Rumors, Bargains and Lies

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we are watching Babylon 5 for the first time for you, the one who is.

Brent: Jeff and I are two veterans Star Trek podcasters, as he said, watching Babylon five for the very first time. Searching out for those Star Trek like messages. we're looking to see how they're being done in a uniquely Babylon five way.

Jeff: While this is not a podcast about Star Trek, those references are absolutely gonna make their way into our conversation. So to keep us on task, we play the rule of three. This means that we get up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek, a piece per episode. That's it. No substitutions. Exchanges a refund.

We have Brent, a five star review. Oh yes. This one's from Apple Podcast. I'm gonna pronounce the name incorrectly, so I apologize to Linda down. Linda says, this is a must listen for any Babylon five fan, new or experienced podcasters. Brent Allen and Jeff Aiken host a series where they watch, review, and predict what will happen next on Babylon five, just based on what they experienced from the show so far.

I love the insight from their years of Star Trek as they apply that to this classic show. Predictions are humorous when totally wrong with smi, with Sly smiles on the times when they hit the bullseye. Duane in Virginia.

Brent: Thank you, Duane. Jeff,

Jeff: Brent,

Brent: heard this quite a bit in several different reviews, and so I'm just wondering what you think the people think out there. What, what do you think are the, the insights that we have gained from our years of. Podcasting about Star Trek that we're now applying. What, what do you, what do you see it as?

I'm just curious.

Jeff: I think it's, it's, we don't just watch the show. I'm gonna, I'm gonna use, it's been a long time since we brought this up, but actually it hasn't been that long since we brought it up, but I'm gonna use tko as the example because here's the thing,

Brent: I'm sorry. TKO has got to be like the Babylon five for the first time drinking game. Every time Jeff mentions tko O, you guys out there take a drink,

Jeff: and I apologize.

Brent: you'll be.

Jeff: But really it, it, it is what that in those insights are 99 point a 5% of people who enjoy Babylon five have written off tko, or at best have said that one of the two stories in it was, was worth anything. But you and I as Star Trek podcasters, we had the insight to connect those dots and see the connective tissue between the two stories and see that they're interwoven and are both actually amazing.

And that T k O is, you know, a top five episode from the first season

Brent: It certainly landed in a top five spot

Jeff: in a definitive,

Brent: in a,

Jeff: objectively correct. Listing.

Brent: Yeah. That is immutable.

Jeff: Exactly. Well, Brett, we have another five star review. Yes. This one's from Spotify and you can't leave reviews on Spotify, but this person emailed us with their review and a screenshot of the, uh, the little five stars they put on

Brent: cool.

Jeff: This is from Gaius Ross. Gaia says, if you're a Babylon five fan or not, this podcast is a very interesting look into how science fiction can comment about society past and present, looking through a mature lens.

The presenters use their own life experiences to explore the episodes. The presenters don't always agree, but unlike a lot of media content, they're civil and agree to disagree. It is so refreshing.

Brent: I'm going to agree to agree with you.

Jeff: We are very refreshing.

Brent: We, I think we've all what we need to keep track of these words. This is a t-shirt, like it's you and me, and then it's all these words people have used, like delightful, insightful, entertaining.

Jeff: There is, it's a t-shirt or it's just a card that we can hand to our wives in those times that we, Hey, you know what? This is what the internet

says 

Brent: what? I'm delightful and insightful. Take

Jeff: Right? Can't argue with.

Brent: Oh, Jeff. Jeff. Jeff. We like to have our fun here at Babylon five for the first time. And one of the things we like to do for fun, and our last reviewer just mentioned it, when we get to the end of the show, we take a look at what next week's episode is title is going to be, and that's all that we see. We don't see any uh uh, thumbnails.

We don't see any show descriptions. We don't do anything like that. It's based on Title one. We make a prediction given our insights and years of podcasting into what the next episode's gonna be about. Sometimes we're wildly accurate, sometimes we're absolutely off base, and a lot of times, Jeff, we're kind of right in the middle.

We hit a few things and we miss a few things. Jeff, what did you say that this episode was gonna be?

Jeff: I thought this was gonna be Alen episode. But I thought it was gonna be Dylan on Minbar doing this stuff to really establish herself in that position of power to influence, um, all the strife and everything that's going on there. So I got correct that it was Dalen and that it was addressing, you know, some of

Brent: It was on Men Bar and she's addressing stuff,

Jeff: But they were on a ship. They were on a ship

Brent: eh, close enough.

Jeff: there. There's a menari

Brent: Yeah. They, they were in men bar's world

Jeff: yeah. Okay.

Brent: I'm gonna give you, I'm, listen. You, you shouldn't grade yourself. We, we have to grade each other. Like, that's the only fair way to do it. I'm gonna give you, uh, three-fourths of a, of a star.

What, how do we do this? Three-fourths of a star whatever. Three-fourths of a hole. However,

Jeff: very generous of you.

Brent: Cause it, yeah, I mean that's, that's a lot of what the episode was about.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. About you.

Brent: I said that this. Was gonna be Babylon fives in the pale moonlight. That's what I said. And I said specifically it was gonna be Sheridan doing something super shady to bring more people into this new alliance that he is forming yet again.

I also said, I really hoped it involved Londo and Jaar in a buddy cop mission. Uh, now that didn't happen. I'll leave it to you to decide if what she did did was super shady, but he a hundred percent was doing something that was at least not above table to bring other people into the, into the alliance.

Jeff: If it was anything, it was slim, shady. Just a little, a little

Brent: Wow.

Jeff: Sorry. That was, that was, that was bad. And we didn't get Jaar and Lando in a buddy cop thing, but we did get Jaar and

Brent: We did. We

Jeff: Right. So I think he absolutely was doing some maneuvering. It was, this was not in the pale moonlight, you know, this wasn't that level.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: But, uh, but I think that a lot of the foundation, what you have there was definitely happening. I'll give you, I'll give you a half on this one, a half of whatever we're giving.

Brent: I appreciate that. It seems a little low, but you know, whatever,

Jeff: I had to balance your generosity somehow, so.

Brent: by being mean, uh, Jeff. Well, with that, you and I have made our predictions about what this episode was about. Why don't you remind the folks out there who maybe haven't seen this episode in a while, or maybe they're just listening to us for the first time without ever seeing the episode period. us know what this episode really was.

Jeff: Well, welcome to a Twisted Web of Lies and deceptions that through the episode we don't actually work our way all the way through. Turns out that Kar and Londo did actually agree to let the white Stars patrol their space, but Sheridan's plan to use that as a catalyst to unite everyone towards a common goal isn't really working out the way he thought it would.

There's too much distrust, too much history of deception. So he decides instead of fighting that to lean into it, he sets up a series of well-planned Rouses cons and half truths to make. The league world's beg him for protection. He first has Londo and Ja deny evergreening to ask for help. He has Marcus blow up some asteroids in the middle of nowhere, followed by Ivanova reporting that nothing to see here, nothing to see here, move along, move along.

When the drossy grill him about the white stars petroleum sonari space, he plays coy and maybe, maybe my favorite moment in all of this. He has Franklin asked the league representatives to increase their medical blood supplies on the station. You know, just in case this builds to a crescendo where they demand to see Sheridan in the council chambers.

Begrudgingly, he shows up framed against a new backdrop in there that really makes it look like he's radiating light. They force him into a situation where he has no other choice but to not only assign white stars to patrol their space, but also agree that their forces, the league forces will accompany the white stars on any bigger missions.

Appearing defeated, he agrees, leaves the council chambers showing the decorum and the professionalism to wait till he is in the lift to celebrate his victory. Now he is not the only one leaning on rumors to set up secret bargains. Though Delan and her religious posse meet with Naroon and his warrior crew on a big old ship that looks like the one the great council used to meet on.

They meet privately to talk about a plan to bring peace back to Minbar where open violence has erupted and they're meeting Naroon lays the civil unrested to lens's feet. She's the one that broke the council after all. But Dalen encourages them to look to the future. And you know, looking back on the past, not, we don't need to dwell on that.

That's not so important. While they're meeting the cast, start spinning. The religious cast believes Dalen is gonna surrender to Naroon, so they decide to gas the entire ship, killing everyone better to die forgotten than allow the destruction of their people. Little do they know though, that Lenier overheard their whole plan.

The Warrior cast believes Naroon is gonna surrender to Dalen, so they just attack him, but he survives the attack. In the aftermath of his recovery, it becomes clear that no one was going to surrender to anyone. The religious dudes gently wipe egg from their faces as time runs out, as the gas is gonna go off anyway and they're all gonna die.

Enter Lanier Lanier with a Mik fighting style breather on snags the gas saving the day, but almost killing himself in the process he saved, but they had to remove some of his lung to do it, and when asked what happened, he protects the honor of his castmates and assures Tolen. The Warrior cast had nothing to do with this.

Feeling good about the plan and preparing herself for what has to come. Lanier delivers the news to her that Naroon has left the ship. He's in a shuttle heading into a jump gate, we see him reporting to Shai Elite, Shakar, I mean Shakuri, that he has all the intel he was sent to gather, and that this war should be won within the week. Brent, what rumors did you bargain with to work through the lies on this one?

Brent: I have no idea how my answer's gonna answer your question, but, um, here's the thing. This is another episode that I really enjoy. I enjoyed this episode. I, I really did. Um, I wouldn't call this one a banger. I, I, you know. Yeah. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. Really good Thelen stuff. Honestly, I'm a little unsure of what to think.

Um, you know, in this episode, we're told that the Maari civil war has started, but I can barely feel it.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: Like the, oh yeah, it's this big civil war. It should be something. And there's this whole piece where they're looking at images of minbar in the big city of Minbar, and they're like, oh, it's destroyed and it's in flames.

And I'm like, actually, it looks okay to me.

Jeff: There's like one plume of smoke

Brent: oh, that was later. That was in a later picture. Like the rest of them looked just fine. And, and, but you're the one with the plume of smoke. You're like, okay, I see some scorch marks, and people are like, scrambling, but they could just be running to, you know, for.

Yeah, but there you can barely see a few scorch marks and you can see this plume. But otherwise, the, the place just looked fine and it just, it doesn't feel like a full on civil war that they were pumping. Um, remember when the Narn Sonari stuff started? I felt that you're like, oh, this is big. Something's going down.

I, I just, I don't really get the same sense that much is happening. It still feels like they're just doing the, what, what do they call that? Uh, saber rattling. 

Jeff: Mm-hmm. 

Brent: know? It, it just, it feels like that's where they are in this whole situation. Now, the Sheridan stuff though, I adored. I loved, loved, loved the Sheridan stuff.

It was smart, it was intelligently written. It was funny. And if you can make me laugh, I'm gonna like the episode, you know what I mean? Um, I watched this one three different times, Jeff,

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: this episode has incredible. Incredible rewatch value once you know what Sheridan is up to and you see how he paces himself. It also is very interesting to watch the Dalen stuff, particularly with Naroon, knowing at the end he's going off and, and he's effectively betraying dalen their there at the end. Um, and, but the, the Sheridan stuff is really the, the part that seals this whole deal from the very beginning where he is just laughing out loud and people are like, dude, you are nuts.

You know? Uh, I thought, I honestly thought Jeff, he had like an earpiece in that they couldn't hear and he was listening to something. Uh, not, he was just sitting there thinking up something

Jeff: It reminds me of that person now who has the one AirPod in and is listening to a podcast or something and you're just like, oh, did you,

Brent: Yeah. Uhhuh, uh,

Jeff: it was, it was weird though for me that that scene particularly, cuz I'm not sure what we were supposed to walk away with on that scene, you know, cuz it was a given where he went, like, he had this brilliant plan that you talked about, but in there it's like, am I supposed to think he's going nuts?

Am I supposed to think like, what am I supposed to think? And I still, like, I only watched it the twice like I usually do, and I'm still not sure what we were supposed to think out of that scene other than ha like, because I played for laughs. I don't know.

Brent: I, I definitely played for laughs I think. Um, anyway, and then it all pays off with, uh, the, the elevator scene when Sheridan walks in. And I promise you, Jeff, you know what he should have said. They, he walks in the elevator and the elevator closes it, and you hear him go, yes. You know what I wanted him to say?

Jeff: I do 

Brent: know it's, you wanted him to say it has to be there. What'd you want him to say, Jeff?

Jeff: Woohoo.

Brent: Exactly. I need, I need that as a call. As often as possible.

Jeff: It needs to be Sheridan's

Brent: It does. It really does.

Jeff: I'll tell you what though.

Brent: It needs to be, you know what it needs to be is it needs to be for Babylon five at this point. What 47 is for Star Trek?

Jeff: And just have it in everywhere it fits. And you know what? If they're gonna leave that late on the table, I'll pick it up.

Brent: I got you brother. I got you. Jeff, what did

Jeff: be our thing.

Brent: what did you think of this episode?

Jeff: I really enjoyed this episode. I, I, I appreciate what you just said about not feeling the tension so much around the menari Civil War stuff, cuz I, I mean the, my note here just says they're fighting in the capitol, but the pictures look pristine. It's, and, and all the pressure intention between the casts is pretty much the same pressure intention we've always had between the cast.

What's new is the infighting within the casts, right? What I really saw was religious versus religious, which we saw last week as well. Um, or what, two weeks ago with, um, with Pharrell, the religious guy who came on and introduced the draw. But, um, so we've seen that and then we saw with the warrior cast as well.

And so it's like, it's a civil war, but I don't think it's so much a civil war amongst the casts as, as it's been made out to be.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: I think there's gonna be some, a lot of really incredible stuff. I feel like the Minbar stuff in this episode was meant specifically to set up at least the next episode. This was just getting the players on the field, kind of giving them a little bit of an updated backstory.

And then I think that we, we'll talk about it here at, when we wrap up our conversation, but that's, that's where I think this was all headed was for the next episode. But the Sheridan stuff, same. I

Brent: Do you think it's just for the next episode or are we gonna get this in a series of episodes?

Jeff: so I've a, I, that's my, that's my pre predict. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll hold it cuz it's, I have a prediction around what this is all gonna look like.

Brent: Gotcha. Um, yeah, I just, uh, it's fun. Let's start with the Dalin stuff, if you don't mind. Just get that outta the way cuz it's kind of the heavier pu piece and then we can talk about Sheridan stuff. Um, so at first I was like, Dylan's talking, Dylan's talking to, and she's like, did I do this by breaking up the great council?

And I'm sitting there going, yes you did. This is your fault. This is what I said What last week, maybe two weeks ago. This is your, you are the villain of the Babylon five universe. Sorry to Lynn. It's you.

Jeff: And Naroon was calling her on it, but it was also what I, what I, I, I loved the two of them together all the time because they were being raw and honest, but they were also being respectful to each other the whole time. And, and I'll touch on that later when we get to the closing thoughts cause that's what they're really focused on.

But like, he just called it out, like, you're the one that did this, this is your fault. But I also understand why Duc Kott, you know, like I, I understand. Why you are in the position that you're in, and I, and I respect you for that. I thought that was really great.

Brent: So the biggest problem I had with Naroon in this whole episode was the last time we saw him, he, for lack of a better phrase, bent the. To his inza

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and he called like for as much you remember, he had that big fight with Marcus and he comes in and, and they're all bloodied and he comes in, he goes, Intel's odd and, you know, talk about things that get dropped. There was, there was nothing in this that made it go back to that. Like they could have had the conversation they had today without having that whole intel zza thing and this conversation would not have seemed out of place. You could look at this conversation in light of that and go, oh, the reason he can talk to her, the reason he can be respectful is because of that.

But if you didn't have it, it really wouldn't change anything for this episode.

Jeff: I think it adds context to it, to be honest. I, I, the whole ranger thing, the until, uh, stuff is separate and distinct, right? Whether she was on the Great Council or not, whether she was religious cast or not, there's still that role of being in charge of the Rangers, which is for a Minbar group, is kind of a dumb name, right?

Like I, I'm sure there's some fancy Menari name for what they are. But either way, I think that was a moment of him deferring to, you know, deferring respect to her in that role. But up until this episode, he had never shown any respect to her as a quote unquote, pure Minbar. A leader on the Great Council Sati or the, the one, the Rangers were, you can lead the Rangers.

They're already this human mi and Minbar mix. That's cool. You are the leader of those people and it is a position of, uh, prominence and respect in our culture. But I'm great council, so like I'm

better. Yeah, he was, he was the last of the great council.

Brent: replaced you. And she broke it. I, I,

Jeff: I mean, I, I hear what you're saying. Like, it, it, it still could have not happened, but I think, I think that if you, if you bring the airplane up a little higher, it just adds to the context a little bit.

Brent: But, and I would go with you on that. If they even referenced it 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: in this episode, if they even said, if Naroon said something like, I respect you as an Intel za, but when it comes to Mbar in Warrior Class, you and I are not friends. If he said, you know, something, just to acknowledge what had happened before and why it's not necessarily falling through now, it was very clear to me right up until the very end, and, and I mean well done to j m s for how he wrote this episode.

Both, both the, the Sheridan piece and the, I'm gonna call it the Naroon, not really the Dalin piece.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: of them were huge subterfuge. That you didn't necessarily see exactly what they were doing until you knew at the end what they were doing and you went back for the rewatch. When you see Naroon in the rewatch, you're like, dude, you are a shady little Hmm.

And I know

Jeff: here's the thing. I think there's plans within plans going on here. I don't think, I think Nero's playing his own game, and I think that he had a subterfuge going. With, with Dalen and the religious cast, but I, I think what we saw at the end with him and Shakuri, I, I don't think that was on the up and up either.

Brent: think something he's, he's playing shakuri as well. And you know, and here's the thing. I could, before that, I could, before that, I just, I need some way, somehow for this, this thing with the Intel Zat, where Naroon came in and said, I'll, I'll respect this authority. I need that to come back somehow. You know, I, I just, it's gonna bug me, Jeff, to no end if it doesn't.

Jeff: I think I, in my opinion, it has to, that was a powerful moment. We both, we talked about that quite a bit, but I think, you know, when I talk about him playing Shakuri, when he was flying the little shuttle towards the jump gate and reporting out, he talked about how he stole their plans. He knows their troop movements and, and he knows everything to cut 'em off.

They never talked about those things the entire time that he was

Brent: Well, he didn't steal their plans. They came together to work on the plans together. So the, the inferences is they, they had those discussions off screen or they came together for what? Like what they're gonna try to do? I mean, he's playing double agent here.

Jeff: yeah. Cause I, I, well, I read it more as, as he was sent there, to either get their surrender or steal their plans and figure out how to shut 'em down. They worked on a plan

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: clearly, but I think that what he came out with was telling Shakira, yeah, I got everything that we need. But I don't, I don't think he got any of those things.

I think he, he's a triple agent

Brent: That could be, you know what, if I misread that ending the three times I watched this episode, I would be thrilled because that would be, that would make me happier. That would make me

Jeff: I, cuz I had a thought too, like, I understand from legacies that, you know, shy elite, that's like the general, you know, like the big shot rank.

Brent: That's what they called the dead dude that they were on parade with, right?

Jeff: yeah. So Shy, elite, Shaki, he's the general or whatever for the forces. But Naroon, we know that Naroon is on the great council. My question is, if Shakuri was as well, I'm curious what the, um, like pecking order is between them.

Does was he sent on a military mission, you know, as, as kinda the leader of the warrior cast? Or, or does he report to this Shakuri guy? Either way, I think Naroon is kind of playing his own game.

Brent: So one thing I did notice out in Aroon, and I've, I found this to be incredibly interesting when they first met each other on the ship, and you've got the, the religious cast standing over here and you've got the warrior casting over here, they're facing off, and here's Delin and her crew walking with so much purpose and so much bravado.

And she t-bones right in between them, you know, and she's stand, her shoulders are back and she's strong and she's, she's amazing. Like, yes. This is the delin that I want to see. What I thought was incredibly interesting was the placement of the people. Delin is standing in front of the religious cast.

Naroon is standing behind his warrior.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: know, and I thought that was such an interesting choice in direction. It might have been in the script, I'm not really sure. But I, I, it was an interesting visual to, to juxtapose how they were both approaching this whole situation. Somebody who is, uh, I mean, even with that, Jeff, somebody who's out in the open, they're in front.

You can see everything I have versus somebody who has something to hide and I'm, I'm hiding right here behind my guys, cause I have something to hide from you.

Jeff: Either something to hide or I'm just afraid you're gonna attack. So you want you to attack my minion guys up here and I'll be back here where it's safe and you can't get your hands on me

Brent: I'm gonna go with the artistic version of that from the point of the director, but

Jeff: I think either way,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: this was, I mean, two weeks ago when you declared Delen, the, the villain of, of the. A lot of what we talked about and we talked about it too, even though in the episode before that, where she's been faking it, faking it, a lot of it this whole time, she was not faking it in, in that moment.

She was there, it was legit. And I think for her it was one of those things where to, to, to bring a level of trust for everybody. Here I am. Right? If you're, if you're gonna kill me, kill me, right? Because if you're, if you're just gonna kill me here, clearly we're at a point where I'm not gonna be able to help.

So here I am, let's do this. And I think that was, it was brave and I think it was necessary as kind of that like offer, like yeah, we're legitimately here to talk about how do we come together. I thought it was interesting how, um, we talked about the Gray Council a little bit, but how they talked about how the Gray Council stopped diss.

Brent: Mm.

Jeff: the insults between the cast. They, you know, like they bottled everything in for everyone. And so, which, I mean, we've talked about it a little bit, but when Duco died and the Earthman Barr War started, they've talked about that as being a Holy War.

That could only a fire, that could only be quenched in blood. Oh, we, we've gone mad, you know, with this, and I, I don't get that. It doesn't make sense until you understand that there's a thousand years of basically repressed feelings and trauma between the cast that have been, that just in that moment got to explode and come out.

I thought that was a really fascinating, uh, insight into their society.

Brent: I'm glad you brought that up. Um, because they also mentioned that Valin prophesied that the Gray Council would be broken up during the Great Shadow War Now, Did that or did that not happen before? Sinclair went back in time.

Jeff: It was after, no it, it was before

It happened. before. he went 

Brent: So before Sinclair went back, he knew that this happened because he saw it happen, 

Jeff: Mm-hmm. 

Brent: Lan Lanier points that out. Like, hey, even Vallin said that. It was like, stop, stop freaking out about this whole thing being broken up. Like Vallin said it was gonna happen. And she goes, she goes, well yeah, but you and I both know that Sinclair only knew what he knew, um, and everything she said, everything's fluid after that.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And I'm, I'm kind of sitting here going, that doesn't make it any less prophetic though.

Jeff: E

Brent: Like in fact, if anything it makes it even more prophetic cuz it's not even like a prophet. It's more like, I've been there, I've seen it, I know what's gonna happen. The great council will break. That doesn't mean that the Civil War's not Dylan's fault, cuz it totally is, but you know.

Jeff: Well, cuz I think, I think that she, and, and we, you talked about this really well in an episode last season, but that whole thought of there's prophecy and then there's going out of your way to fulfill the prophecy, whether it's what the prophecy really was or not and how d when Dylan broke up the gray council, it was because of the prophecy.

Like she, she felt personally slighted by them and then she basically went and is like, you guys are a bunch of jerk heads and I don't like you. And there's a prophecy that says that you're gonna be broken. So you're

Brent: Join me and break the Great Council where her work Right.

Jeff: And, and when you think about that, I, who knows what Sinclair knew at that point, cuz he was.

Off kind of running the Rangers he was in, in hiding around the earth stuff that was going on. So what did he know? Well, he knew that the council broke up and that's what he put in the prophecy. Dalen went out of her way to fulfill that prophecy,

Brent: And it became a self-fulfilling prophecy,

Jeff: Exactly.

Yep. And had she not done that, would they be in Civil War right now?

And also does Valin know more? I'm still have this little thread that they never found his

Brent: He's not dead. I don't, I don't know that Val's dead.

Jeff: I think Valin might be in this time.

Brent: Yeah, because here's the thing. He traveled through time once he had atheros with him, who's to say he didn't go to the future as well? And we're gonna catch up with him here soon,

Jeff: Exactly. Cuz we had Zs with him. Atheros is also, there's also, you know, but we've got Zs at the machine, so anything could be.

Brent: Mm-hmm. Jeff, can I replay a moment for you? I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the full impression. Of how the episode went, and then how I went,

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: went. All right. Uh, so I want to, I wanna set you up. This is, this is Dalen, this is the religious cast, uh, talking to, I think the, it's the religious cast leaders talking to each other about Dalen.

Right. And she, she does something he doesn't like. And, and here's what he says. He goes, only Dalin can make that call. Really? Why can Delin be the only one who can make that call? She's the only one who the sex will all honor. Oh, cool. Thanks for telling me that. And it's like, I literal, I asked, he said it. I asked the question, he heard me and answered it.

Jeff, once again, speaking of time travel, we are, uh, going back in time and affecting the script 30 years ago.

Jeff: In real time, like while it's happening. Yeah, it's well

Brent: We're Bill and Ting this all over the place.

Jeff: People have no idea how much we worked to make this series happen for

Brent: Right,

Jeff: You're welcome. It was

Brent: said you tanked the reboot. No, man, we're here to build the reboot. You know why Jeff? Cuz we've always been here.

Jeff: We've always been here. It's fascinating with the religious people turning in, you know, spinning their wheels, telling their own stories and everything. But I think on the piece you brought up, she's the only one all the sex will listen to. Really? Again, I brought this up a couple weeks ago. A year ago they were calling her a freak and now she's the one person everyone will listen.

Is

it because 

Brent: two episodes. Her clan was like, Hey, we're about to call you home and ruin your life.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: We're really gonna listen to her. Okay.

Jeff: And everyone's gonna listen. Is it because she defeated the shadows or was it part of that? Like does that give her the cache to come in and just like start dishing orders out? But

Brent: because 

Jeff: no sense 

Brent: and this is where I go back to that episode a couple weeks ago where she went and did the dreaming, and she gets to the end and she's like, they're, they're all like, Hey, listen, we've got, we've got something else. If you don't tell anybody what's going on, and we'll just tell them that you're like the gift to the other guy, which is an old Menari custom.

And she's like, okay, Cole do that. If she would've said, no, I am going, I'm going to tell everybody what's going on. And in that way, people have kind of flocked to her. They'll listen to her. Now, that would make so much more sense than, oh, no, no, you are the dowry to this new alliance that we, or this new piece we have now made after this fight. You know, like I just, I, I really have trouble with that ending still from a couple weeks ago, but,

Jeff: Well, and, and how it reflects right here. You're the dowry, you're the reward, the, the peace off the whatever. But you're also the one person, everyone will listen to the, it just doesn't connect,

Brent: it doesn't connect any, you know, j I know, I I can hear the people out there Click clacking away. Guys, listen, I tried to go back and tell j m s to change this in the past and this one he wouldn't listen to me on. He just wouldn't listen. But I tried, I made, I did the, the best effort I could and you know, I can't want

Jeff: that's all that we can expect from you. That's it, and thank you for doing

Brent: You're welcome. I do what I can. So Lanier, um, I mean great, great Spock moment where he goes to sacrifice himself for the needs of the mini and he's even, yeah, I mean, it's Wrath of Khan all over again at the end. Except he didn't actually die. I was wor I was worried for a moment he was gonna die 

Jeff: I thought so 

Brent: like I was like, dude, they're writing him out.

Like this is how he goes. I was like, no, he's, he's gotta stick around. We can't, we can't lose Lanier. No.

Jeff: The, in fact, when he didn't die, when it was pretty clear he was gonna live, I'll say I, I keep teasing to my prediction for the next episode, and I'm sorry, you're probably gonna be disappointed, but, but to my, so much of this whole Minbar story, I think is just setting up that next one. If he had died in that moment, like I thought he was, then I would've thought this season was gonna go one way because he lived, I thought it's gonna go the way that I'm gonna predict.

Like, that was the moment where I was like, oh, okay, this, this is how things are gonna go from

Brent: Right. Um, the only other thing I have on this particular part of the, of this, uh, episode Jeff, is what Lanier gave as his reason for not Narcing on his fellow religious cast members. Are you gonna cover that later? Cuz I don't wanna step on your toes if.

Jeff: Actually no. You, you, you grabbed that. I have a whole other

Brent: Great. So, so Lanier comes in and, and you know, they're trying to say, Hey, exactly what happened and, and before saying, yeah, I saw them go do this.

So I went and got it back. He's like, I just happened to be walking by. I smelled the gas. I went and got it. You know, here we are. They're like, why did you do that? Why did you save us? And he says to her, he said, or he says to them, after Dalen leaves, Dalen believes, uh, this is me paraphrasing Dalen believes in what the mbar should be, what their potential is, not what they are. And, and he's like, and I'm not gonna destroy that for her because you guys are a bunch of a-holes and I'm not gonna destroy that. He's like, I know what you are, and I see exactly how you are and you see it too. She doesn't see everybody like that. And he said, and honestly, her way of looking at it is a preferable way of doing it. But I'm not gonna destroy that for her. For your sake.

Jeff: Well, he even said to them, I hope that you can see the world as she sees it someday.

Brent: Yeah, yeah. And you almost get the feeling like Lanier is straddling the line. Like he sees it for what it really is, but because of his interactions with Thelen, he sees it for what it can be. And Jeff, for the first time, I feel like I found a fellow Star Trek podcaster

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: that has been my experience in podcasting about Star Trek for the last however many years I've been doing it, is there's this idea of what humanity can and should be, what our potential is.

There's the idea of what happens in the future, but our potential right now, our potential for good, our potential for change, our potential to be a force O of positivity in our world. Right. But also as a real world person and not some fictionalized, uh, utopian concept. Uh, I also see exactly how the world is right now, and I feel like Lanier was right there in the middle of it, and I felt like I had a, a kindred spirit for a moment in, in, in the middle of all this.

Jeff: That was great. He lied to protect the honor of his castmates. You know, like that's what we've learned about Minbar. To me, this moment was the payoff. And I loved even the little piece too where he kinda like Dalen just asks straight up, did the Warrior cast have anything to do with this? And he looks over at the Yayhoos and he is just like, I can assure you, the Warrior cast had nothing to do

Brent: Right. So,

Jeff: Oh, so good. I loved it because he painted the picture of that better, that better future. But he didn't let them off the hook with it either. He's like, I, like you said, straddling. I'm gonna paint that picture of a better future. I'm also gonna hold you accountable right now for being the reason we're not there.

It was, that was amazing

Brent: It was a great moment. It was an absolutely great moment. Jeff, did you have anything else on the, this, this segment of the, uh, the episode?

Jeff: Not that we've already, we, we, we've already

Brent: Great. Okay, so let's get to the fun part are

Jeff: that's, yeah. That's good

Brent: Sheridan's gotta bring people in to the alliance. I love, love, love. This is what I wish they would've done with the Intels on the Naroon thing. They, they gave you a line to acknowledge it and move on. They hung a lantern on it, as they say. They said he, he goes, um, I'm having to assemble the, hold on.

My video's going weird. Hold on just a second. Uh, welcome to Behind the Scenes YouTube.

Jeff: There you go.

Brent: looks good. All right. He said, he said, we're having to assemble the alliance again. I've already done this once. It feels like we have to do this every four months. I was like, thank you. I was just sitting there thinking like, didn't we just go through this whole thing where we were bringing everybody together, what's going on?

And they basically said, look, it happened for that, and then it's done, and now we've gotta do it again, and this sucks. I was like,

Jeff: And to me that was a call back too when he was talking to Jaar and Lando, I think it was, I think that was last week when he says, you know, we, we united against a common enemy. Now we gotta do the hard thing and unite against a common goal. Cuz when you unite against a common enemy, once you've defeated that enemy, there's no reason to be united anymore.

And that's what we've experienced. Right. The, the bonds are a little closer, but then you slide back and a little closer and you slide back. And he's trying to create that without having to have an enemy necessarily.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: But it was fun. It was such a well thought out plan. He had everybody keyed in. You know, I, I, I thought it was great when,

Brent: I'm sorry. I'm gonna disagree with you. I'm gonna disagree with you.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: I don't think it was that well thought out. I think Sheridan was a hundred percent flying by the seat of his pants. Like each time he went to somebody, it was like he just had an idea of what to do. So he went over here. Oh. Oh. I could do something with them over there.

Okay. Let me go do that over there. It, it, it rang true to me as not well thought out. It was well thought out on the part of jms as a writer. This is, this may be one of my favorite written episodes from JMS that he's done just because of the intelligence of how he, he pushed it together. Uh, but I, I, I, I, sorry, Jeff.

I don't know that he really thought it out.

Jeff: I think he thought it out really well, but I'll, I'll, I'll say he thought it out really well in terms of a jazz composition, right? So I gotta get Kar and Lando to say these things over here. I need to get this group of people thinking that there's something happening and I can do that this way or whatever.

And then I ultimately, I have to get them to come and ask me for what I'm already trying to give them. So basically he knew his. He knew the changes, he knew the key, he knew the tempo, but everything in between, that was up for improv. Right. And so he knew the chart he was playing to, but he had to fill in, fill in all the pieces for it and, and was, and it was just, I, I still just, my favorite moment was just when all those league guys are outside and Franklin comes running through and he maybe just send me a little more blood in case.

Brent: Say, oh, I was gonna have to track you all down, but since you're all here, this is great.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Oh, that's the only one that we didn't see Sheridan tell him what to do. Like we saw Sheridan tell Lonnda what to do. We saw Sheridan tell Ivanova what to do. We didn't see him tell, we saw him tell Marcus what to do.

We didn't see him tell, um, Franklin, Franklin just came out and did it. And you're like, this is, this

Jeff: he said she was talking to somebody and he goes, I, I gotta go talk to Franklin and then I'm gonna go do this thing. So you got that one. So you knew he went to him. We just didn't get the, the feed. I'm glad we didn't because the payoff, like when he came walking by, I was just like, so, it's so perfect. But I think the way too, he, he just got all the league people lathered up. It showed a really great understanding of like, politics.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: I'm gonna say it's not even, it's not even so much what I say. It's what I don't say and how I don't say it. That's gonna get people freaking out. It was great. Did you notice though, when he, they finally did pull him into the council chambers and he walks in and he stands in front of the desk and he turns and like there's the scene of him there, like that backdrop behind him, like the council

Brent: You know, you said that in your, um, recap and I didn't notice that at all. Like that was news to me. I completely missed that.

Jeff: So go, go look at it when we're done. Cuz like, it almost looks like light radiating from him or like angel's wings. Like here's a, there's very much like, and, and maybe, maybe there's some Cy core programming going on in me. Cuz I saw that scene and I felt Garra Baldi in that moment where I was just like, he is, he's setting himself up as some sort of a, a savior complex, like a messiah setup and visually boom, there it is.

Like that hit me the second he turned and like the, and they framed him that way and I think it was even a new backdrop.

Brent: sad that I miss that because that's usually the kind of stuff that I'm, I'm all about,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: so I'm, I'm really kind of sad. I miss that. I, I gotta tell you though, um, the brilliance of this, I mean, this is inception before inception. Now, if you were to tell me that Inception ripped off Babylon five, I would sooner believe that than I would believe the DS nine ripped off Babylon five. Ha man. I, I'm sorry, Jeff. I just ignited a whole new storm of, of, uh, comments down there below.

Um, you can send all your emails to that, to Jeff at Babylon five first gmail.com. Um, but I just, I, I mean, this was great. The idea that he could. Put a thought into their head and make them think it was their own thought in order to accomplish his goal for what he needed was. And here's the thing, that's, it wasn't even like deepest level of inception.

No, no, no. This is like surface level. They fell for hook, line, and sinker on the easy level of inception.

Jeff: This is just seeing a fear and playing to that fear.

Brent: You know what the fear was? You know what the fear was? It was fomo.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: the fear of missing out. That's what they were scared about. Yeah.

Jeff: What are they getting over there that we're not getting When they left the council chambers after Sheridan walked out and they were all just like, yes, we got it, and he headed off to the, to the elevator. My immediate thought was, how many things.

In our lives, either as individuals or as a society that we feel like we won are actually this, where we got manipulated by someone else to think that this is the thing that we wanted. Then we got it. But all along they've been stringing us, stringing us down to

Brent: I mean, that's literally the purpose of every commercial you've ever seen in your life.

Jeff: Every commercial, every campaign, ad, every, it's, it's what I do every day at work. I need to take a group of people and align them to a common cause, the work that we're doing, and make them think that they're making all the ideas and decisions to move that work around so that they care about it.

Brent: Mm.

Jeff: It's, it's pretty wild when you think

about it.

Mm-hmm. 

Brent: brilliant. I do it with my kids all the time, but they're easy. Like I, you know, if I, if I need to get them to do something, I'll, I'll throw something out there and they'll turn. Daddy, can I, can I go to Nana's tonight? Oh, well, you know, I, I guess if you really want, do you really want to Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, thank you, because I really needed to go record a podcast tonight with

Jeff: Right,

Brent: you know?

Jeff: but he, but that, that step too, and Sheridan did such a great job with it and this, when that step of like, as soon as they come to you with, will you do this thing or I want this thing, you have to have that moment of, yeah, I don't know if that's gonna work out. Like, I'm just not sure. That last bit of resistance is the moment that like solidifies it in their brain where they're just like, now, now there's literally no way.

You cannot give me this thing. I will die on this hill. And you're like, yeah, please. Great. Now I can only give you what you want, but I'll save you from dying on the hill. I'm more of a hero.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

I tell you this too, um, don't play poker with Sheridan. The man's got a hell of a poker face. I mean, you can rewatch it. And he looks like he's about to bust out laughing. Like he has, like, it was, it was a masterclass in acting by Bruce Box Leitner to put a poker face on, but look like he's bursting inside all at the same time.

It was, it was so good. So, so good. Um, okay, so just to recap, basically what happened, the white star Fleet is gonna go out and patrol these borders and do what it needs to do to protect the worlds, but also to make arrest and to, to do things that they need to do. And they're now doing it with the permiss.

And the governments that are out there, they're not just, um,

Jeff: Not just the permission of, but at the

demand of these governments. 

Brent: And, but I mean this is, this is what Ironman and Captain America were fighting over. Look, we've got, we've gotta get their, their permission. We can't just go out half cocked and just do whatever we want cuz bad stuff happens. Like, you know, so Sheridan is clearly Team Ironman by the way.

I was too. Um, and in return for that, if something big happens, I e Earth comes to attack Babylon five. Um, wonder where this is going? The league is going to go out with the fleet to do whatever that job is. That's effectively what we got. Right. We'll go do this out there, but you guys are gonna come help us. Should something go down.

Jeff: Yeah, I think that the DR are still an ongoing concern and that Sheridan's aware of that. So he is like, I'll spread people out to watch for that, learn what we can, but ultimately, Clark's coming for us and I want them to come through that jump gate, need to change their Pampers, turn back around and go back to

Earth. 

Brent: Right, And then the other side of it, the maari civil War is going on. Dalen thinks she has teamed up with Naroon to come up with a thing. Dalen needs to put it into a STM mate.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: like, like I love what Dylan said. This isn't about religious cast winning. This is about nobody winning because if anybody wins, bad stuff's gonna happen.

But Naroon apparently is double crossing her, but it's possible he's triple agenting it. I love that idea, Jeff. And uh, here we are.

Jeff: Here we

Brent: So Jeff, we have reached that part of the show where it is time to boil it all down. And see if this has any of those Star Trek like messages. Does it hold up a mirror to society?

Is there a moral that they're trying to teach us? Is it giving us hope that we can be better in the future? And at the same time, how is it doing this in a uniquely Babylon five way? How is it doing this? In a way, star Trek never could even dream of doing it to go through that. Jeff, you are going to be doing the rating this week on a scale of zero to five Delta Furies as to how strong that message is and just how Babylon five it was delivered.

Jeff, what you got?

Jeff: How do you defeat an enemy that you cannot destroy, that like you have to live with after the war is done, during the duration, as Sheridan calls it, will you defeat that enemy with, uh, with kindness, with respect and hospitality? When Lanier went down, Naroon offered his personal physician to treat him because of the hospitality that Dalen extended him.

It was also interesting that he said that, and Dalen never even assumed any sort of like shenanigans or chicanery. She's just like, oh, that's cool. It's very good.

She, when they spoke, right, she ne she did not come in to that conversation. She came in like we talked about, confident, strong, but she did not come in with guns blazing. She did not come in looking to take Naroon down, and Naroon also didn't look to take her down either. They came and they tried to find common ground.

But you can't say the same for the group that they came, that came with them, the casts. Because in the absence of information, they assumed the worst. Just like Pharrell talked about two weeks ago. They didn't question the bad news when they came by and they said, Dalen said that there's no way the religious cast can win this war.

No one asked they, she said anything else, or they just immediately accepted that as bad news. But Naroon and Dalan, at least on the surface, came in assuming that there was hope. They came in assuming the best, and they put that into practice through their respect in their hospitality. So my theory that, again, you'll hear in my prediction is that Naroon is on the up and up.

I think that him leaving the ship is actually part of their plan and he's actually deceiving Shakuri. So assuming that we have to assume that for this all to come together, the approach of respect and hospitality paid off, whereas the castmates. Who lied, worked behind each other's backs, attacked each other outright, almost killed each other because they assumed the worst.

Right? The difference between that assumption upfront. But don't mistake that assumption for weakness. Neither Dalen nor Naro letting themselves get walked on in any way. They're standing up for themselves and their people, but literally all their people, they're enlisting. Each other's help by focusing on their positives, their strengths, and their shared values.

Deen says that while she often agree, Deen says that while she often disagrees with Naroon, his intentions have always been for justice and not his own gain. He says to her that while he's been very unkind to her and has openly opposed her, which would've been a really cool time to slip in that Nilsa uh, reference, he did say that he's begun to understand why Duc Kott chose her.

They agree that neither of them are in it for themselves. Which is a big step for Naroon from his last, one of the last times he talked to Len. But through that, they hope to bring peace to a broken world. Now we can do that too. Here now today. Stop trying to prove that you or your group or your affection or your party or your whatever is right and the other is wrong.

In fact, like here they say that it's imperative that neither side can win,

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: that's true for us as well. Instead of us taking others down like the castmates tried to do here, we can do it. Dalen and Naroon did, and try and build each other up and show that what we offer is good and worthwhile Show.

Show it, do it. Don't just talk about it and tell it, and don't force the fight when there doesn't need to be the fight. I think this was a beautiful message. It was delivered in a harshly Babylon, five way between them. And then when we add that incredible moment with Lanier that we talked about during the discussion, Brent, this is a five Delta Fury

Brent: Wow. Wow.

Jeff: and I didn't even touch on the stuff that Sheridan was doing in there.

But yeah, this was, this was definitely, this is five Delta Furies for me. For me.

Brent: Okay. I, it maybe is a little higher f than what I would've done. Uh, I probably would've gone three and a half, four in that range. Uh, but, but five is certainly understandable. Um, I love what you said about them showing pieces, you know what I mean? And as, as a thing that we need to do. Stop, stop trying to prove that you are right and they're wrong. I'm sorry. Let me, let me, can I amend that? Stop Just trying to prove that they're wrong.

Jeff: Oh

Brent: I ain't worried about whether you're right or not.

You're just trying to show how they're wrong. Like it's not about that. If you can harness, like, think about that. If Dalen and Naroon actually could come together and harness. They're, they're, um, individual

Jeff: Their strengths, their contributions, their, their values.

Brent: that are unique to themselves. Things that Dalen can't do, things noone can't do, but if they, they compliment each other on that, if they can harness that together, they literally could stop a civil war, literally could stop a civil war. And we haven't even mentioned the worker class coming over yet and doing anything like what's, you know, what needs to happen is like the religious cast and the warrior cast need to like, shove off and the worker class just needs to be in charge for a while. You know,

Jeff: Right?

Brent: just, just let that happen.

Jeff: It's like, this clearly is not working. Let's try something because, cuz in all of this, where is the work? Like are

Brent: Well, okay. I mean, think about it this way. Like I, I, we've never really talked about the caste system and how things are broken up. Right? But your religious folks thing about this. Your religious folks is a very specialized, usually a very small group of.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Your warrior folks, again, a different kind, but also a very specialized and relatively small ratio of people to the population.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Everybody else out there should be worker, cast. Like that's your citizenry, that's everybody else, right? If those are the only three casts that exist, cuz you haven't talked about your artist cast, you haven't talked about your, um, I don't know, your money 

Jeff: of that came 

Brent: business cast, you haven't talked about any of that.

So

Jeff: some of that came up with Duco, where Duco was like the workers didn't want to reach out to the humans cuz they were afraid that there wouldn't be a market for art for artifact like that. All those things are encompassed in the worker cast. So it's like, yeah, it's should be

Brent: think about this though. And, and this is where we get this wrong. Throughout all of human history, human history, the religious and the warrior, the church. And the military. Both of those organizations exist to serve the population.

Jeff: Exactly.

Brent: The Warrior cast and the religious cast should, in theory, exist to serve the worker, cast.

The worker cast should actually be in charge with them being supported and propped up by these other two casts,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: not necessarily being on equal foot, you know, and, and I mean, I don't, I have no idea what they're gonna do with this whole deal. What I know is we haven't heard BCUs from the Warrior cast, or I'm sorry, from the worker cast.

And frankly, they really should be the ones in charge. I think if you think about it.

Jeff: And if not in charge, I don't know. They should at least have influence.

Brent: Well, uh, then they should honestly have, but what I'm saying is not just have influence or equal influence like the Great Council, where it was the three in equal parts. It should have an unbalanced influence on the part of the worker cast because frankly, they represent a much larger portion of the, of the population.

Jeff: Yeah, no, I, I, I, I agree with that, but I'm saying that right now, currently they should at least have, like, they should if, if there's a civil war happening. And there's some attempt to broker peace, the worker cast should be a part of that conversation cuz whatever terms come out of whatever happens is gonna influence them just as much as everyone else.

And no one has even said the term worker cast outside of the flashback to Duco.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Like that's messed up.

Brent: Yeah. Yep.

Jeff: But I do love what you said, that they should, they, they exist to serve cuz that is what they

Brent: But, uh, and, and that's, I mean, think about human history every, I mean, every time the church has taken over. It doesn't go well. Okay.

Jeff: Every time the military has taken over it has not

Brent: exactly. Exactly. As every time those two organizations have not supported and served the population, but tried to rule the population. Bad things happen in human history,

Jeff: Yeah. Lot of people die, lot of bad things happen.

Brent: things start going bad.

Jeff: Those momentary like breaths of peace that we've had over the 10,000 ish years of recorded history have been when the, what we would, the, the menari would call the worker cast have been in charge and people are just like, Hey, how do I show up and make cool things?

Brent: right.

Jeff: Let me do that.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: Oh, Brent, we are creating the absolute 100% completely accurate in definitive ranking of the episodes in the fourth season of Babylon. Five, our current top five or into the fire, the Long Night Atonement. Whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi in this summoning? So, Brent, where do you put rumors, bargains, and lies.

Brent: All right, Jeff, I'm gonna need some help.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Remind me of what happened in the summoning.

Jeff: The summoning is when, uh, Sheridan came. From Zaha, Dom

Brent: Well, that was, that was, that was the final shot of the episode, right? What happened in the episode? Up to that spot?

Jeff: Well that was when they were gonna take, uh, they were gonna bring Dalen out and call her out for, she just decided before that we are gonna go and we're gonna get the shadows. We're going in one week, people one week. And I'd made that up entirely.

But we're gonna do it and I'm gonna rile everybody up about it. And the other races that had enough of that.

Brent: Yeah. And we started really hating the emperor at that point. He started getting super disgusting. All right. Whatever happened to Mr. Gu Baldy? Um, that episode was more, that was, that was like the, the, that's the one we really found out about Sheridan and what was going on with him. And I think we didn't find out a whole lot about Gu Baldi, just that he was in some room with Cy Ward folks.

Jeff: Yep. 

Brent: Um, I did like that episode, Jeff. I liked this episode a lot. I had a, I had a lot of fun with it. I, I don't think it was this huge banger, but I do enjoy it. Does it crack the top five? I'm gonna say yes,

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: put it right. It's gonna be our new number.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: putting this right underneath. Uh, whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi and the summoning? I thought the summoning, the summoning was a good episode. Um, I feel like it was more information, you know, dump if I'm remembering the episode correctly.

But, uh, I, I just, I, I thought it was a fun episode all the way around, even with the stuff.

Jeff: That's it for Rumors, bargains, and Lies. Next week we're gonna be watching Moments of transition for the first time. This is the prediction game we've been talking about all episode. All we know is the title and everything that's come up to this point. We like to guess what's gonna happen in this one.

Brett, what do you predict is gonna happen in moments of transition?

Brent: So, um, I, I, We've gotta continue with the Mbar Civil War. That's gotta be, that's gotta be a, a piece of it, I think. Um, I am, I am going to sit with Naroon being a bad guy and he's double crossed. Dylan, I'm gonna let you take up the, he's actually a triple agent, but I'm gonna go with, with Naroon is actually a bad guy. I think he and Dalen are gonna come together and they're gonna work together to reform the Gray council.

And Naroon is gonna somehow weasel his way to be the leader of the Gray Council and not Dalen. And, uh, I think he's effectively gonna seize control of the Mbar government is what's gonna happen. And this is part of how they're going to further the, uh, the Civil War is literally by taking over the government.

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: What are you think.

Jeff: I think the Civil War ends in this

Brent: And what really? You don't think this is I've, Jeff. Okay.

Jeff: The minute that Lanier didn't die, I was just like, okay, they're, they're gonna wrap it up. It's gonna be fine. Had Lanier died, people would've got Thelen, other people would've got fired up and this wouldn't go well. I think that it's gonna end, I think that Naroon is gonna double cross Shak Securi. I think that he and Dalen are gonna have a plan.

That they put together here, they're gonna execute a lot of it. But I think that the moments of transition are gonna come in Nero's choice on how he's going to bring everyone together. I think Naroon is going to, um, eliminate the caste system. And I also think he's going to do so by doing the Chrysalis thing.

Brent: No,

Jeff: And he's, I think he's gonna, I think he's going to transition and become another, um, one of two things. Either he'll do it the same way that Dylann did and be, maybe he's got the human dna, n the va, maybe he's also a child of vain. And, and he'll go half and half like she did or hill chrysalis thing and he'll become, uh, he'll, he will renounce his warrior hood and become, I, I am warrior religious and worker.

I am all casts.

Brent: so you think Naroon seizes control of the government?

Jeff: No, I think not Caesar's control, I think, I think that he ends up the head, I don't have to say he reforms the government, I'll say that, but he does so in a whole new paradigm. He gets rid of the caste system, um, and, and sets up, helps set up. He and Dalen will help set up a new government, but I don't think he'll be the head of it necessarily. But I think we agree on some key points that there will be a new government that Naroon is very involved in building.

Brent: I hope it's a good, like we're, we're close enough to the end now where certain story threads need to start getting wrapped up. We just wrapped up the The VLAN shadow war, right? Like whatever they've got changing around with the imbar that needs to wrap up. Whatever's going on with Garra Baldi, and it's not right.

That needs to start coming back. The Cycore thing needs to start coming back. You know something. We never really fully explored the connection that Earth had to the shadows. We saw Morgan in the office of the Senator with Cyco. There's this triumvirate we saw that way back in season two. Season

Jeff: That, no, no. Season three matters of honor. We

Brent: the first episode.

Jeff: Yep. 

Brent: we saw that all the way back then. We haven't done a lot with the whole Earth Shadow thing.

Jeff: Well, and, and that too, cuz Mor was like, Hey, we're cool. They don't, they don't know we're here. And then the Cycore guy was like, actually, we can use this to advance our program. Which program was that?

Yeah. What are we

Brent: So, um, uh, w we've, well, I'm just saying we've gotta start wrapping up things so you could be right that this really is about, uh, wrapping up the, the Civil War. 

Jeff: I think it's gonna be pretty quick, 

Brent: I'd be okay with that.

Jeff: and we'll find out here next week. Thank you everyone for joining us. Please subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. Leave us a rating review. We'll read it here on the podcast and share, share this podcast with someone who either already loves Babylon five or is right about and just about to fall in love with it themselves.

So, until next time, uh, what, until next time,

Brent: That's,

Jeff: we're trying to wrap this show up. Breen, are you okay?

Brent: yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.

Jeff: All right. So until next time.

Brent: Jeff, Jeff. Hey, I've got it. I've figured it out. I know how we're gonna end the show today

Jeff: Okay. I mean, we have it here, but how, how, how are we gonna do that

Brent: by not ending the show today.

Jeff: in Valen’s name