The Long Night

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: I'm Brent Allen, and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we're watching Babylon five for the first time For you, the one who is.

Brent: Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters who are searching for those Star Trek like messages that are being done in a uniquely Babylon five way. Jeff, I

Jeff: While this is not

Brent: Jeff, I wanna try that again. I'm gonna edit how we do this. We're not editing the video, but I'm gonna, I want to, I wanna change this cause I think I, all right.

You ready? Lemme try this. Jeff and I are two veterans Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five for the first time. Searching for Star Trek, like messages that are being done in a uniquely Babylon five way.

Jeff: And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are sure to pull in those references. So to help us with that, we play the rule of three. That means each one of us gets up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. Those plates, no substitutions. Exchanges a refund.

Brent: hit that sound. Jeff hit that sound beat again. It, it had a hiccup in it.

Jeff: Oh, that's it. No substitutions. Exchanges are refund. Hey,

Brent: Hey, Jeff.

Jeff: I'm gonna share three reviews with us this week because we got a short one, and I'm gonna start off with a two star review. This one is from Apple Podcasts and it's from Koala brownie. Koala Brownie says, never quite enjoyable. If you're not a big fan of Babylon five and want to hear people complaining constantly about the things you also didn't like, you'll find this validating.

This will totally be your jam. But if instead you have a fondness for the show and want to re-experience it vicariously, this will be frustrating and uninteresting. The two podcasters will sometimes profess their love for the show, but these comments are layered between derision, disinterest, and dismissal.

they characterize themselves as being grounded in episodic sci-fi and then criticize the plot for not moving fast enough. In the balance of things, the investment is not worth the payoff,

Brent: I feel like that is somebody who, first of all, is not listening to this podcast at this point. So whoever you are, koala brownie. I hope you found something out there that you like better. Uh, everybody deserves to be happy. Um, that's probably a person who got lost in the middle of season two.

Jeff: Probably.

Brent: You know what I mean?

Like, they, they, they started listening, started going through. Uh, but that's also somebody who never understood what this show is actually about and seen and, and have been able to see the entire journey, uh, upon which we're, we have embarked. So, uh, you'll forgive me if I just shook my shoulders at that one.

Jeff: Yeah. We read 'em all.

That's what we do. Right. And because we read them all. Brent, we have a five star review. Oh yes. Famine, famine, Fain, I don't

know, fam. Famine something. Famine says. Awesome podcast. I really love the discussion. It gets me to relive the show again.

Brent: Hey, listen, famine, Fon, uh, he gets the show or she gets the show.

Jeff: Exactly. So, because that was a short one, we have another five star review. Oh yes. This one is from Audible and admittedly it's an older one. So I pulled this, uh, for the season three wrap up and we have a couple on Audible that were from a little while ago that I've plugged in here.

Brent: I gotta imagine we don't check the reviews on Audible that often because like, that's not something we're on all the time. Like you, like you and me personally, that we're not on all the time. So,

Jeff: I checked it before the season two and season three wrap-ups. I'm gonna be better about it cuz like we have some there and it's cool and we love them and, uh, so we're gonna be better about it. But this one's from Jesse. So, Jesse, my, or not Jesse, I'm sorry. This one's from jc. And jc, I apologize for not getting this out sooner, but JC says there seems to have recently been a resurgence in interest in the show.

Multiple YouTubers reacting to episodes, numerous podcasts, all with slightly different takes. Babylon five for the first time is one of the better podcasts hosted by two people, neither of whom have seen the show before and so far have been lucky to avoid most spoilers. Hearing their views reminds me of what it was like to see the show for the first time.

They're often wrong in their predictions, but sometimes hit quite close to the mark. I don't always agree with their opinion of certain episodes, but it's always an honest opinion and possibly opinions I would share if I was watching B five for the first time now instead of 30 years ago. What was new then has become far more commonplace.

Multi-season story arcs, characters developing over time. No sign of the reset button that plagued Star Trek. 30 years ago we had a lot less sci-fi on our screens, so we might have been a bit more accepting of dodgy CGI and some slightly ropey storylines that than we would be today. However, the podcast is rapidly approaching the third season and I cannot wait to see how they react to some of the episodes to come over the coming months.

Brent: Yet another one where I would say this person gets us

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: and it's, it's about reliving and listen, the episodes that we didn't like we were honest about. It was an episode we didn't like. And again, I go back to I, we said this so much back then. You guys are watching this with the foreknowledge of what's happening and what's to come, and you're looking at this in the light of that, and we don't have that knowledge cuz as this reviewer pointed out, we have so far remained unspoiled.

And thank you to everyone out there who is helping us stay unspoiled. Um, whether it's you are just preventing yourself or you are helping the comments stay spoiler free. Uh, that has been Jeff. We're, we're, we're, we're almost there. Like, we're almost there and we'll be fine. Um, but uh, yeah, listen, just give an honest review for where it is and let people join us along the way.

And laugh with us and laugh at us. Both are very okay, but if you don't agree with what we say, that's okay. But if you just wanna come here to hear us say what you think you want, want us to say like, that's not what we're here.

Jeff: not us. It's not who we are.

Brent: Yes. So thank you to the last two, and even the first one you took the time.

Hey, listen, it meant something to you.

Jeff: it.

Brent: Well, Jeff, you know, along with reading reviews was something we love on this show along with our rule of three. Another thing that we like to do on the show is make predictions. We had our, our last reviewer talk about making predictions. Uh, we tend to get to the end of the episode.

I mean, eventually get to the end of an episode, that, that,

Jeff: We always get there. It happens at some

Brent: sometimes a little sooner than others and sometimes a lot later than others, . Uh, but when we get there, what we do is we take a look at next week's episode based on title alone, and make a prediction as far as what that could be about. And that's the only time that we've ever heard it.

And that's the first, like, we don't know anything. We haven't seen thumbnails, we haven't, uh, read descriptions. We know nothing about what's to come and. This is the time where we look back last week to see what we thought this week was gonna be about. Jeff, do you remember what you said the long night was gonna be and how close were you?

Jeff: So I, I am a hundred percent convinced that Brent's time travel foray from last week was successful because what I said was there's gonna be a shadow on the station and somehow they're going to broker an alliance between the, the league worlds and Babylon five to go take on the shadows. And, um, the end, uh, kind of came to fruition, but my path there was way off.

Uh, so I'm glad that you had a safe time travel trip and that j m s was, uh, receptive to your pitch.

Brent: I, I keep saying it. It, it's weird how this works. Like we, I I feel like even now we are affecting what happened 30 years ago. Like, it's, it's just weird. It's, it's weird how it goes. Um, I said that given the title, this is the type of title that you use when the war is upon you, when you get to the big battle.

It's very weird to me that this is episode five, because I would think this would be like episode 15 or 20 later on in the season. Um, that's not exactly what happened, cuz I said there'd be these big battle scenes and epic stuff happened. I said there'd be an all out war between the Volans and Babylon five.

That's, none of that happened. None of that happened. Um, it was more Sheridan and crew planning, taking steps forward and planning. Um, but the one thing I nailed absolutely nailed was I said that this would be the episode where Veer and Londo would. Enact their plan to assassinate Carta, and that 100% happened.

He's gone. And Lao's prime Minister, let's talk about that. But dang well, Jeff, for those of, well, Jeff for those out there who did not watch this one first coming into it, or maybe they've never seen it before, they're just listening to the podcast, why don't you let the people out there know exactly what really happened in the long.

Jeff: Captain Sheridan says It's time to end the war, but history has shown us that before the end, there's the final battle. We see one of those and also see the beginning of the other, and also see the beginning of another. Emperor Carta and his entourage have arrived on Narn Lao's heart at work. Lining this people up is Cartia, enjoys, and then brutally murders.

A court jester. Veer is busy procuring the perfect poison. The stage is set and it's time. Cartia calls the court to order asking how Kar pleads to a litany of charges. He answers both with authority and with his fists. Jaar breaks lu's bonds through sheer force of will and attacks. The guards fearing for the emperor's safety londo ushers him into an anti room.

Carta continues to Bloviate and Londo. Londo tells him to be quiet

when the reckoning that Londo will face once he dies comes to pass. This moment just might be on the ledger. You see everything is falling apart. Londo has dropped the poison. In Carta, a coldblooded killer is strangling him, but just as all is about to be lost, Carta turns right into the waiting. Poison needle held not by Londo, not by Kar, but by Veer.

Veer has killed Emperor Carta. From here, everything falls into place. No one suspects poison and londo is elevated to Prime Minister. He orders the sonari to leave narn and frees them. The narn celebrate and veer faces the harsh reality of his life. The story is far from over though as the NAS celebrate some call for retribution, they wanna strike back at the Centar, but Kar forbids it.

But it's not quite clear if Citizen Kar holds the sway that Kar of the Kari once did

with one war possibly over, we move closer to another, possibly reaching the end of its road. With the Volans taking out planets touched by the shadows, they're now reciprocating and the shadows are destroying worlds that were once touched by the vlan. They have a nasty, powerful planet killer and it is horrifying.

And to make matters worse, the Volans are headed to a planet with over 6 billion people on it. Corian six. Knowing the alliance among the league, knowing the alliance among the league worlds won't be enough. Sheridan has a bold plan. Bring the shadows into the fight against the Volans. It's a simple plan, really.

I mean, it's not perfect, but it shows Sheridan's I do anything approach. He reaches out to one of my new favorite rangers, Erickson. He tells Erickson that his ship is the only one with Intel that if the shadows got their hands on would ensure that they would cut off the Volin attack on Corian six.

Erickson and his crew are to attack a shadow base, ensure the rest of the white star ships can escape and then get blows up so the shadow can and then get blows up so the shadows, get the plans, take the bait and head into the battle. It's rough, but it works. Erickson and his Menari crew make the ultimate sacrifice and everyone is headed to KO on six.

Sheridan closes out the episode by saying, on one side, the volans on the other of the sha on one side, the volans on the other of the shadows, and Malcolm in the middle. Brent, what were your feelings on the long night?

Brent: Well, I'm, I'm really just. Didn't go, the volans on the left and the shadows on the right. It stuck in the middle with you.

Jeff: Right? ? So many ways to go with this

Brent: But kudos to the Malcolm in the middle

Jeff: thanks.

Brent: okay, let's just get this out. Well, uh, okay. Lots happened in this, um, this season, Jeff has been a very weird season. It's, it's different from what we've seen in Babylon five so far. Um, I feel like we've talked about this maybe in the last couple of episodes, but this episode holds true. Once again, we have moved into a hyper serialized style of storytelling, and so much of these episodes is just watching it going, huh? Okay. Hmm. Everything's moving forward. Everything's happening. But it, it, it's, it's just like, this is what's happening. Okay, cool. There's not much to say about it though, you know what I mean? Um, I'm enjoying it. I've, I've got to wonder, and as a, as a podcaster, Jeff, I try to stay away from serialize, like hyper serialized shows like this on an episode by episode basis.

Like, I think these are best done in like three and four episode chunks, um, just because of the nature of it. Like, you don't really get enough in one episode to really talk about. So, um, I liked it. I think I did. I I have a question though, Jeff, that I'm starting to wonder about. We're only on episode five of season four.

Jeff: I think you and I are thinking the wondering the same.

Brent: Yeah. Are, are we gonna get to the end of the Volans shadow war early and then there's. Other stuff in the last part of the season that it like, because everything for the last three seasons and five episodes has been building to this big, huge war. I would expect it to come at the end of season four. Right. Like that, that's, that's where I would think it would be. But is it, is are we there? Because like was it Yeah. Did we do this on Mike in the show or was this after show? Uh, you and I were discussing how soon they were gonna kill Carta.

Jeff: We did it on, on, we put the over under, I put it at three and then like an idiot. I took the

Brent: Right. And I took the under right . I was

Jeff: yay

Brent: Yeah. Um, uh, I like Jeff. I think we might be wrapping up this VO on war cuz I don't see this, like what they're doing right here, lasting for another. 18 episodes,

Jeff: No.

Brent: you know what I mean? Like this has maybe two or three episodes at most if it doesn't wrap up in the next episode.

All of that to say, I really wonder what it would be like to go watch these first, let, let's just say it wraps up in the next episode. What is it to go back and watch these first six episodes as like a mini binge and talk about this story as a whole, once you've seen it all?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: How about you? What'd you think of this episode?

Jeff: I loved this episode. I thought this was a great episode. It was really well constructed. I think like to your point about we're just kind of watching the things happen.

Brent: Uhhuh.

Jeff: We, we've had, like I, I look at lost as a really good example that just like kept seeding, you know, it kept seeding and you're waiting for some sort of payoff.

And then when you finally got to the payoff, you were just like, oh, oh, okay. Right. Or Sopranos or game of like, you can go down the list of ones where they got to the payoff and it was just kind of like a letdown.

Brent: Although I would say I'm sorry, although I would say if you were let down by the ending of lost, it probably means you didn't really understand it, but it was very convoluted. But I think if you really understood what, what they were going for with the ending of Lost, it actually is. It's a beautiful ending.

Go ahead.

Jeff: It's brilliant. But I don't think if you were watching that week to week, you watched that last episode and you're like, oh, got it. It all like that's a, that's a show that you have to go back and just like Babylon five will be for us, I think. But we're on that home stretch. We're watching the things happen and I'm loving it, like the way it's executing.

I am not disappointed at all. A big part of it is the, the writing, the editing, just the, the physical construction of these episodes. The music in this one, it was dark, it was tense. Like when, when, um, Londo went to Poison Cari and it all fell apart in my head. I was like, if this was a regular TV show, you know, it's all gonna work out and he's gonna get the poison and he's gonna do it.

This is not a regular TV show. This is Babylon five. Everything's gonna fall apart. , we're gonna add more to this and then have Londo as a bad guy and do all this stuff. But the way that it came together was so unexpected and so amazing. But when you, like when I watched the episode the second time and took my notes, it wasn't that unexpected.

Those seeds were there, that Veer was gonna do it down to their facial expressions and everything. It was just, this was an accidentally put together, um, episode. One of the things I loved about it was there were only two stories.

Brent: Yes,

Jeff: There were only two things happening. There were no sidetracks in those stories whatsoever.

And aside from a little bit at the beginning and a little bit at the end, these stories were told on their own. Like we didn't cut from se from Narn to Babylon five and back. We were on Narn.

Brent: for the first like 15 minutes of the episode,

Jeff: Yeah. Pretty much

Brent: on five or whatever it was.

Jeff: Yeah, I thought it was. I thought it was, it was really, really well done. Yeah. I enjoyed this one a lot, but what to talk about, right? Where

Brent: Well, I, I mean, okay. Um, Brian Cranston in this episode. Did you I noticed that as a, as a name like right away, you know what I mean? And I was like, I love Brian Cranston. He is a phenomenal actor, and I was so excited to see what they're gonna do with him. And then it turns out he was a dude on a screen just standing there talking to, which was, uh, he looks so young.

You're like, this

Jeff: I know

Brent: early in his career. Like, we don't know Heisenberg yet. Right. Like, um, so I, but I did like him. I, cuz I, I, for a moment I was like, oh, is he gonna get like David Warner type guest? Like is he gonna do something? And no he didn't. And that's

Jeff: he didn't, but his, his narration, like, you know, Sheridan was in his office listening to the battle and listening to Ericsson call it out and it was like, I felt it, it was so good. It's funny cuz um, gosh, I don't know, around the end of the school year, last year, maybe a little sooner, my daughter got into Malcolm in the middle.

I think it was on Hulu. And um, like you watched, like you watched Malcolm in the middle and it's great. It's so good. Like a lot of it really holds up really well, but you, you can see those seeds for what Breaking Bad allowed him to really do and become. You can see those same things here where he's just in front of a screen or just voice overing and it's great.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I was disappointed

though. I loved the scene. I loved the scene where Sheridan was breaking it down. Like when he was telling him what had to happen, that was amazing. Leadership by Sheridan to do it in front of all the league people, there was no behind the door stuff. Very transparent, very clear and great leadership by Ericsson to be like, yeah, I understand.

This is what we're doing. We're in. I was disappointed because all he had to say, you know, when Sheridan was like this, you know, this, this is what it's gonna be, how it's gonna go. Erickson just had to say, we live for the one, we die for the one. And that wasn't there. We got the, uh, we got the whole, you know, we all know what we signed up for, chief.

We got this. It was, it was great. It was a good moment. But I'm like, you've got the lore, you got this stuff right here to make that powerful. And what, and, and what's the deal with Sheridan being like, you don't have to be married, do you? No. Ah, good. Well,

Brent: Well, okay. Seinfeld,

Jeff: Right.

Brent: what's the deal? Um, well, I mean, that, that part's obvious, right? That's the I'm sending you to your death. Let's make sure you have nobody back here. He's like, he, he's asking the question like,

Jeff: Yeah, you're gonna die. Do you need to go, like, make

Brent: So I, I mean, Jeff, let's call this plan what it is. This is in the pale moonlight. This Babylon five does in the pale moonlight where we're gonna bring the rolins into the war. I'm sorry, we're gonna bring the shadows into the war. They're kind of already there.

It's not the same thing. It's not Sheridan having a crisis of conscience over the whole deal. Um, but that's the plan. Let's get, we're gonna put these two together and just let 'em clash. Uh, well, okay. Let's talk about the plan because I, my

Jeff: Let me, let me, let me hit you real first. Let me, let me hit you real quick and then let's talk about the plant. But I do wanna say on that thought, I love the thought, but this is a rare occasion, I think, where Deep Space Nine actually went darker than Babylon 5

Brent: I don't, I don't think that these two plot lines were in any way, shape or form connected, lifted. There is too much different here to say that you pulled the same ideas.

Jeff: Yeah. It's literally like, the only thing you can say is it took these two outside forces and shove them together in a, in a, in a rough

Brent: Except, except the shadows aren't, aren't an outside force. They're very much a part of it. It's just, Hey, we're gonna force you guys to go fight.

Jeff: Yeah. We're forcing the

issue.

Brent: That's all it is. The other one literally was, we're gonna draw you into it and you're trying to stay out of it. So, um,

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: uh, yeah, I'm with you on that. I don't think it's that, but it's, it's that same, it has the same feel to it, let's put it that way.

You know, um, when I first heard, I had to go back and rewatch this scene a few times where he's delivering the plan because when he says, I want to bring the shadows into it, what I was, what I was thinking was, wait, is he calling for some sort of a meeting? Cuz it sounded the way he was talking. Like, I'm just gonna call a meeting with the VO lines.

We're gonna go have a diplomatic powwow. But no, that's not the case. He's actually going to force them to fight and then he is gonna bring the shadows in and just let them duke it out and hopefully get out of the middle of it and, you know, let

Jeff: Minimize. Minimize their damage as much as they

Brent: exactly. So what do you think of the plan?

Is that a good plan to go with? Like, because they, they talked earlier in the episode about they're giants in a sandbox and they don't care what kids they're stepping on.

Jeff: It was a, that was a great analogy for what this is, but I think it's, it's hard to say if that's a good plan or not. Right? Because no matter what the plan is, you have to, like, he, we saw him very personally send Ericsson and his team to their death, but he's gonna send tens of thousands of others. That first wave that he was talking about, that first wave is getting destroyed.

Those ships are not gonna make it back. So like, is is it a good plan? No, it's horrible. Like so many people are gonna die. But on the other hand, it's a great plan because if it works, then, then you, like he said, they want Armageddon, let's give him Armageddon and he will, Volans are coming enforced. In fact, what we've seen. As there's just kind of this mass, this fleet of rolon vessels that are, that are going through space. And so it's not like they're all over the galaxy hitting stuff. They're, they're so bring the shadows force. That final battle is a huge risk. I I also think though that, um, the risk wasn't massive. The risk was Ericsson's ship.

So if he went out and it didn't work, they lost us ship and they changed the plan. Right. They cha they, they go back to the drawing board. They can't not do something. There are 6 billion

Brent: Jeff, let, let me ask you. You were in the military, you served on a ship, right? Um, on a, on a boat. Sorry, A boat. Sorry. There's always that, that that line in, uh, pirates of the Caribbean. It's, it's a pretty boat. It's ship, sorry or whatever,

Jeff: Uhhuh,

Brent: Anyway, so you're on a boat, if, put yourself in Brian Cranston's position, right?

Hey, we're gonna send you out. This means certain death. But you are military cuz this was, this was him as a ranger with all his mumbar rangers. Like these were, this is what they signed up for. We're, this is part of the plan and you will go die, but it's going to mean all of this other good stuff happens. How do you as a, as a person who's a potato peeler down in the bottom, or, or a helmsman or you know, not somebody on the bridge, not a commander. How do you feel in that moment? Are you proud? Like, are you saying, yep, this is what we signed up for and this is a part of the plan? Let's go. Uh, I mean, obviously, well, I'm gonna shut up

Jeff: I, I think, I think it is that, you know, I think about, for example, so for me, I was, I was so very fortunate. I served in the mid nineties. I, I like to tell people I was in Clinton's Navy and our enemy was dirt. and our enemy fell I, I, I could strip and wax a deck like nobody's business, you know? And I mean, we did things, there's stuff that happened, but noth nothing to this scale.

And so, you know, I, I had joined like so many people during that time, joined out of a sense of, you know, honor and loyalty, but really also because like, I didn't want to go to college yet. Um, you know, I wasn't ready for that, that path in, in my life. That's what happened when we went to Afghanistan in Iraq.

Most of the people serving at that point were, yeah, I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna get the GI Bill, I'm gonna go to college, learn a couple skills, like I'm gonna do that. And then all of a sudden, like, no, uh, you're, you're going to the desert and you're going to watch your friends die, and that's gonna happen.

A lot of people did, did exactly what Erickson. Yep. This is what, this is the job. This is what I'm here for. Let's, let's go and do that. I can say for me, on a submarine, we went through so much psychological screening before we were ever allowed to even set foot on an actual boat, that if the order came down that this is gonna happen and you're gonna go down and make it happen.

We would've plopped into that training and we would've done it. It would've just been another thing that we did. That's, I think, the thing the military is very good at, right? Is just building that routine so that Yeah, when this is happening, it's not a big deal thing. You're just doing your job

Brent: Right.

Jeff: and you know how it's gonna end.

Brent: And that, I mean, and that's kind of what I suspect and, and had anticipated out of this whole group. Like, yeah, it sucks. You're going to go die. This is going to happen, but this is what you're here for. Like we need, and here's all the good stuff that, that hopefully is going to happen out the middle of that.

Uh, Jeff, I did want to want to bring this up. Um, in the episode, real early in the episode of Vva comes in, she and Sheridan are having a little chit chat, right? And she, you know, she's talking about like, you know, Hey, we just had another 10 ships join and we've never seen anything this big. And you're doing amazing.

And I would like to read my note exactly as I have it written. Wait, has Sheridan created a Federation of Planets that are united? What?

Jeff: I think he has. I think that's been the VO plan all along.

Brent: the Volans. This is how Star Trek gets started. That's what it is.

Jeff: This is a better story.

Brent: us the whole time. All the people out there, you guys out there have told us Star Trek is what it is when we get there. Babylon five is how we get there. This is literally how the federation gets started,

Jeff: This is such a better story than the one they gave us. An enterprise like this is, I'll take this one. . That whole scene though, Brent, it was so good. It was so good because the other thing that Sheridan has created is a leader in

Vva. I, I was reminded, you know, she told her story. We learned more about how her mom passed and kind of what happened there, but she didn't want to go, right.

She's like, I want to be there when this happens. And my whole life people have told me they'll be waiting, they'll this or whatever, and they haven't been. This reminded me of, and I don't remember the season one. But there's one where she wanted to go out in a star fury and do something, or Sinclair was gonna go out and she's like, well, I want to go too.

And she's like, what am I supposed to do here? Just stand on the command deck running two and fro and throw in two all day. Like, let me out there, let me do this stuff. And I feel like this was a really good callback to that. And her being like, no, you're not gonna set me to this side. I'm gonna be in this and I'm gonna command part of this fleet.

Like that's what you have trained me to do and I'm gonna do it.

Ah,

Brent: said, she like, don't you dare set me on the side for this. She's like, no, I'm not doing that. I just, you started this other thing and I need you to go do that.

Jeff: And wasn't I saying that like way back at the beginning of the third season, they need to go recruit the first ones and apparently at one point the end's, like when she's giving her speech, she's like, we will have first ones. We've been recruiting them for some time. And I'm like, yeah. Uh, 12 minutes is how long you've been recruiting them for

Hopefully it's going better than last time.

Brent: Right. I want, um, I want that job by the way.

Jeff: Just flying around and looking for

Brent: Yes. Not the other dude's job. I want the going to look for the first one's job.

Jeff: Just fly around and look. But you know what, I was, you just made me think of talking about looking for the first ones.

Ivanova got the party, first ones the tiki head guys to be like, yeah, just come out and say our names and we'll come and help. She did it by like saying, Hey, the Vons are blah, blah, blah. And they're like, ah, we hate the Vons. Those guys are awful. We'll be, well, I kind of get it now. I wonder if this is something they've done in the past, like overstepped their bounds.

It's just getting bigger this time.

Brent: That's an interesting thought. I wonder if that's, yeah. Uh, if that's what's happened. So Jeff, that's all I had on this particular side of the plot. Do you wanna jump over to the Londo and Kar stuff?

Jeff: I have, I have, I have a middle thought. So I, I was thinking, well, I forget what you were talking about just a minute ago, but I was thinking about, oh, about how, like are there just these four or five episode kind of arcs that move and I mean, we have 17 more episodes in this season after this.

Brent: then 22 of season five after that, and a few movies after that. Like

Jeff: and we're doing the big shadow battle next week, like already.

So in my head I'm like, on one hand I'm like, okay, so no, this won't be the big shadow. Shadow battle. There'll be more whatever. But then I remembered something. I was like, yeah, season three was all about the shadow stuff, right? Shadows wrapping up or moving towards, wrapping up the Centara Narn stuff that, we'll, we'll transition to here in a minute.

But then I remember this whole other storyline that happened in season three that we haven't even mentioned in forever. Remember Earth?

Brent: Right.

Jeff: Like what's gonna happen there? So maybe that's the next arc. Maybe somewhere in this, the SH shadow and earth connection let's us segue

over into kind of dealing with

Brent: because I mean, there's Cyco, there's Earth Force, there's Home Guard. We haven't talked about Home Garden forever. Bureau 31 or 13 or whatever it

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Uh, there's Chicky, you know, there's President Clark who's still out there doing weird stuff like,

Jeff: They were throwing, throwing ships at Babylon five, and then, eh, we're done because we're gonna tell this other story over here, so that's gotta come back. And so it gives me hope that we have more exciting stuff coming up in this

Brent: Well, you know what, you know what actually that kind of reminds me of a little bit is Lord of the Rings. You know, and, and these last, the, this last little bit I've, I think I've clued in, I, I think j m s pulled more from Lord of the Rings than DS nine pulled from Babylon five. Blown that out there. Uh, do you remember Lord of the Rings and how it had like 18 different endings and they went on like forever?

What if that's the case here? Like, because you're bringing up a great point, like so we get to the end of the na or the big Shadow War on War, but then there's the scouring of the Shire, right?

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: That's we, the next time we do a Babylon five show, we need to do it through the lens of Lord of the Rings.

Jeff: I bet people would be a lot more open to that. The uh, two star reviews would be a little more kind, I think. Yeah,

Brent: Although those have been very minimal because we have a lot of awesome people out there listening to the show. Lot of awesome people. Um, yeah.

Jeff: So let's talk about Londo Veer Carta Kar.

Brent: I just got, well, let's talk about, woo, that court jest, that was woo. Like did people really used to think that was funny? Is that really what a court gesture used to be?

I know. That's what we all have in our mind.

Jeff: If that was entertainment, you know, it's like, Hey, I'm, I'm king, I'm emperor. So this, I look at this, this is my prime entertainment is this

guy.

Brent: he's, he's, he's poking people and squeaking a squeaker. That's really what he is doing. I mean, the

Jeff: You know what my

Brent: ship did that to my kids, like,

Jeff: my literal thought when he was running around doing his stuff was I was like, oh, cuz it's like some, you know, Roman throw, wait, nope, nope. This is an our future that this is happening. Like, they used to have tv, they used to have, you know, prime, you know, entertainment events and stuff.

How did they, how did their culture slide so much? . That's fun.

Brent: I don't know. You know what it really reminded me of? Oh, this is my third one right here. It's okay.

Jeff: You're moving through these fast

Brent: episode of Voyager.

Jeff: Oh my God.

Brent: I feel about the same way, honestly.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: I shouldn't say this. I was kind of glad when he lost his head, although that was a little, that was a little over the top for Carta, but you know, whatever.

Jeff: Yeah. I, I, let's just say I didn't blame them.

Brent: Right, right.

Jeff: Like I understood, I understood , which is

Brent: so let's actually get into the, well, okay, let me ask you this. Did we know that Sonari have multiple hearts?

Jeff: Nope. I think this is the first thing. So they got, there's six, six things. We learned that in quality of Mercy, and then we learned more about it in, um, seek Transit, VIR, and then now Two Hearts.

Brent: So something else we learned about the, the, the lon , about the Centara, uh, in a previous episode was they like to use poison.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: And that's exactly what we used here, was a poison, an undetectable poison. I'm just calling that out because people think that I don't pay attention and turns out I actually do. Um,

Jeff: based on Acae powder.

Brent: there There you go. There you go. Um, I loved the scene between Londo and Kar in the cell the first time we got a look at,

Jeff: There was this the whole time as he was whispering.

Brent: Yes. And it was just a light across their face. And Kar had the, the scar on his eye for the first time, you know, in this, this timeline. Um, but he, he, he's telling him, you do this, you do this.

Whatever you do, do not touch the emperor. Whatever you do, do not kill him. You leave that to me. You leave that to us. And do you know what that reminded me of? Jeff?

Jeff: Hmm.

Brent: Do you remember way back in season two, maybe season early season three? Um, I forget exactly who was talking to who. I, but I wanna say it was Refa

Jeff: do you remember in Babylon five when these two people did a thing at some point?

Brent: anyway. No, what they were trying to do was, they were trying to get Londo to go get the shadows to come in and do some more stuff, and Londo was kind of already out on the shadows. He is like, I don't, I don't wanna mess with the shadows at all. Um, and they're like, no, no, go get the shadows. And he says this line to me, he's like, we are cent. If we are going to rule the galaxy, then we need to be the ones to do this, not get other people to do it for us. We've got to be the ones to do it. I was thinking about that this whole time when he is sitting there saying, listen, we're gonna go do all this. I need your help. Take, make this big distraction, but I'm going to take care of the emperor.

Not like I'm sonari. I'm going to do this, not somebody else. I, I don't know if those two. If that was meant as anything, if one was foreshadowing of another or anything like that, but that is a connection in a parallel that I really, really liked.

Jeff: Yeah, that's a great one. I did not pick up on that. That's, that's really good. I, I tied a lot of it. One, I just thought it was very big of him. Right. Like, just, that's next level. He said de vere near the end, you know, I will keep my promises, but now is he gonna keep his promises? He, he's gonna do it with a level of dignity through the whole thing for Kar, which I thought was, was great, but when Jaar was, when they were, when they were whispering back and forth the whole time, Kar said An empty, I seized through to an empty heart. Your heart is empty. Maari.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: I thought a lot about that line, and at first I was like, well, yeah, because like, he's having to sacrifice himself to make up. He's, he, he feels like he's making up for what he did, but he is not, he's just sweeping up the mess. He's not actually solving any of the problems that, you know, the, the root things and, and that's draining.

It's emptying his heart. But then I thought even more, Londo who Londo, who was, I forgot how to

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: right? Our favorite londo in those moments, he, he let that londo die to get back into his political scheming and doing the games. And he's used, he got into this trouble by political scheming and now he's trying to get his way out by political scheming. And that moment he let that londo die is when his heart emptied. But I think that you and I are on the same thing where Londo is. Londo is Sonari. That is who and what he is. And he makes his decisions. He does the hard things the Centar way every time,

including taking out the emperor or planning to take out the

Brent: Yeah, he didn't really do it. Veer did and veer, like Veer is such an interesting character and might be I, I mean, veer might be a top three interesting character when you really look at who he is, who he was. The journey he has taken and where he's finding himself. Do you remember when we saw War Without End?

And Kar and Londo like choke each other out, and there's Emperor Londo on the ground and veer just steps out. His shoulders are back, his head is high. He's looking down his nose and he bends down and he picks up the emperor's crest, and he's just holding it there. That that was, that was veer with some stank on him.

You know what I mean? This isn't that veer yet, but he's getting there, you know, and, and I mean obviously he's having his whole, his own crisis of conscience. I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately in this, in this season, crisis of conscience maybe. What was it? Forgiveness was last, last season. Last season.

This, this is it. This season's theme is crisis of crises of conscience, which probably talk about Gar Baldi and all that too, but whatever. But veer, you know, he turns around and I don't it. I don't think that veer had the thing in his hand, and the dude just turned around and, and walked into it. Veer had this in his hand and he made the decision, I'm stabbing you with this.

Jeff: Well, he had to push a button. Like there's like, well, they went through the operation of the thing that looked like it might have been, I don't know, a flute carved from narn bones instead of centar bones. But, but he had to make a series of conscious decisions to, to make that

Brent: yeah. So, uh, veer is, veer is doing something, uh, awesome. A absolutely, uh, awesome. By the way, Steven, first, I, I asked this question a couple weeks ago, but I'm gonna just say it again. He has definitely lost some weight and he's looking, he's looking pretty, pretty good,

Jeff: Yeah. He was looking, I thought unhealthy, like in the first episode, but he's filling back out. He's, he's what? Whatever, you know, he, he was looking good, but also, uh, on, on veers piece. And then to Steven first

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: in that council, kind of council meeting that they were having where Londo had all of his people, and he was like, this is the plan.

He dies today. This is what it's gonna look like. And people started doubting him. Veer is the one who stepped in and was making the pitch on why this needed to happen. Like he, he's holding his own. I remember back at, um, born to The Purple was the episode when we ended up with Veer and I think Netta and the doing the, like they were negotiating over some of the, the radish three stuff that was going on.

And he was out of his league. He didn't know what he was doing. He was asking, call him Londo. He wanted help. He didn't know anything. To now where he's looking at all these high powered politicians and people and be like, no, this is what needs to happen. This is what you're gonna do and this is how it's gonna go down.

He really held his own all the way up to where he has the moment after he kills Scar Taji, he's been drinking and he just lays into ToLondo. Like that is veer and maybe even Steven first's like crowning moment. That was amazing.

Brent: He's like, well, I thought, I thought, you know, you should have a drink, but then you can't drink alone. So I took a drink for him and then I took my own drink, and then that just sort of kept just going, going on. But isn't that so classic? Who Vera is like Vera is in this weird spot where he will do what needs to be done.

He will stab you, but you know what's different about him. And Londo Veer has a heart.

Jeff: he cares. It hurts.

Brent: Londo does not have a heart.

Jeff: No.

Brent: I. I said a while ago, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna reiterate, I'm out on Londo. Londo is Irredeemable, and I don't care what he does here over these next little, little episodes. He is doing his best to redeem what can be redeemed. But he had a line where he said, and he, it was in that council meeting you're talking about where they're like, uh, you know, they're like, well, you know, you are a friend refund. This is really all your fault. And Londo goes, listen, when I die, there will be a reckoning,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: but for now we've gotta da da. I think that's Londo himself, recognizing he's gonna have to pay in this life or the next, he's gonna pay for what he's done.

And, and we even in war Without End, when we saw old Londo, he. Just do, this is the, you know, the little bit of redemption to help you do this. Like, that's it, you know, he's like, he can't do much and he's right. He can't do much and he's gonna have to pay for this. Uh, but in the meantime, he can still try to do the right thing right now, which is good and

Jeff: up the mess. Yeah. He's trying. And I think the other thing he did that I thought was great was that scene with Veer at the end when he was drunk. That was a shining moment for OrLondo as well. Veer called him out. Right. He's just like, you know, I, yeah, I've, I've been drinking. It always worked for, Londo, right?

What, what did he say? He said, uh, how much more do I have to drink before I can look in the mirror and not see myself? Oh, but Londo didn't get defensive in that moment. Like he, he knew what was going on and he sat him down. It was, it was a really good mentor, like mentorship moment with Londo, where like he apologized for being mean to him when he first came onto the station and he validated what he did.

I loved what he said. He said, you did a hard thing, but to your point, you still have your heart. And it is a good heart. He didn't sugarcoat stuff for veer. He didn't tell him It's all gonna be fine. It's, Hey, yeah, it was hard, but you're gonna be okay. It's good. No, he's like, you will never not see his face Like this will live with you forever.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: But then he focused on vere's strengths and the positives. You know, you have a heart, you care. This is ripping you up. Don't ever lose that. Don't ever lose that.

Brent: I don't forget how to dance is effectively what

Jeff: Exa yeah.

Brent: saying there. Right. Um. Jeff, I know you've gotta be dying for it. Stations of the cross for Kar I, I picked up a bunch of 'em myself. Have at it man.

Jeff: The seventh station of the cross is Jesus Falls for the second time. We get that with Kars. He is being paraded around, uh, the towns, which strangely just looked like a set with, uh, some fire in it. But we get the, we get the, the falls for the second time. The eighth station of the cross was, uh, Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem in that station.

A bunch of women came to him and they were crying for him, and they were wanting to help and do things. And he said to them, don't weep for me. Right. Weep for yourselves. And, you know, know that I'm, I'm building a path to Salvation. Kar is greeted by a group of Nans and he says, they must not see that you are afraid.

Be strong now. I think this is the fine. This is the end of Ja car's, uh, stations of the. If I wanna recap, we got the first, second, third, seventh, and eighth of the 14 station. So he was condemned to death and scoured at the pillar. Uh, he carried his cross, he fell for the first time, fell for the second time, and then met the women of Jerusalem or the narn of the town.

I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that this was an intentional storytelling vehicle for j

Brent: Oh yeah. I mean this, this absolutely looked like londo Jesus. I mean, every image you've seen, if you've ever seen any passion play, if you've ever seen any movie about the crucifixion at Easter time or whatever, this is what you saw. Um, the difference being is, is Jesus didn't have a cross that was over his head, that he looked like he could just lift off his head at any time

Jeff: At any time. Like there was nothing holding it

Brent: Um, you know, the, the edit, I think this was just more the editing and the, the pacing of this, this. The episode where, um, Carta is talking to him and, and we see Londo, or not the, I'm sorry, we see Ja car, like wrap his hands around the one chain and then wrap his hand around the, like that, that pacing was very, very weird.

And then he just starts bringing his muscles in and Londo said earlier, he is like, my people have fixed the chains. Just go get 'em. And then Carta goes, I had 'em changed out anyway. So my question to you, who was right and who was wrong? Or is Kar just that strong? Bear in mind what we've seen out of the Narn over the years.

Jeff: I think, I think this was Kar being the mom whose kid is stuck under a car who all of a sudden can lift a car off the ground in the moment. This was sheer force of hatred and will for

Brent: And he broke those chains. They weren't welded together. I'm sorry, dude. If you're gonna have chains like that, you've gotta weld the links together.

Jeff: Right. Yeah.

Brent: You can't just leave them open like that. Um,

Jeff: Yeah. I feel like what in that scene, cuz I, I was a little disappointed in that scene cause I'm just like, oh, the stations are over. Like, this is fun to track. But then I was also like, this is the passion of the Christ part two. This time Jesus is pissed off

Brent: Right, right. So Carta is dead. He's done. Londo is now prime Minister, which I was a little disappointed cause he's supposed to be emperor. And I've gotta tell you, Jeff, I'm really struggling here with what is the prophecies that we know are supposed to happen. We know that he and Jaar are supposed to both die with their hands around each other's throats. And we saw that future in war without in part two. Um, we, uh, we, we know that veers eventually supposed to be emperor. We know that. We know all of these things.

We've also had two people tell us the future is not set. The future can be changed. So what I'm having a hard time doing is, okay, is this Prime Minister just a step to becoming emperor or is this the change of the future? Maybe Londo and Jaar don't die with each other's hands around their throat. By the end of this.

Maybe there is redemption for Londo. I don't think there is, but maybe there is actual redemption for Londo. What do you think? Is it, how are you on that? Like

Jeff: I think, I think Major Barrett was pretty. you will be emperor. Like that was, that part was for certain and the rest of it was kind of up to toss and the, and veer

Brent: did say that. You're right. She did say, you will be emperor. That's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: And so I think this is a step I, I don't know actually, you know, honestly as I'm thinking about it, it's like, it's almost like hey we need to get like two more episodes out of this story.

So we're gonna have you pit stop at Prime Minister, we're gonna have you go back to Sonari Prime. Like he told Veer, we have a lot of work to do back

Brent: Yeah,

Jeff: and that work is gonna be setting up for his ascension to emperor hood cuz there's probably a process for that. It is pretty weird though that just random dude gets to walk out and be like, we don't have a plan for a succession to emperor, so you should be the prime Minister.

Any objections? Oh no. He says, do I have your blessing? And like four guys are like,

yeah.

Brent: these guys just sort of came out of nowhere. I mean, I think we understand that they're the court that we've keep kept, we've keep hearing about, sorry, let my Kentucky come out right there. Uh, that these guys are the court we have continued to hear about. Um, I think that's who they're supposed to be.

We just haven't really seen them a whole lot. Like the only guy we've really seen outside of Refa was that dude making the really bad jokes, you know,

Jeff: yeah. Jokey joke guy or whatever. Who, who wasn't here on, on, uh,

Brent: Well, you know, we had to leave him back there cuz he was, uh, he had a gig that night. Um, so that's where, that's where Lao's going.

But Kar the Narn come in and they're just ripping down all the, I I'm watching 'em like tear up the throne set and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, are they doing this cuz they're not gonna use it anymore. Like, this is just

Jeff: Go, go ahead. Go crazy

Brent: just go crazy with it guys. We're never gonna use it again.

Just, you know, break it really good and let's make sure we get a good shot cuz we're only gonna do it once, or something. Um, but then Kar has this conversation with somebody who, I swear we've heard his voice before as a, as a, as a narn, but I didn't recognize his face because the face was different from what I, what I remember.

But basically they're going at it with each other about whether or not let's go kick some sonari, but. And Kar says, one of the most profound things that I think we probably might need to save for the end. I'm just making a guess. Uh, which was just phenomenal.

Jeff: Yeah. And it is part of the end what he said. I, I, I thought that whole scene was great though, because it threw back to midnight on the firing line after the Narn attacked Radish three, and they were in the council chambers and Dalen was like, when does it stop? You do this? So they do this, so they do this.

and Kar, who is in that meeting, she was saying that to him in this moment. He's like, it stops now. This is where it stops. I loved when he said too, he is like, they're already dead. Like there's no point in us going after them. They're already a dying people. We should pity them. Oh

Brent: that was, that was, uh, phenomenal, phenomenal stuff, you know? Um, And if you don't cover that in, in the, the Delta Fury portion, I'm gonna lose my stuff anyway. Um, well, uh, one thing, I, I still have no idea how you remember these names. Ragley, how'd you pull that out? Mean, finally was the first episode.

Jeff: Yeah. It's a very memorable episode, I

Brent: Oh, Jeff

Jeff: and I think I had jokes about Radish three, so. I remember that we saw Lao's ne whatever happened to Lao's nephew, John Mulaney, the Sonari. Like, where's that guy? I bet he shows

Brent: whatever happened in the, I remember the, the whole, the, that, that first season signs importance episode, like the, the season namesake. All of a sudden, like the big thing was about the, I we haven't, we haven't even talked about the I since.

Jeff: Yeah. There's the eye, but it's now Ja Car's eye, but it's a nah. And what? Yeah, but you know, Brent, eh, nothing, there's nothing wasted in Babylon. Five

Brent: Jeff, we still have a c the better part of a season and a half and more to go. So I'm,

Jeff: Yeah. I'm

Brent: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, no, he's not. Folks, please send all your emails to Jeff at Babylon five first, that's the number five, the word first.com. And, uh, please let him have it, please. Well, Jeff, I think we've reached that part of the show where it is time to boil it all down and see if this show or this episode really has any of those deep moral messages holding up a mirror to society, giving us hope, or even even showing us the path to a better future.

Jeff? And how much does it do it in a uniquely Babylon five way, because this is after all, not a Star Trek podcast. So Jeff, you're gonna be the one to do that by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five Delta Furies, a combination of the Deltas and the star furries. We used to do Pushing 'em all together.

We're gonna see how strong the message is and just how Babylon five it was.

Jeff: I really pulled two things outta this one. One of 'em was, uh, there was a really great back and forth what we talked about between Londo and Veer, where Londo was kind of taken. Taking his lumps for being a jerk to, to veer all that time. But he said that he treated veer poorly because he was envious of him.

He was envious that he was able to get to where he was and still maintain a level of innocence. He's envious because he was able to do what he did with Carta and still have that, that, uh, that guilt and still have a good heart. I, I just thought this was an incredible message because much like, um, oh, I, for, I think it was in, I think it was in interludes and examinations when I talked about love and the things that love makes us do, whereas here we see what envy can make us do, and envy is an US thing, right?

I'm not envy of you, Brent, because you did this or you did that. I'm envi envious of you because of my perception of what you did or whatever. It's a me thing that I can deal with. In this, we saw Londo acknowledging that for the first time, and I thought that was incredible. But the big message in this one, the one that's gonna move us to actually scoring real Delta Furries Kar, says, I did not remove one dictator from the throne just to become a dictator myself.

There's uh, endless amounts of stories out there about revolutionaries rebels who go and they topple a tyrant, a horrible individual, a horrible government, just within a very amount of short amount of time to become the exact same thing themselves. We see this happen two day right now, at this point, at the end of 2023, we're still seeing this happen, but Jaar goes on as he talks about this, that one he talks about.

The Narn are strong, not because of the voice of one, but because we have the voice of many. The Kari spoke as a group of many as one. That's the power of diversity right there, man. Like you have to have multiple voices with different points of view, different lived experiences to give you that whole thing.

And Jaar in a moment where he could accept that throne, he could be Naar number one, which if we talk about midnight on the firing line, that Jaar probably would've taken that deal. But that J but Jaar has grown. Jaar has learned, Kar has endured, despite what dude said and Kars like, no, we were doing some things right, like we can do 'em better.

And we're probably gonna see a lot of

Brent: I'm sorry. I'm sorry we didn't, we didn't talk about this part at all. When that dude looked at him and was like, we've all been here, what have you? Under which, by the way, I fully understand where he was coming from in that moment. Like, dude, you were out there on the cushy Babylon five station. We were here going through it, except he's looking at a dude with his eye gouged out in a slash across his face for like literally staring him in the face.

Jeff: Who is just gonna get killed by

Brent: Lit. Literally I had, by the way, I had to go look up what Viv section was. That is gross

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: for Can we, should we say what it is?

Jeff: do it

Yep. Break it down. Although Londo did a beautiful job describing it in an earlier episode, but you,

you

Brent: No. So it's literally when you take a person who is alive and you just start cutting them open, that's it. And he said, death by Viv section, ju, you're gonna be alive, you're gonna be awake. We're going to just start cutting you open until you die. Like, oh,

Jeff: yeah. It's awful. It is so bad. And then they were gonna like stack his organs up.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: and, oh, oh, but what? But that's why I loved, I loved his response also, which again, midnight on the firing line. Jaar would have punched him in his pouch, right? . He would've been like, dude, or this jaar just laughed and walked away.

Just, it's almost like, uh, from the mouths of babes, you young child that doesn't know anything.

Brent: Jeff and I'm, I'm sorry, to kind of squat in on your, your side. One of the things I'm trying to teach my young son is it is okay to allow other people to be incorrect. You do not have to correct them. And, and if you know that, you know, that, you know that you're right about something and they're just digging their heels in and they're whatever, you can just smile and be like, okay, dude, whatever.

You don't have to keep going at it with them, especially if you know that you're right. Like who do you have to prove that to? No one. It's okay. So when Jaar was just looked at 'em and just started laughing and turned around and walked away, I was like, that's exactly that whole idea. Like Kar had nothing to prove to that guy.

He didn't need that guy to be like, oh yeah, of course. I see it your way now. Like Buddy, you have no idea. And turns his turns around and walks away like he was so much bigger than that dude in that moment. It was such a power play.

Jeff: It was incredible. It reminds me of my favorite back in the days when I was still on Facebook and around like election time or whenever some political thing would happen and I was put a little post up there that just said, oh, your, uh, 26 page long Facebook post about such and such issue, uh, caused me to think about this in a different way.

Thank you. Said, no one ever just don't , right? Just, and in fact, if I get on my leadership chair, get on my leadership chair for a minute here. It's one of the big things I teach the managers I work with. It's not about you being right. It's not about you saying the things that need to be said. It's about you creating an environment where people can understand that's.

It's how about you being right? You give that up and you let the other person be right. And it's weird. They tend to understand, then they tend to perform. Things go really well. This was such a great message that came. It's really, to me, this is the key, the, the capstone on Ja Car's development. We're gonna see a lot more with Jaar, right?

And I think his story is far from over and we're gonna see how he gets, uh, positioned. But I think in the, the arc of, I'll say midnight on the firing land, or even worse, the gathering version of Jaar up to now, like that moment when he literally said, they're already dead and we should pity them. That's enlightenment.

That is growth, that is wisdom. That only comes from enduring. It was great. It was powerful. And based on that alone, I'm giving this one. Three Delta Furies. Uh, cuz it was the end of the episode but it was the cap. Cap to the whole arc. And I tell you what, I don't think he gets more Babylon five than Kar laughing at dude and walking away.

Brent: Is there any, uh, you take anyone from any series, ever, any one particular person in Star Trek that was a D V D cover person that would've been in that situation and would've laughed and walked away

Jeff: Cisco.

Brent: Maybe,

Jeff: Maybe I could see Cisco do

Brent: maybe later season? Cisco, not early season. Cisco

Jeff: No, he's gonna go fight that fight. But that's a big part. That was a big part of Star Trek. Kirk. Kirk was the peak of it. Not only am I right, I'm going to force my right onto you. I'm gonna change your society cuz I know

Brent: And I'm gonna do it with my shirt ripped open.

Jeff: Yeah. Looking pretty good actually. And then I'm gonna leave.

I'm just gonna take off and leave and hope things go well

for you.

Brent: right.

Jeff: Brent, we are creating the absolute 100% and completely accurate definitive ranking of the fourth season of Babylon five. Currently, we've got in first place whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi, then the summoning, the hour of the wolf and falling toward apotheosis. Brent, you get to round out the top five.

Where do you put the long

Brent: Yeah. This one's not much of a question for me. This is our new number one. It's the best episode of the season so far.

Jeff: Yeah. I can't, I can't disagree. I loved this episode. This was great.

Brent: Again, I, it's, I know that I'm in the middle of something here, and I, I, I feel it, but this, I mean, each week I feel like I'm just getting more and more engrossed in what's happening, so,

Jeff: I think you said it in the summoning, I think it was the summoning when you said it, when you're just like, Yeah, we're, we're moving through, we're doing this stuff, but if this ever shows up on tv, I am sitting down and I am watching it. This isn't a laundry episode. This is me watching it. And that's the same with this one.

I, when I was watching this the second time, taking notes, like I had to rewind a bunch cuz I was just watching it again, like it's just really great episode. That makes this part hard because that's it. Now for the long night, we're done. Next week, we're gonna watch into the fire for the first time. Like Brent said earlier in the episode, we play a game where all we know is the title of the next episode.

We haven't looked at any pictures, thumbnails, synopsis, anything. All we know is that it's called Into the Fire. Brent, what do you think that episode's gonna be?

Brent: Into the fire. Okay. Well, as I've said several times, I think we are super serialized right now. And also I, I got it. And also, uh, JMS is pulled way more from Lord of the Rings than he has from DS nine or than DS nine pulled from Babylon five. So here's what I think is gonna happen. You remember back in the day when I used to say, well, I think the next episode is a continuation of the story that they set up here. I'm literally saying that for this one. I think this next episode is a Vva heading off to meet the first ones. And that'll be a part of it. And the rest of it is gonna be about the volans and the shadows and the humans getting in the middle of whatever they're getting in the middle of. I think that's this next episode. I should be safe and end it there, but I'm gonna go a little bit deeper and get a little more specific with it. Okay. Um, and this is where the Lord of the Rings piece comes in. I'm feeling a little frisky. Here we go. Uh, at the end of the episode, Sheridan and the crew are gonna be screwed. They're backed up against a proverbial wall between the shadows and the volans, and at first light on the third morning.

A vva and the first ones are gonna crest the hill, like it's the Battle of Helms Deep and come in and just, uh, save the day and obliterate the, the shadows Volans altogether, like shadows of Warland are getting toasted, both of them just getting toasted.

Jeff: You think that's gonna happen in this

Brent: I, I, I think that it's, so, I definitely think Ivanova and Crew are out looking for first ones and I think Sheridan and Crew are right in the middle of it with the, um, with the Volans and Shadows. My initial thought was where it would make sense to me is the episode ends with them backed against the wall. This is a cliffhanger episode, and then they pick it up in the next, next thing. Is there enough there to make two whole episodes out? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It could, I, I keep predicting it to take longer than I think it will, but it, it, it seems like they're moving really fast. So I think it might all happen in the same episode, but I wouldn't be shocked if it also ended cliffhanger style with Sheridan backed up against it. What do you think

Jeff: I think we're getting the battle right? I

think and,

Brent: This is the, this is the VLAN shadow war

Jeff: Yep. This is it right here. I I, I think it's gonna be less dramatic. I'm of the opinion that this is the last, I mean outside of like mop up or whatever, this is it for the shadows in the vor. Like I said, this is it, but I think that means we're getting the whole thing.

They're gonna show up, the shadows are gonna show up, the Vos are gonna show up, and then the first ones are gonna show up and we're gonna get a solid, like eight to 12 minute, all CG pew, pew, pew, pew. Oh god. Stuff going on with stuff. Intercut of I I've got you over here. Oh, escape life pod over this. Like, it's gonna be a super intense, super intense battle scene intercut with stories of Londo and veer on Sonari Prime doing their political machinations.

I think this episode will end with Londo as emperor and we're gonna find out. Right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to leave us a rating and review Apple Podcast. Good Pods Audible. I check it. I check that sometimes it's, it's, it's cool. I'll check it. I'll read it right here on the podcast. But what I do wanna do is ask you personally, I, Jeff Aiken, want to ask you on your podcatcher on YouTube, wherever you're listening or watching, go hit that share button and send this podcast, this video to someone who will enjoy it.

Someone who has never watched Babylon five before is watching it for the first time, or is watching it for the 483rd time, send it to somebody who would enjoy it. It'll mean the absolute world to both Brent and myself. But until next

Brent: Hey, hey Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. What's up,

Brent: So like, uh, you're not married or anything.

Jeff: Isil’zha Veni. In Valen's name.