The Coming of Shadows | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin.

[0:40] Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time.

[0:50] Catching all the stuff that there was no way we could have caught the first time around. And there's a lot of stuff we missed the first time around jeff well we've said it before i'll say it again babble on five is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice there you go i like it i like it you know what we also get to do twice jeff hmm search for the messages that are contained within that's better than fried potatoes like i was thinking yeah please don't do that twice so good no no no twice baked potatoes you could do that but fried baked potatoes come on man you know what we do when we do this this thing though jeff we ask questions like is this episode holding up a mirror to society is it giving us hope things can be better in the future is it telling us how to be better human beings one another those are the kind of messages sci-fi as a whole is just naturally situated to to be able to do really really well there's what we did the first time around but now that we're babylon five experts we and we have access to i don't know the man himself telling us what the messages are we're re-examining even that whole piece of it that being said um for all of you guys who are joining us for the first time welcome to you this is your spoiler warning because everything from this point forward is fair game from anywhere in the franchise any part of the timeline no matter what no matter where whether it's extra biblical whether it's canon whether it's a.

[2:15] Convention a book a novel a comic book something that somebody else said somewhere in passing one day that's all fair game for jeff and i to talk about so if you have not seen this great series for the first time for yourself stop this video go back and find our one where.

[2:30] We did this the first time around join us there and then.

[2:34] Catch up with us when you get through the series trust us it's better that.

[2:36] Way it really is this week brent we're watching the coming of shadows can we skip this one might as well i mean i remember this one nothing much happens in this one this is like hey we just need to remind you this happens on a space station yeah that's the only thing this has no effect on anything having to do with anything for the rest of the series at all doesn't set any stages doesn't do it actually regresses some character development yeah yeah i just i don't know do you though remember like what you actually thought of it when you watched it the first time what did i actually thought about it uh jeff i remember thinking that this episode was so good so good i loved it i really do i remember loving this episode front to back i remember the the the emperor who didn't have the head thing and i was like so that's a choice you guys are making like my whole world blew up what right um the thing is i don't exactly remember why we liked this episode so much i just remember really really liking and i remember that that guy's in it so i'm really excited to dive back into this and go exactly what was this episode really doing and where does it go how about you jeff what do you remember i remember what might be the most uncomfortable scene in all of entertainment londo and jakar sitting down for a drink yeah yeah yeah i know why yep yes oh my god yeah i love this the scene of emperor.

[4:04] Turin or the emperor at this point dropping like in that whole like with the whole guard thing like that that scene that image is burned into my head it's just that moment so much sparks off of and it's just yeah i absolutely loved this episode yeah you did yeah i i can confirm that you want to know why why because i went back and i listened to our original episode you did.

[4:31] Yeah we got some stuff man yeah you want to hear i mean listen a part of this is interacting with ourselves for the going on for the first time and calling ourselves stupid or dumb or brilliant depending on how things go um jeff i gotta say though to kick this whole off you mispronounced two names and both made my skin crawl as a babylon five aficionado oh no you were talking about the wonderful masterful actors who portrayed jakar and londo and you called them andre katsulas and peter jurassic jurassic yeah i'm a jurassic i was like whoa that's not how you say that name at all i would have been commenting down below well actually right probably would have been done that um you just you loved their acting ability with this we really talked a lot about how andreas can act through his makeup how it comes through his makeup and just kudos to the makeup team for a lot like the expression that can come through the makeup which we really don't see in a lot of prosthetic heavy alien species and a lot of sci-fi at this time yeah even now yeah um you you went a little uh star wars ish on us here not star wars but star wars you asked a question hey is it better for londo to die now and not have there be a war because in this episode londo this is where they launched the war against.

[5:59] The the uh narn right a war that we know would really go to about the end of the season this isn't the.

[6:05] Big war that comes you know like this is the little war in front right uh but is it better for him to die now and have there not be a war or is it better for londo to turn into anakin and go the darth vader route like is this londo's like young moment right oh right so we we talked a lot about londo and i gotta tell you i did not like londo becoming a villain no like it scared me and i was very trepidatious i i said this i said i don't know if i'm ready to go where we're about to go in this series to which i said to myself oh brent my sweet summer child buckle up kid you have no idea where we're about to go in this series maybe we should go to the kitty roller coaster first if this is upsetting to you right right we did have a bit of a long discussion if londo is the actual villain of the show at this point think about this at this point in the show you and i are going is he the villain is he the actual bad guy because like we know where he ends up in the end but for the next three and a half seasons jeff well maybe two and a half seasons.

[7:17] Yeah he's the bad guy like okay maybe to see i guess it's about the middle of season four he comes back around right ish like like set off and on in there like yeah londo really nia says it yes but also no exactly um but we really had this thought and i said you know we still see this redeemable part of londo because we got to start the redemption of londo malari at some point it's the redeemable part of la listen jeff i am nothing if not consistent there's that.

[7:50] You can read me like a book you know you know like that's a brentism that's what i say this is just i'm really clear i loved this though i asked if londo will eventually become the emperor because we had this whole thing about like is the vision gonna come true because in sci-fi a lot of times you wind up with oh the future is not written you can make of it what you will blah blah blah blah blah we asked if londo is going to become the emperor and you said this jeff you said this almost pulled into a ditch when when you said this you said londo is eventually going to bring an end to the war by sacrificing himself did i yeah now it was a different war and the war was kind of actually already over but there was this certainly londo sacrificing himself by the end uh we also drilled down on the question of how is this all going to end and cautious answer is in fire yeah we we had no idea that what that actually meant was it's going to end in fire because the station is gonna blow up and literally end in fire i i had i took a i took a bit of time to compare this to signs importance because this is the title of the the season right like this is the episode title of the season signs importance was the episode title of uh season one and i said uh this was not like science importance this was a great episode signs importance on a first watch is very meh it's okay yeah and i was just saying signs importance was meh.

[9:19] I'm now at this point in my, my seat adding on a first watch. Yes. I'm adding the qualifier right now because this was a great title episode. Like we said, this is a type, this is the type of episode that the whole season should be named after.

[9:36] Um, and I'll, I'll maintain that, but just for the record. So you guys, you don't have to send an emails. Okay. Jeff, what was the number one episode from season one on our second watch? Uh, signs importance. Okay. fair enough yeah and we were in full agreement on that yeah i didn't have to look it up i'm just like yeah that was the one i knew you wouldn't have to we really appreciate getting to see sinclair again this is the episode where he does his little video message jeff it is isn't it and i gotta tell you jeff i have a theory all right this is this is the red string theory of of brent and jeff talking about brent and jeff i think this is where we fell in love with sinclair i i totally agree totally no i don't like when when he was on the show and he went through we never really had a whatever he comes you and i were so excited to see him back and we're like and it just feels comfortable and it just feels right and it's just nice to see him it felt like a warm hug it was sinclair yeah and then we see him again later obviously in season three with war without end and then when you and i came back to season one it's like it's our guy yeah this guy he's great i think this is where we kind of really fell in love with sinclair yeah i really remember that moment of just like i can't believe it but just hearing that voice feels like this is like where have you been my whole life uh-huh uh-huh you made a speculation about the rangers speaking of.

[10:58] Sinclair you speculated that the human rangers were the ones who are identified as ones having minbari souls because we didn't know that much about them you know we were first introduced to the concept here and we didn't we didn't know anything about anything but you said yeah they're the ones that are with uh minbari souls they are the ones that are going to be the next evolution of human and minbar together like that's what the rangers are going to be maybe they'll even go through their own chrysalis experience and kind of start looking like the lynn does now okay okay.

[11:28] That's not at all what it is no like at all you were so far off base but i gotta tell you i had a hell of a time listening to you just go way off base with that man it was a lot of fun it was a lot of fun i'll tell you something it wasn't a lot of fun we asked about how guilt like what role veer plays in this because veer goes and gets morden for londo and your words were at nuremberg he's guilty he's an accessory he's guilty of all of this and he could be brought up on everything, and he probably ought to be. Wow.

[12:02] I don't want that to happen because we love Veer. We love veer the last thing that that we had jeff that i'll go into here is um there's a little bit of a bab five deep space nine bouncing back and forth ripoff thing out of this episode yeah yeah because in this episode we get sheridan's rule number 29 okay yeah yeah and actually i kind of chuckled because uh we laughed it was this them rip because dc9 had been doing rules of acquisition for a while up to this point so is this babylon five actually ripping off deep space nine a little bit and kind of poking the bear a little bit poking poking back i don't know i don't know but i thought it was funny the cool thing is like we totally get follow through on all of the rest of his rules because that becomes a really central part well i mean we get we we get enough that we could write a book and have very few x or x x uh pieces that are missing right yeah very few pieces that are missing people who just make them up almost totally complete yeah and actually in.

[13:03] Vault in the volumes of john sheridan it sits right next to um his volume on conspiracy theories exactly it's the next volume yeah exactly exactly jeff those were some of the things that we talked about in our original uh viewing of this particular episode you however went and scoured the internet the interwebs books and whatnot maybe even the script book i'm not really sure what all you checked into but you said you had some stuff to talk about with this one lay it on us what does the man himself j michael straczynski have to say about the coming of shadows there's so much so much so i'm just gonna let everyone know up front i have heavily curated this down uh we the whole thing doesn't want to be hey here's all the things about it there's a tremendous amount of literature online and in the script books and elsewhere on things so i grabbed uh kind of the the top couple things that stood out to me there are quite a few brent i'm going to save for the watch the episode watch itself um but one of the big ones and there was some chatter in it in the council chambers chat uh either before we started or early on but this episode won a hugo award did it really the first of two for babylon five the second one being severed dreams for those who don't.

[14:16] Know hugo awards are the wards awarded to award for people who want awards what are the hugo awards jeff oh they're like the pinnacle of sci-fi yeah sort of not just television but like sci-fi as a whole like books movies movies everything yeah all the different forms winning awards a pretty big deal yeah it's a big deal yeah and uh beat out some real heavy hitters some star trek and other stuff and this one is a is a is a big deal thing for them he says uh jms says you know those moments when you're in the passenger seat of a car and the person driving mean it's doing something crazy and your foot automatically keeps searching for a brake pedal that isn't there because you know something awful is going to happen yeah that's the feeling you're going to get through this episode.

[15:02] Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can see that. You've had a question for a really long time, Brent, and there's an answer for you here. Hey, I'm Brent. Do they know what their storyline is? What do they know about what their character is going to become? Does Londo know that he's going to have this happen? Yeah. Mr. Straczynski says, I generally don't let the actors know what's coming unless it's important to the current performance. Otherwise you risk having the actor play the result instead of the process. Had to make a divergence from this recently so Peter could understand better a sequence in The Coming of Shadows, which you'll understand when you see it. I ended up giving Peter info on signs prior to shooting Chrysalis last season. That was the biggie there.

[15:45] For Coming of Shadows, in order for the scene to match what's going to happen several years down the road in the series, I had to kind of give him the context of the dream and what was really happening in that scene. What caused it and how he got to that place with jakar's hands around his throat interesting i love so much that because like yeah he he knows you know he's just like yeah this is what it's gonna be you know one thing that i i have always appreciated is when you look at old londo in in the beginning which was filmed and shot between season four and season five when you look at old londo i mean do we see the vision do we see things like that later in season five i don't remember or not but also certainly in war without end which was uh mid season three mid to late season three right and then the vision i'm sure that we're going to get in today's episode when you take all of that and you compare that with the vision that we get to have we've seen this vision before in season one right they all look the same yeah there's none of this like oh it looks better as they get on or, you know, the makeup's a little bit different or something. No, no, no, no, no, no. It is all the same. And it almost feels like they filmed all of that at the beginning of the show. And they're just showing these clips as they go through, like the, the consistency with it.

[17:06] From the beginning, I think is just phenomenal. Yeah. Turin Bey, who plays the emperor in this, originally came in to audition for Elric in Geometry of Shadows.

[17:17] Interesting. Okay. We wanted someone with more menace, Michael Ansara, but we were all just blown away by how wonderful, sweet, and nice of a person he was. And as he left, I told John Copeland, I'm going to write a part just for him. So I did. We cast him and everyone on the set loved him, To the point that at the end of the shoot, they were saying, you bastard, how could you bring in this wonderful man in here and then kill him?

[17:43] Because we know JMS does one thing really well. He kills kids and he kills old people. He does. Think about it. Every time we get an old person on the show, they die. They're going to be dead every time. Listen, draw draw was. I mean, he barely made it by the skin of his teeth. And then the next time we saw him, he was young again. Right. we uh gosh who who i mean david werner grail guy dead right um i'm gonna keep going but i'm not going to at this point londo eventually when he gets old he dies like john sheridan when he dies when he gets older yeah he likes to go old people man an interesting note about the rangers we we've talked about it here and others have that there's a real tie to the rangers in lord of the rings yeah but he.

[18:28] Says it actually owes more to the lone ranger and the texas rangers than they do to lord of the rings okay and it says if i had to choose one episode to represent the series it would be coming of shadows it has all the elements that i'd feature in a b5 discussion the cgi the characterization the complexity the politics the language and the performances i want to know when he said that that's a good question did he say that while they were filming this or before they'd filmed this and he's saying this in context of this now or was this something he said at a convention years later after the whole show was done yeah i'm not sure when it was i really want to know yeah i because i think it changes the impact of that statement a little bit the last one for now and then i have some for during the episode itself but he says uh the coming of shadows is a deliberate mirror image of midnight on the firing line partly to illustrate the notion that the wheel turns as jakar says and if you forget that and if you forget that it eventually turns on you and you'll be ground underneath by mirror image he just means in men on the firing line the narn attack the centauri and in this one the centauri attacked the narn i'm curious in watching if we can see some other points that might be mirrored that would be an interesting like do it as a solo like episode of thing is hey listen he says this thing And we're going to compare and contrast those two specific episodes. That'd be, that'd be, to me, that'd be interesting. I don't know if it'd be interesting to anybody else. To me, I'd be like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah.

[19:56] Well, it'd be interesting to do it. And then if it's not interesting, just, you know, that goes to the archives and nobody knows.

[20:02] So Brent, what do you say we watch this episode? I think we should do that, Jeff. I'm excited too. If you're joining us for the very first time, welcome. We're really excited that you're here. So you know what's going to happen. Brent is about to bring the episode up, and then the two of us are going to watch it right here with you. We'll stop during the episode itself, have any discussions we want to have, talk about all the stuff that's going on. That discussion will be edited up for YouTube. So if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see the reaction video style kind of a edit on this one. If you want to see the full and unedited version of the, uh, our discussion on the episode, you can get that at our Patreon page. It's patreon.com slash Babylon five first, number five, the word first, there's a link down in the show notes. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, um, we're going to keep that reaction in for you guys. Cause a lot of times there's a great discussion in the middle of that. We don't want you guys to miss that. And then we'll meet you on the other side where we're going to share thoughts, talk about the messages, all that sort of stuff. We'll have a fun little discussion as we go out. So, Jeff, let's watch The Coming O Shadows. Let's do that. Accessing file.

[21:09] Is this our first time seeing the home world? I think it is. Yes. The Royal Line is standing by. We have adequate warships for protection, and they're prepared to set forth as soon as we arrive. As soon as I arrive, you will remain here. I must protest, Majesty. As I expected. But someone has to remain here in case there is a crisis. He has the crest. And you, as my Prime Minister, are the first in line of authority. The doctors say your condition is very delicate. The least amount of stress. All the more reason why I should go now, while I still can.

[21:42] What I must do, I cannot wait any longer. No need for that now. It's interesting. Everything we've heard about the Emperor to this point is that he's inept. These are not as important as they used to be. Sometimes I think our women are right when they shave their heads and rise above them. Majesty i will go among them as i am who have always served me well old friend and sometimes i think i do not thank you as much as i should goodbye the thing is is the centauri he's got a pretty good idea that he's gonna die oh that's a good point he's seen his death he probably knows it's on babylon 5 yeah i wonder what out of context bits he gets that he doesn't quite know what it is i gotta say though i loved what he just said to malachi here yeah so he goes i probably don't thank you as much as i should and he says it he's goodbye my friend and he walks out you said something just a minute ago that up everything we've known about this guy so far is that he's inept is he though no or is that just what we have heard from the people that have been in our viewing that's it and that's the thing and there are people who are trying to not only maintain the status quo but actually like revert to an older version of their culture this dude's super progressive not maybe he's not enough maybe he's actually the most brilliant one there.

[22:55] Although can we also just say we've verified that once again the hairstyles are a choice and the women shave their heads yes which i can see under the veil of this girl just off to his rights well his left or right you can see the shade of her head yeah they shaved her head that's not a bald cap they shaved her head and you feel like you can see it for the other ones too It's absolutely intolerable. That's a beautiful shot. So that's a thing.

[23:25] So in the, in this episode, they updated a lot of the space shots with images shot from the Hubble telescope. So what we've been seeing before this has been CG here and moving forward. A lot of the images are now with actual images from the taken at the, uh, from the help, the Hubble telescope. So like it's the image from the Hubble telescope with the station superimposed on top of it. Yeah. Hubble took a picture of Epsilon three and then they just slapped the state. The planet too. Right. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Okay, all right. Dig it. His family is directly responsible for strip mining my world. His father personally ordered the execution of 100,000 arms. But he himself did nothing. Am I correct? A technicality. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, the current emperor has gone out of his way to offer your world concessions and return lost territory. Stolen territory! Whatever. Wow. Look. He's doing the right things, but they're not right enough. I appreciate the fact that 100 years of blood isn't something you'll forget overnight. But the bottom line is, Jakar, that is not my problem. This station is open to everyone. Oh, look at that look. Now, if the emperor wants to come and visit Babylon 5, I think it's great. It raises our visibility and it helps the folks back home think that maybe we're doing some good. So you're going to allow this, even over my objections? What, did I suddenly turn invisible or something?

[24:52] Yes ambassador camper is allowed to come aboard if this bothers you I suggest you stay in your quarters stick your fingers in your ears and hum real loud until it's over you'd like to try something as breathtakingly rational as trying to open up a dialogue whoa there it is, There it is. Say it, Jeff. Just say it. I have so many things to say right now. The biggest one, all of Jakar's objections are baseless. The sins of the father. And not only are they the sins of the father, but the son has gone out of his way to rectify those sins as much as he can. But you know what? That's not good enough. Because this thing happened to people that aren't me by people that aren't him. And I will now hate him and object to everything you do that's supporting him. We actually talked about this quite a bit in our first episode. I'll bet.

[25:39] We did. about the idea it's misplaced anger like that there there is a a right thing in that he uh this man right here um as the current head of the government does bear the weight and responsibility of what came before him but it's because his office bears that weight not he himself bears that weight and jakar is misplacing it because he says he's a monster yeah no he's not the monster people who came before him he's taking responsibility for what his office has done you know and and it's it's a misplaced thing this is actually we're we're gonna have a good discussion later on because i like listening listening to us go through this the first time jeff and i've not watched this episode since we watched it for the first time okay same same but listening to our discussion knowing where londo and jakar go i had some immediate thoughts of going oh yeah and i'm seeing something we're going to have this discussion when we get towards the end of the episode but this moment right here setting up just want to take note jakar is not willing to open up a dialogue and he is furious and he is angry and he is irrational right now this is going to play later so we'll take it here but again his anger is misplaced in this moment i want to point out the mirror to society in this moment. So I shared earlier on mic or off mic, I forget, but, uh, that I met with one of our state legislators today. I recently became responsible for an entire, um.

[27:08] Statewide program. It's a big deal thing. And so this legislator was telling me how horrible everything is. And she said a thing that was great. She's a step ahead of Jakar, but many people aren't. She said, I know that's not you. It's the system, but I'm expecting you to do something about the system. And that's exactly what Turin did. But there are so many people that will not make that separation. And when I show up in public space, it's me. Yeah. I think it's really important. And I try to keep this in mind. And sometimes I embarrass my friend Matt, who often goes with me when he's, for whatever reason, he tends to be with me when I get into my little diatribes with folks, because it tends to be at Disney, but I will look at the person. I know this is not your fault. You are just doing your job, but you are the person who works for your company. Who's standing in front of me right now. So I'm going to expect you to take this back to your screen.

[27:56] Like you're the person here in front of me right now. You're, you're on the phone with somebody customer service. They're not doing what they need to do. Look, I know this is not your fault, but you're going to get an earful from it because you're the representative of your company right now this is recorded right tell them to play this one right right but it is important and and do you know how often when you do that you say it lessens people's defense when you're talking to them on the phone just be it look i know this isn't you you're just following your job because it turns out you're a peon and you have absolutely no power in your job whatsoever which is also what i'm saying yeah and to becky's point in the chat dude this is peak big sheridan peak dude sheridan's on point here yeah what i just turned invisible i love it i love it did i not just say this he's all the smile in a position to negotiate directly with the head of the centauri republic and you're wasting it on a tantrum i shouldn't have expected you to understand captain my mistake.

[28:53] Here's the thing dude i do understand jacar jacar is so lost in his anger right now he don't do something yeah it's too late for that captain too late by far weird thing is it's almost never too late uh this is when you call garibaldi and you're like somebody on him just had an active threat project was our last in fact that probably would be negligent upon shardin's part to not do something of that nature yeah you're right does he know what it's about he He believes it's nothing more than a progress report on your situation here. We've taken the liberty of writing your speech for you. Oh, how thanks. That's so great. It outlines the decline of our government and our need for change. It also makes a few predictions about what will go wrong next with the economy and the military. These predictions, they will come true. Already arranged. Yeah, Vier being in the room is not a good look. Only word will turn the right ear. The method is unimportant. What matters is that when it comes through, the Emperor will look weak and short-sighted. Whereas we have our eyes on the future with you you know you mentioned veer it's it's an interesting thing how servants like veer can be in a room and be completely ignored by this class of people right doesn't even exist right like spill all your beans right in front of that person doesn't even matter because you're too busy to notice that that person exists and it's even first height paul in the in the chat the guy with no lines is acting just as much as the other two guys. Yeah, because it's awesome.

[30:18] I will leave you to study the speech. If you have any questions, you know where to find me.

[30:24] Yeah, he doesn't even look at Veer. Just puts his glass down and walks. This conversation makes you uncomfortable? Yes. Yes, it does. Then for once, we have something in common. That's Londo reaching out right there. He's like, help me, please. Londo's name. Note the beginning of where these two are. Jakar, pissed off, mad. Londo, really uneasy. Don't like what's happening here. This is bad stuff. warning signs warning signs yeah not okay listen to your body londo listen whose ship is this is this the emperor ship i think so okay i offer the hands of friendship on behalf of the earth alliance i accept this is my second that would be weird if that wasn't the appropriate greeting security michael garibaldi dr stephen franklin i'm a little sad that we didn't hear the it's an honor um news we didn't get him like practicing it beforehand right exactly I'm in the royal palace on Centauri Prime, and I'm deeply moved by the knowledge that you would choose to stand in harm's way in the interest of peace. Thank you. Just before he gives his speech, there will be greater exposure. Are you still prepared to go through with this? Yes. It is a strange feeling, Carmack, to know suddenly that all the decisions in your life have brought you to this place.

[31:47] That there is no longer doubt or uncertainty. be that's gonna be that's his final moment hands around londo's throat this is what i am here for.

[31:58] Interesting in the moment that i strike the emperor and i will both die or he will die and i will spend my life in prison or i will fail and be killed the first time in my life the path is clear for the first time in his life he says yeah.

[32:16] Still noting where Jakar is at this moment. You seem interested in why people chose to be here. It has occurred to me recently that I have never chosen anything. I was born into a role that had been prepared for me. I did everything I was asked to do because it never occurred to me to choose otherwise. And now, at the end of my life, I wonder what might have been. Oh my god. So, there's such a parallel to Bester in this, through the novels. Bester did the same thing. He was born into a role that was prepared for him. He did all of the things that was expected, blah, blah, blah. And then near the end of his life, he started to see things very differently. Saw it through it. And then he ended up regressing because of stuff. But yeah, just hearing the Emperor say that, it's like that's Bester's story as well. If there are two completely unrelated characters within Babylon 5, with that experience, how many of us are there in real reality? We were born into a role. We went through the motions. And then in our deathbed or near the end, we were like, oh, crap. That was not it. I mean, that's Londo, though. That's Londo's whole thing. Yeah. He's born into a role. He's got a role, and he forgot how to do that. Yep. Right? No regrets, then. No regrets. But just a few. You? Enough to fill a lifetime. So much has been lost. So much forgotten. So much pain.

[33:38] John lived the life he wanted to live. No regrets. The present can turn full of them. The future frightens us. Our lives slip away moment by moment. Jeff, I'm sorry. You were talking over what the emperor was saying right there. And that is a beautiful line. It is. I actually put on a t-shirt. I even have it captured here just because he, in the lurker's guide, JMS, made sure to capture the full quote. So he may actually say it, but I'm going to, I'm going to watch and make sure. Just a few. The past tempts us the present confuses us and the future frightens us our lives slip away moment by moment lost in that vast terrible in between yeah that was the whole thing god the past tempts us the present confuses us and the future frightens us i don't know that i fully agree with that no but i don't know that the future frightens me i don't know that the past tempts man i this is where like i want to sit down with a man and be like what did you mean by that like like talk me through that because you might be right like i might go on with you on that one but i'm not entirely sure but i love how it sounds so great it sounds so poetic right like i i want to be on it just because it's poetic right it sounds very minbari right but if i think about it in a different term the past tempts us that's nostalgia right like there's nostalgia where you're like, oh, those were good old days. Then there's the nostalgia of God, if only I could.

[35:02] Again, in a real way, the entire premise of our content empire is based on the past tempting us. We are called to the past. Present confuses us. What am I supposed to do with my life, man? What am I doing here? This is a job I really want.

[35:18] Am I supposed to be a dad? Am I going to be able to do this thing questioning and that's not a constant state for us but i imagine more people are confused by their current state than are fully confident and know this is where they belong i i'm also relating this to to londo specifically but i wonder if it actually relates to londo and jakar for both of them past tempts us londo is constantly tempted by the past the way things used to be right jakar constantly tempted by the past and this thirst for revenge for what has happened in the past the president confuses us right what am i supposed to do what's my next right step why am i here what am i even doing here right now blondo says right the car is like i've never i've never been clear about what i'm supposed to do just sort of meandering through life and just kind of full of rage this whole time what are we supposed to do well i think about that too in terms of like the scope of the show am i the i'm the bad guy clearly nope no i'm the good guy and not the bad oh no i'm like they've both flip-flopped and evolved roles because it's confusing in the current in the present.

[36:20] And the future frightens us. Londo sitting there, even in this episode going, holy, what's about to happen? This makes me very uncomfortable, Veer. Right. Or I've had this vision of the future and this is where we're going to go. What does that mean? And I would say, Katerina says that right now, Jakar's not confused at all. But I would consider that he is. I'd say he might be more confused than he's ever been. And I think that what we're seeing is the echo of being frightened of the future. He's afraid of a future where he doesn't get vengeance yeah for this thing it scares him which then confuses him in the now he's building towards a future that's not although i would agree with katarina just with the caveat of jakar does not know that he's confused at all right jakar thinks he's perfectly clear on exactly what's going on there is still time to seize that one last fragile moment. Fragi. To choose something better. Alince. To make a difference, as you say. And I intend to do just that. There's still time. Right? It's not too late. Check and recheck. They'll be down any second. Jakar, it's too late. It is far too late. The Emperor, it's not too late. I'm gonna die any minute now, and I still have time. Listen, if you ain't dead, you ain't done. Right? Well, speaking too much to hope for. The Vorolons are too much to hope for.

[37:43] Come on, Sheridan, man. Garibaldi should be on high alert right now.

[37:55] I need to talk to you. About what? Relax, I got him. So talk. That's what I figured. Take him down to holding and keep him there until the reception's over. I feel like as a ranger, he would be better than that. Although at this point in um in time the rangers are in their infancy no they're not the rangers have been around for over a thousand years human rangers are in their infancy okay whatever yeah they didn't start inviting them until sinclair came over it's been nine weeks which actually is not quite enough time for them to complete their training program it's like an apprentice i would say i feel like nine weeks is not at all what a training program should be for anyone who and any sort of high-end, martial arts-based. Now, nine and a half weeks.

[38:46] Music.

[39:02] I love how they slowed it down and not in a real corny way but just like an impactful dramatic slowdown god dude that was so elevated by christopher frank's uh score though right there way better than the dude that did crusade way better and way better than his score when the when the emperor showed up yeah it was there but there's that screech that was kind of going through you could feel the heart thing i want to address neil in the council chambers chat uh were the rangers actually around a recent history i thought they were only recently re-established they were but they had become a punch line we see that in um in the beginning um we see the the um.

[39:38] The the ranger one or animal shock prime or whatever um you know trying to get in all the stuff so they kind of stuck around but they became a joke they were valen set them up to be on watch and ready for the return of the shadows shadows in about a thousand years but it became a punch line for everything and then when valent when sinclair went there he was tasked with re-upping them because they knew the shadows were a thing and he's like well i'm gonna totally include humans in the whole thing i believe there is a non-colony on the border of centauri space quadrant 14 londo yeah it's a listening post push back there spy on us for years by all rights that entire planet should be ours let us take it back we couldn't take it without a major assault we You would lose thousands of lives. I will take care of it. Have your contacts in the military, send an expedition to Quadrant 14. I can only guarantee a few ships. It will be enough. I hope you know what you're doing, Mulani. Find Mr. Morden, bring him here.

[40:36] Lando, don't do this. I have no choice. Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

[40:42] I know you don't listen to me, but I'm asking you just this one time, don't do this. There's no turning back once you start down that road. Do I have to go find him myself?

[40:54] No, I'll go. I'll go and I'll bring him back. And someday I'm going to remind you of this conversation. And maybe then, then you'll understand. I understand just fine. Do you? By this time tomorrow, we will be at war with Anan. May the great maker forgive me it's actually jacar thanks to forgive you so here we have jacar who is ready to kill the emperor actually i was ready i prepared myself he's ready to kill the emperor and he he's seething yeah i'll listen but i don't know and here we have londo who is oh my god we're doing this yeah we're actually going to do this he is hesitant he is reluctant to step in and make this next move car is chomping at the bit to make this next move but he's being held back by something with luck he's feeling better all they have to do is prop him up for two minutes i'll call you back well leaning into the comedy a little bit there, let me slide it in enter i like i want to watch watch this this movement just because, no i want watch how andreas literally walks and looks directly into the camera like he's looking at us like like watch how he does this.

[42:22] Enter yeah but he's clearly not talking to us like right you know but it's uh he's making contact with us how is the poor fellow he just broke the fourth wall looking forward to meeting him and opening up a dialogue his intestines looking forward to meeting you too he had a message for you given his present condition he asked me to relay that message for him i have no time for threats that was such an important thing what you just pointed out because what it did is it's now pulled us into the room with him and dr franklin for what is probably the biggest bomb in the series and whose idea was it was that andreas's idea was it the director's idea was it written in the script you have the scripts find out katrina's got the whole thing she's got like the she's got a whole book of it katrina is this was there a direction if you're following along right now was there a direction in the thing that says jakar walks towards the camera and looks in the camera and then turns around like was there a direction from that in the script or was this a director's choice or was it andreas's choice because you're you're right jeff this brings us like like you're saying that i'm like i'm more invested now in what's happening here oh it's so good well she's like i'm gonna.

[43:34] Look at what i've got and see this is fun to watch us just stare at stuff but i think this is really important yeah we're not gonna hit that sub two hour mark on this no the car toggles off the door opens and franklin enters yeah there's not a lot it says uh where earlier where jakar is practically apoplectic speaking to the wall monitor on which we see the same narnas before dialogue he's interrupted by the doorbell dialogue toggles off door opens yeah so no that was uh either the director or andreas i'm gonna go with andreas i am too i like i like that better he wanted to say he's sorry.

[44:10] He came all the way out here risked his health and endangered his life so that he could stand Stand beside a Narn in neutral territory and apologize for all the things the Centauri have done to your people. For all the things his family did. Is that swell of the music? He said you were wrong. The hatred between our people can never end until someone is willing to say, I'm sorry, and try and find a way to make things right again. To atone for our actions. He said it was the only choice he ever made in his life. And now that seems to have been taken away from him. I had... Look at his body, it's crushing him. I had no idea. No, I'm sure you didn't.

[44:48] Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of the whole damn story. He's so judgy. I know. He's so judgy. I have to wonder. I mean, he did a fantastic job. Frank was great in this scene. But why did they put those words in his mouth? Why Richard Biggs' mouth? Yeah, specifically. Yeah. I mean, I think his delivery was amazing. That was great. There was nothing wrong with it at all. I'm just curious what the thought process was. I mean, Turin's in med bay. Steven's the doctor. Who else would he have told? It would have taken nothing to be like, I need to talk to Sheridan. I need to talk to Delenn. i need to talk to whomever sheridan because they had that uh that interaction earlier yeah why put it in uh he needed more lines for the episode to justify his paycheck that makes sense also richard biggs lucking killed it he nailed it yeah it was great to stand toe-to-toe with andreas and give him that to feed off of to crying to physically crush him with those with someone else's words like because we know bruce could do it no problem but i mean biggs coming in man at at no point in my hatred for franklin that i have anything bad to say about richard biggs always appreciated his performance but this is a hallmark high water mark i this might be a new favorite moment from him as an actor this specific moment right here even the judgy like it's not over the top judge it's literally just like you stupid bastard like well it's he's just saying what we're all thinking exactly he's this up shakar and soon you won't have a planet to protect.

[46:14] Again they shot this now look at the makeup look at all how the lighting to everything it is to later on yeah they could have just shot all of this now and then played clips later on, i see a hand reaching out from amongst the stars, what is the time time for you to get a watch It has begun. Attack! Always attack! Look at that space. That looks really good. Keep them away from the colony. Keep them. There's one ship there. I don't know if you noticed this. Cutting through us like butter. They're also a wee bit bigger than we do.

[47:09] Music.

[47:17] That's goddamn gorgeous that's so good okay i want to continue this comparison okay jacar angry, vindictive franklin comes in and he says he was here to say he was sorry what jacar melted in that moment allowed himself to be softened he didn't want war he didn't even want revenge no not really he just i don't even know that it really was the apology he needed he He just wanted to, like, I don't know what it is he really wanted. He needed to be stopped. He wanted to be stopped. That's why he was angry at Sheridan, because what Sheridan tried to stop him with wasn't good enough. He needed reconciliation. You know, he needed some sort of closure to this piece, right? Okay. Here we have Londo who's walking into this very trepidatiously. He does not want to be there. Right. Does not want to be there. this thing happens and what happens to londo he hardens up he hardens his heart, jacar softens his heart londo hardens his heart and look where they end up at the end yeah he's like he go throw up right now this is such a great scene you i can't explain everything.

[48:41] Is this not the most awkward conversation in the history of sci-fi I've heard something and it makes me think there is still hope for us after all I believed you're people capable of only, murder and pain but apparently there is still a spark of decency in your genetic code it's not much of a foundation I'll grant you that face, it's a start, I never thought I would be saying this Molari but to the health of your Emperor, and perhaps to your health as well Jesus Christ.

[49:21] To the Emperor and thank you for what he's almost hoping it's poisoned, so right here do you see that moment right there he like you can almost see it in his face look at it again look at his face right here is that not the moment right there where he steals himself and hardens himself he decides that this is where he decides he has to i wonder earlier the car says it's too late it's far too late and i flippantly said it's almost never too late is this too late.

[49:52] Agree because because because okay and again what we're seeing here they may not realize it in the moment but each of them are making a choice and it has to do with their choice of how they're going to respond one makes a choice to be soft the other digs in his heels and that's where londo is right now and it sickens him and pains him and we'll continue to see it sicken and pain him later on the way veer stood up to him earlier too i have to wonder because if i play it out the quote right thing to do here would be for him to say jakar thank you i need to tell you something and i imagine in his head and part of where he's staring is he's he's thinking that through do i just tell him do it i can't tell him but you know who could tell him veer if this if veer was in my position he would do the impossible thing he would say the hard thing i don't think it's explicitly stated in any way and this is a hundred percent my own head canon but i think this is where he starts to understand veer's conscience and veer's strength is in this moment that's just in my head though there's nothing on the in the episode to you know to to back that up but yeah at this point right now he's like well double down baby all the way i think he had two thoughts one double down i'm all in or maybe there's poison in this i'm just gonna die and i won't have to live through what's gonna come i i again this is one of those i want to watch the scene with peter jersek peter as an actor what's going on in your head right then and.

[51:19] There what's going on in londo's head right there because i because i.

[51:22] Can look at that and i can interpret something on top of that and i could be completely.

[51:25] Wrong you can interpret something completely different you can interpret something completely different and we're all gonna be wrong the only one who really knows.

[51:31] Is peter jersek yeah but what was happening in that moment right there what was in londo's head hey mop up duty that right there is the thing because they've.

[51:41] Been attacked by shadows before That was weird. But those Centauri ships showing up. It's destroyed? Oh, it's gone. Who could have done this? It's interesting to see the lesser than Narn makeup. Like there's Jakars and then... Alert the home world. Prepare to attack. There's the ones they use a little dimmer lighting on. God, look at that. Sorry, I'm freaking out about this CG. This looks really good. It really does. Oh, poor Malachi. We heard. Who is it? Who's there? Guards! Guards! Interesting that Rifa will face a similar fate. Chief, the prisoner's asking to speak to you. Say, Nicky! Give me a break. You know the kind of day it's been. He says it's important. Hello, old friend.

[52:30] Hello, old friend. It's been a while. Chills again. Like, I know it was coming, and there's still chills. I'm entrusting this message to an associate of mine who was sworn to bring it to you at any cost, including his own life. There's a great darkness coming, Michael. Some of the Manbari have been waiting for it a long time. Captain. I remember in the book, To Dream in a City of Sorrows, I think is what it's called, because he sent a message to both Garibaldi and Delenn. Right. And I remember reading something that he intentionally did not name them, just in case the messages got intercepted. But I thought I heard him say Michael.

[53:06] The Centauri have launched a full-scale assault on a Narn colony in Quadrant 14. Damn it. Sector 14. The bearer of this message is one of my rangers. Some are Minbari, most are humans. They've been drawn to learn... Some are Minbari, most are humans.

[53:22] What had happened was the Minbari had stuck around. like like i said they were a joke there were a handful of them he was put in charge to rebuild the program his job as the earth ambassador was basically anyone who landed on the planet who is from earth he had to meet with them to be like like customs you know sort of a thing and so he decided to leverage that and start recruiting people would come and be like hey welcome hey have you ever thought about like i don't know fighting with a stick or anything how do you feel about robes fighting with a stick how do you feel about robes and then he started building up it was the minbari were not sold on the idea of the of the rangers there were some rathen with the the great council and some others who were and the um the one there's some he had a title like the one or something like that and i know there are people in the chat who can give it but like basically the president i guess or whatever um okay for lack of a better term not like ducat out with the great council this dude's on the planet his dying wish is dying as he died you mr sinclair will revive the rangers and naroon uh reluctantly agreed to help but.

[54:37] Nominally he was very that lends so much more weight to when naroon comes onto the station later and bows the knee to the limb yeah and calls her until za it also makes sense why he thought it should be him because he helped rebuild the order that wasn't just i'm warrior and i should take it that was yeah that i was there man i was there right right i reached out my hand, he betrayed me he knew and he betrayed me, somehow i don't think that was real rock friendship i ask that you give them every courtesy and cooperation i wish i could tell you more stay close to the vorlon and watch out for shadows. They move when you're not looking at them. We have retaken the Narn colony in Quadrant 14. It fell within a matter of hours. All of Homeworld is rejoicing. We are again what we should be. All we lack is your blessing. You stupid Macafracky. He sees the doubt in Londo. That's why he's not gonna waste his breath on Rifa.

[55:57] God and it's on top of that right like he's got the jakar thing he's carrying and then the oh it's crushing he's dead, he said continue take my people back god to the stars is that what he really said uh do we think no is that is that what we really think the emperor said to him no continue take my people back to the stars he told londo to go f himself you stupid son of like he's just no he's like what was wrong with you man he didn't say that what did he say he's gonna find out here in a moment okay okay he uses less metaphors than me but he says it here in the hall what did he say really he said that we are both damned well by we does he mean rifa and londo or londo and emperor.

[56:56] Now notice the difference here rifa is reveling in it londo is like shit mm-hmm oh we're damned dude's dead uh-huh, drop a comment down below did he mean Londo and Rifa or did he mean Londo and himself because he was about to die like so he's damned right so, did he mean yeah what did he mean we think we have an idea of how we can help I've called a council meeting oh man I hope you'll come sure then I will attend thank you for stopping me he's had your back the whole time Jakar okay.

[57:33] I just need a second to prepare for this because man this next scene is heavy stuff, but there's such a switch in londo when he comes in here and i gotta tell you and i remember thinking this the first time we saw it londo himself does not believe a word he is saying exactly this is this is a mask for him he's fallen into the he has to do this right like he has to do this even though he doesn't want to do this and he's gonna play his part yep he's too far in he He feels like he's sucked in. And he's lived his whole life playing a part. So it's very natural for him to just do it. All right, are you ready for this? Let's let this whole thing play through. About the Narn civilian population. I'm told there are over a quarter of a million of them at the colony. Now, will you let them return to the Narn homeworld? I'm afraid we can't do that. But I am sure that my government will find some productive activity. He's darker now. He's darker now. His teeth, his fangs are sharper. His hair is blacker.

[58:33] Right there we have no desire to misuse anyone he's not buying it right yet see that i should mention that i have just received permission by my government to send observers to the colony their job will be to monitor the treatment of the civilian population they are not welcome well we're sending them anyway unless you'd like to try shooting down an earth force transport personally i'd advise against it my people aren't looking for another war i believe that i may be able to convince my government to allow the colony's civilian population to leave the area and safely return to the non-homeworld as a gesture of goodwill. That would remove the need for observers from Earth. Wouldn't you agree, Captain? That's reasonable. Those conditions, yes. I'm sure your gesture of goodwill will be appreciated for what it is, Ambassador. Ambassador Shikara. Before coming here, I received a communique from my government. For a hundred For a hundred years, the Centauri occupied our world, devastated it. We swore we would never let that happen again. This attack on our largest civilian colony, damage and loss of life. They have crossed a line we cannot allow them to cross. As a result, two hours ago, my government officially declared war against the Centauri Republic. Our hope for peace is over. We are now at war. We are now at war.

[59:57] Just that cold delivery of just... Several competing families have been neutralized, leaving the emperor's nephew to claim the throne a young man who feels as we do about the future that's cartagia right yep yep yeah that's great yeah i don't know that i noticed that last time the way veer was just like for the first time in a hundred years ambassador that's our people are on the right track again i'm surprised you could have asked to be named to the royal court they would have put you in a position to become emperor yourself someday that's what you want isn't it, no i have no desire to be emperor behind the scenes the reward is nearly as great and you know what's fascinating about that he becomes emperor and actually works behind the scenes as emperor because he's relegated to nothing that's that's interesting aside from does anybody else know you're here just one other hello old friend.

[1:01:02] Music.

[1:01:11] All right brent that's the coming of shadows anything you want to go back to or touch on def this is an episode that deserves.

[1:01:19] To be watched again and again, to be paused, to be stopped, to be dissected, to be, to have everything analyzed on its own. And in the context of the story of the episode and in the context of the story of Babylon five, I don't know how long it actually took for you and I to watch a 43 minute episode because of all the pausing we did about an hour and a half, take out the technical issue we had in the middle. Okay. An hour and 24 minutes. Okay. And we've barely scratched the surface of it. We have done an entire other podcast episode on this episode, talking about the messages and we've barely scratched the surface of what is really contained within this episode. There's so much going on here. There's so much richness that is happening. I saw somebody in our council chambers chat say earlier, and I apologize. I don't, I did forget who it was who said it this i i i have a famous quote jeff we play it's in the opening of every one of our episodes these days i know where you're going this is where babylon five becomes babylon five the the person who said it if you're in the council chambers and you said this please shout it out so i can say that you're the one who said it this is the episode where babylon five becomes babylon five yep the the the idea that jms would take this as the single episode and stand it up as the episode to show somebody to encapsulate what Babylon 5 is all about.

[1:02:46] Totally get it. And thinking of all the future episodes that come after this one, maybe into the fire, maybe, maybe, but this episode, oh my gosh, there's so much to this episode. And the thing that I keep going back to, and I tried to track it and I'm sorry, maybe I did. Maybe I should have just shut up and let it play out and then talk about it here. The juxtaposition of Londo and Jakar's journeys. Yeah, I'm glad we hit it as it was happening because there's so much. Because they both started in exactly the opposite places. Came to a crossroads at the same time and wound up on the opposite side of each other at the very end. I mean, when Jakar was saying, we are at war, could you not hear the reluctance in his voice?

[1:03:27] The grief in his voice. It's the same grief, the same reluctance that we heard in Londo's voice at the beginning where he's going, are we really going to do this? Are we really going to go take out the, we're at war. I can't, like, this is not what I wanted. This is where we are. Mm-hmm londo and jakar experience more character development in this one single episode than so many characters across so many other series and franchises they should be embarrassed it's yeah the the the ride they both go on yeah there are there are people who are alive that could not survive the emotional turmoil that they went through in this one episode it's not the first time we've said this about an episode of Babylon five, maybe the first time on the second watch, but that was an hour and a half long episode that fit into 43 minutes seamlessly and smoothly and comfortably, which is why JMS is a master master at this. It's, it's, it's, I call it the 10 pounds of story in a five pound story bag. But so often that happens, it's bloated and it's too fast and you're exhausted. I can't believe it when this episode, it's how is this It's already over.

[1:04:40] What no you also when you look at the timeline as we go through the episode you're like there's still that much episode left right all this is happening at the same time yeah if i can put a cap on what i was saying jakar almost becomes londo okay let's talk about this in context of where we know that they go okay the car goes on and becomes a religious icon yeah the guy who become who literally makes himself a servant of londo his greatest enemy to keep him safe a guy who serves londo by killing him in the end yeah to free him of the keeper right law jacar almost becomes what londo the tragic tragic character of tragic characters yeah like shakespeare did not have as good of a tragic character as londo malari yeah jms i said it you made one better than shakes you did it the difference between londo and jacar the difference for Jakar is when the moment came, he allowed himself to be softened, not to be hard. He didn't dig his heels in. He allowed himself to be softened. And this decision that we see in this episode is the decision that changes everything for Jakar going forward.

[1:05:51] When I think forward as to what all's going to happen, it will trace back to this is the moment Jakar changed. The moment when richard biggs is standing opposite of him he says he just wanted to apologize and andreas melt collapses what a powerful episode jeff it's so fast and then everything else to go with it right and in the canon and the series of babylon five what's so fascinating is when we first saw the dream the image of the the choking you know we took it with a grain of salt yeah what is that I don't know. Okay. In this one, it is crystal clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that that is an expression of the deepest doubt.

[1:06:35] Seeded hatred possible between those two but the story is so intense and rich because that moment in reality is the deepest expression of love from jakar to londo but the journey is so long to get there and i love how we see it now and it's programmed in our minds just the hatred that outright hatred they will have for each other and it doesn't end that way at all but we're close uh Just to clean this up, it was Ben in our council chambers who said this. He said, you joke about this is where Babylon 5 becomes Babylon 5, but here it is true. Coming of Shadows is the first time Babylon 5 really shows its full potential. There are better episodes ahead, even in this season. I agree with Twilight Struggle being at number one, because it is. But this is so far and beyond anything up until now. It is a masterpiece.

[1:07:24] Jeff it wouldn't shock me if at the end if we did a if we did a top you know episodes of the entire series this is one of them we did do that actually i think it was this is one of them and this one my my respect and i feel it is for you too so i'm going to say this on your behalf our respect for this episode was really high coming into it it has skyrocketed whole new going out of it on a second watch something we could not have picked up on on a first watch only by having a second watch could we have done this absolutely we've already talked some about messages but brett this is a unique episode because uh jms actually tells us what the message is does he how close are we well so what did he say versus us i'll read it here and i love this because so often like oh he was saying this he was nope he just outright says it okay great babylon five as a whole explores choice consequences and responsibility for me jms a large measure of defining who we are is what we are willing to do and what we want and the means by which we pursue those goals the other theme of course is sacrifice which recurs throughout the show in one form or another the importance of one single person.

[1:08:44] And the ability of that person to act as a fulcrum, intentionally or otherwise, upon which vast events can turn. Choice. You can't fight City Hall. And that is actually not true. You can fight. And sometimes you can even win. It's about choice. And we saw so many choices happen. I'm sorry. What did I say? What was the defining difference between Londo and Jakar in this particular moment? One chose to allow himself to be softened. The other chose to harden his heart yeah all about choice it's a choice yeah we're gonna get some comments jeff if i can head these off okay and you guys want to send in these comments go for it you want to send in emails go for it we're gonna get them i promise you we are you i'm not going to tell you that your experience is false fake or not true but i will tell you here at the outset you choose your response yep it is not forced upon you every single time you choose it Good, bad, hard, soft. You choose your response. Offense. You choose offense every single time. Yep. Sometimes, and most of the time, a lot of times, you're justified in it, but you still choose it. It's a choice. I will say that our choice is often influenced by social programming, our traumas that we've experienced, things like that. But ultimately, it is a choice.

[1:10:07] And because it's a choice, you have the choice to make the other choice. It is not forced upon you. I'm not saying you're wrong for making that choice. I'm just recognizing it as a choice. As an individual who experienced trauma, I won't qualify or quantify the trauma, but who experienced it and a trauma that gets activated in my life or for a while got activated on a very regular basis.

[1:10:32] And I, and I, and I did, I had reactions that were, I was offended. I was hurt. I lashed out in anger at times and it felt like I didn't have a choice. Um.

[1:10:41] My choice wasn't necessarily in the moment. My choice was more macro than that. My choice was to allow my trauma to be processed and to begin healing it so that I wasn't immediately activated by it. So I think what I, the context I want to offer as a reframe on that, like, it's not just a very simple, I choose this action now in this moment, but we choose how we deal, how we address or not address or acknowledge those things that influence our ability to make a choice in the moment well said well said does a lot of therapy that helped me be able to say that and i strongly encourage people to engage it is well worth every dollar i spent yes yes and your therapist is enjoying his time on the boat this week absolutely no question jeff do you have anything else about this episode you want to talk so much we've we've talked we've done so much already and we're going to barely scratch the surface at all but i'll give you a final i'm just going to say at this point if i say anything more it's it's amazing this is great i'm gonna i'm gonna jump to the next part of this whole thing and cut a lot of this out this is the number one episode i'm ranking it at number one it would be if i did anything else everyone should unsubscribe and send horrible things to my house yeah this was i can i can give you his address if you need it folks. This is a freaking masterclass. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This one deserves a third watch someday. Jeff, I could see a, we've, we've said Babylon fire for the third time will not happen. Correct.

[1:12:11] I could see us possibly, I'm not committing us to doing this. I want to be very clear. I'm not saying Jeff and I are going to do this in the future. I could see us doing a hitting the highlight episodes as we go through for a deeper dive. I could see us doing something like that maybe in the future this would be on that list automatically if we were to ever do something like that yeah yeah absolutely by the way that's going to make soulmates uh number two geometry of shadows number three um and race through dark places number four and i believe that's points of departures at number five i think so and i think how that goes right now well jeff that's going to do it for coming of shadows i know i'm sorry i have to hey jeff that's not going to do it for coming of shadows but that's going to do it for our discussion today of coming of shadows because there's so much more that really could be dived in dived in dove in divin divin we got a new episode on deck next week we're not new episode but you know what i mean episode that frankly jeff was really funny to listen to you and i in the last episode try to try to even pronounce the name of this episode so dumb grappus grope rob grope uh grappus was where we landed grappus, we landed a grappa but how could we have done that we heard it one time on an episode a while ago that we didn't like even like listening to her watching right what's wrong with us.

[1:13:29] Jeff, do you remember what your prediction was for Grappus? I do. That's funny because like, I'm looking at my prediction. I'm like, what am I even talking about? But that's good context. Cause we couldn't pronounce the name. Actually, actually, I need to say mine first because it makes yours just a little bit more funny. Okay. All right. We were just, let's put this in context. Okay. We were trying to figure out how to just say the freaking word. Like, what is this? We have no idea what this is. And you said, okay, Brent, what is this? Okay. Really? This is, this is it. This is where the far fig Nugent comes into the flim flam and inverts the power cumpler for the snarf. And so that I said, actually, this is where Garibaldi gets deep into the med lab and says the snozzberries taste like snozzberries.

[1:14:12] And then I said, oh, it's like a new alien race, like the drossy or something that'll have some sort of a lasting impact. And then I bounced off that. You did. I bounced off of that. And I actually quite love this. I said, you know what it is? It's another Zathras. Like it's the same race. It's just like, it's like his brother or something. It's, it's, it's, you have Zathras and you have grappas. That makes so much sense. And then you quipped, you did this, you quipped. Everyone's going to call him the news. Like they're going to call him Zathras. And he's like, no, no, no. I am not Zathras. I am grappas.

[1:14:47] So close, Jeff. You're so close. Oh my God. You're so close. Oh God. Well, people, we're not going to see Grappus next week. We're going to see Gropos next week right here on Babylon 5 for the second time. Thank you so much for being here. This has been a long one, and I feel like we could go so, so much longer on it. But thank you for being here with us. If you haven't already, please subscribe. Please rate us, review. And I think specifically on this one, comment. Please have some conversation. You can go to our website at Babylon5first.com. It's the number five in the word first. We have a contact form there that, that comes into our, our shared email. Like let's, let's have more of a conversation. I want to never stop talking about this episode, at least not until the long twilight struggle comes up. Thank you for being here. Please share this show with someone else. This is a great one to kick them off on. I'm going to go ahead and wrap this one up. Brent. Thank you so much. Everyone watching, listening. Thank you. We'll see you next time. Hey, Jeff. So close. Yeah. Hey. Hello, old friend. Hello is this a recording or am i in her is this a phone call video call hello whatever you do don't tell anyone about what i just told you i never will, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something.