The Long Twilight Struggle | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and absolutely everything. Everything changed so we've decided to watch this incredible series for the second time this time picking up on all the things there's no possible way we could have caught the first time around that's right but jeff and i are doing the thing that we do best jeff a little early jms speaks oh really okay wow yes i scoured the internet for stuff from jms for this week any spoilers make sure no we're good we're good i got you i got you okay here's what he says The purpose of a large measure of the show, meaning Babylon 5, the purpose of Babylon 5, Jeff, he says, the purpose of Babylon 5 is to elicit discussion of such issues.

[1:31] Where are the morals, responsibilities in any situation? What are the ethics of mass warfare? Where does expediency begin and compassion end? should compassion have an end for the greater good? If we can start some bar fights along the way, I will have done my job. And the fact is I don't have one single damned good answer, but I've got a whole lot of questions. Jeff? Are you saying, Brent, that we are the purpose of Babylon 5? No, what I am saying is, is we are fulfilling the purpose of Babylon 5 as spoken by Joseph Michael Straczynski himself. And in doing so, You and I are searching for these messages that are contained within. Now, the litmus test you and I use are where does it hold up a mirror to society? Where does it give us hope that things can be better in the future? And where does it tell us how to be better human beings for one another? That's sort of our litmus test, although that's that's that's a that's a broad scoop.

[2:28] Yes, to to to comb through these. Now, you did mention if this was if what I was about to read was a spoiler. And the reason Jeff did that, folks, is because from this point forward, Anything from any point in the series, in the franchise, is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about, whether it was physically in the show or actually in the show, or whether it was at a con, it's in a comic book, it was a panel, an interview, from a novel, anything that is Babylon 5 related, Jeff and I are allowed to talk about it. So if you have not seen this incredible series for the first time for yourself, trust us doing it inside a bubble is the way to do it. It's the way Jeff and I did it. High five, Jeff. You'll leave me out there by myself. Jeez. That's the way to do it. So stop the show right now. I would never tell you to stop one of our shows in the middle of the show, but this one I'm going to do it. Stop the show right now. Go back and catch our For the First Time where we are in the bubble because we had a great community help us stay in the bubble. Right. Do that and then when you get caught up come back and join us here because this is your spoiler warning this week Brent we're watching an episode called the long, twilight struggle for the second time I remember.

[3:42] For the first two seasons I think it was really just the second season I was doing sporadic reaction videos for our Patreon subscribers and this was one that I did I remember I did it in a hotel room in Las Vegas. I was speaking at a conference and I had to do this. It was an awful setup. The lighting was horrible. I'm pretty sure I was talking into my phone. Like it's just all of the worst possible. Things you could do for it. I had goosebumps through this episode. Like I'm like, oh my God, like I was, I was moved. This episode for the better part of a season was like the number one episode for me and maintained it's, it's, yeah. I loved everything about this the first time around. Uh, I think that this was the moment. I mean, we, we, we laugh when the, the, in the intro or, you know, this is where Babylon five becomes Babylon five. And we've said that a handful of times, but this was just such a, such a capstone to everything where it's like, not only is this an incredible show, not only is it doing things no other show is doing, but it's doing it at a level that no other show is doing it. I was completely blown away after this one.

[4:59] You remember what you thought the first time around you know earlier the season we had the long dark we did that was easily my lowest rated episode in all of babylon five here in the same season we have what for me is easily a top five if not a top three episode of the entire series potentially in a top 10 episode in all of television period and babylon five probably holds at least three of those three of those spots yeah a couple of them it's nuts this episode is great all the way through we get funny draw in this one yep and here's the thing jeff i don't rightly remember why i love this episode so much really what i remember is being captivated by this episode by holding this episode just i loved everything about this episode and it was this episode what was it that was in the episode i honestly don't fully remember but i do remember We're loving this episode and this stayed in my top tier and remains in my top tier. And I can't wait to see on a second watch where we write and justified in that or are we over hyping the episode in our memory? Yeah, we definitely had a few that we've watched the second time and it's like, oh, oh, so we will see if that's the case here. But Brent, I went back, I listened to our podcast from the first time.

[6:23] Would you like to know why you love this so much? I would love to know. To quote you at the, hey, so Brent, what did you think about this episode in the first time? What a season finale this was. Oh my God. What a great way to cap off season two. I said season finale? Yeah. Was I being facetious? Yes. There's no way. Okay. I had to have been. I was like, no, wait a minute. I know I can be a bit of a ditz sometimes, but I'm not that much of a ditz. All right. It was very much just a, like, how is it possible in two more episodes to top this? Yeah. How could that possibly happen? This was everything you would want in a season finale. In your initial reaction, you said there's a scene where Londo cuts off Sheridan and yells at him, just unloads on him. At that point, you said Londo is guilty and he is beyond redemption. Yep. I remember that. Yep. And you beat that drum a couple of times through the whole thing. Yeah. My response was simply, this is the episode we've been waiting all season, maybe all series for. Loved it. When we were doing our first time audio podcast, because back then our primary content was an audio podcast. And the YouTube that we put up there was just, hey, here's where we recorded the thing.

[7:41] We still pay a lot of attention to our audio podcast, but I'd say we're primarily a video content delivery at this point. Sure. But we had a lot of fun with the fact that we had an audio podcast. There's a lot of things you can do in there. There is an incredible Sheridan speech in this episode. Yeah. And you're like, hey, I've got it loaded up. I'm going to play it for this. And so you hit it, and it was Picard. Go to this line. He had no further. And you're like, oh, shoot. Whoops. then you I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry sorry do you mean it was this.

[8:18] Yeah it was that one let's see if you ever there one still loaded you had the president's speech from Independence Day.

[8:45] Who wouldn't vote as president of their fair country, the one and only Lone Star? Right. He wouldn't qualify, though. It's from somewhere in the Ford Galaxy. That'd matter. And then he played Sheridan's speech, which we talked about. That from this place, we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors. That a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line. No matter the cost. Yes! Deliver this message to the Parliaments of Conquerors! Oh my gosh! So good. I do, I still have it loaded.

[9:31] I've been wondering what those were, to be honest with you. Why do I have these here? Because you know what I also have in here? Oh, yes! That's a good one. That's a real good one. I also have purple. I don't have my green one loaded anymore. That's because we won, baby. We won. Yeah, well, I don't know if I'd call it winning. So he mentioned there the darkness, right? Yeah. And so this is the emergence of the army of light. And so this was set up as army of light versus the armies of darkness. And I had a real problem with that. And I talked a lot about- With how cheesy it is? Well, yes. And that's the thing we brought up quite a bit throughout our entire watch. It's awful. But my problem was that Babylon five is not about good and evil. It's about the overlaps of good and evil. And so nothing is quite what it seems. Yeah. And so why are we now drawing battle lines saying we're light and good and they're dark and bad? Did not, I did not appreciate that very much. How do you, I want you to reflect on that just for a minute now in your seat now.

[10:34] How do you, how do you feel about something? Or do you want to wait till after we watch this episode? Well, I think it's a thing that encompasses the series in a real way. And I think what I think now is that we, me, I assign goodness to light, badness to dark. But without light, there can't be dark. And without dark, there can't be light. So I think like having watched the series and understanding the overlap and how there's just so many facets to everything, I think that boiling down light and dark to good and evil is really undercutting so much of what it is. And I would almost say that it's the Vorlon approach versus the shadow approach where the Vorlon approach of order and development through this stuff can be enlightening and bring art and light things. Whereas conquering and conflict and things like that tend to be darker in just, you know, and what it leaves behind. And who's to say which one's right and which one's wrong. Can I amend something you said? Because I hear this a lot.

[11:41] You can't have light without darkness. You can't have darkness without light. And the truth is, yes, you can. The thing that you can't do is you can't understand what lightness is without darkness.

[11:51] Okay. So I was going to say. You know what I mean? Like it's a subtle difference, but I hear this a lot in a lot of places. No, they can both still exist, even if the other is not there. It's just actually. Well, it's by definition. Darkness doesn't exist. I was going to say, by definition, darkness is just the absence of light. Yeah. Darkness actually isn't a thing. It's like cold. cold isn't the thing it's just the absence of heat is the absence of light which listen we can get off on a whole lot of other stuff right now anyway back to what you were saying go ahead the other stuff uh there's a scene in here where londo gives his cough yes and we talked about how that's building on londo's death vision that he had you doubled down on well then that just proves he's irredeemable because he's obviously evil in that death vision that he's had so it's all true can i make a confession jeff you may i knew even then even then there would come a point where londo was going to redeem himself likely i was still holding out hope because as i would say much later on no one is beyond redemption yeah no one also it's super easy to say that now washington it is but i'm making a confession now you can choose whether or not to believe me yeah brent's full of it which sometimes you wouldn't be wrong but in this particular case even then and there There was – because a part of what we do is there's the emotion. I'm going to capture the emotion of how I'm feeling in the moment. Yeah. There's no more redemption for you, dude. Done. Done with you. Done.

[13:17] Well, the truth is no one is beyond redemption. Exactly. Agreed. I believe that in the – and I truly believe that in the core of my being. No one is beyond redemption. Except for that one guy. There's that one guy. Suzanne says – to quote me once again, Londo is dead to me. I might have been emotional. Might have been emotional, just saying.

[13:39] Thank you. Suzanne is a member of our Council Chambers tier subscribers who get to join us for our recordings live, and they're conversing with us. And so thank you so much for all of you being here. It's awesome to hang out with you. More on Londo. So that scene of him watching the mass drivering of the Narn planet. Like a key acting moment from Peter Jersk where he had no lines, just his face. And, and yeah, like the, maybe the most powerful acting moment in the series for him, maybe, and literally just was him staring into, into a blue screen, probably. At the time. But we talked about that at so much length, right? I compared it to the pilot of the Enola Gay out of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Of course, I tied it to the Rush song Marathon. You talked about it and compared it to Anakin killing the younglings in Revenge of the Sith.

[14:37] But we just really talked about Peter Juricic and what a gift he is and what an incredible thing he was able to do and there's draw you brought draw up this might be surprising for you to hear brent says i probably wasn't a fan was i this is as bad as the natoth recasting oh no oh no you said i i hate this no i didn't i'm such a jerk you were what an idiot i am are you kidding me i didn't like him at first either i came through i'm just like i said he was he was over the top it was too much but then jeff we're d-bags dude no listen there's a there's a mini journey here it's fine all right all right then in the episode they explained why they did the recasting and he continued kind of doing his thing and you're like oh okay i get it i'm warming like when you ended you're i'm i'm warming up to this guy okay fair enough yeah you were just excited that they explained like there was a reason for the whole thing i i loved that for me i uh you know, we watched the episodes multiple times. A lot of the times they're on our first time. And, um, on the, my first watch there, I did not like him at all. Second time through, I was like, oh, now I get it. This guy is really cool. This guy is really cool. And that's really all we talked about. This was, it was interesting. You know, when there's really, really good episodes of Babylon five, I find that our discussions are interesting, but they're mostly us just going, Hey, here's all the ways this is great and amazing. Right.

[16:06] So not a, not necessarily a ton to pull out from this, but I am anticipating a small tome of information from your work because Brent on this one, you had the task of scouring the internet from quotes, word statements from JMS on this episode. Did you find, I don't know, anything on this one? Yeah, there's quite a bit in here. And I want to go ahead and apologize for how out of sorts this might seem because I did not do the good work of grouping this together. Usually I don't have to. This one really could have benefited from 15 minutes of me just going, OK, here are these topics that go together. Here are these topics that go together. Yeah, because the stuff from JMS is very scattered, as you can imagine. Yeah. So let's talk with what we were just talking about. Let's talk about John Shuck getting recast as drawl in regards to John Shuck being recast as drawl and talking about his performance, because his performance is so strikingly different than Louis Tureen, I think was the guy who originated the role back in season one.

[17:13] JMS says, in part, it's John's take on the character, but also what I had indicated to him that drawl had gone through some considerable changes by entering the heart of the machine and given him a greater, greater understanding and the freeing aspects of greater humor, almost like a comparison to Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. Quite funny, yet also somebody not quite to be trifled with. So John Shuck's performance was not just...

[17:41] Over-the-top Shakespearean, it was actually thought through. And he went into the great machine, Dral did, and got a sense of humor, right? Yeah. So the change is not only does he look different, is he a little taller and he's a lot younger, but his personality has changed a bit as well, being merged into the organic tech. So I love when things are done intentionally. I just wish that when they're done intentionally, it's also communicated to us and it doesn't just look like a mistake. That makes sense. Does that make sense? Although I'm not sure how Jameis would have communicated that within the show itself. Well, he did communicate some of it. Some, yeah, some. Also, talking about this, Jeff, you know, one of our main criticisms of this show. Wait, what? We have criticisms of this show? I didn't think you could do that. I didn't think it was okay. Well, this is one of the – you and I get criticisms for having this criticism. Okay, okay. And it's the criticism of dropped threads. But no threads are ever dropped in Papua. Oh, buddy, are they? What's one of our number one dropped threads that just pisses off both you and I? There's so many, I don't even know where to start. Well, it's related to draw. Stay in the zone.

[18:54] Hey, you can have all my Epsilon 3. It's all for you. And I'm going to keep that close to my chest and play it when it's important. Yeah. And it was going to be a big thing. Because listen, ultimately, Epsilon 3 was an antenna. And it served as the thing that sent one back in that thing back Babylon for back in time in that one episode. Yep. Like it was, it was a MacGuffin to make something else happen at what it didn't actually serve the, the larger store story in as in as significant a way as it was leading up to be. Frankly, it would be fine if they didn't have that moment with Sheridan being like, well, I'm saving that for the, my ACE in the hole. I'd, Totally checkoffing what a big deal it's going to be. And then nothing. Yeah. So there's a reason for that. There's actually a real reason for that. Let's talk. I know that was, that was my face to a legit drop threat. Okay. Yes. Here it is. The reason we see so little draw is because they had already recast him once and they got John Chuck.

[19:56] Then John Chuck went off and got a job on Broadway in a revival of hello Dolly. That makes so much sense. his availability was nil like it was so small rather than recasting him yet again and having to explain the change yet again and all that sort of stuff he just made the decision to kind of let the character go this also affected the plans for epsilon 3 and the stuff he wanted to do with epsilon 3 he never really got to do because drawl had to go he just it was he's like sometimes you You got to let stuff go. You can't focus on everything. And he describes it as a bitter disappointment. I get that. That makes so much sense. I do too. And it makes, so to sit back and go dropped thread again intentionally. And I'm going to say, yes, it is a dropped thread because he literally just dropped it and said, I can't. I just can't do this anymore. So I wonder if later on when they mentioned that, like, oh, I'm holding on to it. I'm going to use it. Maybe there was like, oh, maybe we can get them scheduled. It's a hopeful. Oh, no, it's not. I shouldn't have brought that back up. Sorry. We accept your apology. Joe Michael Straczynski.

[21:05] Did you know, just a little bit broadening out, JMS actually premiered this episode, not on TV. Yep. If you were there, you were present at the 1995 Chicago Comic-Con. You had the opportunity to see this episode before anyone else. Oh, that had to have been so cool. Right? How much do you want to get in our little time machine, Jeff, and go back for that event? Right.

[21:28] The title. I think we have talked about this at some point in some length, probably in comment sections and stuff like that, but let's make it official and talk about it here. The title comes from a speech. Do you have any idea who gave the speech? Oh, I know who it is, but it's not going to come up for me. Former president of the United States. And the long twilight. Was it JFK? It was JFK. Now the trumpet summons us again, not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need, not as a battle, though in a battle we are, but as a call to bear the burdens of a long twilight struggle year in and year out. Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, a struggle against the common enemies of man, tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Hey, by the way, Londo and his four wives, what were they? The four horsemen? Oh, they were famine and pestilence and not the war one. I can't, plague. Plague. or whatever. Yeah. Okay. He was war. Yeah. So how about this? The struggle against the common enemies of man.

[22:39] Tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. Look at that. So Londo, basically the Malari family. Yes. Yes. This entire show... Is all about the struggle against the Malari's man versus Malari is what this is all about.

[23:00] I like that. I don't know that he thought that close of a connection. You could certainly break that down a little bit, but that would be that would be an interesting thing. Jeff, something we want to pay attention to in this episode is the use of light. Okay. When specifically candles and when people are standing in shadow versus standing in light. It is used very explicitly in this episode. So let's keep an eye on that as we go through. I've got some notes for that as we go through the episode, but let's see if we can't catch it first.

[23:35] This was a very effects-heavy episode, Jeff. They had more effects in this episode than they had in any previous episode, so much so they took over a month to produce. In comparing this episode jms says until the long twilight struggled nothing else has come close to this episode right um he says hell in some ways when compared with struggle the coming of shadows is just a light comedy in which nothing much else happens wow wow talking about the music talking about the music now we're going to jump forward just a little bit talking about what was going to happen with this music for season three that boom boom boom you You know what I mean? Yeah. Let's keep an eye out for it or an ear out for it, I should say. He says, what do I have in mind for season three for the opening credits music? I indicated to Chris Frank what I was looking for in a piece of music was like what he did with Long Twilight Struggle. Okay. And interpolates some of those elements into the main theme with a very hard sound. He says the piece in question is about the middle of the first really busy scene after the act break. Okay. I don't know what a busy scene is.

[24:46] It's relative, I guess. One of the things I love, Jeff, it makes my heart happy in so many ways, is when JMS pulls in actual physics. Yeah. Into his show. Right. We talk about that with the doors and how they swing open and stuff like that. The launch of the star furies, the rotational thing to develop gravity on the station and on the earth, earth vessel. He says some races like the Centauri and the Minbari don't use drive systems or use drive systems built to varying degrees on magnetic and gravitational forces. So their engines are built on gravity and magnets. Okay. I will also mention that some of the most advanced spacefaring engines that are being considered today, built, engineered, tested, all that sort of stuff, rely more on magnetism and trying to figure out how that interacts with gravity out in space and what that looks like that could make us go not faster than light. They tell us we'll never be able to do that, but will make us go a whole lot faster than we're able to right now. So the thing he did back here in the mid nineties is the thing we're actually doing, trying to do now. Trying to do. I'm not saying all, I'm just saying a lot of it really has more to do with magnetism, which actually is a for gravity is a form of magnetism. Weird, but whatever. Okay.

[26:10] Anyway, he says some of them don't so much go to a planet as they create a situation in which they are drawn towards the planet. I get that. Rather than powering towards a planet, they manipulate space where the planet sucks them in, which is kind of cool. He said one of the side effects of that is a field which allows for artificial gravity.

[26:33] Earth just doesn't have this level of technology yet. Yeah. So that field is what they use for artificial gravity on their things, which is why they're not just floating around and why they don't need seatbelts. Very cool. Yeah.

[26:44] Also like that, talking about the placement of jump points, this is something you and I have never really talked about to a large extent. I think it's just kind of been annoying. You know how like when they leave the station, they go out to the jump point. How long does it take them to get there? A couple of minutes. A little bit longer than that. Yeah. It's a good chunk of time. Yeah. And then there's another one like when they get out, like I think it's the one out there where B5 is like they get out of the jump gate and then it's like three hours to get wherever they're trying to go. Why don't you just put this a little closer? Well, he has a word for that. The reason for the placement of jump points is very straightforward. By the virtue of their size and the tremendous forces that are unleashed by punching a hole into hyperspace, you need that to be at a distance very far away that it's not going to risk severely damaging anything, including planets, stations, and whatsoever. It's just out there. It's safer out there than it is closer. Yeah. Yeah, we'll just drive. It'll be okay. So as if they formed the points between them and the enemy, which was, yeah, the rest of that doesn't matter to this conversation. I like the thought of that. The reason it's out there in the middle of space is because, yeah, the energy required and what that's going to do is going to mess some stuff up if it's anywhere close. So we've got to put it out there really far away. Kind of like, why is it when we launch space shuttles, they got to be way out there? Nobody's allowed to be really close to them. Yeah.

[28:11] Safety reasons, right? Jeff, that's all I've got on the front end. I do have several things that we can talk about while we're in the middle of the episode. It's just better saved for the episode. Well, Brent, let's watch this thing. Are you ready?

[28:25] Let's get it. I'm so excited for this. So if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Every episode is somebody's first and someone's favorite as well. And I have a feeling we're going to have some first-time eyes on this one and some people who this is their favorite. So we all know what's going to happen right now. Brent and I didn't watch this episode. Take notes and come here to discuss it. Now we're going to load it in and watch it right here with you on YouTube. So if you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see the edited version of this, kind of the reaction video style thing. If you want to see the full and unedited version of our viewing and reaction to this episode, you can get that at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on one of the many audio podcasting apps that are out there, basically you're going to hear the audio from that watch because Jeff and I are bound to have lots of conversations in the middle of that that we're not going to want to or frankly be able to rehash later. And we want to make sure you guys are in on all of those conversations as well. And then after that, we'll talk about our ranking. We'll talk about any messages that JMS says that we should be looking for in the middle of this particular show. So, Jeff, with that, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[29:46] The emperor is out among his people. Basking in there almost sincere aren't you there's a question i have for jms he has left things here in the hands of his was he named rifa as in like refer just as well without right sometimes better a point that i'm sure has not been lost on him i will only say he appreciates it it would explain his madness and yours you have been much in our thoughts later we know this has been a hard time for you our work here has cost me the life of one friend already how many more do you have lined up Yeah, talking about Urza right there. What has happened in the past is unfortunate, Londo. But for the sake of our people, we must learn from our mistakes and move on. Lord Reefa, I have come a long way. Look how harsh and sharp his hair is. Is there a reason I have been summoned here now? Indeed, Eddie? I have good news. The war which began six months ago is about to end sooner than any of us could have hoped. And you, Londo Molari, will be the architect.

[30:45] Will I now? Says who? Says this hand up you that just makes you the puppet. She's in shadow. Candlelight. And she smiles when it hits. Oh, no, it's not candlelight. It's drawlite. Yeah, baby. For a minute, I thought it was like a Sub Rosa moment.

[31:02] You sure? These guys are in blue. Take a look for yourself. Commander was afraid something like this might happen again one of these days. Something like what? Station three to Commander Ivanova. Remember, this is the fake out. Yeah. We talked about this. Where we're like is she already on to somebody else right and turns out so jms talks about this apparently uh there was a lot of people who were like why do we even need the scene in the show nobody needs to see the show and jms said hey listen if that was a vanova if that was a female, nobody would say a word about it we would all love putting it in there why would we not do the same thing for a male oh that's hardcore yeah good for him also uh as we go around here all of this steam is fake the studio that they're in there did not have hot water so watch watch bruce's performance here he's freezing cold and you can tell he's taking a cold shower like yeah it's it's it's like ice cold in real life like all of that steam is artificial because they didn't have hot water in their studio which feels like that should be like a union thing or something right yeah uh-huh but just but just look you literally like almost right you see him shiver as we go around the thing here you ready okay i mean the music and everything this is so oh this is avonava's in there with somebody else yeah yeah somebody's having sex in that show see him yeah watching he's gonna turn around it's like oh my god please cut me out of here.

[32:32] Just wanted to let you know we're picking up some unusual signals this is crusade level music right here like just the how it doesn't work for the scene i do hope i'm not inconveniencing but i think we should talk okay so color of light in cnc was blue everybody was bathed in blue john shucks breath bathed in like yellow we saw that yellow light come on into the lens face all right just noting i'm just noting i don't know that that actually means anything okay but A lot of times it does. I specifically what JMS talks about is light versus shadow. That's what we're really paying attention to. But colors are certainly an intentional thing. Yeah. My name is draw draw.

[33:17] He is so over the top here. You don't have any idea who I am unless there's another draw who could do what you just did. Mimbari who took custody of the planet we're orbiting.

[33:28] You do not take custody of the planet the planet takes custody of you it chose me when the one who lived in the heart of the machine lay dying i feel like i can since then sense older drawl in him return to me nuggets of wisdom appearance of 30 years ago i am but a steward humble, i can come back after you finish dressing no no it's fine i wouldn't wish to be i love this I love every bit of his performance here. He goes right back into it. Yep, exactly. He goes right back into it. Hey, it's Soul Hunter. Colonies that she, Dross, and Zok have all been conquered. So, fun fact. So that's William Morgan Shepard, right? Yep. He was on the short list to be cast as Jakar before they cast Andreas. Uh-huh. And so bringing him in here, this gives you a feel for what Jakar could have been. Almost was, right? Yeah. Like, yeah, kind of. Yeah. But if we go on fighting the way we have been, sooner or later, Homeworld will fall. We must change our strategy quickly. We will always have enough surviving ships to effectively defend Homeworld. They will only be gone for a little while. The window of vulnerability is very small. It's a big gamble. But it kind of makes sense. We're gone one way or the other. Might as well go for it.

[34:49] We will need alliances. Support. In the final analysis, your work here could be more important. On a fleet of ships. Jeff. Yeah. That is an entire podcast topic of its own. In the final analysis, what do you say? Your work here could be more important than anything else we do or something of that nature. That one line, let's analyze it. Yeah. Let's analyze Jakar's work while, you know, and see how important what it was that he did was. Well, you think about it. I mean, already with his work, they're getting food. They're getting supplies that they weren't getting. Civilian population is being better cared for because of his work.

[35:31] Well, I'll give you something else. Jakar's presence on the station made sure that all the other member worlds in the League of Non-Aligned Worlds remembered that Narn are not Centauri. While Centauri may be an occupying force and they may speak for Narn, Jakar is a constant reminder that they are not Narn and that this is an oppressed people. Because if you can get Jakar off the station, if you can get him out of people's minds, no, we speak for him. Well, you know what? It's easy to fade the atrocities of what could be happening. It's easy to let those things go. He's there as a constant reminder. And I think I liked what Justen said. Sympathy. Even if you can just drum up sympathy. Well, and that's, I mean, that's basically what I'm saying too, right? Yeah, yeah. Like Jakar was just keeping awareness alive. But also, what did he do? He led a resistance attack back home, right? Came to a spot where he became a religious icon that brokered – didn't really broker peace. No. I think – so it's interesting because we get to a point where it's because of his role here that things happen, but it's not because of his role here. Well, here's the question. If that makes sense. No, here's the question. What Londo does in the end, going to the keeper to accept the keeper.

[36:54] To own that role, but then to also play basically double agent the entire time, to hold the minions of the shadows at bay from the rest of the galaxy. Would Londo have done that had he not been in a spot with Jakar where he received forgiveness, where he was redeemed, so to speak? Right. Where he, where, like, is what Jakar did for Londo, the thing that spurred Londo to do this other work, which actually effectively helped resolve the rest of this oh that's too much for this little conversation right here yeah but i think we could oh my gosh think about that though yeah how we could go off on that man i like that moment just the ugly face of loss from one uh this isn't a good time ambassador i'm in kind of a hurry i know you appear to me as well perhaps we should continue if you're such a terrible hurry so there's some really good chatter in the in the council chambers chat. Where was it here earlier? Talking about the power of what, yeah. So there's a fleet of ships and then there's Jakar. A fleet of ships shoots one tentacle off one shadow ship, which is what we're going to see. Jakar mounts a resistance, provides station security, influences Londa. Like, it's, there's, yeah, there's no comparison. We intercepted the coded transmission from the non-strategic Notice how they're in shadow right now. Like they're in very harsh light, but like Reefa's in shadow.

[38:23] Their faces are shadowy. Draw off our main force while they strike elsewhere. We will be using mass drivers. By the time we are done, their cities will be- They actually said we'll be using mass drivers. Yeah.

[38:35] They have been out by every civilized planet planning the conspiracy the intention behind this like this is sick on a page this one move will end the war in days instead of months and save thousands of centauri lives we only require your assistance in death of your allies can we agree brent that what everything reefer said is disgusting and awful.

[38:58] We're going to intentionally use this awful weapon, flattening a world, because in the long run, it'll save lives. I feel like I've heard that somewhere before. I don't know. Middle of 1940s-ish. I'll spot in Japan.

[39:11] Two little spots in Japan. Strine the parallel. So, well, maybe it's not so interesting that you say that because that's the exact parallel and comparison that he's making. It's the same logic and rationale that we used when we dropped the atomic bombs back on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In doing so, we will actually shorten the war and save a certain number of lives. JMS is also pointing out here, I am not passing judgment on those of history. They're the ones who have to live with themselves. I'll leave it to them to judge. He's just drawing the parallel. That's all he's doing. So I think he – I disagree. And I disagree with him on not judging it because of whose mouth he put it in. He put it in Reefa's mouth. Clearly something we're supposed to take as, oh, that's not good. He's going too far. So the parallels there, but I think he's got some commentary on it. One of the refugees said that he was captured and interrogated by the Centauri, and they kept asking the same questions over and over. Seems that they wanted to know as much as possible about your homeworld's defense system. I'm not surprised. Eventually, they will have to turn their eye toward Narn itself. That's just it. You said their questions seemed unusually urgent. And one more thing. The only reason that this batch of refugees got out is because the Centauri warships pulled out before they finished securing the planet. Centauri don't work that way. They're very thorough. This is excellent work from Franklin.

[40:36] Also, how good is Franklin here? Yeah, exactly. They went right past our colonies on Mars and Io.

[40:47] I love that he's not just telling Jakar, he's letting Jakar figure it out. Kind of ramps up the passion and the urgency and the acceptance. Another example of where his presence on the ship is more important than a fleet you mean the station station yeah if there's even a chance they mean to attack homeworld the mission is too far along to.

[41:09] Stop it without proof with a little more time there's no time we're about to launch just then i'm sorry jakar i have to go i'll finish this conversation when i return just then is the one who told him his role on the station was more important than him being out doing this stuff jacar's doing his role on the station and taking it to just standing he's like yeah no you don't have enough i mean i don't know what do you think about that say that.

[41:32] One more time so just end says to jacar you're not going to come with us you're more important here on the station so jacar's doing his work on the station and he brings it to just end and just ends like yeah no we're still going to do even though you're doing the thing that i kind of asked you to do indirectly i'm going to shrug it off and we're going to stick with what we're doing that i don't think is the type of work that he was referring to with your car yeah doing on the station also there's there's a big piece of like hey we are literally in the middle of something and we have committed and what it takes to uproot this and go check that out over there if that turns out not to be true we've got to stay on i mean i i just take that with justin as he's in the middle uh he's he's boots on the ground you know if they could pull up and go see you can go look okay fine if they're in the middle of an operation you can't just stop that operation right in the middle you know you've got to see it through to the end that's my that's my take yeah what makes sense because this whole thing was we're gonna lose homeworld eventually anyway so we need to go all in on garage seven and so jacar being like no split your four like they were would have done before and not been effective either place so yeah yeah i just didn't feel great in the moment well it's certainly jacar is like dude you told me yeah i mean.

[42:42] Traal, we are here. Did you think I hadn't noticed, my old friend? Since taking up residence in the heart of this machine, I have explored its secrets, learned and discovered that I can look into distant worlds, see and hear things you cannot begin to imagine. Along the way, I've learned some things about you. I'm very interested in this piece that he's wearing around his neck. Yeah. The loss of your wife.

[43:12] Wow. Did you see the lens response at the mention of his wife? Hold on. I want to go back to that. And lately I've learned about your role in, shall we say a conspiracy of light aimed at your own conspiracy of light. I just, I was noticing the editing on that one. There was zero reason to edit to Dylan's reaction when he mentioned wife and there was nothing else that was mentioned about that. That was a shot that was a hundred percent specifically meant for Dylan. And I want to know you have it. I'd like for you to look it up at some point without whatever. I want you to look in the script and see if there's a mention of that in the script that Dylan hangs her head or something like that. Cause I really wonder what's going on with that. Cause that was, it's not like he said something else that we needed Dylan's reaction for or anything like that because Sheridan just stayed, you know what Sheridan was doing that entire shot? Listening mm-hmm yeah just he was stoned still so yeah there's something there's something there he mentions the wife and Dylan's like hmm yeah well it's either that or it's like oh that's just that's a tough spot for him like oh mm he's not ready for that we had an incident with this guy Morden it's like.

[44:28] But I wonder how many of my Anna theories came from that statement right there. Oh, it's possible. I'm like, oh, draws in on this whole thing. Suzanne's like, conspiracy of light, hmm, I'm going to try the word army of light later, but no, we're not going to call it that. Like, you can almost forgive Sheridan for calling it that at first, and then just to think about it, I'd be like, yeah, that's kind of like Oneeders. We're not, no. Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't sound as great. Also, Katerina points out that the whole thing I'm talking about here, it just could have been an acting choice by Mira. And you're absolutely right. If it is, then we probably don't see anything about it in the script. But I wonder if it was actually something that JMS wrote into the script. What I know about Katerina is she has easier access to that script than I do right now. Come on, Katerina. Let us know. Let us know. You just got an assignment from Jeff. Right. Go. I know the full capabilities of this place. I am prepared to place them at your disposal. Are you proposing an alliance? One of the first. There will be more to come. This has been a hard and trying year for you, Captain Sheridan. It might be helpful for you to know that you are not alone. And that in the long twilight struggle which lies ahead of us, there is the possibility of hope.

[45:44] Possibility of hope. What I love about that, just on the surface, is it's a struggle, right? And as humans, we hate struggling. We hate being uncomfortable so much. But in the struggling is hope. I think that's a powerful, powerful message. I see you're writing it down. I do. But you know what also he said at the beginning? He said, I offer you an alliance. The first of many. Uh-huh. Now drop all the way back into late season four and literally the entirety of season five, what's happening. The Interstellar Alliance. Oh, yeah. I don't think it's the ISA. I think it is. Yeah? Yeah. The easy thing is that's foreshadowing and talking about the joining together for the Shadow War. That's the easy thing. Yeah. All the first ones and all that. But the bigger side of that is this is the first of many to come. There really wasn't that many in the War Against the Shadows. There were a couple of them, but I still don't think they made a big difference. Right. But there's a lot more with the Interstellar Alliance. Is there?

[46:56] Yes. And there was a lot more between Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light that we never got because we never got to that part of the story. Yeah, maybe. I think I'm just so down on the Interstellar Alliance, and I don't think it's much of an alliance. Not what we saw. But what did we learn in Deconstruction of Fallen Stars? It took a while for it to really get going. But once it got going, it did good stuff for 500 years, 1,000 years, something like that, before it disintegrated, right? Yeah. So. Maybe, maybe. You know. And, oh, I mean, support that. What we see in season five is the struggle of the interstellar alliance. And through that struggle is the hope that we see in deconstruction of falling stars. Ben points these three things out. These three quotes. Drawl says, there is the possibility of hope. Lorian says, hope is all we have. And then the third one, there is always hope. Just because it's the only thing no one's figured out how to kill yet. That was spoken by Galen in Crusade.

[47:58] Good poll. JMS is trying to tell us something here, folks. Uh-huh. Yes. This is where we go. There is hope. There's always hope. There's always the possibility of hope. Earlier, you know, he says there's always hope. He said, that's what I tell my heart when I lie awake in the middle of the night. Sometimes hope is something you have to remind yourself of because it's so easy to forget about, you know? But there's always hope. I would say hope is always there. It's up to us to lose it. And it's up to you to recognize it. yeah accept it receive it all of it yeah it's like we want to lose it but it's like losing hope is a me thing not a hope thing i like how you just said that my friend thanks.

[48:41] So this is the scene right this is the scene he was talking about yeah he even has that big, yeah so the music in this scene inspired season three to attack totally feel it there no enemy ships detected we're just a minute i'm picking up a disturbance so just a note on these shadow ships here that i never knew jms says this shadow vessels are by level so when two of them come together it actually looks like four ships if you look at these these actually kind of look like two ships like inverted on top of each other it's actually one ship they're just by level they do that that's kind of cool yeah that's kind of cool, candles Jakar in the dark surrounded by light, they're mounting an attack they have a, It is the season three. Done. Done. Pull back. It's too late. That's so brutal.

[49:51] So you look how those look like two kind of mushed together. See, like I never noticed it before. That's two of them like coming together. So it looks like four. That's actually just two. So someone had asked when the ship takes the phaser thing and the thing comes off, if the ship was trying to phase out to avoid being hit by the mines, it says they know they don't phase out as much as they just absorb energy. Listen to this about the ship. Okay. At a cost of great pain. Oh. Remember, they're organic tech, which means they can feel, but only after a fashion. All right. Interesting. That is interesting. Let's notice some candles here. Yeah. Or lack thereof, I'm imagining. Jakar is also noticing the candles here. And... Gone.

[50:37] Hope is no more. And Jakar extinguished hope. It didn't go away on its own. But all of them are out, not just the one. They've all gone out. Wow. That's a little more than... JMS talks about how that's subtle. That's not subtle. No, that's right over the head. Yeah, right? You'd mentioned earlier in the thing, Shepard versus Katsulas for Jakar. And I think that... I mean, clearly things would be different, right? We'd see a different Jakar coming up. Shepard would be showing up in a different way, all those things. but this scene right here with jacar praying and that this is where like they made the right call well i you know and they're saying it over in the chat the two strongest moments of acting in this episode are from peter juracek and andres cosales katsulas neither one of them are speaking a line yeah it's just their facial expressions and acting and i gotta say we bring this up a lot Katsoulis is facial expressions through mountains of makeup. It's so wild. It's so wild. JMS actually talked about, he's like, they always wondered why I was on set whenever those two were filming. It's like, I gotta see this. Duh.

[51:49] Right? He's basically marking out, just like, this is so good. You're a baldy. We've got trouble. So what else is new? I mean, major. We just got word. The Centauri had begun an all-out offensive against the Narn homeworld. Started about an hour ago. This is it, Michael. The balloon's going up. Do you know what that phrase means? Mm-mm. The balloon's going up. There have been many explanations for where this phrase comes from. Most of them are obviously blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The first one I heard, and who knows if this is right, comes from World War I, where just before one side would go into battle, they'd send a man up in a hot air balloon to scout the enemy's location. If you saw the balloon going up, you knew combat wasn't far behind. There's actually an editor's note on this one. This actually goes all the way back to the Civil War. Really? The balloon's going up. war is not basically just means war is not far behind is what you're saying you know but that's where it comes from and that's that's what she's saying war is not far it's happening which tracks with everything that we know is happening uh-huh oh that was a good one.

[52:47] So many, God, to the face. I think this is where you and I first said, the Centauri kicks ass and the Narns suck. We've got mass drives all over the place. Any word about the attack? Just remember, they said the Centauri was mass drivers. I can't believe they'd resort to planetary bombardment. Right now, I believe just about anything. They've said the word mass drivers at least twice now. Yeah. All we have heard is they've been outlawed by every civilization out there. Mm-hmm. And she just said planetary bombardment. Never once have they actually described what mass drivers are or what they do that I've tracked so far. I just remember going through this the first time, and people just couldn't have the gall to believe that I'm sitting there going, what the heck is a mass driver? I don't know what a mass driver is. What does that mean? And people are like, what do you mean? I think this might be one of the very first places. They told you. It was right there. You weren't paying attention. I'm like. Yeah, they don't. And I'm curious to watch the bombardment because, like, I remember people said, you can literally see them hurling the asteroids. It's right there. And I'm like, I don't remember that. As if I'm supposed to know that that's what that is. Because he said they literally, they pluck asteroids out and throw them over. Yeah. You know how I would see that? Is if it almost looked like a catapult. Like it lasses them and grabs them and throws them. Like, oh, that's a mastroid. Wow, that's kind of neat.

[54:06] But, yeah, let's see what happens. I just got to say, call out Fabio's comment here. So right a mass driver is joker who pilots the normandy what it's a mass effect and he walks with a lamp i'm supposed that's supposed to be an asteroid that looks like they're shooting yeah.

[54:27] So JMS talks about the look of the Centauri homeworld here when they get hit with these bombs. The Narn homeworld? Okay. Yeah, the Narn homeworld. That's what I meant. Remember how I said earlier, like, I love when we bring, like, real- Physics into the whole thing. Real physics into it. Yeah. So two things about this. One, what you see of the planet's surface, one of the side effects of that is that, realistically, it's going to throw up a hideous amount of smoke, dust, and debris, and you actually wouldn't see anything. Which is what we're seeing here yeah also look at the mass drivers themselves you'll notice they are white they're glowing white that's because the amount of energy required to move something that big would generate huge amounts of heat making them glow look at that that's very cool this is the scene brad i just wanted to bring it back because this is the scene and we watched a little bit of there it's it's such a gorgeous like when we come in on it it is absolutely beautiful and then.

[55:23] Oh music you get the reflection of everything in the windows that's happening which is so broken you cut back you just see now you see Londo look at how the shadows covering his face as this goes oh my gosh look at that the little twitch in his eye and he looks away oh my gosh with the planetary bombardment in its fourth day the Narn government continues in its refusal to surrender minbari vorlon earth and other governments have filed official protests with this entire republic for their use of mass drivers against the civilian population but so far the protests have had no effect you and i the first time talked quite a bit about just the banality of filing a protest like he's describing the wanton destruction the war crimes that have been perpetrated and the other government's like hey um don't we protest don't do that's not cool we think that's bad that's not cool man yeah i think which we were which i think we were seeing at the time the war in ukraine was relatively new and countries from all over the world were filing protests in order to crying what russia was doing but it didn't change.

[56:33] It's like in a lot of public bodies, there's the concept of censure, right? We voted to censure this person. Yeah. I think that the people who are perpetrating actions like this don't care about your protest, don't care about your censure. It doesn't even exist. And to me, the idea of having a force that comes in and doesn't play by the rules, but then you try to use the tools of old to fight that. It's just, it's like, you're literally watching a world get destroyed, and you're, come on, guys, come on. I get why Jakar is furious. I get why we get what we get from Jakar from here on out. Sure. I get why that look is on Ivanova's face. Like, that's just like, really? Really? Government analysts predict. Yeah, Stewart said. Rifa called it out. Ink on a page. Your entire infrastructure will be totally destroyed. It is probably the last message they will ever send, and the hardest thing I have ever asked you to do. Say it. I remember this. We guessed for so... What is it that they asked? We guessed it was this, but we didn't know for sure. Oh, that he would stay here and ask for asylum or something like that? Yeah. Look at the light on Jakar's face coming from Sheridan. Captain Sheridan. Coming from Sheridan's side. I've been instructed by my governor.

[57:52] And ask for a sanctuary. You can literally hear him swallow his pride when he says that. A provisional ruling council appointed by my government will take up the responsibility of rebuilding a more civilized non-government. More civilized. Wow, where do you hear that? The responsibility of rebuilding this place to be more civilized is going to come from this other country over here. It's got to ensure the peaceful transition to democracy. That's all of the greatest entire republic. There it is. That cough. JMS talks about that cough quite a bit. Really? Saying, yes, that is the first time he's made this cough. This is like that one. This is the first time he coughs that will eventually result in the big, longer coughing of what that looks like and what that means. So, yeah. Yeah. We did not miss on that one. Prior to this meeting ambassador jakar asked for sanctuary on babylon 5 as it is within my province to make such decisions i agree surrender by all members of the kari is stipulated in the non-centauri agreement oh i'm sure it is but i didn't sign that agreement i love that neither did earth co-sponsor of babylon 5 the minbari government supports this decision the neutrality of this station applies even to the wishes of.

[59:12] Citizen Jakar may remain for 10 hours of your chooses. Right there.

[59:18] If your government is serious about all these rules, you're going to need someone here. All the other Narn will recognize as credible. At this moment, Jakar is no longer an official representative of Narn and must be removed from this council. We will wait a moment. Right there is where you said it. That moment. Yep. Yeah. That's the moment where I was like, nope, you're done. Can't. And the way the music hits in this part. Oh my gosh. Even Kosh was like, Whoa. Yeah. And here we get potentially Jakar's greatest speech in the entire show. As I say, just look at this, put this in your head, but now move yourself into season four, season five. My people will never forgive your people, but I forgive you and you.

[1:00:06] Started here well i mean take it take it a step beyond that jeff londo and jakar team up to go rescue natoth yeah and you have that whole scene where londo's playing drunk walking down the thing busting the toth out how do we go from here to that not just i can forgive you even if my people can't forgive your people how do you get to that active on missions together how do you get to Londo and as an emperor calling Jakar out from behind the shadows to say, it is time. You must kill me now, my old friend. You know? How did they get to joking about throwing rice at a wedding? With confetti on their heads. Uh-huh. But I'm curious.

[1:00:52] And someone can pull that. We might go and look at some point. But I wonder if the scene, the can't forgive, I forgive scene, I think it has this very similar shot composition as this. When we get to that spot, let's remember that. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. And though it take a thousand years, we will be free. Head held high. Yeah. Tell them that from this place we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line.

[1:01:47] No matter the cost. You know, Ben points out something here. Yeah. That in this episode, Sheridan says they're going to hold the line no matter the cost. But in Severed Dreams, he says this line, now we know the cost. Breaking away in civil war with his own government. He knows the cost and he still pays it. There's a Rush line from the song Bravado. Of course there is. Track two from their Roll the Bones record from 91. says uh we will pay the price but we will not count the cost and i feel like there's a lot of that here so brent long twilight struggle second time have stack up second time for you i i don't know if this is better than the first just as good as the first god what a great freaking episode all the way around front to back top to bottom it makes you feel it makes you believe you know the greatest thing here and this is slipping a little bit into the messages thing every single bit of this was about hope.

[1:02:44] Mm-hmm. Everything. Things are crappy right now. We literally have asteroids being thrown into our faces. We have things being stripped and we have, there's always hope. This is what I tell myself when I wake up in the middle of the night. I know what you don't know. It might be helpful. There is always the possibility for hope. Jakar says, though it take a thousand years, we will be free. This is all about hope. And in the face of the darkness, there is light and we see the light in the shadow. What a well-crafted episode all the way around. I think this is one of those episodes that knowing the background of having all these little tidbits by JMS, and I'm sure that I just scratched the surface. I'm sure there's stuff out there I didn't even find. Uh, this is what makes you appreciate the show so much more.

[1:03:29] This is the stuff that you will miss your first time around. And let me tell you folks, you wouldn't catch this if you didn't know, or you hadn't seen it multiple times in light of knowing what comes later on you only grow to this is what makes you grow to appreciate the show even more on the second third fourth 47th watch yep what a great freaking episode love it there is a heart this episode i'm reminded that episode from avon of earlier this season this station is about something this isn't some deep space franchise this station is about something this show this episode is about something this isn't just knives or soulmates or something like that this episode is about something love it jeff how about you i i really see this episode differently than i did the first time around the first time around it was shocking it was surprising it felt uh packed and unbelievable in what was happening.

[1:04:28] On the second watch, the roots run deep, right? And I feel like we see the fruits that grow from this moment. This episode promises us hope. We know that the hope pays. It's not clean by any means. And, you know, calling it light would be a stretch. But what they masterfully plant in this episode, that's all. So from this point forward, all we're doing is watching the garden grow. Yeah. And we know having been there, the garden is, is beautiful.

[1:05:03] And really well put together um to a person yeah including john shuck the actors characters, are what made this work the effects were gorgeous jam you said jms it took a month to put all this stuff together it was they were beautiful yeah but i would say you could take most of that uh space battle stuff we saw and reduce it to a couple lines of dialogue dog this episode would still punch you straight in the gut yeah maybe not have as big of an impact on the first time viewing but on the second time a hundred percent having it there was great we saw the horrors of what happened but um we recently brent on our other uh show stargate sg1 for the first time watched an episode that i described as perfect yep i'm gonna describe this one as, perfect yeah i don't i don't know that they could have done this episode any better i really don't i don't think so from a production standpoint from a writing standpoint um i know even jms says there's some things here like that londo scene where where he was looking out the glass they like they apparently they could they called cut just a little too soon and they actually had to wind up freezing the last couple of frames to make it last a little bit longer who cares who cares it's great and that and that's what jms says he's like it's still turned out pretty damn good yeah like yeah i don't know that you could do this this episode much better and holy cow i i can't imagine doing this episode with anybody else.

[1:06:31] You know, I, I firmly believe in my gut someday, someday the show is going to get a reboot and they're going to come back. I know Jeff just breathes and they're going to come back to something like this and it's going to be a different set of actors. And I just don't see how this is going to happen. Brent, that's exactly why I don't want to reboot. Yeah. Is it dated? Yes.

[1:06:53] Are the sets a little bit, you know what? Yeah. Is it still perfect? Yes. you come in especially with 21st century production sensibilities they're going to turn this into garbage you know some people in the the council chambers are shouting out the scene with sheridan in the shower agreed i'm going to disagree no i disagree i disagree the one the fake out is all important there right um even the music as cheesy as that music was it was perfect for that scene and uh while it does sound like it was written more for crusade than it was Babylon five for that scene. And what was happening in that moment? I feel like it worked. And I think it made draw showing up exponentially better than him just chilling and draw popping in there. So good. What would you have done if that had actually been to Lynn in there with him?

[1:07:49] Yeah. I mean, think about how, cause we often talk about how slow playing they are. This thing wasn't just opened up and there's John and Dylan just, you know what, Brian at it. That's what would happen if in the reboot, maybe they'll just do it now.

[1:08:01] Let's just get them in there so we can have some, well, they have to because in the reboot they're only gonna have like eight episodes exactly they'll still do it for five seasons but it'll just be a total of 40 episodes yeah and that'll be it yeah i i'm saying i've said it but i do not want a reboot i only want a reboot if jms is at the helm i still don't know if i do you'd watch it though i would but there's not a single studio that's gonna say hey go and do your thing man they're gonna be like yeah you can do it also we're gonna need this and you're gonna have to do that and this is gonna happen and you're going to have four years between each season because that's how we do tv now for some reason like it's jms would be dead before that's over uh-huh it's it's and that's no that's no slide on jms that's just talking about how long it takes those stupid things to happen and suzanne is exactly she's quoting me at the end of babylon 5 for the first time if somebody insulted babylon 5 i would punch them and brent a reboot of this series is an insult to babylon 5 i'm i'm gonna to wait and see what they do i'm not i'm not going to declare i'm not going to declare it an insult yet i'm going to wait and see what they do and based on what they do i probably might potentially join you in that idea they.

[1:09:13] Screwed up 90210 man like 90210 was perfect they rebooted or continued it and screwed it how do you mess that up literally silver platter of perfection we talked about hope as a message is there anything else that you uh you pulled out you want to talk about i have said all of the messages probably at least three times so i'm good on mine how about you i am as well.

[1:09:34] So, Brent, this is a part I'm really eager to get to, and the responsibility falls on you this week.

[1:09:41] I feel like I know, but I don't, right? That's the fun thing about this game is we don't know what the other person is going to do. As we create the objectively correct ranking of all of the episodes, season two of Babylon 5, I'm just because I want to play the odds here. And number three, we have the geometry of shadows. Number two, the coming of shadows. It was number one in the shadow of Zaha doom.

[1:10:07] Brent, where does the long twilight struggle go? Here's the thing. All three of those have the word shadow in them. They do. There is a pattern. And this hat does not have the word shadow in it. It doesn't fit. One of these things is not like the others. You know, I'm reminded of what JMS said. I quoted him earlier. You know, when you take this episode and you compare it to, I don't know, say in the coming of shadows, it makes that seem like a light comedy where not much happened. Okay, you take this episode and you compare it to the Geometry of Shadows. Geometry of Shadows is a season one episode at best, a webisode short. You compare it to In the Shadow of Zaha Doom, and In the Shadow of Zaha Doom lives in the shadow of the Long Twilight Struggle. The Long Twilight Struggle is the number one episode of the season. And I don't think any of the two episodes left are even going to come close to scratching that because I know what they are. And I know that they're both good. I like them both. But this is this was the number one episode our first time around, and it's going to stay the number one episode. This is a I dare say a top three episode of this. OK, here you go. You ready?

[1:11:15] So boil all of Babylon five down into, we're, we're, we're going to, we're going to beam me up this thing. Okay. Boil it all down. It's a whole other episode you're talking about, man. We can go for a long time. But you've got to get the story, but you've got to get the story and the feel of what Babylon five is about. Let's just say three episodes, three, three, three. I'll give you the arcs. I'll give you arcs as a single episode, but boil it down to three. What do we got? You got this, you got severed dreams, and then you've got, uh, what was the big one with the shadows into the fire into the fire yeah you might maybe could make an argument for sleeping and light coming off the end but that's just such a that's just a different thing altogether that's an emotional it's the culmination payoff for it's the payoff for five seasons of loyalty to the show is what that is so yeah yeah you can't yeah i think you're right i think it's the it's this episode the severed dreams arc and then the end of the fire arc yeah that's that's six episodes So you're talking nine, 10, 10 episodes total boils down the entirety of Babylon five. And you could, if you started here, it wasn't the entirety of Babylon five.

[1:12:20] Now, Ben asked, what about Ben asked? What about war without end? No, war without end is a great episode. It ties up the Sinclair thing and it gives some backstory. It gives some lore, but it is not the, if it did not exist, the show, the, the, the core piece of the show would still be there. You take out this, you take out the severed dreams arc, and you take out the end of the fire arc, and you've lost the show. You have the battle of the line at that point, and that's it. Yeah. You have season one. Brent, that doesn't go well. Where does Avalon go? I don't know what you're talking about, Susan. I'll tell you where Avalon goes. It goes in the trash heap. It's a late delivery to somewhere. But that's going to do it for the long Twilight Struggle.

[1:13:02] We are heading into the penultimate episode of season two, Brent. It's called Comes the Inquisitor. Do you remember your prediction for this one? I do. I said that a Centauri is going to be coming on board to try and make a move to take over the station. He is the Inquisitor who is coming. And Jakar is going to be the one to mount a resistance. And he's going to do that the very next episode after this thing. My God, do I not know JMS at all at this point? We did not. Like. We did not. JMS will do that, but he'll wait until season four to make that happen. Jeez. That's what I said. How about you, Jeff? I said that an Inquisitor, very similar, will come to the station, but they're specifically coming to Sheridan. That Inquisitor will be a person named Anna who will be coming to ask Sheridan what he wants. What was my response when you said that? I don't remember, actually. It's probably whatever. I think we were both just like, yeah, okay, whatever. It's going to be a thing. I will say for anyone listening, I think that comes the Inquisitor is the episode that I have been most looking forward to watching for the second time. Because spoiler alert for next week's conversation, I hated this episode. I deeply hated. This episode made me angry.

[1:14:25] I don't know if to this point, Jeff, you and I had ever been on more extreme ends of a spectrum on an episode. We have disagreed over episodes before, and that's fine. But I don't know that you and I were ever so far apart as it was on this episode. So I'm super excited to watch this the second time and see what impact that has on my impression. So, hey, stay tuned. You don't want to miss that. In fact, the first time around, I remember we even made a graphic, like an old school, like boxing sort of face-to-face thing with you and me. That's right.

[1:14:59] Oh, man. Because it was. Like, yeah, you get to listen to that one, don't you, for the podcast? I do, I do. I might listen to that one, just because I think it's funny. Hear us yell at each other. You don't want to miss this conversation, folks. You don't want to miss the episode. This is a beloved episode amongst many people in the community. So make sure you're subscribed if you're on YouTube, right? Subscribe, hit the bell so you get the notifications. If you're on a podcasting app, then subscribe. You can do that on those as well. We really appreciate reviews and ratings and all those sorts of things. Both YouTube and every podcasting app I'm aware of have this thing, little button, it's a share button. And I'm going to pause right now and ask for you to whip out your mobile device, and find that little share button. Or if you're on a desktop, which I know there's a good percentage of you that are on a desktop, pull that up, find that share button, click it, copy the link, send it off to three of your friends or enemies or people you don't know. Just go ahead and like dump it on them. Sharing this show means the absolute world to us when you're able to do that. And I feel like this is a really great spot in the show to do so. So until next time i'm gonna wrap up and hey jeff oh yeah what's uh what's up man hey uh are you ready am i am i ready for what for next week man are you ready yeah.

[1:16:24] What should I be ready for? Come on. Let's get ready to rumble! Oh, for crying out loud. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.