The Hour of the Wolf

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time. My name is Jeff Akin and I am watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I'm Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five For the first time, Jeff and I, we are two veteran active Star Trek podcasters. Watching Babylon five four the first time. And in this show we are searching for what we call Star Trek like messages, but we're also watching for how they do it in their very own Babylon five way.

Jeff: And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are likely to pull in some of those references cuz that's kind of what we do. But to help us with that, we've decided that we. The rule of three, and that means that we each get only and up to three references. A piece to Star Trek per episode. That's it.

Three. Those no substitutions. Exchanges a refund. Hey

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: we have a five star, Ruby. Oh yes. This one's from Ryan Ppf W on Apple Podcasts.

Brent: What's up,

Jeff: Ppf w Ryan Ppf W says, highly recommend. A good buddy of mine had never seen Babylon five and agreed to watch it unspoiled, and I'd watch one of his shows. He had stops and starts.

Life got in the way, but he said he'd get back to it. He passed away unexpectedly a year ago,

Brent: no.

Jeff: and this podcast gives me the cathartic opportunity to go on that journey. Thank you.

Brent: Wow. Uh, Ryan was not expecting that. Um, condolences and yay for moving forward and coming on that, and I'm, I'm glad that we can be there for you in that capacity and, and help you go forward. Um, jet. Whoa. Dude, you gotta warn me before stuff like that,

Jeff: Yeah, it's heavy. And I think I just, it really opens my eyes to, I mean, we've talked about being podcasters quite a bit and the work that goes into being a podcaster. What we don't talk about enough is the impact that it has. We've had a number of reviews or people in comments or tweets or other things talk about how sometimes, like they've gotten to know us and they feel like, you know, hanging out with friends and watching Babylon five.

And I dunno about you, Brent, I think I do know about you, but that feels awesome.

Brent: it does. Yeah. It, it really does. And it, and it is cool because like we see your names down in the comments, um, we see your emails, we see you folks on the Discord. If you're over there as part of our Patreon page, uh, which you can do that@patreon.com. Five first. Wow. I'm not trying to use this as a bug for this moment right now.

This is a heartfelt moment. Um, we, we do feel like we, uh, are are getting to know several of our listeners, but there's even more listeners out there that, um, it, it's more of a one-sided relationship and I really want it to not feel like that. Like, you know what I mean? And I'm, I'm happy to be a part of that.

That's so cool. Like, I hope we get to meet folks someday,

Jeff: totally. And it's moments like these that just remind me of that. Where what a what a what a horrible loss to have suffered. And I mean, we're, we're, I mean, just to be a part of the journey and the healing for that is, it's, it's an honor. It is an absolute honor. Well, Brent,

Brent: Jeff,

Jeff: We have another five star review.

Oh yes. This one's on Podcast Chaser.

Brent: Pod chaser. Shout out to you guys.

Jeff: Yeah. Timothy H says, two guys who love Star Trek and also have Star Trek podcasts are watching Babylon five for the first time, giving it a critical eye and seeking out those beautiful Star Trek like messages. These guys are genuinely funny, honest, and introspective.

They bring completely different mindset and perspectives to certain themes, story beats and characters that longtime fans of Babylon five will both enjoy and get angered by, but they're honest and direct about their feeling. They don't pander to others' opinions, but welcome all sides and are active and responsive to the fan community.

There were many times where I've disagreed with their opinions, but I've also thoroughly enjoyed having my own opinions challenged and my feelings for the series grow through those challenges. For anyone interested in a great companion piece to the series or just another amazing podcast to listen to, I fully recommend you watch their YouTube channel or enjoy it on your podcast app of choice.

Babylon five for the first time gets five star theories from me,

Brent: I dig it. That's awesome. Um, what I love about this review, Jeff, is it captures everything that you and I talk about off microphone of what we want this show to be. You know what I mean? Like yes. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. Are they the same? No. Are we, do we generally tend to be a think in line?

Yeah. But there are times where like you and I are in very different places on an episode, and that's okay. And that can be okay when other people are in different places too. As long as you don't make it personal. We're all gravy here and I love having that conversation. And what I love is these kinds of reports of like, it makes my own fandom grow.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, like that's just so cool to me and we get to join it. And Jeff, I'll say it again, we've said it before, the Babylon five fan community is hands down, the best fan community I've ever been a part

Jeff: Yep. Absolutely. We've, a couple times we've had to step in. We've had to, we've blocked some people. We've had to kind of build some boundaries around a few things. And, and even around us, you know, in, in our own interactions. You know, we've had to set some boundaries there. But I mean, that's just people, right?

And, and other fandoms. That's a, it's a very loud, um, minority of people here. It's a, it's not loud, it's just, it's just a minority of people who, who got in and, yeah, vast majority. I mean, this is such a great community. I'm very, I'm honored to call myself a

Brent: Yes, absolutely. Well, Jeff, speaking of being a part of a community and being honored, To be in, in such great company. You know, one of the things we get to do that, one of the things that our company tells us they love is when we make predictions and whether they're right or wrong, they love snickering behind our backs, sometimes right in front of our faces buzzing themselves because of spoilers in the comments. We play a little game when we get to the end of each episode. If you guys have been listening for, I don't know, more than one episode, you know this by now, but if you're brand new, let's explain how it works. We get to the end of the episode and Jeff tells me what the name of the next episode is. I've never even looked at it.

I didn't look ahead. I haven't seen a thumbnail, haven't read some weird description on Netflix or I M D B. It's the first. I am personally hearing about it, and we make a guess of what the next episode is going to be based on that alone. Well, Jeff, this is the spot where we look back at last week and see what you guessed this week was gonna be about and see how close were you Now, last week was the re the season three, uh, uh, wrap up, but we did make a guess for this particular episode.

So what did you say Hour of the Wolf was gonna be and how close were you?

Jeff: So I thought this was really gonna be inspired by the Ingmar Bergman film of the late seventies of the same name. And, uh, not so much, but that was really gonna come down to, I thought that we were gonna have groups going out looking for Sheridan, which we, we got, we got that. Not to the level I thought we were gonna get it at, but we got it.

And then I thought we were gonna see some psychological torment Garibaldi was gonna be going through. Didn't hit that one at all. What about you, Brent? What did you guess?

Brent: Well, I thought that this was going to be, um, , and maybe this is, this is less plot driven and more just overall that this was not gonna be like a wham episode, right? Um, this was gonna be a week later, Sheridan's gone and we're now trying to figure out what the heck do we do back on the station, which is a hundred percent what this episode was. I go figure, uh, we've learned how the show works at this point, you know? Um, I did, however, make two very specific predictions that I got both of them incorrect. The first one was I said Ivanova was gonna get a promotion as the new, you know, commander of the station. That did not happen. She did have a moment where she's like, I guess I gotta pick up and move on, because that's what Captain Sheridan would've wanted, but there was no promotion involved, so I was wrong on that.

The other one was, I said, we wouldn't see Sheridan until like the final shot. And I was also wrong on that, although it was like that final scene. You know, we, we had a little bit before then, but it was really that final scene that kind of kind of dipped. So I, I'll give myself like a 10% credit on that one because I was really specific and I was very wrong, but in heart I was right.

Uh, Jeff, those are what we predicted

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: the folks out there who haven't seen this episode in a while, or maybe they've never seen this episode and they're just hanging out with us anyway, why don't you tell the folks what this show actually was about?

Jeff: Well, Brent, the American Dream is alive and well on Sonari Prime. You work hard, you put in the hours and you get rewarded. Just like advisor Londo Malari, within moments of arriving, he's carted right in front of Emperor Carta. He generally ensures that Londo knows his place and then sends him away wanting to ease into his new accommodations.

He's almost as shocked as I was to see Mr. Morden sitting in the dark. Morton has seen, uh, pretty better days in his life. He's sporting a metreon cascade style suntan with skin flakes falling off and everything. He lets Lando know that he and Cartia have a deal in the shadows, will be hiding out on the beautiful island of Salini here on Sonari Prime.

This leads to that scene in Lon Do's vision. You know the one we've seen a couple times now with the shadows flying overhead? Yeah. That happens for real in this one, even with the levels that we've seen Londo descend to, he can't stomach this. He gets right into Carta car's face demanding he reneg on the deal. Caria though leans into his apparent insanity. He talks to severed. Brent that he keeps on a desk like wow. Well, he leans in and he says that the shadows promise to make him a God, and he is willing to sacrifice every last sonari to get that to happen.

Terrified Londo calls veer to Sonari Prime in declares that Emperor Carta must die. Well, things aren't going very well on Babylon. Five either Ava's in a serious funk holding onto hope that Sheridan might still be alive. Kars Beha Kars beside himself that no one seems to be worried about where Garabaldi is and Dalen has been fasting and praying that Sheridan will be found. The league of not aligned worlds are taking their ships back to their home worlds because George W.

Bush landed on an aircraft carrier and said Mission accomplished. And the gravy on those potatoes. Well, Behe before heading off Tolando Veer shares what happened on Zaha Doom leading everyone to believe that there's no way Sheridan is still alive. Dalen rips into New Kosh who basically says that none of this is their problem.

This Kosh does the energy thing with Lida. The old Kosh did, but Lida doesn't like it. She says there's a darkness to it. So New Kosh tells her to take a hike, and she does right to Ivanova. She thinks her and Sheridan's link with Old Kosh might help her to detect him if they get close enough to Zaha Doom, Ivanova and Dalen round up the crew.

They take a white star out to Zaha Doom. We know lead is scanning because her eyes go all black, but she gets nothing. Well, not really nothing. You see the shadows pick her up and. See the shadows pick her up. And it triggers Yvanova's experience from way back when she was in the Great machine and Sheridan was almost in the Ministry of Peace.

Matt, the brilliance of Lanier saves the day and this white star gets back to the station safely. Delan and Ivanova, except that Sheridan is gone and they prepare for life without him. But we see something that they don't get to deep inside of Zaha Doom, at least we think deep inside of Zaha Doom, we see Sheridan.

There's a cave system down at the bottom of that hole and, and somehow he not only survived that fall, but also found some clothes, a cloak, some blankets. His command stat bar falls to the ground and he sits at a campfire. So peaceful, tell some weird looking dude, wearing totally inappropriate camping gear.

Comes out, swings by and asks to share his fire. He speaks about as cryptically, as Kosh, as he channels his inner Sebastian. Asking Sheridan, who are you? They stare quizzically into each other's eyes as we fade to credits. Brent, I'm not sure what time it is right now, but what are your feelings on the hour of the wolf?

Brent: You know, Jeff, this episode is exactly what I thought it was gonna be. It's exactly what I needed it to be. It's exactly what I wanted it to be for a season, uh, opener. A a season kickoff, uh, for where things are going. Um, I've got mad feelings and mad thoughts about cost 2.0 Kosh the electric boogaloo. Um, I need to know what, what the hell is dark.

Something is off. Something is not right about this. Kosh. And it's not like, it's not sitting well with me at all. You know, because you see Kosh one neurotic, right? That was his name. Kosh.

Jeff: Neuro Neuronic,

neuronic,

Brent: Um, while, while being very vague and cryptic and would just lay his stuff out sometimes, he also very much seemed to be, would it be too much to say the epitome of good.

Jeff: eh, maybe not the epitome of good, but always, always seemed to have the best of intentions.

Brent: Yes. Even if he lorded it over folks, you know? But even like when he would get into people's minds and, and he would do the, the thing like with Kar and he would do it with, with, um, Sheridan and, and various people like, like, you're like, okay, he, this is a good dude. You don't get the feeling that this is a good dude.

You know what I mean? And that means you got a wolf in the midst. Of what's going on, right? Um, I needed Ivanova. I need them to go through that. Like, is he alive? Is he alive? Is there any chance that we can get him back alive And to actually deal with their emotions on that and move on? Obviously he had to be alive cuz the show's not over and he's the one who will be or whatever.

Right? Um, I really want to know who this dude is down in the cave. You know? Uh, I really, really gotta know who he is. Um, I need, I need to know how Morden, I've got all these great questions. How did Morden survive? You know, uh, looking like a, you know, what he looked like to me? He looked like Dylan coming out of the chrysalis.

Like, almost like it was the same makeup. They just repurposed it here is what it, what it kind of looked like to me. Um, and then we met the emperor. We've talked a lot about the emperor. But we met this emperor and now Rondo's gotta go kill him. And Jeff, I'll close my opening thoughts with this. I think we now know how Londo becomes the emperor.

How about you? What'd you think of this episode?

Jeff: I loved this episode. To your point, it was exactly what it needed to be. I,

Brent: It's, it's, it, it's set in motion. The tracks that have to run through the course of the season, you know?

Jeff: It picked up all the stuff from season three, kept it moving. We, we have a really good idea of where we're moving. I, I loved the strife in the league of not aligned worlds. I, I loved the fact that we were told one episode ago that the shadow. They're all about conflict, right? We're gonna grow through iron sharpens iron, and we're gonna grow this way.

Those pesky volans, the, the, the lords of order, they want to see you become unified.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: And what we're seeing is the exact opposite of that happening. And not only are we seeing the exact opposite of that happen, but we're seeing new Kosh not even care. Like I am more interested in this Kosh and the Volans than I've ever been before because like, yeah, I, so many brand new questions.

The conflict that that moment between him and Dalen was like, oh my gosh, this is huge. I love Emperor Carta. Like, he's horrible. He's everything I thought he was would be. And the actor who like it's he is, he is pitch. Perfect in every way. I was so pleased with everything that happened on Centi Prime.

Like it was just the, the best setup and, and it's just lawn's whole arc and how it all, it's all coming to a head for him in just a perfect, perfect way. But I gotta sum up my opening thoughts with what might be my favorite scene, my favorite moment now in all of Babylon. Five. And that's Zach walking in on Ja Car and Garib all these quarters in the dark, wearing his Indiana Jones hat

Brent: Right,

Jeff: like

Brent: right now, Jeff. Jeff, be careful because I, people are in the comments right now. It wasn't Indiana Jones. It was noir and detective Noir guys. I get it. It looked like freaking Indiana Jones. Come on, gimme a

Jeff: either way. It was cool. It was cool and led to one of, yeah, he looked awesome and awkward and cool and sad and all of the things. Um, yeah, this, I, I, um, I gotta say that this so far, I think is my favorite season opener. This was just really, really well done.

Brent: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I, like I said, it gave us the tracks to run in for this show, and it picked up everything where it needed to pick up from last season. And here we go. C can we talk about Kosh for a few minutes? Um, I, I wanna start with him because he is, he's almost the most burning questions I have.

Um, cuz something fills up. Okay. Is this new Kosh the same Kosh that we saw on Minbar when we were there with Sinclair?

Jeff: I don't know that back in, um, the world without

Brent: the, the, the encounter suit looks the same. I don't know if it's the same one or not, but that encounter suit looks the same to me.

Jeff: I, I think they probably have two styles, right? It's like you pick one or the other and I don't know. But, but I, I had that same question cuz Dalen was talking to him. Like they go way back, like they're old buddies. They've got a long standing

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. And he, and he gave her no time whatsoever. Like they've had a long standing relationship, you know. Um, but so he comes in, they're, they're looking around saying, Hey, he didn't come to the meetings anymore. Um, which I thought was really weird because the first caution ever really came to the meetings.

Jeff: Yeah. And if he did, he just stood there. Like

he never said

Brent: Well, people would say, well, you were student in the background. Yeah. I didn't notice him

Jeff: Yeah. Didn't, didn't do anything noteworthy. This dude doesn't even bother to show up though at all.

Brent: you know, but I still, I say the first caution never bothered to show up. No, never, rarely bothered to show up. Um, but he comes in and you remember when he first came in and met Leeta after Kosh died.

He's like, you are responsible and you failed and you are this. But he's still hanging on to her and he's doing that like energy sucky thing, which we saw Kosh one doing this with her, and I didn't know what it was then. I just assumed it was this sort of like drug communion. He's doing something to her kero cell, whitening her,

Jeff: Right.

Brent: what I mean?

Jeff: Well, at one point we even thought that he might have been breeding like this

is some sort of a

Brent: Yeah, you're right. But in this one, she's like, okay, you're not in me anymore. Like it was like he was taking himself out. Is that a part of how, like they go into a body and inhabit a person and then that person goes and does stuff

Jeff: right

Brent: then they, and then she comes back and, and gets sucked back out?

Is that what's going on? And that was just her putting him back into his encounter suit.

Jeff: it would almost make sense just because she looks like afterwards she just looks drained. Right. Her eyes are all, you know, blackened underneath. And we saw that with old Kosh

Brent: Frankly, you know, what she looked like to me, she looked like a prostitute that was not enjoying her job, like somebody who was doing this because they Absolutely. Um, um, did you ever

Jeff: Elizabeth Shu and leaving Las Vegas. Is that,

Brent: I've never seen that movie, but have you ever seen No, I haven't. Have you ever seen Le Mis though?

Jeff: Yes. Oh

Brent: the, the, the mother of the, of the little girl when she has to turn to prostitution and she's not doing well with it.

That's what she kind of looked like to me. And I'm not judging anybody's line at. You know, if you're lady marlot it out there and you're enjoying it, hey, more power to you. But, you know, this particular one just did not look good.

Jeff: I had a lot of questions about Kosh, but the questions came through Lida, right? Because like from from go, they come out into the garden and like Lee just has this look on her face the whole time of just like, I don't like this. And then as they're leaving, I'm sorry, Dalen, I'm so sorry. And just has this look the whole time, like, like she's somehow held captive by this.

Gosh, even when Kasha like when she's like, this doesn't feel right. It feels dark. And he's like, you're free now. For a

Brent: Yeah. Oh, he's not done with her. He didn't, you know, he's not done. He's got more to do with her, but he is

Jeff: literally like, here's your union mandated break Go. And then you come back and don't you mess around? Well, you're on your break.

Brent: Yeah. So here's my question. What, what is the dark? Is this Kosh in line with the shadow?

Jeff: Oof. Oof.

Brent: Is that, is that where this is going? Is the volans are now in line with shadows?

Jeff: So I don't think so my thought on it was just like, um, just like us, right? We might have two groups that want the same thing. Let me go mass effect on this. Here we go. So you're Commander Shepherd through mass effect, and you can choose to do the Paragon play through, which is like, good guy. Or you can choose to do the renegade play through, which isn't bad guy, it's just hardcore good guy.

So

Brent: is one like easy level and the other's the hard level is that

Jeff: No, the para paragon is the guy who's like, Hey, I'm gonna be nice and I'm gonna answer your questions and I'm gonna take care of people. The Renegade one is like, I got a job to do. You're in my way. I'm gonna shoot you in the face. Or if you're reporter Jira, all johanni, I'm gonna punch you in the face in front of everybody.

Like Renegade Shep is pretty fun to play, but you're still a good guy regardless. Just one. You're a real good guy. The other one, you're like a jerk. Good

Brent: One, you're the hero. The other, you're the anti-hero.

Jeff: Yeah, that's exactly it. And I wonder if that's what this is. Old Kosh was the Paragon and this one's the Renegade. And look, I mean, just some of the quotes I caught here of just like, um, uh, Dalen just says, and she says a hardcore, you know, if you leave Sheridan here and you do nothing, you will lose all respect from me.

And he just looks at her and he is like, respect is irrelevant. I'm out. Like, whatever, you know? Whoa, whoa. Where I think Kosh Kosh 1.0 would've been more of like, you know, uh, respect is a three edged sword. You know, or some, something had some sort of wisdom, but he's just like, no, this is irrelevant outta my way.

We're done this, we're moving on.

Brent: Yeah. So a lots of lot to deal with with this, uh, with this Kosh.

Jeff: Well, and they said a thing when it came out cuz Dylan had been calling him and he hadn't been returning her calls, which honestly sounded funny from it. You haven't been returning my calls, . I'm like, it's, but Leeta came and said, Hey, sorry we didn't return your calls. Uh, Kosh was on really late with the Lon Home world last night.

There's something there like that was, that was a specific line and a specific thing where there's something going on with the v. And this is like that little seed that's gonna get, that's the track that started to get laid for what we're gonna go through this season.

Brent: Um, all right, so there's that, uh, we'll talk about Lida and Nirvana and their little escapade. I, I think in a moment. Um, you want to jump over to Londo and Emperor Esia?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Um, so. What'd you think of cartes? This is the first time we've met him. Young dude. I did not expect him to be young. Uh, a little crazy likes the short crest.

Not

Jeff: Yeah. I loved him. I loved everything about him. He is horrible and he's gross and he's egotistical, and he's pompous and arrogant and played to perfection. When he's going through and explaining to Londo that he's gonna be a. and he's got that close up. The camera's right on him. There is, there is absolute delusions of grandeur in his eyes.

Like I bought it, hook, lion, and Sinker. This guy is the real deal. And I, and it's perfect. I love Morton's line. Yeah. If there's a psychopath sitting on the throne, you and Refa put him there. He's your problem. Oh. And he is a psychopath and he's perfect. And I can't wait. I cannot wait for Londo to kill him.

Brent: my note was this, uh, at the beginning when he was doing like the little short crust and everything and, uh, I was like, the emperor is short. Crusting it, dot dot, he doesn't have long to live. I was like, he's going to get killed. This guy is gonna get shanked. Uh, and later I said, he's going full on Nero, emperor Nero.

Like, he, he is so full of himself, delusions of grandeur. He's gonna wreak some havoc and people are gonna come in here and tu bte this dude.

Jeff: Totally.

Brent: Um, and I'm here for it. I'm here for every bit of it. Cuz you know what, we just watched what Lando did to Refa. What do you think he's gonna do to the emperor?

Jeff: exactly. It's gonna be hardcore. The minister that came and met Londo, you know, and kind of started setting him

Brent: the guy, the guy that had the joke the last time we saw him,

Jeff: Yes. Yeah,

Brent: the really bad joke about Narn. I love that they brought him back. I'm just, I

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: that they brought him back.

Jeff: He really annoyed me at first. Like he was just, you know, Ew, what the code? We should do these things. And, but there's the moment where Orlando comes out and he's like, dude is insane, and Minister got real for a minute.

He's like, his voice came down, right? You got a little bass in there. And he is just like, dude, shut your mouth. You don't say it, you just play along. And in that moment, like in this moment, he became one of the most fully fleshed out characters I've seen in television for a long time. Like I get this guy, he's a bureaucrat, a functionary who does what he has to do to stay alive and is probably broken and miserable

Brent: Yeah. So do you know the moment when I kind of fell in love with him was, and I, oh, I should have gone back and written down these words. When Lando was first meeting with him, and he is like, yeah, yeah. I, I've met him three times before, twice when he was an infant and he was drooling and once when he was a teenager and he was pooping out of his pants or something like that.

And he says something to the effect of like, I, I'm sure I will be just as impressed with him now as I was back then. And, and the guy's like, okay, whatever. And then he goes in and, and Londo says something when he meets the emperor, he is like, oh, an emperor. It is always impressive to meet you. Or something like that.

Like he londo full on bags on the emperor right in front of his face. The

Jeff: So many times. He does it so many times too.

Brent: doesn't get it, but the camera shoots over to the, to the dude, the bureaucrat dude. And he just smiles and he is like, I get it. I get, that's the moment for me that I was like, I like this guy.

He, because he

Jeff: Yeah. Cause he said,

uh,

Brent: he, he knows, he, he, he, he just doesn't have his head stuck up to the emperor's rear end. Like he knows what's going on. I like

Jeff: he's playing the game. He's just trying to keep his head attached, is what he's

Brent: Can I just tell you what his n what my name for him is in my notes. He, because of the, the narn joke, that was really bad. He's, uh, Mr. Jokey Joker.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: got him as Mr. So last season we had chicky. This season I think we're gonna have Mr. Jokey joker,

Jeff: So Minister Jokey Joker.

Brent: jokey, joker.

Jeff: Yes. . Londo had another line in there when, uh, like he got, he was talking about the hairstyle, right. And Londo was just like, yeah, it's not the normal thing. And he is like, well, it's the right thing and it's that because the emperor is always right. And Londo was like, yes, that is our tradit, that is our tradition.

God. It was gr he was, I Londo to me was, we saw so many layers of him in this one. And I think part of it was like, he, he truly doesn't care. Like he talked about that back when, um, Aira was killed by, by Morden. You know, he came to find, but he thought Refa and he is like, I don't care anymore. I want to watch 'em all burn.

And I think we saw that with the, he, not only was he insulting the emperor, but when he saw all the shadow shenanigans going on, he went and tried to grab him and be like, dude, stop it. Like he was, he was fine getting stabbed. To shut this guy down.

Brent: Right, right. Um, okay, let's, let's, so cart's thing with the shadows is he's talked to them and he says the shadows planted their ships like seeds across the galaxy, and I've given them an island here where nobody lives on, and they're gonna plant their seeds on sonari.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: So does this mean that the shadows are going back underground for a while?

Jeff: So I think what they're doing, so Morden said in their, in that conversation that they centralized on Zaha Doom, and then they came and hit Zaha Doom, and that's what cost them. It's why they went. And so a thousand years ago with what they had left, they went and seated through the galaxy so they could come back.

Now that Zaha Duma has been. . They're gonna do that sooner. I don't think they're going into hiding. I think they're going in and to to be spread out, but not necessarily seated. Right. They're going to like

Brent: they're not seeded, like planting themselves into the ground to hide out for another thousand years. They're just establishing a base

Jeff: Correct. That's

Brent: that's what I wanted them to do. But he starts talking about planting as a seed, and I'm like, the shadow not over yet.

Jeff: No, no. And I, and I, and I think, I think that was very much about just like, this is what they did in the past after they were defeated. Now they're gonna do it now and they're gonna operate that way.

Brent: So while he's there, he meets Morden Londo, he meets Morden. Um, I already said he looks like Dalen coming out of the cocoon. Um, interesting, interesting whole conversation. Fine. But there was one spot where, you know, he's, he's, he's flaking. He's picking up the stuff off his skin and he is driving. There's a spot where he leaves and Lando is sitting there and he's looking down at these ashes of Morden that are on the ground, and they're just sort of blowing away.

Now, Jeff, I don't know anything that happens beyond this point, like done.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: But I have to believe that that shot, I want to believe that that shot is somehow a little foreshadowing of Morden's. I mean, this, this dude looks like he just got dusted by Thanos, like, and he's just blowing away. Like, I've, I really want to believe that that's foreshadowing of how Morton's gonna meet his end.

Jeff: that'd be beautiful. Like really? That'd be beautiful filmmaking.

Brent: And it's probably gonna be at the end of season five before we see it, so,

Jeff: Right. This is gonna be a long time. I think. Yeah. We, we have, because cuz this is a trans, I think this is a transformation. They said that without saying it, you know, flesh is transitory. Flesh can be changed. Flesh can be repaired and flesh does what it's told.

But I think that I really got the impression that he's going through a transformation. Um, as he said, a line that he even kind of snickered at. He's like, yeah, right now I'm just a shadow of my former self. And so I was like, that was a joke, kind of. But I think, I think it was a hint that it's a transformation of him in a way.

But I tell you what, Morden, we, we talked, we've talked quite a bit about just the charms

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: dear Mr. Morton, his

Brent: Well, it's the hair and the teeth, the chin.

Jeff: Yeah. He loses all of that under makeup. He looked so awkward and so uncomfortable and like everything that made him this val, invaluable weapon to the shadows, wk gone.

Brent: I read, I read somewhere, just on a side note, I read somewhere not too long ago. Maybe it was a while ago. I don't remember where. Uh, it was probably a comment somewhere. Um, but they said the reason that j m s cast, uh, ed Wasser

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: as Morden is because he had a really punchable face. I loved that. . I think I've seen that like two or three times.

I've, I, several people have said that over, over time, which I, I thought was, uh, I, I thought was something, um,

Jeff: see that. But there's one other thing Mor said before we, before we got off Morden that I thought was fascinating. Uh, Londo says, what about Sheridan? And Mor says, which one? You've seen one? Sheridan. You've seen them all.

Brent: Ooh,

Jeff: What is that? It was just kind of a little thing. He's like, which one? And it was kind of in his mad ramblings a little bit, but.

Brent: I, I don't think that that means, this is the way I interpreted it and, and maybe why that line didn't stick out to me the way the, the way it did to you. But not that there's multiple Sheridans out there running around. It's just Sher Sheridan's a hero. He's, he's a guy who's gonna put himself on the line.

And I've seen multiple of these guys. Which one are you talking about?

Jeff: Okay. Okay.

Brent: he, he was kind of dismissing him as a person is, ah, everyone's like that. Whatever. That's the way I read it. What are you, what are you thinking?

Jeff: Well, I think there's a whole thing going on, you know, of just like, so I have, I have this theory that we'll get to when we talk about Sheridan that might land to this, but I don't think he's on Zaha Doom and I, I don't even necessarily think he's in our time or space

Brent: Really?

Jeff: And so I think that could lead

Brent: you, wait, wait, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Back up. Back up, back up. Do you think he's in another timer space? Do you think he's in like a limbo, like a land between What are, what are you thinking?

Jeff: That's kind of what I think is a land between, cause I don't know that there's other dimensions necessarily, but there is what they call beyond the rim. Right. You know, the, where the other first ones have gone, have gone beyond the rim. It's where the techno majors were trying to go.

Brent: is that due to first one?

Jeff: Me,

Brent: The what? What's, did we get his name? I don't know that we got his name.

Jeff: we got who are you and then who are

you?

Brent: How did I get here? You were born. Why am I here? Ah, that's a more interesting question. And I'm like, oh, cool. Uh, is

Jeff: So maybe,

maybe

Brent: he is? Is he, are we beyond the rim? And that's a first one.

Jeff: but that would make a, that that would line up with what I'm thinking. I think he is where the other first ones and ancient ones went. Like there's, cuz Kosh new Kosh says Sheridan opened an unexpected door and he's now irrelevant.

Because he did, because he got, he found the, the portal in the clac pit that took him to this other place. And now it's like, oh, well now, now we know where the door is. We know how to get there. We can go and we can bring all our ancient one and first one

Brent: So why would there be a portal to Beyond the Rim where all the first ones are right smack in the middle of where the shadows live.

Jeff: so what I think is like Zaha doom is clearly a focal point of some sort of something. And so

Brent: It's a nexus point, is that what you're saying?

Jeff: essentially, yeah. And so that's one of the reasons the shadows millions of years ago made that their home is cuz they wanted to find a way into that portal and that, so they've been spending all this.

Searching, learning, digging, trying to find things. They found where it was, and that's, that's why there's a hole in the middle of their city is they built an entire infrastructure and city around the business, essentially needed to go in and dig this hole and try and get to the portal. It just happens.

That Sheridan's the one who's like, I'm going

Brent: I'm jumping in. But so I mean that makes a little bit of sense though. When you go back to the episode, Zaha Doom, when Sheridan's standing on the edge and he hears OB one Kenobi slash Kosh be like, use the force John, jump . You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Cuz if Kosh is down there, I mean per, presumably Kosh when he died, also ascended. Maybe he went on with the rest. Hopefully he didn't just annihilate. I maybe, I mean, I, I don't know. He left a bit of a in Sheridan, so

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Um, oh, Jeff,

Jeff: That was my whole, like, it hit me on my second view where I was just like, because like, okay, I'll just dive in. He's walking around with a blanket and a cloak like, what, what, what is that?

Brent: I wanna know where he got the blanket and cloak. Like was he just walking around and like, oh look, there's a blanket right here. There's a cloak. Got it. How did he start the fire?

Jeff: it was totally a role playing game where he just saw a skeleton and he alluded the skeleton and he got two pieces of copper and he got , really weak cloth

Brent: He had some flints.

Jeff: yeah, it's, but as he is walking through, there are torches, like there's fire and torches. Like this is, this is a clearly occupied place that like, it's rocky, but it's also smooth and pretty clean for the most part. Yeah. Like he's literally like in the old part of a castle somewhere and working. And he is gonna come, oh, there's a whole city here dude.

Creepy dude is gonna be like, Why? Let me share your fire. Let's be cool. Also, you want to go inside? I actually have this really great place, . We have television, cable,

Brent: you know what he reminds me of? Like, everything about this dude shouts Good guy to me.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Oh yeah,

Brent: Can I oh, that's the right question. Have you ever played Legend of Zelda? Breath of the wild? No. You

Jeff: that's one of the game I have not played. Not yet.

Brent: The very beginning of the game during the tutorial level, right? You meet an old man who is the guy who.

Taking you around, kind of, okay, here's how you do it. Here's how you use this button. I want you to go do this and go over there, do that and meet me here and come over here and I'm gonna give you this little jacket to help you get through the cold weather. And, uh, and oh yeah, by the way, this is who I really am and I'm not gonna spoil that for you.

And oh, here's all this. And then he sends you off on your mission and then you go play the game. Like tutorial level. Done. You're

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Um, that's who this guy feels like to me.

Jeff: That's dude. Yeah, I

Brent: He fe he feels like, uh, I'm gonna get you right and I'm gonna send you off on your on I'm gonna send, he'll send him back to Babylon five eventually.

So Sheridan might be with this guy for four or five episodes, six episodes before getting back to Babylon. Five.

Jeff: and frankly, this is, so in, um, in Lord of the, in Fellowship of the Ring, was it, was it Fellowship that he went that, that, that Gandolph went down? I know people get really

Brent: Fellowship was where he went down the Kaza dooms, ah

Jeff: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brent: know what? Okay. When we did in the shadow of Zaha Doom, which was the very first time we ever heard that phrase, and, and the first time we ever heard that name,

Jeff: Ever.

Brent: people in our comments lost their minds over, how could you not pick up?

Then it was, it the, the bridge of Kaza Doom. And I'm like, I think we did. It just might not have been on Mike or whatever. And I'm just like,

Jeff: Well, and frankly, I mean, I'm not, I'm not gonna bash Tolkin stuff. It's great. People love it. I read it when I was in the ninth grade. I was working at the movie theater when the films came out, so I, I didn't really watch 'em. And, uh, I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's great, but that was literally 30 some odd years ago

Brent: I have a, I have a great Lord of the Rings reference in this, in, in our discussion coming up here soon, so,

Jeff: Oh, cool. Yeah. But I feel like this dude, like what we're, what we're seeing with Sheridan right now is what we didn't get to see with Gandolph when he went down and then, you know, so he fell his dead and stuff happened, and then he came back as Gandolph the White, we're gonna get to see what Sheridan Gandolph goes through and then comes, comes back as the new Sheridan, which might be where Morden was going with, well, it's Sheridan, right?

The, the one before the Babylon five. The one before the hole, the one after the hole. Like, eh, I've seen 'em all. Whatever, whatever.

Brent: Interesting. Uh, interesting. I It is certainly, again, it's the track to run in for the season, what's going on with Sheridan and, and this dude, um, I mean, this is about the time for the mentor to come along, right. In the, in the whole deal. Like, Sheridan's gotta learn some stuff before he can become the one, you know.

Jeff: The, the stuff that Kosh said he regretted not showing him earlier. Right. When and when he was being killed. And he showed up as dad and he is like, I should have showed you this sooner. I should have. Well now, now we've got dude down there who's gonna be like, you know, we've got, uh, I've got this place here.

We're gonna teach you some stuff. I got the guy from the Muta over here and we're gonna teach you how to fight with honor.

Brent: There you go.

Jeff: Cuz the muta has actually been the answer

Brent: The whole time it's been the thing. Yeah. That and the Great Egg.

Jeff: Yep.

That's, that's where he is.

Brent: he's in the Great Egg.

Jeff: Yeah, that's

Brent: It's the yoke. He's in the yoke.

Jeff: I'm serious. I will lose, I will lose my mind if in this next episode they're like, oh, come here to the Great Egg.

Brent: Um, Jeff, I need us to circle back to Londo

Jeff: Yes. Sorry,

Brent: emperor. Like we got way sidetracked. This was the conversation. I was gonna wait till the end, but we just, we

Jeff: I know.

Brent: Um, okay. Bottom line, uh, Londo calls veer and says, veer, I need you to come. You're literally the only guy I trust, by the way.

Steven first between season three and season four has lost some weight.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: I mean, you, you said it to me earlier, like, he looked like he just looked awful. And I'm like, no, no, no. The man lost weight. And then, and I thought at first it was just, oh, he just woke up. But then when he showed up and he was talking to Lana, I'm like, no, no, no, no.

This dude has lost some weight and good on

Jeff: And I think quick, probably quickly, you know, and so it's like a little bit of that, like he hasn't, he hasn't filled into his.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: New body, yet it was a little distracting, um, with

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but good on him. Aside from that, good on him, you know? Uh, but veer, yeah, Vera is definitely lost weight. But Lando Lando says it as clear as day, we're going to kill the emperor. We're going to kill bat hoop crazy. Talking to some heads reminding me of, of, uh, a Lord helmet from space balls.

No, you did not just see me playing with my dolls. Like, um,

Jeff: that whole sequence though went, so he got veer to come out and, and he told him, he's like, he's like, you know, I, I, I don't understand this veer like, you don't get to this level without some bad stuff going on yet. You walk through the most powerful halls in the universe, completely oblivious to everything that's going on.

Like, how do you do that? But then he explains, you get to this level of power and there are two types of people around you. The people that want to use you, and the people that you want to use. R o Friends, that's all there is. Then he goes on to tell Veer

Brent: because I'm sorry. Stop. Stop that. Because in that moment you're like, so he literally just told Veer, you are here because I want to use you.

Jeff: Ah-huh.

Brent: That's what you're thinking in that moment.

Jeff: And we've watched him for three seasons. Use veer, Use

Brent: but we've also watched him become loyal to veer. We've watched him care for veer and we've watched him refuse to leave if they were gonna replace veer,

Jeff: Ah-huh . There's a, there's an incredible arc here.

Brent: then he says, what do you so, so say what you're getting ready to say. I'm sorry I cut you off, but I wanted to seed that with, then he says,

Jeff: That you're the closest thing to a friend I could ever have.

Brent: yep.

Jeff: but there's more because then he like says, you know, I need you to be, I need someone who's loyal. I need a friend. I need a Patriot. And veer looks at him with this look on his face and he is like, Londo, if you thought I would come all this way and say anything otherwise, like, do you even know me?

You know, or whatever. Something like that. And I just thought in that moment I'm like, they love each other. Like Veer loves Londo as a father, as he would love a father, a mentor, and someone he's willing to do anything for. Londo has come to love Veer as a son and that they had this, this moment in that back and forth where like that just gut punched me.

Where it was just like they're beyond friends.

Brent: It's, it's the, the what, what do they call it? The, um, the, the storage. Stge love.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: the Eros, which is like the erotic love. There's the phileo, which is the brotherly love. Um, there's the agape, which is the love for everyone. But then there's like the story gate, which is like the love between parent and child,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: know?

Uh, yeah.

Jeff: That's just deep and, and like yeah. Steven first, and, and like in that mo that was, I think that was one of his finest moments was when he's like, if you thought I would say anything, I was like, oh, wow. I felt that I was so well

Brent: and by the way, Lando killing the emperor. Did I say this earlier? At some point I did. This is a hundred percent how Lando becomes the emperor himself. Like, we see it in here and what we now see and we see more, uh, prophecies and things that we have heard about, clips we have seen coming true. And one of the things we saw was the, the shadow ships flying overhead in Lando.

Just looking up, going, eh, eh, almost as if they had shot that scene years ago.

Jeff: Ah. Yeah. Which is why I think they had that little scene where they're like, oh, where's your coat? Oh, we took that away to get clean. Do you have to wear your old purple one? Because that's what you were wearing when we shot that scene way back,

Brent: Good call. I didn't even, I didn't even catch that. That's a good call.

Jeff: I thought that was slick. But I, but I think also, I think one of my big takeaways for Londo in here is he's now really truly realizing the consequences of his choices and actions and how caught he is.

And I think it was that moment when he was really, really,

Brent: Lando has long since realized the consequences of his actions.

Jeff: oh, I

Brent: Lando has frankly spent the majority of season three trying to work his way through that,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: know, and, and not just in a full stop. Let's undo all of this. But he's, he's trying to figure out what to do and when. All through season two, Jeff, we talked about the redemption of Londo Malari.

Uh, this is Lando from his best vantage point without turning into the rebel of Kar. Like he is basically subverting everything. He, like, he's flying the middle finger to Morden, he's flying the middle finger to car. He's gotta plan to assassinate the, the emperor cuz he wants to get his people back. He's got veer to come in.

I loved his line. He's like, why did you need me? Because a conspiracy requires more than one person. You know, like, uh, Lando Lando is in his own redemption path, which we saw culminated in war without end in the future, where he's like to redeem myself, I'm going to let you go. Please take care of my people, make sure they're okay.

And then he kills himself or has

Jeff: yeah. Has,

Yeah.

But I think for this, it's, it's one of those things where you, you, you've created a problem and you're committed to making that problem. Right? And that was season three. But now he's actually seen the results of what he did. Like it's so much more real. Like he's face to face with this guy he put on the throne, he's got morden in room Morden who calls him a friend in that moment.

Like it's all so like, it was academic and now it's very real for him. And I think, I think this is like the launch point for the v a very, the lawn we've been wanting to see for a long time.

Brent: Agreed. Agreed.

Jeff: My last note on Londo and everything, did you catch what Carta said when he was going through his hole? I'm gonna be a God and I don't care if all the Centara have to die.

He had a very specific line that should carry a ton of weight.

Brent: which one are you talking about?

Jeff: Some are always sacrificed for the greater good, which is the same thing that Kar said after Kosh told him to say, J Ja Jako told him to say that. And we've heard that, I think even from the, from Dalen as well. But in this, in this case, Carta went a step further and he defined the greater good for us.

Brent: Well, you know, I'm just gonna go back to my buddy Matt from beating me up a Star Trek podcast. Um, anytime somebody says the phrase for the greater good, they're pretty much the bad guy,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: much.

Jeff: And proof positive right here.

Brent: So Ivanova is trying to take care of the station. She's, she's the league of non-aligned worlds and they're not aligning again. Um, she's trying to figure out whether or not Sheridan's alive or dead. She's staying awake all the time. She's not sleeping well. Leeta comes to her and is like, Hey, I think I can send Sheridan because I could sense Ksh and Ksh was in Sheridan.

And you know, it's like a residual, but I gotta get close and maybe I can, maybe I can, I don't know. And so they jump on the white star, they head out and Lida gets there and her eyes go black.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: I want to talk about the black eyes. And then Delin steps up and Ivanova, latent telepath. And they all three become transfix.

By the shadows that are out there. And then I want to talk about what was getting ready to happen. But let's go to Lida in the big black eyes, because I'm sitting here going like, she's supposed to go feel, she's supposed to be empathic and then she gets solid black eyes. Is she a Beta Z now?

Jeff: All of a sudden, right. Well, she bled from the eye when she tried using her psych, uh, psychic powers or telepathic powers against the shadow ships when Sheridan took 'em out. So that's like, now they just black up, you know, who else, who else's eyes went All beta Oid, um, when they did a whole bunch of drugs and ha all of a sudden had telepathic powers, kar

Brent: right?

Jeff: dusted dust, he had those same black eyes.

Is Lida is,

Brent: she, is she getting her si powers amped up?

Jeff: well that's what I'm saying. Is there a connection between this, uh, energy exchange that happened between the volans, between caution, Lida. And the dust that Cyco has developed likely in league with the shadows.

Brent: Interesting. I have no idea. Put a pin on that. Let's see where the story takes

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: Um, okay, here's my major question. Coming out of this whole thing, you're gonna take your ship, you're gonna fly all the way to Zaha Doom, and you're gonna have one P five telepath on board with you as protection. When you just did a recruiting thing where you brought all these folks in, you got all these menari around, like, like, do you not just load that ch By the way, this is my question until we see him again.

Where's baster?

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: guy said that Your war is now my war captain. Let's go get some stuff done. Why is Bester not on board? Why? Why isn't Buster's people? Where, where are Bester Ranger?

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: You know what I mean? Like, like you load that ship up because you could have ship after ship after and you need it. It's a one-to-one ratio, I think is about what we established.

Right. So you're gonna take a one P five. Really?

Jeff: Yeah. Although in shadow dancing we saw, it was like they weren't as effective on the one-to-one we saw before. I don't know. I, I still have a lot of questions on how this telepath versus shadow thing works and we don't know. And, and this messed stuff up even more for me because like, they come out, she goes all, all beta oid and all, all weird and talking struggly, which I thought was great, is all in character.

It's good. And that brings out the, the eye is looking for us. The eye, what is the eye,

Brent: So here come, I mean the eye is looking. Is this the eye of, so.

Jeff: right?

Brent: another Lord of the Ring's reference. The eye of soran is looking, here's, and then I go back to, um, we see that that big ass head floating in space, right? That was a shadow head cuz it had the lights and it was in the shape. And it was very, remember the tiki head that we saw?

And it was in that kind of motif. There was the hand, the weird hand, but you had the tiki head, you had this. I wonder if the shadows like the little actual creatures that we see, are they physical manifestations of whatever this one thing is? Are the shadows a and now we're getting to the hive of mine thing.

If you kill that thing, do you kill the rest of them?

Jeff: all of them.

That, that too.

Brent: to me. But

Jeff: that even kind of lines up with like the minbar religious belief that we're all manifestations of the universe. So maybe these ancient ones from way back. Became one, right? So all shadows or whatever became this thing that we call the i, all the tiki heads, the party first ones became that head.

They're one piece. And so the universe is slowly becoming one, being through all these things. But as time goes on, you know, splinters come and they have to form back, you know, the cycle continues over and over again. Maybe what we know is shadows aren't actually shadows at all, but they're the minions and the dark agents of the shadow that we now think is called is, is is some eye that is actually harbinger

Brent: or the shadows are the shadow of the eye. Like there's the eye, they're really bad and the shadows are like, oh, if you think we're bad way too, we're just a shadow of him, and we're the like, you know, maybe, maybe it's that. Um, but did you, did you notice this? When the big head was coming through, there was a very weird, but I mean, Jeff, weird, evil, eerie sounding music that was playing.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: notice that?

Jeff: I did. I

Brent: And then are you sitting there going, wait a minute, Kosh was always about the music. Now he had this really rad Gregorian chant going on, but this guy had this very like, devil went down to Georgia playing the bad violin vibe to his music

Jeff: conflict order,

Brent: two, Jeff, I said a long time ago, two sides of the same coin. Now they, they may not be literally the same species, but they're literally two sides of the same coin.

Jeff: Well, I think, I think that's one of the points that we're, we're moving towards is we're different species, but we're all the same stuff.

Brent: That's why the mbar and the Earth people can, uh, switch soul things.

Jeff: Go back and forth. And that's why when Kosh said something about something, he called it a three edged sword because it's not as simple as being two sides of the same coin. Like it's more complex than that through the way the universe expresses itself.

Brent: out what a three edge sword looks like.

Jeff: Yeah. I keep counting more than three when you put a third one on, but Yeah.

But I guess we're not wars,

Brent: Um, okay. Probably favorite part of the whole show though. All of a sudden the ship turns around and goes away and, and, uh, you know, he is like, oh, if I didn't push this button every two minutes, it's gonna get us outta here and all right, well get us the hell outta here. And he goes, initiating, getting the hell out of here.

Maneuver.

Jeff: Yeah. Lanier's, uh, risk aversion and brilliance saves the day. But when the, i, when the, I was doing its thing, two things that stood out was one, a Ava brought up what she brought up way back, um, in that episode where we saw the tiki party, first one when she was in the great machine, and then she's like, it knows our names.

So we have that happening again. And then when Lida Dalen and Ivanova were kind of debriefing the whole thing, they're like, yeah, he was talking to me in the voice of my father, which is the same voice, the two sides of a coin, or three sides of a sword or whatever same voice Kosh would use. He talked to, to Sheridan when he talked to Ja car.

He was always the father figure.

Brent: Interesting

Jeff: Very fascinating.

Brent: man. How does that rewrite, rewrite episodes like t K O dealing with share with, uh, Ivanova and the philosopher de father, or what was the episode where we actually saw him die and she was all like, whatever,

Jeff: to the purple?

Brent: born in the purple? Um,

Jeff: Oh, wow. That's

Brent: oh man. Talk about the rewatch. Rewatch is gonna be banging.

Jeff: I know.

Brent: Speaking of banging, dalin, Steven first lost some weight. Veer lost some weight. Dylan, Dylan, Lynn's got some bangs. Man. These are new bangs, right? Like this is a new hairstyle that we got. I don't

Jeff: into 96. I didn't like it either. I felt, I felt like, so like where the bone crest kind of comes and becomes part of her face, I felt like the bangs exposed that more like I could really see the, the coverage

Brent: I think you're right. You just said it though. It is just 1996. You got it. Which did we have? I thought bangs were in the eighties thing. Like did we really do bangs in 96?

Jeff: We're not too far away from where Garabaldi is gonna come out with, uh, frosted tips.

Like, we're not too far away from that. Maybe we are a

Brent: Wait, okay. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's play it out. Who is the Babylon five boy band? Garabaldi Franklin is gonna be in there.

Jeff: Marcus?

Brent: Oh, absolutely. Marcus is in

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Uh, who, who, who? I don't know that Sheridan's in this thing. Maybe he is. Maybe he ain't. Um,

Jeff: Zach.

Brent: oh yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. We need one more

cuz it's

Brent: Yeah. You gotta have

Jeff: number for a boy

Brent: Who's, who's the next guy I'm staying away from, from aliens right now. Like, cuz I wanna say Lanier, but I don't think that's right.

Jeff: I don't think it's

Brent: no,

Jeff: he's, yeah.

Brent: it's not veer. Oh,

Jeff: Is it that Abbott guy, the Vic? With the funny head.

Brent: no, brother Theo, no. Le listen. Hey, this is a four-person boy band. Is this is, this is, uh, 98 degrees. It's a four-person. It's a four-person.

Jeff: it can work. It can work.

Brent: for a person anyway, um, Ivanova in this moment, her rank bar dropped off her chest.

Jeff: no, they just zoomed into it and then used that as a transition for Sheridan's

Brent: hers fell off the chest. Oh, no, no, no. You're right. It zoomed into it and then it, it

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: was her rank bar broken,

Jeff: Nope. So hers is Golden Silver to show that she's first officer.

Brent: but it wasn't like snapped in half or, or like bent.

Jeff: Nope. It was just her normal step bar. Golden Silver, zoomed in on that. And then came off with then shared, and it was just a

It was a transition scene they

Brent: for Sheridan. Okay. Okay. Um, and Iva gets to a point at the end, uh, this is the last thing I, this is actually my last note. Uh, she's gonna let Sheridan go and get back to business, which is what she needed to do.

Jeff: Yeah, I am curious. Uh, she said that she has some ideas on how to do that and is gonna need some help and thinks she knows where she's gonna look for that help.

Brent: Lida

Jeff: like

Brent: or Marcus? I'm personally pulling O draw. Yeah, I'm pulling from Marcus though cuz I'm on the, I'm on the Mark Vava train.

Jeff: Mark Vava, Ivan Ivans, the Ivans

Brent: VAs. Of VAs

Jeff: Clearly we don't come up with the celebrity names. I almost want it to be Lida, um, just because I want it to turn out to like, she's got a thing for Telepaths, like that's her, like she hates them, but is also wildly attracted to

Brent: I mean it, you know, her and Talia were a thing, so I, I almost don't want, because it almost just feels like a replacement for Talia. And so I want something completely different than Talia. But if Ivanna has a type, then she has a type. So

Jeff: That's that type, isn't that why? Might be what it is. Oh, Brent. I think we've reached that part of the show where we boil this all down and see if this episode has any deep morals, deep messages. Maybe it's holding up a mirror to society or giving us hope that we could be better in the future. I'm gonna do that by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five Delta furries, which shows us both how strong the message of the show is and just how Babylon five it was delivered.

It takes a rare type of wisdom to accept change and redemption in another. Seen only what was and not what is. The talk between Kar and Zach about. Garabaldi was amazing and it really picks up on the Gethsemane themes from last season. It's one thing to change yourself and it's another thing for those changes to be accepted by the people around you.

If Brent, like if we were to judge someone by their past actions, what's the point of ever doing anything differently or really what's the point of doing anything at all? For that matter? A couple years ago, Pope Francis was visiting a prison, which is a thing that popes often do cuz you know what they say Pope and ain't easy.

Well, well he was there. He said that. He said, uh, there, but for the grace of God go, I. Meaning that if we were all fully prosecuted and punished for everything we ever did, we'd all spend a little time behind bars. Let's just take some other ambassador or politician on Babylon. Five. We'll make one up. Uh, ne Grath the fly guy from season one, the Ne Grath, um, ambassador.

We have never seen him on this show

Brent: You know what? You know what?

Jeff: huh?

Brent: was just a puppet of his government.

Jeff: Ah, I always hit the wrong one. I don't think I have the Batum bump anymore. There you go.

Brent: I'll give you a good clean one.

Jeff: yeah. Nice. Well, we never saw this guy cuz he never did anything to make it worth us seeing him, but what we didn't see him do was awful. Right. He's killed people, manipulated people. He's smuggled drugs and weapons.

He even went so far as to refuse to let their home world's winner participate in their version of Eurovision Babbel. , but everybody's cool with this ambassador guy because he was never caught for these things that he did. Contrast that with Kar, who early on, you and me, we were very convinced that this was gonna be the bad guy for the show that happened to be on the station.

And it wasn't necessarily because of the things he did, it was because of the things we saw him do, or in Garibaldis case, what he knew that he had done and sometimes was even able to prove it. But over time we got to see Kar change multiple times. They've straight up reminded us of him. They've reminded us of the journey that he has been on and is gonna continue to be on.

I remember back in by any means necessary, when you and I were like, Ja car's religious. Where'd this come from? What the heck? Yeah. Uh, now he's St. Kar, the Arch Angel , and we buy it a hundred percent. Garabaldi was the one who saw that change. He even acknowledged it. And because he saw that change and acknowledged it as, I'll get to in my prediction here in a little bit.

Ja Car's gonna go to great lengths to find and save Garabaldi and all because as Jaar said, Garabaldi saw him for who he is and not just who he was. So before I rate this one, Brent, are you cool with me putting a challenge out to our community?

Brent: I love it. Do it.

Jeff: I want, this is to you community. I want to challenge you to think of one person, just one that you judge based on who they were and not who they are.

And then the hard part, I want you to do something about that. I want you to be the Gu Baldy. To the Kar in your life and then I'd love to hear about it. I would love to hear about that. This is a powerful message. I mean, this is kind of stuff. It was delivered in a very hilarious Babylon five way that it had us basically calling Daffy Duck a God, which it's great, but this literally was one scene in the whole episode and I did a lot of work to pry the stuff out of this to make it matter on it.

So I am gonna give this one, two Delta furries.

Brent: Mm, I I will simply say good job digging something out of it. Cuz I didn't have anything coming out. Like I, I always, I'm always watching the episode, whether it's my week or not to do to for that. I was like, Nope, this is just, this is the next part of the story plot-wise to move things forward. Um, and so bravo.

Jeff: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, we are on this podcast Babylon five For the first time, we are creating the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of the fourth season of Babylon five. So Brent where do you rank the hour of the wolf?

Brent: This is a hard one, Jeff, but I think this is gonna take the top spot. This is our number one episode of the season

Jeff: I don't know,

Brent: more ways than one.

Jeff: Number one in more ways

Brent: Why does this make me giggle? This is the dumbest thing we do in the whole podcast every at the start of every season, and it makes me giggle every time.

Jeff: what are we going to do? Where's it going to land?

Brent: I'm gonna stretch this out and make it seem like it's a thing. And her, her, her, her.

Jeff: Yeah, it's number one for now. We'll see what happens next week. Speaking of next week, Brent, that's it for the Hour of the Wolf. Next week. We are watching whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi for the first time, and we've never seen these

Brent: Wait, I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Well, we didn't get any gu balding in this episode, did we?

Jeff: Nothing.

Brent: Okay. Continue.

Jeff: I just gave you more garabaldi than the episode gave. So based on the title alone, it's literally all we know. Brent just heard the name. What do you think whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi is gonna be

Brent: well, it's gonna be about Mr. Garibaldi and what happened to him, because last time we saw him, he was, uh, you know, attached to the butt end of a shadow ship. Presume I, I think in my head, he's presumably sailing back for Zaha Doom. And this is Sheridan's Escape plan, right? Like, like that's my, so does Sheridan come home in the next episode?

Oh, I hope not. I hope Sheridan's at where he is for a while. But, uh, I'm gonna say that Mr. Garabaldi is, oh, Jeff, let me ask you. This is the show. All right. You gotta think about this from a production level more I think, than anything else is the show at a. Where maybe it has a little bit more money now.

Maybe it doesn't have any more money. I don't know. Um, made a little more notoriety. Maybe j m s has finally gotten the studio off his back and he can do whatever he wants. That our gang is Als Lord of the Rings style. You've got this group went here and this group went here and this group went here. Sam Frodo's over here.

Uh, uh, Mary and Pippen are over there, and the other

Jeff: Eric, Warren and Cruz

Brent: You know what I mean? Um, is it possible that there's, okay, here's the group back on the station. Here's Gu Baldy, and then Sheridan's out here hanging out with dude for a while. And this is the way it's gonna be for a few episodes.

And this is, this is catching up with Garabaldi. Um, is it possible this is a, like this is Aldi's story. Maybe we don't even see Babylon five. We don't even see Ivanova and Dalen and Kosh and those guys. I think we got a flashover to Sheridan for sure, but maybe we don't even see those guys. It's just Gu Baldi and it's just, Hey, while they're doing that, here's what, oh, here we go.

Season four of discovery,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: no, I'm sorry. Season three. Season three of discovery. Where we left them off at the end of season two was the ship of discovery in all its crew flying through a time vortex and outside of the ship in a funky little suit was Michael Burnham flying through the same time vortex.

And when we picked up in season four, we get Michael Burnham shooting out of the time Vortex and we have her story, we don't even see anybody on the ship. And then season or the second episode is, The ship has come out of the time vortex, and what we later realized is it's actually a year later than where Michael Burnham landed like, so this is episode one was, here's everybody else.

This is Aldi's story.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: know this is a stretch. I'm really stretching on this one. That whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi is about garabaldi, but humor me, Jeff, please. I hope nobody got in a car. Crash over the excellence of that particular prediction.

Jeff: You know what I'm gonna do just for funds? I'm gonna go the exact opposite. I don't think Garib all is showing up in this episode at all. I think this episode is all Kar.

Brent: Oh.

Jeff: This is Kar going around the station trying to get a ship, trying to track stuff down. People shutting him down, stonewalling him cuz they're still worried about any everything else.

Like it's the, the, the panic that he felt in this one around people not really caring so much about Garabaldi and wanting to find Sheridan first is gonna come up to a fever pitch for him. And so this isn't gonna be about Garabaldi, this is gonna be him going around saying whatever happened to Mr.

Garabaldi.

Brent: he, is he gonna take that sweet Indiana Jones hat? Grab a shuttle and go look for Gu Baldy and Jeff once again, Gar. Okay, so Garabaldi and Ja car off doing a, a thing. Sheridan's out with what we're presuming is a first one potentially.

Jeff: Possibly.

Brent: And then you got everybody else back on the station. Lord of the

Jeff: And then you got Londo over here

on

Brent: we've got the Eye of Soar on out there. You've got the bridge of Zaha Doo. Jeff, this has turned into Lord of the Rings.

Jeff: Maybe it was all along.

Brent: Oh, Jeff, does that mean that when Sheridan comes back he's like, Gandolph the white

Jeff: Yeah. He's gonna, he's gonna look like me. He's gonna have his white beard

Brent: that mean, does that mean that Sheridan died? And he's gonna like, this is him getting resurrected into some new, like, I don't know, maybe a powerful being like or something.

The Sheridan's dead

Jeff: going beyond the rim is like, that's what he did is that's where you go to

Brent: And now he's gonna, but he's gonna come back at the first light of the third morning. Like is that Oh, oh, that'd

Jeff: that's where we

Brent: oh. And is there a Gollum? Is that Morden? Is Morden Gollum?

Jeff: Now. Now,

Brent: that's what I mean.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: face. Morden is Gollum. What do we think? And then we've got, we've got Londo trying to assassinate the emperor.

Let's hear. What would that, would that be Goor trying

Jeff: That'd be go

door. Mm-hmm.

Brent: huh? Suddenly

Jeff: I don't remember a lot of these,

Brent: Su suddenly, you know, Babylon five has turned into Lord Ring.

Jeff: Yeah, I, I, you know what? I bet And, and I, it's been Lord of the Rings all along and I bet there are people out there being like, finally they finally

Brent: if that first one dude, uh, if his name comes back as Elron, I'm gonna lose my stuff, man.

Jeff: Oh yeah. Cuz the techno major was L Rick,

right.

Brent: Which was, which was like a dungeon, the dragons character or something like that. Like, no, no. If, if he comes back as like, Elron, I'm, I'm gonna lose my stuff.

Jeff: Or it's uh, Tom, what was his name? Tom? Uh, Baba Dill. Was that the

Brent: No, no, no, no. But see, Tom Bombadil is not Elron. Like El Ron's a dude, man.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: You know,

Jeff: I'm just saying he could be that guy. Well, we have a lot of questions here. Some of them like what, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi? We're gonna find out all about

Brent: people are laughing at us so hardcore right now,

Jeff: I know , I feel like this is the discussion. People have been waiting three whole seasons for us to get to. They're like, yes it is.

Lord of the Rings. Keep going. I need to go watch the movies cuz I am way out and I'm not gonna read the books

Brent: Avoid the Hobbit. Avoid the Hobbit. Go watch the movies though. If you, if it's

Jeff: never watched,

Brent: legit. If it's been a while since you've seen the movies, go watch the movies.

Jeff: I haven't seen the movie since they came

Brent: You need to go watch the movies.

Jeff: I never saw the Hobbit movies. I grew up watching that animated one from like the late. I loved that one. Loved that one.

Brent: that one's

Jeff: Well, We're gonna find out all this stuff about this one episode next week and all this other stuff over the next 21 weeks and then some.

Thank you everyone so much for joining us for this Lord of the Rings Babylon five podcast, Don't forget to subscribe or follow us wherever you're listening and go to Apple Podcast, go to Pod Chaser, audible, any of those cool places. Leave us a rating or review. We'll read it here on the podcast. And who knows, you might be entered to win some cool stuff when we get to the season four wrap up.

So until next time,

Brent: Hey, Jeff.

Jeff: Hey man, what's up

Brent: Man, I'm really tired. Can we just get the hell outta here?

Jeff: initiating? Get the hell out of here. Maneuver.

Brent: I appreciate it. Where are we going?

Jeff: Well, Brent, don't, uh, don't you know, no one knows the shape of the future or where it will take.