I'll do one more here.

Brent: Every once in a while we got to lay it down on

Jeff: exactly like no more spoilers.

Brent: Right. All right. So wait, we've had a YouTube. We've had the second one was a Twitter comment.

Jeff: Yeah.

So I'm going to do one that we have from our website. So we have a website Babylon five first, the number five first.com and

Brent: that, is that like a one S T or is it like.

Jeff: it's spelled out. So Babylon the word, the number five F I R S T on there, Babylon five first.com. Yeah.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: Cause Babylon five right? It's just, yeah. It's how you do it. So Patrick sent us an email through there.

We've got a thing. You can send us emails. I'm going to read part of it. He has a great email. He wrote, and I'm going to read the first bit. He says I came upon your podcast on Stitcher. Hi Stitcher. Good to have you here. And I consider myself fortunate. I found your show very nearly at the start of this epic series.

You see, as a science fiction fan, I have a soft spot for Babylon five. Not only do I remember watching it.

in the night. Not an easy task since it was frequently subject today in time changes, sometimes switch channels before finding its final home on TNT. But he's also got the entire series. All the movies, both attempts at a spinoff series and the last stories from 2009, I've also got Jay Michael Stravinsky's autobiography becoming Superman and audiobook read by Peter Jurassic Londo himself.

So thank you, Patrick. There's a lot of stuff. I have no idea there was lost stories.

Brent: know that there was a reboot attempt in 2009. Is that going to be a part of this show

Jeff: I don't know.

Brent: signed on for 110 episodes and then maybe a movie or two,

Jeff: Well, I did, I did think too. It might be fun for us just on this knowing I liked the name of his book becoming Superman. like

maybe we listened to that and that's one of the ways we kept this thing off

Brent: Yeah,

Jeff: yeah, We'll see. We have a long ways to go though,

Brent: Yes. We're on episode five. We'll figure that out then.

Jeff: Horse get back in order.

Brent: There we go. There we go. Well, thank you, Peter.

Jeff: That was Paul and Mary. Sorry.

Brent: Ringo. Uh, thank you, Paul. Uh, you're awesome. Thanks. And Jeff, this is going to sound like a setup. Like we scripted it, but we totally have.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Because I'm going to ask you because I actually don't know if people wanted to write to us, how do they actually do that?

Jeff: Yeah. So I, I re just, here we go, go to our website, Babylon five first.com and just click contact right there. Makes it super easy. Yeah. And that's going to pop into my inbox. So you'll be talking to me and then I can share that with Brent and we'll share it yeah. Here on the podcast as well.

Brent: There you go. You can also leave us a ratings and reviews. I know at iTunes, I don't know from podcasts chaser yet, but we should be, uh, so pod chaser. And if the app you're listening to us on allows you to do ratings and reviews, please do all of that because basically it just says to other people, Hey, these guys are fun and cool.

And you guys should listen to them too, because you also enjoy us. And if you don't do it anyway in life, they'll never know that you're lying to

Jeff: exactly. It's fine. It's okay. It's okay.

Brent: Yes. All right, Jeff, let's get to today's episode today. We are discussing parliaments of dreams, which is an episode that has exactly bupkis could to do with dreams or parliaments.

Jeff, I can't even with this episode right now, spoiler alert to my opening thoughts. So for those who haven't seen this one in a while, Jeff, you got to take this one pal. I

Jeff: All right, let's do this well, it's Christmas time. It's oh, I'm going to do that over again. That's for you, YouTube. Well, it's Christmas on Babylon five. Wait. Nope. Nope. It's Passover on Bev. Nope. Well, actually, it's all the things is the earth central called for a week of celebrating each and every species dominant religion on the station.

What a festive time for everybody, unless your name is ambassador Dzhokhar. That's right. Dzhokhar's back. So's Londo. So's DLN in fact, almost everybody is in this episode except for

Brent: even get the bug dude,

Jeff: Yeah. I love,

Brent: we got the bug dude,

Jeff: He's been so bugged dude has been in this episode more than Talia or CAUTI have been in the series.

So I'm going to guess there's seven Talia is in the opening credits. So hold your car, Porsche car shocking. I know, but he has made some enemies amongst the NARKN and one of them derog hates him so much that with his dying breath, he hired an assassin from the Assassin's Guild. The Denta Macor to kill.

Well, he's being ultra paranoid and we have the opportunity to celebrate the Centauri and men Bari religions, Sinclair runs into an old flame, Catherine. They went to the academy together and they've been on again off again, ever since Dylan Dylan finally gets an aide like veer CODO for the Centauri and code auth for the NARKN.

Oh Nope, Nope. Cutoff had an unfortunate accident with an airlock. And so now we have a new aide for Dzhokhar who's equally as aggressive and strong as code auth was and its net hos well, the lens aid linear it's quiet. He's shy. He's by the book and absolutely in awe of DLN. So Dzhokhar suspects, everybody of being the assassin and he knows that he's close to the end when he wakes up.

With the horses head. And I'm sorry, with a black flower in bed with him, the assassin finally strikes and it was Natasha all along. Nope, Nope. Nope. That was a ruse. Also just a Russo. She could save his bacon from the actual assassin Chikara and the top hit it off and look like they're going to work really well together.

They send the assassin to Pari off and they set it up. So it looks like he's violated Assassin's creed. The Fenton Macor are eventually going to find him and they're going to kill him. It's delightfully delightfully evil. Well, Sinclair seems to have also found a new partner. He and Catherine are going to give it an actual go this time.

Uh, Brent, you kind of gave a little spoiler there, but people don't necessarily know This about you, but you have a formal education in religion. That alone makes me want to know what you think about this episode.

Brent: This episode was boring and it, that is the absolute worst thing. An episode can be, in my opinion, make me mad,

make me angry, make me laugh, make me feel something. None of that is as bad as being boring. This, if this podcast today, Jeff winds up only being about 15 minutes long, then that's fine because the, okay. The best part of this whole episode was the storyline with Dakar. It took about 15 minutes of the 45 minute episode.

Jeff: that really.

Brent: Right? And like the rest of it was just boring. And I mean, we kind of get the pay off at the end with the, you know, Sinclair going down the line and, and. All the earth religions, or at least what we think are all the earth religions there's among people that never got named. Um, and, and I mean, that's kind of like a cool little thing, but like, it was, I just, I didn't care at all.

Now that being said,

oh, and the whole Kathryn thing was Sinclair. Like, here's the, here's the thing about Sinclair. We've talked about this in the last couple of episodes. They've done nothing to make me care about Sinclair. I don't care about him. I don't care about his old loves. I don't like, he's just a guy right now. And like, I really need them to help me, you know, uh, care.

I will tell you the thing I loved about this episode though. I loved Natasha. I am so glad they brought her on because I think that. Is going to be the beginning of a beautiful relationship, because I got to tell you, they got me.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: They got, because when she came in and they're all, like I said, you know, it's not going to be her because it's too obvious, which means it probably is her.

And when it turns out to be this other guy who, by the way, I don't know who this other dude was. Uh, the actual assassin. I loved him too. His makeup looks. So I loved him as a character. I was like, please let this guy stick around because I like his stuff was better than Dzhokhar. I thought he was so good.

His car, his car, he had just a character that came through beautifully.

Jeff: wore glasses for some

Brent: yeah. Oh, he was so quirky. He was great. And then when the talk comes in and she's like on the backup and I'm here to make sure you finished up and she takes it to Jakarta. Remember a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about what happens if Shakara and Londo actually get into it.

And you talked about Kevin Nash and Rey Mysterio. She did that to Jakarta.

Jeff: yeah. totally. So she was Rey Mysterio. Turn it onto, onto Nash.

Brent: Exactly. And, and she put it through them. And then when it turns out like that was all a ruse to actually out the assassin, who's actually the real assassin. Like it was like, that was the best part. That was the part that made me go, okay, this is cool.

The rest of this episode, I just didn't care that it was as boring as Dylan's new assistant.

Jeff: right. Wow. That guy I couldn't have got Linaire could not have cared less when he walked in, but I want to talk about the fight a little

Brent: Let's talk about it. Let's do it.

Jeff: so you brought up the makeup on there. There's this was just like, this was such a highlight for the NARKN period. Everybody derog was great. I loved his little ma like his, his message to him.

He looked like old NARKN it looked really good on the TV screen. Um, I lived, well, I'm going to die even better, you know, kind of thing. I mean that fight scene before the fight scene, even when Dzhokhar wakes up in that. black flower, they do the horses head scene from godfather, but he's just got like this robot.

So you see like his is his belly and his chest and they got the makeup and the costume on there. It's seamless. It

Brent: I missed

Jeff: oh my gosh, it looks so

Brent: wanna know why? Cause I was so bored. I wasn't paying attention to the screen,

Jeff: Well, and frankly like the pacing, they're like, it's like, oh, this thing's happening. And now he's in bed. And now there's the flower. They just mentioned that's oh God, that's

Brent: well, but the, the time from when we saw the flower to the time where he actually woke up and screamed felt like it was way too long. Like, you know what I mean? Like you could edit some of that down,

Jeff: But his scream was awesome, but the makeup was so good. All of it. But when Natasha Natasha comes in and she starts, I mean, just kicking the living bejesus out, I mean, just.

For the faults that the editing hat and the pacing had that we just talked about, this was perfect. The cuts to her, the actor kicking to the cuts off of the stunt person, doing the kicking we're near seamless. It looked great. Kicked him out of the thing. Then Dzhokhar gets up ultimate warrior, gorilla, press slams to Pari the assassin and just hucks him into the, I mean, it was great in the makeup because these are stunned people, you know, taking these hits.

And so they, they invested the time and the makeup for them. It, Yeah.

the scene, the timing was great. The writing was great, but the makeup and the lighting, ah, So good.

Brent: So good. I like, and I don't want to take anything away from Dakar or the guy who's playing Dakar. whatever his name is. I don't remember his name. I'm like, they're fine. And I'm not asking for them to be replace, but like I, these two new NARKN specifically. And I know to PAARI was that his name? He's not going to be a part of the show going forward, which is

Jeff: Well, I don't know. I don't know. Cause they let, they sent them off with like the, the Assassin's creed or

Brent: oh, I'm turning it, turning that on him where he now has to live with. Like, that was, that was fun. This was, again, this was 15, maybe 20 minutes of the whole episode. Like if this was a, if this was a half hour show, that would have been perfect. Take everything else out. That part would have been perfect, you know?

But the rest of it, I was just, it just was not good. But again, to go back to like the ma like all of that stuff, but even like the, the storytelling turn we're going to talk, I was like, sorry, I had to hit you so hard, but that's the only way that I could actually knock those things off of you. Okay. Can we talk about this pain givers?

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: the best word you can come up with to tell me what these things are. It's a pain giver.

Jeff: have a same writing team, same writing team from avatar, where they're like, Hey, we're going to have this really great thing people have to get, well, what are we going to call it? Unobtainium Yeah. That's wow. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. Actually I can even go with unobtainium cause it sounds like something out of X-Men, you know,

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: but

Jeff: but pain

Brent: that cheesy, yeah. Pain, it's a pain giver. It's a pain giver. What, what, what are those rooms in star Trek that they the, in the mirror universe that they throw people into

Jeff: right? The agony booth.

Brent: the agony, but like, that's a cool name, right?

It's the agony booth, right? They agonize or put them in the agonize or

Jeff: I think it's a lost in translation. The Narin probably have some awesome name for it, but in broken English, it's

Brent: Don't give me that. This is people writing in a writer's room who just had no creativity when it came to that. Like it's like in my head. They're sitting around. Okay, what are we going? Like, I want them to have wrestled with what to call this. And they got to a point where they just said, you have to put something down.

You have, you have to come up with a name. What are we going to call it? Let's call it a pain giver, man. I got nothing. I've tried. Like I wa I need to know that they tried and they failed and somebody got fired for it. Maybe not,

Jeff: I need heads to roll. Now when, when I get, when I go through my thoughts, I have thoughts on the writer's room. And I, and I want to think the same. I want to think that something happened and they lost two days or Something. Cause there's a couple of things that happen in this where it's just like, really that's, that's what you gave us.

Like we've got this Dzhokhar thing. That's brilliant. Right, I mean, it's well done, but this is how you give it to us. Well, all right. Okay.

Brent: Couch it. And the rest of this. Okay. Can I talk about something else that I thought was brilliant? I don't know if the writers wrote this or if the actor did this. Drunk Londo getting up on the table, picking up a statue and kissing the goddesses, booty,

Jeff: goddess of passion, at

Brent: of passion, full lips to the right cheek, kissing her boom, like that wa and then he passes out hilarious.

Ha Larry, us,

Jeff: he didn't just pass out. He was like in touch with his you know, something. So he was a religious experience. Yeah. Like,

Brent: And, and bald he's like, dude, he just passed out. He was like, well, yeah, that too.

Jeff: It's like, well, yeah, but, but also, also this deeply, deeply spiritual thing,

Brent: Right. I w I wish, uh, uh, you know, every time, every time you drink, you'd be like, nah, man, I'm just getting in touch with my inner self that's.

Jeff: some meditation that I did.

Brent: I don't even drink that much, but, you know,

Jeff: I can't anymore. Like, not that I ever did a whole ton, but it's just the age. yeah,

Brent: It gets your man. He catches up

Jeff: 22 anymore.

Brent: Yeah, here. Okay. You asked me as a, as a person who has a formal religious training, obviously the downside of this episode, the snore Fest of this was going through all these various religious ceremonies.

Again, the, the biggest problem with it was I just didn't care or the Lord's would, we should do this. I didn't care. And I didn't understand them. And I didn't want to go through them. Now, that being said, kind of watching them was, was neat. Would've been more neat if each one had a chance to be a B plot in their own episode sprinkled throughout the year.

You know what I mean? And, and you had a chance to actually look at the culture and, and what that says of their, of that particular one, rather than trying to cram all of these. And do you remember, okay, I'm gonna use my second one. I don't care. You remember the episode and deep space now? Where Jadzia got to meet all of her past

Jeff: Oh, yeah.

Brent: Um, yeah, there we go. They crammed all of that into one episode

Jeff: Each host could have been.

Brent: right. And, and like, I think she's number seven, right? So she meets six of them and five of them happen within like a 10 minute period or five minute period. And then they spend the other bulk of the episode on the last one. Right. And, and like, it was just too compressed.

Like I kind of wanted at some point Dax to go back and interact more with some of those other, other characters, because I think I was kind of interested in what went on with them. Right. I really wish that they would have sat in this and taken their time to go through with these religious ceremonies and bring something to it that makes you care about it.

The idea that the men Bari their religious celebration actually kind of looks like a marriage as well. So you're not really sure which is.

Jeff: right.

Brent: Like that's, I need an episode on that because you can do some stuff with

Jeff: Well, the way

Brent: just didn't explore it

Jeff: and the way they dropped it just like as an afterthought with like, well, did you eat this? Did you do this? Oh, well then it could have also been a wet. W really, you're just going to drop that in here. And so I watched this one twice and I watched it. Yeah.

well, I, I missed, I missed a lot cause I got, I got literally the first time through, I got my phone out and I was like, oh, what's happening in the world.

I'd rather look at what's happening in the world right now than watch this episode. But, so I went and watched it a second time and I was just like, I could see more, like, I, I would not be surprised if there's something where Dylan saw this as some sort of connection with Sinclair or something also. And here I'm going to, I'm going to trigger Sean Vandam a little bit.

Maybe that was just some throwaway thing where they're like, we should probably add a little meaning to that religious thing, because we did two of them in need of a mentor.

Brent: Right. Um, while you're on the Linn, I think the whole conversation that she had in the corridor with the assistant where don't call me, , that's going to bring up questions that I'm just not ready to answer. Like we're already on that page. This was our conversation on soul hunter. Two episodes go to episodes, three episodes, go, whatever it was.

Jeff: recently.

Brent: Yeah. Like we're already on that page. I'm glad they brought it up again and they just haven't let it go. Like, there's going to be here. There's a thread. Now we're seeing the thread develop. So I'm glad they did it, but they still did nothing with it. They didn't advance it. They just reminded us. And I, I need them to take that next

Jeff: I think I'm okay. Honestly with it. It's cause like you said, it was just a couple episodes ago that we learned this and what this did for me is it showed me. He wouldn't make eye contact with her, you know, and I like to respond. She was like, I won't have an aide that won't look at me. You know, who's always looking at the floor, you'll fall or whatever, but he, the fact, like she had to coach him and tell him it since.

Cause he's so just like your tie, you know? Oh. And, so reminding us as the viewers, because it's been a while, at least two episodes since you've even seen or had Dylan mentioned, so reminding us, but also big deal, like this is clearly a big deal. and so she's squashing it. I think if they hadn't addressed it, it could have gotten weird at some point.

Like why is he just calling her Dylann if he holds her in such high regard? Oh, because she explicitly told them to.

Brent: And, and I can see where like that conversation and introducing this character and all of that, I can see how that is going to be super important later on. And I even recognized that while it was in the middle of it, like, I can see why that's there. That does not make this episode anymore.

Jeff: No,

Brent: It did not save this episode.

Like I can see the introduction of Catherine. She's probably going to become a character that we see throughout the course of the

Jeff: I think we're going to get the drop in, right? It's going to be the Cassidy Yates of, uh, there's mine of, of Babylon five. Right. You know, she's out served and Cassidy eights was doing her cargo runs and doing things got wrapped into a really cool Maki storyline went to jail. I mean, just excellent stuff.

Cool stuff they did with her Catherine right out doing her survey stuff. Is something going to happen there, right? Where she's off doing something nasty that Sinclair has to make a call on. So Yeah.

I'm, I'm here for the Catherine stuff in there, but on the Dylan Lin linear thing, like that scene was like four or five minutes.

It was very long. Did they spend to make that point? And it took a little, it felt a lot longer than it than it was.

Brent: I can just say point taken it's hammered home. You don't have to hammer it anymore. Like I got it. I'm, it's locked in. What's the next step in this whole like, cause I want to know what's the next step. Just please do it in a more interesting way. That's all I'm asking. Like,

Jeff: too, we were talking earlier about, you know

we signed on for 110 episodes or whatever. That's not. that many episodes, you know? And so Yeah,

like I can, I can sit here and say, no, it worked for me. It was just a couple episodes ago we learned, but also you've got limited time to tell this story.

Brent: yeah, yeah. Um, the only other thing I had really was, um, back to the Centauri celebration where we see the females, the females, again, that they have the bald head with the Egyptian prince. I know where we were kind of having that question a few episodes ago. Like, is this how all females are? Is this whatever, like, apparently this is going to be the difference between the males and the females in the Centauri.

And that gets confirmed. Um, they had that, oh, I'm kind of nothing really to do with the episode itself, but we learned a few things. First of all, the opening credits have changed to include scenes from the last couple of episodes. Super cool. It's kind of like Marvel

Jeff: Right. Yeah. Builds up each time.

Brent: Um, so we have that, but then the other thing that we learned, just a couple of factual things about the station.

I actually freeze frame these and took a picture so that I could, I could look at them cause I was just really curious. And I'm a nerd like that. The very opening, well, I guess it's the second shot of this episode where they're in custody. And Garibaldi is having the conversation about the dude with the knife.

That was not important at all.

Jeff: well, it's important to people who played mass effect because that scene actually plays out in mass effect just

Brent: no,

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. They it's. Yeah. Almost, almost beat for beat. It

Brent: Like they, they intended it as an Omaj for Babylon

Jeff: I don't know, but like when I, this is the second time I watched it, I'm just like, this is that conversation that was happening in the, in the Citadel.

Oh, well maybe it's that

Brent: cool. Brent doesn't play mass effect folks, but Jeff does. And I know there's, we've had some comments that people are like yeah. Bass effect. So yay for people who love mass effect. Anyway, the signs, the signs that were up in customs, this one says atmosphere caution.

There are six different atmospheres currently available on B five. Didn't know that. And it also says that others may be created by part prior arrangement. Uncommon atmospheric makeups may be synthesized for encounter suits for specific. Uh, Tom or at Mo chemical, whatever. And then again, it gets cut off by the, by the end of the screen.

So anyway, just a point of fact, there are six different atmospheres and we see them go between different atmospheres from time to time. Right. Which is kind of cool. So just a, just a world-building thing that if you don't look at like, it's, it's right there, but they have the ability to create new ones as well.

Like they're not just limited to that. Um, it also says this, uh, in a second, in the second picture that, uh, time on Babylon five is on earth, meantime, E M T so, uh, oh gosh, here. I'm gonna use my third one. So, you know, like in star Trek, like they say like, oh, they keep us on Starfleet time. Like all star ships, no matter where they are is on San Francisco time.

Just to keep everybody on the same page. Exactly. Because there is no day or night in

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And then that way you can keep common time or I'm going to meet you owe 400 great debts this time for everything. Yeah.

Brent: Right. Uh, and it goes on to talk about, uh, you know, exchange rates and different things like that. Babylon five is administered by the earth Alliance. I don't think I've, I've probably heard the phrase earth Alliance before, but it's not stuck out to me. You have to go where we talk about the different states that, that, uh, the countries are now in.

Um, and then there's another one that's real blurry. You couldn't get a clear shot on, but talks about there's three basic gravity, and then it gets cut off and things are engineered to people's needs as well. And then blah, blah, blah. So three different types of gravity,

Jeff: six atmospheres

Brent: and we're on earth meantime.

Jeff: That's cool stuff to know, but also what incredible attention to detail for a mid nineties set, right? Like that stuff doesn't always survive the, uh, the move to modern screens. That's that's impressive.

Brent: Yup. Yup. So. Jeff. Did you have anything else about this episode? Because I like the Dzhokhar stuff was awesome. And, uh, let me, let me ask you this. When Dzhokhar first saw that video and he's like, someone's coming for you and you're going to live in fear until it happens and then you're going to die. Was there a part of you that were like, yeah, nobody's actually coming after him.

This is just to completely psych him

Jeff: A hundred percent. In fact, again, like the second time a value in the second one. When to Pari is like, has him been the pain givers and stuff? He's like, all right, here are my instructions. I got to make you live in fear for a long time. Then I got to make you suffer for a long time. Then I got to kill you at the appointed hour.

And so like just masterful in the whole piece of like, just drop the thing that the first time around, and I'm like, nobody's coming, it's going to be a ha ha ha. But it's going to be a, you know, you're an idiot because you were afraid sort of a piece, but it did. It caused that paranoia for him and got to Pari other than not being able to kill him.

It's incredible assassin. Like you did a great job following instructions. Great job. Following instructions.

Brent: I'd tell him to talk came in and totally like, I mean, she got everything over on him and I'm just going to say one more time. I really liked Natasha. I really hope she sticks

Jeff: I like her in Jakarta together. Like she's great on her own, but like when they're going down the corridor and they're like, ha, we got that. I'm just like, oh man, I want, I want these to all the time. This

Brent: That's, that's a much better relationship than Dzhokhar and the one who got blown out of her in her luck that we didn't see AKA recasted, um, because the character, like the character didn't work,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: they, they brought her in to be a conflict source with Dzhokhar and it was the wrong move. Now they have Natasha and who's going to be like a, like an equal level assistant, which is different than what we see with Londo and other things.

Jeff: Yeah. Of your

Brent: Veer who, by the way, veer is in the opening credits. So he's a guy like, he's not just a, like a secondhand guy, like he's a cast member

Jeff: I feel like that was like the biggest thing this episode did was now everyone in the opening credits has been on, this has been on screen.

Brent: Right. And I really hope to talk to you comes into the opening credits. Cause I

Jeff: She's there.

Brent: but oh, is she? Oh

Jeff: bet. And she's been in them for a while.

Brent: Did they like go retro that or

Jeff: I don't know, but like for the last couple Len years been in them, Natasha has been in a veer, has been in it for a while.

Brent: All right. Who's linear. I saw that one who

Jeff: the lens to lens

Brent: that's the lens guy. Okay. I think I saw that on the last episode. I'm like, who's this guy I don't, I don't recognize that name. And I did it today as well. Um, so Natasha is in there. That's good because she needs to stay like, like, and that's what I mean, comparing it to Londo and like veers in the idiot

Jeff: yeah. He's a joke.

Brent: exactly.

And that's not going to be the case here within toss. So I'm super excited to see how this one.

Jeff: Well, I had a couple thoughts on this one first. I did not want to like Katherine Sinclair. I wanted to hate everything about that, but they actually have some chemistry, like it kind of worked for me. Um, and I think the fact that it was spaced out enough through the episode that it wasn't just in your face, um, kinda made it work, but here's the two big things I got actually three that I got that were big first.

I feel like I'm starting to get the Centauri a little more with their religious piece that they had in there. It was like, um, that the hedonistic Roman bathhouses, right. Just wine and, and just food and stuff, women and just whatever, like they are. And they are the, the Roman empire just past its peak where they're still living that high lifestyle, but they've got, they don't have the stuff to back it up anymore.

But what I found most interesting in them is that they're dominant religious celebration that they chose to share with everybody is focused on the complete annihilation in genocide of the zone. So they were fighting design and at the end of each year, they'd count how many Centauri had survived. And I think it's Garibaldi asks, well, how many Zhan survived?

He says, no, Not a single one.

And so their core religious celebration is about wiping out another species. And so I think between this, when Dzhokhar talks about wiping out the Centauri and turning their bones into flutes for young NARKN, it's just hitting me. How offhandedly Babylon five tosses, like complete genocide and species site out, like, yep.

We're just going to completely annihilate a species. And it's just, okay. That's the thing. The flip side to that though, is the men Bari religious ceremony? Um, I feel like, like what I envisioned was the writers' room and they went in that day and someone wrote on the board, they said, men Bari, overly reverent ceremony.

And then like the fire alarm went off or something and they couldn't go back into that room until the day they had to print the scripts and they're like, oh yes, we'll just do this. I guess it meant nothing. Like, I don't even know what you're saying and you're eating some red thing I loved, uh, was a Garibaldi.

I think he's just like, Yeah,

I'm not eating this. Like I'm not even going to do it. It's like good for You

Brent: You know, here's the thing about that particular ceremony, Sinclair, wasn't the only one to eat the fruit. Pretty sure Dzhokhar did. Pretty sure Londo did pretty sure whatever,

Jeff: Yeah. Alondo aided before she even said that either. He's like Oh, cool. I've got,

Brent: and so did veer, right? He's like, yeah, go ahead and see.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: You know, and like I get, they said later that it had to do with how long you looked at somebody or whatever, but I'm kind of like, dude, who she actually get married to, like everybody ate, like, you know, is that what you do?

You sit around and everybody eats and then somebody just locks eyes with you. And now you're married. Like, you know, uh, I need more, I, I I'm, I'm not saying I am, I'm saying I could be interested more in the history of this Centauri thing. Like, I, I need a little bit more than just an exposition drop on what this looks like.

Cause that's an interesting take that you have on that whole scene that I didn't see into it. But now that you pointed out that way, I'm like, okay, I'm with you on that. Like that's kind of neat, uh, and a neat way of looking at it to compare it to the Romans. Um,

Jeff: and just the pageantry and the colors and this the, I couldn't think of another word, but just The hedonism.

Brent: you, you put the, the idea of the bath houses and stuff in there.

Like, you know, everybody's sitting at the table and it does, it definitely has that vibe.

Jeff: Loud drunk, you know? And just the whole, Yeah. just,

Brent: Hey, by the way, that's the party I want to

Jeff: Yeah, Right. Can I go to them in Bari one or the S Centauri, please. Thank you.

Brent: I'll go to the Sentara. Thank you. I'm not, like I said, I'm not even that big of a drinker, but it just looks

Jeff: looks like a lot more fun.

Brent: They might sing a shanty while we're in there.

Jeff: or two or three pass out while they're doing it

Brent: That's what we need. Jeff. I need a Satori Shanti, a bar song. That's what we

Jeff: Don't link it. If there's one out there, don't not as, let us let us find

Brent: let us

Jeff: Oh, if there is one though, I'm totally going to be like Brad, it's the Shanti. It happened. I'll be all over the Twitters. It happened. Did you think it was weird? So last episode, right? We heard about all these hate crimes and the gangs and all the anti alien sentiments on earth that were happening.

Did you find it weird that early. Called for a celebration of all the aliens religions, just like one episode after. I don't know. It just, it just didn't feel right to me. And so I guess what I'm wondering is that they were very specific that it. was earth central, that called for this just the, I don't know. I, don't know what the relationship of the earth government.

Brent: I don't find that different because the sentiments and stuff that grow on earth, um, are not necessarily government sentiments, sentiments of people. Now, there could be people that are in the government organizations that share those sentiments, but as far as the organization, as a whole making a move to call for something like this, I mean, I don't know, our government certainly does stuff that is tone deaf

Jeff: yeah. Every, every, every now and

Brent: And. Yeah, and this certainly could just be another example of something that is tone deaf or somebody who's actually in the government. Who's trying to do the right thing and trying to eliminate, uh, racism and all these things that are cropping up and their way of doing that is by doing the celebration.

Although I find it weird that say, yeah, you guys do that celebration way out there.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: it back on earth to

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: you know,

Jeff: And if they are like, what current world state would tell us is that that's just begging for conflict, right? Hey, there's already all these hate gang things going on now let's purposely bring together people to celebrate their religions. That, yeah. And so maybe it's just that maybe this is that thing of like, earth paints, you know,

one reality Babylon five is the last best hope for peace.

And so maybe earth central is like, Hey, things aren't great here. So let's try and make things at least look great up there.

Brent: Hey, you guys try it out there first. If you don't blow each other

Jeff: Yeah. Dan, maybe we'll do a

Brent: it a little closer home. Yeah.

Jeff: That's what I've got on this one. Not a lot of other thoughts on it. I mean, oh, there's a couple, a couple, right. And we're going to, we're going to launch into those.

Brent: yeah. Yeah. So Jeff, speaking of that, then those couple, we have reached that part of the show where it's time to boil it all down and see if the show has any of that star Trek quality to it. Does it have any deep moral messages or as a holding up a mirror to society, or is it giving us hope that things are going to be better in the future?

We're going to be more unified and not as divided. And we're going to do that by grading the show with zero to five deltas. So Jeff, I'm going to toss it to you. First is this episode of Babylon five star Trek or not. And should we have watched it sooner?

Jeff: So I'm going to start with the other piece first. Should I have watched it sooner? So the episode starts and is focused on . It's going to be good. Like, so, I mean, it's, it's going to be watchable. I loved every part of Dzhokhar's thing. Even when Garibaldi like pulled out the underwear and he's like, dude, hot pink. That was good. I, got to know what they were playing it for.

Brent: you know what my thought was when he pulled that out was like, Garibaldi is obviously pulling this out, trying to imply something. And I'm like, dude, how long have those been there? Those could have been there for a long time. And your car is like, yeah, I don't remember where those are from.

Jeff: He pulls them out and Like, they're just standing straight on their own. It's just, but I think it starts out.

Brent: something smelled in here.

Jeff: it starts out pretty good Right, in that. And then it just, it just plods and it goes so slowly. I don't think I ever I've watched this one twice. I don't want to watch it again. Um, there's parts of it.

Parts of it. I would watch I'd love. I'd watch that fight scene with Natasha and stuff. I'd watch that 20 more times. That was great episode as a whole. No, I don't think so. To take this and look at it compared to star Trek. One of the foundations of star Trek when it started was that humanity, whatever. I mean, w we had earth had moved quote, unquote, past the need for religion on there.

And that, despite the fact that religion plays a role in every series, of star Trek from here to forever, um,

Brent: the

Jeff: it's exactly like it's there. I mean, Kurt. Presides over a patently Christian wedding ceremony in there. So it's like, okay. Yeah, we're past it, but we still, we still totally do it here. And Babylon five, we're doing like the opposite.

We're embracing the diversity of religion. And that final scene was Sinclair where he lined up, you know, I mean, just an L I loved how they did the scene. It was just this endless line of people representing faiths, as you know, diverse, froze, uh, an atheist, a Roman Catholic Oglala Sioux, you know, and I loved how, I mean, they, they, they did use the word Eskimo to PR to describe a person who, which we don't use anymore.

We're smarter now than we were in the mid nineties, but I love that they wrapped in indigenous faiths into the whole thing. But just to show in that line, the way it went on forever and ever that Earth's dominant religion is all of these religions. And I feel like that almost makes it anti star Trek in, in what it is.

That said deep space, nine really felt like anti star Trek and how it focused on religion. And it challenged a lot of Roddenberry's things. And in the end, I think it actually more firmly affirmed a lot of Roddenberry's vision by challenging it. So zero to five deltas is tough because I have to decide if I'm optimistic about where Babylon five is going to go with this or not to decide if this is a star Trek episode or not.

And I want to be optimistic, but I'm also a pragmatist. And so I'm going to give this one to two deltas at a five with the hope that this takes us to a place that embrace embraces religion, the way. deep space nine ultimately did in there. That, Yeah.

we're, we're not religious fanatics anymore, but we still see value in, in faith.

Overall. How about you

Brent: I want to

Jeff: thoughts on mine? Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Well, I want to bounce off of what you're saying as I'm watching into mind, as you're talking about that final scene, that final shot really of the episode. And what I loved about that is, and I'm, I think I missed it until the very end, but the rest of the celebrations that were happening had the caveat, had the little asterisks next to them of the major religion of European.

Right. And when it came time for earth, we lined all of these people up. Now, if you share, if you simply talk about quantity on earth, the, the, I think the three major religions are some form of Christianity, Hinduism, and Muslim. I think it's those three. Those are the top three. And the like, once you get to like number four, when you're just talking about sheer number of participants adherence, the drop-off is drastic.

Right. And I think the other three are fairly, even I could be wrong. I haven't looked at data lately, but it, regardless when he, he made a statement when he lined up all those people, because there was so-and-so of the SU, he said, I think he said the Sioux

Jeff: Yeah. It was the Oglala Sioux Sufi. So a specific faith within the SU yeah.

Brent: Yes that right there. And then, you know, you mentioned, uh, the, the Eskimo piece when I'm glad you brought up, uh, what you did about that. Um, and then honestly there was, they talked about the, the, was it the shin towel and like they, they gave Shinto, thank you. Um, they gave like all of these people equal standing without regard for the number of adherence to their thing to say on earth, there is no major religion.

Like, no matter how small you are, how big you are, you are of equal standing and you are of equal value. And I, I love that. And honestly, regardless if that has to do with faith or race or religion or anything else, that is one of the most star Trek messages I could ever have. And it happened within. 23 seconds of screen time.

And it's the most star Trek thing about this whole episode. So for that, I'm going to give this a half of a

Jeff: wow.

Brent: it's, it's not that star Trek of an episode, but I will, I will give this a caveat. Not every star Trek episode is a star Trek episode

Jeff: That's a great point.

Brent: You know, and, and I don't want people to, I don't bring that up.

Like, oh, no one, every star Trek episode talked about, you know, the utopia or the hope for the future or whatever. I'm a well-aware of that. I've seen them all 47 times. I say at the beginning of every single show of my other podcast. Um, but as far as is this a star Trek episode? Uh, I don't think it is not very much, you know, it's this episode had some fun elements was mostly boring for me anyway.

Um, I certainly see where there is. Places where they're trying to move the story forward. It was just so like pulling teeth, getting there, you know what I mean? So should we have watched this one sooner? No, no. What I want to watch it again. No, uh, um, yeah, I'm happy with my one viewing

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: and I'm glad to, I'm glad to know that, but I'm glad to have him to talk on, on board, um, linear, whatever.

We'll, we'll see about him, Catherine. I need more, you know, I, I could get down with this relationship. I really could. I just need more and see where they're going to go with it. Uh, I'm intrigued by what she's going to do and where she's going to go. But yeah, I give it a half a Delta and not, I don't really want to see it again.

I don't really care if I would've seen it before now.

Jeff: Oh, we did it. We got through parliament, a dreams switched to your earlier point. No parliament, No.

dreams. And the whole thing next week, next week, we're going to be watching mind wars for the next time. Now we've never seen these. We're not watching ahead. We're not looking at pictures. We're not leading any spoilers.

So we like to play this little game where we guess what's going to be on the episode and I'll tell you what I think we've not come close even one time. So far on this one. So, Brent, uh, what do you think is going to happen in mind? Wars?

Brent: Jeff next week could be my final episode on this podcast, because if mind wars is not about Sycor and is not about the telepaths I'm out, I'm done with this show. It's got, that's what it's gotta be. It's gotta be about the, about the telepaths and the, the, the Sycor thing, I think specifically Sycor, but it's gotta be about the

Jeff: Yeah, I couldn't, I could not possibly agree more. I don't know if I'm out. I don't know if I'm that far. Like, I feel like I'm in this for the long haul, but yeah. I mean, we haven't seen Talia in like, I don't know, 13 episodes so far she'd made it whatever. And we have, I think we've had two mentions of Cycore and everything and all we'd had as questions based on that.

So answer some of our questions. Give us some new ones, maybe, right? Yeah,

Yeah. I'm a hundred percent on board. Why some mind wars, one of two things it's either going to be Cycore and the telepaths or something so unrelated to this that there's no possible way I could have ever guessed it without having to watch the series before.

Brent: which would be like the last bunch of episodes that we have seen. Um, yeah. It's got it. It's just, oh, like I'm like, I'm begging, please, please let this one be about Sycor and because that's, that's the thread that I'm still the most interested in out of all of them. Like I re remember, go back to that first episode, midnight on the firing line where it's like, that whole thing is nasty.

And I want to dive into

Jeff: Yeah. Ivanova and Talia doing their thing. Like Aw. yeah, More of that.

Brent: yeah,

Jeff: going to find out right here next week. Thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe where ever you're listening to us and on wherever you're listening to us, give us that star, give us the thumbs up, give us a rating.

And whether you're listening to us on apple podcasts or not totally fine use whatever podcast or you want, but truck by apple, right? Just go there real quick rating review, type it up on there. Give us that peace bread. You've said it so well, it's so important for those reviews. It's not that it's going to help us in the algorithm.

It's not some magic thing. Tell them about social proof, Brent, and how desperately we need your social proof.

Brent: Yeah, you, you guys know this, you go to Amazon and you're looking up a thing. And the first thing you look at when you're trying to go, okay, I'm looking for a new toaster and there's 53 toasters on the screen. Which 1:00 AM I going to get? You look at the reviews. You look to see what the stars are, and then you go to the one that has four and a half stars or five stars, and you fill it up and you go, okay, let's see what some people.

And you look at it and you just, you make your decision on which toaster to buy really based off of that. Don't you. That's what I do. And that's the way people do with podcasts. They're scrolling through, they see something on there. If it's got a lot of a ratings, if it's got a lot of reviews, they go, okay, this must be a good one.

They S they will look at a couple of reviews, maybe more, and then they subscribe. And that's how you help grow the show and grow the community. And you know, who knows? You might write a review, Jeff might read it. And somebody might email in talking to you, which is kinda neat. I've seen that happen before in the podcast world, too.

So that social proofing, you guys go out there and do that for us, helps out, uh, just a ton because it lets the world know that you like our show.

Jeff: At a hundred percent, you leave us a review on apple podcasts. You're going to get some love on our Twitter, on our Twitter. It's at Babylon first automatically sends out a little tweet saying that you left the review and puts it there for everybody to see

Brent: Does it

Jeff: does. That's. I said that.

that's a cool apple.

Doesn't do. That's a cool thing. I set up on our web, but I've learned, and I'm learning this like web thing a

Brent: at ya. Getting all Webby, Webby fired over

Jeff: out world. Well, listen, next week right here, Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast and mind wars. So thank you for joining us on this. Our last best hope for peace live long and prosper. I got it out. I did it.