Points of Departure | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm Jeff Akin. brent and i used to be star trek podcasters but then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed now we're watching this incredible series for the second time paying attention to everything that we missed the first time around you know what i was thinking earlier today jeff what's that i was going back through our i was re-listening to our first episode the first time we went through this episode yeah and i was just thinking of like how different we are now yeah we're so like just as individual people not just with all the life events and everything that have happened but like being on this side of babel on five like like babel on five has had an impact in life and when i go back and i listen to the noobs you know there's there's things i want to say to them i can say it the rubes i wouldn't even give us enough credit as new okay spoiler alert so we actually had a little bit of a conversation about whether or not at this point in our first watch We were now veteran Babylon five podcasters, the gall of hubris, the sheer hubris that we had to be able to say that because no, I was even sitting there going, shut up, boys. No, not yet. No.

[1:58] Now i can say that with full confidence right look at us on the show we have been through it we're there no like this will be a thing we can now put on our resume for the rest of time and we made it through but now we're doing this really super cool second watch um but you know what we're doing during the second watch jeff what are we doing we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series we're asking what's this episode trying to tell us is it giving us hope that things can be better in the future is it holding up a mirror to society You're telling us how we can be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, uh, for all of you folks out there listening, uh, this episode is going to be full of spoilers. As I said, Jeff and I have already been through this series once. And that means that from this point forward, we could talk about anything from any point from any episode, anywhere in the entire franchise, canonical or non-canonical source or extra source. It's all fair game for us to talk about. So if you have not watched Babylon five yet, stop this video, go back and join us for our first watch. It's in the feed. You guys can do that there and catch up with us and come hang out with us now on the second watch. Trust us. It's much better if you do it that way. This is your last warning.

[3:10] Brent, we're kicking off season two today, watching points of departure. We watched this a little while ago for the first time and, uh, had our responses and reactions to it. Do you remember what you thought of it when we watched points of departure for the first time? Not much. Yeah. I really, here's what I know about points of departure. We get the Sheridan switch over. Right. And I think what I really just remember is, is this episode was kind of, it was the one where we just had to reset because of the new character.

[3:47] Like you couldn't just keep going off of Chrysalis. Like, Oh, we've had a change. So we've got to make that change happen. And we got to take an episode and pause and do that. And that's, that's what I remember. That's my, like, as I, as I walk through and I think back, Oh, points to departure. Oh yeah. That's the Sheridan episode. And we just kind of had to pause. Right. I'm really looking forward to this time around. Because I want to see what else was actually going on in this episode. I want to add to my memory of what this episode really is. Because having just had the first watch, that's really all I remember about this episode.

[4:26] I kind of don't remember a lot either well i remember four things i remember sheridan right i mean how can you not i was like who's this guy i remember hey look at the lighting it's like they spent a little more money on the lighting i remember the trigati just because that's a fun word to say it's the uh the minbari ship i'm pretty sure and then i remember hey remember that cool like chrysalis thing and you know hole in sinclair's mind well let's just let lanier tell you everything that was going to happen in a two minute dump of just blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, really, really? So I remember being kind of lukewarm on this one and in a big way because of that info dump from Lanier. Interesting. You know, it's, it's interesting. I say what I say. It's interesting. You say what you say, because that's what our memory says, but I know what we actually said. You do. Because I went back and listened to our first response, as I've already mentioned so far. You want to hear some of the stuff that we said? Oh, man. I'm a little nervous, but yeah. Oh, I had fun with this one. I had fun. It's so weird. I have fun listening to us. We talk about it all the time. Okay.

[5:44] Jeff, I'm sorry. I meant to pull this as a clip, and I meant to pull two clips for this, and I didn't, but that's okay. You got me. You got me so good. Yeah. Now to all the folks out there, Jeff has been the editor of our audio podcast this entire time. He has, he has edited, I think just about every single episode. I don't think I've had to step in on any of them. So Jeff has been doing that. We he's in his recap. Do you remember what you did in your recap? No. Cause you had the recap for this episode. you're talking you're talking and you're oh shoot i've got to i've got to update the computer don't worry about it like you had this like side little thing and i was like jeff you forgot to put that out you got to forget didn't pull that out right i'm walking through home depot while i'm listening to this and i'm like oh no jeff and then you do something else and something blips and you're like ah shoot i really should have installed these updates and you and you go through some stuff and then you're like kind of like the way that babylon 5 got all of its updates it would have been good if they'd done that the first time around i was like oh he's doing a bit he's doing a bit this was like the time we started doing bits in our recaps like yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because i don't we.

[7:02] Try to get a little more a little more loose with them a little more funny with them um but you totally got me i was i like from uh from the creator side of it like you didn't edit this out what are you doing um you loved the production changes in this episode yeah the more lights and the graphics all of those kind of uh all of those kind of updates but you're right overall you didn't like this episode very much okay yeah you you just didn't uh i on the other hand loved this episode oh wow i don't remember loving this episode but i said it i really really liked this episode i feel like this is brent after every single uh season intro this is the best season premiere so far season to season i think you said it every time i remember season five was my favorite by the time it was all said and done yeah uh-huh and season one was the worst so and you're right it might have they might have gotten progressively better for me um Um, but I did, I, I really, I said, what I liked about this episode was, is that it gave us everything that we needed from season one that we didn't actually get in season one.

[8:17] We got all of those things and it, it kind of finally starts to feel like they're going somewhere, which knowing what we know now about the structure of how JMS did this, this is the time that stuff starts really starting to go places. Yep. You know? So it's kind of the point. Um, yeah.

[8:36] You had some big theories about Sinclair on this one. Okay. This was the episode. Well, you said this because we were debating whether or not Michael O'Hare was actually gone from the show because we didn't know. We knew that there was the issues and stuff, but we didn't know because he was not killed. Right. The character was not killed off. He was just shunted over. And I was like, maybe Sheridan's here. Maybe sheridan has been a part of the plan the entire time and jeff i'm so glad that in our last episode we went through the original plan because now we can compare it we go no sheridan wasn't a part of the plan at least not in this capacity at this early he wasn't in the treatment that we wrote no that we we went through so no sheridan wasn't a part of the plan um michael and we now know michael o'hare actually was gone from the show he came back for like two episodes right three i think technically but um but you had a theory about him that he would be the new kai win.

[9:40] Okay do you remember this i don't remember this at all you said he said you said it'd be the and i'm quoting you now okay this would be the person who isn't on the dvd cover but we're excited every time they show up and i went who's excited when kai win shows up what are you talking about she's great i mean she's horrible but she's cartagia great and then you said this you said it's because sinclair is the key political and religious figure that shows up from time to time to move the story along. Okay.

[10:26] The key political and religious figure that shows up two more times. A couple times. And moves the story along. Holy schmark, Jeff. If we look at the arc from last week, I described his kid. Uh-huh. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I also described his kid, but it's something completely different. But that's okay. You also very much appreciated the military realism in this episode. That's right, because in the battle, when they're repeating the commands back to each other. Yeah, I remember that. Does it get a crown? They want to know, Sarah wants to know over in the chat, if you're getting a crown for that. No. No. No. That's pretty, it's too general. Like, it's pretty dead on, and it's too general. I was going to say, yeah, there was no specificity. No, you get your crown for one you have coming up here in just a few moments. Oh. Oh, yeah.

[11:21] Now, I also said this, Jeff. This is the episode where I reveled, reveled because in season one, I had a little prediction about Sinclair myself. I said, Sinclair is part Mimbari. Yep. And in this episode, we get this big info dump from here where that's what he said. He's like, Sinclair is, he's got a Mimbari soul. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you turned around and took that and amped it up to 11 in this episode, Jeff. And it's where jeff says sinclair is valen wow okay that you got your literal crown dude i can imagine putting ourselves in the listener's space like how many jaws hit the floor in that moment i as a person who went through this with you about hit the roof of my car when you said that.

[12:19] I was like, what? What? They got that here? I don't want anybody to get hurt. That's what I'm saying. But how great would it be if somebody got into a collision? Because they're like, what happened? Well, this just total rube guessed that Sinclair was Valen.

[12:34] Now, here's the thing. Again, going back to the original plan that we had last night or that we went through on last week's episode. I don't know at what point jms retooled babylon squared and made babylon four instead of go to the future turn around and said no actually it's going to go to the past instead of the future and we're going to turn sinclair into valen but i get the feeling he hadn't had that thought yet okay so when you called that out right now before he does that maybe he had the thought i don't know but regardless it's still like super early in the process he planted all i mean the seed this is the thing the genius of his writing is there's so many seeds planted that if he doesn't go harvest them you don't even notice some of them some of them are very obvious that he doesn't harvest but they just naturally flow and let it ebb and change like we said last week it lives and it breathes it does it absolutely does and we when it does most of the time at least in this world we get a much stronger story for it exactly much stronger story for it uh fabio over here says that he loki thought you'd skipped around and checked wiki or something oh he was calling shenanigans on you pal i don't even know i assumed there was a wiki but i hadn't looked at any of that stuff at this point um.

[13:54] Hey, you remember last week when we said in the original arc that the leader of the Minbari Warrior cast commits suicide and left a rogue group that was responsible for the Sinclair thing in the gathering? And then we asked if that's what was supposed to have happened with the Shy Elite. Because remember, the Shy Elite was dead. And, like, did he commit suicide? Is that how he died? Well, we actually get a direct answer to that question in this episode. In this episode. I didn't know. I didn't know that when I asked that question last week.

[14:20] And in this episode, I'm just going to let it play out. But we are once again going to see a very big part of the original concept come into play and maybe even get to track the change of how JMS is making those changes as he's, you know, retooling the show a little bit. You and I were both big fans of Sheridan from the word go. We loved him straight out the gate. And I'm like, I'm so excited for this because, like, listen, all love and respect to Michael O'Hare. And you're you and are you and you and mine my you yours and my there it is yours and my respect for him and love for him i would say skyrocketed in this watch yes agree you know so no shade to him whatsoever but daddy's home dude bruce box lightener oozes charisma dude he's so good looking to look at the man back there like he's just like oh my god you're right he does He can be boyishly handsome, ruggedly handsome, whatever you need. He's all of it. And we know he's going to age. I mean, because you think about season five, you know, Bruce Boxleitner, who's president Sarah Dan and all that sort of stuff. It's my God. He looks so good. He's the, he's the goat tea.

[15:32] Wow. Wow. We both loved how Sinclair was written off the show. And you had mentioned how it's actually the pattern that we had seen with Dr. Kyle and Lita. And what we now know is a trap door it was actually built into the show but you and i were just both like man it's so cool i was writing these people off and we're like yeah because he did it on purpose you big idiots we've been trying to tell you that um you and i both guffawed a lot over the vibe shower that all the plebs on the station have to take okay because the command staff gets real water everybody else just has to take a vibe shower and we're kind of like oh that might actually be the way to go right i'm down for some vibe there you go um we both figured that dylan was turning into a human but you specifically called it as a hybrid okay which i thought was neat um and we both said that uh linear seems a lot more mature in this one we noted that like the growth of his character the last thing i'll say here jeff is it was a really really good thing that it was my turn to listen to the episode and not yours yeah because i made a major major stargate reference that is a massive spoiler.

[16:51] That if you were to hear it right now you would know exactly what and who i was talking about yeah not go listen okay because you're not there yet oh okay oh you're not there yet that's awkward and here's the thing we're not even keeping track we're not even keeping so much spoilers away from you for stargate like that's a whole different animal right this is one i've been keeping okay this is a secret of the show i've just been letting develop for you so yeah but But that wasn't my only Stargate reference.

[17:22] No, no, no, no, no. I said the Agamemnon reminded me a lot of the X-303. Ah, which we just saw. Which you now know what that is. Yeah, very cool. You're right. I think we talked about that in the episode too, kind of a similar build. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's what you and I said, Jeff, about this episode. But I'm really curious. I know you did some research on this and found out what JMS was saying about this episode. What did he have to say? Anything good? I just have to say, it's incredible to me that J. Michael Straczynski continues to exist online because it had to be so exhausting. I feel like he answered the same three or four questions 800,000 times. No, Ivanova is not going to be the commander because she was just the first officer. That's not how it works. She doesn't know Ivanova. It's not normal for the first officer to be. Ivanova is the first. That's her job is this over and over again. No, Sheridan is not a war criminal. It was done in a, in a military. No, that's not against the rules of this. It's over and over so many things, but I'll tell you, there's a lot on this one.

[18:29] And so I'll kind of run through. He says, I like this a lot because it describes our show. He says, I don't think it's the position of this show to state whether or not a belief system is true, but rather to explore the actions of those who think it's true. Not to resolve arguments, but to start arguments.

[18:54] Mission accomplished. Uh-huh. Okay. Oh, this one, he answered quite a bit also. But Sheridan did not tell President Clark about the Minbari soul situation. Clark already knew. Sheridan's line is, I spoke with the president. He's the only other person who knows why the Minbari surrendered. Also in the first issue of the comic, this prior knowledge on Clark's part is clear as well. To my delight, he says, yes, we brightened things up a notch. But only a notch because we discovered that a lot of the good work being done on the sets and costumes wasn't being seen because they were too dark ah they stargated it basically yeah yeah why have lights so we went up about one f-stop but at the same time began using more shadows textures and colors so the show has a more realistic and denser look to it.

[19:53] This one I'm interested in because of my recollection of the next episode, but he says, if you think points of departure was a wham, then I can't wait to see your reaction to revelations. I don't remember being much of a wham, but. No, I remember not having that big of a. See, that's where I think, you know what I think is happening with some of this, Jeff? You know how you and i often talk about especially through the first the first watch there's the the group thing people people are seeing like sheridan and delin right now through the eyes of season five sheridan is a lynn not in the through the eyes of we just got out of season one.

[20:39] You know uh and and we we just we can't do that jms is already watching them and knows all these pieces because he's already looking at it through the future lens and nobody else is so he literally went first and does what so listen for all you folks out there who are doing that which jeff and i are joining you now jms went first yeah he is the first one good company he is he's laurian he is the first one uh sheridan is a descendant of general philip john sheridan you familiar with general john sheridan um i know john jacob jingelheimer schmidt but his name was my name too was it yeah and every time i go out people always shout john jacob jingelheimer schmidt, yeah there we go we're dads uh he was a real world um civil war yeah civil war okay he was a general in the union army and everything worked out really well and shared in being a descendant of his and Bruce box Lightner, huge civil war buff. So the Lincoln stuff that we get through here was really, really natural. Yeah.

[21:53] Uh, it says the battle, I like, oh gosh, this is really great, especially because of, uh, last week's episode. He says the battle of the line and the hole in Sinclair's mind was always intended as the entry point, the trigger to the story. It's like Frodo being given the ring and Lord of the Rings. The story isn't about that, but that's how we get into the story.

[22:19] Okay. Robert Foxworth, he plays general Hague. Yep. He's somebody that they spoke to in case bruce wasn't available or didn't uh didn't fit for the role or whatever he was a second choice for uh for sheridan okay i thought was interesting they liked him a lot and then they kept him as general haig he you know what he would have been a completely different deal he doesn't have that youthful vigor no that um that that bruce box lightener brings although i i like him as an actor like but he's good in the roles that he gets he's he's a you know he is a general not a yeah yeah yeah that's a that's a great he's a general not a captain he's an admiral or a badmoral not you know a good moral not many of those i like this i appreciate as well there's a lot of things he said that i really resonate with uh we had originally intended to resolve the missing 24 hours and the battle of the line by episode four in the second season. But we just had to move it up three episodes to the first episode because new players are coming onto the field in the form of, he says, the shadow men and other forces. And now we have to begin turning our attention to new mysteries.

[23:34] I thought it was interesting. He called them shadow men. Like he's still, still looking for that name for them. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't quite have it yet. Just a few more. And I like this a lot. Actually, God, there's a lot of these I just really like and appreciate. He says, all the characters are unique. There seems to be this boneheaded notion that I frequently run into. Well, Ivanova's just Takashima renamed. Or Sheridan's story is just the same as Sinclair's. Same guy, just renamed. They're not and never have been. The story of one does not devolve automatically into the other. If you make a change, it's because you have something better in mind. Oh.

[24:18] Yeah. Hey, here's my original plan. I'm going to make some changes because why? It got better. It got better. It got better. And then one for my music buffs out there. Regarding the theme music, to me, this one is neither worse nor better than the first. They're different and meant to convey different moods and themes. Each year it'll change. This year was heavy on strings and brass I like this a lot This shows the planning Even went into the theme He says next year It'll be heavy on percussion Dun, dun, dun Dun, dun, dun Yeah, I like that he even had already had those conversations about the theme for it. Yeah. Every detail he had planned out.

[25:03] That's what I got looking back at Lurker's Guide and other sources of information out there. So much stuff, dude. I know. Well, it makes sense between our review of it, his review of talking through everything. This is a big change in pivot point for Babylon 5. Sure. Sure. I like I like where he talks about, you know, you're you're not just replacing somebody and then moving on with the character in the same story.

[25:28] Although we did see many elements of Sinclair's original story still make their way over to Sheridan.

[25:35] Yep. You know, everything from literally the exact description of him getting kicked out of the little thing in the turbo lift and the reveal of Kosh and his relationship with the Lynn. Although that felt a lot more organic than what we said happened in the original art organic and respectful and consensual things like yeah yeah yeah unforced yeah yeah not not pre-planned by the uh by the what you call it see here's my thing okay let's talk about just a lynn for a second i was thinking about this last night after we got done my impression of what's going on with the lynn is she goes into the chrysalis not to emerge as a female able to mate with a human and have a baby she goes into the chrysalis because that's the prophecy and in doing so she becomes the person who can help bridge the two people and and like she thinks like that's her like she's she's the the uh the anti-valent in that like sinclair came over to the minbari now she's going over to the human and and it's bringing balance to the to the whole thing like it was it was all with delin and when she did that she winds up meeting sheridan and falling for sheridan and then they wind up having a child not i'm coming over here to either kill you or.

[27:00] Take your seed like right but you know i think that's a good thing to point out because i have thought a number of times that the chrysalis scene of delan actually was pointless like it did nothing but what it did was in war without end when sinclair just walks out of the ship in the in the past as veil and you're like oh i know exactly what happened so it's like okay it had a whole different bent in his original plan but for this it was basically we can just show you this thing instead of having to do a big build up and explain it because we already did the build up and explanation.

[27:37] We've been building this one up for a while. Brent, what do you say we watch the episode? Let's go watch this episode. If you're joining us for the first time or the thousandth time, let me tell you how this works. Break it down a little bit. Brent and I have not watched this episode since the first time we watched it. Have you watched this since the first time? I have not. Same. Watched it a couple times the first time around. Haven't watched it since. So we're going to watch it in real time right here with you. We're going to bring it up. We're going to watch the episode. We're going to talk about it. We're going to react. We're going to pause. We're going to say, oh my gosh, what's this thing? And have all the conversations. That's going to get kind of chopped up and stuff so that we can put it onto YouTube and honor the copyrights that are important and should be honored. So they'll be out there for you to watch on YouTube. The full version with our entire conversation and our pauses and our boop, boop, boop, boops and everything is posted up on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's with the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on the podcasting apps out there, you're going to hear that reaction and then stick around because we're going to have the conversation on the other side, just like our YouTube folks get. That way you guys can join in the fun as well. And we'll talk about all the messages we uncover and all that sorts of stuff. So, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's watch it. Get into season two. Accessing file.

[29:05] Music.

[29:18] Third shift we'll swing back this way in a month make sure everything's okay those hijackers so much as blink in your direction yell we'll be here roger it just feels so roger roger feels so comfortable hearing his voice it's just like again no shade to michael harris and claire but it's like oh now we're watching babylon 5. Initiate jump into hyperspace jump point i there it is jump point i They're already doing it. Dude, these graphics look so good. It's remarkable.

[29:47] This still holds up right now. Earth Dome on Gold Channel 1. Such a remarkable step up. General Haig, Joint Chiefs of Staff. Thank you for clarifying how General Haig is. Yes, sir. I like when they do lines just for us. Steve. Like, he clearly knows who he would be. This is a surprise. What can I do for you? You know what's great, Jeff? I'm noticing. The last few days, I'm in Bari worship. And I only noticed this because I just edited that video for the thing. Mm-hmm. The uniform that General Haig here is wearing. Yeah. is the same dress uniform that sheridan wore after the earth civil war when he was doing his big speech like where he resigned from earth force and all that like right before they turned around and named him president of the international or the interstellar alliance that's a slick looking uniform man that's which i'm like wait that's i don't know what general haig's coming out of because that's either a dress uniform or that's the uniform of a general which sheridan was wearing Well, I think, and you know, this you've watched stargate, the uniform, the general's not that much different from the uniform of everybody else. They just have stars on it. That's fair. So this is the dress uniform. And I think why is he wearing a dress uniform to talk to a guy though? Well, look at him. He's in his office. It's probably a big official thing. That's the one thing that sci-fi wear your dress uniforms in the office. You don't, but sci-fi military tends to. Okay. Fair enough. I'll give you that as a convention, right? Yeah. I'll give you that as a convention.

[31:07] It is an easy way visually in television to say this is person is important but you think about like hammond and davis norman davis like same shirt just you know hammond's got his up on his shoulder and then davis has his sergeant badge on his on his arm we have reason to believe it may have hostile intent i love i don't understand the helmet with the war's been over for more than ten years why would the mambari government launch an attack they wouldn't now i want a new i now i want a new one oh yeah i love the sinclair aircraft thing but now i want that one i want to see it because that's similar to the the symbol for the navy seals they've got like a thing with a trident on it it i'm sure it's gonna hey if anybody out there has one or knows where i can get one hook a brother up because i will put that up on my wall because that's cool we have a renegade warship on our hands the trigotti the minbari government has dispatched a second cruiser in hopes of finding the trigotti before it does any damage maybe a while before that cruiser arrives When it does, I want you to make personal contact with it and coordinate the search. General, with all due respect, it's time I made personal contact with the M'Bari warship. I sent it straight to hell. Wow. Look at that.

[32:16] Straight to hell. You've beaten them once, and if necessary, you can do so again. What an opening line for him. Understood. I need you to do one other job, and this comes straight from... He's Newcomb Sheridan from Go. Status report. Lieutenant Commander Susan Ivanova recording. It is now eight days since the death of Earth Alliance President Luis Santiago. We both really liked this speech. First time around.

[32:40] And the whole place has gone straight to hell. Which is where he blew the last Minbari ship. Right? But it's great. It catches us up on everything. Your commanding officer, Commander Sinclair, will not be returning to Babylon 5. He's being reassigned permanently. The way he brought that up, your commanding officer, Commander Sinclair, is dead. Like, that was totally, the cadence was totally leading to that. The year the Great War came upon us all. You were really pissed. I was. That they said that. This is the story of the... They spoiled everything. And I'm like, I don't really know if that's a spoiler. That's what, we're giving you information, and now you need to look for how it is.

[33:20] I still feel like it's giving it away. To the Minbari homeworld. He'll be functioning as the first Earth ambassador, allowed permanent residence there. I've already briefed Captain Sheridan. Who? Captain Sheridan. John Sheridan? That's right. I believe you know it. Yes, sir. I served under him at the transfer point off Io. That was an LT. Fine officer, but. I'm sorry. I just noticed this. Sheridan was put in place by the president. Yes. Direct order of the president. The president is Clark. Uh-huh. Not Santiago. The president is Clark. Clark puts Sheridan in control of B5. Mm-hmm. Sheridan winds up rebelling and being the one who deposes clark that's huge at the very end right yeah and sheridan could have done that had he not been put in charge of b5 it's his fatal fatal flaw the misstep clark just sealed his fate all right do we know this guy is he great counsel so he's got to be right she's done it hasn't she it's probably rough n she's in there i think Rathen was all for it, Prophecy will attend to itself.

[34:25] Welcome aboard, sir. I'm authorized to surrender command of Babylon 5 to you at this time. She's so excited to do it, too.

[34:33] And Ambassador Delenn is in a cocoon. As in a moth or a butterfly. Yes, sir. About Yehi. About Yehi. So great. Interesting place you have here. And he's not even phased, but he's like, cool, man, whatever. Let's go. All right. Babylon 5 is divided into several different sections. You were excited about this, I remember. Yeah, because that was the thing we were talking about is by the end of the first season, we still had no clue about how Babylon 5 was laid out or what was going on with it. Here it is fully explained. I'll just grab a fast shower. We'll head up to command and control and I'll give them my good luck speech. Fast. That's the same speech I gave him when I took command on Io on the Agamemnon. It's sort of my tradition. Good luck charm. It's my thing. Always give it within 24 hours of taking on a new assignment. Which means he's totally not giving it within 24 hours. I just want to point out, you mentioned often how we watch this through the eyes of the end of the whole series. Yeah. We're looking at two Ranger Ones sitting here just having a conversation about taking care of the people on Babylon 5. Two Anlashocks.

[35:41] Anlashock Nas. Anlashock Nas. That's cool. We have supporters even among the council. They tell us that Sinclair is now on our world. He's an ambassador. So you say. But the Grey Council never tells anyone the whole truth, does it? It's almost like JMS is still sticking a little bit to the original script with Sinclair. You know, the original backstory. Like, those elements are still in play for Sinclair. Yeah.

[36:09] Like, maybe we could? Maybe? I don't know. I'm sorry to bother you, sir, but I've got security on the link. I'm sorry to bother you, sir, but I'm going to overact while I deliver these lines. He won't say what it's about, only that it involves the safety of the station.

[36:24] I feel like that's actually an ADR recording. They're like, we're just going to clean it. This does not fit. Plenty of time for speeches. Carry on. Babylon 5 Leadership Academy moment. Yeah. He doesn't know jack squat about those people or what they've done. Like he, it's been hours from the time he was told he's taking command to stepping in and taking command. He might've perused a couple of reports. That's not what's important. What's important is he went and met them. Uh huh. And tried to like have a bit of a connection, but the whole point was him saying, y'all are great. And I'm excited, not just to be here, but to be here with you doing that, you know, and then it sets stuff up for, if they do underperform, you can be like, I don't understand. You're so great. I know you're so great. What's going on. Come on, man. Get your head out of your. Excellent. Excellent moment from Sheridan there. Hey, hey, hold it right there. That section's off limits to everyone, but station personnel. He's about to get janked.

[37:24] Right i'm sorry i seem to be lost he's just doing that because he's minbari yeah hey wait a minute his name is.

[37:33] Kilay if you will arrange to have him apprehended i will have him picked up by others and conveyed to minbar you.

[37:38] Said he was second in command of a minbari cruiser which one i don't see what that has to do with this was it the drugatti what's the drugatti it's not something we like to talk about sit right back and i'll tell the tale tale of a rogue ship at the end of the war when our ships were ordered to surrender one of our war leaders cinnaval took his own life rather than obey and became a martyr to his own crew so this is part of the original plan uh-huh you and i thought that it might have been the shy elite that's what happened with the shy elite so it was this guy now i'm curious to know and i would ask jms this jms you're watching let us an email let us know because you have time to write people emails who ask you random questions totally um but a question i would have is when you wrote or when you had the the episode written where we met naroon and the shy elite i forget which episode that was was something else well it was uh uh legacies right with with naroon was it legacies with naroon yeah it's the one where we met naroon right yeah was it intended that the person who that that the shyly had committed suicide but.

[38:41] Now that got shifted over to this person i think so or was this the person who'd always committed suicide in your original plan just curious right see now i'm tracking all the changes uh-huh it's fun the president feels the mimbari had too much influence over an earth outpost times change and the day that a man such as yourself is given a position of this importance is a dark day indeed music's working hard this is many of our best warriors because of you well he says it's not crusade soon forget.

[39:09] If there is a doom on this station, it is because you brought it here. In this moment right now, I, as a viewer, fully believe that all-out war can break out between Earth and Minbari right here, right now. And that's what Sheridan was put here to do. Oh, to break out the war? Make the war happen? Interesting. You know, I think in many ways we're still following that original blueprint right here. Leading to the Earth-Men-Bari war. Leading to the Earth-Men-Bari war, yeah. Yeah. Or this is how he's wrapping it up so he doesn't have to go to the house. He's in the moment. It was the only real victory we had in the whole damn war, and I am not about to apologize for it. He said Kaleem feels his world has betrayed him. If that's true, would your first target be the representative of that world?

[39:52] D'Lynn. Now, we see that mining happen in the beginning, and it happens a little bit differently than this. But the thing I don't remember, and I feel awful I don't remember it, But didn't Ivanova's brother die in that situation? Isn't this where he went or in what led to it? I'm looking over to our council chambers. Council chambers. Yeah, I'm waiting for them to. I don't, I would not have made that connection, but it's possible. Nia confirms and says, yes, you're right. It's interesting. They make a couple changes. I don't think it was between Jupiter and Mars in the film. And then that's where he went. I'm curious. I mean, because Sheridan wasn't in command, so he wouldn't necessarily know every pilot. You know that was there but just an interesting dynamic behind all of that she's in there isn't she no one near let's go freeze i love you put the gun down put the gun down we won't hurt you claims like this is exactly what i want you are going to kill me then do so then we're not getting anywhere i suggest we wrap it up for now and try again tomorrow we're not anywhere why don't you let me hit him see what happens right told that after the death of your commanding officer you took command of a mimbari war cruiser but if you're here where's your ship.

[41:13] Cut to the jump gate there is something we need to discuss especially in light of claim's presence specifically you're my woman the reason you were sent here the relocation of Commander Sinclair, and the reason we surrendered at the Battle of the Line. And right now, everybody's like doing happy dances. We're gonna find out! When our leader was killed by an Earth Explorer division, you surviving Earth ships that were ordered to defend your world at any cost were not an obstacle. We're not an obstacle. It's not a big deal. Oversee the final victory of our forces. They cannot harm those ships. I love that we get this scene here. They continue to try. If our next step is the final assault on their world, we must know their defenses. Do you? We're just cutting through them.

[42:06] Yeah this is great we don't see how they just randomly picked like well it was uh kosh gave her the this was the first time planted the seedner had to say this one direct contact with a human in this case sinclair he was tortured interrogated scanned during the course of the scan because they will hurt people who are not one of their own what was true it is our belief that every generation of Minbari is reborn in each following generation. Remove those souls and the whole suffers. We are diminished. Weaker. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been fewer Minbari born into each generation. And those who are born do not seem equal to those who came before. It is almost as if our greater souls have been disappearing. You know, in the original treatment, it says that each successive generation is weaker.

[43:00] Here he just says they're not as great as before. Yeah. That's a much different way to word that. It really is. To where it makes sense. Yeah. Like we talked about weakness has a connotation to it. Yeah. He's saying we're still great. At the battle of the line, we discovered where our souls were going. They were going to you. To you. Minbari souls are being reborn in part or in full in human bodies. So you stopped the war? now what do we know now let's look at this through the lens of the future jeff and brent right minbari souls are not being reborn in humans what it is is valen went back in time as a half human and he started co-mingling minbari blood with his half human bastardization really yeah and it's really the minbari who have been now obviously by the time you get this far down the line you're like it's so minuscule dna that you would have from a human in your body if if valen was the only half human to be introduced into your whole species right regardless yeah.

[44:04] Regardless um and that the human like i want to know how they tested the others like did they hold up the triluminary to the others and find it as well because and here's why i say that the whole idea of what the triluminary was and i know this i don't think this is canon, but the piece that's floating inside the triluminary is the broken piece of sinclair's hand communicator right and so that's why it glows when it gets next to sheridan or any of his offspring who have his dna because it's coded to his dna it wouldn't glow if they tested one of the other pilots though unless they were connected on ancestry.com or something i guess hey listen you and my wife there we go uh-huh it's true um jeff's my cousin y'all yeah it's yeah yeah.

[44:49] Who knew uh a little removed but it's there a little yeah yeah for sure uh but anyway and and you know as fabio points out though we also know that because of the soul hunters and because of the episode soul hunter and the movie was maybe they're not great one that doesn't narrow it down i'm afraid but i think you're thinking river of souls river of souls there it is yeah that souls are a thing in this universe and frankly the way we see vorlons the way we see deconstruction falling stars when people evolve into like those are those are probably what the idea of a soul is so souls are a thing they're not getting reborn though into humans they're just there in minbari they're just being weaker or not as great as they once were although i would say that this show um doesn't state whether or not a belief system is true it explores the actions of those who think that it is true it's true but it also gives us there whether it's a whether you call it a soul or it's something else an essence or whatever dna the show has established that there is something something of the individual that survives beyond death in this plane yeah now whatever that is i don't know you know and the show doesn't answer that it leaves that to us it does i think it allowed the people to explore that and it gives us pieces and passing through gethsemane right we find out that the minbari overall belief is that we're all just manifestations of the universe figuring stuff out and so our souls return to that you know i don't know there's a lot of different ways that you.

[46:17] Can approach from it yeah i just think either way.

[46:20] The minbari are way off on their thought process here but it led to what was like whatever the minbari.

[46:26] Believe is not actually what's what's happening well and i think if we look back at the original treatment i think this is what the religious cast and maybe some of the worker cast believe warrior cast i don't think believes.

[46:37] Any of this fair we had all memory of the examination erased from sinclair's mind and we let him go anderson claire was the first there will be more there will be yes captain, We've got something major coming through the jump gate. It's a Tregotti. It's called a Tregotti. It's a Minbari cruiser. Gun ports are open and targeting systems are operational. Gun ports open mean a good thing. Right? They're just saying hi. Gun ports open are a good thing. It's cool. They're just saying hello. This is Elite Diran of the Minbari war cruiser Tregotti. We'll release our captain. Yeah, funny thing. If we refuse. He did. He's launching fighters.

[47:17] And the original theme. going into the lodge. Recall your fighters. Any attack on this station will be considered an act of war. The war has already begun, Captain. That's what I was afraid of. They're not going to buy the suicide. We are provoking them into a war. You don't have any choice. All fighters, intercept enemy craft and engage. Confirm, Babylon control. I feel like this is our first, like, big and great space battle. Maybe not great, but big and, like, good. Those are the Minbari fighters. Yeah. I mean, we had the Battle of the Line stuff. Yeah. We did have the attack of the raiders. What kind of tracking systems are we using? The Chrysalis. Standard XP-7 units, what? A little bit, yeah. Same can we use during the war, but that doesn't make sense. All fighters hold position. Sir, what are you doing? If they hold position, they're perfect targets. You know what I'm doing. All fighters confirmed. Maintain position. Effing star killing. Do not advance. Repeat, do not advance. If we're not allowed to fire, we're dead. This is where Sheridan needs to be like, trust me, you're fine. Hold your fire. You gotta wonder how many of these pilots served during the war. They're looping back heading for the Trogati. Exactly. But how did you know they... We've got something coming through the jump gate. It's another Mimbari ship. Hey, I recognize the Mimbari warships now. That's why they didn't fire. That's good. They're waiting for reinforcements. Negative.

[48:38] They're here because I called them. I knew the Mimbari government had sent another cruiser to look for the Trogati. But since no one's seen it, I figured they were waiting in hyperspace until they heard about another sighting. Looks like I was right. Slices it off. Turgati's engines have been hit. Unable to make jump. No change in life science. It's a clean hit. The war cruiser is ordering the Turgati to stand down and prepare to be boarded. Their response? Just one word. Oh, my God. Boss, shield up. Get down.

[49:15] The crew of the Tregati were heroes to many of our people. Their death will be mourned, and your name will be remembered. It already is.

[49:25] So we're good there, I think. In the chat, Fabio makes a really good point. What's that? Dude's all, they were heroes to us. How dare you do this? We're going to remember your name. uh you're the dude who shot them yeah right and he was just like a punk little like lieutenant they say it will take both of our races to stop the darkness i'm told that the earthers will discover all this soon enough on their own i hope they are right because if we are wrong no one will survive our mistake i really wish this is where the final battle would have gone, you know that it was it was going to take earth and minbar coming together in this major unified front and push and i'm not talking about sheridan and elena's a couple right yeah i'm not talking necessarily those two coming together to form the other part of the one or their child or anything like that i mean it actually takes the minbari and the humans coming together and working in order to defeat what we now know is the shadows yeah right also we know that there's more to it than just go defeat the shadows but still like i really, like i wish we would have gotten that story you know yeah i love the one we got right into the fire might be the single greatest hour of television i've ever seen in my life exactly, but i really like the story that lanier seems to be building in our heads right now oh oh coming out coming out of the cocoon.

[50:54] And it's gooey. And it's gooey. She's been in there for a while. At least a week. It's got to smell so bad. Like a butterfly. Look at those. Look at that graphic right there. That's so good. That's not great. But the other one was so good. Ear hearts for the first time. I'm not saying I'm mine. Looking at an entire squadron of Minnabari fighters right in the eye. We shall nobly save or meanly lose our last best hope of Earth. Our last best hope said the thing of Earth. Okay. Why is CNC completely empty right now? Because it's a maintenance time. It's late shift. Shouldn't that be a 24-hour, like, somebody's there, a crew is there all the time? You would think, yeah. But they did seed this in the first season. Did they? They talked about maintenance cycles that it runs through.

[51:52] Okay. All right, Brent. season two we're officially in it yeah what do you got on this one points of departure, man i really like this episode yeah i do i do i liked everything about this episode i like the tension i like the drama i like what as a hell of a way to introduce a new captain if you're gonna have to do it this is the way to do it man and you're you're we we know everything we need to know about sheridan from this one episode we know about his history we know about who he is as the character we know about how he commands we know about his strategist type deal the only thing we don't know about him is just his inexplicable love for nukes right outside of that like and we also don't know he's a conspiracy theorist no we don't know that yet you know i feel like there's a few other things about him we don't know that his uh go-to is woohoo it's true we also don't know that um he cleans his socks all the time yep yeah i don't know that not for a while we're not right right.

[52:52] One time. Well, no, one time. One time. Yeah. One time. One time. But yeah, no, I fully enjoyed this episode. I stand by what I said in my first watch. I really, I like this episode. It's good TV, man. And it feels like we're going somewhere. Yeah. It feels like the, you know, we've taken off the break and we've pressed it on the gas and now we're moving and we're not just spinning our wheels world building anymore. You know so yeah how about you i like it better than you said i liked it the first time, i think it was and here's why i was really wanting like the mystery to unfold you know around the the battle of the line and the hole in his mind and all of that stuff now looking back on it and i can see this episode for what it is if you never watched season one oh my gosh i'm eating my words from a couple of weeks ago if you never watched season one and you popped it on this episode you'd be fine you got everything you need they told you what you needed to know.

[53:57] Yeah it's the way it should be it's a good reset hey here's the big stuff that happened, here's the new stuff that's coming up and here we go and that's and that's a part of what jms has to do as a writer here right is he's trying to tell this over long story also he's writing in an era where everything is episodic yeah so people have to be able to come into the into the story and pick up with where you are in this case so every once in a while he has to give us he has to give us these clip shows without entering them into a clip show remember that one right, but it makes sense like we say every show is someone's first back in this time of tv every episode was somebody's first in the chat andrew says this was his the first episode of babylon five he ever saw you know and look at him now i know right it it did its job did its job pretty darn well what did you get for uh messages in this one yeah i wasn't really going down that path man.

[54:55] I was just enjoying the show this is a really good show i'll be honest with you like um i'm trying to think of something out of his speech there specifically but so much of this there's the information done by lanier there's the the here actually i this isn't a message but i think this is this is a poignant piece you have people that were battling 12 years ago to the point this became their identity they staked everything about themselves that they defied the the orders of the great council they went rogue their captain has just committed suicide yet again they've gone so far they can't go back yeah and they're only out now is death but they don't have any intentions of coming and killing anybody they just want to be killed but they want to have someone else killed them yeah you know i don't have a mirror to society off that i don't have a uh how to be better human being i don't yeah i don't i don't have a hope for things to be better in the future but i do feel like there's something there worth thinking about and dwelling on as far as how much you put your identity and you put all your eggs in your basket on this thing to the point that it literally you can't you can't ever escape out of that.

[56:19] Thing that you've placed your your value in what about you jeff do you pick anything up on this one i did i i i want to talk a little bit though about what you just brought up with, yeah that being one like not letting it go yeah you know this goes all the way back to midnight on the firing line in delen like when is it enough and how often do we hear stories even in our own history uh like we don't even remember why we're fighting right like this has just been going on for a long time and we just keep doing it and just that value in letting go is what it looks like when you don't but what i was stuck kind of like pondering a little bit was.

[57:01] Despite dude being mad that they had to blow the trigotti up killing them in a it's very cling on right killing them in a somewhat battle killing them in battle of some kind, was a mercy right like they were doing them a favor as as a catholic this is a weird thing for me to be sane, but sometimes it's the right, oh my gosh, I need to choose my words really carefully here. What I'm not going to say is what I'm going to say right now is sometimes it's okay to kill people. It's not okay to kill people. But sometimes the answer is the end.

[57:41] Right whatever the end is i'm reminded of when i had my uh my dog cora my old english sheepdog i had to put her down and i was so confused as a catholic right we say uh we honor we are we honor all life from conception to natural death um and and so like you know we don't believe in, assisted suicide euthanasia things like that um but i remember like i i put my dog down And like, I got hugs and I was kind of a hero. I'm like, good for you, man. You made the hard choice. You do this great stuff. And I'm like, if I did this to my mom, I would be a monster. Why is it different? Yeah. And so I just think, I don't know exactly what the lesson to unpack is in this, but just that there's one path where those people on their Tegades see where they're at and somehow have it within themselves to turn it around and rehabilitate and change and see the world differently. Also, not everyone has that inside of them. And answer could be what happened to them.

[58:46] You and I have litigated the whole idea of euthanasia before. And specifically, here's what we're willing to do with animals that we're not willing to do with people. Yeah. And I find that rather disturbing, frankly. And I don't know that there's a great solid answer and we're not going to solve it today right now either but there would have what if what if.

[59:10] Sheridan would have pulled the trigger and kind of given them the out given them their mercy, and then what if that would have triggered a whole new war and that's what they were actually trying to do which so like and that's the difference between here it is as an act of mercy or this is like death walker it's not an act of mercy you're going to do we're doing this to so that it will trigger this whole war. And now we're basically affecting Lee. We're making ourselves martyrs to our cause, you know, which way are you going to go with that? I don't know. And I think like most things, it goes back to not actually what you're doing. It goes back to why you're doing it. Yep. And who's, who's the person to sit there and, and, and divide the hair over why you're doing it versus what you're doing. So when that came up in the council chambers chat, a little bit around the difference between Santiago and Clark in regards to Sheridan and that Santiago knew some of the why of Sheridan knew a bit of who he was. Clark knew Starkiller and moved forward with that. It's the what and the why and the difference there. But that kind of dovetails into the other thing I picked out of it. And we avoided war because Sheridan saw the bigger picture.

[1:00:23] Sheridan knew things other people didn't know. And was able to piece it together in a way he's like, nope. We're just going to sit here. It's going to be fine. This is what's going to happen. Faith.

[1:00:34] Sometimes you just have to have faith. All right, George Michael. Got it george michael is such a great guy like it's it's a tragedy never met him he's no longer with us you know he he used to like volunteer not as george michael but just as dude wanting to volunteer to help uh you know people he would uh find people like pay their heating bills or whatever anonymously just to help people out that's cool he's a legit good guy that's cool yeah that's kind of what i got out of this one from a message standpoint well those were messages uh but jeff we have a sacred honor a sacred duty duty yes a sacred duty that is an honor.

[1:01:17] To take this episode and to place it in a 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking and all new season here jeff now season one our definitive ranking uh shuffled around a little bit from our first watch yeah you know i think in many cases it kind of stayed the same but there were some definite shuffles and inappropriate shuffles i'm eager to see when we get to the end of season two here where the shuffling happens i i was looking at it the other day i don't think we're going to move around or a lot in our top five really i don't i with such a strong top five right yeah i don't think we're going to go there but for now jeff it falls to you my friend to place this episode i know it's a tough task this week but where out of 22 episodes.

[1:02:02] Are you going to place the season or the first episode of the season points of departure yeah i just don't know this is a tough one to think i will say that in our definitive ranking of season two points of departure came in just over the, just under the halfway point at number 12. Wow. But for now, for this, listen, I'm sorry, before you do that, can we, can we talk about the season just for a moment of how it's going to go? Yeah. Cause this is a good spot to do it. Folks. I'm warning you. The first half of season two did not go so well for Jeff and I, the first time. It did not. No. A lot of people dropped out on us or they got really mad at us during the first half of season two. I don't foresee that changing too terribly much this time around. Stick with us. All right. Don't just listen. Jeff and I are going to be honest and true to where we are with stuff.

[1:02:57] Just stick with us. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're here. But considering that like the first half of the season was the fact that this episode wound up at number 12 and not higher. Yeah. What is like in half of the season, man. Baller to your earlier point, our top five from number five, the fall of night in the shadow of Zaha doom and third place, a race through dark places, the coming of shadows and the long twilight struggle, long twilight struggle, man. Hey, listen, there was a, there was a conversation earlier today in our discord about what episode, like, should you just start somebody who doesn't really have a super interest in Babylon five? Like where should you just start them? And we had positive way back when that severed dreams would be a good one to throw on. Right. Long twilight struggle would be a fantastic one. I, I remember my reaction to long twilight struggle. I was in, I was in Las Vegas, actually in the hotel where the star Trek experience used to be. And it smelled terrible in the room but i got physical i actually got goosebumps like i was it was oof it was moving we got a long ways though till we get to the long twilight struggle oh man we have the long second season struggle we have to work through.

[1:04:12] Buckle in folks that's that's much episodes i hope they're i have hope that they're going to be better i'm excited i'm excited to watch them even the long dark even a distant star i'm excited to see them because we're going to see them differently. Sure. Hopefully. Remember that when we get to season five, Jeff. Right. See if things change with Byron. Listen, I'm maintaining an idea that if it was all done on purpose, then it was brilliant. Can't disagree. Well, Jeff, where are we placing this one in our, our, our predict our prediction, our ranking? It is currently the number one episode in the second season of Babylon five. That is the correct answer.

[1:04:57] And with that, that will officially do it for points of departure next week, Jeff, we got a new episode on deck. Well, not new anymore. We've watched it once before. We're going to watch it again. This episode is revelations. revelations i remember this episode a lot jeff you don't remember this episode i remember i remember sheridan's sister sheridan's sister and we got this we got boohoo cry sharon sheridan, we got emotional sheridan okay you know which this is this is a thing about him we needed to know like i get it i just this episode i we're not talking about what our reaction was to this episode right now though jeff i want you to think back crank it back in your mind and think about what your prediction you're sitting in this spot at the end of points of departure the first time around and you hear the name revelations not the book of the bible the name of the episode, what did you think it might be about go well the book of the bible's revelation, there's that uh i thought this was going to be a throwback we're going to get talia winters and the vicar and we were going to receive some revelations from all this stuff that he uh he pulled out of her mind and we were going to learn more about the psych core.

[1:06:12] What did you predict for this one? I had a, I had a bold prediction. Okay. I said in, in this episode, Dylan was going to emerge from the cocoon. No, what? Yeah, dude. In fact, I, in fact, I laid a stake down. I was declaring it. I was promising that it was going to happen, uh, that she was going to emerge from the cocoon. And uh that maybe we'd learn some more about the prophecy we'd finally actually know what that prophecy was that we'd kind of been swirling around someday maybe uh-huh and and we would learn more about what's actually going on with the souls of minbari and humans and uh everything like that and uh.

[1:06:54] Yeah. That we'd find out more about what happened with the linen. It was all going to be about the linen, the cocoon revelations of her on chrysalis scene. Yeah. Emerging from the pupa. And, but I mean, think about, and, and unveiling all the stuff about the prophecies and everything. Cause that's, you know, she did this for the prophecy. So now we're, well, there's the prophecy, right? Makes sense.

[1:07:16] Cool. Well, we're going to do that next week. We're going to watch revelations. We're going to see if we predicted well or not and get our second time reactions for it. Thanks for joining us. And this watch of points of departure, if you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you are listening or watching. Give us a like, give us a subscribe, a rating, the five stars, all the different things that you can do. The one thing you can do, though, if you want to be of service, if the calling of your heart is to serve, you can do so by sharing this show, this episode, this podcast with someone that you know, love, or even despise. Either way let's get the word out and build our incredible community so until next time hey jeff yeah what's up brent hey um what what was it that our friend said um i remember they were talking about it back then that there's a doom on this show this podcast this youtube channel and.

[1:08:11] I think honestly man it's my fault and i i don't know how to say it but i think it's time for me to resign what why why would you do that just one word honor well if you'll hear me out speaking of honor it reminds me of this thing that abraham lincoln said he said that the dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present the occasion is piled high with difficulty and we We must rise to the occasion. We cannot escape history. For crying out loud, Jeff.

[1:08:47] Music. Under two hours. We're there. Despite your best efforts. I might have been trying a little bit.

[1:08:50] I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.