Severed Dreams | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name's Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon five is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. And while we are doing that, we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that may or may not be contained within, you know, those things that hold up a mirror to society. Jeff, I have to ask you, my friend, is this dumb for us to do? What, What could a 30 year old television show possibly have any relevance in mirroring society today? Absolutely none. It's not possible. How is it possible? So out of touch. We're also looking for things about, I don't know, hope for the future that things can get better. We certainly could use that. Or maybe just teaching us how to be better human beings to one another, which we definitely need. Now.

[1:57] That being said, I have word of warning to issue to all within the sound of my voice. Jeff and I have been through this entire series once. That's why this is the second time. That's how it works. Math is a thing. What that means is this is your one and only spoiler warning for the show. Jeff and I are free to talk about anything from any point in the timeline, from anywhere in the franchise, anywhere in the canon, out of canon, in universe. Out of universe it does not matter all is fair game for jeff and i to talk to you're like it's a 30 year old tv show who cares i just say what you gotta say i'll pick up on it later listen this show not how you want to do it and i promise you this episode especially not one you want to be messing around with jms in his own stuff said hey uh if you guys haven't watched maybe don't start on this particular episode to head just a heads up what you can do though is go back and check out our very first watch what is completely spoiler free because jeff and i knew nothing back then in fact we're going to explore a little bit later on just how much nothing we knew now that we know everything so that being said your spoiler warning has been issued you should leave Why are you still here? Go! For this week, we are closing out the trilogy. It is Severed Dreams.

[3:26] I remember, all I remember from my first time watch was... Perfection. Like here it is. Finally. It's perfect. I loved, I love the earth stuff. Like, in fact, one of the things in me and our first time watch is I multiple times made the comment, eh, this shadow stuff is kind of, eh, I'm really more into this earth stuff. And so I, I was lapping this up. I was all about it. I had a lot of questions about Delenn in this one and her role and like, how, how can she show up and dissolve the council? Like that made no sense to me whatsoever. I, it's a thing that I'm very, very curious if, uh, I see that differently.

[4:09] Watching it here on the second time, but I don't know how separate this episode to me was, uh, just about complete perfection. The first time I watched it, do you remember what you thought about it? Yeah, Jeff, this might be my second favorite episode of the whole series. Yeah. That makes sense yeah maybe see the thing is every time i say that i forget about sleeping in light i still think that that stands on its own like yeah like it's it's its own thing you can't put that in the ranking because it's just going to obliterate everything else like like to me my favorite episode of the whole series it might be my favorite episode of television period is season four episode six into the fire i think is the title of the episode it's the one where we wrap up the whole thing right get the hell out of our galaxy it's actually the series finale yeah right right um so that's that's just an incredible episode long twilight struggle everybody knows who's been around for a minute it's that is top tier for me but this one i love war without end as well i i really do a babylon square and all that but this is just peak peak peak.

[5:18] Television this is the episode that makes seasons free season free for season three so freaking good i personally like season four better jeff and we discussed this i don't remember if we talked about this on mic or off mic i tend to like the wrap-up i tend to like the third the third episode of an arc more back to the future three return of the king those tend to be my favorites of the films return of the jedi is my favorite of the star wars film Revenge of the Sith that other third one in the Star Wars franchise that just should not exist does not that is the outlier uh this is the third third one I think that that might be like I wonder if this isn't just so good because it's my own preference for conclusions you know or it's just that good objectively season three is probably better than season four but I still like it, Although I gotta say this is where Babylon five, not just declares Jeff, but shouts it from the rooftops megaphone slams the door shut on any.

[6:28] Writing coattails of anything else. They declare their independence, both within the show and metaphorically, metaphysically, meta, whatever Babylon five as a show declares its independence as a standalone sci-fi series that is not to be trifled with. Brandon, it's interesting you say that. Oh yeah. So I went back, I listened to our first time conversation on this one. And I actually know what you truly thought about this one the first time around.

[7:03] All right, I'm ready. I just captured a quote at the front of it. You said, and I quote, I loved every single moment of this episode. It felt like it was 15 minutes long. Loved it. The space battles and everything looked incredible. And your only gripe was like the firefight, fight the ppg battles and stuff looked awful and terrible but you were like they looked awful and terrible because they spent all their time doing the stuff in the space battles and so it's totally okay can i tell you something yeah can i tell you something spoiler alert i'm gonna read jms's words here in just a few moments oh that's exciting i love that when like our stuff lines up okay hit it wait where is it where is it oh i didn't copy it down that's exactly what it was really it was it was ppg ppg effects take so long usually we're only doing like one or two it's not that big of a deal to do as much as we did here if we would have spent all that time we would still be putting them in and editing them out so they just had to get cut that's why because we did everything else that's why you got the crown buddy jeff airhead no let's you and me buddy together air high five, we nailed it that was a good one yeah.

[8:15] I thought it was awesome as well. One of my favorite things that I actually forgot about in, uh, remembering what I thought about it the first time, but we actually meet Sheridan's dad in this one. And I love that, like what was potentially the last thing he did in his life. He chose to call his parents.

[8:35] I noticed the thing about like in the bathroom or doing laundry or whatever she was doing. Yeah. She was, she was out to town. She was grocery shopping or something. Something. Yeah. I really appreciated how they handled the Len in this episode. She had three really big moments in this one. There's a one-to-one conversation that she has with somebody. She has her interaction with the Grey Council, and then she shows up in front of the big, you know, the ships and the Earth Force moment that she interjects. And each time we saw a different face of Delen, right? And we've talked about this before, how, you know, you've got wise Dillon you've got badass Dillon you've got you know partner Dillon we see them all in this one played to perfection that's why Mira hasn't been in the last couple episodes they're saving her for this one because she's doing it all it's the whole like with withhold so when she it's like she's going to be amazing and it's going to be even more amazing because you've missed her so but just like Sheridan said last week I wish she was here we did too and now she is.

[9:41] Speaking of her and the Grey Council, we spent a lot of time, we were very confused about the prophecy that she brings up. She uses it to break up the council, and we just kept going back like, the prophecy was this, and then it's this. How many prophecies are there? What is it? And we landed, I think, in a pretty definitive spot, and that was that the prophecy is adjusted as the plot requires. One of my favorite things when we listen to our first-time episodes are the theories. that we came up with. Okay. I had a theory that as we came out of this whole secession from Earth and everything, the Rangers, Droll, Epsilon III, the Narn, Mars, Orion, Proxima III, all of these players that have come together in this would come together under one single united governing umbrella. I called it Babylon 5. And then I got a buzz because I'm like, actually, it's going to be basically the United Federation of Planets. Right. And then your theory, building on that one, was that initially Sheridan is going to become officially the governor of Babylon 5. Okay. And eventually become president of this whatever thing that is formed. Oh, yes. Yep.

[11:02] Nailed it. I'll take it. I'll take it. You had another theory that, man, it would. By the way, Jeff, from this point forward, I'm going to lay this out there, and sorry if you folks get tired of it. Every time you and I hit a prediction that we nailed or something, that's that sound. We're bringing Jakar back, baby. Awesome. Might be our best drop.

[11:23] It really is. Well, I mean, never be as good as. I knew you were going there. I don't have green loaded up, but it doesn't need to be said. It's that good. You had a theory that would have been so fascinating, I think. You thought the warrior cast, the Minbari warrior cast, was going to ally with the shadows. Hmm. Jeff. As Brent reviews the Babylon 5 scripts, specifically the initial five-year pitch. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't even know where it is in this book. It's in there somewhere. Near the end. Oh, let's see here.

[11:59] Wasn't the Mimbari warrior cast going to wind up aligning themselves with the shadow men? The shadow men, yes. Wasn't that a thing? I'm not wrong on that, am I? I don't remember, to be honest. But if you want to remember, on our channel, on our YouTube, we have the whole reading of that. That is done by an actual voiceover actor. a professional human who does this. Yeah. Right. But we asked one big question about that theory. And that was, how does one ally with the shadows? Like we were even wondering, you know, just all of the different races and stuff that have been going to war because they've got agreements with the shadows. Like, how does that even happen? And my response was Anna Sheridan. She shows up and negotiates the alliance and if she's not around it's morden but they're out there doing their work jeff oh yes you get it baby right and i know listen i as soon as you said that, everybody on our discord in red sector which for those of you who don't know was a place where jeff and i were not allowed into we don't know they all.

[13:09] Poop their pants. Yeah. They spooned their pants. There you go. Every single one of them. They spooned their pants to this day, to this day. I can't believe that like no one freaked out enough to be like, how did you know? It's like, it was a total shock when she showed up as amazing. We really liked the conversation that Sheridan had with his dad. Thought his dad is absolutely, absolutely incredible. A couple notes that we had from it was like John Sheridan calls his dad and immediately becomes Johnny. Like, he's just a kid again, talking to his pops. It was so great. We couldn't believe, though, at the end, we're like, both of us, we're like, just say, I love you, Dad. Like, just say the thing. And he said, love you both.

[13:56] And then later on, there was something else that comes up in the series, and we made a quote. What is it with Sheridan men not saying the things they need to say in the right moment? Right, right. And then of course, this is where we get the incredible line of never start a fight, but always finish it. Yeah. Yeah. I had a real problem at the very end. So like mission accomplished, we've seceded and everyone's standing there in their earth force uniforms with their insignias and everything. And I was like, you seceded. You can't do that. Yeah. But you countered. No, they should do that because they're the real earth force. It's the others that have no longer deserve to wear the uniform. Yeah. Agreed. The one thing I still say that. Yeah. No, I think, and you said something about that last week and I think it's just, it's a really great perspective. They're, they're holding the standard down. Yeah. I, if, if I may, Jeff, because you said something and I can't let it go.

[14:57] Here we go okay from page six of the series brief as written by jms in 1990 something or 80 something even maybe this is towards the end of season five at the same time the mimbari military cast growing ever more worried about the way this is going stage a coup and take control of the great council they order the exile of all council members the death of sinclair and delen and a resumption of hostilities against earth you're not necessarily allied with the shadows but they're on the enemy list it says later season five ends with an assault on and the destruction of babylon five by the minbari oh yeah i'm just saying that's close enough for government work they might not have been actual quote-unquote allies but they were enemy of my enemy in it over there you know what i mean they were they were holding the dream yeah last thing i have from our first listen um I wasn't sure if I was going to bring in or not just because of at the time we record this, there's stuff around this. Yeah. This is an evergreen show and I want to capture it. And it's in the first time watch anyway.

[16:03] But one of the things that we were hit with between point of no return in this episode was just what appeared to be the ease in which President Clark declared martial law. Like he was basically Michael Scott in the office. I declare martial law. Right. That's not how it works, but it did, but I went in and did some research and I was like, what does it actually take to declare martial law, at least in the United States?

[16:30] And it is not an easy thing to do whatsoever. Um, it was codified in 1807. That's how early that we were looking at like, Hey, we need to have controls in place so that someone can't just declare martial law, uh, and the insurrection act. And my big takeaway was when you operate within the law, this is what we had talked about in the episode. When you're actually following the law, it is near impossible to declare martial law. When you're not, you end up with a president Clark. It's a good first listen. I highly recommend. You already alluded to it and gave us a little hint of things. I can't even, I mean, sit back, buckle up. This is probably going to take some time. What did Joe Michael Straczynski have to say about this episode? So much. So, so, so, so, so much, so much. But Jeff, I'm going to take a play out of your book and I'm going to save a lot of this for our actual recording to get into that. But there are a few things we go. I do, I just want to point this out. This episode won a Hugo award for best dramatic presentation. I really meant to look up and see who they won against. I really hope it was Star Trek. I'm a hundred percent sure it was. I'm positive. It was when it happened. I mean, they're going to be in the running for best Hugo every single year. So, um, and well-deserved and just question. Well, I'll say just pause a minute. The answer will show up in the council chambers chat. It will. And just three, two, one, come on, come on, come on. They disappoint.

[17:57] Having a whole other conversation over there, um jms talks about talking about this episode says a normal episode has about 60 to 75 shots like that's camera shots right so this one had over 100 or had right around 140 oh my god yeah it was a big episode big big episode uh the title severed dreams jeff titled severed dreams i don't know if you put these two things together it is a direct reference direct reference direct whatever reference to the idea that the ea and babylon 5 was a dream given form oh and they have now been, severed on that dream isn't that what i said in my prediction for this they're going to sever from the dream given oh there you go nope wrong thing oh yes i moved my buttons around.

[18:53] Oh my gosh uh let's see here um speaking of mira in this particular episode i'm going to read directly what jms says and then we can comment okay so the funny thing is as much as you meaning the people jms is talking to at this time note the show corresponds to some of the things that mira has been through in real life some of it is intentional he put it in there intentionally knowing that if i dig into this area it'll come out of her with the ring of truth some of it very unintentional when i finished writing severed dreams and the actors got it mira's first words to me were so how long did you live in yugoslavia wow the parallel was not intentional this time but it fit that's powerful so let's remember as we go through this that uh.

[19:43] Particularly her scenes. This is coming from a deep place, deep, deep place within. This episode was up against the movie Star Trek First Contact was up against the Deep Space Nine episode Trials and Tribulations, which was a phenomenal episode. And as much as I love that episode, this one beats it. Independence Day is a film and Mars Attacks? Dude, Mars Attacks is brilliant. Not quite in the same category, though. Oh, no. You should go watch it again. The commentary that it lays down is, oh, it's an indicting film. All right. You know, last week you and I talked a little bit about what's going on with Papa Franklin. Yeah. Right? Who I called General Clark in my conversation. You did. I noted it, and then I knew what you were talking about. And I was going to say something, but then like we got off and Nia said it in the council chambers chat. She had my back, but it was too far past to go back. So now a week later, I'm bringing it up, correcting yourself. You've issued the retraction. There it is. Say, go delete your comments, folks. If you left a comment, go delete it now. Retract. JMS says this. I'm looking to find a way to bring Franklin's father back into the storyline now to help resolve this. Oh, wow. Note, no suggestions, please.

[21:00] Bad stuff. He says, I think he would tend to fall on the other side and it'd be good to show that some people may think that, yes, there is a problem, but you solve that problem from within, not by breaking away. Could make for some nice drama, which I think is basically what we've all been. Like, I think Franklin's dad would be on the other side. Yeah. Following orders. Following orders. And we solve this from within, not from without. So I do that. Now, one more thing. This is the episode where General Haig meets his demise. Yeah off screen and we know the story by now right jeff we've told it we know that that robert foxworth was supposed to come back but then he got the job over on deep space nine it was the two-parter over there he had some more money and they just chose to go over there which you can understand why makes sense i don't know where we heard it i would like to now read it right out of the lips of well the fingers of jms's keyboard regarding foxworth and haig jms says he created him way back when, way back when, way back in that episode a long time ago.

[22:01] Specifically to put him in this episode oh put him back there just so he could have him here checkoffs general he was booked for a long time to do this episode but according to his agent they had mistakenly double booked with deep space nine there's no word on when the other booking actually came in however even though he had been booked first they did decide to go with deep space nine since it was more money and it was a two-parter jms does go on to acknowledge i'll admit that it It is really hard to hold an actor hostage to just a couple of episodes per year. Sag doesn't really allow for it. And even if you were to try to do it, you're just going to have an, uh, an unhappy actor hanging around your set. So you just, you just don't, you don't do that, you know, just to keep them on the line as far as that kind of stuff goes. So everything else I have, Jeff is going to be contained to the episode. So let's get there into the breach. We go, we're going to pull the episode up right now. This is what happens from this point. We pull it up, we watch it. If you are joining us on YouTube, you're going to see the cut up edited reaction style video.

[23:05] If you want to see the unedited thing with us staring at the screen for a long time because we're going to be transfixed by the just incredibleness on the screen, you can get that at our Patreon page. It's patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, you are going to hear audio of the YouTube video and us talking because that's where the good stuff happens and we don't want you guys left out. Don't worry. We're still going to be on the other side. We'll still have all our post episode discussions, the messages, our rankings, all that sort of fun stuff as we really pick apart this episode for the first time for the second time. So, Jeff, with that, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. ever since the earth has put nouns on their security force everything here has gone to hell they're not very efficient turn around you have to keep an eye on them he's right behind me as an, Is this Talon? No.

[24:07] Narn number three. I would love for his little light to go. I know who you are, Master. But the computer you see does not. And verification is required prior to entry. Perhaps I have entered the data incorrectly. We are, after all, very inefficient. Yes, one must keep an eye on us. Good for him. Now you listen to me. In a moment. Meanwhile, we have many others coming through. please step aside. This shouldn't take more than, oh, two or three standard hours. At least they're standard hours. Madness. Total and complete madness. Never would have happened if the humans hadn't started fighting with one another. Kind of your fault, dude. Did you know that they did all these things on Amiga computers? That whole bank of them. We can't outrun them in normal space. If you won't jump, then you've got to let me open fire with the AF batteries. I don't want to kill any more of our own ships. We have no choice. Forward interceptors on the Clarkstown are down. We can punch through the hall. Tell the F batteries to open fire. It was like two weeks ago, messages from Earth, I think you talked about, JMS talked about how in order for Earth Force to fire on Earth Force, there has to be no other option whatsoever. And I think we just saw that play out right on Bruce McGill's face. Just like, oh God.

[25:15] Clarkstown destroyed major reloading fighters as fast as we can as soon as they're aboard make the jump to hyperspace i love that dejection in his voice did you ever meet the captain of the clarkstown no sir he and the general were at the academy together he has a wife back home three small children an abyssinian cat named max that's what makes this war different from anything we've ever gone through before this time we know everyone we kill we talk extensively on this show about when you know a person, it's difficult to hate a person. It's easy to hate them, right? And what I love about, I forget his name, Major whatever, Major Bruce McGill, we'll get his name here in a minute. But what I love is he hasn't lost that sight.

[25:57] It's still the person, right? He hates the thing that is happening that still mourns the person. I'm kind of struck by the opening thing with Londo and the Narn. I don't know how to feel about it, but I feel like, I mean, they took disgusting gross abject racism and made it a joke but i feel like it might be okay because like the butt of the joke was the racist so it's okay because humor is a gateway to allowing ourselves to hear a message and receive it agree you know what i mean that's so much that's actually what makes it okay is because it's couched as humor we can now actually have a conversation about it And, and we can hear it and we can see it and all of that. So while I understand what you're saying, as far as like the reality of it is really gross and is just, it's, it's objectively awful. It's the same thing we do in standup comedy. Yeah. We're going to bring stuff up. We're going to couch it as a joke, but it's there as truth as well. You know, and, and the ones that the jokes that people get most pissed at are the ones that are true and hit that, you know, otherwise it's just not funny and nobody cares. Bad news, people. I just received a narrowband transmission from the Alexander. That's General Hague ship.

[27:09] They suffered heavy damage and they need a place to make repairs. The second they get here, shut everything down. Just leave us a private channel in case we need it. And the ISN feed. It's our only lifeline to home. We need to know what's happening. That's about to go down. We'd end up in the middle of this sooner or later. How far this goes, we'll just have to see. All I know right now is that Haig is arriving here in a few hours and hell is riding in with him. That's a cool line. Yeah. That's a really cool line, right? Right like he's arriving in a few hours and hell is writing in with him that's one of those lines jms is either a he's used it before maybe yeah or he's had it in his back pocket for a long time just waiting for a spot to pull it out yeah and bruce box lightener just delivers it we can't allow anyone else to see him we believe several bounty hunters are already here looking for him we must slip him into the station i love jakar in this scene he spent the last six months among the league worlds gathering information and the nars at all of the customs areas how do we know, I've just been hanging out here behind the crates the whole time.

[28:12] You know, neither Jakar nor Andreas are small people. Hiding out like that is not an easy task. Watch the spring in his step. I will carry this person happily because I am a servant. Xavier Montoya, head of the Mars Provisional Government, announced today that he will not implement the martial law order given five days ago by President Clark. That doesn't sound familiar at all. No. And local municipalities saying, I'm not going to implement this thing issued by a federal government. And then the federal government is considering all options. I haven't heard that in the last couple days or anything. Jump gate activated. We've got a ship coming through. May I have your attention?

[28:55] That's an interesting, uh, that's the Alexander note, the camera work here, Jeff, interesting camera work. Obviously you're getting the viewpoint of each person. That's, that's, you know, either actively talking or listening, but still it's a relatively standard CNC camera angle, but captain, the commander and I are aware of standing orders concerning the Alexander, but this like looking up at him, we take full personal responsibility. If anyone has a problem with this, you're free to leave the command deck. I remember my first watch of this. We have just been thrust into the middle of extraordinary events. Did somebody not leave? He does this again. Okay. I want to make sure I'm in the right spot. Us approach this calmly and rationally. Those are not the enemy out there. We wear the same uniforms and we've both sworn to uphold the Constitution. Our humanity is the only thing that's going to get us out again. That's a real theme we've been hitting here for a little bit now. We have one chance. Mars has rejected martial law. If they can stand up to Clark, they might be able to rally support from some of the other colony worlds and push him out of power. Unless he pushes back. I just can't believe so many people in Earth Force would go along with all this. He spent the last year putting his people in key places. Anyone who raises a voice is immediately arrested and charged with treason. Under conditions like that, it's easier to... Haven't heard any of that at all. It's done. We just intercepted a coded message from Earth Force Command. They've started bombing Mars. I repeat, they're bombing Mars.

[30:16] Standing by there's a juxtaposition here i'm just gonna it's your word man but i'm gonna use it last week i'm gonna use it this way you're taking it oh i love it every time you say it i love it you're like yeah there's a juxtaposition between major ryan that we saw in the cold open where he's just like you know did you ever meet the ceo like oh my gosh he's this person this thing happened compared to this where the clark regime is like bomb them them right like it's not we don't see it outright but we see the action of it right here yeah don't do it we've got women and children down here don't do it omega-1 you are cleared for drop i'm sorry um once again federal people going after places where women and children are living and existing and whatever just because it's pretty disgusting.

[31:09] And we've been unable to determine at this time how many have been killed in the recent attacks on Mars by EarthGov forces. President Clark has announced that the attacks will continue until the Mars Provisional Government accedes to martial law. So far there's been no reaction from any of the outer colonies considering- There it is, here it is. I'm sorry to jump in like this, but this guy can't cost ISN everything. Colonies at Orion 7, Proxima 3 have just broken away from the Earth Alliance in protest over the bombing of Mars. Setting themselves up as independent states until such time as President Clark is impeached. Right.

[31:41] Clark doesn't want this. Rick, I need this job. But we have to go with this now because I don't know how much longer we can stay on the air. Armed troops have begun moving in on the ISN broadcast center. The dude last week who left the Nightwatch was the hero who wins the war in the end of season four. So is this guy. Guy last week did it quietly. This guy's using his microphone, using his platform. What do we make of the reporter, the female reporter, saying, please don't do this, please? Oh, I get it. Because here's the thing. It's not the right thing to do. I'm not excusing it, but I can completely understand where she's coming from. The world is falling down around you. But you know what you still got to do? Buy groceries. Pay the utilities. pay the rent, the mortgage. This is her job. It's her livelihood. And they're hearing stories and reporting on them that people are being arrested and charged with treason. She's like, dude, don't do this. We'll all go to prison. We'll lose our jobs. And on one hand, that's cowardly on one hand. But on the other hand, it totally makes sense. I talked about it last week. I'll talk about it here. To be that hero.

[32:43] The hero who left Nightwatch, the hero who's given it away, that's courage. That is a high level of courage that it takes. Here in geneva we just saw them coming around the corner yeah and to ben's point doesn't want them to get killed i was gonna say let me let me also clarify she is legit scared yeah you can see in how she says it you can see in everything they're doing please don't do this please don't do this because of what this means while yes it is peak courage of the other guy to go in and do this i don't think that that says that she is a coward or that she is it doesn't it doesn't reflect negatively upon her. She can have her response for what it is. It's a great clarification because I use the word, she's not a coward. She's a regular person. Like, it's not coward or courage. It's like courage. Yeah. Camera down there to document what's going on i can hear gunfire now up here on the 14th floor listen to me there's information you don't have what's been going on for the last year we haven't been allowed to tell you.

[33:48] I like that even though their feed got cut they still have the logo we intercepted attack orders relayed to the agrippa and the roanoke they're hooking up with some heavy reinforcements on the way in. We better pull out before we do it. So one more note. Sorry, I hate to keep pausing this, but one more note. JMS notes that these big ships, prior to Clark being in office, they all used Greek names, names from Greek mythology. Since Clark has been there, he's using more modern, by their standards, modern, actually really even by our standards, the Roanoke. Kind of a cool colony. It was lost. That's true, but still some cool stuff. the church hill as some others uh so he changed the names or are these new commissions um yeah my impression was these are new commissions that he's giving he's just changing the naming scheme, um but it could be old ones that he's changing the name to i don't know you know could be the gulf of yeah earth alliance is babylon five further major the ships i can actually support we're already on their way here he doesn't want to risk babylon five breaking away so those ships are under orders to seize command of Babylon 5, arrest and detain its captain and the rest of the command staff, and to put this station under the direct authority of President Clark and the Night Watch. Oh, look at that. That's a great shot. Yeah. They won't intervene. All the major...

[35:12] It's muffled behind him now, like blood just pumping. But I thought you should know. I better get back to my ship. I should be there when the others arrive. If you think it would be any help, we could try to jump, maybe draw some of the fire away from Babylon 5, give you a chance to negotiate. No. Thank you, Major. If this is where we make our stand, then this is where we'll do it. Seeing some real leadership here. This is incredible. I love the light going underneath the table there. I know we're all hoping to avoid a head-on confrontation with Earth, that somehow we could stop this train before it went off track. But this train is heading right for us and there is not a lot of time. Never surrender. Never retreat. If it was just us, hey, it pays you money, it takes you chances. But it's not just us. There's a quarter million people here and billions more out there counting on us. I promised Delenn that we would draw a line against the darkness no matter the cost. Now we know the cost. I like how he tied that to Delenn. There's too much at stake to walk away now. If we surrender, they'll court-martial us. If we fight and lose, they'll probably kill us. They probably will at that.

[36:15] So the choice is yours. I say fight. Fight. Fight. Fight. All right. Let's see. This is monstrous, all those ships. Probably try to breach the hull, so we'll need every warm body we've got working security. I told you, Delenn, they will not speak to you. Then they will listen to me. You will step aside in his name and mine, or in Balin's name. I will tear this ship apart with my bare hands until I find them. Move aside. You know what I love so much about that? In his name and in mine.

[36:56] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We stand between the candle and the star, between the darkness and the light. You say the word. Dude, she's about to cry. Your hearts are empty. Your ears close to the truth. You stand for nothing but your own petty interests. Dylan in our council chambers is saying Mira is acting this as if she's saying it to her own country's leaders. And not our concern. You feel it. I do not blame you for standing silent in your shame. You who knew what was coming but refused to take up the burden of this war. If the warrior caste will not fight, then the rest of us will. Interesting note, Jeff.

[37:35] If the warrior caste will not fight, then the rest of us will. Part of Valen's covenant to prevent one caste from taking over the other is that each caste has access to its own warships. This is done to create a trust of a thousand years ago. And since then, since there hasn't been any really conflict between the Minbari, the three cast own their own warships still. But in general, they're assigned to the warrior caste as a courtesy. But that courtesy can be revoked. As Dillon notes, the worker and religious caste control two-thirds of the forces of the Mimbari forces. Even, and bear in mind, even the religious caste is well-trained in combat. It's part of their education at the temple, as we've seen with Lanier and his ability to fight. So if you won't do it, we will. They actually, it's not just we need you to go do that. It's we have our own ships that we can take back from you to go do this. That answers a question we had on our first time watch around the White Star. Because we're like, how's the religious caste out here building warships like this? It happens. Right, right.

[38:41] Also, you mentioned earlier that we had a question about how is it that Lynn can walk in and do this? Yeah. She answered it for us right as she went in. I was chosen by Dukat to replace him.

[38:55] She had her own spot on the council. She was chosen by Dukat to be that leader person. And remember, they tried to push her into that and she, she stepped back. So the idea that she has the authority to walk in, in Dukat's name and in Valen's name and in her own name and lay this down, she still is carrying that authority. And the fact that they even give her audience is showing that she does still, in fact, have that authority despite rejecting Valen. The leadership mantle that, that they tried to force upon her, what, at the beginning of season two. It makes me curious. Like, is it the respect for Dukat? Is it the respect for that station that, you know, that carries from Valen all the way through? I can't, I can't believe it's their respect for the name of Delenn. Like these people won't give her the time of day if they have the choice, but when she invokes Dukat, she invokes Valen. That probably, that's what, that's how I'm kind of hearing that. Yeah. But you know, here's the thing. And I think this goes to prove another point, part of the reason why they don't give to Lynn the time of day is because she abdicates, right? Okay. Like when leadership was offered to her, she abdicates. It's like, nope, I'm going to go do this other thing. Okay. Well, you don't have it. But when she comes in here and she starts talking like this and she actually is taking up the mantle with which she has been entrusted with, not just by the great council, but by Dukat and ultimately by Valen, right?

[40:19] They're going to listen you know it's it's it's like a king who abdicates his throne and then it's simba the lion king yeah when he finally comes back and and steps into that spot people are like okay now we can do this you know so but prior to him doing that yeah yeah i have two thoughts on this scene or pause one this is the second delen that we're seeing this is religiously passionate righteous delen The one tied to tradition, to history, to her beliefs, her core self. Like this is raw Delenn just coming out. So we had caring Delenn, raw Delenn, and we're going to see a third one. Second thing, this is a one, this is a one, like they haven't broken. She's been doing this as a one shot. I haven't even noticed that. Oh, that's very cool. Yeah. Dude, she can memorize that thing. I do want to just say to the folks, save your comments. Misty over in our council chambers, who's live with us. Points out that the leadership role she turned down was in Babylon Squared, not at the beginning of season two. Thank you for correcting me, Misty. Babylon 5 for the third time is just going to be us as Silhouettes MS3K style with no pausing. That'd be us making fun of the show. That, Jeff, I'm not advocating for Babylon 5 for the third time. No. However. That'd be the way to do it. No, individual episodes. Oh, we could pick some. Like that would be a whole lot of fun. Because you know what the community loves? Us. Us making fun of the show.

[41:47] No, no, no. We do it to Star Trek. There you go. There you go.

[41:55] All right. Back to it. I'm sorry. If we have abandoned our covenant with Valen, then the council should be broken.

[42:07] As was prophesied. That was the first cut, I think. Dude, she didn't need to, like, pump that over her knee or anything. She just...

[42:17] Council chambers shared that they had... She just said it. We control two-thirds of our forces. I say listen to the voice of your conscience break the council and come with me our time of isolation is over so you know what i love she's not the one breaking the council they are you listen to your conscience break the council she could walk out of here and nobody follows her and council's still intact yeah okay this makes a lot more sense apparently the reason they had to cut is because there's a blooper of her failing to break the staff because i'll be honest she didn't look like she was they they gimmicked it for her like they oh i'm sure yeah Move now, together, but not at all.

[42:54] I love how she walks out. She doesn't even care if they're following her or not. She doesn't even stop to look. So there's three people left. And that one guy's like, what are you doing? I thought we were cool. That's the warrior cast that's left. Well, we see at least three. We don't know if there was somebody on the side that didn't. I didn't count the people who actually walked out. I think we did the first time. I did. We'll assume it was six, the one with her. Oh, here we go. This is a surprise. I just thought I'd look in on you and see how you were doing. Fine, fine. But when push comes to shove, you've always done the right thing. What was the first lesson I ever told you? Never start a fight. Always finish it. You do what you have to do, son. Don't worry about us. Now, I know you've probably got a million things to do. And he picked this as one of them. And I guess I'll talk to you when I talk to you. Talk to you when I talk to you. Goodbye, Dad.

[43:47] Love you both. Still kills me. One of the things we do on this show, Brent, is we look at the messages, right? Mm-hmm. There it sits. Yeah. Just there you go. All of it. Every single piece of that. Even the intent behind it. Yeah. The whole everything. Like, I was stirring. You know, when we watched this the first time, this probably came out in the summer of 23, I think, was when we watched this the first time. Okay. My dad had been gone dead for about a year at that point. And so it's been quite a while now. And, like, I had those feelings stirring up, you know, when he's just like, I'm going to call my dad. And I was like, oh my God, I'm feeling that. And what I didn't know at the time was I had, Right around the corner. Five months left with mine. Yeah. You know, a lot of people are saying this is JMS writing the dad that he wish he had. Somebody actually asked him if this was his dad, like in real life. And he was like, nope. That's all I'm going to say about that. It's like not even close. He's like that piece of absolute bitch would never put his hands on me like that or say a word like that to me. That's a quote, I think. And the soundtrack the music on that and then cutting right into this.

[45:03] I like seeing the darn mixed with the humans here we get the launch sequence i've always loved the launch sequence do it yeah all we got to do is just release the lock and physics takes over, All right, everyone, listen up. Commander and I have prepared a response to the unconstitutional actions taken against us and the Mars colony by President Clark. Here we go. Here we go.

[45:34] You're online. Go ahead. May I have your attention? Please tell me I referenced the gold hologram device. In the last few hours, we have learned that warships are coming this way from Earth. Their orders are to seize command of Babylon 5 by force. As commanding officer and military governor of Babylon 5, I cannot allow this to happen. President Clark has violated the Earth Alliance Constitution by dissolving the Senate, declaring martial law, and personally ordering the bombing of civilian targets on the Mars colony. As of this moment, Babylon 5 is seceding from the Earth Alliance. We will remain an independent state until President Clark is removed from office. The end of this current crisis, anyone who wishes to leave for Earth is free to do so. Meanwhile, for your own safety, I urge everyone to stay in your quarters until this is over. Literal goosebumps, I have literal goosebumps from that. My God. Well, we're in it now. Should we ask Stroll to help with the defense? No, no, he's our ace in the hole. I want to keep him a secret as long as- Which is a very long time. This is our fight. This becomes so- Mission accomplished, Sheridan. You kept him a secret all the time. Like, not his. Okay, his next line there. This is our fight, not his. Jeff, you and I have often referenced this. You and I have gone back and forth, not back and forth. You and I actually, I think, have been fairly lockstep with each other on.

[46:51] How fail is failure the right word yeah how much of a failure it was to not come back to this a wasted plot device that you have i would like to present the other side of the argument now okay from jms's own words oh you see jeff and brent the thing to bear in mind about all this is that is a question of a clean fight if sheridan were to bring in an alien force at his order to kill humans it would pretty much destroy his credibility dylan came at it came in at the end which she will hear in just a few moments, but only after he'd made the stand on his own. One of the things that kicked off the French Revolution, let's go back to history. One of the things that kicked off the French Revolution was the allegation that the king had brought in or was bringing in Prussian troops to help put down dissenters. As long as it was all more or less in the family, that was one thing, but to bring in outsiders was an absolute affront to them, the French population. One of the singular incidents that started the fighting itself was a group of prussian soldiers sighted sitting in a cafe having lunch which caused the rumor about outsiders coming in to begin to spread like wildfire and led to some of the first major incidences of rioting wow put this another way two brothers may fight one another let a third unrelated person come and shove one of the brothers around and they both turn on him so the whole point of keeping him in his back and now here's the thing you and i focused on him saying I want to keep him in my back pocket.

[48:20] What Sheridan immediately said after that was, this is our fight, is actually where our focus should have been the entire time. So I want to push a little bit back on that. Please do, because I'm sure you're thinking exactly what I'm thinking. Go for it, my friend. Better coming out of your mouth than mine. The fight that we thought that he should have used draw for was the one with the shadows, not with Earth. Yeah. Much bigger. Yeah. And I think we just saw – Delenn went in and basically called on the council to dissolve itself –.

[48:50] Not because earth is fighting itself, but because of the shadows influence into everything. Sheridan's not really in on that level of, of understanding yet, but as soon as he does, Hey, draw, uh, we could choose you over here with this literal shadow war that's happening amongst all of the, what they called lesser and younger races. So yeah, I agree. And Sheridan brings us up through season four. We, this is human earth on earth. That's what this is. A hundred percent agree. You're fighting the shadows. You pull out the big guns. Well, especially if you're getting all the first ones together. Yeah. And then when the Vorlons go nuts and stuff, yeah, you don't. Yeah. What are we going to do? Draw. You're going to draw. Although apparently the real world, the spoiler alert for when we get there, I'm sure it'll be in the lurker's guide at some point. Ben in our council chambers points out as Ben is so often a wealth of information. There actually was a plan to use draw in season four, but the actor wasn't available and JMS didn't want to recast him a second time. That would have been a non-spoiler. Yeah. I would have accepted on our first watch. Saved us so much gnashing of teeth. No, actually, he should have been there. It's just we couldn't get the actor and we didn't want to recast him yet again. And I was like, okay. Could have done it. He still could have. Hey, it's a good thing. We called on drawl and he did this thing over here in sector whatever took care of that. Still could have said.

[50:10] Or, hey, yeah, we're going to call on drawl. Drawl's off doing something else. You know what? Ivanova's been plugged in once. Let's send her and let her do it. and have Zathrys help out. There were options. There are ways to do it. There are ways to do it. However, I still would have accepted Oh, we're getting torn up over here in the comments. That's okay. Let's get back into this episode. That's in the future. Let's get back to this. Could have used Zathrys. Tencho wasn't available. All right. Anyone who wants to leave, do so now. Oh, this is the scene I was thinking of earlier. Watch Ivanova. I love this. You okay? I think so. It's kind of a surprise, but yeah. Yeah, everyone who checked me out, Ivanova, and said I wasn't good for this. Request permission to join Star Fury. Book it man now. Yeah. So here's the thing. I remember my first watch. Captain, you're asking those pilots to go against everything they've been trained for in open fire on our own ships. And one of us should be out there with them. One of us has to be. You know I'm right. He does. He knows.

[51:01] This could be it and they both know it you know what i love is in any other relationship that would have been the lover's goodbye there was none of that here that was just two working professionals who are also friends are you saying that a man and a woman can just be friends and work together they don't have to be shipped or can be working together and become friends and can be boss and subordinate and still have platonic feelings for each other's well-being. Yeah. Yeah. That's attention, sci-fi, anime, manga, community, fantasy communities. It's okay for a man and woman to just be like coworkers and friends. Let's listen. Let's not just say it that way. It's okay for a woman and woman to be coworkers and friends. It's okay for a man and a man to be coworkers. It's okay for an alien and a human or two aliens. It's, it's okay. For two individuals to just be friends and be coworkers. Over in the chat, I'm not going to throw her into the bus. But she says, as a woman, she's only ever thought of us sexually. We're just shipping. We're shipping material now. Oh, my God. The slash fiction. What did I do? Oh, Jeffrey. We have pictures.

[52:20] We do. Oh, no. Oh, that could go so many weird places. That could go so many weird places. Do we have children? We can't. Council Chambers, ask us about that later. Another time. Ask us about that later. Okay. Back. Major Ryan, Captain Hiroshi. Right here, Captain. Online. Standby. Sheridan literally just did this as a I declare bankruptcy. Like, there's no notes. There's no whatevers. There's no. I declare secession. right they're all still staring at okay so this push in right here this got me oh thinking he was gonna like that look right there to i read so much into that on the first watch yep i remember that and i was like oh he's oh he said he was okay but he's not oh which i loved the idea that you had somebody within the organization that was not okay with this who didn't leave but was still not okay and thought maybe they could fix this from the inside, so to speak. Here they come.

[53:25] You are ordered to surrender your commands and prepare to be boarded. Yeah, that's good. These orders have forced us to declare independence in order to ensure the safety of this station. We don't want a fight. If you attempt to carry out these orders, we will defend ourselves. Totally reasonable. Come on, Captain. You must see these orders are wrong. They broke in contact. Enemy Starfury is moving on attack vector. Orders. Babylon, control to all Starfury squadrons. Stand by to attack, but do not repeat. Do not initiate combat. You imagine what he's feeling right now. I'll just start this fight, but by God, we'll finish it. There you go. Yeah. Say it. We'll be here. We'll show force. Wait, I'm sorry, Jeff. You mean that it actually is okay to bring weaponry to, I don't know, say a protest? I think so. Even if it is one that is peaceful because you might just have to defend yourself in case some stuff goes down.

[54:23] Enemy fighters have locked on. Firing. There it is. Again, I say, Clark could not do any of this without people that are complicit. Alpha Squadron, form up on my wing. Delta Squadron, punch us a hole in there. Also, who fired first? They did. Yep. Mm-hmm. But the Babylon 5 folks were the domestic carriers. We set forward interceptors for long-range dispersion fire. Ready. Yeah, that's where he would betray, right there. Ready. Shields down. Power off.

[54:56] I don't know.

[55:00] As a sci-fi franchise, Babylon 5 is leveling up right now with this whole sequence. I will say, though, Bruce McGill is not a small dude. That chair looks entirely too big for him.

[55:17] So JMS clarifies, this is not the scene that we saw in the flash forward from Babylon Square. Okay. Yeah, he doesn't have a Gatling laser. Yeah those ppgs yeah so on the reason why there's no blood happening ppgs are superheated plasma immediately cauterized wounds no blood that's nice for filmmaking when you don't have to worry about throwing blood around right ppgs and lightsabers too late to get out our primary systems are hit we've got fire in those acts now yeah some of those smaller episodes earlier oh my, Some of those smaller episodes earlier in the season, saving money for.

[56:04] I remember the first time I watched this, I couldn't, I didn't know if she was able to eject or not. So apparently somewhere in this scene here, Jerry Doyle breaks his arm. Rather than going to the hospital, the man stuck it out and kept filming. And if you watch, I think it's his right arm. He's going to reach up and release his helmet and his arm's going to bend in directions God never intended. Your ship is out of control. Surrender it. Let us take on prisoners. We promise safe passage.

[56:35] Damage report damage to all sectors they're still fighting in brown sector get some more troops down there hull integrity not good eva team's en route it's a good thing that stopped when it did we couldn't take much more here comes more you are ordered to surrender and prepare to be boarded by order of president clark captain jump points forming right on top of us how many, Four. On your left. Yep. He doesn't know that yet. Oh, my gosh. This is... Look, I'm telling you, the Russo brothers stole their endgame concept from this episode right here. Look at her. Let's go to Lynn. Let's go. This is Ambassador Dillon of the Minbari. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdrawal. Withdrawal. Be destroyed. Negative. We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship. Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your life, be something else. God, that's so good. Yeah! Yeah! They're like, yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. We are gone. We're gone.

[57:45] Deuces that's the third delin there's no spirituality there's no values there's no like inner thing that's just i am the biggest badass you have ever faced and will ever see you know what makes me so sad jeff is knowing that's the last we see of this i mean we get the stuff the thing where she where she saves the bimbari civil war later in season four like we get that one but that's not even as strong as this one right here i mean this is this is this is mira furland's peak dylan moment right here you talked about freaking awesome so good you talked about how like she went to jms and was like hey how long do you live in yugoslavia i wonder what catharsis this had for her like because she is it is all getting worked out in this and i would and i would dare say you know brilliance and kudos to jms for writing this the way he did allow it you know and he said it was completely unintentional on his part so cool but for for mira to come in and be able to use her real life experience which i dare say leveled this whole thing up yeah she does not feel like she's acting here i don't know how many times she had to do this as a take i bet it wasn't much probably not that it wasn't much all ships return.

[59:05] And it makes sense that minbari came it's not him engaging them to fight there was no engagement but also babylon 5 is now independent and the minbari are saying it's under their protection i think it makes total sense there is uh there was a quote somewhere or did we say this we said this in uh the messages portion of the first time this scene right here total flashback to gropos right and what was interesting in gropos compared to this or was interesting this compared to gropos is this that was all humans this is human and narn lying on the ground bleeding and broken together but here's the thing of the humans anyway you can't tell which one was on which side exactly i mean i guess if you look the ones in green are from the earth side and the ones in black would be from babylon five maybe yeah because they sent more troops they could have not been in battle gear or whatever but yeah it was just it was just a real visual representation that we're all together in this suzanne i i'm going to completely reject what suzanne just said here in our council chamber suzanne said earthdome was probably instructed do not engage them in barry i reject that because they just turn tail and run based off of what mira ferland just said i'm sorry what delen just said that's the only reason that's the only plausible reason the idea that they were told not to engage them in barry is just because the the commanders were monitoring the transmission back home and they pooped their pants and said get the f out that's what's going on here it's nothing else Suzanne sorry rejected.

[1:00:33] They got into hyperspace and they're like oh so um.

[1:00:36] There was a big bomb and we just I.

[1:00:39] Don't know what it was we discretion better part of valor we're not running.

[1:00:43] Away it's fine I love you Suzanne all right I'm watching for Joe Doyle taking off his helmet and his arm that's going in weird directions oh this part right here yeah his right arm so that's that one.

[1:01:03] I didn't see it going any weird directions but that's okay deborah in the chat makes a great point that i want to build on a little bit earth dome also has the hubris of knowing the shadows are helping them remember in and now for a word when that senator was like yeah minbari made short work of us 10 years ago but uh we're pretty sure with our new weaponry we could stand up to them, how much that new weaponry has shadow influenced interesting we know that comes down the road with the omega class i think the new omega class destroyers but your people perform superbly captain you should be proud i am proud of what we did but not the reason we had to do it good luck to you major i don't know how long we can hold the fort here but as long as we can you're welcome here thank you the lack of soundtrack in this scene i think is very powerful there's chatter going on in the council chambers chat it's really like hey this was incredible dylan was awesome but we're reminded that people died and that even when you win the battle win the war the cost is always too high but what i love in this scene is all this stuff just happened it was big Like it was incredible. It was loud. It was all this stuff. And it comes down to two people getting their brooms out and figuring out how do we clean up this mess and continue to move forward. There's no fanfare in that. And those people's names are Mac and Bo. No, sorry. Exactly right.

[1:02:18] Who always gets stuck picking up the pieces? I think you're forgetting something. The lowest paid.

[1:02:23] No, I'm not. After what happened today, I don't think I can wear that for a while. Not with a clear conscience. When this is all over, I'll put it on again, but not before. He'll put it on exactly one more time. Mm-hmm. I didn't expect to see you here. About a year in the day. Notice his hand is in his pocket. He's still checking out Ivanova, but she'll be out soon. I figured I better be here to let you know. We started shipping people out. The ones we want to go and the ones we're getting rid of. Nightwatch mainly. we got all the ones we know about but that leaves all the ones we don't that's an important concept we got all the ones we know about but that all leaves all the ones we don't well we i think it's next week we actually get a glimpse of that do we yeah where we get because i was i was just about to say i don't think we ever dealt with the ones that we don't we get scar mouth noise guy coming up oh leg bones connected to the yeah that's what okay okay all right all right i'm proud boys got it sabotaged for a while almost certainly god if they just embraced like right now it would be so earned but they don't and i love it thank you seems poor and inadequate i don't know how much this cost you personally and i suspect i never will but i want you to know that seeing your face at that moment was probably the single finest moment in my life it seems that this is the only home we have left how could I abandon as you say I bought my partner.

[1:03:49] Put her there partner oh fortune favors the bold maybe oh there you are so how is she duck well we have a stubborn patient multiple bruises and a fractured rib and a bump on the back of the head I'm fine I just thought there's something you should see, I love the slow clap. Yeah, right. Just to remind you, it's an 80s ski feud movie.

[1:04:22] Aw, he puts his arm around her. JMS specifically said to look for that poster. The rip in the poster? Yeah. All right, Brent, we did it. We've closed out the trilogy. Stop. It's done. Stop. I need a moment to breathe. You know what, though? Yes. And I think the episode actually gave us that at the end. Like, this was such a well-paced episode that I agree with your statement from the first time. This felt like a 15, 20-minute episode. It was breakneck. It was huge. It was stuffed. And it breathed at the end. Like, that moment, I think it's when Delenn shows up and it just kind of slows down for a second, you know? And it's like, oh. Well, I mean, okay, let's, we know JMS has written the entirety of Babylon five, like a five act play. You have, what do you have? You have, you have, you have introduction, you have rising action, you have climax, you have falling action. You have denouement. We got a climax with Dylan. We got falling action coming after that with, with no, some of the other stuff. And then this bit at the end, we had a denouement. Like you, we were given that space before the story ended. We didn't just finish with they turn tail and run. Yeah. You know? It's not an episode of Stargate that's like, end of show. Yeah. Because that happens a lot in Stargate. Yeah. This was, I mean, this was perfect, Brent. It was perfect.

[1:05:49] Yeah. Perfect. I'm at a loss, if I'm really honest. Like... It kind of speaks for itself. Yeah. I think we said, as far as messages go, we just, we'll skip there. We've said everything else. As far as messages go, you and I said everything last week, frankly. Agreed. Because this, this just, it was more of that. It pushed that forward. Before we transition to the ranking, while you and I have anything else to say about messages, the great maker himself does. One of my favorite things ever. In fact, he had quite a bit to say on messages. I can't imagine him having messages in something like this. Somebody asked about the themes that are present in the show, specifically the themes of self-sacrifice.

[1:06:39] To which JMS says this, you picked up exactly the themes that are present in the show with some more that are going to come shortly. Personal sacrifice for a cause, perhaps a good cause, perhaps not, depending on how wisely we make our decisions is probably the dominant theme at this point in the story.

[1:07:01] It's worth mentioning that this story was initially conceived in the midst of the me generation, a decade of I've got mine, Jack, screw off. Since then, the culture has gotten increasingly factionalized, groups of me's pulling and tugging at the fabric of not only the country, but of the planet itself. The idea of personal sacrifice, of personal service to a cause, seems to have become passe, old-fashioned and silly. We have an obligation to one another, responsibilities and trusts. That does not mean we must be pigeons, that we must be exploited. But it does mean that we should look out for one another when and as much as we can. And that we have a personal responsibility for our behavior and that our behavior has consequences of a very real and profound nature. We are not powerless. We have tremendous potential for good or ill. How we choose to use that power is up to us. But first, we must choose to use it. We are told every day you can change the world, but the world is changing every day. The only question is who's doing it, you or someone else? Will you choose to lead or be led by others?

[1:08:27] Wow. You know, Jeff, I think you and I often wax philosophical on this show, and I think we actually often have some fairly insightful things to say. Sometimes, yeah. JMS, it seems, rarely dives into the messages with which he puts out. But when he does, he dives, pay attention because he is always on point with what he says. Man's got a way with words. What can I say that he does? My question at this point though, Brenna's, do you have a way with numbers? Cause you're going to have to put a number in front of this episode as you play severed dreams in the official ranking, the objectively correct ranking season three. I'm not going to insult people and name any of them. Where does this go?

[1:09:13] Well, there is, there is, it is worthy of the discussion. Oh, is it? Okay. Yes. I'll humor you. Yeah. Well, because there's messages from earth, the point of no return, and then there's severed dreams. It's one of those three. It's those three. Now you and I often say you can take a bunch of episodes, put them in a bag, shake them up, pull them out and you're going to get them in the right order. It doesn't really matter. Sometimes. Yeah. I don't know that that's the case here. I don't think so either.

[1:09:35] Just to officially say it and not just sort of pass it off. Is this episode from a production standpoint from a messages standpoint from a storytelling standpoint from a fan standpoint better than messages from earth yes yes it is is this episode from all of those exact same points better than point of no return let me go ahead and just hit rewind really quick this is perfect perfect that's what i said a minute ago so yes it is i'll take that as a yes yes this then it becomes our new number one and probably ought to stay there for the remainder of the season in our first time ranking watching it for the first time brent.

[1:10:18] This was number three right it was number three yeah and i know why and i know why and we were wrong maybe and we'll get there again we'll we'll get there again but this look look i war without in as a great set of episodes yeah it is it's it's a phenomenal set of episodes it is it is great for the story it is great for the lore it is great for the fiction it is great for the good feeling of it closes out sinclair's storyline in a way that we never actually thought that we would have the opportunity to do to see right but on a whole critically speaking it's not better than this oh we'll see and i don't i i don't remember if we put those in as one and two separately, or if we put them as one and two and then there's another one that's number two. I don't remember. Yeah, so it's WWE one and two and number two was Zaha Doom. There's the fly in the ointment. We got to see how that plays out. I'm not placing bets in any way right now, but I'm going to say there's going to be, That's going to be the contention right there. Do we have our own little Muay Thai over here? Right. Exactly.

[1:11:22] Exactly. Well, that's a teaser for 11 episodes from now. When we'll find out. We got 11 episodes to build to it, Jeff. Yep, exactly. Exactly. It's the showdown of the season. But this one, Bren, is done. We finished the trilogy. The argument is this might be a quadrilogy. And so we'll watch the next one and maybe ask that question as we watch it. It's the episode called Ceremonies of Light and Dark. First time around, we made predictions of what these episodes were going to be about based on title alone. What, Brent, did you predict?

[1:11:57] This episode is going to be about. All right. Listen, I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this once and I'll probably have to repeat it next week, but that's okay. Sure. This next episode turns this into a little bit of a quadrilogy, but only in the way that family turns the best of both worlds into a trilogy. It doesn't really, it's an addendum. It's a good part. It's a part of the story. It's the next thing that happens. It's good. It is not in the same plane. It's just not. All right. That being said, I'm going to take myself back to a time where I hadn't seen these episodes yet. And I didn't know, and I'm hearing this for the very first time. And what I'm thinking this might be, it's all the post-battle ceremonies, the funerals. Sheridan's going to become president, maybe. Delenn, Sheridan, maybe get married, maybe. We're cleaning up from the immediate fallout. That's what it's going to be. And yeah, we'll talk about that this week. What did you say? What did you say was going to be, Jeff? I said this is going to focus on Delenn. The four that did not walk away from the council will invoke a right against those who did walk away from the council. That will eventually lead to the warrior caste teaming up and allying themselves with the shadows. Wow.

[1:13:07] I really bought into that theory of yours. Wow. You are so off base. Hey, it was Delenn. There's a lot of... Listen, you – in order to be redeemed from such a gaffe like that, you would have to pull something so far out of left field that nobody could see coming unless you've actually seen the show before. Right. Like –.

[1:13:27] Anna coming back or Sinclair or any of those things. No, no Sinclair. No, we had Sinclair being Valen nailed. Yeah, that was, we, we had that one crystal clear. Yeah. Yeah. That one was, if you're just watching the show, you can pick that up. Yeah. Kind of. What's that thing? Maybe it may not had it exactly as it wound up being, but when the writing's so good, you can guess what the next line is. Sometimes you can guess what the next story beat is going to be. Yes. so brent severed dreams done next week ceremonies of light and dark make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening or watching so you don't miss that or any other content that we're putting out across all of the places that there is content make sure you've left a rating left a review all that kind of cool stuff one of the great places that we leave share a lot of content is our patreon page patreon.com slash bad nerds in this episode specifically we've really engaged a lot with our council chambers, that's a tier on our Patreon. They get invited to our recordings live and very clearly often become a part of the show and recording. You too can join this incredible group of people by visiting our Patreon. If you're not in a position to do that right now, which makes complete sense and is totally fine, and you still want to help us out in some way, you can do so by sharing this show. Just share it with somebody who loves Babylon 5 or needs to fall in love with it, just like we have. So until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yes, Brent, what's going on?

[1:14:56] Dude, I got to tell you, this week has been, I know we often do these like little kitschy things here at the end, but I just got to say one more time, you know what the best, the absolute best part of this whole episode is, it's the Star Fury launch sequence. I mean, when it just goes and it drops and they, all they do is release the locks and the rotation of the ship. We listen, but we said that next week might be a quadrilogy, but it might already have been a quadrilogy. There was this episode a couple weeks ago voices of authority you owe us a story about the word the name Chicky, I can't do that right now man not after this not after this listen let's catch me next week I promise next week next week next week we will do it next week I can't I'm not gonna follow this up with a story about Chicky are you out of your cotton picking mind maybe I just want to hear I know everybody else does too so next week Chicky, I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.