Ship Of Tears | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Then we watched this incredible show, Babylon 5, for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching it for the second time, catching all the stuff we wouldn't have caught the first time around because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the second time, is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. That's right. But you know what we are doing for the second time, just like we did for the first time?

[1:26] We are searching out those sci-fi messages that we find in the series. You know, those things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future. It just shows how to be better human beings to one another. That being said, folks out there, Please, if you are under the sound of my voice, heed my warning. Jeff and I have seen this entire show beginning to end once. This is our second time through, which means from this point forward, anything from any point in the timeline, from anywhere in the franchise, extra canonical or not, is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if you have never seen this show for the first time, do yourself a favor. Do us a favor. Stop. Join us for our first watch. just scroll back up in the feed it'll be right there get through the show for the first time yourself without being spoiled and then join us up here for the second time because as jeff said you'll be able to watch her for the first time twice so consider this your one and only spoiler warning ye have been warned dive right into talking about the episode and probably sharing some spoilers today brent we're watching the episode ship of tears do you remember what you predicted for this one.

[2:37] I do. I do. I said that this is a Minbari ship, the ship of tears. It's kind of like a widow maker type ship. It's, it's not going to be a good thing. It's not going to be a good thing. Bad, bad, bad stuff's about to happen. How about you, Jeff? I do, and I just realized the mistake you made. Uh-oh. Just the same one I just made. Oh, well, it wasn't just me. All right. I do. I thought this was going to pick up with the Babylon Treaty with the non-aligned worlds, refugees pouring in from various worlds. Drazi's ship is going to have a group of down-and-out citizens, poets, women, and children. The captain will start negotiating for peace with them. It's going to be like this ship of sad stories and tears coming in. But what do you say, Brent? What's that? Instead of just talking about our awful predictions for this one, why don't we go back and revisit some of the things we said on our first time watch? You mean like with a special cool video?

[3:35] Absolutely. Let's do it. Listen, I'm excited to hear this. Okay, so real quick for our audio listeners, what's about to happen is Jeff and I are going to actually watch a recap video, kind of similar to what we had last week. And Jeff and I are here, we're probably going to talk over it a little bit or something like that. It's possible you may have a hard time distinguishing between Jeff and I speaking right now in the present and Jeff and I speaking way back in the past. We'll do our best to discern that, but let's see what happens here, Jeff. Here we go. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not. Bester's been in the right this whole time. Now he's been a jerk about it and he's done evil things.

[4:20] I'm going to push back on you. Okay. I don't think Bester's going to be good. Yeah, I still push back on you. I think Bester's coming over to the good side. Look at the difference. But he is not going to be a good guy. He's on the good side, but he's on the good side for his own selfish, narcissistic reasons. Which makes him a bad guy. Yeah, right. But I think that is the complexity that Babylon 5 is. You love to hate the guy. He clearly believes he's of a superior race. He's also filthy about it. So speaking of Ivanova taking it to someone, she slapped Bester so hard she drew blood.

[4:53] Seriously. Seriously. I'm willing to move forward with the idea that Bester is on the team until we get clarification that he's not. That's fair. Suddenly and magically it's a revelation that it's the telepaths even though it's actually okay stop jeff and brent real time here okay jeff this is where it came from because you and i we held on from this episode we held on to this idea that bester was part of the team that's right yep now a remote part of the team not like a part of the core team but it was one of those like enemy of my enemy type situations yep exactly we know that that is not at all what this becomes now Not even a little bit, not even close, but this is where it came from. And I still maintain that what happens at the end of this episode is a natural suggestion of tentative alliance. That's what I remember. We'll see what we think this time around. You've been right in front of at least Shakar and probably Delenn and definitely Kosh, this was a shining moment.

[5:59] For Dylan like it was amazing it was touching also she's still playing the game right like it was a very complicated scene she did the right thing yeah uh-huh you know and like even Jakar recognized that he's like and I still would have killed you, where you stand for that she's like yeah i know please don't do that right now i i thought was this dylan confessing too much on her own shoulders he knew if he stood there five more seconds he probably would have killed her god prop it sucks being an enlightened person enlightenment sucks because you know what would be awesome is for me to get super mad rip you apart like i did londo when i was high as a kite the scene i wish we had though was the one with ivanova going to sheridan and being like dude like you put.

[6:45] Me in a really rough spot here i got attacked in the corridor by jakar and he wasn't wrong because the thing is they don't have a problem with jakar the problem honestly was with sheridan he was trying to just not deal with the thing and now the conclusion wow i don't there's honestly so much of that like i'm a little surprised at how much to this episode i don't remember oh yeah so excited for the second time brent that's what we talked about the first time around you went and scoured the internet for what the great maker himself said about this one uh did you find anything good i did i did the vast majority of it is stuff we're gonna have to wait till we get into the episode to discuss however i'll give you just a couple of little highlights that i personally found fascinating you guys know i'm a production guy i like the behind the scenes type stuff so here's this there was a question that was asked where did the war room set go you know we'd have this new set like where you guys are in a small little like hot tub factory where where did this thing go he said since we're not using the casino much this season because there's not a lot of room for frivolity currently on babylon 5 we yanked it out and put the war room up on stage c so that's where it is all right if i had any idea of what the map of that hot tub factory looked like stage one stage two stage c whatever i don't know that'd be kind of cool to get to get our hands on i'm sure it's out there.

[8:07] So this episode deals with bester there's some telepath stuff there's a lot of questions surrounding bester, This is the episode we find out that the shadows are vulnerable to the telepaths. I believe that's what's going on in this episode or that there's a strong connection between the telepaths and the shadows. But somebody asked this question. How close does a telepath need to be to read someone? JMS says the person has to be in their line of sight. They don't have to look into the person's eyes or anything silly like that. It doesn't matter if their head or body are covered as long as they can definitely focus on that person. He says this, though, and I found this interesting considering, I think, what we see in season five. Okay. If the person is behind a door or wall or bulkhead or something of that nature or a whole group of them back there or otherwise can't visually be located, it's difficult to impossible to scan. Really? To scan? Okay. Okay. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, though, Jeff, wasn't there a thing with Byron and all his guys being on one side of the bulkhead and another telepath being on this side of the bulkhead? And they were not like scanning and communicating, but there was they were confusing them going back and forth. Yeah, I think they were trying to, like, find the cultists through the walls or whatever. And they were sending a thing of like, no, you're not finding anything here. I think that's the difference between a scan and just a suggestion telepathically. Possibly.

[9:35] Possibly. But we also know that we see in the fourth season, I'm standing on the bridge of a white star and I'm telepathing to this other ship.

[9:44] Way over there. You better be able to see it. But it was Lita who was doing that, right? So maybe, maybe it's super Lita Powers. I mean, she was Vorlon souped up, right? So I don't know. Anyway, everything else really, Jeff, has to wait until we get into the episode. So what do you say? Let's watch this episode. For those of you joining us for the very first time, I want to say hello and welcome. And I want to turn you back to what Brent said a little while ago and ask you why you're listening to this one instead of the first time one. But also we're super happy you're here. What's about to happen is we're going to watch the episode right here, right now. We're going to pull it up and watch it, react to it, respond to it, do all those really cool things. For the YouTube people, the people that are watching there, you're going to see the edited up, like the reaction video, the style that's out there. If you want to see the full, the unedited version, we share those on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you are listening to us on an audio podcasting app, I don't know, Audible maybe, Podchaser, Apple Podcast, Podbean, Pod something or other, Podcast Addict. There's a lot of Pod somethings out there. If you're listening to us on one of those platforms or maybe you are just listening to us on YouTube but not watching the video portion, which is also something you can do.

[11:04] You're – we don't want to leave you out because Jeff and I are going to have lots of conversations in the middle of this video. So what you're going to get is basically the audio from that conversation during the video. So you'll hear, you'll be able to know what we're referencing if you know the episode. And then we'll still have all the stuff on the back end where we talk about messages and we rank it and all that sort of stuff. So Jeff, with that. Let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Hopefully there are no tears. Accessing file. ISN, the galaxy's most important network. Good morning. The Interstellar Network News is back on the air, broadcasting throughout Earth and to over 2,000 colonies in deep range out there. And everything's fantastic here on Earth. It was explained what happened to cause a disruption in service. The signal from the ISN News Center here in Geneva was lost. When our facilities were attacked by saboteurs intent on paralyzing all Earth communication systems. This lady is great at being swarmy and live. ...our forces. The saboteurs used our facilities to stellar cast a...

[12:06] Designed to create the impression that the government itself was taking action against us. The government itself? Campaign of misinformation. We ourselves pull the plug on the broadcast. Listen to that music. Many ensuing firefight government forces recaptured the ISN facilities and apprehended the saboteurs. We've been working around the clock to repair the damage. And now, at last, we're back. Better than ever. Coming up in the next hour, President Clark accepts a report from the Ministry of Peace on how crime has been virtually eliminated ever since the extremely popular martial law declaration was issued. Extremely popular? Wow. You know, sometimes I think I'm too pessimistic. I mean, what's wrong with thinking maybe things might work out once in a while and then something like this happens? I mean, do they really think that people are going to fall for this? Why not? It's worked before. It's worked time and time and time again. Right? God, the captain's going to love it when he sees this. Where is he, anyway? He's being checked out, and the Star Fury is being inherited from the Churchill. So the attitude controls are pretty much the same, but a lot more sensitive. Yeah, I can feel the difference. Isn't this where we get a new Star Fury? Yeah, it's like the bomber one. Do we really see the Star Fury again in the future? Yeah. Yeah. We do? Because it's the multiple cockpit one. This is the first production model of Star Fury that can operate inside an atmosphere. No one else in a prior model can follow you in. Roger that.

[13:27] Captain we're picking up a distress call in an outer sector earth or alien earth should we scramble a search and rescue team no it's i'm gonna go let's leave them check it out yeah i'm out here give these things a real workout i'll check in as soon as we find out what it is yeah stewart in the chat says uh these star fears thunderbolt star theories are ubiquitous, okay we just saw the outside of the star fury the black omega and we just saw the black omega symbol. I know what that is now. I see that and I go, bester. Or telepath bad guy, probably Bester. Like, watching that the first time. I don't think I even noticed it. No, but you know what, Jeff? We saw it back in, like, season one or two. It was on the screen. Why wouldn't we notice it now? It's right there. How can you not know what it means? I know what it is now, though. I hear you just fine, Captain. But just get a little closer. So we can see you. I'm gonna see you. I'm gonna see you.

[14:23] Although he is. Bester, you're breaking up. Oh, I gotta go. Going through a tunnel you're going going through a tunnel besters are fin now yeah so the thunderbolt star furies are ubiquitous from this point forward the biggest thing that separates them from the other ones to me is the fact you have a second person in the cockpit right there's an actual like nose on it yeah so i'm gonna be looking for that for the rest of the show also do we not get a whole lot of star fury action after this point we get a ton of it do we do okay and you've seen I mean, you're going to see it and be like, oh, yeah. We still get the classic Star Furies. Uh-huh. We get both. Okay. I'm going to call it this. I just don't remember them really being that prevalent. Close enough for us. So somebody asked how they did these just in the production world, how they did these reflections on Sheridan's face. Yeah.

[15:12] JMS says that they were done with an LCD projector. Really? Mm-hmm. That makes sense. And the LCD would be nice because it's not, like, blinding for you. Right. Yeah. Right. And I mean, you know, I suppose it's not necessarily reflecting off the glass in the helmet there either, assuming that's glass in the. Yeah, that glass in the helmet, pretty sure. Scan. Find out who's out here. Such formality. Dester? You recognize the voice. You've got a good ear. You're not in visual range. Is there a problem? I noticed the Black Omega insignia on your Starfury. Black Omega is an elite unit attached to Psycor. Telepath can only scan you if you're on a direct line of sight, so I am making damn sure we don't get that close. So why, wait a minute, why did this feel like news to me? He explicitly said telepaths can only scan you if you're on a direct line of sight. That's been a thing, we've heard that for a long time. But it became, like, it was, it was, I don't know. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, we got it from Talia, we got it way back, we get it throughout the series. That's a thing we you know it you know it you just don't know you know it that's fair i have something for you captain something very important mr buster we no longer have any ties to earth or to the psych or we don't have to put up with you or your games give me one good reason why i should blow you out of the sky because you're curious kill me and you'll never know what brought me all the way out that's not a good reason i think if you weigh that against the brief satisfaction of blowing me out of the sky. Yeah.

[16:41] I like it when actors make fun of other actors, like in character, you know? I'm thinking it over. Well, he's like, shit, that didn't work like I thought it would. This is a defeat. I escort him to Babylon 5. Great.

[17:05] You know, if this keeps up, I'm going to start thinking that people around here just don't like me. That was a cool shot. The push-in shot as he said that. I don't like it. That was really neat. Even though a little creep could fly a Star Fury. Apparently, it's super good. Every once in a while, psychops have to go off on their own for security reasons. He's checked out on all the latest fighters. Did he tell you why he's here? He said he wanted to fill us in a personal meeting. He just wants to get close enough to scan us. Yeah, but why? I have a hard time believing he didn't stop talking the whole flight back. Broken away from Earth. You've taken a stand against Psycor, the president. Who in this room thinks he wants to help anybody but himself? He's trying to pull a fast one. So what do we do? Just keep him locked up? I don't think it's that fast. How can you find that? We have to find out if he's telling the truth. If he is, we need to hear him out. If not, I'm all for throwing him into... No, under...

[17:58] I need to speak to ivanova alone for a moment susan bester still doesn't know you're a latent telepath no he doesn't but it's it's an interesting thing like in front of garibaldi and franklin i need to speak to ivanova they leave susan yeah you know what i mean it's it's it's an interesting change like between the words like one you almost want like weren't they all on first name basis with each other yeah they're senior staff at this point different workplaces have different cultures But every place I've ever been, you're on a first name basis, even with the top guy, you know, I can imagine with these. I mean, that should be it should be Stephen and Michael and Susan and John. Yeah. Right. So even on my boat, like my division officer was Greg. I don't remember his last name. He's lieutenant and he's Greg. From a writing standpoint, from a scene standpoint, it definitely it as a watcher, it goes. This just went from professional to personal like this this narrowed it quite a bit you know yeah i'm gonna cash in on this to me are you personal scanning someone my guess is he'll grab the first person that walks in the door in case he doesn't get another chance john i can't block a psychop no but you told me that you can sense instantly if someone is scanning you if i send you in first to talk to him you'll know if he tries anything if he doesn't try it we'll know we can trust him it's not a bad plan but it's a huge risk for her for how long until we run out of food or he dies of old age whichever comes first.

[19:26] He can't guarantee that. No. Before you do that, there's something you should know. It's real sweet of John to offer that and say, well, we'll throw him in the brig if he does whatever. But he can't guarantee that. Right. Certainly not for life. You know? I was expecting the captain. He sent me. Did he? He has a better sense of humor than I thought. Please sit. How much self-restraint is Bester showing right now by not scanning her? Walk out that door and wall me up inside. Do a little recreation of the cask of a Montagliado. I kind of think he knows that she's telepathic, but he knows the score. Did you get near a point? I really hope, I really hope he says A Cask of Amontillado. That caused people to go look that up and read that story. Oh, that would be nice, right? That's a messed up story. That is a messed up story. If you haven't seen that or you don't know what that is, it's not a movie. It's a story. It's a short story. It's not very long. By Edgar Allan Poe. Go read it. It's messed up, man. I don't think it's, yeah. I can't think of any shows or movies, which is interesting, actually. Terrible pity about your mother. But she took her own life. It wasn't the core that did it. I was just noticing. You have her eyes.

[20:34] True blood. You know... It's come to my attention lately that we have a common enemy. There's an old saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[20:46] He sets it up. He sets it up and he pays it off later when he says, your war is my war. My war. Right.

[20:52] Sets it up and tells us. And look, I know I saw somebody in our chat earlier was like, well, the war just ended before they needed him. No, no, no. That's on the writer. The writer ended the war before he was needed.

[21:02] He said, he says in his book, you don't show somebody a gun if you don't use it by act five or three or something like that. And you don't use a gun later. If you didn't show it to him back in act one, you don't show us this and then not really use it and not use it. Like the way you kind of said, like it just, I hate it. Hey, real quick. Uh, something from JMS. Somebody asked if, uh, Bester read Ivanova when she slapped him there real quick. Okay. Right. Big emotional outburst. Yeah. Yeah. To which he says, I think the contact would have been too fleeting to really get it to really get a read and too much of a shock because it likely hurt like the dickens now i gotta be honest based on my reaction before i expected a much bigger slap i this just seemed like a regular just yeah yeah i expected have you ever seen those like slap fights oh yeah right i expected something kind of more like that but no this was just like and she happened to draw blood maybe she flipped her ring around first it might have been a miss on the foley work and a little on the react possibly possibly possibly um yeah and it says by that time he knew it was uh by the time he knew that the her hand was there it was already gone and had been too late so he couldn't really scan her so i get that makes sense isn't calling the shots back home there are others whispering in his ear i don't know who they are or where they're from but i do know they're not human you know more about them than i do she's trying hard to not show her cards sharing that information.

[22:26] It's the jealousy of evolution normals like you are obsolete normal future belongs to telepaths i intend to make sure that future happens one way or the other you know who he is it just hit me he's magneto okay yeah bester's magneto he homo superior over homo sapien we're better we're here we're just gonna take over that's where he is that's what bester is he's he's just magneto only turns out we never actually like do the friend thing and kind of get him on our side sort of kind of yeah i was gonna say magneto kind of works out a little bit yeah off and on but that probably explains why we like him because you you like magneto as well yeah but we can't be on top if the aliens get there first and some of them have through clark they've infiltrated the cycle and apparently they have their own plans for my telepaths whatever these aliens are my telepaths my plans for the future my plans i won't have it i won't have it and so i need someone who feels the same way i do there's a lot of i i i brings me to you you like to hurt them commander because i think i know how all right hurt them meaning the shadows yeah now we know shadows can be done by telepaths yep is that what buster knows i don't think that he knows that yet yeah so is he bs in here or does he have a theory that is just the wrong theory what do we think i think that he thinks he's better than everyone and because he's better he can do something but i i think he i I do believe he thinks he has a plan.

[23:55] I do believe he thinks he's on to something, but I don't think it's telepaths hinder shadows. Yeah. I don't think that's, that's no one knows. Yeah.

[24:04] Yeah. I think, I think it's something else. Um, I also think this moment is a shift investor. I think it's a very important shift prior to this. He's been issue to issue. I'm here for Ironheart. I'm here for the underground railroad. I'm here for, uh, tall, you know, tall, whatever, all the different, now we're getting the megalomania of Bester. This isn't just about this assignment. This is about me. This is about my people being better than you and me being a steward and protector of my people. All right. I want you to, uh, we're going to dive into a little Stargate talk here real quick, Compare and contrast this guy with Kenzie versus Mayborn. Use your most up-to-date knowledge on those guys. Yeah, yeah. Which, for those listening, we are recording the middle end-ish of season eight right now. So I have a lot of knowledge on that.

[24:55] Bester is Kenzie. He's not interested. So, well. All right. First of all, let's start. For those of you who don't know, the basic difference between Kenzie and Mayborn, both of them bad guys, but they're also our own guys. But the basic difference between the two you and I have discussed is? Kinsey is, well, Mayborn cares about the United States. He cares about the world, but he doesn't have the scruples that say the good guys, quote unquote, would have to get it done. Any means necessary sort of a guy. Kinsey, any means necessary sort of guy, but he doesn't care about the United States. He doesn't care about Earth. He wants what's in it for him. So like they're going to both show up to do a thing. Mayborn might go ahead and take a little bit for himself. kenzie's only going to take things for himself and i was about to go down the path that bester is kinsey but honestly he is yep i say honestly not so much no he is kinsey but when i when i think about even what we read in the the psychore trilogy of him like he'll straight up kill other telepaths if they're in his way because his telepaths are a means to an end for himself for him and him alone which doesn't mean he doesn't care about his telepaths right exactly but they They don't compare to how he cares about himself, though.

[26:10] This is such a powerful scene right here. I said it. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say, so as we go into this, JMS says this. I didn't give Mira or Andreas any instructions on that scene except what was in the script, which was minimal. When you have two performers that solid in the room, just give them the lines and run like hell. Stay out of their way. Just let them go. We've had a couple episodes here in this middle of season three that have just been the absolute best of Delenn.

[26:44] Sure. And different versions of her as well. You know that we've talked about different aspects and perspectives from her. This to me might be her greatest moment in the whole series. You think so? Maybe. Because I think like there's her in Severed Dreams. Oh, you're in front of me there. Like that's bravado and it's huge and it's incredible and it's awesome and it's easy to point to. But this is a thing that I think the reason we don't talk about this scene when we talk about Dylan very much is because this is a thing that isn't exciting. This isn't a thing you can point to and say, that's so great that she did this thing. Because what she's doing is completely exposing herself and saying, Jakar, I screwed up and I'm here to take whatever accountability I need to take. This is pure humility and strength at a level that I don't think people can really, until you have wronged someone and willingly unprompted went in front of them and said hey you need to know this thing i don't think we can imagine the kind of strength that it takes for delin to show up in this moment so i have a question did delin really harm was delin really at all at fault for what happened did delin was like is this actually something a necessary place of guilt that delin needs to feel so she's not responsible for what the centauri did to the narn the centauri are responsible for that.

[28:05] Right. And I don't think that's what she's apologizing for. What she's apologizing for is the conscious decision they made to let that happen and not say anything. But was that the wrong decision? Maybe. Maybe not. In this scope of things, from a you're a person I respect, Jakar, it was the wrong decision. I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. Let's watch this and see how it plays out. Yeah. I might have some thoughts on that. Hello, Jakar. By the way, everything you said about harming somebody and then coming to apologize, that's all 100% right.

[28:41] Vester on the bridge of a white star. Right. Actually, isn't this the white star for the moment? Yeah. Did they change the bridge configuration? It seems cleaner. Is that something, Captain? Not a word. Approaching target. Banners aren't picking anything up. So here we have Walter Koenig and Bill Mooney in a scene together. According to bill this marks the first time that a lost in space regular and a star trek regular have been together in the same scene really pretty interesting according to bill which means might be wrong i don't know i haven't verified it but that's what he said works for me all right let's see what you can do.

[29:18] Get the hell out of my chair get the hell out of my chair, I wonder how much of that was Star Trek and Spider-Man. I was thinking the same. Look where he's standing. He's in his spot. He is, isn't he? He's in his spot in front of the captain. All right, Jeff, you'll know this answer better than I do. Debra asks, how often was Chekhov actually in the captain's chair? One time, and I think it was in Star Trek V. The shadows, the ancient enemy as you call them, had returned. We knew they were rebuilding their forces, preparing to strike. We knew that they were seeking allies, and that the Centauri were the first to enlist. When you came back from the area near Zahadum and warned us about the enemy's return, we could have spoken out. We could have confirmed your story. We chose to remain silent. Who is we? The Grey Council. I was still a part of them at that time. Once the decision was made, I could not disobey. So you stayed silent. And with the help of these shadows, the Centauri destroyed my world. Enslaved or killed millions of my people.

[30:25] If we had spoken out, if we had gone public with what we knew, most of the other worlds would never have believed us. It would have changed nothing. Your world would still have fallen with one critical difference. There are billions of Narns still surviving on your world. If we had exposed the shadows, they would have struck openly before we had time to prepare. And none of your people would have survived.

[30:51] Jikar under the centauri there is at least the hope of survival with the shadows there is no hope at all we had to choose between the death of millions and the death of billions of whole planets okay i do not believe knowing what i know about the minbari that the great council had a discussion about whether or not we should tell the narn that the centauri or that the shadows are back and that they said, well, we probably should, but if we do, they'll all be gone and Narn will be completely wiped out. If we allow it to happen, we know they're going after the Centauri. If the Centauri come back and they take over, they're going to harm millions of Narn, but at least they'll survive. I don't believe for an instant that the Mimbari had that much thought and input into whether or not they told anybody about whether or not they should stay silent or stay or speak up. I really, I'm sorry. I just I don't buy like Dylan saying it. So we'll assume it's true. But given what we know of the of the Great Council, given what we know of Minbari culture now, I don't know that I don't know that I buy that that concept there. I don't think they ever did. I think what they did, they don't care about the Narn or the Centauri. That war doesn't concern them.

[32:03] Exactly. That was the discussion. But well, I don't even I don't think they even discussed that. Like, I don't think it got to that level. What they discussed at some point was, well, in fact, we saw some of this in, in the beginning, the shadows are coming back. So they had a discussion around, we need to play this close to the vest because as soon as they know that we know it's on. Right. And so I just think that guiding principle, like Delenn and the rest of the Grey Council kind of took that as like, hey, we know the shadows and the Centauri are working together, but we already know we can't say anything about that because it'd be showing our, it'd be playing our hand too soon.

[32:39] So she's kind of taking that and running with her interpretation of, hey, we saved, she's had to rationalize it for herself because she actually cares. Becky says this, and I think this is actually quite brilliant. Says, this actually feels more like a discussion that Dillon had with Kosh than what she had with the great council. That feels a hundred percent more likely. And I would believe that that conversation would happen. And I could even believe that Dillon would have taken that back to the great council that I could believe, but I think the great council would have then turned around and said exactly what you just said. Yeah. Who cares? We don't care about their war, but don't say anything about the shadows. Exactly. Exactly. Um, I do want to go back to our conversation when this first started. And at this point in the apology, I'm going to say that Dylan did not make the wrong decision. She made the right decision. I agree with you. And that's the thing. I don't know. I don't know that she harmed Narn. I don't think that she harmed Jakar. Somebody else also said earlier, I hear it is Suzanne. Suzanne says that Dylan chose to remain silent because Jakar wasn't very trustable at the time. Go back to those first two seasons of Jakar. Not a great dude, man. Not a great dude. He was the bad lizard guy. Right, right.

[33:51] So, you know, and that's the thing, like now that we're closer to Jakar, now that he's a better guy, now that we know him, we're more friends with him, knowing the atrocity that's happened, it feels worse because, man, we could have spoken up. We could have said something. Maybe, you know, we didn't need to support that. We whatever. But that's judging past actions through the lens of today versus judging past actions through the lens of what you were looking at at that time, given information, given the same amount of information in that same situation, probably going to make the same decision. Doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to make, even if it didn't work out well. And even through the lens of now, the lens is still not wrong. It would have changed nothing, and it saved billions. Yeah. And so why are we telling Jakar this right now? Because they're going to bring him in, and it'll come out. Okay, that seems dumb. Better to have this conversation than to be in the middle of a council meeting and be like, wait, you knew the whole time? Yeah. Now I'm mad. I'm going to gnar and roundhouse kick you. And maybe this is just, maybe this really is one of those things like Jakar, Jakar is going to get angry when he hears all of this and he needs time to work that out. Yep.

[34:59] And in this case, he needs a person to like put it on. It's not the war effort. It's not the whatever. Dillon did this to me. And I'm going to process that. By the way, that's a, that's a different conversation though than what I think, than what Dillon's about to have here. The conversation, hey, this is what happened. And here's why we chose to do that. You get to have whatever reaction you're going to have, Jakar. I'm not taking blame for it that we made the best decision we had at the time. Like, that's just what it was. You know? Yeah. And frankly, given what she said right here, it was still the best decision. So far, yeah. You know? I can't imagine what she's going to say that would change that, but. Let's find out. I don't remember, so. I'd already discovered. Much of what you just told me about the Centauri. That you knew and said nothing. And I learned this as my world was being bombed by the Centauri. I would have killed you instantly. You understand that, do you not? Also why Shoop didn't say anything. Yes, I do. And he would have done that because he was old Jakar. Without having had his Jaquan experience. Some must be sacrificed. If all are to be saved. So he's got a new lens right now. And so he's saying... I took that as revelation for the future. Oh, I see. It's a south. It is as much about how we got here as about where we are going.

[36:26] Jeff, how many minutes did you and I spend talking about what that phrase meant and what that meant for Jakar and the Narn as a whole and their actions going forward? And at no point did we point to this moment of the Centauri had to be able to do this. I mean, if we could fix the tense of his thing, it's not some must be sacrificed for others to survive. It's some had to be sacrificed for everyone else to survive. Some have been. wow i love so jakar's having this jakar's having this thought like that's awful that's crappy i there i would have killed you where you stand and but so far jakar is going but even jaquan said some jaquan slash he doesn't know it's kosh yet no i don't think so okay so he's going i he's he's understanding where she is right now and they're having a moment okay let's keep watching do you have something i was gonna say i love uh delen in the chat quoting an incredible person where She says, being enlightened sucks. Dude, I don't know who said that, but that is an incredible person. By the way, I just want to say for any, especially of our audio listeners out there, even our YouTube folks, there is Dillon who is within the show. But we actually have somebody in our council chambers who joins us. Their name is also Dillon. So one named for the other. Yes, you're not mistaken with that.

[37:47] So you're not hearing us misspeak. That's who that person is. And both the lens, two thumbs up. I think that one sentence is the greatest burden I have ever known. It sucks. Yes. You're right. Nothing would have been changed except that my people would not be dead right.

[38:07] You have come a long way jacar for not killing me right now that i could have guessed, sheridan's promise binds me as well as it does him we will take you into the council jacar and someday when all this is over perhaps you will find it in your heart to forgive me, so great.

[38:31] Oh yeah oh yeah say it say it jeff she asked for forgiveness You ask for it. Also, what else? And he says, maybe. Not today. He says, maybe one day, but not today. Not today. And that's okay. That's okay. That's so okay. That's also okay. But also, is this not foreshadowing for what's going to happen between Londo and Jakar later? Absolutely it is. Is this not showing us exactly now what's going to happen later between those two? My people will never forgive your people, but I forgive you. It's so... And for how often did Jakar be like, I'm not going to forgive you. I'm not going to forgive you. I'm not going to forgive you. Okay, now I can forgive you. I can. And he says here, maybe one day I will forgive you, but not today. It's showing us Jakar's. Here's what I love about Jakar. His capacity to know himself. Yeah. To not just placate her by being like, oh, yeah, sure, fine. I forgive you. And then not actually doing the work in his heart. Totally disingenuous. He's got to take the time to do that in his heart. Because right now, what Jakar's saying is the logical, rational, here are the facts that I know, and I know that this was okay and that this was right and probably the best move. My heart is not in agreement yet.

[39:47] And I need to take some time to get those two lined up before I move forward with this. It's the power of and, right? So like the traditional thing to say would be, you lied to me, you covered this up, you didn't say anything, but because of that, a lot of people lived and we have a chance to go on. The but makes it sound like, you know, you still suck because you lied to me. But he says, you covered this up, you kept it a secret, you didn't say anything, and more people survived we have a chance to live now the and says both of those things can be true at the same time it's okay i am furious i am crushed i am devastated that you didn't tell this to me and you made the right choice i'm glad you made that choice and it sucks yeah and then like you said he needs to take that time to process to.

[40:39] Line those truths up align his heart and his mind so he can truly forgive i don't think we ever get the scene and i wish we did in like way in season four it'd be great if it was out there where he just says to let forgive you hey that one thing we talked about that one time i forgive you yeah i still got that i remember it and we're good so uh speaking of our dylan outer line comments over there the levels of manipulation from kosh are off the charts i'm gonna push back on that yeah just like i pushed back on you in the earlier video i'm gonna push back on the limitless I don't see. Here's the thing. I don't think that's necessarily manipulation because I could I can see the argument here. Hey, we're going to let all these people die. We're going to go through all these things. But the reason we had to do it is because X, Y, Z. And now I'm going to go up here to you and I'm going to tell you and convince you that it was OK because of X, Y, Z and manipulate you into believing that versus, hey, here's why we did this. Here's the reasons why this was the best choice. And here's X, Y, Z. I'm now going to come explain that to you, but I'm going to do it in a way that you'll understand. I don't know that that's manipulation. As much as explanation in a way that people will understand, in a way that people will accept. Maybe. Where I get stuck is if the way to get me to listen is to pretend to be my dad and my God, that's in an experience where you're high off your horse.

[41:56] Like, I've actually spoken to both of those people when I've been in that state. I'm just saying, dude. I'm just saying. See, the thing is, and this may be my idea of manipulation, where I'm going to define that word, is that it is for when you manipulate somebody, it is for self and personal benefit and gain. If Kosh is doing that so that he justifies what he did and Jakar doesn't get pissed off at him, manipulation. If he does that to help Jakar and by proxy the rest of Narn come to terms with what happened and begin to understand what's going on, that's not a self-benefit to Kosh. That's not manipulation. That's helping them through. That's how I would distinguish the two. I don't disagree. Different people may distinguish that. Different people may distinguish that differently.

[42:45] But that's kind of the lens I'm looking at right now. We've talked about this in the past where I say, you know, a good supervisor is going to manipulate their team. But not in a bad way, not in a hurtful way, but like you're here working. I literally need to get you to do things you don't want to do. That's why I'm giving you money to show up. Like if you just wanted to do this. Wages, Mrs. Malloy. I'm paid to make people do work they don't want to do. Yep. It's a form of manipulation. But I think like what we know is the Vorlon are not these altruistic trying to save the galaxy people. They are laser focused. They're so laser focused on eliminating the shadows that during this conflict, they actually start killing other races, genociding them and blowing up planets. It's nuts what they go to so yeah he's trying to say what we did is okay and i need you jakar to be ready to sacrifice more because we vorlon need to kill the shadows and i need you to be cool with getting sacrificed we're going to sacrifice you one way or the other but if you're cool with it the only thing i would amend with what you just said there is because we vorlon need to kill the shadows and i don't think it's so much about the vorlon's needing to kill the shadows as much as the shadows just needing to be killed yeah but you also think the vorlon's are the good guys i have said that of the two the four lines are still the good guys the more good guys the more the more gooder yeah the more gooder yeah i need to i need to go throw up now.

[44:09] Okay well okay so that's the end of that conversation all right let's revisit what you said this whole thing about delin coming to apologize and acknowledge and and all this i don't think she apologized nope she took accountability she didn't she took accountability She also said, you know, I hope one day you can forgive me because I can understand why you would hold this against me. But she also kind of came in and said, hey, here's what we did and here's why. And it actually was the right choice. And I know you're mad at me and I hope you can forgive me because you're mad at me for that. But it doesn't mean I was wrong. And it doesn't mean that I wronged you. But I hope that you this is the kind of forgiveness that like I hope you can come to that understanding and we can you know that you're not going to hold that against me. Right. I remember that scene very, very differently. I remember Dylan coming to Jakar crying her eyes out. She was not. She was teary. She was not like bawling. I remember Dylan bawling me. I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? I failed you. And I'm the worst person in the world for like, that's what I actually remember from that scene. And Jakar just going the blood drip, drip, drip. Like I like I know that was the thing with fear but like he was like I'm gonna kill you but I'm gonna hold myself back and go calm down and smoke a cigarette like that's what I remember that scene being and that's not what that scene was at all no not at all at all firing.

[45:36] Debra asked if Dylan thought she might be killed by Jakar after that conversation. I think the answer is yes. Yeah. I think during the conversation, she was afraid at any moment. She thought that it could possibly happen, but she stood in there like a chance. And now there's the admirable quality to be like, hey, you're ready now? You want to come into this? Let's tell you the full detail of what's actually going on. And here's the full detail. And you might not like it. If I can compare this to anything, all right, and this might be where, like, I don't necessarily think I have a problem with what the Vorlon did with the other races, okay? As a math teacher, what's one of the rules that we teach? Well, you know one of the rules we teach kids at a very young age when they're first learning to add and subtract? What's that? That you can never, ever, when you're subtracting, put the smaller number on top. Oh, yeah. The bigger number always goes on top. We tell little kids this when they're first learning to subtract, or at least in classical mathematics education, we do. But here's what you and I all know. There exists this thing called negative numbers. You absolutely can put the smaller number on top, but we have not taught that to the kids yet. In fact, in classical education, we don't get that till we get into pre-outchurch and seventh grade, which seems really far away, but that's really where it's properly placed. And when you get to seventh grade, go ahead. No kid's like, you've been holding this back from me the whole time? Right, right. Now, I will tell you, when I currently teach this class and I go into this, the first thing I tell people when we get to our unit and we start talking about negative numbers, I look at seventh grade and say.

[47:06] Do you remember how ever since the first grade or second grade we've been telling you you can only ever put the top number? Well, guess what? We've been lying the whole time. Go nuts.

[47:15] Hey, when we get to division and we tell you that the bigger number goes on the inside, guess what? We've been lying to you there, too. Turns out you can't. But you weren't ready for it yet. You didn't have the knowledge to be able to handle that yet in a similar situation.

[47:32] Jakar, listen, you're going to come into our council. You're going to be here earlier. You didn't have the knowledge and the wherewithal to be able to handle what I'm about to tell you and we think you do now It feels a lot more patronizing though than the math like math. That's a fact you cannot process this yet, hey you know what little slugger like you can handle hard things now you've done the good work i've decided you've done enough work uh but but again but you also sat here with me and said jakar is a very different person than he was in season one and season two yeah but that's not for me to tell him and he didn't say it no one said it here he showed it and then he showed it and then delen reflected it back jakar you've grown so much you've come a long way that's beautiful.

[48:14] That's no more patronizing than what you just said. I was not patronizing at all. Just said in a different, oh, it absolutely is. No. Just said in a different way. Just said without the snark, but it's the same thing. Not at all. And I'll say this very clearly. If I said that, I said, if the conversation started like this, hey, Brent, you've done a lot of work and you're in a different place than you were before. So here's this thing that I need to tell you that I didn't tell you before. What do you mean I'm ready to hear that? What do you talk? You're not going to say that. As opposed to, look, I'm Brent and I'm saying the cool things and doing the right things. I say, wow, you have really come a long way. I can hear it in what you're saying. This isn't something you would have said two years ago. Something you're saying now is incredible. Not now you're ready to hear it. I just acknowledge that you've done the growth. Don't see the difference. One is so patronizing. That was just reflecting what the person has shown you.

[49:02] But they both mean the same thing. It's just one is said without snark. That's the only difference that I see. I think in the first one, it's me making a pre-judgment and then telling you that pre-judgment. When I reflect it, I'm waiting for you to show it to me and say it or just or demonstrate it. One just feels like you're too chicken poop to say it out loud.

[49:26] Y'all come on over here. Let's sit down and have some shine while we have a chit chat on the porch. Thank you, Suzanne. Target has been eliminated. I'm picking up another ship. It's a shadow vessel, probably the mothership for the fighters. Stand by to... Just a moment. It's breaking off. It's not attacking. Why didn't they attack? They must know we're here. Unknown. We could pursue it and attempt to inquire. Thanks, no. Just as happy to get out of here without another fight. Set course for home. Are you sure you don't know what's inside that ship, Mr. Bester? Weapons, supplies. That's what I was told. He really believed that those were weapons. Yeah. Also, those really are weapons. They are. For the audio viewers, we just saw that these were human beings inside of these.

[50:29] I'm curious to see when Bester starts getting really upset. Is it just when he knows they're telepaths or when he sees Carol? its own life rather than be captured i've seen anything quite like it before was best or right were there weapons aboard that depends how you define weapons, these are telepaths that would be my guess we found about a hundred of them in sleeper tubes and look on some of their faces i don't think they went voluntarily, oh You knew there were telepaths aboard that ship, and you didn't tell us. Why? Your crew here isn't exactly sympathetic to the Psycorps. I assume that since those at risk were members of the Corps, you wouldn't be interested in helping. You told us there were weapon systems aboard that ship. That's what I was told. There are small metallic interfaces on either side of the head. That always cracks me up when they have brain things down here at the bottom jaw.

[51:22] Okay, that's so scary. Someone's definitely messed with her wetware. From the serial number, she was classified as either P11 or P12. Very high on the teep scale. She... Uh-oh. He just saw who it was. What was she doing on an alien transport bound for the ramp? Does he know for a fact it's her or does he suspect it's her? I need to see her. I think he suspects. Oh, I think he knows. hours too long so what did he see did he see her serial number carolyn's serial number did he see her name i i think he knows exactly who it is i think that's why he wants to go see her because he like i know who it is i need to confirm that it actually is maybe maybe uh it really could go either way i'm on the side of he knows exactly who it is with no doubt you are on the side of he thinks he knows who it is with some doubt but he needs to go clarify i'm on the side that he knows exactly who the bracelet belongs to he doesn't know if that person in the tube is that person okay fair enough fair enough i have to see her, Now, honey, it's my honey. All right, these are the stride. Nope. No. They are unnamed shadow minions.

[52:48] That was great transition from her screaming to the alarm. That's great work by the director and his team. Yep. Great work. And if that was written in the script, great work by JMS. So JMS says, there is no relation between the aliens working for the shadows, these people we just saw, and the Strive. Right, yeah. The Strive do not work for the shadows. Let's be very clear about that. They're their own thing. The ones you saw in the flash were doctors of a sort doing the work. There was no abduction required except, of course, the covert kidnapping from the Psy Corps Re-Education Center. Asbestos. I don't want to go in there.

[53:26] Debra points out those are the same aliens that fit Londo with his keeper. Yeah, I think so. Interesting. Yeah. That's what I think so, but I don't remember for sure. But we questioned all the way through the first time if they were Strybe. The Stryber a little smoother in their appearance, a little more gray, Roswell gray looking. It's a different take on organic tech coming up here. Yeah. It's like in Superman three when the lady's like in the machine and gets roboted. No. So Jeff, I couldn't say this to you back then, but I can say this to you now. You know what? As soon as I see this, what I immediately thought of then what I think of now, I wouldn't be shocked if I actually mentioned it in our first watch through. This is that Sam Carter episode in Stargate when she gets taken over by the computer. Oh my gosh over the base yeah it looks exactly like that to a t it looks exactly like that forgot about that that's good that's what i think of steven no let me try it's all right my kid said oh my god mass effect steals everything from the show right you've been through a rough time i don't know that i've got to that happen to you i know they've been traumatic but you're gonna be okay, operation overlord talking about it's uh you're coming up on it some of the dlc you can get into Alfred. She calls him by this name. She doesn't call him Al. Other people call him Al later.

[54:46] Steven, don't. I want to help you. Let me just fit this hypo spray thing here. But you gotta let us get to you. Don't pay attention to what's in my pain. We can stop the pain. Give us a chance to stop the pain. No, no. She's trying to hurt you. Yeah. Chief, we're getting a serious energy surge from Med Lab 1. Okay. Is this happening in the war room? Or this is MedLab. Shut down the systems links to MedLab. Standby. The machine says kill to protect. Protect. The sign hurts us. Very occurring. You cannot hear the machine. What machine? My mind. I am the machine. We join. We fight. It is terrible.

[55:30] Please make it stop talking in my mind that'd be so horrible okay so as seasoned viewers of the show this doesn't seem out of place this seems very in universe this is very well established in the universe okay uh-huh we've seen the great machine we've seen draw down there go in and out and he he had a real easy in and out time with it right yeah we saw the dude in protect we understand that kosh integrates with his organic tech ship at this point like as a as a person who's gone through the show she's out she's just doing this is organic tech stuff is all this is as a first time watcher i'm still trying to figure out like this doesn't jump off the screen at me as organic tech this jumps off the screen at me as the computer is taking me over and hurting me yeah you know i mean that's my i don't know if you have a different experience that's my experience right now looking at it but looking at it now i'm like yeah this is obvious like of course we've seen this before i think i had a inkling of this the first time because we learned in messages from.

[56:28] Earth about human cpus for the right for the vessels and so it's like yeah this is like she's being built to be a cpu and so she's probably looking for any kind of input to plug into a i i think i did make that connection the first time through yeah i think you like i like that that's kind of what we're seeing here but i still don't think i connected the human cpu i certainly the draw and the great machine i didn't connect that as organic tech you know So organic tech to me was still whatever that prothean dude back in episode two or three had going on.

[57:02] I kept waiting for that whole thing to come back. I love you, Kaldiakar, and a prothean. What have they done to me? What have they done?

[57:18] Get in there, Bester. Find out what's going on in that brain of hers. Look at the human in there. That's like the last thing she could do is be like, I'm going to tell you what happened. What did you see? She was pesharing. Garibaldi said she called you by name. Who is she? My lover. Mm-mm. That is such a horrible word to use to describe someone. I thought you had a wife and daughter back on Mars. I do. What does that have to do with it? Really?

[57:57] Yet. When I found out she was pregnant with our child, I kept after her to go on the sleepers or join the Corps. We could be together that way. That's it, isn't it? Mm-hmm. They were going to plug those people into their ships. Weapons components. Weapons components. That's all they are to the shadows. Components. that's how she was able to interface with all the equipment in med lab she was going to merge with the station but why telepaths dylan never said that was a requirement can you help her, i don't know and the technology that's plugged into her brain is beyond anything we've seen before i'll wait however long it takes she's the only thing i have captain i promised her i would take care of her and the baby and the baby the only promise i ever made that means a damn to me if You can save her. I'll do anything you want to help your war.

[58:48] Is now my war i will do anything you need to help i mean here i am alfred freaking bester bester is going to be a part of the end of this before we're all said and done absolutely not it's going to finish before he can get involved besters on our side not all of that no we just saw checkoffs bester uh uh-huh uh-huh so there's an interesting conversation going on in our chat By the way, for those of you who don't know, our council chambers tier folks on our Patreon page are invited to join us for our recordings here at Babylon 5 for the second time. And they're talking about how gross this relationship is between Bester and Carolyn. And I think it's worth at least a brief conversation on our side, specifically just talking about the power imbalance between the two and how that becomes wildly inappropriate and wildly gross. It's reminiscent to me, not that I was alive back then or not that I – whatever, but of when you hear about old slave masters falling in love with their slaves. Yeah. Yeah.

[59:58] Right? Okay, let me bring this a little closer to home, which is something I have some experience with. How about when you're in a church and you have a pastoral situation where the pastor is in a very power imbalanced situation, having an affair with either a staff member or a member of the church? Which, again, very inappropriate on multiple levels, not the least of which is just that power amounts. But then there's the question of, so you love this person. Okay, fine. Does that person love you back? Right. Do they really have the choice to love you back? Even if they think they love you back, do they really have that as a choice given the power imbalance?

[1:00:38] I don't know what to think of that because I've never been in that situation. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know that I cognitively understand why there's why that's fundamentally a problem and why it's not OK. But I don't know that I can sit back and say that Carolyn didn't also love Bester back and that that relationship was actually mutual despite the power imbalance. Yeah, I'm going to say it's not possible. I live in a power imbalance in my career, right? Like I have multiple levels of management that are underneath me in the org chart, hundreds of people spread throughout. And what I know is I have people, coworkers that I would consider friends, right? You know, and, uh, you know, we go out to coffee sometimes or whatever they come to the house. I have little barbecues or get togethers. None of those people really know me. There's always a wall that exists because of that power differential. I'm even super aware, like when I invite people, hey, I'm gonna have a barbecue at my place, you're invited. I don't get to pick and choose who I'm gonna invite. I basically have to be like, everyone at this level and up is who I have to invite because of the power differential. And there's an unspoken pressure for them to be like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll be there. To the point that I call it out. Hey, I'm having the barbecue. If you can't make it, totally fine. Please don't tell me you can if you can't. It doesn't make a difference. That power differential is still there. I don't know that they are truly a friend. I'm never going to trust them with something vulnerable.

[1:02:04] And when you, if you can't do that, you can't truly love. Interesting. It's interesting hearing it coming from your side of it. Yeah. From, from the person to whom the power and balance would be tilted toward somebody who's holding that in a rather responsible way. I try. I really do. You know, because I guess the other thing too is, is how did, how would you know if that person ever actually loved you or if they were just using you for their own? Like how, how would you ever truly be able to know that? So most organizations have anti-fraternization policies that are explicit around the power differential. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think we can safely just land it. Bester with this girl is a very inappropriate relationship, despite how he actually may feel about her. We can't necessarily assume that the relationship was actually mutual. If it was, she probably would have joined Psycorps or taken the sleepers or something. You have picked the most auspicious day to join the war council, Jakar. The captain tells me that a new ally has joined our cause today, and that our new facilities are complete. Ours has been a long and difficult Rojicar, filled with mistrust. Once you step through this door, all of that changes forever. You're in the circle of trust. Right. I like the use of the handycam here. Like it gives us a little bit of like unsureness, but then the music is reassuring, like there's a lot of feelings that are competing, and I think it's super great and super intentional.

[1:03:30] I am honored to be among you. Take your glove off, man. Right? Well, he can't. His other hand is clenched, and he... Sound dubious? He's still a psychop. I don't trust him, never will. He has a vested interest in helping us for now, but once this is all over, he'll turn on us. You do know that. Mind walker to Sheridan. Sheridan, go. Code 7R, 15 minutes. I'm kind of in the middle of something. Big time. You're going to love this.

[1:04:00] You don't have to pull him off of something to share this it's interesting but it's not like all hands on deck right now but it's garibaldi so he's got to make it that way all right so see if you can pick up on this okay see if you can pick up on this it apparently is so noticeable that people ask garibaldi's voice here is dubbed it's looped on this scene here confirmed in this scene and the reason is because there were some unacceptable noises coming from the chair that jerry was sitting in okay so they had to loop all of his lines and basically they said that the best performed scene the best acted scene just was the audio was unusable so they had to go in and reloop reloop his stuff so see if you can pick up on how they did that all right because it it was noticeable enough that somebody asked stewart says it's extremely low and hello michael you look like the proverbial cat that ate the equally proverbial canary.

[1:04:50] I've got it. I've got it. I've got it. It's right here. It's right. Right here. Do not thump the Book of Shakur. It is disrespectful. It is not a satisfying thump. Jakar, as I understand it, there aren't any Narn telepaths, correct? Yes, I'm afraid it is so. It is a matter of great concern to us. But once upon a time, there were Narn telepaths, weren't there? Yes, but they and their families were wiped out a thousand years ago. The gene that controls telepathy has never been strong enough in any of the survivors to breed another one. Mr. Garibaldi, I'm not entirely sure I see the point in it. A thousand years ago, Ambassador. You said the last time the shadows were on the move was a thousand years ago. Jakar, it says here that your world was used as a base by the ancient enemy during that time. Yes, that is correct.

[1:05:34] And the spirit of darkness moved upon the land. It screamed in the dreams of the mind walkers, and they fell, destroyed by it, to their children and their children's children. Then did the darkness come to Narn until it was driven out by Jaquan and the last of the surviving Mindwalkers. Mindwalkers? Telepaths? They're afraid of telepaths. Carolyn fired at Bester's Psycor insignia to protect. The sign hurts us. This part right here. We cannot hear the machine. This sounds... This is the dumb part right here. They're using humans to control their ships. Maybe telepaths can block their system, jam it. He might be right we've never seen the shadows back away from a fight but they didn't attack the white star when we were right there why what was different about it bester was on board that was explain their decision to infiltrate your psych or and take telepaths as components for their ships perhaps they intend to use one telepath to stop another by god people we have a weapon i just hope it's in time because we're gonna need it, We just got a report. The Shadows have just started attacking Bricuri's space. Openly. They're not hiding anymore. They're finally on the move. They know that we know. Oh, my God.

[1:06:57] My brand does ship of tears. I actually had a lot to dive into in that one. I'm curious, any thoughts, anything on messages that you might have? I mean, we exhausted, I think, everything during the middle of the episode. I don't know that we need to rehash too much of that. Maybe a closing thought on this episode. This is an entirely different episode on the second watch. Entirely. Absolutely. We have found several episodes over the course of the series so far that is very, very different. This, Jeff, is probably one of the top three episodes where things change so much between the first and second watch. And I love it. I'm here for it. What a great freaking episode. You know what? This episode was not by any stretch of the imagination. It's not a palate cleanser, not filler. You know, we come off of Avalon last week. Okay. Whatever that was. A metaphorical examination of something. There you go. Awesome. Yeah. Sure.

[1:07:51] Whatever. But I mean, Avalon comes off of. Seek Transit Veer. Seek Transit Veer. And then that comes shortly off of the Severed Dreams trilogy. Yeah. Like this season's not letting up man no this season's not letting this i mean when you just salivate over good tv and good writing this is the stuff that you're like look just get through the first season and a half of the show i promise you you're it's gonna be cool it's you're you're gonna be right there and when you think of the cheesy makeup with londo and the hair and jacar which frankly in the first season just doesn't look great at this point you're it just looks normal it's just a part of the show right like you don't you don't even notice that make jacar's makeup is so stinking good it's perfect it's i think in this one the makeup and the lighting came together in a way that gave him a softer appearance than we've seen which i think was super appropriate for he was more blue he had a blue light on him the whole time yeah.

[1:08:46] Which is soft it's friendly blue is also the color of heroes it's the color of friendship not red how how often have we seen jacar in red he's in his quarters everything is red is that everything's red he's not that no he's friend jeff you got it you got any other kind of closing thoughts on this one as we go out or if you got any other messages you want to talk about nothing we haven't didn't talk about during it itself i just want to point out the meta thing of of babylon five we talked about it the first time around it's going to be a through line here in the second time as well but that idea of forgiveness and i think that this was a really It was a powerful scene when we watched it the first time, but knowing what comes for Jakar specifically down the line in the series.

[1:09:30] Added so much. What, what specifically are you talking about knowing what comes for him versus what adds so much here? What are you talking about? His ability to forgive Londo. It's unthinkable, right? Well, and, and, you know, again, we're watching, we're literally watching foreshadowing. I don't know if that was intentional upon JMS. JMS is a good enough writer right now. I'm saying yes, fully intentional that what he's showing us here is a glimpse of what's going to, what it's going to take for Jakar to be able to forgive Londo. This it's the same process he has to go through. I cognitively understand something. It's going to take longer for my heart to line up. Yeah, exactly. And maybe that's the message with stuff like that. Guys, it is okay to cognitively understand something and have your heart be in a different spot and to take the time to let those who come into alignment before you take action or move forward. But don't stay there. Don't live there. Process. You've got to do the work. Process it. Yeah. Move. Yeah. Go. Yeah. There's motion and then there's movement, right? You need to move through it, not just have the motion around it. Well, Brent, this week, the responsibility of adding this episode to our objectively correct, immutable ranking of all the episodes of the third season of Babylon 5 falls upon you. I'm not quite sure where to go on this. I am going to go kind of in the middle. In this one, I'm going to start with number eight. Number eight's A Day in the Strife. Number seven, Voices of Authority.

[1:10:51] And number six, we have Seek Transit Vir. Five, Passing Through Gethsemane. And the number four spot, an episode that was very germane to this one, Dust to Dust. Where, Brent, does Ship of Tears land in this? All right, here's where I'm struggling right now. I'm going to put this one above Sick Transit Veer. Everything below that, I think, is just, this is a better episode than everything that's underneath that. Okay. I love sick trends. I think it's a great episode. It's just not there. Okay. Then I look at passing through guests. I mean, we're going to, we're going to work up the levels here. Okay. And find out where we're going to stop. Cause I think I know where this is going to land. And it feels weird to me. I admit I'm having a hard time placing this above passing through guests enemy. Yeah.

[1:11:31] Mostly because I think you and I have such a high opinion of that episode, particularly from our first watch. I think we maintain a high, uh, uh, respect for that show. But I think we also realized that maybe it's not necessarily as poignant or as I'll use your word from just a moment ago, germane to the story of Babylon five, as, as we did necessarily through the first season.

[1:11:54] Although I do, I do agree with you. It does. It does sort of set the tone a lot for the season, but as a whole, a great, great episode. Love that episode. Okay. So let me go. I'm going to, let me play with putting this up a little bit more because now we got the episode dust to dust, love dust to dust. Good episode. what's the first thing you think of when you think of dust to dust i think about uh his dad hanging from the tree what else do you think about and actually it's kind of in that whole sequence what what's the thing of dust to dust what do we always talk about the vision that he has the elevator scene oh that too no that's the elevator scene when the vision happens inside the elevator right no that's conviction no thinking of are you sure convictions has the elevator scene no yep really that's the whole like explosion because the guy's doing the explosives throughout the station that's right that's right that's right for whatever reason i thought all that okay never mind don't worry about that don't worry about the elevator scene still it's the vision yeah it's that whole piece it's just phenomenal phenomenal acting okay what else happens in that episode that's just blow you away phenomenal uh him picking veer up off his feet a couple i don't know bester and garibaldi working together all of that's good but is that better than what we get here.

[1:13:01] I would i would submit for your consideration jeffrey aiken outside of the trilogy messages from earth point of no return and severed dreams this is the next most important episode of the season so far okay in ship of tears because it pulls on previous information it literally sets us up for where we're going all the way to the end of at least the shadow war even a little bit beyond.

[1:13:27] Which I think puts this above dust to dust for me, Jeff. Wow. But I'm struggling because I have such a high respect for dust to dust and passing through Gethsemane that the idea of putting anything above it feels just really, really weird. But I think it's the right thing to do. So this, Jeff, is turning into our new number four. Jeff, if you could remind me, where was this in our first ranking? I have that cued right up. I knew you would. I'm curious where you think it is in the final ranking the first time around. Interludes and examinations is up next war without end is going to be tipped up there walkabout not gray 17 not rock cried out pretty pretty big shadow dancing i don't know but zaha doom's going to be really really big so i'm going to guess this maybe goes down at least another three slots so i'm gonna guess this is around seven eight maybe nine somewhere like that's because i think that's probably where it's going to wind up this time and i'm assuming this is going to be about the same spot so seven eight nine maybe ten it ended the first time at number five what did it really ship of tears at number five point of no return in number four severed dreams at three zaha doom at two and world with war without end One and two at number one. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And what I think I find so fascinating about that and your, your ranking of it is not only was this an entirely different experience the second time around. Yeah. It was still incredible. Yeah. They didn't lose anything. It might've gained. It's pretty, pretty amazing.

[1:14:54] It'll be interesting. So it's, it ended at number five. Okay. The ones that were above that war without end one and two.

[1:15:00] Okay. We'll count that as one fair Zaha doom. Okay. Severed dreams and point of no return. And messages from Earth fell off. It was number six. We split up the trio. We did. That's fair. And it's possible it could happen again. Jeff, I'm going to make a bold prediction. Okay. I'm going to make a bold prediction that War Without End on this next ranking is going to fall, if not completely out of the top five, like really close. All right. Just making a – I don't know. And I'm not going to grease the wheels on it. It'll land where it lands. I'm just making a prediction. I think as incredible as that episode is, as smart as that episode is, I think that episode's going to come down in the ranking this time around. We'll find out here pretty soon. Before we find that out, though, our next episode we're watching, Brent, is interludes and examinations. What do you remember your thoughts were of interludes and examinations the first time around? All right. So we're kind of getting this as evidenced by my thing about the convictions deal. The story stuff is all kind of jumbled to me right now. Like, I remember the beats, you know what I mean? But to go, this was this episode and this was here. Like, it takes a really special episode to be like, that's that episode. And here's what I thought about that episode. Because at this point, we're remembering the beats. Here's what I know happens. This is the episode where Kosh gets killed.

[1:16:17] This is the episode. That causes the Vorlons to lose their ever-loving mind. Kosh to a boogaloo comes in. This is an episode that if you don't have it, the rest of the show doesn't happen. It's a key critical plot point in what happens going forward. And the shift in the Vorlon is so integral. I don't remember what my original thing was, but I can imagine my original response to it was something like, uh-oh, what now?

[1:16:47] That's why I think my original response probably was, because I think that's really where it should be. How about you, Jeff? What do you remember about this episode? The big two things I remember in addition to that are Franklin finally caused that a stim addiction in this one. This is the one where he loses his job. Hey, real quick. I'm sorry. Have we not seen Franklin and his stim addiction be a thing here over the last bunch of episodes? Not much. I feel like that felt like such a much larger thing the first time around. And there was that one episode where he was just shooting up like every five minutes, and he mentioned something to Dylan when they did the uniform thing. But I don't think we've really seen it be a thing over the last – like I couldn't even tell you the last episode we really saw it be a thing. I think we're not watching Franklin with the same critical eye we did the first time around, and so we're not seeing it as much. Probable but yeah it starts that whole thing which will lead us into walkabout shadow dancing and all that stuff for him but the big thing that i remember and what i really loved about this one because i think i remember having mixed feelings about kosh getting killed how it went down all that stuff i remember i i seem to remember being pretty upset by that but what i liked is he visits sheridan as he's dying he comes to him in a vision as david as his dad right and.

[1:18:04] Has has the heart to heart is this the one where we figure out that kosh no no because we saw kosh in the background during the jaquan thing yeah okay this isn't where we figure out that jaquan that jaquan was vorlon yeah we already knew that okay okay this is where we find out that kosh apparently has daddy issues because he always shows up as somebody's dad right or all the people around kosh have daddy issues and he's just capitalizing on that but i remember enjoying this one quite a bit and being somewhat critical of it at the same time. So I'm excited to watch it next week. See what our thoughts are on that one. If it evolves like Ship of Tears did. Thank you for watching this and being a part of our conversation with us. It's the best. We love that you're here.

[1:18:44] Our Council Chambers Tears subscribers get to hang out with us when we record. We've been bringing up some of the things they've shared during this. It's awesome. We'd love for you to be a part of that as well. Just visit our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. There's a link down in the show notes if you want to be a part of this or just have access to all the other cool stuff that we're doing with other properties and things like that. We'd also love if you left a rating and a review. But the big thing you can do, the one thing you can do that will cost you nothing but will make the biggest difference in the world for us is to share this show. Share the show with someone who either loves Babylon 5 or needs to hear some nerds talk about this great show for the first and second times. So with that, Brent, we're going to hang out. I'm Jeff and you are Brent. You were all great. Yes, Brent. What's what's up? Chekhov's Bester? Really? Isn't that... I think that's exactly what it was. He laid... He put it right there. Yeah, but I'm just surprised you didn't say Chekhov's Chekhov. Really, man? For crying out loud. Come on. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.