Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.
Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.
And we get techno-mages...wizards on Babylon 5!!
Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.
Brent: I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babybel on five for the first time. Jeff and I are two veteran star Trek, podcasters watching Babybel on five. Well, you guessed. For the first time and we're searching for those star Trek, like messages, we're taking that lens that we have acquired as star Trek podcasters.
And we're applying that to Babylon five, trying to decide how much we like this series. Does it speak to us, give us hope for the future, all that sort of stuff.
Jeff: And while we're not a star Trek podcast, we are veteran star Trek podcasters. So those references are gonna show up from time to time. I think we do a pretty good job for the most part and staying focused on Babylon five.
But when they do come up, you're gonna hear this sound and we've limited ourselves to just three references, a piece. So Brent, use your references wisely.
Brent: Jeff let's play a game. We like our games. We do. I'm gonna play a game with you right now. Okay. This may be the only time we ever play this game. I'm gonna set the over under for star Trek references.
at one real total or per per for today's episode for today's episode one, I'm setting our over under one each. Okay. One each star Trek reference. Are you taking the over you taking the under? I'm
Jeff: looking at my notes. I'm cheating a little bit here. I'm gonna take the under,
Brent: I'm taking the under I'm with you.
I'm digging the under. Yeah, let's see what happens when we get to the end, because that rule starts right now out up. And that might be when we get
Jeff: to that spot later, might be a little bit of a spoiler alert by the way on, uh, when we get to the end of this on, on how things land. But Brent. Favorite part of the show and I have for us.
Oh yes. Five star review. This one comes to us off of pod chaser and is from our friends at the yum yum podcast. What up? Yum. Yums. I've mentioned Yu yum podcast before. Excellent Babylon five and star Trek. They get into all kinds of really great stuff. Check 'em out, Yumm podcast, anywhere you get them. But they say, I can't check them out
Brent: well, so you can, I'm not allowed to check them out.
Jeff: You can check out their non Babylon five episodes. Ooh, that's a good idea. I should do. Yeah. And it's well worth it. Well, the yum podcast says if you're wanting a podcast to listen along to, while you go through Babylon five for the first time, you can't go wrong here. As a person who's enjoyed this series before this podcast is good for a chuckle, but also a nice reminder of what it was like going through B five for the first time.
Seeing the guys have their doubts. And Cribbs about things that I did on my first watch really transports me back to watching, watching all those years ago, the podcast like many takes a few episodes to find its feet and groove in relation to format and discussion. But Jeff and Brent, get the grasp on it and have some truly interesting and fun views to bestow.
Be warned. If you're one of those diehard B five fans who can't stand people comparing things to star Trek, cuz you're gonna grind your teeth. Census podcast looks at babble on five from a Trek's point of view, which I personally find fun.
Brent: Thank you, yum. Yum. We also find it fun and uh, yeah, I, I often say that's what we're here for is to help people relive their first time.
Through our eyes out. I thought he was gonna say, uh, he was like, be warned if you don't like it. When people mispronounce Ava's name
Jeff: heads up heads up.
Brent: I was re-listening to the episode. TKO recently. Jeff, that's a good episode. I, I butchered her name and like, EV no, no, no, no. It was not a couple. It was like a couple dozen.
It was bad. Like I was listening to it going, oh, Brent, stop it. Oh, Brent, get her name.
Jeff: Right. And that was like her episode too. Yeah. Like, yeah.
Brent: Oh yeah. That might have been the episode where it started changing for me. Yeah. Like, like, I think somewhere in the middle of that, I was like, okay, that's not like, I've gotta you.
Oh, you corrected me. That's what it was. You
Jeff: corrected me. I finally had enough. right. Like, dude, come on. Oh, well, Hey Brent, we have another, yes. Another two, five star reviews. To share this with this one's from apple podcasts and it's from Brian brawl. This one cracks me up. What's up Brian Short to the point.
He says, dope, more fun than punching a sleeping baby.
Brent: Who punches a sleeping
Jeff: baby? Well, apparently it's fun. I mean that's yeah, it's great. Hey
Brent: Brian, listen, I would much rather you have more fun listening to us than punching sleeping babies. So please do actually once, once again, Jeff, I think we're doing our jobs out here. , we're
Jeff: saving, saving babies and giving you a view of babble on five.
Brent: babies one at a time.
Jeff: I wanted to share one other comment. This one's from our Twitter at Babylon first, you can follow us there. And this one is from a view from the peanut gallery at meatball honor, regular interactions on Twitter with them, but they have one that's super appropriate for today's episode.
And he said, so I think this is the episode where you talked about how Ja car's religiousness seems at odds with his politics. I think that's actually a great point about how nobody is really just one thing, a common theme on this show. Yeah.
Brent: I, I remember that first episode, uh, the one where we got LDO going hoo.
Yeah. With his fingers. Uh, but that was the one where, where Jaar was doing the whole Jaquan F with the flower and all that kind of stuff. Uh, this, the Jaquan thing certainly played its part in this episode. And, um, while it's, I still found it, find it a little, uh, Jing, I'm glad, you know what I like, it's kind of like with Garabaldi and his alcoholism, drinking water, as long as they carry it through and actually make it a part of the, the characters, uh, personality.
Like I I'm, I'm great with it. Yeah. And I don't mind them inserting something, you know, the writers just thought of something in episode 21 that they wanted to put in. Fine. Carry it through. Just don't forget it next week. That's that's I think when I get, been outta shape about it, but yeah, good point.
Jeff: Yeah. And I think appropriate for some conversation we'll have later on about Jaqua Jaquan, Kar, as he watches his, uh, compatriots get blown out of the sky. Well, we'll certainly
Brent: have time.
All right, Jeff. Well that let's start talking about this episode. That's a good idea.
This was in the mid nineties. Was it revelations with a Z at the end? there you go.
Brent: Jeff, what, what do you, what do you call a fish with? No eyes. What?
Jeff: Oh yeah. Oh, wow. Wow. Revelation.
Brent: Hold on,
Jeff: mark, mark. To edit that out. .
Brent: Listen. We like to guess what episodes are gonna be about based on the title of loan. But we usually save that for the end of the episode, guessing what next week's episode is gonna be, which means at the end of last week's episode, we guessed what this week was gonna be about.
Jeff, when you heard the word revelations, knowing that that was the only, that was the only thing you knew about this episode was the title. What did you think this week was
Jeff: gonna be about? I went deep cut and really specific, and I thought we were gonna get the return of the vicar, who was gonna give us a lot of revelations about Talia winters and her involvement with Cyco and Hey, Sycor got a mention.
So partial credit? No, none,
Brent: no none, no
Jeff: credit. Yeah. Whatsoever far afield on this one. Yeah. What did you, uh, what did you think it was gonna be? I,
Brent: I think all I said was it was gonna be Thelen coming out of the cocoon outside of that. Who knows, but I, if I got Dylan coming outta the cocoon, that is partial credit.
Jeff: If I remember right. Like you were adamant too, you're like, this will happen. it's like, uh, yeah. I, it has to, it started happening in the last episode. Like
Brent: can you imagine if like the only thing that happened with the cocoon this week was like, somewhere in the middle of it, we saw it shake again, and then they just kept going.
Jeff: that was almost gonna happen when linear was just like wiping it down and awkwardly saying soon, soon, I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna stretch this out
Brent: further. He, he was getting freaky with that thing, Uhhuh. I was just saying like, yeah, dude, linear, we gotta have a talk P go find a motorcycle to make or something.
Jeff: Well, we are already diving into this. So for those who, it might have been a while, since you've seen this episode, are those who simply haven't watched and are listening to us anyway. Brent, why don't you tell us what happened in this episode?
Brent: Well, Hey, do you guys re Hey, do you guys remember all of those threads that were laid back in the season?
One finale that weren't cleaned up in the season two opener last week? Well, that's what this episode is. Let's start with Jaar. Remember Jaar was left. Remember Jaar had left the station to check on the destruction of a Narn outpost out near the rim. It had been completely obliterated by these weird spectral ships who are having their way with the Narn fighter fleet and by fleet.
I mean three Narn ships, the NANS are retreating, but they're not gonna make it. So Kars escorts, turnaround and attack those alien ships buying time for Jaar to jump gate out of there. I just need to know is jump gate a verb? Yes. Like, can we use that as a verb? Jump gating? Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm gonna jump gate outta here.
Right? Well, Jaar is hightailing it back to Babbel on five. As opposed to his home world, where he immediately calls a council meeting, he explains that an ancient enemy has resurfaced
an enemy that used to live in those worlds way out on the rim during Wan's day. And after a thousand years, they have resurfaced and everyone is in mortal danger. Of course the others aren't so quick to take action on the religious superstitions of one alien race, but they do agree to send a ship, to kind of go scan for life out on tho those worlds out in the rim and see what's what, before they make any decisions, which really kind of sucks for those ships because Morden, you remember him though?
What do you want? Guy has asked LDO to keep him informed of anything that he hears about having to do with the rim. And so LDO immediately scams off to go tell Morden the latest news. So when those ships show up to, so when those ships show up to scan for life, they're immediately blown out of the sky or space and Ja car looks at lawn like, yeah, you Dudy rat, you Dudy rat, but he doesn't have any proof.
And that's where we're gonna leave their story for today's episode. Meanwhile, while all of that is happening, Sheridan is getting a visit from his sister. Yay. It's time to learn more about the backstory of our new captain. He had a wife, her name was Anna, but she died in a ship explosion thingy, and Sheridan feels personally responsible, very personally responsible.
And then in the next scene, he was still feeling personally responsible. And in the next scene, he was still feeling personally responsible. Okay. You guys get the idea? Because it turns out he wasn't really responsible cuz Anna was gonna go on that ship anyway, before Sheridan even tried to break off their anniversary date, which is what he thought pushed her onto that ship in the first place.
So with this new information, Sheridan seems to finally let himself off the hook and that's already way too much discussion on this in a plot line. Hey, remember Aldi, he got shot in the back by one of his own men. Right? Well, he doesn't remember that, but he wakes up and thanks to Dr. Franklin using that alien device from one of those episodes.
Last season, Gar Baldy has to know what happened. So he go gets Talia to come and scan his mind and they discover who it was. They go beat him up. They give him a punch for the chief. They lock him up. That is until the new president, president Clark personally calls Sheridan to order that the prisoner and all of his files be transferred.
and of course, during transit, they all go missing because that's how it goes. And Garabaldi suspects that it's side core's work because his dude gave a tip of the hat like baster did. So anyway, what we know is it's not home guard. That's what there seemed to entail is it's just not home guard, but they think it might be Cyco or someone else who knows.
And that brings us to our final piece of wrap up. Thelen. Now in the last episode, we saw the cocoons start to break open. And in this one, it fully breaks open because of course I was right. I don't know how I do it so well, Jeff Thelen emerges from the cocoon, but they don't let us see her of course, because they're trying, oh, so hard to hide the big reveal for her later on in the episode.
But for now we just see her hand, which is looking very reptilian with scaling all over her body. Eventually we see her face and we happen to notice that she's already starting to turn back to normal because the inside of her mouth and the inside of her nose are completely untouched by the scaling.
They call Dr. Franklin to come help because they say that he is needed more so than a Mumbar doctor. Hmm. I wonder why that could be Dr. Franklin discovers that the scales are cracking and peeling all over her body, which if you've ever had to peel the skin off an old dead sunburn, that just could have been an awesome time right there.
Anyway, we later get to see the lens who removes her hood in front of the council. And we see that she now has hair hair what's with the hair and her ears have moved from her neck into a more normal human position. And she has a new facial structure with no funny uni brow bone anymore. But she still has that Mumbar head wrap and her voice is clearly the same.
So it's still her. And she says that justice Sinclair has been invited to minbar to serve as a human representative there, this transformation that she has undergone is meant to serve as a way for lend to be a more acceptable representative of minbar to earth, or at least the humans on Babylon five, because she kind of looks like one of us now.
And with that, this episode was finally over.
Jeff, what did you think about this episode revelations? Well,
Jeff: I think this was, um, This was, this was an important episode for Sheridan. I think, I think this did a lot in, in a lot of time to, uh, to just add a little more depth to him. And we talked about this last week, but even in his first appearance, he had more depth than Sinclair now.
Like he is such a fully fleshed out person and character. I, I think the whole thing there was super cliche and I mean, you could read the writing. Like I could almost just see the words coming out as it, as it went through. And it was just like, I mean, it's awesome. And it's great. And he did a lot with it, but also, oh, it's like really, this we're just gonna do.
Brent: Okay. Is it, was it cliche in the early nineties? It's cliche now because we've seen it so many times, but was it still cliche in the early nineties or was that like new and fresh back then? I don't think it
Jeff: was. I just, that whole you left because of me in the, in I messed, messed up. It's my oh, like, yeah.
It's every sitcom and, and every, I don't know. I don't know, but I did like the twist at the end and I have some, I think there's some really cool things that happened through that a little bit. And I had a, I personally resonated with like his real beef with the whole thing, you know, that, that he didn't get to say, I love you at the end.
And I was like, I, I feel you there. I get that. You don't
Brent: no, I don't. I don't sorry. I was gonna let you continue, but no, it's good. I found that to be so cheesy. He, he was more concerned about not having told her that he loved her than he was about actually using her. No, I don't believe it. That may be yet another excuse that he has for not getting over it and not moving on with his life.
But that is the limit of what I will give it is it's an excuse for him to stay here's Ooh, I'm not even, Ooh. Ooh, Jeff. I said it at one and I took the you're
Jeff: gonna blow it. You're
Brent: gonna blow it right here. I'm gonna blow it. It is the exact same thing to me that the, um, the profits said to Cisco mm-hmm oh, is this a place where deep fish nine and, and, and Babylon five overlap with storylines.
Anyway, it's the exact same thing that, that, where they said to him in the very first episode you remain here, you live here in this moment. You've never gotten past this moment. You gotta get past this moment. That's what Sheridan's doing. He's living here in this moment. and he's not getting past it. And that's just part of his excuse for why it's okay.
That he stays there and it really ought not to be, cause he really just, okay, so sorry, people, you know, I know everybody out there, Jeff, they all took the over. I said it at one, everybody out there who laid money, they took the O I mean it's, it's at sports booky.com and they all went and put a bet on it.
Jeff: it was, it was smart money. No. So for me, two years ago, three years ago, if I watched this, I would've been, I would've a hundred percent agreed with you, but in may of 2020, my mom died and may of 2020, we were deep in the throes of responses to COVID right. Mm-hmm . So at that 0.0 contact don't go, you know, anything.
My dad had had pneumonia and lung cancer. high risk. You know, everything. He actually passed away a few months ago from a relapse in the lung cancer, but she died. And the last time I got to see her was February of 2020. I didn't get to see her between February and may because we were basically told to not go see people.
Mm-hmm I never got to say goodbye to her. She went now a, a neat part of that story. And just since we're, I mean, it's not necessarily a reference, but it's part of the thing is the last thing I got to do with my mom was sit and watch star Trek. We got to watch the Enson of command together. And, uh, that's a, a memory, a thing that we always had growing up.
Um, I did, my whole life was watch star Trek with her, but I didn't get to say goodbye to her. Now when my dad passed away, I was with him. I watched it happen. It was mm-hmm it was as good as a thing like that could be, and it. I'm not stuck in that place with my mom. Mm-hmm but when Sheridan, they were at dinner, right.
And he started saying, you know, you know what we always said to each other, we always said, I love you. I didn't get to do that. That hit me in the face. And I was just like, I feel you, like, I get that. I'm not stuck there. And I, and I am moving on with my life. And I did mourn and grieve, grieve my mom when she passed.
But to this day, years later, there's times, I'm just like, I really wish I got to say goodbye to her the same way I got to say goodbye to my dad. And so I think, you know, I've talked quite a few times on this, on this podcast about my lived experience helps me appreciate this show so much more. We talked about that with believers, right?
Watching that without having a kid is a much different experience. I think this moment here, if I hadn't had that experience with my mom, I would've felt exactly the same as you, but that experience for me, I was just like, All right. I I've got this. I, I have a connection. I have a connection with Sheridan.
Brent: You know, I mean, you mentioned that and I sit back and I'm trying to think of, do I have any loved ones, a grandparent, uh, uh, anyone else that maybe I didn't get to say goodbye to, and everybody that I've needed to say goodbye to who've passed on in my life. I've had the AR I've had the opportunity one way or another to be able to say goodbye.
So that is, that's a good point. That's an experience I've not had, which may be why I'm kind of taking a more, uh, chagrin experience to it, but you're putting a real life experience to it. And I respect that and appreciate your thoughts on that.
Jeff: Yeah. Well, thanks. And hopefully a lot of people haven't experience that cuz it sucks.
it sucks a lot. I did. I did like that. We're getting the slow reveal on the, on the big enemy, right? Uh, the Kar and every, I think Kar was. In this episode, I really liked him. Mm-hmm I liked that they even stretched out the dilemma reveal, you know, like just, that was pretty good. And God, what? I don't know. I have a, I did not like the reveal on the assassin.
I didn't like the pre the way the president got involved, that whole piece, but I did like Cy, apparently the big bads and I feel pretty good about that. We've been calling that all along well since war prayer. Well, you
Brent: know, or mind, here's the thing it's hard for me to talk about big, bad, because I feel like this show's gonna have more than one.
Oh yeah. My like there's the big, bad, and then bigger, bad .
Jeff: Well, my exact note is they're the big, bad, they're the big bads on earth. Like in one planet in one political system. They're the big bads.
Brent: Well, maybe home guards, the big bads on earth and psych course, the big bads on Mars, cuz isn't that where they're.
Their bases or something like
Jeff: that. But apparently home guard, home guard are just a bunch of misfits, apparently.
Brent: Yeah. Well, you know, they're all fighting amongst themselves. Hey, um, I do wanna talk about the bad guy for just a second. Okay. Cuz I, I did in no way shape or form pickup on the best or hat tip thing, like they said it and I'm like, I don't even remember him doing that.
Do you remember Walter? Kig doing that in his
Jeff: episode? No, but I went back and watched it. I, I went back. I didn't watch the whole episode cuz it's not a good episode, but I skipped around to see it and yeah, he, as he was going off he's boom. Just, just, just hit. Interesting. So I didn't remember it at all.
Like literally. Yeah. He did that little salute thing in there and I'm just like, well, that's stupid. what is that?
Brent: so the, I mean, again, I like it when shows, pull out stuff from old episodes and do that Jeff, when we do our show after this one, which will be Stargate SG one mm-hmm , that's one of those things about that show that I love.
And it's, it's not serialized like this show is, but they do go back and reference those in what happens in one episode does stick with them. It reverberates down the line. So, yeah. Um, I appreciated that with, with them and I'm, I ha we both know, like they're building Cyco to be a big thing. Mm-hmm , um, they're also building home guard to be a thing, and they're also building.
This season, I think you said is called coming of shadows or something. Whatever the shadow thing is. And I wanna talk about that. I'm assuming, well, I I'll talk about that in a minute. I'm I'm kind of anxious, Jeff, to get back to CCO. I want to build Cyco a little bit more like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I wanna, we've had enough time since our last true Cyco episode.
Like I, I wanna further that next, that next step with Cyco.
Jeff: Yeah. Cuz I mean, we had Tolio winters a little bit with um, oh gosh, with the killer dude, uh, Carl Mueller mm-hmm going in and then we had Herman gray and eyes, but those were like glimpses of Cyco prior to that. Yeah. It's been got a long time since the deep, well,
Brent: I mean, I, I, there was eyes and then there was, um, it was the one with the two.
When the, the guys, like the two nights or whatever, wasn't that a C core thing?
Jeff: I don't think they were CCO. Cuz they were using just tech to do that. Oh, they might have,
Brent: oh, that's right. That's
Jeff: right. That's I think it was before, even that like it's been, uh, mind, mind, mind, uh, mind war Uhhuh and then a little bit here, like mentions.
Brent: Oh no, no, no, there was that, there was that little girl, the little girl that came up with side powers that was towards the end of the season one. That one. Um, yeah, it's I'm ready to build more, more Cy core. So I hope we get more of that home guard. I I'm, I'm kind of glad to let them be the misfits, like the little specter that's annoying.
It's like the flee just sort of flick off your arm every once in a while, but CCO Cyco is gonna be a thing and then, um, whatever the heck's going on with the VLAN, but then whatever this coming of shadows is. Um, do you wanna talk, can we talk about that just for a second? Yeah,
Jeff: let's get into it. Yeah.
Brent: So, okay.
Here's where I am on the whole shadows thing, because this is a phrase we keep hearing. And I'm gonna put this question to you. I'm just, I wanna know what you think because I'm kind of 50 50 on it. When they're referring to shadows, are the shadows like a group or like an organization or a religious sec or whatever that apparently Morden is a part of and these like weird ships and stuff are like, it that's the shadows or are the sh when they talk about shadows, is that like a metaphor for the various bad guys?
Like the shadows are coming in it, and by that, it just means it's the, it's the collective of all the bad crap. That's about to happen. You know, like Cy core cast to shadow and home guard, cast to shadow and whatever that Morden people out on the rim are doing is casting a shadow. What, what do you think the shadows, is it one specific thing or is it kind of the collective
Jeff: of all?
The little bit of doubt that you've plugged into my head is the fact that like Jaar and the gray council keep talking about the darkness, right? It's the darkness that's coming. The shadow puts that calling the shadows puts that in a different light a little bit, but up until you kind of phrased it that way, my thought was that the shadows are a race, a species group that apparently live on Zaha doom is the, is the planet.
And they're they're, they were like the super race that mm-hmm apparently Jaquan helped fight a thousand years ago. So I think the shadows are what just like, that's what they call. Whatever that that race was. So
Brent: that's a, that's a, so, so you're thinking it's in reference to a specific race, not just a coming of all things
I think it's, yeah. I think it's a specific okay. Group and that they've contracted with or created Morden to be like their intermediary into the, uh, civil civilized. Part of the galaxy is, is more
Brent: than human or is he like somebody they've just made to look human?
Jeff: I don't, I kind of don't think he's hum. I think he's something else.
Yeah. I think he might be a construc. I don't know. This is totally just, uh, but like a construct the shadows have, have been made. I don't know if interesting. Some, some, you know that, Hey, we need some human something. To go and, and, and set this stuff we had, they grew 'em like an Ori, right? Exactly. Or Gola inside ALO AEL lot tank.
They could be. Ooh. Yeah. They're the TWI. Sorry. A lot of dune references here. Mm-hmm you're gonna get those from me. Um,
Brent: okay. So shadows. Okay. Um, so what is, so shadows are big, bad guys. Like apparently whatever, whatever situation the, these people out from the rim, these ships came in and just completely obliterated and destroyed an entire outpost.
The ships were pretty dang powerful. They kind of phase in and out mm-hmm of, of viewing. They were,
Jeff: the ships were wobbly, right? Like they had like a they're
Brent: kind of jelly fishy almost. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's weird and Morden apparently can speak into the air and they can talk to 'em mm-hmm . so there's that guy and they live out on the rim.
Jeff: Okay. The thing I found interesting, there was Ja Kar kept talking about Jaquan and hearing the book of Jaquan and the, these things a thousand years ago. And they speaks of this race from the rim. And I'm like, it's been a thousand years mm-hmm and it's the same rim. And also were NANS exploring out on the rim a thousand years ago, because if they were that far out and fighting with the shadows a thousand years ago, what the heck happened?
How did the Anari bowl over them? Did they have zero technological advancements in, in, in, in a millennia? I don't know. I, I, I have a lot of questions. Like I wanna say there's a lot of holes in the Jaquan story, but I'm gonna just say there, you know, there's holes yet to be filled in. I mean,
Brent: for, for earth, Even earth in the Babylon five timeline, which is like 2250 ish.
Right. Mm-hmm so a thousand years ago was 1250. We're clearly in the middle ages. Yeah. At that point mm-hmm right. Like, um, that's how far we've come in a thousand years is from the middle ages all the way to running this whole big space station. Where is everybody else come from?
Jeff: Yeah. Cause the NANS were fighting out at Zaha doom a thousand years ago, and now they're still sending ships out to Zaha do, and that's all that's changed and the shadows are still rocking them.
Right. Because I mean, they were waiting for 'em because I Morden and just they're gone.
Brent: Right. I gotta tell you, this makes you wanna know a little bit more about Jaquan mm-hmm you know, like he's apparently a, a religious figure who was a real person, or at least were led to believe he was a real person at some point.
Um, And they, they wrote this whole thing. Like I kind of feel like there's a story and I love this in storytelling, Jeff. I, I often reference Harry Potter when I talk about this, because I think Harry Potter just did it. So masterfully and Harry Potter, there's two stories happening. There's the story of Harry as he's going from year to year in what's going on, but at the same time, he's uncovering the story of what happened with his parents.
Mm-hmm and what happened with Voldemort and what happened? You know, like he's uncovering all of the stuff that he never knew while his own story is happening. That's a great way to, to write science, to write fiction. And I don't know that they're gonna dive too much into Jaquan, and this is all gonna be about discovery of what happened with Jaquan a thousand years ago.
But I really kind of want to know what that backstory is now with Jaquan and kind of what his deal is.
Jeff: Had a lot of that's. It's interesting too, when Kar is out on the rim with the other fighters and they get blown up, he says a little prayer, right? He's like, you know, may, may Jaquan bless your name and, you know, be, and it struck me that Jaquan isn't the deity Jaquan is like a prophet, you know, mm-hmm so he's calling on Jaquan to, so there's a, a higher Nan deity of some kind, but it's, as you were talking, I'm like, I don't want to do this, but I have to Jaquan sounds to me like he's the Kaus of the Nan he's that great military leader that had a philosophy that, that formed, uh, you know, an entire, at least part of society.
Brent: I'm glad you said it because that's what I was thinking. And I just didn't want to use another reference.
Jeff: well, Hey everybody who took the over congratulations. There you go. There you go. There you go.
Brent: Although we haven't technically gone over. We're still at the we're we're at it. We're at the bar. Yeah, but if you took the under, then you lost anyway.
Uh, Jeff, let's talk about Sheridan.
Jeff: Okay. Well, first before we get off the Narn. Okay. Okay. Can we really quickly talk about the casting change? What casting change the new NATA. This is not
Brent: a new NATA.
Jeff: It is a new NATA. No, it is not. It's a new actor.
Brent: No, it is not. Yeah. Why is this a new actor? I did not notice that at all.
Jeff: So I don't think you're gonna go back and watch this one. but if you do okay. Notice that she doesn't talk. And like when they're at the council meeting and everyone else is talking, she's just quiet until she comes up. To to somebody. I don't even remember who she talked to cuz, but she sounds weak. She sounds pathetic.
I, she has no edge. She's lost every bit of tough that came with her. I do not like this Netta at all. I can't believe you didn't like you weren't off, but she was so she was, so it was so off putting to me that I had to go and look at the credits for this episode. Cause I'm like, there's no way. She's this terrible.
All of a sudden, huh? Whole new actor. Interesting. I don't know why. I don't know what happened, but I want the old one back. Interesting.
Brent: Interesting. Well maybe this new, one's gonna get a little bit of the edge. I honestly, just, when she wasn't talking at all, I took that as like NATA, just being so superior to, uh, lawn that she wasn't even going to acknowledge him.
Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's the way I took it, but I, I don't know. I. Wow. I didn't why.
Jeff: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And apparently didn't, I mean, I I'm guessing they just didn't wanna throw another aid out of an airlock. So they're like, well, we'll just keep calling her net off. But yeah, she was came across very different to me.
And I did not, did not
Brent: like her, but when you're, I mean, when you're under full makeup like that, you can just change actors and it's not a big deal. Yeah. You know? Um, I mean, you know, sometimes they even do that with royalty. Right.
Um, actually let's talk about lawn real quick. Okay. This is Hills will be short and sweet. So the other, the other shoe has now dropped. Morden does stuff for him. And now he says, Hey, tell us what's what if you ever hear about anything out on the rim? Not anywhere else, not keep us, you know, keep us inform of, just tell us if you hear about.
anything having to do with what we're doing way out there. Are they aware of us? Like, that's all we need to know. and lawn did it. Mm-hmm I was a little surprised he did it. Yeah. Well, because that makes, that makes lawn like the informant, you know? Yeah. But I
Jeff: also think he knows how the game is played, you know?
And if he didn't say something and they found out that he knew, he, he knows he, I think that's the thing too. His, the facial expressions mm-hmm that, that the actor Jurassic was, was putting through. He knows, like he knows, you know, he's like, this is wrong. This is dirty, but it's like his last grasp. But that greatness within his society, even though he knows, he doesn't even really want it anymore.
Brent: And getting rid of the Narn home world entirely.
Jeff: Yeah. In time, uh, in time in time. Did you catch in that when he was. When he was like, yeah, get rid of the Narn home world. He's like one time in time. But Morgan even said, he said beyond, beyond a shadow of a doubt, because he said something like, Hey, can, can we do this thing?
Oh, but beyond a shadow of a doubt, I was like, oh, that's good.
Brent: That's good. I didn't, I missed that one altogether. All right. So there's lawn. Lawn's gonna be this guy. Cause the thing is, lawn's gotta be one of our good guys, right? Mm-hmm like we, I mean, by the end lawn's gotta be on the right side.
Jeff: But I think lawn right now is Hoggle in labyrinth where he is betraying.
Um, Sarah and mm-hmm , but he doesn't want to, and he's gonna, some they're gonna find out, right. They're gonna find out mm-hmm and he's gonna be on the outs, but then it'll be a big, you know, oh, Harray we've come back. And I think part of what's gonna make that happen.
Brent: Will it be Aslan coming and redeeming him and
Jeff: all that.
Yeah, exactly. But I think it's also gonna be, we're seeing some of the, the car, the, the pavement laid for this now is Kar and how, when he and Orlando were talking and he is like, look, we're never gonna be cool till every single one of you is dead. Like, that's just how this is, is also pause on that because there's something much bigger than that.
And we're gonna totally be cool for the next little while. Right? That's
Brent: you definitely the road. You definitely see the, this is how they become friends kind of a thing. Mm-hmm which I really hope they don't. Like, I hope that it's written in the rules somewhere that lawn and car can never be friends ever.
So, because it ruins that part of the show.
Jeff: It's one of the things that I loved about. OTO and cork and deep space nine, how, even at the end, when everyone knew, like they loved each other and they needed each other and whatever, they were still like, uh, yeah. Uh, stroke off, dude. right. You know, like they were still to their faces, like, Nope, Nope.
I hate you yous. Horrible. And I will arrest you and yeah. Mm-hmm that was, I think that was, that needs to be this, you can be best bros or whatever, but you still need to kind
Brent: of hate each other. Yeah. Yeah. I'm for that. I'm for that. Okay. Let's get into talk about Sheridan. This whole storyline to me now you had an emotional connect with it.
So awesome for me. I was so bored with it. I was bored with this whole episode. I gotta be honest. Yeah. The episode as a whole, like you said, it at the beginning, this was an important episode. This was an episode that we had to have for story purposes, cuz it's where they reset everybody. But I don't ever need to see this episode again.
like, it's just, it's, it's almost mind numbing to me where this is like, like, I don't even have an ex I don't even have a comparison for it. That's that's how inane this episode is to me. Um,
Jeff: this Sheridan story was two, maybe three scenes. Total was the total story arc, right? Oh, Hey, my sister. I'm so happy to see you.
Oh, I have this problem in conflict with my sister and my, my, my, my, my wife. Mm-hmm oh, and now I had this realization, but they had multiple scenes in multiple acts of this. You were in your recap people. I mean, just time after time, after time they beat this,
Brent: I get it. He feels guilty. He feels guilty. I got it.
All right. Here's my question about this whole thing. Remember the scene where Sheridan goes to the med lab and he is like, yo doc Franklin hooked me up Uhhuh. Okay. So Sheridan has a death wish. It seems like, okay. Or he's a little cavalier with himself, you know, who else had a death wish or was very, very cavalier with himself.
Jeff: Commander Jeff
Brent: Sinclair, commander, Jeff Sinclair. And so I'm, I'm wondering, you know, we know Sheridan's the new guy and Sinclair's out and, and storylines being what they are. Did JMS just take some of the stuff that he had planned for Sheridan or for, for Sinclair and transfer it over to Sheridan or did he like, okay, Sinclair's gotta be this kind of person and I gotta make Sinclair or Sheridan that I gotta give him his own reason to be that way.
Yeah. So that he can do what Sinclair was going to do. Like, like from a writing standpoint, like I, it takes the teeth outta Sheridan for me. Like I loved, remember we met Sheridan last week. Like I loved how different from Sinclair. He was agreed. Yeah. You know, um, and that's nothing against Michael here. I just, Sinclair just wasn't going in the right direction.
It didn't feel like to me,
Jeff: well, let me, let me paint that scene in a different light, maybe for you and see if it makes a difference as a, as a leader of a massive, massive, you know, organization like Babylon five, you have to understand that you as the leader are the, you're the least important person there.
I mean, he just replaced the last commander and objectively is probably the worst choice to, to be leading the station. We, we learned that in points of departure mm-hmm leaders understand that, that they they're there to support the skilled people around them to, to do the things they want to do. I read that scene as him coming in, not, not with a death wish, but with one.
You are the only person that has any understanding of this device whatsoever two you're our chief medical officer. And if something happens to you, that will be devastating for this entire station. It is better that you put me at risk, the replaceable commander of this station than you, the person who has sole knowledge of this and has the expertise you do as a medical professional, I actually saw him flexing leadership muscles in this scene.
Brent: I would be with you except for one thing, let us not forget the medical chief medical guy has already been replaced. So he is very replaceable himself as well,
Jeff: but it took time. It took, it took a chunk of time for that to happen. They went without a CMO for a while. Yeah. Yeah.
Brent: So what do you, what do you think about how this sheds new light on Sheridan and his.
Character his backstory. Does this affect how you see him at all? What does this do for you in terms of our brand new captain on chip? It tells me
Jeff: yeah, station, right? It tells me that he internalizes big failures, right. Or what he perceives to be big failures. And this is a character flaw, right? For someone in, in this, in that kind of role, I made this decision, I perceived it this way and now I've gone years blaming myself and doing stuff.
I internalized that whole thing. And I don't think that's a good thing for a leader.
Brent: Is this gonna be something you think that we see going forward with him or is this a kind of a one off episode just to sort of get a little bit of a backstory from him and then we move forward with
Jeff: him. So my guess is that this is a one off to get a little backstory from him.
The part of this story, I think that will carry through though. And it's one little tiny line when he's, he's watching the weird, like date, me video that his wife left for him. Uhhuh. like you remember the old, like the
Brent: old swap. Yeah, I exactly. What you're talking about VHS is man. Hey, real quick before you say that, I just want to remind everybody out there.
Please don't answer this question. No spoilers. Like this is Jeff and I forecasting something. We don't know. Please don't actually answer it. Just leave it at no spoilers. Cause I think
Jeff: this might be a big thing. Honestly, her ship was randomly destroyed by an unknown species out on the rim. I'm willing to bet that she got blown up near Zha doom.
That's gonna come out that she was killed and her ship was blown up by the shadows. And now he's gonna have a personal stake in this. I missed
Brent: that. That's what happened to her ship. I just got, it was randomly blown up. I missed that. It was out by the rim that it was by an unknown race. Like
Jeff: I picked that up today when I watched it for the third time.
Brent: Interesting. Okay. Okay. I mean, how, how could it not be that? How could that not be what happens? Okay.
Jeff: Yeah. Cause otherwise this is just a whole storyline to say, oh, by the way, here's some screen time for Sheridan and he's sympathetic, eh, a little bit, but that little nugget in there I think is gonna be the piece that carries through.
Brent: All right. So Aldi's awake. Yeah. We already talked a little bit about Talia, uh, in that whole situation. Um, but his whole thing he's awake and they got the other dude off the station.
Jeff: It was wildly inappropriate. That Garabaldi question. The, the, uh, his aid, the, the guy that was, yeah, there was nothing okay.
With that Garabaldi should have known better and someone should have put a stop to that. That was not
Brent: okay. Yeah. Well, they didn't care well
Jeff: made for a good scene, right. sure. Yeah, sure. And
Brent: they've already paid, you know, what's his name? Jeffrey Doyle or whatever his name is Jerry. Yeah. Jerry Doyle, Jerry Doyle.
They already paid him to say lines, so yeah. Let's not pay somebody
Jeff: else. Right. But I was so a couple things I had. So one, I mean, it was just, I mean, so obvious, right. That the president's gonna call and we're, this is gonna happen. And I'm sure it's important, but it was just so transparent at first. I had, I had an initial reaction mm-hmm when they're like, oh my God, we sent him and all the evidence, what are we gonna do?
My first thought was. Make copies. Yeah. Don't you have a stinking backup. It's the 23rd century. What's wrong with you people. But then my other thought was the only evidence you have is Talia winters, which is not admissible in court. So any evidence they gave for him, would've made him look like idiots and all it would do is potentially convict him of attempted murder.
Yeah. But, but Hey, I'm glad Gar bald is awake. I missed him. Hey Gar. Well, like
Brent: again, we have to, we, we gotta get our crew back, right? Mm-hmm like Ja car's back on the station de lens's out of the cocoon. Gar Baldy is awake. Sheridan doesn't feel guilty anymore. They're ready. All right. Let's talk about delin.
As we wrap this up, then Jeff lens got hair. Yeah. There's that? And, uh, she looks like a human sort of, she looks like human with the head wrap mm-hmm
Jeff: Sheridan's sister asked the most important question in this whole episode, which was. Was there a change to her genetic structure or anything like that. And Sheridan's like, I don't know.
We didn't think to ask what, like, yeah. Okay. That's the question that I want to know too. I was, um, I was very underwhelmed by this.
Brent: So what, so is the idea that she went into a cocoon and she changed to become more human so that people can talk to her more or she's a bridge between the two cultures now or like I'm still not entirely clear on what she was referencing.
Jeff: think, well, first she referenced just a, I don't know if this is like a red con, which, you know, again, told doesn't happen in this, or if she's just blatantly lying, but she made a point of saying that she went through this transformation with the blessing of her government that I
Brent: would say she's.
She's either lying or it's the, the government was like, well, you've done it now. So I guess fine. And,
Jeff: or, yeah, that, it was such a point, like such a point
Brent: with it's it's like, it's like, it's like, uh, uh, you know, a daughter coming home, like showing off her new fiance to her dad and asking for his permission and dad's like, well, you're gonna marry him anyway.
Like, it doesn't matter if I like him or not, you're gonna do it either way. So yeah. I guess you have my blessing, even though you don't
Jeff: really, but . Yeah. Now I think, I think that what it is, she, she transformed and she's part, she's the melding of human and Menari. We talked about this a couple episodes ago, back in season one, maybe, or maybe in the season one wrap up, but mm-hmm yeah.
She's, she's the melding of human. Well, she, she is what
Brent: I was actually saying. Sinclair was yes. Like I was saying, Sinclair was literally like a combination of the two and it's like, that's what she has just become. um, you know, it, we still don't know why Mumbar souls are winding up inside humans
Jeff: or what that means, or like in my head, that means like they'll activate at some point and they'll have, you know, mm-hmm characteristics of or something.
And, but, but who knows? I
Brent: don't know. Well, maybe that's what started the whole space revolution back in the fifties and just propelled us so fast
Jeff: out there. Yeah. Getting those, those souls coming and being like, Hey, what if we did this made a rocket ship, but I still don't understand why before she went and put the tinker toys together and kicked off this cocoon thing, she, she told.
Gosh to whip it out and show her. And he did and why, why I still, like, what does that have to do? Is he part human? Well,
Brent: she, she did say she's like, oh, now that I've seen it, now I'm gonna keep going. Mm-hmm like, was she like sitting there? Like, oh, I I've seen all the permutations and we're in the endgame now there's only one way to do this.
Jeff: Yeah. Or maybe the VLAN are the combination of like the VRA and the lawn care thing. So that became the VLAN. Like maybe like that was an evolution that led to them. And so she's like, does this really work out? Okay. Is this cool? And he's like, yes. In the hour of scampering things are all great.
Brent: Maybe, maybe there's something about when you see a VLAN, like their, their actual body, like you see the future or you see how things go in your own life.
Mm. And that's what it was. Oh yeah.
Jeff: Maybe, and maybe that's why Le Alexander got called back to earth. Cuz she saw all the evil, like Cyco earth stuff that's going on.
Brent: Right, right. Everybody out there right now they're trying to click, click on their board and don't do it. Well, I can't and I, I wanna say, but I can't because no spoilers.
Thank you for not spoiling guys. Appreciate that. All right. So she has hair. Yay.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean that's gotta be really, really nice. Yeah. For the actor. Right. I mean that's probably like three, four hours less in the makeup chair every day. Right,
Brent: right. Yeah. But bill mummy, him, he's gotta stay. Hey, did he get a new head wrap thing in this episode?
Or like more color on his ed wrap up as ed wrap thing?
Jeff: Maybe a little more definition too. I think. Yeah. We talked about this last more contrast. Yeah. He had like a little more texture to his face even last week and I think they just kind of gave him a, a dress up little, little, uh, made him
Brent: look a little older, so.
Okay. Well let's say this. So we're two episodes into season too. The show looks noticeably different. Mm-hmm like new effects, new sets, new colors, new uniforms, new, like it's like somebody came and gave 'em a gift in the off season and said here up your show. Yeah. So I don't, I, I don't know that the budget ever actually increased just based on what people have said.
They're like, yeah. The budget for Babylon five was like a quarter of that, of the other show. Mm-hmm , uh, I don't know that it really ever changed, but it, it does maybe. I don't know. It, it looks good though. Like, I like what they're doing now. Yeah. It
Jeff: looks better. It just it's more open. Like, if that makes sense, like, I don't feel confined when I'm in the station.
Brent: Yeah. Like with Sinclair, everything felt very dark all the time. Yeah. You know, it confines a good word. Jeff confines. A very good word.
Well, Jeff, uh, unless you have anything else. I think we have reached that part of the show where we boil this all down and see if there's any of that star Treky quality to this show. Uh, does it have a deep moral message or is it holding up a mirror to society? Giving us hope for the future, telling us how we ought to live?
Is it posing a question and then leaving us to answer it? Uh, so we're gonna rate this show and I'm gonna do deltas this time. Jeff, I'm gonna rate zero to five deltas to say how star Trek this episode is, but you, Jeff are gonna rate this on zero to five star theories of just saying how much did we enjoy the episode?
I can't don't think we can say how babble on five it is, but how much did you just enjoy the episode? Zero to five star furious. I got Delta. Uh, would you like to go
Jeff: first? Go ahead. Sure. Yeah. And, and, you know, I want to kind of address a thing. I realized listening back to our episodes, we actually said the star theories were going to be what we thought, how Babylon five a thing was, but we're self-aware we know what's up.
We're just gonna do how much we liked the episode. there you go. Like I said, like this, this did some stuff for Sheridan and I, it like, like you said, in the recap, it primed the pump more for the rest of the season, took the rest of those threads that were laying up. We see more of Len, we have a home world for the ancient enemy.
Kar was pretty great in this one, I thought, but I mean, outside of that, there just wasn't a lot to this episode and they spent so much time on that Sheridan piece also. I thought it was really interesting that when his sister came on board and they showed like the, uh, arrival gates that they've really done a lot of dress up in mm-hmm it looked like a geo city's webpage.
right. And I don't know if this was on probably cuz we both watched it on HBO max, but they had a newscaster and like the upper left, who was, he had the, you know, like the TV screen or whatever next to him talking, it was a green screen behind him. And I'm wondering if they just forgot to like composite something in behind?
Was it wrong? I didn't even
Brent: notice that. Yeah. Oh, I should go
Jeff: look at that. But I mean, yeah, it, it, outside of a few little pieces, it was an okay episode. I'm not gonna watch this one ever again. I watched it twice. I'm gonna give this one, one and a half star, the. It feels like
Brent: about one star fury, too many for
Jeff: me, Jeff, I was waffling between one and one and a half, but maybe two star furries,
Brent: too many.
Wow. Can we go negative star furious? Wow. This episode was so me for me, but it's yours to give. So you gave one and a half. Let's start star Trek. Let's do that. All right. Cuz I don't have any more buzzers now. So here we go. Um, this episode reminded me a lot of that episode in next generation where the little kid had his parents die and he started following data around mm-hmm trying to be like, like all emotionless.
It was a slog of an episode to get through. There was just so much going on. I fully understand why this episode is important to the run, but like I'm sitting there thinking like if this was a star Trek episode, there would be something about like delin and how she has changed and how people now have to accept her.
You know, like, like, uh, uh, bill line linear would have like, there'd be something where he had to get over something to, to, to be able to be in a league with her mm-hmm or something of that nature. Gar Baldy would've I don't know, come to a spot where he could maybe forgive the guy for what he did before he got whisked away.
Like there would've been something and we had nothing. This was just simply, we left a few dangling threads out there. We need to pull them all back in so that we can start next week's episode. And they, they didn't really seem like move the ball down the court at all. You know, they just went, Hey, people are out there and now we're freaking out.
Like that was really it. And so I give this one, no deltas. I can't
Jeff: disagree with that at.
Brent: I will also remind people that if we do this for star Trek episodes, there are several star Trek episodes that also get zero deltas. Uh that's that's it's not how close to star Trek is. And it's that message that lens.
Exactly. Well, Jeff, one more thing.
Jeff: Yeah, we got another new
Brent: we do. I like this new thing, although this one's gonna be real easy starting now in season two, we are ranking the episodes, just like we did in the season. One wrap up. This is gonna be the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon five.
In this case, Babylon five season two, Jeff, we have two episodes. Points of departure is currently sitting at number one because default, where do you place revelations on our list? Now,
Jeff: sometimes Brent, there is wisdom and default points of departure remains on top with revelations in the number two spot.
Jeff: agree. Well, that's it for revelations next week, we're gonna be watching the geometry of shadows for the first time. Now we've never seen these episodes before we haven't read synopsis. We haven't watched trailers. We haven't looked at pictures. So Brent, based on the title alone, what do you think the geometry of shadows is gonna be about?
Brent: you for saying that name again, because my a D D kicked in just a second ago and I completely blanked on what the name of this episode is. Geometry of shadows, geometry. I doubt it's gonna have anything to do with math. Um, geometry is shapes. Uh, this is the coming of shadows, right? Or coming of the shadows, whatever it is.
Um, the geometry of shadows. I mean, I think this one has to be more about the guys out on the rim. If that's, if that's what we're saying, the shadows are. Right. Cause you, you said that like you think it's that people group out there mm-hmm so it's it's that, or again, we're gonna sense the various bad guys.
Cause I, I still think that shadows might be a metaphor for all of the bad guys that, that are starting to happen. I don't know. I don't know. We'll find out, but it could be it's either. It it's about the bad guys. Let's just say that. I'm gonna say this is a, a bad guy episode and oh, maybe it's the, the, how the bad guys are interacting with each other.
Like it's their political oh.
Jeff: Infrastructure. Like how the access Alliance comes together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Oh, okay. That's what I'm gonna go with. I think it's gonna be a flashback to Mrs. Martin's ninth grade geometry class, where Jeff freaks out about proofs and theorems and doesn't know what to do.
which, by the way I told her back then I'm never gonna use this in real life. I've never used any of that in real life, but no, I, I, I want to like have some other really great profound thought on what this is gonna be, but it can't be about anything else. This is gonna be a dive into whatever the shadows are and kind of who in just a little, a little more about our, our big, bad for this season.
We're gonna find out next week right here. Thank you all so much for joining us. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening to us or watching us. And if you haven't already leave us a review, I love sharing your reviews right here on the podcast. You do that and you're gonna hear it right here.
So until next time, Hey Jeff. Hey, peace and long life.