[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Tenerb Nella. And I'm Faj Nika. Tenerb Nella and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching Babylon 5 for the second time, catching all that cool stuff that there's no way we could have caught the first time around. You know, like what? Like what? Like how JMS named some of the characters. Brilliantly. Like there was Londo and there was Jakar. And there was this great character.

[1:11] This one should be like on the Mount Rushmore of guest characters of Babylon 5. Oh, 100%. Especially one-off guest characters of Babylon 5, because we met the wonderful, the delightful Tamav. Yep, we get to meet her today. And what we didn't know the first time was her name is Vomit, spelled backwards. So great. But we know that now. So brilliant. We know that now. I love it. Well, along with all that stuff that we didn't know the first time, and we're now catching it for the second time, Jeff we'll go back to the those those proper names Jeff and I are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series you know those things that uh tell us how things can be better in the future hopefully maybe how we can be better human beings to one another maybe they just hold up a mirror to society now that being said Jeff and I have seen this episode and all the rest of Babylon 5 before so from this point forward spoilers shall abound Jeff and I have fair game to use anything from any point in the franchise anywhere so if you have not seen babylon 5 for the first time for yourself stop this video stop this podcast go back catch us on our first watch join us on that that was a pretty good time join us there you'll be there for the ups.

[2:30] And the downs and the really, really high highs and the kind of sometimes low lows and all the stuff in between. You'll join us for that ride. And then once you're done with this series for the first time, trust us, it's better this way because there is stuff to not be spoiled about.

[2:46] Then catch us on your own second watch back here. Hey, Brent, when you kind of gave this away a minute ago, but we're watching the episode Soulmates. Do you remember by any chance what you thought about this episode when you watched it the first time jeff i loved this episode you did my memories from this episode i love if you can make me laugh i'm going to like you i i this is a comedy it's funny it's endearing i love how to prove her loyalty and her trustworthiness even though she was just the one that you're like there's no way she's getting it uh you know we know how jms likes to set up to subvert expectations but also.

[3:24] Fulfill subverted expectations and this this episode is a microcosm really of how he wrote characters like jakar for the entire course of the series and even londo i also remember being very disappointed that we never saw tamav again especially once londo becomes emperor because she should have just come back as we we got we got jokey mcjokerson yeah he came back quite a bit where was tamav we should have gotten her back um it occurs to me while i'm saying that though jeff um the whole prime minister thing remember we we had we took issues with the prime minister thing yeah or at least i did a little bit how's he going to be prime minister and then he's going to walk away from the thing like he's not prime minister of anything that's just a name and title only it would have made much more sense if um tamav was left doing the job of prime minister while londa was named prime minister you know what i mean right yeah like and and tamav could have rocked some stuff man totally you know what do you think about this the first time around love this one as well i think this like you said it was fun but also had a great story like there wasn't this throwaway story that they just like had a comedy around they had like real stuff happening yeah it was good i remember some really fun jakar stuff there's some statue thing that got kind of ridiculous and hilarious and deadly and whatever. Like this is a great episode that, uh, I mean, we talked about this all the way through the rest of the series, just the high points in it.

[4:52] What's cool. You're talking about, um, it's too bad we never saw timov again in the legions of fire trilogy the novels that talk about what happened on centauri prime uh after after the series ended we do get some timov and we see two amazing things happening yeah just real high level londo truly expresses her his love for her in what appears to be the worst possible way like anyone don't don't spoil me on this i'm not I'm going to say, I'm going to go through that at some point. Anyone who observes what Londo does would think he's just an absolute piece of Centauri garbage. Really? But knowing what we know, the purest expression of love. Is it? It's beautiful. And Tamav ends up a hero, an absolute hero. Good for her. So you get a little bit of her. You get a little bit of one of the other wives too. So definitely a trilogy worth diving into. I like Nia's comment over here. She says that Tamav's actress, Jane Carr, likely costs a lot more to book than Jokey McJokerson's actor does. That's a good point. Probably true. Probably true. Well, Jeff, you know, that's what we remember thinking about this episode. I actually went back and listened to our first episode. You know, that first watch we encouraged other people to go listen to. A little nervous about this.

[6:17] You want to hear some stuff that we actually said? Okay. All right. So here we go. Jeff, you noted that Dylan asking Ivanova about cramps, like you were noting that idea, because this is the episode where Dylan begins to learn what it's like to be a human female. Yeah. Right. And you asked this question, can Dylan now have human babies?

[6:38] Look at that. How later in the episode, though, you came back to it. And we were kind of talking about um if we were talking about that menstrual cramp joke at the end and like how well it kind of was was written and different stuff like that and you're like you know i think once she figures out what's going on down there she's gonna want to have a baby that doesn't just happen or that stuff doesn't just happen unless you're capable of conceiving a kid which we know from jms's original treatment which we did recently that's exactly what the scene is trying to convey.

[7:13] That she can do that kind of stuff. She is capable of having a kid. So I say kudos to you, on picking up what jms was laying down look at that check and i don't even he didn't write this episode i don't think no peter peter david peter david certainly he got the outline from from jms or at least the big points um now we went on to speculate who the father was going to be oh and we fairly quickly glossed over sheridan yeah and we immediately went back to sinclair it's got to be sinclair and we were all like this is how they're going to keep him in the show even though he's off screen she's going to have an off-screen romance with him and all that sort of thing but you also said that this would be because their baby would now be half and half right that the the soul of valen you doubled down on that the soul of valen was within sinclair and so now this baby would be valen reborn okay okay right that's that's where you were you were we literally like we were very much with the original treatment idea with that whole thing that just shows how good jms's writing is that we were tracking with what he was wanting us to go.

[8:16] Down you know what i mean totally uh yes we were with it and just because he was good at his job yeah kind of we were picking up what he was laying down so when things didn't turn out the way that he had originally planned and people were like oh that's not how it goes i'm like well it was kind of anyway i was a big fan of this episode um i liked the idea that talia because we get a lot of talians this is the talia stoner episode as well oh wow okay yeah i thought that yeah so so we have like a we have like three plots going on in this there's talia stoner there's there's dylan with her cramps and then there's the whole londo and his wives thing okay um i really liked the fact that talia revealed that she really hates psycor and i advocated for this kind of writing but you were not so much of a fan all right you just didn't you didn't feel like it it it tracked with her character so far because she's all like like remember in legacy she's like no you got to go back to the cycle you got to go back to cycle and that was post jason ironheart yeah you know so you you just really didn't feel like it was it was it was consistent and i said actually i find it very consistent i find that it's actually very refreshing for her as a character to know that while she wears this sort of mask.

[9:28] Turns out there's another character wearing a mask. Deep down on the inside, she's scared to death of them and really, really hates them. You said that you said this. We were talking about the future of some of these characters. And we had actually, we'd asked if Dylan was ever going to join the Earth Force Alliance and put on a uniform a la Kira Norris. Right. Because we've never seen that before. Right. And you said no, because you thought, now listen to this. You thought earth force was still going to be a bad guy in fact you went on to say actually you might have said it before then you did not feel that the humans on board the station were going to be earth force for much longer because ea ea the ea is the bad guy in waiting that look at you look at you uh you are speaking you were on your star trek comparisons here speaking of that um you also compared jakar sleeping with centauri women we had a big discussion about what that's like for him sleeping with Centauri women, which is kind of more sticking it to Londo than anything. You compared him to Gul Dukat sleeping with Bajoran women. Absolutely. Yeah. As if Jakar being a bad guy was eventually going to become, I don't know, some sort of a religious or cult leader. Are you serious? Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Oh, wow.

[10:47] Yeah. Now we both declared that Garibaldi is a top five, maybe even a top three character on the show but we also talked a lot about how he crosses the line between professionalism and letting his personal stuff get in the way way too easily totally not okay and we were 100 right on that that still tracks um here i spent a good chunk of the time talking about what psychore is up to and needing to see bester again because we haven't seen him yet right right um to me the number one question in babylon five not about the shadows not about morden not about any of that stuff the number one question is what is psych or up to okay that was my number one question you really said everything really ties back to psych or the death of santiago.

[11:30] Uh clark becoming the new president possibly even the shadows coming back like it all somehow ties back to psych or and you took it a step further and said it actually even goes back to bester okay okay we kind of did uh-huh you know um now bester was pretty high up in the psych or it wasn't just about him, but faster was manipulating stuff for his own. Yeah. And in a real way, psych core is what tied the earth stuff and the shadow stuff, like brought everything. Yeah. Together i said the whole idea of talia asking because she asked a question here which is really poignant um that who is she if she's not psychor oh okay i said that was the question that really kind of codified this entire episode in the in the b plot for me and this is really the first time i kind of started liking talia at all because i really have not liked her up to this point yeah I, I still don't disagree with that. Uh, last thing that I said was I posited, I had a theory, had a big theory, especially coming off of last week's episode with Bureau 13, that stoner was one of the assets. Oh, one of the components, the third. Yeah. One of the components. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[12:41] Um, now one of the things that we sometimes lament is that in our feedback, you and I talk about this, like in the feedback that we hear from our listeners out there, pay attention, listeners. I'm talking to you here.

[12:54] Sometimes the things that we limit is we don't often hear enough about the messages portion. Okay. Because to you and I, the most important part of this whole show is the messages. Everything else is just fun fodder that we talk back and forth. But the real heart of everything we do comes back to what are the messages of the show? And we happened to get a letter from a guy named david this week who works at a cancer center and said how in the darkness of everyday life for him i remember the positive messages that we pull out was an uplift was an uplifted uplifting thing for them um david i i bring that up not just to pat us on the back and tutor on horn i bring that just to say david i don't know if you're still listening out there but i hope you are and i thought that that email deserved another shout out because the idea that you and i two knuckleheads can bring some sort of a light in dark places and frankly it's not even us we're just talking about what jms and his folks did over there yeah right um i just i think that's that's great you know i say all the time jeff on a personal side that we as a society are better when star trek is on tv i need to amend that statement though the world is better when shows like star trek shows like babylon 5 shows like stargate.

[14:14] Are on tv we're better when that happens yeah so agreed uh those are the things that we said in our first watch our first watch through jeff now i know you scour the internet you look for stuff that jms says or maybe some other people say did we get anything interesting about this episode sometimes there is sometimes there isn't what would you find anything good almost nothing on this one really jms not shocked actually yeah on this one jms said that uh peter david is having the time of his life writing this thing. He loves where the character... Oh, no, let me back that up.

[14:48] Peter Juricic is having the time of his life. He loves where his character is going. He loves the range of emotions that he gets to play. He says that he saw him for a bit on the set today shooting Soulmates, and he's just tickled, particularly since he's acting opposite of Lois Nettleton, Jane Carr, and Blair Volk. Kind of cool. The last thing from JMS really was uh timov has a line in this one where and her jane carr voice says who is this and he thinks that'd be a great voice for an answering machine who is this it'd be good i may use that you should i let's call it my answer my voicemail is let's hear my daughter is 10 years old now so my voicemail is probably nine years old like well i haven't changed it in nine years uh-huh you've heard it and it's it's i just like it's i was in the car when i was recording it like i was i was sitting still folks um but i i i said uh hi this is brent and she squealed from the background i was like hi i'm brent i can't come to the phone right now because and that's what she's i was like well because of that so leave a message on it back to you or send me a text so it was real quick but it's i've had so many people comment on on that message that like i don't have the heart to change it and it's cute like it was perfect timing unplanned so i have.

[16:13] That one might make me change it. Who are you?

[16:19] Well, the cool thing on this one, on the Lurker's Guide, they had a Peter David Speaks section. Really? Yeah, which I thought was great. Not JMS, but Peter David. Peter David. All right, well, did Peter David have anything cool to say about this episode? Yeah, a thing that was pretty cool to say. Okay. And this is one we actually talked about, but I love that it's, like, validated here. He says daguerre was pestilence tamav was famine mariel was death stop stop i know that this is a reference to another thing what is that thing remind me what that is the four horsemen why is that important why why are we making this comparison did we did we not say something about like there are the four horsemen of the apocalypse or something like that oh.

[17:02] Londo makes a crack about it. He does. Okay. I'm not, I'm not, I'm asking this for real. Like I'm not trying to leave anything. Like I, he makes a crack about them being like the four horsemen of the apocalypse or something like that. Yeah. He says something about, yeah, they're pestilence, famine, and death. Okay. Okay. Cool. Sorry. I'm tracking with you now. I'm here. So he said someone, someone, someone, what are they again? So Daguerre is pestilence. Tamav is famine, which is great because her last name is vomit, right? And famine. It's pretty good. And then Mariel is death. he goes on to say that originally i was going to have each of their names reflect their respective incarnations but decided that was too cutesy the only holdover from that idea oh here is tamav's name which of course is vomit spelled backwards you all realize of course that londo is by process of elimination he's odd not he's war yeah also odd null.

[17:53] Odd no there it is but uh yeah that's what there is on the internet about this episode so what do you say brent we watch it let's do it you know what a fun episode will be sometime though jeff.

[18:05] Is to go back and actually rename them according to that like according to what would daguerre and ariel or whatever names what would have been where we go maybe not a whole episode just a little segment yeah but yes let's go watch an episode jeff if you're joining us for the first time here's what's going to happen well first of all welcome it's great that you're here i understand why you picked this as your first episode it's going to be great but this isn't a thing where brent and i watched this on our own and then came back and we're going to talk about things we're going to bring it up right here right now we're going to watch it right here with you it's going to be great if you're on youtube you're going to see the reaction to uh to the thing we're going to edit it up and you're going to see the whole uh youtube reaction video thing to this. If you are wanting to see the entire conversation, everything, the edited version of this, we have that on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash Babylon five first. It's the number five, the word first. There's a link down in the show notes. And if you guys are listening to this on an audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction that Jeff just talked about. And then we're going to meet you on the other side where we'll share a few additional thoughts and maybe some of those brand new messages that we say are so important to the show. And we're going to find those ones that we uncovered this time around. Jeff, let's hit the button. Let's do it.

[19:25] Accessing file. I guess it's all relative. Actually, it's relatives.

[19:30] I'm here to pick up some women. Yeah. You'll have better luck at bars. No, no, I mean. Just kidding.

[19:37] So, who are these women? I love his laugh. I know. That's from the Laurie's three wives. A harem. Oh, the lucky dog. Yeah, that's not lucky. There she is. I am Timov, daughter of Al Ghul. You will take me to my husband. I was told there would be three of you. Who is this? Al Ghul? No, never mind. I said you will bring me to my husband. Is your hearing deficient? No, but I do have... Then let's be off. It is a pleasure to meet you. Ah, Veer. I have an emphasis on pleasure. She'd have loved you then. Pleasure? Veer? Yes.

[20:11] I immediately love everything about this episode. Yeah. I'm tired of you constantly. Jeez, I'm sorry. What was I saying? Absolutely nothing. I am not the droid you're looking for. Right. Now, see, he's supposed to be an empath. I don't know if you remember that. He's supposed to be an empath, not a telepath, or at least he got changed into an empath. And somehow he now makes that projection of it.

[20:36] So what's the problem? I don't know. I don't like him. Yeah, I got a gut feeling. See, so much of what I do, it's gut instinct. Right? I see things. There it is.

[20:43] Don't even notice they're there, but they put me on guard. I just hate not knowing why. You want to see me, Captain?

[20:48] Oh, yes, Ms. Winters. there's some rumors floating from the psych or net i was hoping you could confirm or deny uh garibaldi we'll discuss this stoner fellow later all right i'm sorry i just want to pause this uh our our friend andrew in the council chambers yeah mentions that algol is the name of a star in the constellation perseus there's also nicknamed the demon star since its luminosity was variable you know they flick hey do you know the difference when you're looking in the night sky between a planet and a star i do not between like a like a solid celestial body and a star that's emitting light stars flicker they twinkle planets don't so twinkle twinkle little star is actually giant there's no real such thing as a little star right it's it's all relative not compared to us anyway so planets wander yeah but it's hard to like andrew so andrew's act was because planets wander around they do but it's hard to track a planet like on a given night like you could just be able to look up in the sky and go star star planet star like that's how you can is because stars twinkle planets don't stoner stoner barely knew her yeah yeah that was his name matthew he's not here on babylon 5 is he oh god a problem oh it is how did we get an ex-boyfriend and an ex-husband for her rolling up in here and they're both coming after psych war is a very small community like well they're trying to make they're trying to breed them right like you know it didn't work out with her with one so they're trying another one with another one i guess.

[22:15] We talked about this new set a little bit yeah because this is the the earth museum set, And you had a theory that this was a touring museum piece. Okay, okay. So when we don't see it in a couple episodes, that's why. It's because it's moved on. I'm not in the mood. I gathered that.

[22:31] But as one person who sees another in pain, someone whom he considers a friend or at the very least an ally.

[22:38] Look at that. I just want you to know that I'm willing to listen. Jeff, that line right there was the line of message for us. I was just going to say, there it is. That's it. It was just this beautiful, like, Hey, listen, yeah, I'm not your station commander or I am your station commander. You're right. It's none of my business there, but just as one human to another who sees somebody else in pain, I'm available. I'm here. Like how, just how human is that? Like how just honoring of somebody else? Hey, I'm here. I'm available. If you need me watching it here, it really showed me too, that she walked in with assumptions, right? Like, Oh, you're this. And maybe we need to do a better job in checking our assumptions that we have when we're interacting with people who say that again jeff right call it checking your biases there you go but there you go yeah just be aware when you're talking to somebody that you don't know you don't know what they're you don't know what you don't know what they're what they've what they've come through for that day right what they've been going through on that day yeah you you just don't know and you don't know man you know i know judo but usually you don't know i i love the show ted lasso and i heard they're making another season which i think is stupid and just i mean that's a cash grab If anything, the show ended exactly how it needed to, but there's a scene. If you're not familiar, it's an Apple TV show and, uh, Ted Lasso is an incredible football coach, college football, and then UK football. And he's just a cool guy. Like he's great.

[24:03] And I have a whole episode over on the star fleet leadership Academy about it. Actually, if you want to check it out, but there's a moment where someone's asking him, Hey man, how do you do it? Like, how do you just make people feel good and that they can accomplish things? And how do you bring that out at them? And he says, I just treat every person as if they're hurting because we all are somewhere, somehow. And if you just have that care when dealing with another human, but in this Talia came out, you know, guard up. But, you know, it makes sense in a sense though, where brought up in Psycor, Sheridan's a normal. He's a mundane, right? He doesn't care about me. I've been told my whole life that he doesn't care about me. I have to keep my defenses up because he's dangerous. We're seeing a lot of interplay right there.

[24:52] All fair points, all good points and observations only could be known having watched the whole show. I want you to understand. I acquired human characteristics to bring your people and mine closer together. To symbolize our mutuality. It is supposed to be a dignified, inspiring transition for both humans and Minbari. So will you please explain to me why this, this, this? Harry refuses to cooperate!

[25:18] I had no problems with it at first but as time passed it's pretty brittle what are you washing it with you conditioning washing coconut oil or anything washing yes you know when you we use a chemical compound that strips away the okay real quick so every episode is supposed to be somewhere in real time of a year like every season is like a year january to december right and obviously in 22 episodes that's not 52 weeks out of the year but presumably each episode is within a two-ish week period yeah yeah right so from the time she emerged from the chrysalis which was at the end of episode one or two i was at the end of episode two okay so she's really only had episode three four end of episode one but yeah end of episode so season episode two three four five six and this is episode seven right so if you give two weeks to each episode it's been 12 weeks since she came out she has not washed her hair in three months somebody should have said something to her before now because i don't know what you know i know that hair that has not been washed in three months.

[26:30] Somebody's noticing that hair and be like hey dylan yeah we need to i this is new for you right you've never had hair before let's talk i think part of the problem though is what ivanova Or as she just said, we use a chemical compound. Basically, she's been using hydrogen peroxide. But without, you know, it's not dying her hair. But that's basically what she's been, or isobropyl alcohol on her head this whole time. So, yeah, it's nice and clean and drying up and breaking. At least her head is sanitized, though. You know what I noticed, though, here where you've paused and the beautiful image behind you also?

[27:09] No head bone. Oh, there's just a little tiny bit of head bone there. It's on the side. Yeah. It's all going over. It's just covered up. Yeah. Yeah. It's just covered up. So, but remember, remember Jeff, what we learned from JMS, that there is actually a gap between the head bone and her, her, her scalp that allows that hair to grow in between, which is why that means that her bone is only connected on her temples. And then it just hangs out back there. That is an easy break point. I think so. Right. You know, she lays down. She better be sleeping on an angle. Like, if she lays down and something catches it and she breaks her head bone. Right. Ow. Outer layer of the epidermal tissue. It is symbolic of being reborn each day. Of course it's symbolic. And you've been using this on your hair? Yes. Yeah. Don't you? I'm just immersing your body in water to remove the sweat and we do not perspire in the same way you do. We don't stink like you humans, but you do now. Ambassador, maybe I should get somebody else to deal with this. Do you know what to do? Can you brush hair?

[28:14] I have hot oil. Let's make this thing happen. Right? Quite a while. She's like, take this thing. Oh boy, she says. I take a lot more than a brush.

[28:37] I was expecting her, and she didn't show up at customs. We should wait for Marielle to arrive. No, I will not tolerate this any longer. The secret of our marriage's success, Londo, is our lack of communication. You have jeopardized that success, and I don't know why. Anyway, I wanted to save the surprise back. Clearly, you have forgotten. Tomorrow is the 30th anniversary of my ascension day. It is? It is. Okay, stop. Is that basically his birthday? maybe i'm thinking more bar mitzvah the day he became a a man a centauri man right but like so it's the 30th anniversary of his like that's how they mark time is based on their ascension day not necessarily maybe you know yeah what do you obviously we know where this one goes but you know londo comes in and he's he's very seems very on good terms with daguerre yeah uh-huh you know what i mean like that might be a marriage that actually works and then him and tamav are like oh my god where is what's going on here and i think they play different roles right like you've got daguerre who's the dutiful wife doing what's expected and making sure her husband knows that he's important and tamav who's like dude.

[29:50] Find the whitest part of my butt and kiss it like come on no not dealing with this at all right right but what's what's it also strikes me and this is probably just purely my own culture right the idea like these are his two wives they know of each other they have no problems with each other being a wife you know they may have personal issues with each other yeah you know and there's a third wife that they're gonna wait and what are we all doing here why are we like i don't understand polygamy it's not my thing right i'm not judging it i'm just saying i don't understand it so this this conversation strikes me as a little off of like where's my other wife and you guys are all great with it like yeah interesting it's weird to me normal for them normal for a lot of people normal normal for a lot of people a lot of different places i just i i can't like i think of dr flocks over on on uh right enterprise where like he has three wives And each of his three wives have three husbands of which he is one. Yeah.

[30:51] You know, so it's like this is the family dynamic of like 27 people or something like that. What I love about that dynamic, and they even talk about it. There's this many relationships within. I forget what it is. But what I like about it is it's not a patriarchal dominant relationship. This is one husband, three wives to serve the husband. And that's kind of the model that we see here in society where it's, it's all about the dude having multiple wives. It just makes sense though, for if, if you're going to live this lifestyle.

[31:23] W w wives should women should be able to have multiple husbands or what, whatevers like it shouldn't be, you know, the so binary and so dependent just on, on the male figure in the relationship. Listen, I fully believe what's good for the goose is good for the gander, you know? And vice versa. Right. So no time to shop. I like my beloved wives who always find the time to run up my credit account.

[31:50] Give me a gift in honor of my service to our people. The gift he gave me was any one wish within his power to grant. And what was your wish? My sweet divorce. On the arranged marriages to my three wives. However, the emperor requested that I keep one of you to be by my side for future state affairs. So, by tomorrow, I will choose one of the three of you to remain my wife. The other two will be gone.

[32:29] Gone! You'll receive no further money on the vast amounts of my savings you've already diverted to other accounts. You have no title, and you have to do without the privileges to which you have become accustomed. Small repayment for the many years of joy you have given me. I want to go back here real quick, Jeff. Okay. Okay. So you and I know how this ends. Yeah. We know the three wives. We know how this goes, okay? I want to roll this back, and I want you to play specific attention to the look onto Mob's face and the look onto Gara's face when they find out what's going on. Okay. and i want you to read it for me i want to see if you and i reading the same thing okay.

[33:10] We'll be gone look at that face and look at that face you'll receive no okay now read these two faces and daguerre's scared to death tamav is just looking at him and she just sort of looks off to the side and like purses her lips a little bit like her the minute he says a divorce her face says all right dude fine just get just cut to the chase like quit wasting my time just whatever you're going to do do it or daguerre is like well because she knows about the money like as long ago you know the money is going to get cut off and daguerre is like you can't do that see here's how i read tamav's face when he says i'm going to choose one of you to stay my wife i read that as tamav just gonna be like well it's me, Hmm. Like she's just, she's already there. She's like, well, it's me. Yeah. I don't see that. But to Gare is like, no, I can't. Hey, oh my gosh, my life is about to be ruined. Maybe unless I can, you know, convince you one way or another.

[34:11] Well, I think for tomorrow, it's just confidence. I think it's one way or the other. It's going to be me or it's not going to be me. I don't even, I don't even think for her because she knows, I think tomorrow knows that she's in more control than anybody else in this relationship and that includes londo you know at least that's how i read it i can see that i don't see it see nia's like tamal is like well if i'm getting divorced from this schmuck i don't think she thinks that at all there's that first like i'm gonna get a divorce and she looks at him like huh but as soon as he's like i'm gonna pick you know i gotta pick one of you to stay she's all like okay all right okay fine that's like i read it as a full like it's like she does she's not even worried about this at this point not because she might be gone but i don't think she even thinks she's gonna be gone not even on the table she this is just oh so these other two are gone yeah that's that's what this is and okay now why is that important to her why does that yeah i i want to get to that scene between her and franklin because i don't remember exactly the reasons she gave but i want to get to that spot so one thing i want to call out in the in the legacy of the fire trilogy but you know tamav and daguerre play a role and daguerre's is just it's it's heartbreaking what happens to her but i'll just say veer gets to experience some pretty incredible stuff along the way yeah the our friends in the council chambers are all saying that's not how i read it that's not how i read it that's not how i read it and that's totally fair.

[35:36] I'm just telling you how i read it most people are with you jeff on a nope she's well i don't even think she thinks she's gone i think she doesn't care one way or the other she's like I'm good with you. I'm good without you. Just tell me what's up.

[35:49] Yeah yeah i i i can totally i can totally see what you see i can see that though she's like yeah okay yeah came all the way out here to still be married to you great thanks for wasting my time right all right here we go i might be andrew you're right hello miss me you know i said it then and i'll say it again by far mariel is the prettiest of them all okay but she's also the one that's like like yeah you might have fallen for her looks way back in the day but you also know like she is not pretty to him anymore at all yeah right there's nothing at all i want to andrew in the council chambers chat corrected me daguerre is not the one in the legacy of fire trilogy it's mariel and uh to not give that away for you i'll just say brent that veer has one hell of a ride and it's heartbreaking what happens to her are you serious.

[36:42] It's dude it's totally mr home it's mr home or lurch or whatever ambassador we've received an invitation to yes lanier an invitation to a celebration for ambassador malari the 30th anniversary of his ascension let's hear her eyes are down here her eyes are down here Yes. Lanier, we will accept, of course. I will convey that message. Anything else? Say something about it, Lanier. There you go. Actually, it's oddly relaxing.

[37:21] On Earth you have these creatures, insects attracted to flames. Yes, moths. They're drawn to flames and bright lights and get burned. Mariel is drawn to men of power in that same way. But trust me, she burns them. We'll talk later. I still have so many questions about interspecies physical relationships with the Centauri. Yeah. They just have different equipment. Uh-huh. Glad to see you. So how does it all work? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not a word for your ex? Not one syllable? No. None. Why have you come here? You never were a big believer in coincidence. We had something once, Talia. You had something, not we. And it's nothing I want any part of. I'll add it to the list of things you don't want any part of. Good. And walk away. Then I forget, anyone who's telepathic doesn't have that option. Except you you'd love to find out how i did it wouldn't you how i got out all you have to do is lose your telepathic abilities oh that's all i did it what they have no hold on you i could arrange for them to have no hold on you it's interesting interesting the word having a hold on you out of psych or tell you tell you i spoke to your ex-husband i warned him off you if he bothers you at all please keep out of this it's not your concern that's very fair i feel it is feel differently.

[38:43] She is very okay was that influenced by stoner did stoner put that into her i don't know, i just said it felt evil talia it did it had that vibe to it for sure timov should be here too, you seriously expect me to become involved in your sexual olympics lover yes They're merely expressing their feelings for me. I can do that.

[39:14] You haven't changed. You have. You've devolved. It's true love. Being honest. Right? It's a true friend that tells you you have a booger hanging out of your nose. Yeah. Yeah, if I don't like you that much, I'm gonna just let it hang there. Yep. I'm tired of learning things about people I don't want to know. I'm tired of having them shrink away from me because of what I might find out. And I'm tired of being a part of an organization that scares the hell out of me. I like that honesty, though. You did not the first time i know because i didn't think it was consistent but you know what i know is in the next episode that we're going to watch which was originally slated to air before this one is when she has a big transition around her feelings for psych on psych horror oh there you go very different second time impression so if we would have watched the next episode first i think this would have made more sense it would have influenced that a little bit more fair enough all right what is this we've stopped this in a weird spot where there's this thing on somebody's chest on their costume this body cam now what is this it's from me, in a way it's from all of us.

[40:27] That was not shot well no what was sheridan i needed an emergency team fast right away, metabolism is accelerating exponentially brainwaves are all over the place dude i could do with a little can you create an anti-tax exponential metabolism ramp up transfusion might do it but we don't have enough of his type of the blood bank and we've never been any good synthesizing centauri blood i didn't know i i swear i didn't quiet sick of your whining.

[40:55] You can see some concern on Tamav's face. Uh-huh. You do realize that he's not made his divorce decree official yet. If he dies, our futures are secure. If he dies, he dies. You can face him in his bed or his deathbed with equal calm. I am what I was made by my father, by Londo, by society. Breeding will tell. I didn't know it was dangerous. You know, I read that with there's some actual concern on Tamav's part for her husband. Absolutely like despite all the oomph there's some actual concern there and she's rather put out with this idea right she's you're gonna just kill him so we get our stuff like really yeah are you breeding will out like oh my gosh like tomorrow tomorrow's solid i feel like this is supporting your theory so far just saying i've handled it a hundred times harry metabolism Let's set it off. You can explain it to the magistrate.

[41:55] I'll explain it in hell. Wow. All right, Han Solo. Right? Narns fight dirty. They probably rigged all kinds of traps, and this was probably one of them. Could be, which means I didn't ask nearly enough money for it. Oh, well. Easy come, easy go. This guy's got a great voice. He does. He really does. Can I go now? No. Like, that'd be a great voice. If by any chance Londo doesn't survive, you can be sure I'll find something. He should do a sleep podcast. ...transporting dangerous material. Sure, why not? Go for broke. Hey, how about I call you an idiot in public, and you can convict me.

[42:34] I love that line. His new psych war power is comedy. Right? He's killing. It may interest you to know that Londo and I do have one thing in common. The same blood type. Well, why didn't you tell me this before? I was deciding what to do about it. He's dying. Yeah, I kind of hate him. We all die, Doctor, sooner or later. That's a very sober look at life. After everything he's done, I would take some small pleasure in letting him die. But whatever you may think of me, Doctor, I have some principles that even 20 years with Londo can't erase. I do not like to win my battles this way. I find it vaguely unsatisfying. So you may have your transfusion, Doctor, on one condition. He must never know I did this. I don't think either of us could stand the awkwardness of false gratitude. I can live with that this way. I, I, Jane Carr. Oh my god.

[43:32] You got her with the other wives in Londo, and she's playing up the slapstick, and it's ridiculous, and it's over the top, and it's perfect, and it's fun. Right. That was so real. There was no over the topness in that whatsoever. Right. So good. Mm-hmm. You wanted a stoner. Oh, Lou! Lou's still here. Bad. Corroborates everything he told us. Archaeological dig, getting booted out of Sycor. No, no, no, no. I don't buy it. Nobody leaves Sycor. Sycor leaves them. Okay i'll tell him as soon as he finishes eating eating prisoners don't get dinner for another hour yeah that's right so how did he get a meal now he asked me for it he just asked for it i don't know this is why we don't see lou anymore makes you want to like him he gets fired after this this is yeah you're right he gets fired for this yep that's what happens we gotta pay attention see if we see him again you okay i'm going with that headcanon do you know where you are who gets He's fired after letting Sterling get a meal. I'm in a bed lab or in hell. Not a blink of force concern for my well-being. No. If you'll excuse me, I'll be in my quarters. I'm suddenly feeling quite fatigued.

[44:46] Yes, I think I will do the same. It is pretty cool that they're under, you know, suspicion of murder. Right. Or attempted murder, and they're just, you know, tooling around. All of them. And Timoth. The worst of the lot. Ambassador Mallory, do you mind if I make one personal observation? No, not at all. Stick it.

[45:05] Stroke off. Good for you, Dr. Franklin. Stick it where?

[45:13] I can't believe you're throwing away a chance to leave SICOR. I am what I am, Matt. I am what I am.

[45:20] I just wanted you to come with me i didn't want to pressure you i wanted to be different this time but right now i am pressuring you with my ability about the cure you'd want to come of your own free will i can't walk away from who i am or what i am if you take away my talent i don't know what would be left you can understand that can't you yeah we dove into that hardcore yeah the first time around and it would shock me if we do again matt i don't want you coming with me of course you'll arrange for immediate transport he'll be waiting for you in docking bay nine andrew tells a story over in our council chambers he's here in the chat says uh sheridan was supposed to say med lab this is sheridan into the link but there's a blooper where he says sinclair instead of sheridan and everyone laughs at it but instead of being able to get a second take of it uh they hit overtime and they had very strict rules about not giving overtime so called the day just didn't shoot it hey that is a hell of a shot man damn i love being right unless he unless he's got brass knucks on with mysteries is that in order to get rid of the headaches i have to figure them out.

[46:34] A pleasure as always as always i i warn you mariel do not be overconfident i don't think that means that they've had a physical relationship i think they've had a professional would all be concerned.

[46:54] You see that if they haven't he sure wants to oh he certainly wants to uh-huh and your theory was because it's like he's like sticking it to lando quite a piece of work you know all right why did you choose to keep me as your wife and not them? I've made no pretense of affection for you. I find your recent actions contemptible. I'll never love you. At best I'll tolerate you and I'll never be what you want me to be. Why me? Because with you I will always know where I stand. Oh, Londo.

[47:33] Now the question is, does this free him up for more marriages? Like say, AQ, Adira. Right. Does he have a limit? Like he's only allowed to have three? Like total or at once. Yeah. Commander. Well, no, because he was married to that dancer. Why I suddenly started getting these odd cramps.

[47:54] Uh-oh. I tell you, and I talked about it last time. I'll say it here again. They're playing that for laughs. Uh-huh. But you don't end an episode. Like there's intent in ending the episode with that.

[48:07] Yeah that's your dun dun dun well there i mean that's the when we first heard about santiago and it's just a newscast off on the tv and then it's the whole next four seasons right because this this is all about oh she's about to have a period and that's not fun she's gonna have to go through all that stuff but a equals b and b equals c so a has got to equal a new baby yeah it's the simple pythagorean theorem yeah that's exactly what that is yeah a squared b squared c squared.

[48:41] Simple math yes that that is simple math actually it's really not that hard it's not but it's not and hey go back to an earlier conversation our very own nia shares a credit with uh with stoner on halo infinite or shares credits they don't have the same credit okay but pretty cool pretty cool very cool so brent you love this the first time around i have no idea what you thought about it this time what what you know this is where i want to like be like it was all right you know whatever no i love this episode i still love this episode it's so good yeah i start to finish this this is a perfect episode all the way around it's great as a one-off it works in the overall scheme and i'm gonna say something jeff i'm gonna fix something that i said during our first watch okay i said i wasn't sure if this episode was so good because it's been kind of couched in an otherwise.

[49:37] First bit no this is just a good episode that writing is tight the stories are tight the plots all work together very very well it's funny it has pathos it's got humor it's got meaning to it it's it's just a great episode all the way around yeah if i i could nitpick and be like oh i didn't like some of the way Andrew Thompson showed up in this, you know, it was fine. It was the things that weren't awesome were still fine, but this was, this was, This was a fantastic, it was fun. It was serious. It was, it was everything. Yeah. This was, this was great. This was great. And we talked about it during the episode, incredibly powerful messages as well. Absolutely. You know, the, we, I'm sure we talked about this the first time around, but just Tim Ove's silent sacrifice. I mean, that, that, that's, that's caring about someone, you know, she didn't do it for credit. She didn't anything.

[50:33] She just did it because it's the right thing to do. yeah and and here's the question so let's let's have this did she do it because she has any sort of feelings for londo which she says in the end i'll never love you and i'll never whatever and at best i'll tolerate you or did she do it just because londo is a human being and she just cares for life or a centauri being right like and she just cares for life and it's as you say it's just the right thing to do yeah she has she has the ability to cure him she has that ability it's not going to cost her a lot to do it so shouldn't she just do it even if she doesn't really care for the guy like so what do you think was it because of londo and his status or was it just because it was truly just the right thing to do and she had a certain set of principles if i take the episode, on its own i'm going to say she did it because it was the right thing to do okay like he's he's dying and she leaves you know and we just need this this blood type and he'll be fine she's like yeah i'm not gonna i'm not gonna do it and then like she went back to her course she's like god I couldn't live with myself. I couldn't, if I did this, I, I, I'm going to kill him. And it was the right thing. But I think understanding a little bit more about how she shows up when he's emperor and how she performs as his wife. And, and, and even after he does the stuff to her that he does the way she's there, I think that she truly, truly loves him. Yeah. I think that's what it really is. Like in her own way. Yeah. Right.

[51:58] Sure. Well, and it's a thing too. Lando's not a person you're going to get lovey-dovey with, right? And he's not going to respect that. He didn't, right? With Daguerre. She's, oh, my wonderful blah, blah, blah. She's fawning and he's eating her lunch just like, no. But Tamav, who goes toe-to-toe?

[52:16] And you see that with Jakar, right? He and Jakar are great friends because Jakar stands up to him. Tamav is his great wife because she stands up to him. That's what he's looking for in people. He and Veer start clicking when Veer's like, bro, no. Yeah, not cool, dude. Not cool. That's right.

[52:38] You know, Jeff, we kind of have a rule when we're relistening to our old episodes is we stop when we get to the messages. We try, yeah. i didn't though and i kept listening and so i'm having a hard time like i don't want to just rehash the messages we had in the first episode you know but it stands out once again so poignant to me talia sitting there saying if i don't have the core then what am i yeah who am i if i don't have my powers who am i and you and i spent a lot of time rehashing i don't want to rehash it all the way through but i am going to point it back and say go listen that jeff if we can make a note to remember to make sure we're putting a link to the first watch episode in our notes we do yep um great uh you guys i want you to go check that out and check out that full conversation but the the summation of the whole thing you are not what you do you are you your value is in you, your value is in your humanity not what you can do for people and not what you can do for the world and who you are without that is you're still the person i want to add to what because i remember the conversation we have that conversation a few more times through the series it's a powerful lesson. But in, in my professional life, I've really been reflecting. There's so much, you know, I've, I've been in a new role, uh, for a while. I'm about to start another, uh, new executive role and just.

[53:56] Really spending time observing the the behaviors of other people and and i've come to the conclusion that every negative work interaction that you have that's not customer related but like just within the workplace is because people place their personal value in their profession in their title in how important their work is or whatever and that doesn't work because when that happens you make decisions for the wrong reasons you take things personally that aren't personal and you create a toxic work environment where people just hate being, if you know that you have value just by virtue of your life, your existence as a human being that you have worth because of who you are, well, then your work is cool. You can just go and be a cool person to work because it's the thing you do and it's great and whatever. And if you don't have that work anymore, it's cool. You're still fine. Awesome. You know, like if someone becomes a judge or is elected like a senator, We call them your honor for the rest of their lives. We call them Senator forever. You're on the golf course. They haven't served in 20 years. Well, Hey Senator, a military, a military person at any, at any rank level, but particularly one of command, even once they retire, it's still commander or captain or whatever their, whatever their rank was. This thing that you did when you were basically a child at 30, something, you know, like we're going to let you, that's going to be you for now. Nope.

[55:18] It's be you and know you're awesome and you do things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but your value is you. So good episode though, man. I mean, to mob, you know, you know what it is? Okay. So we have Talia asking this question. Who am I if I don't have that, right? Londo comes in with his wives. There you go. Yes. You know where I'm going with this. Mariel and Dagar are both, they like, oh my God, I'm about to not be this anymore. Who am I without Londo Malari? Without his money. i'm nothing without his money and tamav is like whatever i'm tamav i'm me any way you turn this also i'm freaking tamav he's not divorcing me yeah londo why did you choose me i'm not going to do any of this she knew the answer to that you know she knew what that was i am tamav daughter of aldi's like aldi's yeah because algo something like that i don't remember yeah she's related to some grocery store magnet.

[56:24] Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do want to just, I want to correct this. Um, I, I misquoted what Andrew said earlier about the whole, uh, Sheridan. Yeah. You missed a piece the line. No, they actually did go into overtime and reshoot the scene. And, um, I guess Bruce took the, he took the blame. For forcing them into overtime because it's a big deal on their set or something like that so just want to correct that um without having to blame fall on the director so it's fun well jeff um unless you have anything else let's get to let's let's get to this other segment that that.

[57:02] Um is a lot of fun because you know this thing we like to do since really season two of our first watch because we didn't do it during season one as we create our 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon five of season two, Jeff. Now I will tell you when we did this, the first time around this episode at this point in the season went to number one. It did. Yeah. Where does this episode wind up at the end? Let's see. I, cause I know you have that like at your fingertips, number 11, right above points of departure, right below knives. Wow. Okay. Okay. Uh, that feels really low to me, but this episode went to the top. I just got to tell you, looking at like the top 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the second half of the season is so solid.

[57:50] That's why we just said, hang with us through the first half of the season, guys. Cause look, it's, it's not good. The first half is not good. It's just not, um, with the exception of this episode and, and geometry of shadows, I'll give you that one. Uh, but Jeff, our current top five as it is now, which is not our top five from the first time around. So I'm curious how you're going to put this. I'm curious how this is going to change our current top five. Number one is geometry of shadows. Is this show, is this episode better than geometry of shadows? We'll see in just a moment. Number two is points of departure. Three is a distant star. Four is revelations and five is a spider in the web. Jeff, where are you putting soulmates? I am really struggling with this one. I'm actually going back and looking at some of my notes on geometry of shadows because geometry of shadows is excellent, right? I mean, it's the, the, the Drazi storyline is so powerful. The knowing the behind the scenes piece of how like Ivanova was hurt and they just rolled, you know, and made that part of the whole thing is great.

[58:48] The techno mages are, are, are, are fun. Interesting. There's just a lot of really great stuff that happens. This episode is so multifaceted, right? We have a murder mystery, we have relationships, we have Veer trying his best, you know, we have peak evil smarmy Jakar, right? Like he's even got his little robe and his chest sticking out. These two episodes are so very different.

[59:16] Geometry of shadows has ripples that go through the rest of the series this doesn't right this is an episode that in theory you could never watch and not not make a difference in the canon of babylon five you're going to be missing a lot if you don't watch it because it's awesome these are two episodes that really kind of like work it's it's they're so different it's hard to rank them in this and even when i go to my my test what what matters in the canon of the show which one would i rather watch i'm not gonna not watch either one of these but i will say that one of these episodes really caused me to have fun and that's soulmates brent soulmates is gonna once again be the number one episode on the season as it should yeah as it should i will tell you jeff watching this the second time around an analyzing soulmates.

[1:00:07] As an episode of television the writing the way the different plots work together the the tightness of the script the tightness of how the story unfolds where it goes the predictable yet unpredictable nature of it each character got time to shine yeah with jakar had a moment sink uh sinclair sheridan had a moment of bonova had her moment delin had a moment garibaldi had a moment talia had a couple of moments you know what i mean like our whole dvd covers except for that one guy on the end that we'd have no idea who he is like everybody got a chance to shine this episode even lou even they're all there he discovered why he got fired exactly now it all makes sense yeah it all makes sense we found we found the reason why.

[1:00:53] It it's just a great episode all the way around so it's hard i want what i want to do right now is i want to make a prediction that this episode is going to wind up a lot higher than 11 by the time we get to the end of the season. I can't do that because of how strong I know the back half of the season is. And if we get through the back half of the season and this season is not as strong as I remember it. I'm going to be very disappointed. I agree. I don't think we're going to be disappointed though. I do want to want to call out a dunderdoll over in our, our council chambers chat, um, where I had said the first half of season to just go. So it's just so bad points it out. It does seem to fly by on rewatches. And I will say it does seem like we're clipping through these episodes. I think it's because we know like, so, so there's whatever's next week. Right.

[1:01:38] And then we know there's grow pose and then kind of after that, it turns. Yeah it goes i think there's i think there's like one more episode after that but then the rest of the season just goes so we know we're so close we know right now that we're so close you and i had no clue how close we were exactly yeah in the last one so well jeff that's gonna do it for soulmates it is we're gonna wrap this up next week we've got a we got an episode back on deck i'm trying to remember this episode and i think sometimes you tell me the title of an episode and i know immediately what it is sometimes i don't this is a time where i don't do not tell me what this episode i won't oh but my memory says this is probably a good episode or one that we're going to talk about quite a bit because i i feel like this is an episode we reference quite a bit it's a race through dark places jeff it is jeff d do you remember what your prediction was the first time we went through this we didn't know what what the episode was going to be about then Do you remember what your episode.

[1:02:38] What your prediction was? You, you clued me in to it when you mentioned that other guy on the DVD cover, you know, whatever I thought, whatever his name is, I figured this was going to be a followup on that guy and like his whole trying to chase down the shadows in hyperspace. Right. Cause he got that thing. But I remember, and you listened to it. So you tell me if I, if I remember this correctly or not, but I remember making a statement that we're probably getting back to the shadows, but I don't really care about the shadows at this point and what I'd rather focus on all the other things that are going on.

[1:03:11] That's pretty much exactly what you said yeah um i i want to tell you well my official prediction my official prediction was dr franklin is back in his free clinic down below and this is going to be about the dark ethical issues of what it is to be a doctor because the only problem with that is we know that that franklin doesn't struggle with ethics he does not know there's no ethics that he struggles with at all however i think i actually do remember what this episode was about now i prefaced this whole thing by saying jeff is there any way is there any way possible that this episode could be about bester and psychor i said give me bester i want bester and then we went nah it couldn't be no way no way and then i went to the other thing jeff let's just say it what's next week's episode about it's about bester and psychor yeah yeah yeah wow underground railroad all the stuff i make one of the underground railroad episode yep and i make one of the worst jokes in our entire run in this one do you i'm not gonna tell you what it is you have to go back and listen but it's okay it's bad it's bad you know what i don't mind i don't mind doing that so well jeff man that's a great episode yeah i'm excited for this join us here next week you can go listen to my joke on the old episode and then come back listen to us watch this uh for the second time. I'm eager for this. Thank you for being here with us through this watch. I hope you had as much fun as we did.

[1:04:41] Subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Give us a like, uh, stars, all of the different things that you can do. Thumbs up on some of the things comment. If there's an opportunity for you to make comments, I know on some of the podcast apps out there, they've got, you know, episode specific comments, leave them out there. It's fantastic. When we see those, we love to respond to them. Please do. The one thing you can do though that means the absolute world to us is please share this show share it with somebody who you think would have a really good time just like we are just like you are so until we get to race through dark places we will hey jeff yeah what's up man hey uh you know what you are, i uh i no no brent i don't what what what am i jeff you you are my podcast soul mate, really thanks you're my you're my podcast soulmate too man oh hey listen it's just good to know that if i'm ever feeling insecure hugging you will just it'll it'll make it feel better.

[1:05:45] Music.