Sic Transit Vir | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. And Jeff, you know what we did when we were going through our first watch of this? Rated it with deltas and really made a lot of people mad? We did that. We did. Do you know what else we did? What else? We also looked for messages. We did do that. We haven't stopped that. We're looking for messages. We're looking for messages we didn't catch the first time, or maybe messages we've forgotten. We're catching them for a second time. Whatever it is, we are still looking for those sci-fi messages we find in the series. You know, those things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, you have heard that this is Babylon 5 for the second time, which means Jeff and I have gone through the entire series for the first time for ourselves. We did that on our previous episode.

[2:00] Phase of the show, Jeff, I guess. It's not really a different show. It's the same show. But if you guys just scroll back up, you guys can get that. Now, that being said, this is a warning to anyone and everyone out there who has not watched this show for the first time. You need to stop this show right now that you're listening to. Go back and join us in our first watch. That's perfectly fine. That's completely spoiler free. But you don't want to do this because from this point forward anything from any point in the timeline from anywhere in the franchise not just within Babylon 5 but anywhere within the franchise extra canonical in universe canon whatever it's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about so this is your one and only spoiler warning it is time for you my friends to press the go button and leave why are you still here go go Right this week, we're watching Seek Transit Vir for the second time.

[3:03] I remember the first time that we watched this one, I was blown away by, like, I thought this was going to be kind of a fun, you know, this will be some vir thing. He's going to be emperor. It's going to be pretty great. A lot of fun. And holy crud, it took a different tack. But one of the things I really remember out of this one for me was to this point, such a fan of Veer, always have been a fan of Veer, but I thought this was a real backslide for him in his character development and in the advancements that we've been seeing. But overall, I remember really appreciating this episode. Do you remember what you thought about it the first time? I do. I do. But before we go any further, I have to correct something.

[3:49] Our friend Andrew in our council chambers who are joining us live is ripping us a new one right now because we keep mispronouncing it, Jeff. We do. Seek transit weir is how it is supposed to be pronounced. According to Andrew anyway. I don't know if that's right or not, but I'm gonna believe Andrew and I'm gonna go with that. Seek transit weir. In seek transit weir, here's what I remember. This is the Abraham O. Lincolnio thing. Oh yeah, yeah.

[4:13] Which I thought was the dumbest name possible. Abraham O. Lincolio. Like that's about us talking about Giorgio Washingtonian. Like we know who these people are. This is not some person out of history that, that nobody knows. Now, granted, this is Vera's a Centauri pulling a character out of earth history. So maybe it's a little more, just a little more discreet, But still, like, come on, come on. Can we not come up with a better name? That said, I absolutely love the symbolism for what he was doing. And we'll dive into that as we get into the episode. This is also the one with his betrothed. You said you felt like this kind of took him backwards. In my memory, this one actually shoots him forward a little bit. In my memory. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember thinking that about this one. But, Jeff, that's what I think I remember. I know what you remember. Do you now? I do. Actually, I don't know what you remember, but I remember what you said. I have what you said. I got it right here. All right. What did I say? I went back. I listened to our first time episode on this one. And, Brent, you really liked this one. You laughed a lot through the episode, even though it wasn't very comedic. You thought it was.

[5:36] Oh, that sounds like me. Okay. I like this piece, though, because you said it was, you figured on a second, third, fourth watch, we would actually see how good and important this episode is. Oh. So looking forward to today, then. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So we were on very opposite sides on this one. I really wanted to love the episode. Like, I was excited about Sheridan and Delenn almost kissing. But overall, I thought this episode was just a mess. Two step forwards, three steps back for Veer. and I felt just overall it was trying for a lot, but it missed the mark. You had a big question in this one that I don't think ever gets answered, at least not in what we've experienced in the series. Okay. So one of the things that Veer is on tap to do is consummate the marriage. And your question was, does it take one, two, all six? Yeah. When does consummation happen? Okay. I hated, hated the ending on this. No, stop. You can't leave it at that. That's it. We had no answer to it. You're just curious. I'm still curious. I'm asking the community right now. Yeah. What is it? Is it at four?

[6:48] Yeah. At what point does it count? Yeah. Andrew with the answer. It's a very JMS answer. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I hated the ending of this episode so much. I felt like it turned Veer into just a middle school boy going all starry-eyed. Oh this hardcore bigot just gave me a little kiss and so i'm all twitter painted about it which really led us to arguing about veer quite a bit i thought he was just like head over heels over lindisty and just wasn't holding his own you felt that he's coming from a place where he's in over his head he's outnumbered he has no safe harbor he's in a situation where he couldn't have really stood up to Londo or Lindesty. And so he was just doing what he had to do to survive and get through it. My guy Veer, man. He's doing what he has to do. We were really upset with Ivanova.

[7:47] In this one were we uh we went off for a good chunk of time so she talks to veer privately and veer shares a lot of his abraham olinconi stuff yeah and then londo shows up and she straight up throws him under the bus oh veer's doing all this stuff the most important thing that came out of this episode though and i have a note to put this link in our show notes so i'm saying it here to remind myself but this episode really deals with racism and bigotry in a in a very direct way which led to us referencing the best episode of beam me up a star trek podcast which is far beyond the stars yeah yeah it's it's i still maintain to this day it is the single most important podcast episode i have ever done in the now thousands of episodes that i have produced yeah it's uh that one stands above above the rest it's incredible i'm telling everybody like i'll put the link in the in the show notes listen to it it's it's a it's a perspective changing and for some people potentially a life-changing uh episode and and it's not me by the way i just want to be really clear.

[8:50] This is not self-promotion on my part no it is it is not me it's somebody else yeah you and you and matt did a beautiful job of really just getting out of the way on that one thank you yeah it was excellent very well done and something everyone needs to listen to especially coming off the subject matter of this one but that's what i got out of this one uh you scoured the web for things that joe michael straczynski may have said about this episode you got anything.

[9:19] Oh we've got a few we've got a few it's not a ton this is this isn't you know severed dreams or anything like that but there there is some stuff jeff originally this episode in the next one a late delivery from avalon were intended to be shown in flip-flopped order this was supposed to be late delivery and next week was supposed to be this particular one but they wound up flipping them for two reasons. One, after Ceremonies of Light and Dark, they needed something lighter. And we all know late delivery from Avalon...

[9:45] Isn't just just isn't that light like the first 20 minutes of it or so are but the back half just no also michael york is the guest star now for all the ways that i will decry that particular episode i will fully admit michael york is a huge get he's a big time guest star and it just so happens that when these two episodes were airing the second of the two weeks was sweeps week so they wanted to put the michael york guest star episode in during sweeps week which makes all the sense in the world. Also, according to JMS, he wrote them so they could actually be shown in any order. There was no correct order. It's just, this is the way they were first going to do it. And then they flipped flopped it. That makes sense. Now, as to the title, seek transit. We're you, my friend have since our first episode, if I remember correctly.

[10:31] Really referenced and talked about the Latin, the Catholic meaning of this. Sic transit gloriais mundi. And that means? There goes the beautiful world or something like that. Yeah, that's it. But according to JMS and according to our friend Andrew, who took Latin, I guess, the actual translation of sic transit vir translates to thus passes the man. I guess vir in Latin is man. Okay. I had no idea. I didn't know that. I'm not a Latin person. I'm just going by what JMS and now two people have confirmed for me. So two very smart people that we have a lot of respect for. There we go. There we go. JMS says, Jeff, and this is where I find your interpretation of Vera's progress in this story a little interesting. Although we do know sometimes JMS intends for one thing and it hits us very, very differently, which means I'm also really excited to see how this may or may not change for you here on the second viewing. But here's what he says. This is an episode of transition for Veer. Specifically, it's where he becomes a man. Okay. Thus passes the man. It is meant both, the title is meant both as a pun and something that is accurately describing what happens in the episode. Veer takes on a new level of responsibility.

[11:51] He, you know, he kind of steps into manhood, so to speak, in this episode. So even if that's not what we interpret it as, I want to be looking at it through those eyes to see what JMS was trying to say. And I think I know where he's going with that. I'm going to try not to interpolate my expectations on top of that. But I think I know where he's going, and so I'll be interested to look at this episode through that thing. Yeah, it makes me think about like there's kind of –, if i remember right kind of i mean there's the londo and veer story which is really tied around.

[12:23] The abraham lincolni stuff we see jokey mcjokerson for the first time i think this is where he earns the nickname because he tells the joke about the narn i think we've seen him before now yes but like this is where he becomes jokey mcjokerson oh okay fair enough yeah because this is where he talks about the how many narns does it take to it's either what's what he says what's scarier than a room full of angry narns or something like that he's like one narn with the key yeah yeah or something like that yeah maybe it's not in this one it was just like this one has the door opening to a whole bunch and i forget what it is but it's it's part of the jokey mcjokerson canon all right overall the story of jokey mcjokerson that's that's a podcast exclusively by bad nerds that's an episode for us to dive into but uh but like i feel like there's that story for veer and then there's the lindesty story for him and i can totally see this story the whole narin piece and whatever being that in my memory it's the lindesty story where it's just like oh dude bad look man bad look yeah yeah we'll see.

[13:26] We'll see. Jeff, you know how in literature you have character archetypes? Yeah, absolutely. You've got the hero. You've certainly got the villain. The prophet is one of the main characters. Have you ever heard of the type of character, the archetype, God's fool? God's fool. No. God's fool. So God's fool is the character in literature that presumably is rather inept or has no business making it through. But yet somehow they manage to survive everything. They make it through everything. Sounds a little bit like Veer. JMS refers to Veer as his God's full character for this series. Now, if you understand what that means, and JMS is saying this in real time, then, spoiler, Veer is going to make it all the way to the end. Yeah. Which, spoiler, Veer makes it all the way to the end. And beyond.

[14:14] Yeah. Yeah, that he does. Now, I mentioned earlier about the accent. Let's talk about the Centauri accent. All right. This is the first. I found this actually rather interesting. Because it is a wildly inconsistent accent. It is certainly wildly inconsistent. But, you know, like Rifa certainly has his little thing. And then Londo is all over. He is the guy, right? Veer doesn't really have much of an accent. No. But several of the other, you know, major Centauri do and some don't. To that effect, JMS says this, talking about the Centauri accent. No, not everyone on Centauri Prime has the accent. We don't all have the same accent here on Earth. Why would they have the same accent there? He says the one that we're hearing primarily is one that is really left over from the old world. And it is one that is put on by the royal court. It's something that you, they, it's just the way they talk at the royal court. And since our interactions are with people like Londo and refund, Jokey McJokerson and several of these others, that also explains why like Cartagio, when he comes in. Kind of has a little bit of a thing, but he's also, you know, Cartagio is like, he's going to go short hair. Yeah. all this sort of stuff and he talks to dead heads he does his shadow shadow cabinet or whatever he's got yeah shadow cabinet.

[15:31] There are a few other things but i do want to save those for the episode itself as we go through so jeff with that speaking of the episode let's go through it yeah i'm excited to watch this one especially with the new lenses that you've just provided what's going to happen next is we're going to pull the episode up we're going to watch it right here we'll react in real time we'll pause we'll talk about messages we'll talk about our observations our reactions things like that and you get to be a part of that with us while we do it if you're watching us on youtube you're going to see the edited out reaction video kind of style that you see on on the youtube out there if you want access to the full the unedited version of this we post that uh almost a week ahead of when it hits youtube or the audio pieces on our patreon page at patreon.com slash bad.

[16:22] Nerds and if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app not the video platform totally cool we got you we're gonna hear the audio from that you will hear the pieces of the episode that relate to whatever we're talking about because we don't want you to miss out on that conversation and we're not going to rehash it at the end because why no one wants to hear us do that it's no good it's better it's better when we just do it right right then and there but we'll also include this the second half where we talk about the messages the rankings and all that sort of stuff so So, Jeff, in the words of my friend Rafiki, with an accent, he says, it is time. It is. It is time. Accessing file.

[17:03] That was very mystical, magical with the chimes in the music. So I noticed the lack of earth force. Oh, I remember this. Good morning. Let's take a look at the manifest. Ankles. Hello. I kind of see why the Puritans had a thing against them. Those are quite provocative. Shoulders, man. I don't know if that's a wig or not, but her hair looks so healthy and fantastic. I'm a little bit distracted by it, actually.

[17:43] I've never woken up screaming like that have you yeah you have like if i'm falling sometimes in a dream and you get that like i get the shake but i don't like wake up sometimes i will very rare maybe a handful of times but more than her still sleeping on one side of the bed and i'm in the Leaving a space for Talia. It's like setting an extra place at the table. It's going to be yours one day, Veer. And he knows that right now. That's why he's touching it, so... There you go!

[18:13] I was just looking, really. I didn't touch a thing. Maybe the drapes a bit, but there was this large flying thing that I tried to, you know, squat. The Emperor has just finished reviewing your reports from Minbar. He asked me to convey his compliments on your hard work. A poor guy. Some parts of it do read as if they were written by Ambassador Malari. He advised me on a few things. I thought as much. He's like, knock that off. Mundo belongs to the old school. He thinks we must be protected from the truth. These are perilous times. We must have accurate information about what other worlds are doing. You would do well to follow your own judgment in future. Thank you, Minister. Well, I'll let you go back to your room now. Why not just go straight to the bar, right? Yeah. Oh, I heard a new joke. Oh. What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry gnar? Dude, he's incredible. This is... I don't know. What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry gnar?

[19:17] One angry gnar with the key.

[19:25] Veer's like, I got to get out of here. I'm like, jokey mcjokerson he is now that's the moment he becomes my favorite centauri like he's like my favorite pet centaur oh my word that was great foreshadowing too yeah he literally walks into a room of angry narn it's such a great cold open because for all we know right now what we have seen is veer and jakar and jakar dead dead yeah right dead and now he's surrounded by him for all we know he's gonna get refund and we don't even know what that means yet the first time he's got a bunch of gnar just chilling on satari pride i'm guessing are those are those ones that are like free like he freed them from prisons or something there i think so yeah or he's transferring them to work prisons i forget what it was but like oh that's they're supposed to be going to work prisons but he's redirecting them something like that that's the that's the fake thing that he's doing yeah he's shindler he's shindler's shindler's listing it is really what he's doing here yeah and ivanova has issue with how he's doing it that comes up it's like well you're saying this he's like yeah or they die like this is what i can do.

[20:36] I get the one where your teeth are breaking off or falling out and you wake up going ah oh yeah i know that one you're lost in a maze somewhere that's good you see the two patches on each arm you got the ranger on one side and the babelon five shield on the other i dreamt that i walked into cnc totally unprepared for my work yeah i'm interested in a little uh dime store psychoanalysis now i'm just burying myself as a preface it really is like the way they're featuring the uniform here subtle but really important one of these dreams puts you on unfamiliar territory all right so we're talking 13 years we're both career military that means we define who we are by what we do we left all of that behind when we broke away from earth even i've already dealt with all that i've.

[21:17] Consciously but from what you were saying subconsciously you're still trying to work it all through you don't know where you fit anymore how to define yourself you're feeling vulnerable lost and exposed jeff yeah let us pull up a conversation that we have not infrequently on this show because it comes up quite frequently yeah let's talk about where the source of your identity comes from oh yeah the idea that if it comes from your job or it comes from your role role, you're really putting yourself in a very dangerous spot because that job and that role could change at a moment's notice. And then who are you? As it has right here. And I would encourage everybody, you are more than your job. You are more than your title. You're more than your paycheck. And your value and your worth as a human being is not wrapped up in those things in the least. Nope. Not even a little bit. It's all perfectly obvious and completely understandable. I suppose. I just hate waking up in the middle of the night, not knowing who I am or where I am or even what i am you know what's interesting with that too so like let's fast forward into season four when earth civil war and avanova is leading she's captaining the white star and she gets on thing and she's like i am susan avanova daughter of and she just lays it out and it's like so here she's like i don't even know who i am i didn't pick up on this the first time then she does like she finds out who she really is yeah your subconscious just needs to work it all through Hey, it could be worse. You could be having dreams where you're showing up to work naked.

[22:45] You'd be in real trouble.

[22:49] This is really being set up as a comedy episode right now. Oh, speaking of Palmetto Bug. This is the Bug episode. It's the Bug episode!

[23:02] It's amazing what you can do with a swatter and some foley work right although it does sound a little bit like the shadows there's no no relation to the shadows but it does kind of does kind of sound like them if i were him i'd be like i thought the techno mages got we got rid of those bugs what is that statue there in the back yes you can help me it looks like a buddha Two hours ago, two hours ago, I called you. I told you there is a bug. That's the same sword he killed. Jadzo or whatever his name was. Jacob. Yeah. And he's just dulling the blade. Dude, I heard it. Almost sounded like he short his pants. There you see.

[23:49] With a centauri there are more of you yes dude this would have been a great episode to see you are ambassador jane carr come back oh yeah and like kind of let her bring yeah anyone you want me to be come in he's like they just show up at my doorstep now i got it's amazing i'd like to see you tonight oh are you not seeing me now i would think that you see me every time we meet unless i have become translucent in substantial you are radiant nobody has thought to inform that's the right line let me say i'd like to see you in a different light okay for instance over dinner is she really just being yeah dumb no she's or is she just full-on flirting this is full flirting And she knows exactly what she's doing. That look on her face. Tomorrow we may be involved in another crisis, another battle. This may be the last chance we'll get for a while.

[24:48] There's a great lesson there. Great lesson. Yeah. This isn't a message. This is just a life lesson. I was just having this conversation with my son earlier today and involved some stuff with my wife. And I'm not going to go into the details of personal what's going on. But there's an old adage, Jeff, never put off for tomorrow what you can do today. Don't delay. When you have an opportunity to do something that you may not have the opportunity to do later, go ahead and do that thing. Because the thing that you would have done now, guess what? You can do it later. I'm not encouraging anybody to live in a dirty house, but if you need to pick up your house a little bit, or I don't know, go see your kid's ball game, leave the stuff in the house for later, go see your kid's ball game. If you get, you know, or go do, you know, go, go on that date with your spouse or your partner or whatever, go. Go do the thing, because this other stuff that seems like it's really important, like we got to get it all done, like right here, right now, really, really fast, that stuff will be here when you get back.

[25:50] Do the things that may not actually give you an opportunity to do later. And I mean that in every aspect of life. Take advantage of the time you have now. And here's the cool thing. If you do it now and then you get your other stuff done again later, guess what? You might actually have the opportunity to do it twice. Right? Or three times or ongoing. Or you may miss the opportunity. You may not see something that's going – because that's the thing. You could do the thing you're trying to do now and save something for later, but then something can bump that out of the way. And then you don't get to do it at all. And here's John going, hey, listen, we may not have this opportunity for a long time. So let's do it. Do we have dinner tonight? I'm going to make this a priority and we're going to prioritize this tonight over everything else that we have going on. I love it. It's good stuff. It's kind of like Wayne Gretzky said, right? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. There you go. There you go. So don't, you know, and for everybody out there who wants to, you know, stop procrastinating starting tomorrow, good on you. Tomorrow never comes, right? That's not according to Garth Brooks. If tomorrow never comes. All right. Home, we have an old saying. He does it better. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Yep. Yeah, that's a little too extreme. That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's very depressing. Turn down for dinner. Well, we cannot have that, how can we? Oh, I love how in they are! Look at him! Oh, look at that. Find you a person who looks at you like Sheridan watches Delenn walking off.

[27:18] Do that. I have a surprise for you. A surprise? You can come out now. Is it his family that we got told is going to come at some point? Her smile is very wild. Hello, Veer. Expressive. This is my glorious, Veer. Your wife has come all this way just to see you. Wando, I'm not married. Not yet, but in a few days you will be. And if you ask me, she is far too good for you. Wando, I'm not married. Say hello. Her name is Lindesty. And you'll be spending the rest of your life with her. Much in the same way he spends the rest of his life with his four wives. Right, yeah, every day. Don't worry about it, dear. He gave her the little... How can we be married? I've never even met you before. It was all arranged through your uncle and my mother, the Lady Drusilla. I know that in your face I see a gentleness and a kindness of spirit. While I was waiting for you, Ambassador Malari told me everything about you. Oh, don't... He's like, what? and I told her the good parts. It was a very short conversation.

[28:26] That's good. Dude, that's a part. I'm balding right before my eyes. I promise you, when we cross beneath the swords and bowels, it will be fine. Look at me, Veer. Come on, I'm so lovable. I'm gonna show you how lovable I am. We've had a lot more narns than usual come through here lately. Most of them escape in the homeworld. Far out of the sea of a problem. The more they can get away from the Centauri, the better. Oh, hey, I agree. Just that I was going over their papers of transit, and I noticed the name of the Centauri who approved them. Abraham Olin Coney? You gotta be kidding me. Since when is that a Centauri name? Yeah, well, that was my reaction, too. Both of these two people should recognize this name. well zach did tell us back in i was the morden episode with sheridan locking him up episode he said i didn't pay a lot of attention in history class rachel said that to garibaldi it doesn't matter you know who leonardo da vinci is sort of you know who william the conqueror was you know who leaf erickson was i also read paid attention in you you know who the pharaohs were you know who king henry the eighth was you know who abraham lincoln was a lot happened between then and here You know who John Lennon was. Not the Beatle. Wait, who is it? What was his name? Not John Lennon. What was his name? Lennon? Huh? Lennon? I don't know Lennon's first name. What was his first name? Yeah. This is not John. It wasn't John. It is not John.

[29:46] You know who I'm talking about, though. The guy that took over after the Romanovs got killed. You know who the Romanovs are. Yeah. Because we paid attention in school. Zach did not. And we saw the movie. Yeah. We all saw Anastasia, right? If you didn't, oh boy, sir. Is that probably Vladimir Vladimir Lennon Vladimir which is not John your lips fell right off there sir whose office did these come through.

[30:13] Thank you katarina do you think it will take you very long to love me okay are we getting the feeling that she's just a ditz hard to say i've always considered time to be very important i brought it up in our first watch but it bears repeating here the seminal classic coming to america you're on the an island nation of zamunda it's not an island nation as i always say say i don't think it's an island it's not but it just sounds great to say that the island nation of Zamunda. And Eddie Murphy's guy meets his bride-to-be and he's like hey, what do you like to eat? And she's like, whatever you like. This is totally, totally out of that. What if I told you to jump on one foot and bark like a dog?

[31:01] I've often thought we are given time in a multitude of tiny boxes so small that when we need them most, they're nowhere to be found veer's like you should rush things you're nuts i'm not suited to you let me be a fever from which you never recover and our nights an anarchy of pleasure an anarchy of pleasure she's literally only trained to be like a letter to the penthouse letter thing that's all she can do dude veer has no game whatsoever because he's like actually a good guy well if kisses could kill that one would have flattened several small towns. Fear. Our marriage That's a good lie. The ceremony is just for show. Everything that must be done has been done. If you send me away I will still be your wife in name if not in fact. And I think you will find me a most powerful, A most pleasant fact. Dude, she is throwing herself. Oh, look at that. Dude, he went opened mouth at her. Oh, my word. Mr. Cotto. He's like, if you're saying what I think you're saying, let's go.

[32:09] Engaged. Okay. For the record, they did not consummate it right there. I don't think so. No. They did not cut the scene. And he's walking a little lighter right now. I don't think because he actually, this is, I think, where we learn. Because he tells Ivanova something. He's like, no, no, no. We have six or something. I think this is where we learn that. Not that they have six, but that it takes that. You're saying these narns go voluntarily? Absolutely, yes. Well, then why the forgery, the fake names, the falsified transit papers? There are many centauri who would rather see the narns suffer back home than be given comfortable quarters too close to centauri look at his face like the real compassion he's got for this, yeah this is a great steven first episode i hope that's the right kind of table jms answers a question does avanova and ultimately sheridan really think that veer is is doing bad stuff with all of these narns after all this is veer it's not uh joseph mingle i guess is the person who, what is it? Mengele. Is that how you say it? I think so, yeah. He was the person, I guess, responsible for the, in Hitler's administration for all the concentration camps and the rounding up stuff, right? Not a great guy. He said, you know, do they really, well. I think the Slayer song Angel of Death is about him.

[33:23] JMS's response really to all of this is while they may not think that Veer is personally doing all of these things. They do think that he is expediting the transfer of Narns off world for bad purposes. Okay. That he's facilitating the sell of these folks. And you might think that Veer is someone who couldn't do this. No, not Veer. Not Veer. Veer's a great guy. He could totally do it. He says, but most of the Nazis who sent the Jews to die weren't Yosef Mingala or whatever. They were processed, the Jews were processed with numbers from behind wireframe glasses. The people were quiet. Sometimes they were cheerful individuals and probably had wonderful wives and great children. The greatest evil can often wear a benign, smiling, and affable face. And don't forget, people in this show can change. Just look at Londo. I like that a lot. We talk about that in this series a lot. Intersections in real time comes to mind first for me. But we talked about that. It's not the person. It's not President Clark. It's the people who just show up to work every day and do the stuff or the ones in the middle who are like truly power sick and use the person's other horrible stuff to do more horrible stuff. But yeah, real evil. Has spectacles in a briefcase and just shows up to work punching a clock every day. I just called myself real evil.

[34:46] Didn't come for the decor. Well, I hope you didn't come for the decor. I came for you. Unlike Mr. Garibaldi. Woo hoo. I am not exactly a gourmet cook. I like that picture over there.

[34:59] Oh yeah. It's a favorite of mine too. Pro tip for anybody who's ever trying a new recipe. Hand it to the person and go, this is a new recipe. I've never made it before. If it sucks, just tell me. It's okay. Give them permission. Don't sit there and be like, hey, I made this thing. Isn't it great? No, just tell them. When I get brave in the kitchen and I'm like, I'm going to try this new thing. And it's a real stretch. I always have a backup plan. Like, hey, if I get this done, it's no good. I got pizza ready to come. Or I've got this in the freezer I can bust out. Like, yeah. Don't put that on somebody, man. Although it spoils the comedy of the moment, but still.

[35:36] So, how is the fly? Just right. Liar liar jms oh jms himself confesses yes the minbari do lie we have established that the minbari can and do lie when it's done to save the honor of another here delin is saving face for sheridan like the truth would actually be more caring for you yeah did your meeting with the commander go well i'd like to know more about what you do so that i can be a good wife to you, I knew if I followed you long enough, I would find a mark. I have the Shankar. I like the Pachmarat just randomly coming in like, eat no doubt of there, man.

[36:20] He really did like it. Are we seeing that on video cameras? I hope we will. You're on a date, dude. So, Brent, to your earlier point, you got your moment, right? This is it. Tomorrow, everything's going to blow up and go to hell. You have your moment right now. So they just called and said, hey, there's an assault going on. It's near you. Also, we have a security force. I get that he's like, hey, someone's getting hurt. I want to go do something about that. That's great. You just made a choice. Also, that security force, they're going to have the right kind of protective gear. They're going to have the right kind of self-defense weapons. They're going to have all this stuff able to – you're just going to go down there and be like – Stop. Probably get yourself hurt. So –, just like that and like that dude sherry can take a punch man that's a shun kong.

[37:16] Hey back to the good ppg and veer had no explanation for the attack, Well, maybe it was just a random terrorist attack on a Centauri. It's not like they need a reason these days. I don't think it gets answered in the episode, but my theory was and is. Veer wasn't the target for that. Lindesty was. No, it absolutely was Lindesty. And I think they tell us that later. Okay. He's following Lindesty. Just before he came at them, the last time he yelled, Sean Carr. It's a non-blood oath. Exactly, meaning it's a personal grudge. You didn't see the episode, John, but there's a one called Deathwalker. We learned all about the Sean Carr. See what you can dig up. Pull it out of the archives. You can watch it. I just don't understand it besides i'm fine oh hey delan i hear that you're upset that i got up and left and i understand that i have been dressing myself for a long time i felt this.

[38:03] Give her some validation oh look at this look at this it happened here was with a woman apparently there to be married soon i'm just gonna call it out they almost kiss here but what she's doing right now my opinion is miles more intimate than kissing like this is a she's taking care of him yeah you know yeah there's a scene in the first season of star trek discovery um where uh two dudes colber and uh i don't remember the the the medical dude they're married stamets um yeah stamets is the engineer colber is the okay there's the medical doctor yeah but anyway stand in the mirror brushing their teeth together and it's like to me that was that's the most intimate explicit scene ever shown on television because like you might meet with somebody and you know hook up or whatever you might get six but like standing there like brush your teeth that's kind of a gross thing dude next to somebody must be the shortest courtship on record she just got here yesterday the air recycling system may be as you say in the air i'm not gonna pause it but jns did tease the kiss here and he kind of went in on on people asking him about it he's like me ETs? Never. Stay tuned, is all he would say. Captain, I... You...

[39:21] That is the second time Ivanova has interrupted him in the middle of a thing. I've got a serious problem with fear. What makes you think I would know anything about this? Well, for starters, it's the kind of thing that only you could think of, Lando. Second, there's only one logical reason why another Narn would declare a Shankar and try and kill him. Revenge. Yeah, see, they've got the Shankar placed in the wrong spot. It's against Lindussey because of something her dad did. According to the transit and relocation files, every one of them, all 2,000 Narns, all of them are dead. There's 2,000 murders, Veer. No wonder the Narns are after you and anyone close to you.

[39:56] See not here yeah you got you had it right in your head because that's what it was, my only regret is that i couldn't have saved more of them there you go get it veer he's a hero, hero and then he's gonna get what you have done to me here i was the one who pushed to get you this position position you have abused if this comes out the scandal would hurt both of us now i will have to deal with this fear and with you just one thing if ver is telling the truth and None of these Narns have been killed. Why did one of them attack you? They're Narns, Captain. They don't need a reason for murder. Not against you. They have one already. Yeah, I agree. Delenn in the chat. Hate how Londo makes all this about him. You're troubled. Yeah, this is part of the Londo is just a piece of garbage. Yeah. No redemption. Can you tell me what is troubling you? It has to do with the Narns. Ah, that's all they are, you know. Trouble. They're simply inferior. It's genetics. Don't know if jms says anything about this but i'm going to say it on behalf of jms uh just substitute narn for another word that starts with the same letter and this is what we were saying in the 20s 30s 40s 50s what they're saying now the 18 18 was i seven the the the 16s the 17s the 18s the 19s or the 20s which which one are you talking about all of them.

[41:18] That's pretty sad yeah and not wrong they're lazy hence my original conclusion the sooner they're dealt with the better forever like if you're right here he's just like okay if they've caused you okay here's my question here's my question in no way shape or form am i absolving linda steve anything she's saying here is how much responsibility does she bear for this though because we we spent earlier today talking about how much of a ditz she is how how much and everything we have learned about her to this point has been her grooming. She has been groomed to become the wife of someone and to just lay down and be whatever for that person, right?

[41:58] This kind of attitude, this kind of belief doesn't come from one's own mind. This is stuff that's built into you. This is stuff that is taught to you. This is stuff that's taught to you as fact. And frankly, When you don't have much interaction with people of that sort and ilk, you have no reason to disbelieve it. So while she is a grown ass adult and she is fully responsible for her own words and her own attitudes and her own actions, how much is she actually like, not responsible, that's not the right word, but like, how could she be anything other than this? Like, this is what she's been taught. I have two thoughts that come to mind. One is from our first time viewing, we talked about this a bit in the messages section. We talked about when you have an opportunity to learn and do better and you choose not to, then you're complicit. Like it's, it's all at that point. The other thing that comes to mind for me is you and your experience growing up in a time and a place that carried a lot of these exact same attitudes.

[42:59] You though were given opportunity to meet other people, to hear their stories. That's evidence of what we talked about earlier, that episode of beam me up linked in the show notes, go listen to it. And you did. And you changed your view. There are people given that same opportunity.

[43:15] Now, I don't know that Linda C has ever been given the opportunity, but I still, I, I, because, because to your point, Jeff, while you consider those words, okay, you're right. I was given lots of opportunities. I was raised in an urban town as the second largest town in the state. Great city, great town. I've also had the opportunity to go off to university in another state.

[43:34] Meeting people from all over the country and literally all over the world. I've had the opportunity to live overseas for a number of years, not just go visit for 10 days, but to live and work overseas for a number of years. I've had opportunities to travel and to talk to and to introduce myself to people. I've had opportunities to sit down and speak with people who are of different sexual orientations, people who are of different gender. I don't know what the word is, gender identities, then what they have at birth versus where they are now. And to be able just to ask people who've been really nice, who've like, ask your questions, answer. And they've let me ask those questions, all these foolish, bigoted questions because I didn't know any better. But then I think of my niece and my nephew. My niece and my nephew, whom have never gotten out of the mountains. They've not had the same opportunity that I've had. All they have is what their parents, unfortunately, my brother and his wife and their grandparents and all of that, what they've taught them. You know, now my niece and nephew are, you know, in their thirties. Yeah, they're both in their thirties now, you know, and with their own families and stuff like that and continuing traits. And but they've never had a chance to get out. And like I think of them like they are a product of their upbringing.

[44:57] What else could they be? And they've not had the same opportunities. Now, I'm not absolving them. I am not saying, sure, it's fine for them to be racist. It's fine for them to be whatever. I just don't know how we could expect anything different. You know what I mean? Like when I look at Linda Stee and I hear what she's saying, and here's my whole point with this. Everything she is saying is reviling. It is disgusting. It's revolting. And I immediately in my mind and in my heart cast and pass judgment upon her for.

[45:30] Perpetuating these things but i have to ask myself is that right has is she a product of her environment in which she has grown up and she's not had the same opportunities that say veer has had right because we saw veer kind of like this a little bit in the very early days but he got to work with kodath with netoth with jakar like he's known talon he's known these people Lanier. They have drinks together and Lanier can't drink. Like he's had opportunities that Lendisty has never had. You know what I hear you saying? Lando, I'm sorry. Lando has had opportunities that Lendisty has never had. We could hold Lando responsible for some stuff. Londo is intentionally evil. Right. Linus-y, unintentional. I think what I'm hearing you say is, because more than one thing can be true at the same time, where she's an absolute bigot, racist, awful everything, and what else could she possibly be? Exactly. And I think what it comes down to is the opportunity for it.

[46:33] I heard once some time ago that one of most national problems that happen in any country are the result of people not moving. So like in the United States, they say that most people have never traveled more than 100 miles away from where they were born. That's crazy. They live in this tiny little bubble. And as you just talked about, like in those bubbles, there's a belief system that's not only taught, but it's reinforced. Both positively and negatively, if you believe otherwise. And so if you never go anywhere else, I know like myself, I've not considered myself to be outwardly racist or anything or, but a hundred percent, like I was born in the seventies, there were things programmed into me, but I went to visit other countries, man, my view of stuff changed like that, you know, that's just visiting, you got to live there. What it makes me think of at a larger scale. And this might sound like it's minimizing. It's not, this is not an apples to apples comparison.

[47:32] We grew up believing that we had to eat low-fat foods, right? Oh, I got to get the reduced-fat this, the low-fat that, because... Because you are what you eat, and so you eat fat, so you'll be fat, right? You're going to be fat, right? And I mean, it makes sense, right? If you eat fat, it's going to be fat. Turns out, sugar is the problem, right? But you know what still is on the shelves and is still selling in massive quantities? Low-fat this, reduced-fat that. Objectively, as a society, we know that's BS, right? There's healthy fats. You need fat. All these things. Yet we still buy it even though we know that's a choice. That makes you dumb. This, Londo, Londo, Lindesty, Londo, intentionally evil, Lindesty, evil and a victim. And just to be clear, we are making an assumption about Lindesty's upbringing and her past that perhaps she has not actually had this. And if she has, then this whole conversation is off the table. But let's just assume for the sake of argument, she hasn't. And, you know, I think that begs the question of we look at a person like this with derision and disgust. But isn't there also a bit of pity to look at a person like this? And do we do we not have a responsibility to at least give Linda Stee an opportunity? Now, Linda C is a grown ass adult. She can make her own choices. And she when she comes face to face with having these experiences.

[48:57] What is she going to do with it? I think that's the reason why I hesitate to just, and in real life, when I meet people like Linda Stee, because I know a lot of people like Linda Stee, I'm related to a lot of people like Linda Stee. It's why I have a hard time throwing the book at them and not just completely writing them off, if I'm being real honest. You know? If you're doing something that you shouldn't do, it's whatever, and I get in your face and yell at you and call you stupid because you're doing this thing, is that going to motivate you to change the thing? Or is it maybe going to make you double down and do more of it? As opposed to bringing somebody in, right? We have conditioning and programming happening right now. If that person believes other than I do, they're wrong, they're evil, and I need to remove them from my life and not interact with them whatsoever. And there are cases where that is 100% the right thing to do when you have to protect yourself. Absolutely. But as a general rule.

[49:57] That's just stealing those beliefs. Oh, look, they're treating me this way because they're scared of the truth. I know what's going on. I'm in this community that has told me these things, has reinforced these things. Shoot, I've seen it in action, right? That one person who looks like this showed up and they did this thing. So, I mean, that's the only person I've ever seen like that. So it must be true. And then we ostracize them as opposed to being like, come here, let me show you this thing. I think it was last week I'd said it or the week before St. Francis and his quote, you always sometimes use words. When we talk about most organized religions, they have a whole mission around converting people or whatever. Many of them, not all. Me beating you over the head with Bible verses or whatever is not going to get somebody to convert. But me like inviting you into my home and feeding you and clothing you and hearing you and caring for you and doing cool things. And then that person being like, oh, that person is this religion. Maybe there's something to that, right? There's more you're going to convert. What's the saying? You attract more bees with honey, you know, or whatever. Attracts more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's something to that. Now, again, I want to be explicitly clear that, and that's being repeated in the chat as well, I think we're all in agreement here. It's not okay. It's not excused. It's not a free pass for Lindesty or someone in this situation to...

[51:24] Have these views and beliefs, and it's understandable why they do. And the question comes to those of us who have been enlightened. Is that the right phrase? To those of us who have come through that process. There you go. There you go. What is our responsibility back towards these people? If I were Veer in this situation, now, if I were Veer, I don't have the social skills to do what I'm about to suggest, but I wouldn't be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I disagree. That's wrong. I would say, that's interesting that you say that. Can you tell me about a time that you saw this thing? Like, tell me more about this. I'm curious. My experiences have been different than yours. And I'm curious how your experiences have helped you, made you see things this way. I would approach it with curiosity and ask questions and hope that in that conversation, they would be like, well, I mean, I've never seen it, but my dad, this, well, tell me about that. Yeah. I wouldn't be that nice about it. But you know what? And I'm not saying this because it's me. I'd have a higher success rate. Maybe. Maybe. Let's find out. Let's go.

[52:26] We're going to conduct a scientific research study. Jeff, you go do it this way. Brent, you go do it this way. Let's line up a bunch. We'll compare notes at the end and see how many minds we have changed by the end. I'll bet you we come back with the same number. Facebook Marketplace. Looking for racists for social experiment. Oh, my God. Hey, are you a racist? Do you think that you're better than the other race? Are you a member of the supreme race?

[52:51] Contact us. We're not ice, but we will. He will quiz you right oh man good point though i'm glad we paused and had this conversation i mean yeah it by the way if i'm veer there's no way i'm marrying this person oh i'm out i'm out at this point yeah but maybe i can help this person they're also a grown adult they have to i mean you're responsible for your own thing like you are responsible but well i think that's another point too like this is pretend they're not married this is their first app date you know or whatever i'm dating i'm on a first date with someone like this i am literally just like they finish her sentence and i'm like okay thanks hey um thanks for your time yeah i'm out i'm not gonna i'm not gonna invest time i'm not gonna argue i'm not gonna question i'm like i'm out but if this is someone i know right or it's a work relate if there's some like actual relationship and that's where i'm gonna push back on you jeff where i think that is absolutely the wrong response yeah to just be like hey listen i'm not investing time i'm dipping because you believe that that's where I think you have a responsibility to that person to at least expose them to something and give them an opportunity. Now, at the same time, you are not responsible for somebody else, right? Yeah.

[54:03] This is okay. Like, but I do like, I do think there's at least a bit of a, of a, of a, I'm going to go back to the word responsibility that for those who have been able to see and, and have a broader view, not to educate the lesser thans, but to at least give them. A grown adult, an opportunity to, to really open their mind. And if they stay closed minded, if they do whatever, Hey, that's on them. That's not you, but at least you gave them an opportunity versus just a.

[54:35] Oh, because, and this is what I find. This is what I find a lot, particularly on social media that when somebody is like, Hey, I don't understand this. Tell me about that. Well, it's not my job to educate you. You know, you're right, but I'm asking and you're the one putting stuff out. So like, help me out here. Like if you're going to do that, then cool. But don't yell at me when I'm, when I'm opening myself up to new, new knowledge. Now that's not what's happening here, but right. I think your pushback makes sense from an idealistic standpoint, but you Brent haven't been out dating and not for a while. Yeah. And I will tell you that, that is not the time nor place nor situation to have that. You need to have social awareness in every situation. If you're just out there and every time someone says a thing, you're like, okay, I'm going to dive in and it's time for me to do the thing. You will be wildly ineffective and you will not, it's not a wise investment of your time and it's not productive overall. In a situation right now that Veer is in, if the marriage thing was off the table, it's not going to help him to push back. It's not going to help her because the marriage thing is on the table. That changes things. Veer should be pushing back. He should be asking the question, But I'm first date at a coffee shop, not the time nor place, not appropriate and not helpful. And this is from, from some experience.

[55:54] Fair enough. I have something for you. Please. We don't have a lot of time. Oh, that's right. All right. You can open your eyes now. It's dark. Lights, gently, please. No, no, you have to say, hey, Siri. Mindestie. I knew you'd be surprised. Now, this is moving from, like, racism and bigotry to just mean hatred. Yes, of course. I saved him for you. I almost didn't. After all, he did intend to kill me. Why did he want to kill you? I saw him on Narn. My father and I went there after the war. You cure future aggression by cutting out that part of the gene pool.

[56:31] Our soldiers would bring them in, ten, twenty at a time, and we put them to sleep. It was more humane than they deserved, really. But Father's always been overly charitable. Sometimes we'd find whole villages where the aggression was just too deeply rooted, and we had to take it all out. This is sick. could see the flames rising up into the night like brilliant flowers embracing the spring now this is where everything that i just said a few moments out the window completely falls apart because she has gotten out she has had her opportunity yep yep yeah okay and not just oh i went to school with some black people or whatever like no no no she was there she saw it she saw villages she saw how they lived she saw all of these things and she made her choices so in linda stee's case all out the window but in the real world examples of what i gave earlier on personal family family i think it still holds and it's worth a good discussion but for the record she had her opportunity she did and she's trash she tripled down like yeah yeah this is beyond redemption except everybody's redeemable yeah i was gonna say i was gonna say it's a tall order but I think and someone said it in the chat earlier I think it was brilliant that, everyone is capable of change and change for the better.

[57:59] But that's a choice they have to make. And right now, Linda Stee is not interested in that choice. Bud's opening and spreading wider. I mean, she's more sick than Brad Dourif's character. Who's the Black Rose killer. Yeah. That must be why they tried to kill me. For you. I hope that's a knife in a sheet. There it is. That's got to be a lot sharper. It still actually looks fairly blunt. It is your right. Now, see, I'm going to tell you what. The hillbilly in me is like, yeah, i'm gonna take that knife and i'm gonna use it on you but not on that yarn right and you deserve it on the line with certain friends because you're right i've got to take stuff out of the gene pool again that's the hillbilly in me right i'm not saying i would actually do that but that you remember that thing i talked about like here's the first response like stuff down and be like no that's not the appropriate response i'm just letting you know that's my first response yeah I sure feel good to think it like, oh, God, we are going to pretend that this entire unfortunate incident never took place. All records will be destroyed. Look at the look that Vera is giving him. He's disgusted. Speak about it to anyone. Do you understand? It's like the audacity. Good. It is my own fault as much as yours.

[59:17] I was foolish in sending you to Mimbar before I had finished your training. This is where some of that programming really hits, that reinforcement that happens within those bubbles. There's a dissonance being created in Veer. And I think that he's aware enough to recognize it and go. But it's like, I did a thing that was good and felt good. And from an objective standpoint, I can say it's good. But he's disappointed in me and mad and upset. Like, these things don't line up. And so I think in those spaces where people try to do different or learn, oftentimes those bubbles are fast to be like, nope, you are wrong and whatever. And they succumb to that dissonance. It's enough confusion for them to be like, well, I guess you're right. Then, okay, I'll go back to my ways. It takes someone like Veer, who's just a very strong character, to say, hmm, I'm actually disappointed that you feel that way, Londo. I'm gonna keep that to myself right now but i'm gonna keep going he um i what i see in veer's eyes when i look at him and i love the way steven first is playing this this is such a great steven first episode he hears everything londo's saying he's not buying a lick of it he knows londo is wrong he knows that what he was doing was right but when londo says this we're gonna pretend like this never happened and veer just looks at him he goes okay i get the feeling that is not an okay of.

[1:00:37] Submission or an okay of I'm I'm gonna now kowtow to you you know at the end of the day we all can only do so much mm-hmm and okay I've done everything I can because he's because what's he gonna do in this moment he's gonna fight back and he's not gonna be able to do anything ever again right.

[1:00:53] No. Okay. At least now he stays as the attache to an ambassador. And who knows what can happen come after this. He's also been told he's going to be an emperor one day. By the way, how much do you think this experience shapes him as an emperor to be? Right. Absolutely. You know, as a man who's going to become the chief architect of Centauri society in one day. Because don't forget, with all of this stuff, Beer is hearing this. He is absolutely disgusted. You can see it in his face. You can see he is disgusted by a person that he has really a great deal of respect for, which I got to tell you, if you've ever talked to somebody that you have a great deal of respect for and everything they're saying just absolutely disgusts you, but you still hold a level of affection and admiration for that person, that's a weird place to be. Like, that'll conflict you. Right. Yep. You know? That's that dissonance I was talking about. It just doesn't line up. It's just, this is whatever. But the thing is, is Veer is not doing what the other Minbari or what the other Centauri ambassador to Minbar did. The other, he just, he noped out. He, nope, I'm out. I'm done. Veer's staying in there. Veer's still batting for the home team.

[1:01:58] Veer's still here, but he's like, but this ain't the way. Like he is able to criticize himself and his own people and not have to defend it. Yeah. In fact, I'll take that a step further. And maybe, maybe this, I don't know. Just walk with me down this and tell me if I'm off base. but okay veer's not actively trying to change anybody veer is actively changing himself he's making choices like he said he's like i had to do something and i was on minbar and this was something i could do he's focused on him and what he can do and the impact he can make and the reverberation of him focusing on him is actually changing other or impacting other people yeah no no that's you know what okay.

[1:02:41] Go back to what we were saying earlier, Jeff, because that's fantastic what you just said. Doesn't veer, don't we hold a responsibility to those who have, are just speaking the stuff that they've been raised in? Okay. You know, the answer, I think if we could just put a bow on that is no, you don't. It's not your responsibility to educate them. It's not your responsibility. What is your responsibility is to change yourself. And in changing yourself, the way you act, the way you speak, the way you move, the way you breathe all of that stuff that becomes the teaching for the other people. If, if they will have eyes to see and ears to hear. Yeah. If they will be open to it, if they're not, there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Yeah.

[1:03:22] But if hopefully, you know, how is it Jeff that you traveled the world and your, your eyes got opened and that impacted you? How is that? You were open because you were open to it. Yes. Yeah. When I went and I've met stuff face to face and I went, oh, this isn't exactly what I believed or what I was taught. Huh. I have two choices in that moment. One, I can write it off and defend it, or I can shut my pie hole and listen and try to learn from it. You know? Yeah. And if I do open my pie hole, it's just to ask a question, not leading somewhere, but actually to receive an answer and learn. And that's how you change folks is by allowing yourself to first be changed. You know, it's, I've talked about it a little bit, it's been quite a while since I've talked about it, but in one of my jobs that I had, I really landed in a spot where I discovered I have a passion for employing people that have intellectual and developmental disabilities and have done a lot of work in that space. And it was, it was hard work because there are a lot of prejudices and biases that people have against.

[1:04:29] You know, people who have IDD that they're not even aware of. Right. I mean, just right. And so in the workplace that was showing up and I had these really great people that were coming in, they were working hard, they were doing good work. And I not, not only wanted to expand employment for them, but I wanted to give them the opportunity to promote and get it, be in leadership roles and like actually really contribute. I never put on trainings. I never got in front of people and said, Hey, uh, this person's just as qualified as you are. You need to give them a chance. All I did was talk to them and publicly like, oh, I mean, I'll go ask this person, this thing, and just treated them as an equal, you know, and just modeled that. I just did it. And a lot of it is I have positionality, right? Because of my position, people are like, oh, oh my gosh. But it's one of those things where it's like, hey, the director, the administrator, he's treating that person with respect. Maybe I can too. Fast forward a couple of years, people with intellectual disabilities in leadership roles in that program that are They've promoted into other parts of the organization, and it wasn't through telling people or even asking people. It was just doing the thing that needed to be done and doing it in a public way, using my positionality. That's me. This is Centauri. Nope.

[1:05:41] That's Abrahamo Lincone of the Centauri Relocation Bureau. Veer did a very good job creating a fake bureaucrat. Launder doesn't know about him, and he's still authorized to issue travel papers. So I figured, why not take advantage of it? Keep him around for a while. So I added a few details, a photo from your file. Yeah, I've noticed. And Londo's file, because that's Londo's jacket. So how many Narns do you think old Lincone here can get out of danger before the Centauri figure it out? Beats me. It seems like even one would be a victory. From the bottom of my heart, you make an absolutely charming Centauri. Especially in mid to late 90s computer graphics, right? I know we had some problems towards the end there.

[1:06:23] Definitely think we need to talk about it i think you can change some of your ideas they need rehabilitation they say the same about you they say that you are confused but that you will get better in time i hope not either way i will wait for you you don't have this is a perfect example though jeff two people on two opposite sides person saying you're just confused you're whatever and the other person like dude i'm not the one who's confused you're the one who's confused and And at that point, you're stuck until you can get past that spot. And you can't. You're stuck. You can't. The way to get past is using I statements, right? So Veer says this, hey, it says you can be rehabilitated. You can change. Well, that's an attack. One. I have to change? There's something wrong with me. No, there's something wrong with you. There's your loggerheads as opposed to, hey, I've really seen the beliefs that you have. And I just can't deal with someone who feels that way. I need to be with someone who feels this way. It should be great if that were you, but it's all on me at that point. There's nothing they can be like, oh, I'm not blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, I can't be with someone with your beliefs. To do that. No, but I will. So I take your gentle face with me, transmuted into memory by the alchemy of my affection as deposit on our wedding night. The alchemy of our affection. This is what I hated so much the first time. I will see you again, fear.

[1:07:49] Soon I think I still hate it I need you to explain this because I don't get it because everything about this I'm like go Veer you are the man right now go ahead explain it he just said you have to change like you're a person with horrifying beliefs and has done awful things and you need to learn new stuff yet when it comes down to like well she gave me a kiss I mean, I felt so good I, really like no you should have a level i don't want to say disgust but you should have a level of like yeah no like not now not now i can't right now but i'm seeing it in a little bit of a different light though in that i think that he sees some hope from that interaction hey maybe she will change like maybe she will like this isn't goodbye this is i'll see you later and you're gonna get your stuff maybe maybe yeah but without it i feel like it kind of undercuts the growth that we saw in veer really i think so because what i see is i see a man who is staring at what he clearly thinks is an absolutely gorgeous beautiful woman who is throwing herself at him he's still a man and has needs desires and but he is putting his own principles and morals above that above the physical and saying no to that and he.

[1:09:08] Like he's standing right there in the gap he is stepping up as a as a as a freaking man as a centauri you know with morals with a fortitude that frankly we haven't seen from veer and despite that big conversation he's had with londo despite having just lost his job on minbar and been busted back to an adjutant right he's walking away holding holding on even more dearly to to these morals and you know he's letting never got past one right he's letting that chance go and you know he's been thinking about that since he was knee had over well maybe not quite that that small but he's been thinking about that for a while for a while yeah um colin in the council chambers chat says a thing that i think makes a lot of sense he has a lot of faith in people probably too much here maybe like to your point because i think that what i was going to say to counter your point was there has to be a level of like i just can't i like i'd love to kiss you i'd love to get to three you know, whatever. But right now with where we're at, I cannot. But Veer does see the best in people. And so maybe that's what he's feeling. Like... I got this from that good, the best part of her, you know, like, that's good. There's still good in him. I can turn him back to the light side. I can feel it. There's still good in him. Yeah. He's like, I can fix her. Right. Famous last words.

[1:10:33] We didn't need to actually start it again there. Jeff, we've had a big, long conversation there. We have. Lots of messages. I'll give you an opportunity if you want to put a bow on anything that we've just discussed. I feel like we tied the bows. I think we had a really great conversation. I think we double-knotted them, to be honest with you. Yeah, they are tied. Do you have anything else? No. So, Brent, that leads us to ranking this episode, our objectively correct ranking of the episodes of the third season of Babylon 5, which we're watching for the second time here.

[1:11:07] I'm going to hit this one from the middle. I'm going to take a guess. And I'm going to say in the number eight spot, we've got Matters of Honor. Seven, A Day in the Strife. Six, Voices of Authority. And number five, Passing Through Gethsemane. And number four, Dust to Dust. Brent, it's on you, my friend. Where are we putting Seek Transit Aweir? You're in the right spot. You're in the right zone.

[1:11:32] It's going to be hard. This episode's not honestly cracking the top five. It's fair. You know, passing through Gethsemane is still going to hold... A very high spot just because of what it does all right so now i got to look at voices of authority now that's the chicky episode yeah right that's that's 1984 come to life that's pretty hard hitting that's big i personally find this episode fairly hard hitting as well i really enjoy this episode and i don't know i let me ask you this jeff did anything i say change your mind about veer and what this does for his character yes i i do see it differently i still don't think it's like a great moment for him but i also think like veer's centauri he's not going to be it's not going to be the straight trajectory up there's going to be he's got to feel it out and do it i don't see i don't see this now as two forward three back maybe two forward one back yeah i i I would see this more as like four forward and maybe one back. Like I think his steps.

[1:12:40] Two and a half. What do you think?

[1:12:45] I think this did more for Veer and understanding what JMS said about this. Yeah. Okay. I see exactly where they're going. And my respect for Veer and his fortitude and what he is and who he is as a person is just gone through the roof. Yeah. Um, I've often said Londo is the character I would want to play in a reboot, but I think Veer is the character that I would get. You'd be great with this. Veer. I would love to have Veer. I would, I'm maybe even more than long. There's so much meat in that role. Like there's so much more and there's so many different, and the way you play that from the beginning of the show to the end of the show is so different. That'd be, that'd be just, just a great, great thing. Did it do it better than voices of authority? Okay. Let's look at the next one. Day in the strife matters of honor. Absolutely. So really I'm looking, is this going to go under basking through Gethsemane or under voices of authority? And Jeff, I think, and this, I 100% admit this could be recency bias. But I think this is better than Voices of Authority. So this is going to slot in at our new number six. Wow. Yeah. Thank you, Katerina. Katerina says Brent would be a great veer. I agree. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. I would love it.

[1:14:05] Also, do you know how funny it would be? Because the person they would have to pick for Londo is not going to be as tall as I am. Right. Superman first does not seem like that foreboding of a man. Right. Yeah. I am. the fact that me playing veer would just be that much bigger probably than whomever is playing londo is hilarious to me right yeah like the the the the the good it's like what you would have to be sitting a lot yeah that's how that would work yeah yeah i'm i'm not a small human being on your ranking i would have gone the other way but owning my bias i really enjoy all the earth storyline stuff so voices of authority stands out i really like voices i mean it's hard for me to sit there and look at it i i'd almost have to watch the two back to back and be like.

[1:14:57] And that's and that's why i admit it's this really just could be recency bias it could be my bias towards veer yeah you know i it could be all of that i fully fully admit that that could be it but i'm not i'm not going to quibble with you over yeah, That one spot. Oh, I am. Out of curiosity, where did this episode wind up in our original ranking? This landed at number 15. Okay. I think this one might get a move up, but probably not as much as I'm thinking it does. What's interesting about it is number 14 was Voices of Authority. Oh, okay. So right little zone could be where we had it last time. Yeah. Yeah. If this wound up right around 10, so five spots higher.

[1:15:39] I think that would probably be generous. Yeah, because there's some. There's some good stuff still coming. There's some real good stuff still coming. There are some good stuff coming. Especially if we don't rank War Without End as one episode. Exactly. Which we might. We might do them too. We might do them as one. We'll see how it goes. There's a lot of really good ones coming up, like we just said, as we wrap up Seek Transit Veer. I don't think one of those is next week, Brent, but it's going to be a great episode of Babylon 5 for the second time because we're watching a late delivery from Avalon, an episode that shall live in infamy for our first time view. Not, just be clear, not the episode itself from Babylon 5. Our episode. Our episode on that episode will live in infamy. Yes, it will. It will. Yeah. Particularly the Brent Watches version, but. Very much so, yes. Oh my gosh, I'm excited for this one. I imagine everyone is a little bit. See if there's a little redemption or comeuppance, but we'll get to that next week. For now, we played a game the last time around. We played it through the whole first time where we would hear the, the name of the episode. We'd guess what it was about based on that title alone. So Brent, I'll hand it to you first. What did you predict a late delivery from Avalon was going to be about?

[1:17:05] I, I very jokingly said that Avalon was going to be the name of a 1990s all girl group that sings to you your all time favorite Christmas song. That is, which if you, if that, that is, there is a group called Avalon. And they sing your favorite christmas and they sing my absolute favorite christmas song and it's so good it's so good so good girl it's a girl group named avalon an all-girl group anyway um actually i said this episode jeff was going to be our palate cleanser the one that makes you laugh and goes chuckle it will be outlandish and it will be stupid for which i will say i got it absolutely, correct wow wow for at least two-thirds of the first half of the episode and in an entirely different type of outlandish and stupid way i got it correct for the last third as well this will feature king arthur the real king arthur with excalibur there was a guy pretending to be king and having an excalibur yep the vorlon will have had him living on a planet called avalon not really sure if that's what we had and he is here tonight sheridan leading him to become the new president or whatever, completely, completely whiffed on that part.

[1:18:17] You were super focused on Sheridan becoming president or governor or something like that. Yeah, it makes sense. It's almost like it's going to happen at some point. Almost. But again, I go back to having been set up with comes the Inquisitor and the whole Jack the Ripper thing. This to me was a very real possibility of where of where this could go. And it kind of sounds neat. And man, you get the they made a very satisfying thump. The first two thirds of the episode are just there. It's a fun, it's a fun front half of the episode until it goes south anyway. Well, how about you, Jeff? What'd you predict? Not too far off from you. We both had the basis in the Vorlon said Arthur is the once and future King, and he's coming back and spoiler alert. Surprise. King Arthur is a Vorlon. This won't be a comedic episode. It's going to lean into the Vorlon steering, religion, beliefs, all that kind of stuff studied through the Vorlon of King Arthur. So next week, Brent, we do it. Late delivery from Avalon. We're going to watch it. Oh, man. I'm excited for this one.

[1:19:26] From go, this is one of those episodes where we're like, this is going to be one of the second time hole in the tent episodes for us. I got to be honest. I've been very much looking forward to this episode. But now that it is upon us i am not looking forward to this episode it's like the idea like it's gonna be so fun to go climb that mountain it's gonna be amazing it's gonna it's oh my god we'll see it from a different standpoint we'll look at it and we'll and i'm just sitting here going like now that i'm here i'm going just why everybody you need and you know what i have to do for next week.

[1:20:01] I have to listen to our first time episode on this one. This is what I want to hear next week. Jeff, I was so angry at us. I couldn't believe what we were saying. We'll see. I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen. But we've just described. We've described exactly why people need to be subscribed wherever they're listening or watching because they cannot. You cannot miss this at all. Hey, leave us a rating and a review. Leave a comment. It'll be a show next week, folks. It's going to be a show one way or the other. This is one to watch, so make sure you're here if you want to see the unedited version. More than that, if you want to be a part of the recording of that and make comments and stuff, join our Patreon, patreon.com slash badnerds. There's a link in the show notes. You can do that. Also, please, please share this show. That's the one ask that I will make for absolutely everybody watching or listening is please share this show with somebody else so they too can enjoy our rehashing of a late delivery from Avalon and so many other incredible episodes yet to come. So until next time, we're going to get ready for the post office, the Bagnacuda, all of those great things. Hey, Jeff. Oh, I really thought we were going to make it through. What's up? Real quick. You didn't write the outro.

[1:21:23] I thought you were going to write it this time. I wasn't going to write it. You were supposed to write it. You were going to write it. No, no, no. We talked. No, no. You were supposed to write it.

[1:21:41] I didn't even like consider it through the whole thing because it's it's your time it's you are supposed to write it this time so i mean we can pause if you need some time jeff, i'm not the one who's supposed to write it you're the one who's supposed to write it you hey you know you are supposed to write you know brett what's uh you know what's worse than one of the hosts who is supposed to write the outro not writing it, what's that one host with a blame game against the other host i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something, seriously you were supposed to write it yeah.