April 3, 2023

The Fall of Night

Kosh lays it out for everyone to see

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

We get to see Kosh!! We get to see Kosh!! And, as far as Jeff and Brent are concerned, Londo is beyond redemption.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5first

Producers: Jeffrey H. Adam Pasztory Addryc Andrew ClubPro70 David Blau Guy Kovel John Koniges Nathanael Myer Peter Schuller

All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.

Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I just watched the season two finale of Babylon five for the first

Brent: time. And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time. And I've also watched. The season two finale for the very first time.

But I haven't seen anything passed to this point hand on a Bible, God's honest truth. Jeff and I are two veterans. Star Trek. No one's gonna believe that. I've not actually watched beyond this episode. Now that I've said that because you said that. Exactly. Yeah. Like you, yeah, you just, but it's true. I've, I've really, this is as far in the show as I've seen, I have theories about where things are going and I have no idea if I'm right or not, although I'm pretty good at this game Anyway.

Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching this show for the very first time. However, we're taking those skills we've developed as Star Trek podcasters, that over analytical lens that we apply looking for hope and morals and meanings and messages very deep within sci-fi. And we're applying that lens to Babylon five and just trying to see how much we really like

Jeff: this series.

And like Brent said, we apply that analytical lens that we've learned to Star Trek podcasters. That does not mean we're here to talk about Star Trek. So to keep us on track, we play the rule of three. That means each one of us gets up to three references, a piece in each episode. That's it. Three. One of those plays.

Brent: No

Jeff: substitutions.

Brent: Exchanges are refund.

Jeff: Brent, Jeff, I've got a five star review for us. Oh yes. This is off of Apple Podcast. Devin 13 says, I've been a lifelong treky. I remember watching TOS with my dad as a little girl in the sixties who somehow missed Babylon five. I'm enjoying discovering this show right along with the podcasters.

Great job.

Brent: We got another newbie out there. Yeah. New person listening out there. That's cool. I, because you just. Jeff, I think we both assume that the, the people that are listening to this show, like 99% of them are people who've been through this before and they're laughing at us the entire way because they know exactly what happens.

But it's nice to know that other people are on the journey out there with us. Like, that's, that's very nice to know. And by the way, and I, I just, uh, this person, you know, mentioned growing up as a little girl female, we know just by our demographics, that is a very small percentage of our demographics. So shout out, uh, I wanna, I'm gonna, I wanna level that playing field a little bit as much as we can, although I, I certainly understand the pool demographically

Jeff: speaking.

Right. I also feel like I've got a special, uh, kind of mixed relationship already with Devin 13 and that I grew up watching TOS with my mom as a little boy in the seventies. So, I mean, we're basically related.

Brent: Yeah. It's like grew up across the street from each

Jeff: other. Yeah. I mean, it's not as close as you can get.

There you go. I only have two this week and I wanted to keep 'em short because we kind of have an episode to talk about. It's a little bit of a big deal. So on YouTube, David Brown left a comment recently about my predictions about Anna shared in Sister and what I believe are gonna happen, all

Brent: predictions that no way is true.

Jeff: I I am, I am gonna drink so much champagne on the day that, that like, literally when that happens, I'm gonna stop the world and just be like that guy, you know? Yeah. Ah, I'll do that. I'll by myself with no one watching, but I'll love every second of it. But David Brown says, Sheridan's wife was played by Tasha Ya's sister doesn't count against me.

That's David. Okay, fair enough.

Brent: Did he buzz himself? Did he actually say buzz? He didn't, but I'm still, I love it when people buzz themselves in their messages.

Jeff: Go ahead. It is the greatest. That's all I said. I thought that was pretty cool. I never did that math on her, all through all this. Oh, you,

Brent: oh, you didn't know that's who that was.

No. Yeah. Yeah. I knew that. I knew that. That's not news to me. I knew that

Jeff: she's the, uh, she is the center of one of the most awkward memes of data that you'll ever see on the internet. I'll just leave it at that.

Brent: You know, you know who I always tend to think she is when a first see her is, uh, the lady that played, uh, Sarah Connor in the films.

Totally. Uh, Linda,

Jeff: Linda Carter. No, not Linda. That's, that's Wonder Woman. Um,

Brent: Jeff was looking it up right now. Literally

Jeff: losing, I'm all of, all of our geek cred right

Brent: now. I'm, I'm going to VA this entire time. Uh, but anyway, she, she definitely reminds me of Linda something. It's probably not even Linda.

I can't believe it's taking me this long. Waiting . Suddenly Jeff's internet is failing, right?

Jeff: I don't know. Linda Hamilton. There it

Brent: is. I told you it was Linda. Linda Hamilton. Uh, yeah, Linda Hamilton. Uh, she, that's who I always think it is at first, and then I'm like, no, it's the girl that played Tasha Y's sister.

And I'm like, wait, did Linda Hamilton play Tasha Y's sister? No, no, no. That's a different person altogether. Yeah.

Well, Jeff, you know, right there, along with our rule of three game, there is another game that we like to play right here on Babylon five for the very first time, where at the end of the show we try to guess what next week's episode is going to be about based on the title of loan. And this is the spot, the episode where we revisit last week and see what we said this week's episode was going to be about.

So Jeff, What did you say the fall of night was gonna be

Jeff: about? Well, not, not much of what actually happened. . Well, I mean at a high level I did. So I figured that the Sonari were gonna attack somewhere and it was gonna pull Earth and the Menari into the war. And I, and I'm pretty sure I implied that it was gonna be, um, like Earth and Minbar against the Sari Earth and the minbar against the Cary.

A big battle sin. Nah, I lost it. Real. I can't freestyle I was wrong. Is the answer to that question. Brent, what did you think this one was gonna be

Brent: about? I gotta be honest. I think I just took the easy way out. I said this is gonna be the start of the Great war. And I said that the shadows were, were gonna come out of hiding because it's night, which we could argue if that's what happened because that very last shot of the episode shows.

Everybody knows what's going on out there. So it's possible that I don't, I don't know, maybe I get a quarter of credit on that one. Uh, but start of the great war. I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of a gimme. Yeah. You know, uh, and Ava clearly said the Great War was upon us now, like at the end of the

Jeff: episode.

So yeah, that avan by the generation really set the tone. Ava needs to

Brent: do way more voiceover work, like way more narration. I found that part so compelling. And back at the beginning of the season, remember when she's doing, it's been eight days since, uh, ambassador Lynn went into Cocoon and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, I, I could do more, more of her voiceover stuff, telling me what's going on.

Jeff: Well, I'll just say this earlier today you were talking about how you've never, you haven't watched ahead of this in any way. I have a little bit, um, just not the show, but I've seen the opening credits. To season three, cuz I had to pull the music down cuz Yeah, I have to have that ready before our season three episode.

And let me just say that your wish may be granted. Which

Brent: one? Just say that. Can't tell me. Can you? Nope. I'm just gonna say your wish may be granted, my wish may be granted. Okay. You're going to explain that. Jeff, let me ask you this, since you've seen it and I haven't. Yeah. Is this one of those things where like we need to give it a couple of episodes before we are allowed to really watch the opening credits or like, so

Jeff: I don't know.

I don't know enough Cause I was, I was trying really hard to find a version without narration and so I basically, I heard maybe the first six seconds, like 20 times I didn't hear the whole thing. Okay. And then I found a version without the full narration. So I don't know. I am going to wait, I don't know, probably three or four episodes and then I'll.

Brent: My plan. Okay. So, so let, let see if I can't play a quick game. If this gets way too long, cut me off. Okay. All right. Wishes that I have redemption of lawn Mallari, although that's no longer a wish. Lawn is dead to me. Um,

I got nothing else.

Jeff: That's your only wish.

Brent: That's really tall. Tall. You Winters comes back and she's the bad guy. Evil Talia. Yeah, evil Talia comes back. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. Evil Talia comes back. Well, you just wished, I don't know if that was a wish though, as much as a prediction.

Jeff: I have no idea.

You really gotta think about how you wanna spend your wishes. You did make a wish that, uh, the Devon would knew. Do more voiceover and narration. Okay. There's a long list of video games that will give you that. She's very prolific. Video game voice actor. Is she really? Right. Very cool. She's, she's a lot of the voices in.

Actually, is she? Yeah, I think. Really?

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. I keep, I keep trying to get into that game and I've not been able

Jeff: to, I was able to, like 10 years ago when it was , when it was a relevant game,

Brent: I so like, like my video gaming, like, I was really big into like Nintendo and then Super Nintendo, and then I stopped.

Right. That's a big game. And, and I had this big huge gap. I played, I played a bit of Xbox when Halo came out. Mm-hmm. not much, but just a, a bit of Xbox, a little bit of 360 with Halo as well. And then I did nothing until the pandemic hit and we bought a switch and then we went back and started playing Zelda, playing Zelda Breath With Wild, which is like, in my opinion, probably the best game you've ever met.

Like, the controls are just so smooth and it's so slick. And I've tried to go backwards now and play Skyrim and I just, I can't get into it. Yeah. It's just Tinky. Anyway, now what we're here to discuss, um,

Jeff: This is like a nice sneaker about preview though as we're talking a little bit about what we're doing for season three.

A little sneak preview of what's gonna be happening right here next week, because next week we have a special episode where we're gonna be wrapping up season two just like we did 22 weeks ago. Holy god man. A long time ago when we wrapped up the first season and a big part of that wrap up episode, we're doing another giveaway.

Brent's gonna grab it and show it off, but he found and it it, look at that. It's an incredible action figure. Captain John Sheridan. A Babylon five station Babylon five Big John Sheridan. And he's pointing. He's got the Sheridan Point going on. Yeah. But if you want to be entered into the giveaway, the drawing for the giveaway for this John Sheridan.

And if you're listening to this on Apple Podcast, Spotify, overcast good pods anywhere. That's awesome. We love having you here. But pop on over to YouTube, hop onto our Twitter at Babylon. First, you'll see a picture of this bad boy. All you need to do is go to one of those podcast places, leave us a review, take a screenshot, send it to us at Babylon first, or our email Babylon five first gmail.com.

It's number five in the word first gmail.com. And you'll be entered in the giveaway for Captain John Sheridan.

Brent: Jeff, that I just wanna note, uh, toys being what they are, sometimes I'm, I'm looking at this and, uh, Now it says that it's Captain John Sheridan in an Earth Force uniform. Okay. That's very specific.

That's what it says. But I'm looking at this uniform and while it looks somewhat similar, it is not what we have seen yet so far. This uniform is black with a gold patch and he has this gold, uh, status bar. Mm-hmm. or the thing you tried to trade away. He's like, eh, I got 20 of 'em. It's fine. And then he has a belt buckle that says five on it.

And then he is got a couple of arm patches, but I don't see anything on there that says Earth four. Like he doesn't have the ea F thing, um, or EFA deal. And, uh, I gotta tell you, Bruce, box Litner is a whole lot more handsome than this thing than he is. This is an action figure,

Jeff: but let me ask you the important question about that action figure.

Does it have, uh, the correct attributes? Well, I'd say it

Brent: has the same attributes that every action figure has. looks like a Ken Doll, Jeff. That's what I'm saying. ,

Jeff: right. Well, that totally works, but, uh,

Brent: yeah, I, I'll be interested. Do they go to all Black, his uniform, right? Or is

Jeff: this just like a, I wonder People got weird or I wonder.

It's another thing that Deep Space Nine apparently stole from Babylon five where they switched uniforms part way through. I just burned one on that. I didn't help myself. Speaking of burning ones, let's get to the episode itself. We've been talking about what we thought it was. We've been hinting about a couple little pieces, Brent, for the people that are watching along with us, like Devin 13, for the people who haven't seen this in a really long time, or the people who were just listening for some really weird reason not watching the show, why don't you tell our incredible community what the fall of night is about?

Brent: This episode opens on some star Furies out in space conducting training exercises. Think Top gun in space and you'll get the picture, but it's not just regular top gun training. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. They're specifically training against sent tactics. More on that later, Sheridan gets called back to the barn to deal with an emergent situation.

It seems that Jaar was right. The Sonari have begun to move beyond NA territory into the Dsy and Pacara territories. Lando says to Sheridan, don't you take that Don with me, you peasant, when Sheridan questions him about it, and he tries to sell some BS line about them trying to stabilize the whole area by developing a buffer zone around their space.

Yeah, no one's buying that. Not even lawn.

Hey, do you remember that thing back in like season one, maybe early season two, where we said that all the new people coming on board the station at the beginning of the episode, those are always the bad guys. Well, that motif is back because two representatives of the Ministry of Peace have just arrived on Babylon five to investigate the Sonari.

It actually turns out what they're really doing is they're just making a final check before signing a formal alliance with the Sari. So right about now would be a perfect time for a NA and Heavy cruiser that escaped being destroyed during the war to just show up on Babylon fives doorstep asking for sanctuary.

We'll share it in grants it, but the secret isn't kept for long as those Ministry of Peace guys find out. And then Lawn finds out, and then Sonari Prime finds out and they send their own battleship to confront the narn. Sheridan's promised Sanctuary to the Narn ship and he instructs the star theories to escort the ship to the jump gate during the getaway Keer.

Uh, so Keer is a guy that was introduced in the middle or at the beginning of this season. He's been in the credits for every single episode. We've only seen him in like six episodes or so, and he is just kind of around every once in a while and pops up. You really wouldn't know who he is unless you point him out.


he sees a set, he sees a shadow ship in hyperspace and goes to check it out, but in doing so, he gets all burnt up, but not before launching his own flight recorder back through the jump gate, and this is gonna come back into play later. We'll put a pin in that one for now, as for the Narn ship, Sheridan says, Hey, once they're gone, they're not my problem anymore, but that's not good enough for the Ministry of Peace or for this entire battle.

Who opens fire on both the Nan ship and on Babylon five itself? Well, Sheridan fire's back as he should and it winds up destroying the entire Centara Battleship like blows it up real good and Oh yeah,

but that's not so good because Sheridan knows that this is just what the Sari need to expand their war even more. The Ministry of Peace guys is trying to step in and calm the whole situation down. Ordering Sheridan to issue an apology since after all, you know, the sari's shot first. Yeah, Sheridan, sorry.

All right. Sorry that there's dirty rotten tar shot first, and sorry that there are a bunch of D back. I can't say that this is a family show. Sheridan gets all dressed up in his best duds and takes a very public transportation over to the garden where he's supposed to issue this apology, and it turns out that it's some Alister event that everybody is there for.

So as Sheridan walks through the station alone, taking public transportation, he's given all sorts of side eye from the Sonari civilians on board, and one of them leaves him a little gift into transport shuttle carrying Sheridan, who happens to be all alone. Well, Sheridan sees it just in time and jumps out of the transport before the bomb explodes, and he begins to fall or floats or something.

But whatever he is doing, it's gonna be really bad when he hits the ground because that thing's rotating at like 60 miles an hour or something like that. He's just gonna be squished. Well, they're not, not gonna be able to get any rescue there in time to save him. So Dalin turns and begs Kosh to intercede.

Because he knows what's at stake. K says, okay, and he exits his encounter suit, and it turns out he's an angel. An angel are angels, and everyone who looks at them sees whatever DNA it is that they believe in. He's an angel. This must be what he meant when he said that everyone would recognize him if they saw him outside of the encounter suit.

Well, Kosh catches Sheridan sets him down safely. It's kind of a shame that Kash had to reveal himself because now that might actually trigger the shadows into going into war sooner than everybody's ready for them. Let's just hope they don't find out. Oh, except you remember that flight recorder from Keer.

Yeah, that's made its way into the hands of some very public journalists who have said on public TV as the episode ends. Hey, there's this weird spider looking chip thingy out in the middle of hyperspace. What's up with that? Jeff, what did you think of the season two finale? The fall of night?

Jeff: I was right.

I was right. The shadows killed Keffer. They did it a couple episodes off. That's all. That's all , but, and I feel so vindicated. I mean, it's just, ah, it feels good. This must be like, you feel like almost every episode was, I got it. Now, seriously, this, this was incredible. This was a, this was a episode that started really, really slow in.

This episode follows a little model. I'm gonna start calling the infection curve, where the first 28 minutes just kind of move forward word a little bit, and then it just gets going and boom. Huge stuff, right. That happened. This was not though the season ender that I expected to be honest, but in a weird way.

Okay. In a weird way. It was like the season ender that we deserve, , Uhhuh, you know? So it makes sense in every way. Were you surprised at all the earth showed up and we're like, no, actually we're, we're hooking up with the Sonari. Like,

Brent: no, not at all. That didn't, I was, I'm surprised that this whole, um, entrance of this Ministry of Peace thing, like I would've suspected that this would've just been Earth Force itself or.

Something to do with Cycore, with the backing of Earth Force. Earth Dome, you know, the president, uh, I, I, I'm not entirely sure what to really make of this Ministry of Peace thing just yet. Uh, because that really seemed more like a one off thing that sort of just came in one episode. And if that's,

if that's taking on the new form, like if that has replaced Home Guard or that's repla, like whatever that is, and I, I still don't know what to make of it. I was surprised that that was the thing that that was used, that was the vehicle that was used. But I wasn't surprised that we did that at all. Like, they came on and I was like, I don't, I don't know why, but I don't trust these two.

Like, they haven't given me any reason to. I just. There's, there's up to no good. There's gonna be a twist. And as soon as it was shown what it was, you're like, there it is. Yep, of course. Got it. Of course

Jeff: it was. Yeah. Like the minute that Jaar tried to talk to Wells and he's like, oh, um, ah. I'm like, oh, guess yeah.

Cause this is why. But I think, did you probably read it before, but it might have been a long time ago, but did you ever read Orwell's 1984?

Brent: I have not. I read, um, I think we were assigned to it in school once. Mm-hmm. and I tried to read the Cliff notes and I made it like halfway through the Cliff notes.

Okay. And I was like, I don't care. And I just. I think I still got like a C on the assignment.

Jeff: It's not bad. But in one of the things they do in that book is they have a series of ministries that handle the opposite of what they are. So you have the, the Ministry of Truth, which is the propaganda machine that does nothing but spew lies.

And then you have the Ministry of Peace, which they also call mini packs in, in the book. But the Ministry of Peace handles war. Yeah. And part of the mythology in 1984, I guess that's the right word, is there's a constant war that's happening mm-hmm. , that that, that no one knows for sure is actually happening.

Like it's just on the media and they use it to control the populace. But they do that externally with the Ministry of Peace, controlling the war against the other continents. But internally, they have like the night watch thing where they, they call them thought police and thought crime, and they go after people for the things that they think they're thinking.

Right. So to me, like when the Ministry of Peace or mini packs showed up, it's like, yep, this is right from those pages, this is gonna be what it is. Home Guard, I'm positive, is a tool of theirs and they're gonna use them to set different things up, you know, or the anti earth, whatever things. But it's gonna be the Ministry of Peace that comes in to set things up.

And just like Wells was in this, he's like, man, we're not here for war. We're here to protect earth and Earth's interest. We're here to maintain the peace. And how do you argue with that? Sounds great, but I think in this episode it would be dumb to say that like, I mean, we sucked.

Brent: Josh. Jeff, what? Hey, Jeff.

Jeff, I'm sorry. All right. Uh, the Guy Wells. Mm-hmm. , make sure piece. And what was the name of the guy who wrote the book? 1984

Jeff: Or, well, George, or well, hmm. Yeah, probably little something there. I. That's good. That's really good. But Brent, we saw Kosh,

Brent: like we saw K, like we saw lawn.

Jeff: Yeah. . We got a full fall exposure.

Full Monte. And I didn't realize this, and maybe this is just me and my type that I am, but K is handsome. Squidward , the way they did the makeup and the head thing, I was just like, squidward.

Brent: The, his human form looked like my son's karate teacher . Hello Mr. V. If you're out there watching somewhere, uh, it, it just looked like him.

Jeff: It was interesting how everyone's deity or angel or whatever had the same body. They just like changed their,

Brent: well, they all, all basically have the same body. Like they all have the same torso and head, and two ha two arms, two legs, two hands, two feet. Kind of a thing,

Jeff: so why not slap on some cool wings and call it good?

Yeah. You know. What about you Brent? What did you, uh, what were your impressions of this one? You know, I

Brent: liked this episode. Uh, season two ended on a high note for me. You know, this was the episode that should have come after two episodes ago. Like, like if, if we could have flip flopped last week's episode for the one before, just flip flop their order, it would've flowed a lot better to me.

Um, although I, I can understand wanting like a, just a breath, you know, but between, um, between everything, I think we're just now really getting the idea that Sinclair is incredibly important to this whole deal. And I mean, Sheridan, yes, that guy Sheridan, uh, Sinclair I'm sure is very important to this whole deal too, but No, but Sheridan like, Important enough to make KO reveal himself to everyone in a very public situation.

Like that's how important he is. Right. Uh, and I'm, I'm interested to find out why at Sheridan, why is Sheridan the one who like it has to be him? You know, we go through that whole episode last week, like, remember, you are the right person in the right place at the right time, which I find very interesting.

I was thinking about that after we stopped recording last week. Yeah, well, right time. And we know about Baby one, four and J

Jeff: like, and time just in general.

Brent: In time, yeah. And how Zaps is supposed to be from the future and Sinclair's bouncing around out there, whatever, whatever. Like, yeah, yeah. Just saying.

Just saying. Anyway. Um, but overall I like to, I like what you said, the, in what, what'd you call it? The infection model? Yeah. Like the, or the, like the first, the first bit of it's real slow and then boy, how does it take off? I didn't mind the first bit of it. I just, it, it just felt like ramping, you know? Uh, but I can certainly see why you would say that.

But I, uh, I enjoyed it. I, I thought it was really good. Um, I'm gonna make a statement here in a little bit about the ministry piece, guys. I think that's gonna surprise you, but I'm not quite there just yet. Um, lawn continues to be dead to me. Like when he comes in, you know, to Sheridan, Sheridan's like, what the fuck do you think you're doing?

And lawn's like, don't you take that tone of voice with me more, you know? And I'm like, dude, Lando, you're overstepping it. But the conversation that followed actually made me stop the video as I was watching it. Really, the conversation between Gar Baldi and Sheridan. Mm-hmm. talking about lawn. Where, you know, Gar Baldi says what we're all thinking, lawn's not the same guy, and I wanna put my hands around his throat and pop his head like ait.

He's like, but you kinda also feel sorry for him if you'd ever stop being afraid. And what I thought was real interesting was, while Gar Baldi definitely wanted to just punch lawn in the face, he also saw the person in the midst of his crap. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, he's like, no, he's afraid.

Like all of this is a mask for him. This is not real. This is not, he knows that this is too far. He knows that this is wrong. And, and the reason he's acting out like this is because he's afraid, you know, if, if you, if you meet a dog that is cornered, do you get mad at the dog for Starling at you? Exactly.

If you are trying to approach the dog, you're trying to help the dog, but it thinks it, you know that it thinks you are a threat, you're cornering it and it's Starling. Are you mad at the dog for that? Not really. It's kind of like the way I just, I thought it was so interesting that garabaldi of all people, delin, I would expect this from Lanier, I would expect this from, but Gar Baldi of all people was like, he's in the midst of his stuff right now, man.

That's what it is. And he never lost sight of the person, which I just, I found it real

Jeff: fascinating and I thought the whole scene was, it was a great example of show and tell, cuz Garabaldi told us the whole thing. Look into his eyes, you know? He's terrified. What did he say? Uh, he's uh, he's on a wild horse and he's afraid he is gonna fall off.

So he is grabbing on even tighter. Yeah. Great metaphor. But before that, just, I mean, oh my god, what an incredible, just massive performance by, by Peter Jik when he's, you know, he's bloviating and he's yelling, you know, how dare Are you? Yeah. But his eyes, when you see that scene and you look at his eyes, he's, he is, he's.

Terrified. And he's embarrassed. Like there's a moment where Sheridan kind of turns away and LO's like, oh my God, I can't believe I just did that. But it's just like, it is these tiny inflections in his eyes that happen and you, you feel it. Yeah. And then Garabaldi tells you, and you're right, he is dead.

And I think the moment, the moment in this episode, he died for me forever, was during Ava's voiceover. At the end when he's in the council chambers, just yelling and pumping his fist. I'm like, okay, this guy's garbage. He's, he is, he's, yeah. Yeah. He's just, he's

Brent: irredeemable. We said that last, last week or two weeks ago.


Jeff: irredeemable. Yeah. At this point, without question, without question. Now he, I'm gonna burn number two. He's the Nick la Carno that could have been Tom Paris, but was too irredeemable that they had to create an entirely new character.

Already two down.

Brent: I've got all three of mine. .

Jeff: You, you mentioned though, um, linear. Yeah. And seeing linear make an observation like this are sidekicks. Real quick conversation on our side kicks. Yeah. A I still want the spin off, so I feel like, I feel like we had the scene from which the spinoff can be built.

Yeah. When they were in the bar being like, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. Right. , I love, I love the scene. All right. Same time next

Brent: week, same time next week. Yep. All right. You gotta, what, how many times have they had that exact same conversation at, up to this point?

Jeff: My question on the, my second, first watch through, I was just like, that's awesome that they have to be in a wide awake nightmare.

You know, just, I mean, even Lanier, just like Di Walks in is like, oh, do this, do this, do this. And by the way, I decided to transform myself into a hybrid Min bar. And that's cool. Just please support me and, oh, I'm not a seti anybody. Oh my gosh. Flying by the seat of his pants and veer. We've seen the stuff that Veers had to deal with.

Well, I,

Brent: I mean, I mean, that's an interesting thought about linear right now. Right? So Lanre comes on board station and he is going to serve Sati to Lynn. Yeah. This is his, I mean, he's come up, he's worked for this, and he's, and he knows he's still not to that level yet, you know, and then she gives it up.

Now he's gonna stay loyal to her, but he didn't go that route. Mm-hmm. , he didn't go in the cocoon himself. He's still who he is. You know, and, and he's had to defend her repeatedly for doing this. Like, you've gotta wonder, is there a spot of him that, albeit loyal to Dalin and very willing to follow her into the gates of hell, he's still sitting there going, what the hell are you doing, lady?

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , because he's gotta pick up all the pieces right. In that, in that, um, and now for a word, when she broke down in front of the reporter and probably, you know, went off, he probably had to step in and be like, okay, sorry Ms. Toman, let me walk you back to this area. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. All those things, I mean, and it's just what a horrible, horrible position to be in.

But the second time I watched this episode, I thought maybe they were communicating in some sort of a code like passing. That'd be cool. Passing information back and forth. Yeah. It just seemed, it's that whole, you know, uh, hey, let's head to the corner. I'm gonna have a cigarette, turn my back to you. You have a cigarette.

And I say something about the matches that I used, which trigger, you know, it's like the old spy craft kind of stuff.

Brent: Jeff, if that turns out to be right, that's gonna be awesome. Like, I think I, I really hope you are right about that, because that sounds like I want that to like, don't come up to like the end of season three.

Like, I, I wanna see them do this several more times throughout the season and just have no clue. And then all of a sudden you realize what they're doing. I hope

Jeff: that's the way it works. They put a whole thing together. This is how they get to work behind their ambassadors backs and help Le Nan, you know, or, or do whatever, right?

I was talking last week about how I think Veer is gonna be the hero of the nan the Nan Rebellion. And this is, this is kind of how it all. Right. It'd be cool if that, but my, but my, my, the sad thing that I had in the spinoff show, cuz there, there it is. Like from that scene, you can launch the whole show.

Here's the sidekicks. I am both disappointed and relieved though that Netta was not a part of that. My guess. Yeah. The whole crew behind the scenes, everybody has the same feelings that we do about new Netta and they're just like, okay. Failed experiment. Kars just said us in Jaar, so he's just not gonna have an anti attache anymore.

Just sad because she was so, was

Brent: so great.

I don't, I don't want to talk about it, Jeff. No, I don't. I don't, Nope. It hurts, hurts. It hurts. It still, it still stings very fresh. It still stings. It's very fresh. Hey, the whole scene with Ka Nicki. Where he's getting drilled Uhhuh by Ministry of Peace, dude. Right. Uh, as soon as he said, we're looking for people who are disloyal, people who might have said, might have said something that might be disloyal.

Can you let us know? And he is like, well, I thought we could use our own discretion. Oh sure, you can use your own discretion. Just let us tell you what your discretion is. And then they go and get the dude later, which was so sad. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I mean like even that says it is closed by order of ministry of peace on, uh, suspicion of sedition or something like that.

Or while we investigate accusations of sedation, even if they come back and they're like, yeah, nothing was here. Sorry, go back to work. His business is ruined. Yeah. Ruined. And, and

you know, I, I gotta tell you, the word loyal to me takes on a whole different tone these days. Maybe the last, like, what's it been now seven years? Really? It takes on a whole, whole different tone. I'm like mm-hmm. , uh, especially being loyal, like well, and yeah, I

Jeff: dunno. And I, and I wanna own, I think we messed up earlier.

I think some of the things I said about Wells was actually about Lance. Lance is the Ministry of Peace guy. Wells is the night watch guy who's part of the Ministry of Peace. I think I messed, I think I mixed those up. But Wells, dude, that guy's smooth as silk. Smooth, right? I mean, with Coni I thought we could use.

Totally, totally. I want you to, that's why you're here. You're so intelligent Also. Only do things like this and do it this way, , you know, but he puts it in that way that you, you, you can't argue with it. I, a couple episodes ago, I think it was, uh, in the shadows of Zaha Doom, when, um, Sheridan was going on, Morden and Garabaldi resigned his position, and Zach came in and I was like, I don't know man.

Zach's just following orders and I feel like he should be thinking when they hauled off that shopkeeper. Mm-hmm. and, and Zach was watching and he had that look on his face, and it was an abi it was a look of shock and concern, but it was ambiguous enough that part of me is like, okay, maybe he saw that and he is like, oh, this is a problem.

And I don't know if it's worth 50 bucks a week. But also, I think there was a part of that I could read in the look on his face that was, I do need to tell him about this stuff. This guy's clearly a problem. Like they're arresting him so clearly he's a problem. My Babylon five radar tells me that. Zach Allen's gonna be full night watch by early in season three.

And he's gonna be working. I do. I think he's gonna be working against the little mini, the fifth column thing that Sheridan's leading. I

Brent: really hope that's not the case. I love, like, I really hope that that's the other way around. Like, I hope that he, he went through this and went, that felt real icky and that's not okay.

And I'm not okay with that. And he becomes like, and like you, you know what I wanna see from him. Let's face it, he's a little bit, he's not really the comic relief, but he's kind of a little bit of a goofball esque. Yeah, a little comic relief in there. I wanna see him in training to be a ranger. Really?

Yeah. I want, I want that. I want him, I want him in training to be a ranger. We can

Jeff: write all the spinoffs.

Brent: That's gonna be our like, you know what it is. You know what it is Here. I'm gonna burn my, I'm gonna burn my first one. It's Neli wanting to be a security officer with Tupac. Like it's gonna be that level right there.

That's what I

Jeff: want. That's the meanest thing anybody's ever said to Ka Nicki

And he was on celebrity rehab. So that says a lot. But I mean, talking about Wells, there was the scene with, uh, him and Ivanova. Yeah. Right. Where he came in and, I mean, again, just smooth as silk. Yeah. With her, I think without diving into the Yvanova stuff necessarily, just the well stuff in there, you know, she shut him down, he didn't care.

He's just like, that's cool, you know, whatever, you'll be around. I'll be here. It's fine. You wanna work harder for your thing, whatever. It's all good. And then when she, you know, tried to throw a little shade, he's just like, you don't, you know, this is too, this is too much for you. Like, he just threw these little insults, but they're the ones you can't, you can't argue against.

Like, he was uhhuh, this guy's good, this guy's really good at what he does.

Brent: So Wells, I wanna talk about him for a second. Jeff, I'm gonna say something that might surprise you. Okay. And I really hope this, I really hope this is, this is true. I hope that Wells becomes a permanent fixed drum, Babylon five. Okay. Uhhuh, because he's so, he's so good at being bad, right? Like, he's so slimy.

He's so, you've love to hate him so much. Watching him go against, uh, everybody out there, like, he introduces that level of chaos in such a way that makes for really good drama and makes for really good story, you know? Um, and there's a, I'll call 'em the Woolsey element. Um, there's a, there's a show out there.

I'm not gonna name its name, it's not Star Trek. It's a different star show out there that, um, went through a couple of lead changes throughout the course of its, of its run. And it wasn't until the final season where they actually put in an antagonist into the lead position, and it was the best season out of all of them because of the conflict that that brought to the core group.

You know, like, I don't know if that makes sense at all. Like as, as far as a show goes, as far as a story goes, it was by far the best season. Huh? But it, but it really hinged on not, Hey, here's everybody sort of happy and working together. It's no, no, no. Here's the fight that's going on. Here's the, the, the how.

They're rubbing each other the wrong way and they're each approaching this from two different. Uh, aspects where they both think that they're absolutely right and it just made for a great season of television. And I really kind of, I don't think he's going to, but I really kind of hope he sticks around as a permanent, a fixture, maybe a, a, a commander, a commander B with Sheridan, like he's gotta share it or something like that.

Like they Oh, I think they're clearly trying to come in and, and take over. Totally. Yeah. You know,

Jeff: um, but we had, we had, we had lawyer NATA who came in and was just like, you're gonna have to, uh, you know, go do this and that's gonna lead to you getting replaced. And then him being like, you can apologize, or you cannot, and then you're gonna get replaced and we'll put somebody better in who better than Mr.

Wells with a honorary, you know, commission to commander or whatever. Yeah, I could, I'd see it though. Maybe I, I love the character for all the reasons you just said. And he's not only has he written really well, this dude pulls it off. Great. Like really, really well. I want him to be the spokesperson. Right.

You know, we're not gonna see President Clark all the time. Lance. Lance is retiring, he's brokering his peace deal and he is gonna be gone when earth government has something to say, it's gonna be wells. I think that would be cool. And he shows up and then introduces all the chaos and you know, drops by the sea of ova again and like Yeah.


Brent: heard an opportunity to say he's the chaos element that just brings that thing to the show.

Can I make an observation? Well, yeah. If you want the earth, the earth, the earth dress uniform, earth force dress uniform is

Jeff: swank. Yeah. We did that a couple of times. It looked so good when he was dressing up Right. And practicing his apology, which was a great scene. Yeah. But just, just a uniform. So good.

So good. Right. I think on, on Night Watch, just to kind of wrap my thoughts on it. One, there's a lady who went and snitched to, uh, to Wells, and that led to, to the, the Sonari knowing about the Narn Battle Cruiser, she was operating in cnc. So way back when we were introduced to Home Guard, right, we started asking that question of, oh my gosh, where are the Home Guard people working?

They're gonna be everywhere. And they had one dude who happened to be Garabaldi second. It was a big deal. But Night Watch, they got people in the cnc, they got Zach in security. Like they've got a lot of people in key places who do not hesitate to go and turn people in. That's gonna be wild.


Brent: the difference is, Those guys are out in the open. Yeah. They got like, there is no secret as to who they are

Jeff: and they're operating with the blessing and endorsement of Earth Dome. Yeah. I mean, oh, it's, it's horrifying. I think the scariest thing is the line that Wells said, and it gets repeated in the episode a little bit, as he says, as with everything else, it's the thought that counts.

Care what you do. It's what we think. You think it,

Brent: it really makes you think about anytime there is a group of citizens, civilians that put an armband on, put a, put a symbol, they're wearing something and they're part of a squad, they're part of a

Jeff: security force. We're the ones who

Brent: are gonna keep this. You know, we're the, the, we're, we're gonna keep these promises and make sure everybody follows 'em.

We're gonna, we're gonna police this. We're gonna take this responsibility on ourselves and go do this. That's not always the best. No. In fact, very rarely is that ever actually helpful to the situation. Right. And, and in fact, it often is oppressive.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. at best,

Brent: not just in, in fiction. In reality,

Jeff: you get, say, hypothetically, like, I don't know, a group of boys that are very proud and maybe they decide to go get some similarly colored shirts, say Brown, for example, and walk, you know, I mean, we could go on with examples through multiple cultures, through multiple times.

Yeah. Where this, this is what happens. Yeah. And it never, never goes well.

Brent: And it, and it's, they always are. Oppressive. Mm-hmm.

Jeff: always. It's never good. No. And, and I think, God, just the, the ties to things in this episode, were so well crafted, but also pretty bon bon in a lot of times too. And I think that's fine.

I think they, they need to be Lance as things were wrapping up and explained, you know, he's here to sign the non-aggression treaty. He says, we will know peace in our time and you can hear the echoes from 300 years ago when Neville Chamberlain said that about the non-aggression pact he signed with Hitler right before World War II started.

Mm-hmm. like, ugh. I mean, earth Lawn is pure evil and Irredeemable and Earth are the bad guys. That's the world we live in, in Babylon five. Like it's wild. It's this wild.

So I wanna talk about the battle scene really quick. So the Narn heavy cruiser comes in, asks for sanctuary lawn FIEs out, finds out a cent, heavy cruiser comes in to take it out, right? Sheridan stands up and he is like, dude, you fire on us. I will, I will do it. Jeff,

Brent: I'm sorry. Can I, can I back up just a little bit?

Oh, sure. This is gonna be just a little bit of editing for you. Okay. And then come right back into what you're just saying. Yeah. Uh, maybe start that over so you don't have to Yeah, I just cut off. Yeah. Hey, can, can I, can I tell you something cool about, uh, Lance? Yeah. So the actor who plays him is a guy named Roy Doree.

Jeff: He's in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Is he? He is. He's one of the, um, oh my gosh. I forget. But yeah, I'm pretty sure he is a guy. He's in Buffy. What, so you were gonna say something else cool. Yeah. No.

Brent: Uh, are, are you a Game of Thrones? Eh, eh, okay. Well, a lot of our people out there, I'm sure are Game of Thrones fans.

Uh, Roy Dotrice does the audio version for the Song of Ice and Fire Books. He reads the audible version and he is fantastic. Really. He's absolutely fantastic. That's how I've read the books. The, the, the only five, cuz there's only five of 'em that are out. . Sorry, double Ds. Uh, sorry about your look. Um, but he, I mean, he's fantastic at it.

Absolutely fantastic. So that's, I recognize. Hey, I know that guy from over there. Yeah.


Jeff: recognize the name. He was in b I forget what he was in Buffy, but in the later seasons he had like a recurring, recurring guest role and I'm surprised. Yeah, I guess it was a couple years before. Maybe that's why I didn't recognize him.

That's really cool. Yeah.

Brent: That was totally worth, uh,

Jeff: interrupting your whole thing. Agreed. Agreed. . So Brett, I wanna talk about the battle scene that happened, right? So the Nan heavy cruiser came through Sheridan, offered it sanctuary eventually, and then lawn finds out and then so a Bigari heavy cruiser comes in, Sheridan's like, oh, shout not pass, and if you do try to pass, I will blow you up.

And like in seconds it unloaded on Babylon five, we, we saw Babylon five like pieces get busted off of the station. Yeah, that was

Brent: huge. Is that gonna follow up in season three? Like are we gonna start with one of those fins missing off of Babylon five? I hope so, because we're gonna see him at least like reattaching it so they

Jeff: can move forward or, because here's what we know about Babylon five.

They are not flush with cash. It's not like they can just, oh, replicate a couple things and slap 'em on and call it good. That's gonna be some duct tape and bubble gum holding that thing on for a while. .

Brent: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I can't, I cannot believe Jeff cannot believe the sonari fired on Babylon five itself.

The hubris.

Jeff: I mean, just the hubris of

Brent: just like she

Jeff: hubris. Yep. Worth it. Worth it. Totally worth it. .

Brent: Hey, we're two and two right now, by the way.

Jeff: Exactly. Cause I mean, battle one fives got brand new weapons. There's a war, a Nan War cruiser sitting there in one single Centi cruise. Like, I got this.

Brent: I'll Hey, by the way, right.

I'm gonna burn my third one. Uh, who, who did station weapon upgrades better Deep Space Nine or Babybel on five.

Deep Space nine never blew up an entire battleship.

Jeff: I like, it's, it's hurting it to come out of me. But Baba on five did a better job.

Brent: And frankly, their, that sequence of the, the missiles and every, you know, the turrets coming up so much better than what we

Jeff: saw in Deep Space nine. Cause like deep Space nine, they did the upgrades, but those upgrades turned into, you would see more torpedoes in space.

Like it didn't do a lot of cool stuff on the station. We had a whole new visual package for this. Yeah. New orders being given, new stuff coming out of it. Like they reworked the whole thing and Yeah. And,

Brent: and my God, were they just bad booty? Yeah. Like they were, I mean, I don't know if they just accidentally hit.

What is an exhaust

Jeff: port . Right.

Brent: You know, like I'm not entirely sure why that particular ship went Kalu unless their weapons are just that

Jeff: powerful. Yeah. And I think it was shocking for them too, cuz Sheridan, like war the battles kind of over the narn has made it into the, through the jump gate. And so he is like, right, get the medical crews across, let's help this.

No, it's too late.

Brent: Oh no.

Jeff: Right. But what I, I loved in that scene, I think we've talked before about like the reality of, of military language that happened and this battle scene was so military real. Uh, target sent worship targeting I Time on target, time on target. I like, these are things that the repeating back, it's a really important part of what happens in a situation like this.

And even the jargon they use, like Time on Target. I don't know that I've ever heard time on Target in a TV show before. If you don't know. Oftentimes, especially in naval battles that I guess even probably in a lot of battles. But, um, the weapons you have move at different speeds. These missiles are gonna go to different speeds than these shells that are gonna go to different speed of these torpedoes.

So you do time on target so that all of your weapons impact your target at the same time. So I'm gonna fire my torpedo. Three, two, missile, five, six, fire the guns, boom, and then it hits everything. That's just a really cool, really cool touch that as a vet like that, that really resonated

Brent: with me. I like it when stuff like that comes out for folks like you.

Um, I know, I know for me personally, there are times when, uh, watching a medical show. And you're just like, that's not what you do in that situation. That is absolutely stupid. Or, or there's a, there's a kid show I watch, I watch this movie way too much with my kids. It's, it's this set of movies called Sing.

Okay. Oh yeah, yeah. Where they, where they set up this big huge show and they've got lights move and they've got sound system and it's all like supposed to be done like in the rubble of a broken down building. And I'm like, no,

Jeff: there's not even enough power coming into this thing, let alone . No. Do you

Brent: know what it takes to program those lights and to set up and run those rigs?

No. You cannot do it like that. So those are my two examples. Yours is a little more apropos at this particular situation, but I get what you're saying when you say, Hey, I can appreciate

Jeff: that. Yeah. I thought it added a lot to the scene for me. But that of course led to them telling Sheridan that he needed to A, them being Lance and Wells.

Yeah. That he needed to apologize. And that led to that epic, epic moment of him in the mirror putting his thing on him, practicing his apology.

Brent: Sorry, you guys shot first. And you guys are a bunch of jerks.

Jeff: Stupid long. I he literally called him. I, I'm sorry you were stupid enough to fire on our space station with your people on it.

Like, oh, I, I hope that's the, it probably wasn't, but I hope that's the apology he intended to give. I really do too.

Brent: I, I want to hear that speech. I wanna hear that speech. But you know what, it really led to all that sari stink eye. Yeah. As he's walking through, and I'd said this earlier in this season, I'll say it again.

There is no way, no way the station commander is walking through in public areas by himself taking the subway. Right. Not happening. Ever,

Jeff: especially too, as you put an A-list event in the Zen Garden with everybody who's anybody? Oh, I'm just running the show. You know, Hey, you think hitchhiking is fine? Or should I, should I hit the light rail?

Like, how are we gonna do this? No

Brent: way. No way. Cause I, I'll tell you, you know what never happens? The president of Walt Disney World never hops on the monorail just to go over from Ticket and Transportation Center to the Magic Kingdom. He doesn't do that. That's, that's not

Jeff: how that works. There's a team and a golf cart.

That's kind of how that works. , that's a little more in a golf cart.

Brent: But if he does go on the monorail, that mon that car is closed, because frankly, they're gonna be having conversations that nobody really needs to hear. Right. But that's not how that's gonna work. So, ,

Jeff: that whole scene though. So one, the, the, I don't know if it's a matte painting or what it is.

They've got set up for the Zen garden and the whole thing. Gorgeous. It looked really good. He's on the train and then they're showing all the ambassadors kind of milling about. Yeah, and the two things I thought were notable in that was . Jaar in the corner. Like

Brent: I, I'm here too, over here. . Like, you gotta go, dude, you cannot be here right now.

I thought I could step in and maybe it makes, no, it's not. Go away. .

Jeff: This is literally a beehive. Like, do not be here. There's nothing for you here, . But I noticed lawn all by himself with just a little bitter look on his face and everybody else like pacran the drowsier kind of visiting and other people and lawns out there all alone.

And then the bomb goes off and all of a sudden I did some math about the station when they were describing, here's basically just floating. And I was like, yeah, cuz, cuz it rotates for gravity. This is a big deal for me to understand this . I'm like, oh. Cuz it rotates for gravity. In the further from like center, you get the less gravity there is.

So up here where the monorail runs, it's probably close to no gravity. So he jumps out and there's nothing but the spinning is gonna come around. So it's not him falling, it's the station spinning around to meet him. And at some point he'll meet it at 60 miles per hour and splat be gone.

Brent: He's not gonna hit like the ground, he's gonna hit like the side of a building.

Mm-hmm. or something of that nature. Like Yeah.

Jeff: Or a tree he's in the zengar might hit a tree. Right. Right. Like

Brent: he's gonna hit just ba. You know, I thought it was neat. All they really needed was some jet packs just to go up and catch 'em. Yeah. Like, that's

Jeff: all I need is a jet pack. They need to have some safety guys on the train ready to go.

So in that, as you described, you know, Deen's like, dude, gosh, we gotta do something about this. And he whips it out and he's an angel. . There you go. He's an

Brent: okay. Did you see that coming at all?

Jeff: Oh yeah. Actually I did not

Brent: saw, you saw the verlon as

Jeff: angels go back to the episode we had, uh, with Le Alexander.

And that's what I said. We had the whole conversation about how we perceive angels to look now and how we, how people are scared of angels all the time. Do you, do you even listen to anything we say on this show? ?

Brent: I listen back to every single episode. No, Jeff, no. No. You did not think he was an angel.

Jeff: I did.

I thought he was an angel or whatever. People see. As like their deity or their most important thing. Cause Li Alexander had the halo in her eye. Yeah.

Brent: You might have said that. Did you also told me that they mentioned Zaha Doom way back in like episode one or two or something like that. And you're totally lying about that too.

I know you are.

Jeff: Revelations. Revelations. Yeah. But my, but my question even before we get into talking about his form was the lens like, dude, you gotta do something and without hesitation comes up and he flew off. I don't know that anyone else saw him. Like, I don't know. I don't know that other people know that's ko.

Oh, like maybe they were, oh,

Brent: because, you know, so there was this weird moment down in the Zen Garden and I, I kind of made fun of it a little bit in the Brent Watches video. Where Dalen and Kosh, like they're at this party, they're milling around. Mm-hmm. , and then they sort of just sneak off to the side.

Like they look like they were going to make out. be frank with you. Like that's, they look like, Hey, we're gonna sneak away you a minute, . And you might be right. Nobody might actually know that that's Ko,

Jeff: even Sheridan right. Was like, when, when hes staring, he's like, Ko. Mm-hmm. With a really awkward nod. I really, I

Brent: want to hear what KO's voice sounds like.

Not in the,

Jeff: uh, suit. I bet he doesn't have a voice. It's probably true. It's probably some sort of thing. And the reason like when he talks to you have that Yes. Yes. It's like translating his telepathic thing or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, but I, I put some pieces together from comes the inquisitor. Into this one.

Oh, are we getting the red yarn out? No, not so much. I think, I think this is just kinda like, well, maybe a little bit in terms of, so I think it was in that one or one recently also where I talked about, um, the book, the Bible and Flying Saucers and how like there's some, you know, theories out there that Christianity and Judaism are actually based on stuff aliens brought to us.

Uhhuh, what we learned in comes the inquisitive that the von had been involved in earth history for at least a couple hundred years, if not a lot longer. This makes us think a lot longer, like they showed up as angels, you know, to a point that we recognize them as angels. In, in comes the inquisitor, the Sebastian said the V on everywhere.

They've been everywhere. The von R, they simply are. Yeah. In Exodus, when Moses talked to the burning bush, it identified itself as I am. Mm-hmm. . Are the volans, our, the deity that Abrahamic religions have accepted on Earth, is that the storyline here is it's been the von all along.

Brent: I, I think that is the implication, and I think that the implication is, is that, uh, and, and I think this plays true understanding that JMS isn't about atheist.

Mm-hmm. . Okay. Um, that whatever your faith is, and I think that was the implication. Everybody was seeing their own thing. Right? Whatever your faith is, it's all the same and it's just an alien .

Jeff: Yeah. Uhhuh

Brent: makes it real simple that way. You know, like, like you kinda get, it's sort of this more universalist type, uh, faith to be frank with you.

Um, but I gotta tell you, this is something I love when sci-fi does. I love. I like when fantasy does this too, but sci-fi specifically, when you go back and you rewrite Earth's history with a new understanding of what happened, you know, like mm-hmm. . So to, to go back and, and you know, I mean take the, the theological preferences and stuff and set all that aside.

Just, just the story element of like, hey, this is actually what was going on the whole time. Turns out it was these guys and they were, I mean, what, what did Sheridan say? They were getting us ready so that everybody would accept film or they were lying to us. They were, you know, and, and one's like, yeah, they were, but that's not really the right way to look at it.

Right. . So there's more to it. Yeah. Um, but I definitely, I definitely think what you are saying there is what is being implied.

Jeff: Yeah, I think so too. I think so because like, It also made me think of Confessions and Lamentations where told the story about being a kid and being lost and being in the temple.

And she looked up and saw a glowing bean who, you know, took her hand and said, I won't allow any harm to come to you in my home. I wonder if that was a vlan glowing figure. So they're like, they're still interjecting themselves into either world's history or even just specific people's history. You know, Dalin might have been marked as special as a, as a kid maybe will learn.

There's been weird incidences in Sheridan's life that have led up to where like maybe a, a hand or a VO on or something

Brent: might have, you know, you know what you're starting to sound like now is, uh, Jacob from Lost. Oh my gosh, yes. You know, like always guiding these, this particular group of people, he was always there and their something.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause one of 'em might be the chosen one. All

Jeff: right. You gotta gotta make sure they're safe. My last thought is on which

Brent: means, which means ve is the guy who's actually gonna be the, the crux of the whole thing.

Jeff: I'm telling you, I'm telling you like, yep, ves gonna be the hero at the end of this.

So my, my last thought on, on the Kosh thing is lawn. Yeah. They're all in the bar and they're like, ambassador Malar, what did you see? Nothing. Yeah.

Brent: So go, go back just a little bit. When Ko did his little flying thing and everybody's like, oh, oh, oh. And then, or lawn's sitting there like, huh

Jeff: huh.

Brent: Like, he's looking.

And so I, I think if I can ask the question that you were getting ready to ask, did Lando actually see something or didn't he, like, was he going, ha like everybody's looking and something, I don't see what's going on, or there's Sheridan floating and I don't see what's going on with him. , which then begs do you have to be of a certain quality in order to see a VO on?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or you know, can they, can, can they mask themselves from people that are bad? Like, what is that all about? Because I don't get the whole point of having the encounter suit is that people could see you and then they would recognize you. Mm-hmm. , well, what's the point? If you can just block yourself to all the bad guys.

Jeff: So my thought that's a great, a great, because I think my, as, I don't know if I have an assumption with lawn. One of the, one of the things is maybe he was blocking the other is maybe he doesn't truly believe in anything. So he didn't see anything.

Brent: Or maybe he just saw a bunch of appendages. ,

Jeff: right. He just like,

Brent: huh, it's

Jeff: a bunch of sari dogs up.

Why? Why are there wieners in the sky?

Little, little riff on Perry Grip. It's raining. No. Stop.

might record, might record that one for the Patreon

Brent: I'm sorry. Oh, oh, I'm so red right now. That's

Jeff: funny. Oh man. But um, but to your point, yeah. What's the mechanism through which you see is, is, is the way I see Kosh a thing in my brain? Or is it a thing that he's like projecting? Does he have control over it? You know what I mean? Like, how does it happen?

Cause if he has control over it, that would wipe me out. Okay. Who's here? What are they thinking? How would I present myself? Are they good? Are they bad?

Brent: Yeah. I, I think it's, uh, Jeff, what? Describe the color green. What is the color green? Yellow and blue. Yeah, but what is yellow? What is blue? I mean, you, you could point at something and say that that's green.

I could be like, yes, absolutely. That's green. And while we both may agree that that's green, we could be seeing two entirely different things. The cones in your eyes and the cones in my eyes. For those who don't know, you have cones in your eyes that detect color could be interpreting them as two different things, but because you've always looked at that and gone, that is green.

And I've always looked at what I see and say that is green. Like there we could be seeing two very different things. I think it might be similar to that. Like, you are looking at this and the cones in your eyes see this, and this guy looks at that and the cones see that. And it's, it's just how you absorb it.

But you're both seeing the same thing. Yeah, that's, that's my read on it.

Jeff: Like it, I think that that tracks It can make sense. My question then would be, what do they really look like? You know? Yes. Yeah, exactly. Love it. Looks like Jason Ironheart is how they look. That's . He's the closest thing to it. Mm-hmm.

So I think the last stuff I really have to go through, unless you have any other pieces, is just kind of the, how the whole, do we wanna talk about the Keer thing at all? I mean, it happened.

Brent: No. I mean, no, this was jms giving a big middle finger to the studio who was like, huh, you made me get this guy. I only used him like six times and now I kill him.

Ha ha. Yeah. I only told you I'd do it for one season.

Jeff: You, and then the thing goes out, thing goes out to the news and the people are like, oh, it's a big blast. That's it.

Brent: That's, I think, gonna be way more important than we realize. Yeah. Like that was just a little tag on at the very end that you're like, oh, because you know what?

That, that was. The same level at, okay, spoiler alert for the second Spider-Man movie of the mcu. You guys ready? It's not that old. So I'm gonna give you guys a chance if you don't know, wanna hear it? Fast forward by about 30 seconds. Three, two. Jeff, have you seen the movie? You've not seen

Jeff: the movie? No, but I muted you so I can't hear you, even though I just responded to you.

Okay. Shoot. Watch this. Watch. Okay. No, you're totally fine. Um, just wave at me when you're done.

Brent: Okay. For those of you who, who have not or who have watched the end, it's the same thing as when Jay Jonah a Jameson outs Peter Parker as being Spider-Man at the end of Spider-Man, too. It's that level of like, oh my gosh,

it's that level of, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do now? Holy

Jeff: boop. Right? It's a shadow or it's a big black spider. Thing Is that on my screen? Let me, right, let me get that thing

Brent: right. The, the fortunate thing is we don't know what that is and by we, I mean the viewing population back on earth, like, Hey, we saw this thing out there.

That's interesting. You know, and the battle on five people like, oh shoot, what that

Jeff: is, right? Yeah. There's gonna be some people who are like, no. And other people who are just

Brent: like, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Back up. Who actually knows what that

Jeff: is? Almost No one, the the nas. Do we know the NAS do? No,

Brent: we don't.

No, because if the NAS saw it, they are dead. Yeah. Yeah. So the Nans don't know who it is. I don't think Lawn's ever seen it. I don't think. Maybe he did. Maybe. Did they see, were they the ones attacking and they were kinda watching from the ship?

Jeff: No, that those episode, those were nan cruisers. But he did see them in his vision where he was walking on the planet surface and they were all the, he doesn't necessarily know that they're chef.

Brent: Like I don't think that Sharon and has seen them, has Dalen seen what they look like. Kosh certainly would know what they look like, but does anybody really know what that thing is outside of us as a viewing audience? And,

Jeff: and the, and the one pilot that Keer got the, the, the data from that track, that's it.


Brent: But, but even that one pilot

Jeff: doesn't know what it is. Yeah. He just knows it. But I think he'll see it. And he, but he doesn't Yeah, you're right. He doesn't know what it's, he just knows. Oh my God. That's the thing, the thing that I saw.

Brent: Yeah. I mean, Jaar Jaar has some drawings in the book of Jaquan. Like there's, there's obviously some mythology about them out there somewhere.


Jeff: but yeah, for the most part people are just, there's a new race. Yeah. Morden Morden knows who it is.

Brent: Yeah. He's, that's about it. You know, who doesn't know is Anna, because she's not out there. She's

Jeff: dead. She knows she's on Puck Morra right now trying to figure out how to, how to wrap them into the whole thing.

The, uh, at the end of it had the whole vava. Narration. That was fantastic. So good. Yeah. But she said that Babylon five was the last best hope for peace. But we know that failed, so now it's our last best hope for victory. Yeah. Wow.

Brent: But what did she say? Because peace also means surrendering. Yeah. It's another word sometimes means surrendering.

Yeah. Yeah. And now what you say now it's our last best hope for what? Victory. For victory.

Jeff: Yeah. And so I did a little math that I didn't ever notice. I never did this math before and I'm wearing the wrong shirt. But I've got this shirt with the Babylon five logo with a sword through it. And I was just thought, oh, that's cool.

And cnc, they got a babble on five with like part of an olive branch in it, which makes sense. Last, best hope for really? Yeah. Never notice it until Mr. Lance was walking through the door. But there it was. I'll betcha. Season three. It's gonna have a sword through it, cuz now we're not here for peace. We're here to win.


Brent: you know, I, I don't know that other countries do this, but I know like, like in America we have the, uh, the Great seal. Mm-hmm. of America and it's an eagle. And in one talent he's holding 13 arrows and in another talent he's holding in olive branch. And depending on what's happening at the time, his head is facing one way or the other.

And like if this piece of legislation or whatever gets enacted during a time of war, his head's facing the arrows. But if it gets enacted during a time of peace, his head's supposed to be facing the olive branch. Yep. Like it's just a subtle little

Jeff: change. But it's the, uh, c cpo parum to be, to be ready for war, to be ready for peace.

You must be ready for war. And technically, cuz that's an episode of discovery. And that's what I had in my notes from Star Fleet Leadership Academy. .

Brent: Cool. I would, you could have not said that and I would not have picked up that reference at all.

Jeff: I'm gonna be fair about it. Well, Jeff, uh, I have one last Yeah.

One last thought. One last question. Yeah. So I've, uh, so I've got one last question for you. And that was at the end when Devonna was doing her voiceover, she was lighting the candles on the menorah Yeah. I mean, as a powerful, beautiful scene. Sure. What do you think that was, was behind that?

Brent: Well, I think she forgot to celebrate Hanukkah, which actually had ended mm-hmm.

about 12 days earlier. And she was like, oh yeah, I better catch up on this. And so she was just catching up on, on her, uh, Faith's tradition. Like, I think I,

I, I made it a, a mental note to think about that a little more deeply, because I think there's definitely some symbolism there. Well, there was,

Jeff: there was a through line with her and Lance when they had kind of like a friendly. Conversation. Oh, how are your grandkids? Oh, you got kids? No, I don't have kids.

And then asked about her Christmas plans or whatever, and she's like, yeah, I don't really, eh, yeah. I'm not really, you know, very much into that kind of stuff. And yeah, I don't have a f But then she went and she got shared in the Christmas present, right? Yeah. A piece, a piece of the black star.

Brent: Right. Which by the way, that's a cool Christmas present.

It is. Especially when she explained it like, this is to remind you that anything's possible. Like that was so

Jeff: cool. Such a The impossible is possible. Yeah. However, flip side on that hundred percent chance of men bar's gonna see that and be like, look at him celebrating. Like that's gonna blow up in his face at some point for a minute.

But, um, but he had that and then she

Brent: was, you know, no. You know when that's gonna come back. Sorry. When that's like, things are gonna be going really good between, uh, John and Yeah. And then she's gonna see it and take a fence at it, and then they're gonna be on the outs for a bit. Yep. That's.

Jeff: You told me you were over her, that it wasn't serious.

I'm not, I'm not into her anymore. I mean, I haven't talked to her in forever. I don't know where these came from. I must, she must have left them here. I can't believe it. I'm leaving. That's pretty much exactly how it will go. Not that I have experience with that or anything. Hey, so Ivanova, um, . Ivanova was in the Zen Garden when K took flight.

Yeah. I wonder if she saw the angel and it sparked something in her and she was like a return to her faith of some kind. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. I mean, so we go back to the best episode, tko. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, Ava learned something even about her own faith that even if you are late, it's still better to celebrate.

You know what I mean? And when you think about the Menor, so the Menorah, um, and again, this is, you probably have a better understanding, so please help correct me and.

The, the, the Menorah is a representation of the story of a macabees when God made the lights last for a really super long time. Mm-hmm. , something like that. Right. Um, so what does this mean in the light, uh, or the darkness of this war that is now here? Wow. And, and discussing the, this is now our last chance for victory.

Our last chance of hope. That when you, when you look at, okay, here it is, here it is the hopeless situation that the, that the, the, the Macabees and the Jews were in, in that moment. And the miracle it took to keep those candles, to keep the, those lights burning when they needed those lights burning, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, that miracle, they're now facing darkness themselves and they need a miracle. They need something. Deity, a caution that they just saw to keep those

Jeff: moving through. They need to find and identify the beauty in the dark to tie it back to the, uh, the episode from earlier. That's great.

Brent: Yeah. I like it.

I like it. And, uh, if there's anyone out there who understands Hanukkah and, and that sole thing, then I just completely butchered it. Please feel free to email and correct me. I, I would love to learn and have that corrected. That's just my best understanding.

Jeff: Do you, do you know the comedian Gary Gulman?

No, no. I'm a fan. He's funny. He does, uh, Gary Goman. Goman. Yeah. Mm. He does a bit on Hanukkah. He's, he's, he's a Jewish person and he's got some funny jokes about growing up in, in that culture. But he, he talks about Hanukkah and he's like, I'm gonna do a terrible job with his bit. But he is like, yeah. So Hanukkah was the, the Jews answer to Christmas.

They're like, you know, the rabbis got together and they're like, man, we're really, we are not, we're not doing it in the, the presents department. This isn't working. What holiday do we have that we can, we can compete with Christmas? And they're like, well, we got this, uh, Hanukkah thing, you know, where we had like two days worth of oil and it lasted for eight days.

Yeah, yeah. We'll do that. We'll do that. He's like, basically, that'd be like today having a holiday where you're like, Hey, do you remember that time when the light was on, on the gas gauge? And we drove for like 10 more miles. Yeah, that was December 10th. We celebrate that day every year. . But, but I think that the, the, the analogy and the story of what that was is perfect for this because they are, they, they do need eight days of light.

out of the two days of oil they have

Brent: and, and, okay. So I'm pretty, wasn't the whole thing about the reed, like redating the temple back to its original purpose. Mm-hmm. . So you have Babylon five, which has now lost its purpose of being the last best hope for peace, and now there's a needing to get it. Redd back to that. Like, I, I think you could pull so many metaphors.

That would be a great question. I want, I want that on like the, the audio commentary, like a, a great question. What did you mean by putting that imagery in there? Just at that moment? Like that feels way too specific to not mean something much deeper, you know? Agreed. Because I think we could, we could put a bunch of stuff to it and some might be right.

JMS just might be like, the character was Jewish and it was that time of year. So it really could be that, it could be that Uhhuh

Jeff: simple. He's like, I use candles in a lot of scenes. I mean, why not this one? Yeah. So, yeah,

Brent: I don't think it was that simple though. I think there, there's probably much more people are in the comments right now.

Oh, I know, I know. He talked about it. You know, I can't wait to read those comments

Jeff: after we've watched this entire series. Yes. Yeah.

Brent: Well, Jeff, with that, uh, we have reached that show that, that point of the show, uh, where after it. A very lengthy discussion well deserved for this episode. We're gonna boil it down and see if it has any of that star treky quality to it.

Is there a deep moral message? Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that we could be better in the future? I'm gonna do that by rating this on a scale of zero to five Deltas and Jeff, you're gonna talk about how much we like this episode and how babble on five this episode was by, uh, rating this according to Star Furies.

I will go first. I didn't catch a lot of Star Trek out of this particular episode. I think you could pull certain ideas and really stretch it out to be just sort of universal good ideas. But I don't think that there was a whole lot of like, Hey, here's the message we're really going for. We're trying to drive home here.

Like, like, they just didn't have that kind of quality to it. Like some things are just good tv. They're just meant to be entertainment. They're meant to move a story forward. . And I feel like that was the, uh, the, the, the deal here. However, um, like jms, I know Gene Roddenberry very much was a, I, I don't know that he was in about atheist as much as he might have been an agnostic or he was just a, he created Star Trek in a post religious society, although they still had a lot of religion references throughout their whole deal, but whatever.

Tons. Yeah. Um, uh, but he really intended for it to be a post religious society and to that whole piece with Ko of, of sort of rewriting religion as an alien thing. Like, I don't know that, that's so much Star Trek, as much as that just is sci-fi. So for that, I'm gonna give this one like a Delta. Wow. Just one.

But I don't think it real, I think this was more plot and make things happen type of video.

Jeff: There were two things in this episode that stood out to me from the Star Trek one we talked about, right? Knowing that the impossible is possible. I, I look at that though as a thing we've talked about a couple times where they drop a piece, it's a something, what's it gonna turn into here?

It was literally a line, you know, like, we need hope. And so you've done it before. We're excited. But I think it's a great, uh, concept to explore. But the one that I actually pulled a message out of that I think was kind of a theme through the whole episode was the scene where, like, they, now they know that Earth Force is here to sign the non-aggression treaty with the sonari, and they're getting all dressed and ready to go.

And Sheridan was like, I used to have pride in this. Now, now I used to look at that uniform and I, I felt 10 feet tall. Yeah. I could take anybody on. Now it's just a piece of cloth. And AANA was like, well, maybe. Maybe this next year is the 2260 is the year that we redefine the uniform. We make it mean something again, that rededicate it.

Exactly. Yeah. It ties back to it all. Yeah, it ties into all of that, and I think that to me, that's the Star Trek theme in here is that even, even when what you believe in and have fought for is falling apart, you don't have to give up. Right? You might not win now, but you can look to the future and you can think about what you can do to, to make it mean something again, to make it matter.


Brent: would, I would love to revisit that probably at the end of season three and see did they accomplish, Because Star Trek would've taken that, handled that in an episode.

Jeff: Yeah. . You know what I mean? And we might, we might see it in the first episode, like in season three, we might just dive in and be like, oh, nope, they're, they're elbow deep in Inari blood and here we go.

You know, or whatever.

Brent: Yeah. I, I mean, but like we, we definitely, we saw something like that in Discovery when you had the, they went to the future and the flag drops down and well, what, what is really the federation? And it was like, let's bring the federation back to what it was. Let's bring it, you know, relight this purpose.

And I, I could see where you're going with that. I'm gonna leave it at one, because they, they started the ball rolling. Mm-hmm. . If they, if they go with it, then we can come back to that. But I, I, I get where you are and that's why it's not zero. Right?

Jeff: Yeah. There's something there. There's

Brent: something, there's something there.

It's just not, I don't know that that's quite what they're going for just yet. So cool. What about you? How many star hearings you give this episode?

Jeff: I think season ending episodes are tough, right? I mean we, we struggled with Chrysalis at the end of season one cuz it was a non cliff hanger season ender that wrapped up stuff and set stuff up, you know, for other things.

It wasn't a jaw dropper. Exactly. It was just like this was not a jaw dropper. Yeah, and I think that's the same thing here cuz like the earth stuff that happened. Yeah. That was huge. Totally predictable. Mm-hmm the cent. Like being wild, warm, mons lawn full villain. Yeah, it was big. Also totally predictable.

The KO reveal was unexpected. I didn't think we were getting that in season two, but also it was kind of predictable. Oh look, it's the thing that Jeff thought it was gonna be from a couple episodes ago, on a second. Watch through on this one too. I can look at the pacing. They did the infection model of stuff and I can understand the intention.

They had of, you know, trying to kinda lull you into a sense of, oh, it's just another episode and then boom. But it's a season finale. We know what it's gonna be and we just came off of comes the inquisitor. That was, I mean, we had a great discussion about it last week. You added a ton of context and thoughts to it, but that was still a slow episode.

And so to come out of that into a seasoned finale that's just kind of dragging, ugh, that was hard. But star theories aren't just about how much we enjoy the episode. Right. It's also about how Babylon five that we think it is. This has all of the things Babylon. Five episodes you have. But you said a while ago when we were doing these ratings that people would hate it if you and I were both like college professors and we graded papers.

You said people would hate if I graded their papers. I'm gonna prove that right now. , this was a Babel on five episode. It was far from a banger and you know, in a lot of ways that it could have been that. It should have been. It was good episode. It was great. Um, I'm, I'm gonna go with four, four star theories on this one.

Brent: Are you, now, are you grading that up just because you're like, would you really give it four star Furies? Or are you really more like three? But I know Brent's gonna like growl at me, so I'm gonna give it four.

Jeff: I wanted to, but you legit wanted to give it four. I wanted to give it three. Like when I was thinking about this earlier, I was like, I want to give it three, but what pushed it to four for me was, this is Babylon five.

Yeah. Babylon five of having our beloved lawn. Move beyond redemption to take Earth. Earth, our home, where we come from and make them the big, evil, bad guy in the whole thing. That's Babylon five, like doesn't get much more Babylon five than that. So to me, that's what pushed it to four.

Brent: Yeah, I Well with that then, Jeff, because this actually was gonna be my next question, but it occurs to me that we're right here in this spot where we're ranking the episodes now, Jeff, you and I talked earlier today.

I don't remember if it was before we pressed record for the podcast, or if it was during the podcast, maybe we were just talking to our YouTube friends, which by the way, if you're not watching the YouTube videos, you should go do that because that's where the real show is happening. But we were talking about how this season has been a bit of a rollercoaster up and down in quality of episode.

We've had some really high, high episodes and we've had some really low, low episodes. Really just blah episodes to be frank with you and some really great good episodes, Jeff, we're ranking these episodes. This is the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon five. Season two, you get to place the season finale of the fall of night.

Currently our top five is from number one down, the long twilight struggle, the coming of shadows race through dark places in the shadow of aha doom and all alone in the night. Does this episode crack the top 10?

Jeff: Well, my first thought as I look at this list is that we still have that empty spot right above the long dark Yeah.

That we have in place. And so, I mean, this could slide right in there. Don't, don't stop watching. Don't stick around . I was just saying that I'm not gonna put it there. Not gonna put it. This was a great episode. And this ranking's about more than what, like how much we enjoyed it. This is, you know, this is caliber of episode and everything.

Yeah. So immediately where my mind goes, right. First it has to say, is this our number one episode of the season? And it's not, the long twilight struggle was

Brent: so much better. It felt like the season finale, it still feels like that was the season finale. It might be the best

Jeff: episode of

Brent: Blon five. We've seen.

I mean, I would not disagree.

Jeff: Yeah. As so good. Yeah. So then we start stepping through the other ones that are there, right? They come into shadows, race through dark places, and the shadow Zaha doom all alone in the night, divided loyalties. And it goes on and on. It's right for me. I land, I ask myself this question, which episode blew me away?

More fall of night. Or in the shadow of Zaha Doom. And for me, it was in the shadow of Zaha Doom. We got huge drops in there. This was the result of the stuff we got. I'm gonna make these, let me, let me ask you a

Brent: question. Okay. If you take away the KO revelation, what does that do to this

Jeff: episode? It's gonna drop it down even more.

Yeah. The KO revelation is what actually brings it. Yeah. It brings Cause without, without that, honestly, I can, I can look at this and I, I'm gonna, I would make this the number 10 episode below knives without the Kosh revelation. Yeah. But the K revelation is huge. It's massive. That a lot to it. Yeah. Yep. And, and for me, that's gonna make it our new number five.

Uh, gonna put it right below in the shadow of Zaha Doom and right above all alone in the night. All

Brent: right. Well, I, I have no say in where that goes because this is our 100%. Completely accurate definitive ranking. So yeah, I I might have pushed it down one or two spots, to be honest with you, I think, um, because I, I like this episode.

This is e this is easily a top third of the season for me. Yeah. You know? Um, and I like this group from like four through eight, maybe five through eight. So, so in the shadow of Zaha Doom, now the fall of night, all alone in the night divided loyalties, maybe even confessions and lamentations, which I think that was the one that I maybe didn't necessarily belong there, but there was so much there that just was good stuff to chew on.

Um, it's the TKO of the season. Um, but you put those in a bag, you kind of shake 'em. and you could pull 'em out in any order. Mm-hmm. , you know, like that part, it, it fits in that group. Like long twilight struggle coming of shadows, race through dark places are top tier. Yes. Yeah. You know, like they are better than anything from season one.

Yeah. Like they're better than season one all put together and then you get down to some of these other ones. So. Yeah.

Jeff: Well, Brent, that's it for the fall of night and for season two of Babylon Five. Sort of, normally this is the spot where we guess what's gonna happen in next week's episode, but we already know what's gonna happen in next week's episode.


Brent: we don't. I haven't watched yet.

Jeff: It's our season two wrap up. We watched all the episodes.

Brent: We don't have an episode to watch. Jeff,

Jeff: are you serious? We have 22 episodes to watch for for next week's episode. , that's it. Oh, because we gotta

Brent: rewatch the entirety of season two to . Yeah. Lock in the rankings, huh?

Jeff: Oh, we're gonna do that. We're gonna talk about, um, who our favorite characters were, what our big takeaways from the season were, what questions we still have. I would like to do a season rating of deltas and a season rating of star theories. That would make sense. Yeah. Yeah. We got some work to do to get ready for this one.

It's gonna be great. We gotta talk about what all we're gonna do. Yeah. We still gotta figure that out, what it's gonna look like. But the cool thing, what I love about the Babylon five for the first time community is Brent, you and I are not the only ones with work to do. Mm. Everyone out there has work to do as well because in the season two wrap up, we're gonna do an epic, epic giveaway and I'll go through this pretty quickly cuz we are, we've run very long in our conversation of this episode, but we've got an incredible action figure.

It's Captain John Sheridan in a model of Babylon five within the action figure. It's so perfect that John Sheridan could hold it in his pointy, pointy hand. It's inbox.

Brent: It's still

Jeff: inbox. It's beautiful, it's awesome, and it could be yours if you just pop over to Apple Podcast, pod chaser, good pods, any of those places, leave us a rating.

Leave us a review, screenshot that, send it to us, and, and by email Babylon five first gmail.com. It's the number five and the word first@gmail.com or on Twitter at Babylon. First, we're gonna throw all those in the bag along with the people who have left reviews in the meantime, and who entered in the season one giveaway as well.

We're gonna reach in, we're gonna draw it out, and we're gonna give away Captain John Sheridan right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us for this conversation about this season two finale, the fall of night. Please don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, wherever you're listening to us.

And like I said, head over, do the review, screenshot it, and send it to us. So Brent, until next time. Hey Jeff.

Brent: Yeah. I think you should apologize Appol

Jeff: for

Brent: what? For that absolutely terrible joke you said back during a race through dark Places

Jeff: is . Apologize for that. For doing my job. Like hell, peace and long life, eh?

Brent: That was with everything else. It's the thought that counts.

It's my,

that's a.

Jeff: Up there. Yeah. That's aana. Same series. 97. Oh yeah.

Brent: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, she, what, where's, oh, here we go. There you go. Uh, she gets a star fur. She gets a tiny star fur. Awesome. She

Jeff: can like throw

Brent: it at people. Yeah. And you can kind of, you can kind of see it. She has, she doesn't have the pointy finger.

She has a little, uh, I'm drinking tea. Oh, finger pinky. Yeah. Yeah. She's got the little, little pinky thing going on. Um, but also she has her communicator, uh, or her link, or whatever they call it. Mm-hmm. on the opposites hand that Jaran does.