The Original 5 Year Arc And Babylon Prime

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:21] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and that changed everything. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time around, paying attention to all of the things that we didn't know the first time around. But don't worry we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series you know those things that that hold up a mirror to society maybe they give us hope that things can be better in the future they tell us how to be better human beings to one another jeff i got a personal one earlier this week yeah yeah it's for a future episode but something that we missed, and i can't wait to share that one uh when it comes around okay to walk up so yeah excited for that one but that is not this we're looking for the messages contained within our quote unquote episode for today yes we are.

[1:36] Now that being said i this is the point where i typically issue a spoiler warning today i want to turn that warning up to 11 right exactly because this from this point forward uh jeff and i have full permission to talk about anything from any point in the franchise that includes Babylon five. That includes crusade legend of the legends of the Rangers. Yeah.

[2:03] It's just crusade lost tales lost tales legend of the rangers you know any of the movies the books the comics anything that's come from a convention or anything like that uh or something that perhaps comes from the words of jms himself in the form of his script book volume 15 in this particular case so that being said no well i was gonna say that being said if you have not watched this show yet please stop i would never ask you to stop watching us except for now right stop this scroll back up in the feed and catch our first time watch which you're not going to find this particular episode on but catch our first time watch and then join us as you get to the second time because trust us you want to do it this way do not spoil yourself you have been warned we're going beyond the end of the first series is it the rim are we beyond the rim i don't know about that. We'll find, we'll determine that here in a little bit. Cause Brent, you know what we're going to do today? What are we going to do today? We are thanks to some incredible members of our community, Andrew and Mikey, who I believe, I know Andrew's here with us today. I hope Mikey is too, because oftentimes our council chamber subscribers and our patron are always invited to join us when we record. And today we've invited all of our Patreon subscribers. Cause this is a big deal. See, Andrew and Mikey both sent us this. It's the volume 15 of the scripts of J. Michael Straczynski of Babylon 5 and contained within this tome.

[3:31] Brent, it's the outline of the original five-year plan. I say nay-nay. Nay-nay. Not an outline. It's an actual narrative. It really is. Like it's an actual paragraphed out. Is that a word? Paragraphed out? Sure. Yeah, I think so. Why not? It is, it is taken his outline and turned it into an actual story of what the five year plan was at the very beginning, what he was thinking when he went into this series and where he was thinking about going with it. And to be clear, the original 10 year idea, because Brent, we've got a lot, a lot to dive into in this one. You, I understand when out, uh, you got onto one of those, uh, what do they call them? Torrent sites and grabbed yourself a copy of PowerPoint 98 or whatever, so that you could put together a visual to go along with, uh, with, uh, the, uh, a read of this, uh, this, this plan. Yeah. So here's the thing. Um, you know, typically what happens at this point, Jeff, is you and I go watch an episode, right. And the episode plays down there, pull a I'll mark over it because we want to respect copyright laws and stuff like that.

[4:47] But we played an episode and we have our reaction to it. We don't have that. This is written word. Yeah. Right. So how could we do this? And we flipped it back and forth and we said, well, why don't we turn it into an episode? And so, yeah, using the power of PowerPoint, just set your expectations, folks. Um we were able to go in and spend a ridiculous amount of time um pulling clips that actually, kind of show that what's happening ish like ish right if you know this show many of you guys are experts in the show and you know it far better than we do um hopefully you'll be able to recognize and go oh that's the point he was talking about from the actual show and sometimes you'll be like that's not it but i get what he's going for um and sometimes we just had to make things completely up to to fit it in but we're we made an episode yeah we made an episode out of this thing um it's 22 minutes long okay the whole thing is 22 minutes long uh we have a voice actor yes the incredible alec hayden hadn't hadn't alec hadden um who's an actor that i work with here and and he was kind enough to to go record this twice i want to make sure we get the pronunciations right for everything um and uh we were able to do that but jeff before we dive then.

[6:03] Uh, I think we need to just sort of set the stage for what this is a little bit, a little context, because in the book prior to writing this, uh, JMS kind of puts like a note into the reader. And basically what he's, what he's saying is, is this is the context of what this document is. So I thought we should read that first. Now we can read this. Right. Yeah. First. It's like just a page long. Um, do you want to do it or you want me to, uh, once you kick it off and if you get tired, I can pick it up, but there you go. You got it. Or if I start to suck, you just cut me off and jump in. Okay. All right here we go it says as i began work on babylon five's first season i felt i felt it was important for oh i'm sorry i thought you said if you sucked i could just jump go ahead no man i'm sorry i knew you were gonna do that i know you did yeah i felt it was important for me to know where i was going not just in terms of benchmarks as embodied by my note cards with individual episodes broken out in varying degrees of detail but as a true narrative you can't get a sense of narrative from a clutch of 110 3x5 cards. So I had to write it as a whole piece, as a unit, in broad strokes, to know if the story worked as a story.

[7:09] So I pulled those notes together and wrote the document that appears in the following pages. The next day, I met Michael O'Hare for lunch at a restaurant of Beverly Garland Hotel in North Hollywood, where all the relocated cast were being housed for work purposes. He was still trying to get a handle on the character of Jeffrey Sinclair. Who was this man? Where did he come from? And where is he going?

[7:34] Huh? Oh, all right. Uh-huh. Where are you going?

[7:38] As a veteran Babylon 5 person, I know those questions. He says, I hesitated a moment and then I pulled the pages out. I'd finished writing the day before, which means he did not plan to give this to Michael O'Hare. He wrote this for himself. Mm-hmm. And I handed them to Michael. He began reading. He didn't say a word. He just kept reading. And at the end, he cried. Not big, not embarrassing, but his eyes leaked in a way that said he couldn't stop them from doing so. To my knowledge, Michael O'Hare and I are the only people who have ever seen this document. If I showed it to WB or other producers on Babylon 5, I don't recall, but it certainly never went any further.

[8:18] Now at last, or now at last, that final magician's trick is revealed to the audience, completing the experiment begun with my first internet posting about Babylon five, and which has continued into the series of books and experiment and explaining how this story was told and how the series was made in the hope of creating a roadmap for those who will come after me. That's an important detail right there. The last curtain is pulled aside at last. My job is now done. it's up to the rest of you it's up to the rest of you to now pick up the slack you the reader i've told my story and the story about that story to its completion it's your turn now tell me a story and make it a really good one that's pretty awesome i hope you know jeff we talked about this with our first watch when we went through this just a little side here um about how the story of Babylon five for the first time was its own story. Yeah. Our story of Jeff and Brent and our, you know, kind of where we started as viewers versus where we ended up as viewers and the rollercoaster that went on that. And, and I, I kind of felt like we sort of mirrored the show a little bit or mirrored Lando sometimes, you know, we had our highs, we had our lows and, you know, you and I were determined to stay true to wherever we were in the process, you know, and sometimes we were in the same spot. Sometimes we're in different spots, But that was a story that.

[9:47] In and of itself. And I kind of like that story, to be honest with you. It's kind of fun as we're looking back at Babylon five. And that certainly is the main focus of the show. You and I are kind of revisiting our first watch as well and kind of getting to track that long too. So anyway, all of that aside, go tell your story, folks. JMS says that his job's done. He asked you to tell him a story. So there you go. I love that we shared and that you read that context very well. He sounded great. Thank you for doing that. Thank you, sir. But it's a little peek into the process, right? So we read the autobiography of, of JMS becoming Superman. We go back and you can hear our episode on it, but this isn't Babylon five. Isn't an idea that one day he was just like, ah, here's this idea. I'm going to go like pitch it. No, he thought about this for a period, like a long period of time and worked on it. And you know, although I'm pretty sure he's also said it just sort of came to him in the shower. Exactly. And had dreams about it, but it was the process of taking it from that vision, that idea, making it concrete, making it tangible on 110 three by five cards. That's a three by five card per episode, right? Like, wow. And then to flesh it out into what we're about to dive into and then to flesh it out into what we have all experienced that are here, the 110 episodes of glory that we're doing our second time watch. So I really appreciate just the look into his process.

[11:12] And like you pointed out, he wrote this for him, you know? I mean, it's just, I just, I love it. I think it's, I think it's fantastic. Yeah. I love it. And it took a lot of chutzpah to show it to anybody, including if you're going to, it's your series lead, I guess, you know, um, since the whole story really revolves around that particular character. So anyway, Jeff, um, that's where we are.

[11:35] How about we dive in? Let's do it. All right. So the way this works is, as we've said, we're going to watch this video. We'll still do the stop and pause and talk thing. At least that's the plan as we go through. And who knows? Maybe we'll post this video out on. Okay. There's no, maybe we're going to post this video out there because I think this is, you know, something I've not seen and I've looked around on YouTube. I've not seen anybody who's done this video.

[11:58] I don't think it's out there. I don't know that it's out there. It might be. I just missed it, but I've not seen it. and so this is the story that I almost kind of feel like we're getting to tell JMS a story that he's already told himself right a little bit in a new way yeah yeah so uh how long have you guys been working on this video our friend Andrew asks too long oh man I have one day I might publish the text messages from talking him off the ledge I I think this one is knocking on the door of 20 hours i'm pretty sure maybe maybe a little longer probably a little more i would think yeah probably more yeah it's it i mean it's at least an hour a minute so um maybe maybe more than that so anyway enough him and hon jeff let's get into this yeah so if you're joining us for the first time like brent said we're gonna watch this it's gonna happen now normally we have a whole spiel about cutting up for youtube and doing stuff no if you're watching this on youtube you're seeing the same thing everyone else has seen but if you want access to our episodes a week early if you want to have the opportunity to be invited to our live recordings as a member of our council chambers, you can head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon5first, that's the number 5, and the word first, and check out all the cool stuff that's over there. Alright, let's get into it. Let's do it. Accessing file. Babylon 5, series timeline.

[13:22] Following the events of the pilot episode, Sinclair begins to suspect that someone erased 24 hours of his memory from the final moments of the Earthmen Bari wore. The only way that this could happen is if he were removed from his ship and, He now begins the process of trying to find out if this indeed took place. If so, who's responsible? But he's not the only person following this trail. A secret group on Earth, a government agency, also suspects something happened, specifically that Sinclair is a traitor who somehow sold out Earth. Their agents will work hard to either break through the mental block, if one really exists, or in some other way, find out what happened on the line.

[14:11] So on your video for our audio listeners, Brent said, oh, here we are. You're written right to the point right here. I paused this at the perfect spot. Brent did a beautiful job. I mean, there's some great timing in there. I loved when you're like trying to figure out who it was right when he like pulls their hood back. Thank you for catching that. Like I had to like, you know, yeah. There's lots of places where I tried to really time up certain things. Show us. You did a great job. I appreciate you catching that. I'm watching that. I care. It's good stuff. But Brent brought in – we saw Sycor from The Mind War coming in. And my immediate reaction was like, this isn't the government agency they're talking about, Brent. But as soon as I paused it, we have night one and night two who are. So you're on track. But what I find interesting about this is we have heard the story that originally Walter Koenig was going to be offered the role of I think night one of them. Like the guy who does most of the talking, he had a heart attack, ended up moving him to mind war. It worked out pretty great for Walter Kanigan. For us, I think it was the bestest decision that could have happened. But this storyline, this thread kind of got...

[15:19] But in the original plan, this was a really, really key part of the story. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It certainly carried all the way through. All right. Which is this. Sinclair's ship was taken aboard the Minbari cruiser he was attempting to ram. He was taken prisoner along with other Earth Alliance, EA, pilots. This was the main battle cruiser, on which were almost all of the ruling Gray Council. They had come to oversee the final stages of the war and the coming occupation and rule of earth or its destruction should earth choose not to surrender, one member of the grey council had a revelation that one of the captured pilots was more than he seemed that an ancient prophecy concerning the very survival of the Minbari race was coming into fruition.

[16:14] So it's an ancient prophecy concerning the survival of the Mimbari race coming into fruition, which was given by someone who had time traveled and basically was just saying what happened. Yeah, this is what's going to happen in the future, but it's a prophecy now. And I know because I lived it, right? Like I'm already there. I love it. I love that prophecy.

[16:40] The Mimbari are a dying race. Their population is decreasing. Their cities are crumbling. Each generation their children are more weaker, more fragile, all as was prophesied. But one outsider was foretold as being able to save the Mimbari, give it a new birth. At least, that is one interpretation of the prophecy. Another reading of the same text leads others to believe that this outsider could cause the destruction of the Mimbari race. I like that concept, right? The whole idea of the interpretation of a prophecy. We talk about that in some of our analysis, right? Like, where is this prophecy? Who says this stuff or whatever? But I feel like in To Dream in the City of Sorrows, they explore this idea a little bit of this guy who's coming to save us. Not necessarily like the idea. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. To Dream in the City of Sorrows, that's a book you're referencing right now. Okay. Got it. It's a book that picks up on day one of Sinclair no longer being on Babylon 5 and goes through to his formation of the Rangers and Marcus heading to Babylon 5, or actually to the Drazi world for the Ranger Training Center, all that kind of stuff. Oh, like when he transferred – like not when he goes back in time as Valen, but like even now when he becomes an ambassador to Minbar. Yes. Cool. And then goes on to tell a story of how he became until Zah.

[18:07] It's a great story. It's a great story. But there's a lot of tension, mostly with Nerun, but Nerun's representing the military cast. And they don't say it explicitly, but hearing this really makes it ring where it's that difference of, no, this guy, I can't have a human come and do this. That's not going to save us in the case of the story read from the shadows. But they are afraid it will lead to the destruction. It's interesting that the original idea was that exactly. We have two interpretations of the prophecy. Which is like a mirror to society because that's pretty much how prophecy works. JMS will say later in this script, spoiler alert, like most prophecies or scriptures, you can only really properly interpret them after the fact. Once it's happened. I have my history with theology and those sorts of things on a very formal level. And that's something I actually, actually wrote a paper once called, uh, the, um, uh, Oh shoot. What was it? It was the implications of the implications of the doctrine of election on premillennial eschatology.

[19:20] Such a nerd i wrote that paper anyway but my thing was at the end of that was that but the truth is is we we as people are really really bad at interpreting prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled we just don't do it very well so you know we gotta wait for it to be done and then we go that was it right there now we right oh there's the thing yeah so anyway all right back into this you know council members insist that the outsider in real quick they talk about how the minbari um is a dying race and the generations are getting weaker and more fragile and what i'm what i'm curious is is what did that actually mean like we know draw comes and he's like ah everybody's changing you know p and and lanier says that too right like are we're getting weaker um i think a part of it the idea is like they're having less and less children like they're on a population decline might also be a part of that. But like, is it, what does it mean that they were getting weaker each generation that felt like they were losing souls? Like, like, I'm, I'm real curious, uh, where that, that, like what that looks like, because I got to tell you, I would look at the generations that are out right now. Like you're so weak.

[20:38] You're so weak. but i also know that when people looked at me when i was a kid like the old like the baby boomers and the greatest generation they'd be like gen x millennia whatever you guys are so weak right now like you know i feel like every generation says that of the next generation you know agreed suzanne over in our patreon chat says that the weaker and more fragile is a lord of the rings thing is it really oh we know he loves his lord of the rings stuff yep that's cool okay fair enough fair enough.

[21:08] Question is Sinclair he must be released and allowed to go on his way to find his destiny to do that the Minbari must surrender allowing Earth's future history to go unimpeded the military leaders strongly disagreed and there was a falling out between them capped by the suicide of the leader of the military cast and the desertion of a small but dedicated group of his followers was that how the shy elite died.

[21:40] Suicide was a suicide did he die via suicide i don't think so not in the show not in the show okay all right he just died i think for whatever reason i could be wrong i yeah yeah okay was responsible for the attack on v5 and sinclair in the pilot movie in order to avoid interfering with his destiny the gray council wiped sinclair's memory of all of this put him back in his ship and surrendered. His progress since then has been monitored from afar by the Minbari and their agents.

[22:14] Meanwhile, the Earth Alliance, almost obliterated in the course of the war, began the Babylon Project as a means of preventing future wars. Babylon's 1, 2, and 3 were sabotaged and destroyed during construction, each time by a different group. Babylon 4 vanished. Did we know that each time it was a different group well we didn't know it we didn't because we didn't know who it was but that was the speculation that it was a different group each time that's that's interesting you know i i do i do like this quote is like yeah we need to uh let sinclair go and go put him out there so he can go unimpeded also we're gonna take him and put him in charge of b5 so we can keep an eye on him he'll be unimpeded and we're gonna make sure he does exactly what we want him to do right um so i didn't realize this until going through this uh the the shy elites little rogue group that came out they were the ones responsible for the attack on kosh and that's why they set up sinclair.

[23:11] Okay okay this is i mean because this is what he was writing at that point like at the time this is why they set up sinclair for it okay interesting yeah you know now obviously that changes later as things get retconned because of things necessarily changing in the story but Still.

[23:30] Mysteriously. When Babylon 5 was finally completed, the search was begun for someone to run the place. The Mimbari, as participants in the last war, were first to sign on to the station as co-sponsors. Their condition for participation? Approval over who was hired to run it. They eliminated one name after another. Starting with Benzik. He was the first one he said to.

[24:13] The Minbari want Sinclair where they can keep an eye on him. They also feel that this role will be conductive to his achieving his destiny. But there are still factors within the Minbari government who don't entirely agree with Sinclair's possible role. If the Grey Council are right, then yes, he could be the one who helps their race find renewal. Could be. But if they're wrong, he could be the one to cause their own personal Ragnarok. For that reason, they selected Deline as ambassador to Babylon 5. His mission is to help Sinclair if he goes in one direction.

[24:50] I'm glad you pointed that out because I want you to pay attention to the pronoun usage as this continues, right? Yeah. Well, it's – I mean, and we've talked about this before. We know this, that the original idea was that the Mimbari were more androgynous and that Deline would change into a female. Yep. Uh, which is, which is why Dylan has such a, uh, we have people in our own community, people who are trans who really look to Dylan. I mean, and some in really, really big ways, uh, who really looked to Dylan as, as sort of a role model in that, in that aspect. And I think that's very cool. So, and I think it's like the time this was written, we had two sets of pronouns. That was it. Right. So I just want to just listen to all of you watching and listening, just listen to the use of pronouns describing Dylan. Yeah. I also think it's interesting when they said, hey, they assigned Delenn to do this. I didn't get the impression that Delenn was the one in the idea that we're writing here, that Delenn was the one who's like, hey, this guy's different.

[25:51] I don't i don't think that was um i mean sorry i think i edited the video to suggest that yeah it's just what i don't think it was the line i think it was somebody else um was the intent and dylan uh but i think later when we got to like atonement in the beginning um because i think it was they went and got dylan it was like hey come look at this and and dylan was the one who held up the triluminary and was doing stuff yeah and she i think kind of took point on that being a child of valen herself right you know although if she's a child of valen shouldn't have been glowing when it was in her hand yeah or it's who you pointed at it's who it's who the plot is pointing it at at that moment that determines it i i will say this though i i found this very interesting um delin's mission was to either help and actually had a different mission than just help well yeah i guess or kill yeah right like delin here well i'm gonna stop i'm gonna say.

[26:47] This now so i don't have to pause it again later okay the dylan comes into this whole thing if if i understand the the thing here right with the point of mating with him she's either going to mate with him and have a baby or she's going to kill him yeah either way it's gonna be a night he'll never forget either way she's gonna f**k him so but listen i have been a great defender of Dylan this entirely recolors the Dylan character in a not great way for me yeah not and I want to specify the Dylan that is in this script yes not the Dylan that we got the Dylan that is in this this treatment because and there's some things that even JMS says that I'm looking at it going.

[27:38] Your whole thing is about like it's not having to do with relationship I'm sure JMS would have made it like that you know what i mean like i'm sure he would have fixed it because this is a very rough treatment but just given the way it sounds here there's some stuff that's like delin's dirty dude right yeah and also i think with that though what a huge responsibility hey you one person our entire race is about to collapse so you go decide what our next step is on your own but i want to take a second and read a quote. I won't name the person. I'm going to read the quote. And if this person says it's cool to say their name, I'll say their name, but I don't want to just name them here. But this quote, I read it. I'm just like, oh my gosh, I feel that. When Delenn reveals herself in the council chambers after her transition, I jumped out of my seat shouting, she's trans, just like me. Yeah. Oh, you know, power. That's the power of representation for God's sake. That's huge. And in the nineties, the early nineties for that. Oh my gosh. And that's from, that's from Delenn from our good and dear friend, Delenn. It made, made so much of a point with Delenn that she took the name. Yeah. I love it. Which is really cool. Which is really, really cool. So, um, but Dylan here is still a, he, right. And it's about to do something and is about to do something. Pay attention to the pronoun usage. This is brilliant.

[29:01] To kill him. If he goes in another direction, the new birth of the Minbari race and the dawn of the third age of mankind turns out to be a very literal one. A melding of the human and Minbari races through a child conceived by Dylan. I didn't have Dylan and Sinclair kissing. So sometimes Sheridan is Sinclair. There it is. I love it.

[29:39] That's a change from the show. Oh, a dramatic change. The, the, the great council was like all in on this. Like this is at the great councils directing this, which was not necessarily what we got in the show. Well, there's a, I get the impression and we'll hear more about it as this continues, but there's the great council and then there's the military cast. Like it's not necessarily the great council is ruling over all necessarily.

[30:04] Hmm. I don't think I ever got that impression. you mean here in this in this in this treatment or the way it's actually presented in the show this treatment gotcha gotcha um it definitely i think in my head it was it was they they were just a fracture like the great council fractured with them and they they kind of came in and took over but i can see what you're saying um i i can really see what you're saying but yeah yeah like i remember the great council like i i remember actually being confused in the show on our first watch because they were like lamb blasting her but they also gave her the triluminary to do this yeah it was like and i was like why are you and realize it's some of the people in the great council did this yeah it's not the great council it's there are nine people that are individuals who have thoughts and and motivations i i love this um this idea right we two people from different races are going to come together and we're going to create a child that will bring us together One of my favorite, uh.

[31:06] Iteration, this is a story that's told in sci-fi relatively frequently. It's not rare, but one of my favorites is in V the final battle, uh, where it's, uh, oh my gosh, is it, it's not Lydia. I forget the one, but, um, the, the, the guy who mates with, oh my gosh, Robin, Robin is her name. And they have star child who is supposed to bring the races together. It doesn't happen that way. And she has magic powers and it got pretty ridiculous. But, uh, as soon as I read this, I was like, oh my God, it's totally from V I love it.

[31:42] This change takes place as a first-season cliffhanger. And it did! This is a troubling development to many of the Minbari. As a race, they put a premium on their own version of ethnic purity. We get a lot of that. This will be seen by many of them as the ultimate act of betrayal. But other forces are at work at the same time. One such force leads to the assassination of the Earth Alliance president, who is replaced by someone less sympathetic to B5's cause. Less sympathetic. Londo misses the grand days of empire that characterized the Centauri Republic. He'd give anything to... I just want to point out that all of this has really just been the foundation of the Sinclair and Minbari story.

[32:28] Now we're going to get to everybody else. Yeah. Starting with Londo. Restore that. He also sees the Narns as a real threat. He knows what his own people did to them at one time and it's not hard to guess what they'd like to do to the centauri in return or any other group that got in their way and jakar's goal is to keep everyone at each other's throats his worst case scenario is to see others getting together to form a power that could endanger his world again this is season one jakar totally i was gonna say let's let's stop and talk about that because now we're talking about what did we get in season one versus what did we get in the rest of the show and here is the intention, Jakar was in.

[33:13] With the intention of keeping each other everybody at each other's throats yeah.

[33:19] I kind of want to go back and re-watch season one now and watch him through those eyes now he certainly changes you know as he goes on in his journey but wow if you think about the gathering so much of that is him going after sinclair and and the earth then immediately after midnight on the fire line i'm going after the centauri yeah you know and and then he argues with the league of non-aligned worlds in the war prayer right or in death walker where does he land in death he He stirs up the league, right? Yeah, he votes against the council, like just seemingly for shits and giggles. Yeah, pretty much. Just like, hey, I'm going to keep everyone at everyone's throat. And I'm just this chaos agent over here pretty much. Yeah. And we had that idea of the Gnar. Remember, they were the warriors of this story, you know, and it turns out they weren't because they can't fight. They have awesome kicks. There's, I was reminded part of going through this. I got to the scene where the, it was late season two, but like the Centauri just start beating up the Narn and the Centauri do it with no problems. I'm just talking like the civilians in the station on the Zocalo. Like the, like the Narn just had nothing. Like here, the Narn looking all, all big and bad. And the Centauri just bumped up on him. I was like, oh, Narn.

[34:43] Narn. Anyway. Yeah. uh but interesting interesting piece with with jacar um you know that's an interesting, i've said interesting like eight times now that's that's fascinating if we were to do like just a whole episode on like him as a character of starting there versus where he ends up.

[35:04] Bringing everyone together he's the voice of unity at the end yeah oh i want to do that which is i mean you talk about dynamic characters i don't know that there's a single static character in this show that's on the dvd cover keffer, He changes. He was four. Yeah, he changes into a...

[35:26] Put his picture of him blowing up on the DVD. Londo finds his opportunity in the gradual introduction of a new race, which we will tentatively call the Shadow Men. Name will change later. Not that much. They will slowly make themselves known in the series, though we won't actually see them for a long time. They save Londo's neck at one point, bailing him out of a crisis and making him look good at home they gradually draw him to their side offering in exchange for his cooperation the prospect of restored glory for beloved empire and there's a difference here and i feel like londo is more complicit in in this story absolutely yeah yeah he was a lot it seems feels like he was a lot easier to bring in in this story than he was in the story that we got. And I'm going to call that a positive change. I agree. Yeah. I think it adds a lot to his character, but it's, yeah, because he was really more than did a lot of manipulation of him. Whereas here, he's like, let's do it. I'm sorry, Alyssa, talking about people being dynamic characters said, Kefir changes into plasma.

[36:34] It's kind of the ultimate change, really. Operation, the prospect of restored glory for beloved empire and a grand position for himself within the Empire. At the end of the second season, beginning of the third, we discover the secret of the Vorlons when Sinclair's life is in danger during a fight in the Central Core shuttle. He's kicked out of the shuttle and begins falling, slowly, at first, but he gains speed as he moves away from the center, toward real gravity. There's no time for anyone to get a pack and rescue him. D'Lynn, the only other person up until now to know what a Vorlon is, as hinted at by the nod to Kosh in the reception party in the pilot, suggests that if Kosh is going to do something, it should be now. Aside, the arrival of a Vorlon at Babylon 5 was further proof to the Great Council that they were right. They once had dealing with the Vorlons, but fell from grace, as it were, and the restoration of that connection is something greatly to be desired. I think that's an extra piece. I don't know that we saw the fall from grace, but, but I do feel even, even from in the beginning to the gathering, I don't think that we saw or necessarily understood that there had been a fallout between the Vorlons and the Minbari. But I do think we got the desire to like suck up to them a bit.

[37:57] A lot, actually. At that moment, everyone else in the garden says something remarkable. Everything he's describing right here is exactly what happened. Just substitute Sinclair for Sheridan. Or Sheridan for Sinclair. But it's exactly how it happened, which I love. I love that he was able to hold his peace. Keep that together. The arrival of a Vorlon at Babylon 5 was further proved to the Great Council that they were right. They once had dealings with the Vorlons. I thought the Great Council were going to look for any. And the restoration of that connection is something greatly to be desired. Right.

[38:32] At that moment, everyone else in the garden sees something remarkable. And what each sees is different. To our eyes, and those of Sinclair, what rises from the garden to catch him looks like an angel. Not a stereotypical angel, though. It must convey a genuine sense of alienness. Eyes that are twice as large as they should be. Eye on the forehead than should be the case. bronze skin, wings that have a slightly menacing look to them. But everyone else in the garden doesn't see what we or Sinclair see. They see a different figure saving Sinclair. In each case, though, it is a religious figure from their own world, their own culture. We will see each of these variations from their individual point of view. The place is abuzz thereafter. P5 becomes a mecca for pilgrims. Only a few know that it is Kosh who made this appearance. All anyone else knows is that the station had a visitation by their own particular sub-deity. Zack, mine. Only one person does not share this moment of sublime revelation. Londo. He sits at the bar, very much alone. Drink in hand, he shakes his head. Exactly as he wrote it. I saw nothing. I saw... I love that this was a core piece of the story forever.

[39:52] And if you can read Peter Jersik's lips here, it's the same line that JMS wrote. He already wrote the line. It's the same. Just the timing's a little different than what our guy read it. Ah, nothing. He seems almost brokenhearted not to have seen what the others saw, felt what they felt. Though Sinclair, Deline, and a few others finally know what Kosh is, that revelation isn't quite as simple as first scenes. The Vorlons are not supernatural entities. They are living, breathing creatures with a propensity for mucking about in other species' worlds. They have an attitude of, we know best, and have been to various extents the puppet masters pulling strings here and there for millennia, visiting worlds, creating what they consider to be the right context for civilizations to grow and prosper.

[40:49] Sort of interstellar nudes they are in short not both we both you and i are hitting this at the exact all right just so you guys know jeff and i actually both have control like equal control over this video so it's not just one or the other and we're hitting at the same time um jeff we've had this conversation a bit before and i know i've had this conversation with people in comments and stuff people in the community i think we've had it with our council chambers and our certain meetings about what is are the vorlines actually good are the shadows actually bad that's a great question it's a question that the show asks it's a question that even in this treatment jms else, jms himself is asking and putting out there i want us to have this conversation later tonight, all right i want to dive into that not right now i want to dive into that once we get through the shadow pieces and stuff as well we'll get to the end of this video um because i i have a position And I don't think I'm changing it. All right. On this. I want to talk about that a little bit more. I also have a position. Let's see where we, where we land. Yeah.

[41:55] Nudes they are in short not necessarily the good guys appearances can be deceptive yeah what someone else wants for your life may not be what you oh brent that's great correct oh my god i have to pause this holy crud i i knew that one immediately that that one was not hard to me i just have to say like so i i have gotten a lot of credit over the years for remembering, things in the series or whatever you for our audio listeners talking about someone else choosing what you want brent goes all the way back to grow pose and pulls out franklin and his dad oh brent thank you that's beautiful beautiful thank you i i i do have to say um i i put out on discord there were some people who helped us like i asked certain questions like hey which episode did we find this and hey which episode did we find that i knew grow pose i had that one um but there there's several of these clips that folks helped me out with and they were having i didn't tell them what it was for they didn't know it was necessarily for this some of them might have figured it out ben ben's a good guesser um but uh uh so thank you to those the to those of you who helped me out uh thank you so much because you guys were very part of it and stick to the end.

[43:14] You'll be deceptive what someone else wants for your life may not be what you want or what is necessarily correct. This vision, and the upswing in visits by fanatics, some of whom are potentially dangerous, further draws the eye of Earth Force officials already suspicious of Sinclair.

[43:33] This point marks an escalation in the storyline. Things begin to move faster. We discover, over the first few seasons, that the Psy Corps is not the benign organization it seemed at first. They are the ones who pull the strings that move the government. They know all the secrets, have much of the power, and they're trying to consolidate that. One change. I don't think we were ever led to believe they were a benign organization. I think that's true. I think the first we really heard of them was join the core, take the sleepers, go to prison. Yeah. That's not very benign. I do also want to say that I do appreciate the confirmation that the Vorlon are supposed to look like angels or what we would call angels. Like we were just saying that because that's the best word that we had. That's the right word. Message conveyed appropriately. We got it. Well done. Yeah. Meanwhile, the Shadow Men intensify their recruitment. They offer Londo something he can't resist, something that will make his career. They will make the Narn homeworld a gift to Centauri Republic. They will hand the Centauri the entire Narn Empire on a silver platter. All they ask of Londo is to be their spokesman and to act on their behalf. Wasn't that Morton's job? operate from the shadows.

[44:58] Although, so I think what it turned into is Morden is their spokesperson. Londo is their right hand. Londo's their government puppet master that Morden never would be. Couldn't be. But Morden was the spokesman. So I think that would be a question I'd want to have for JMS is, was Morden a part of this original? I mean, I know he didn't put it in here, but was Morden a part of the original plan? And what would have there been a difference between the two jobs? Like was Morden specifically a recruiter for Londo and Londo was going to be the voice box in the spokes, but that might be more it more than spot specifically was go find Londo, go find the spokesperson. That's probably kind of a John the Baptist to Jesus sort of thing. Right. Yeah. He comes before. I think that in the change in Londo's character though, from being complicit in working with the shadows to being more manipulated and rolling along, they had to pull that spokesperson part away from him. Although he still very much spoke for them, but he spoke for the Centauri for them without knowing he was speaking for them. I was going to say there's probably a lot of places where Londo did speak for the shadows. He just didn't realize that's who he was speaking for. He just thought he was speaking for the Centauri. Yeah. And that's just how they're being manipulated. Yeah.

[46:12] Londo agrees, and shortly, a massive fleet appears out of nowhere near the Narn homeworld. Before anyone can respond, the attack is on. The homeworld is decimated, its fleets destroyed. The planet is rendered totally helpless for a second wave of Centauri ships, which makes the rubble bounce a little with their own attack, and then take over the place. All the Narns know is that a fleet of black ships came out of nowhere, and that was the end for them. This is the worst possible news for Jakar, who comes within an inch of killing Londo before being separated by station security. He insists that despite the Centauri invasion, he still represents his people, and must be allowed to speak for them in exile. Probably when andres got to was his greatest speeches ever is now a centauri protectorate, he insists that the centauri came in at the request of non-moderates who feared that their leaders were planning a massive war against all of the other governments jakar is allowed to remain boy we've seen this recently haven't we yeah one country invading another country and then the line is is oh well they asked us to come in right this particular group of people wanted us to come in We've literally just seen this in the world A couple mirrors We might be about to see it again.

[47:37] Ain't on Babylon 5 as ambassador without portfolio. He hopes to use his position to rally support for his people. But their violent ways tend to preclude the possibility of anyone coming to their assistance now. They've burned too many bridges. Just got to say, freaking Natoth.

[47:57] I had to put her in, man. Yeah. I had to put her in, but violent ways. The violent ways of the Narn. You and I often talk about how the Narn really aren't that violent except for Natoth. You know, exactly. She represents the violent faction of them. They just never show up on Babylon 5. They stay on Homeworld. Yeah. Which, again, I think that's the reason you and I had an idea about who the Narn were is because, and JMS can correct me if I'm wrong, is because that's who he thought they were and that's who they were portrayed. And it took a couple episodes and it kind of got mitigated a little bit as the story went on. Probably influenced majorly by andreas katsulas and and others and just as the as the needs of the story evolve you know yeah i i wonder i think we've speculated on this before but like i'm curious how much of the the changes for londo and jakar how many of them were directly a result of peter and andreas and just their their acting choices and then that influenced back yeah that's a great question it's a great question for the latter half of the third season by the way folks these are questions that like if any of you guys go to a con and jms is there and you want to ask them those questions do it make a video and send it back to us like those are great those are i've got to imagine i'm not i'm listen when you when you're a person who's doing a con you probably get a lot of the same questions again and again.

[49:26] And a lot of those questions probably are sort of these are like I'm patting. I'm patting ourselves on the back here, Jeff. These are the questions that everybody wants to answer. No, I'm not trying to do that. But like, these are some thought provoking questions that I would never have had had I not had this conversation with you and the folks out there commenting to us.

[49:47] So anyway, in the first part of the fourth, Jakar returns to the Narn homeworld to join the underground resistance and fight for his world. Meanwhile londo's position in power is on the rise he is surrounded by flunkies and plenipotentiaries who cater to his whims as he plans the moment when he can return to centauri prime as its leader, It's during this same time, the third, fourth season bridges, that Deline and Sinclair begin to come together. He is nearly destroyed when his lover, Catherine, who we will introduce in season one, is mind-raped and all memory of their relationship is wiped out. The only way he can restore her memory is to do the same thing to her all over again. Put her through what is essentially a mind-rape. That's Catherine, too. And he can't bring himself to do that. It's a very vulnerable moment for him and it's now when delin makes her move, to come together right by the end yeah that is the most sly like delin's walking in like, time for me to make my move it's i've been uh i've been waiting a couple years for this, who is my opening let's go i gotta she's just been mind raped there's my shot to get some of that Hey, baby. Need a shoulder to cry on? Maybe a head bone to wipe those tears with. A head bone? Oh, my God. I can't.

[51:17] But that language, oh, my God, you're super vulnerable. And so this is her time to make her move. Time to slide in, baby, and make her move. What? She's just been waiting on it. She's just been waiting. It's time for me to make my move. Just like, wait, twiddling her thumbs. It's now the moment. Me. Of season four, they are lovers. And Lynn is pregnant with their child. That was quick. A quick aside. You know. In a season one story, the Babylon 5 censors will pick up a disturbance been some distance away from the station, deep in space. Distress calls, scrambled by static, quickly follow. When they investigate, and find that Babylon 4 has reappeared as suddenly and mysteriously as it vanished. It seems to have jumped forward in time. It's phasing in and out of existence, caught between here and its eventual destination, wherever and whenever that is. Sinclair and the rest hurry aboard to try and evacuate the people who were still on board when it originally vanished.

[52:19] During this time, they keep seeing an apparition, a man in a life suit, trying to signal to them. Who it is, we can't tell, because his face and head are covered with a breather unit, and because he keeps phasing in and out of view. They can't quite communicate with him. They barely manage to evacuate everyone before Babylon 4 finally phases out of existence completely, continuing on its journey to the future. At that moment, we, the viewer, see a shot inside the station, as the mysterious figure removes his breather unit, and we see that it is Sinclair, older, his hair white in places, a scar running the length of his face. He is in despair. This again. Wow. This plan, this level of detail with this, I mean, down to the scar in the hair and being older down to the line he's about to say.

[53:16] That's one of the original things that i had in my head yeah that's oh this whole episode like babylon squared was written before they ever turned flip the camera you had to though right like you have to write the backstory to know where you are and you know and here's the thing great stories do this we see this all the time in great literature there's the story that we are doing now but there was also this story that happened a long time ago and as our story is progressing we're discovering that story back there there's one that's the story that shall not be named right by the author who shall not be named you guys know which one i'm talking about that followed that exact same path there's uh honestly babylon five there's one had that where we had to do that uh i i'm failing to think in this moment of all the various examples of that but that's that's great literature yeah that's great storytelling so here's our story and while we're doing our story we're discovering the backstory and by the time you get to the end the two come together come together and make the beginning happen you know so give the beginning i tried to tell them to warn them he says but it happened just the way i remembered it just the way i remembered it then a woman's hand falls on.

[54:34] His shoulder and we hear her say it's time we have to go and with that babylon 4 vanishes again continuing on its way there has to be such a feeling of satisfaction to any writer you know who sits down pen to paper and puts this down and then watch it become especially in this case when it was like such a long time between like the idea the conception and then the actual thing this had to be so satisfying well i just sit there and be like that's what was in my head i'm seeing well i'm seeing what was in my imagination come to life yeah that's awesome i there's a version of this in my head where he's on jms is on set and this is happening and he's crying just like oh my god yes, That'd be so cool.

[55:25] The Shadow Men are revealed physically in Season 4 to be dark, demonic-looking things. But once again, appearances may be deceiving. They have fought for millennia against the influence of the Vorilons, fought to keep worlds free of their meddling. At least, that's their line. And we'll gradually discover that it's true, but only as far as it goes. They have their own agenda one that includes ruling everything in sight it's the line about those who would save us from communism also being quick to save us from democracy and for fascism can we please all of which comes to a season five with the return of also i want to play that quote one more time but before i do i'm just going to say this to all of the people and some of you i'm sure are watching or listening hey stop talking about politics don't bring your politics into this show okay well let's uh what's this only as far as it goes they have their own agenda one that includes ruling everything in sight it's the line about those who would save us from communism also being quick to save us from democracy and for fascism all of which comes to ahead in season 5 with the return of Jakar who reveals Londo's complicity and the Shadow Men intervention.

[56:47] At the same time the Minbari military cast growing ever more worried about the way this is going stage a coup and take control from the Grey Council they order the exile of all council members the death of Sinclair and D'Lynn and a resumption of hostilities against Earth, Londo assumes control of Babylon I gotta tell you man And I like that story idea so much more than Dylan just, and you're not a council anymore. Cause I said, cause stone cold to Lynn said so.

[57:20] Well, she didn't say so. She just went in. I was like, follow me if you want to bust this thing up. And then she walked out and they fought and some of them followed her. Breaks up the, the, the staff and then just takes off. I like that. Yeah. But I, I hear what you're saying. It almost would have been too much like because we already had like as far as battle five there's the shadows which we had just gotten over there's the centauri losing their stuff there's the the minions there's earth you're going to throw them in barry in on top of that as well like i i that almost feels like that just would have been too much narratively speaking of like trying to pull that thread i hear what you're saying i'm also glad that that didn't become a thing in that particular moment of the show that we wound up getting i think we ended up getting the gist of it without the breaking up the council exiling in the two episode civil war arc right which to your point here you get two episodes to do this thing and they end up in the same place yeah as andrew says jeff i hear what you're saying but you're wrong yeah sure okay except except for the fact that like it would be better if delin didn't just randomly do the thing but the council they order the exile of all council members, the death of Sinclair and Deline, and a resumption of hostilities against Earth.

[58:37] Londo assumes control of Babylon 5's sector of space in the name of the Centauri Republic. Earth contests this claim, and we break off relations with the Centauri. Shortly thereafter, a Vorlon ship, massive, hundreds of miles long, containing a large segment of their population, is destroyed by the Shadow Men with londo's help though without his knowledge that it would result in the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents yeah earth is blamed season five ends with an so do i understand that correctly that earth was blamed for the destruction of a hundred mile big forlorn ship yes yes and long and londo londo was complicit in it yeah so that's some good politicking by londo like hey these guys that can't do this thing totally did this thing and it's their fault sure.

[59:32] Earth is blamed. Season 5 ends with an assault on and the destruction of Babylon 5 by the Minbari.

[59:41] Sinclair and D'Alyn managed to escape with their... By the Minbari, not the shadows. Yes, yes. I have seen this again and again and again, that people say that the people that were attacking the station in Babylon squared in that vision of the future, it was the shadows. It was not the shadows. It was... And purposely kept unclear. It was actually the minbari at this yeah that was the big war here at the end of babylon five that it was the minbari who were attacking the station and garibaldi's there with his big a gun going i finally know what i'm here for although i would say in babylon squared it's still left to the viewer's imagination because i could make a case for it being earth force make a case for being the shadows make a case for the minbari in the end i think and i think the road home kind validated it was the shadows yeah well and i mean and nia points out by the time they filmed it they, like so when they filmed it had jms already thought oh that's the shadows instead of the minbari or was it still the minbari at that point when they filmed it i'm not sure yeah i don't know i don't know but the original treatment it was actually minbari yeah newborn child as the station explodes behind them. Oh, hold on. That was a big deal line. Yeah.

[1:01:06] Sinclair and D'Alyn managed to escape with their newborn child as the station explodes behind them. They are now wanted by everyone in the galaxy, it would seem. Katerina makes a really great point in the chat that when Lady Ladera had her vision, was it because the Minbari were going to blow it up the station? Oh. By Earth, which has been given information leading them to believe that he is a traitor. By the ruling Mimbari warrior caste, who want to eliminate what they believe is a threat to their own race. To some extent, by Londo and the Centauri. Because Sinclair knows, or at least suspects, who was truly responsible for the hundreds of thousands of Vorlon deaths. And by the Vorlons for presumably being one of those involved in the conspiracy. This ends the story of Babylon 5.

[1:02:03] Big words spoiler we're not done no with this at all but babylon five so we end up in such a different place in the actual end of babylon five yes and here yes i feel like in a lot of ways this is season three four ish i was gonna say i i gotta tell you um uh spoiler alert to my overall thought this is a very interesting treatment and while while i'm i'm sad for the conditions that forced michael o'hare off the show the change in that character wrought a lot of changes and i think the changes that we got that changed that altered the story we got a better story with what was actually put on screen than this original treatment overall like like i think overall we got a better treatment because i i gotta tell you i'm trying to imagine myself watching investing in the show for five years and we get all the way to the end and babylon 5 just explodes because the minbari are attacking it and that's the resolution i would be very unsatisfied if that was the end of that show yes like the show's not the story's not done it just gets started yeah like you just you didn't stop at day new mall you stopped at climax or you stopped at.

[1:03:24] Rising action or something like i still feel like that's where we are in this story we're not done yet and if if that's where we stopped oh so uh.

[1:03:37] Yeah. Yeah. Andrew in the chat makes the, I was thinking the same thing. He says the treatment has season one pacing, not the actual season two through five. I think of this treatment and I think it's a, I think it's incredibly captivating and fascinating with a disappointing end, but five seasons to tell this story would have been a bit of a, it would have been a slog, maybe not Robert Jordan level slog, but I think it's not enough for five. But that being said to JMS's original question, does the story work as a story? It 100% does. It absolutely does. Especially when you take into account what's going to happen next. Exactly. Because that's still the rest of the story. Like to me, this is all one, the story. Yeah. It's such a good point because this isn't to the end. Yes.

[1:04:22] Quick, quick aside. There is a character that is going to feature very heavily in the next segment. The rest of the show whom we never got in the show at all. Right. We got no analog. this this this actually this was a character in our show we just never saw him at all we we i i couldn't even pull somebody else so quick side i'm i'm trying to figure out how do i how do i, do this and i i realized something that this character is actually the same character from a completely separate franchise and when you think about it it works so y'all enjoy this next a little bit because and and especially this is a nod to jms and people that he would work with uh on a future series uh and your headcanon could be that they took their story from him because i think i think this could be the story okay this could be the story of of uh.

[1:05:26] The child of the one. The ones, the two of the ones, at least, or the ones. Yeah. Anyway, let's jump into it. Okay. I'm nervous, excited, anxious. Should the series prove successful, it would be followed by a spinoff series, Babylon Prime. In brief, Sinclair, Deline, their infant, Garibaldi, and Anarn, a friend or relative of Jakar's who has come to help them. After all, the Narn have no one else left to turn to, and Sinclair tried to. To do what he could in the past for them. Make their way... I think so too. ...to a meeting with the Grey Council, now in exile. Sinclair et al. have no place to go. No home, no resources, nothing. The Grey Council is infuriatingly unconcerned. All of this is in the prophecy, if you know where to look and how to interpret it. Sinclair's line is that it would have been a lot easier if they'd known this beforehand. Yeah. But like all scriptures, they can only be correctly interpreted after it's all taken place. See our earlier comment. What is required now is a base of operations, a beacon of hope. War is raging on all sides. This must be a place where those who want to create peace can come together.

[1:06:42] They are able to pull Babylon 4 forward in time. In this... Wouldn't it be awesome? Instead of calling this Babylon Prime, he called it Babylon 4. So Babylon 5, followed up by its sequel, Babylon 4.

[1:06:58] Is it a prequel? Right, no, it's the next stage in the story. ...of operations, because B-4 was different than B-5 in one respect. It had the capacity for movement. It is also a starship. I didn't know that. Sinclair and Dillon supervised the attempt. They managed to get onto Babylon 4 and sound an alert, hoping to get everyone off the station. Before everyone can evacuate, however, the time field, which is terribly unstable, rips them forward. They manage to stop the process briefly, long enough for the rest to get off the station. We now see the original Babylon 4 appearance from the other side, as our present Sinclair tries to warn his past version of what is to come, again, without success. War Without End. So, one of the stories that we've often heard is War Without End was actually going to be the finale of Babylon 5. Yeah. But according to this, it actually was all the way in Babylon prime. Yeah. Way into it. It wasn't even a part of Babylon five. I got to say, Ian in the chat is great. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations, except for the previous Babylon station. Yeah, right.

[1:08:10] There are other time distortions taking place. This is not something men were meant to do. Sinclair is aging, quickly, as is D'Lynn. They manage to counter most of the effects, though it has shaved years off their lives, and finally return to their own time with Babylon 4 in time, now named Babylon Prime. They take Babylon Prime on a journey to clear Sinclair's name and provide a place for those trying to make peace in a warring galaxy. Constantly i gotta tell you if the whole series was really about just trying to clear sinclair's name yeah i would have been less interested in that i agree you know like really if that's just it just trying to clear his name like if that's an aside fine or but like three episode arc you know or a thing yeah yeah cool but yeah yeah recently on the run from hunters and military assault teams babylon prime is their refuge their sanctuary and when required their worship, At one point, early in their travels, they run across Londo, who is a puppet leader of the Centauri Republic, linked to a creature that reports his every action to the Shadow Men. Under its supervision, he must turn them in, but rebels at a terrible personal cost to help them escape. He deeply regrets all that has happened, and hopes in some way to make up for it. So Londo is always a tragic hero. Always, yeah. Yeah.

[1:09:40] Along the way, they discover one other side effect of their attempt to bring Babylon 4 into the present. The son of Dylan and Sinclair is aging quickly. They are gradually able to stop the aging process, but by then the son is nearly a grown man. They are able to cyberlink into him all of the information a man would need.

[1:10:02] For our audio listeners. Oh yeah, the audio listeners have no idea what's going on right now. Brent chose to show David as the one he's the one Neo he's the one it's Keanu Reeves man, but it makes sense it totally makes sense everything they're describing here is what happens in the matrix the Wyschkowskis ripped off JMS when they made the matrix, oh my god and they worked together later on Sense8 can we take just a second to analyze that because we've since learned how the Wachowskis, the matrix is an allegory for being trans. Really? Yeah. The whole story. Okay. It's actually like when, especially to hear it from them when they tell the story, like it's, it's like, it's very beautiful, but with Babylon five, Babylon five influenced, miles of sci-fi. So your headcanon that this, that Neo is the continuation of all of this continuing that allegory, Brent, I think, I think he nailed it. I'm saying.

[1:11:18] They are able to cyberlink into him all of the information a man would need. But the emotional development is not there. He is as innocent as a child would be. He's innocent. He didn't punch him. He's innocent. Soon the sun becomes a revered symbol, a religious symbol. To others, focus of the prophecy. The boy-man whose birth signals a time when various species would come together, making a new golden age. Consequently, the sun is prey to frequent assassination attempts. Along the line, the sun continues to grow and learn and become something greater than human. Right? The story of Babylon Prime ends with the formation of new alliances and a final great war in which Babylon 4 is a prime player. The Shadow Men are finally conquered. The Minbari are defeated by Earth, which clears Sinclair's name. D'Lynn takes her leave to rejoin the Grey Council, departing from Sinclair's side, possibly forever. Their son takes his place as head of a new alliance, promising peace for the first time.

[1:12:25] He is able to command political and religious leaders in a consortium of power. Doesn't mean it's easy. Sinclair, at this stage of his life, finally retires from the chase, from the long battle. His last scene, the last in the story of Babylon Prime, is as he is left alone as he requested on a green and quiet world otherwise uninhabited, sitting beside the shore fishing what is he jack o'neill i i i that was the first thing i wanted was i wanted jack o'neill the problem is is every time we see jack actually by his lake there's people always with him he's not alone oh yeah but i would have 100 put in uh that thing from jack the only thing i would have loved better with that ending is instead if he added just uh.

[1:13:17] Added five words, him fishing and watching the sunset. Oh, like planting that seed. Yeah. All the way. Yeah. There's some conversation in the chat. Alyssa brought it up. That story of David, I completely agree. That's such a great pull, Brent, to bring the Matrix in and Neo. But it's also really the story of Dune. Yeah. Where, you know. I knew you'd say that. Yeah. Paul and Johnny have, have Lito the second who is innocent and is open to this whole thing and grows and learns these things and become something more than human forming an alliance that destroys and brings everyone together. Sort of a thing.

[1:13:59] Um, I want to talk about this particular shot real quick and JMS. If you're out there, I would love an answer to this. Uh i if you this is a shot and i'm going to try to describe this for our audio listeners this is from war without end part two i want to say it was and what's happening is we're on a white star and uh sheridan and delin are sitting right next to each other and we're actually the camera is in front of sheridan and delin and stuff's happening sinclair is in the background okay and the way they have the shot framed uh stuff's happening and sheridan reaches out his hand and he grabs and and him and delin clasp hands and they kind of like have a moment and and between their arms the shot is like going in between their hands or like in between their arms and focusing and sinclair turns around and looks and smart gives this the smile like a okay.

[1:15:05] And I got the feeling when I saw that shot, Dylan was supposed to be his girl. Right. All along. You know, now they never know in the show that we got, they never had that relationship. No, but Dylan was supposed to be his girl and now she's Sheridan's girl. Right. And I got it. Like, I kind of got to wonder if this particular shot might've even been a little prescribed by JMS. As sort of like a nod of approval. A little Easter egg almost. Like you're taking care of her. You know what I mean? I really wonder if there's that – because the shot is so intentional it seems. And I said earlier that there was – in this show when we did our first watch of War Without End.

[1:15:57] There's this moment where uh sinclair comes down the steps and i forget the exact words he says but he looks at sheridan.

[1:16:04] And he's like hey thanks for taking care of.

[1:16:06] Her and that it was it was almost metaphorical of.

[1:16:10] Like how he's saying to bruce box of how michael harris saying to bruce box lightener thanks for taking care of my show right like like there's that but there's this one who within character like it she never was his girl but the idea was that was going to be as a girl and like i i wonder if that's the this particular shot what this is all about i love that that's such a how did you in the capture here of it too like you can see it like there's a an acceptance there's a longing in in his face as he's you know he's like yeah this is good also i kind of wish i was still a part of that yeah jeff i need you to check something out our friend uh andrew um who i believe sent you the the scripts now he sent you more than i got um he says that in the script book uh jms says that i'm right oh that uh that i need i need you to go find the war without end scripts and i need you to just you don't have to do it right now oh god it's gonna take some time but relay to me and let me know i would love to know exactly what that is okay cool i really would i'd love to know because i haven't seen it yet so anyway all right um that's the video that's it we get all the way to the end he's fishing it ends with him fishing uh by the way trying to find these two shots right here yeah hardest two shots to find of the whole freaking video because just it's so hard to find it's good work I was you're like hey I need to find this video and I found a couple not great ones yeah one person wanted 40 bucks for their videos right yeah um.

[1:17:37] Anyway, that's the video from JMS. Well, the video from us, that's the story from JMS. So before we talk about the content, dude, you did such a great job. Thank you. Really good job. Thank you. You're welcome. If you're an audio listener, we love you listening to us on an audio thing. Go to YouTube and watch the video.

[1:17:57] You watch this. We'll put this video out as a solo video. It'll go out as a solo video for sure. And I want this video out for the fandom. Like because people will come watch less listen to us yeah some of them a lot of people will watch just that video totally and not worry about what you and i have to say like and it'll be the video it won't be you and i talking about it and pausing it and making it last making a 22 minute video last an hour yeah like you know or or so so and then i i'm seeing all the comments in the chat room thank you uh everybody over there i i appreciate it um and andrew says actually jms mentions me in the book since we're time travelers of course yeah yeah i'm glad we finally got our do at least 40 of the good stuff that came in the final product was thanks you're welcome you're welcome um jeff i actually have quite a few notes that i just kind of stopped talking okay i have several notes of things that were pointed out that i'd love to kind of go through okay let's let's hit it all right um by the way i didn't realize this until we were watching it there's actually a paragraph missing out of the video what was there and i'm not i'm not sure why yeah it's missing uh there was a whole paragraph about um garibaldi oh you're right and it it just completely uh i'm not i i don't know how it got missed in our recording of this and i found this i apologize for that happening i found this fascinating so some of the um the legend that has been told.

[1:19:25] Was that jms kind of did the drinking going back to his drinking as an at jerry doyle yeah Sort of a thing. But this paragraph makes me think otherwise. Well, I think it's probably, I think, well, anyway, here's what the paragraph says. It says also during the season three and four bridge, Garibaldi will begin to slip back into his drinking problem, which this was actually the season four, five bridge with what the show that we got. It will cause him to throw down his badge and resign as chief of Babylon five security for most of season four coming. Oh, actually, this does happen in season four. coming back only at the very end of that season when he is needed most in other words he's han solo right in the intervening period he will be a mercenary for hire operating out of the b5 bazaar the bazaar the czar not the zocalo i like that they went the czar right right um so anyway so i apologize for that missing out of the video i don't know that i'll be able to go back and insert it. We'll see. Um, actually I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to really try to make it a point. I'm going to, I'm going to call the guy and say, Hey, you missed this paragraph. Um, anyway, uh.

[1:20:38] But I had that note Garibaldi had a drinking problem in the original treatment. But JMS also said that he put that in because he was trying to send a message to Doyle in real life. I wonder if maybe he hit it a lot harder than he would have otherwise because of of Jerry's personal drinking problem. Yeah. So. Yeah, because I mean, a lot of this is really what happened with Garibaldi. He left. Yeah. And then he was art. He was kind of a mercenary, except he wasn't going off like doing fighting. And he was you know searching for stuff but exactly exactly um a couple other other pieces we had here uh you know in the show what we got in the show was the death of one vorlon caution oranic sent the entire vorlon species into a tailspin yeah like the the vorlon were just pretty straight and every person until one of their own died and then they all hands on Ape shit. Yeah. In the original treatment, however, it was the death of over a hundred thousand of them. Yes. That, uh, and, and then they blamed earth for it. And were defined as the loss of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Yeah. It's a very different impression than what we got at the Moralon. Right. Right.

[1:22:01] Um, so I, I thought that was, that was a super interesting change. Uh between the two uh but as as as kosh to electro boogaloo says or maybe the first one does we're all kosh oh you know what i wonder if that's kind of the little touchstone on that oh maybe yeah you know speaking of which one of the things i don't think we've talked about this a whole lot on the show when we went through that whole process do you remember all the people on our discord uh channel like they all changed their name to kosh yeah we just had like like, a hundred people is just cosh cosh cosh cosh cosh cosh it's like what are you guys doing like we didn't know what was happening at the time so shout out to to you guys over on discord um.

[1:22:50] But Lorian, Lorian was not in this treatment at all. There really wasn't discussion of first ones or anything like that. Yeah. Now that's not to say that they wouldn't have like, here's the thing. I think we've got to be careful of, of saying if Michael here at state, this is the show we would have gotten. No, that's not necessarily true either.

[1:23:08] I think we even see from episode one of, from the gathering through Chrysalis, there's changes dramatic changes to, to some of the, some of these storylines. So it's not necessarily going to have been but if if this had been the one uh we we didn't get any mention of lorian he could have still become a thing yeah psychor i think would have actually been an even bigger had a bigger role than they wound up having yeah because they're talking about pulling all the strings in the government where in this we in the final we saw them moving towards that to your to your point this is seven pages yeah of a 10 year story arc you're right so there's a lot that's not in there yeah let's let's be careful about uh it pontificating i guess to to uh being too critical yeah of a of a thing that is you know this was the treatment just to see if the overall here's a question let's let's start with here jms had a goal to see if the story worked as a story yep it does it does the story worked as a story congratulations like your mission god that sounds way way more crappy than i mean for it too congratulations it worked hey your idea holds water you're a good storyteller i need to pause and look at our patreon chat really quick okay they are all kosh they're all turning into kosh that's awesome.

[1:24:31] You guys you guys make me laugh so i love you guys so much um okay let's talk a little bit about the battle on prime storyline.

[1:24:45] As i make a little change in my note here real quick um so the the the key characters was it was sinclair delin the offspring garrida baldi and an army here's the way i initially he said a narn i kind of got the idea that it was all of the narn oh really like the well like because narn got destroyed this would be like all the narn who have been displaced and so their army is the narn oh yeah you know what i mean like that that would have been i don't think that that's necessarily what jms was getting at i'm just saying in my head as i read it the first time i was like that's where i thought this was going was the station is now the home of.

[1:25:30] Basically all the remaining narn in the universe to to go be their army i read it very much like it's talon wait as in the video it was just long yeah yeah uh so here's the thing babylon 4 was supposed to be a starship that could move around yeah that's fascinating the whole thing about setting this on a station for babylon 5 was it saves money because you can use standing sets and you don't have to keep building new stuff right if the show had been a success and they got picked up i wonder how much more money he was planning on getting they spend a lot of money on this because now you're going to go travel to other places other places and times right well i mean that's what crusade was in many ways was a ship traveling right so uh.

[1:26:20] You you have a book in your hand there oh i'm just following along oh okay okay i got you um.

[1:26:27] So the old Sinclair that we got wasn't really that old. No, he wasn't actually an old Sinclair. He was aged because of time shenanigans. Right. And that's actually how. So the explanation into dream in the city of sorrows, that's what happened to him. He got the scar and aged because he and two other Rangers, one Catherine Sakai, one Marcus, and I can't remember Marcus's last name, but just Marcus is enough. Um went out to back to the time thing because the drazi i don't the drazi but the drak were messing with the time portal essentially the shadows and the drak um messing with the time portal there so they went to go try and disrupt that destroy the shadow device that was holding stuff and making things happen and in that he got aged and then when a certain ship blew up, shrapnel hit him in the face shrapnel yeah i'm not gonna say exactly what happened because it's kind of a big deal thing marcus cole thank you nia i can't believe i forgot that there you go shame on me i was just right his name is marcus aiken over and over so yeah so we get a fully grown david and i'm gonna just i'm gonna call him david because that was the name of the child between sheridan and dylan yeah right and we don't know that that would have been his name then uh neo neo yeah he he has the body and knowledge of a grown man but the emotional.

[1:27:54] Innocence of a two-year-old effectively yeah right is is what he says alia of the knife, i'm not sure that i fully see what jms's vision was for that like a fully grown man acting like a child basically uh we're talking about sheldon cooper from big bang theory maybe except without the snark i almost think of it as like he wants that uh i don't know have you ever met a two-year-old old Jeff. It's a good point. But, but I think he was looking for like just that, uh, the innocence and curiosity, you know, like awkward social situations essentially. Yeah. Would be the storytelling device. There you go. Um, so David would be able to combine political and religious leaders to control them. He would be able to control political and religious leaders because of who he is. We're getting really close to absolute power here. Oh yeah. An absolute power corrupts absolutely is his saving grace the fact that he's a kid and he's innocent oh that could be the whole point right like because otherwise i feel like that could go bad real quick like real real quick it's very it's it is very much to to the earlier points this is the story of god emperor of dune um.

[1:29:08] I like the story of Londo Malari a lot better. A lot of times we say Babylon 5 is actually the story of Londo. I hear people say that quite a bit. All right. So here we go. In the end, and after this, I want to talk about the Vorlon and Shadows. Yeah. So be prepared. Be prepared. In the end, the Mimbari are effectively gone. Yes. Or whatever they are. Okay. Sinclair and Delenn split up. dylan leaves sinclair's side to go do the council and says she may never see him again that's a little weird the narner decimated the centaurion control but they themselves are shadow controlled the psychor is still around controlling earth the shadows are finished but the vorlon are possibly still around it was interesting that was interesting david has consolidated power over everyone but he's bringing peace yeah that's where we wind up at the end of the show like it's interesting to me that it pointed out the shadows are defeated and not the vorlon although not say anything about the vorlon being defeated i wonder outside of they got blown up that's what i wonder if it was kind of a almost an extinction level event and took them wiped wiped them out of the out of the story but yeah that's that's the story of babylon five to prime david is hercesis Brent says, I saw that in the chat, you know what that means?

[1:30:38] Um, uh, yeah, so very interesting, uh, original idea for where they were going with everything and what would have happened. I even love the fact that he had a plan for, uh, Hey, listen, if this works out, here's where I'm going next. Totally. Yeah. Cause the story is not done. Here's part two to the story. What a great sales pitch too. Hey, buy this thing from me. And you have up to 10 years of programming. Exactly. Exactly. And if it doesn't work, then we'll cut it short and I'll wrap it up. Exactly. Uh, turns out I can do it in four if I have to. Right. um all the all the londo getting a keeper and all that kind of stuff that girl gets pushed to babylon prime that's not a part of our original babylon five story um so that was that was very interesting all right you said here and i i note that jms says the shadows are defeated but he doesn't mention the borlons let's have the conversation in its full authority that we have here at at bad nerds and for the first times and all this sort of stuff all right, the question is are the vorlons good and are the shadows evil and if so to what degree, now i will take the place and i will take the argument that while they are not the.

[1:31:51] Altruistic benevolent angels of deity that that they may appear to be the vorlons are still not evil okay and i know a lot of people are jumping oh they're they're they're just so bad because they're using and the shadows are still evil okay the shadows are evil and they are wrong that is the position i am going to take.

[1:32:14] Jeff, where are you? Just so we know. I am in the position of there's the yin and there's the yang. Neither is good. Neither is bad. They are both two extreme sides of the spectrum. See, here's the thing. All right. And this is more falling back a little bit more on stuff that we got in the show. Also backed up by what JMS puts in his treatment for the show. Okay. The the basic ideas they have differing ideas of how to push civilization along yeah right the vorlon say you do it through art and poetry and culture and the the shadows say no it's through war and survival of the fittest and that way so i disagree i disagree with the vorlon assessment i think they say you do it through order and homogenization and in a very ordered, specific path step one step two step three where the shadows you're right they're more about survival of the fittest yeah conflict creates growth things like that.

[1:33:23] I think i i don't think it's that but i could be wrong and maybe you're right but regardless Regardless, here is the line. Let me read it from the thing here. I should find it in here. I don't even have to read it from the thing here because it says, talking about the shadows, they have their own agenda that includes ruling everything in sight. That is never said about the Vorlon. Oh, no. I disagree with that.

[1:34:00] Oh look it up the vorlon are not trying to rule everybody for their own purposes they are not trying to be the kings they are trying to help, people along. Now I agree with JMS. They might be right. They might not be right. It might not be the right path. It might not be the path that you want to take, but, but they are doing it from a spot of trying to help you. Here's the thing. Okay.

[1:34:29] As a parent, and it's one of the reasons why I put the shot of, of Franklin and his dad in there when they talked about, you know, it may not always be the right thing. As a parent, listen, I am trying to help my kid become a better human being. I'm not trying to raise a kid. I'm trying to raise an adult. Does that make sense?

[1:34:48] And I am teaching my kids certain ways of thinking and certain ways of being. And that's different from the way you're teaching your children, Jude, Jeff, whatever the heck your name is, which is different from the way other people do. And that's not to say that my way is better than your way or anything like that this is how i'm doing it okay but the point is i'm doing to my children what the vorlon are trying to do to the rest of creation out there yeah versus what the shadows are trying to do which is to come in and rule and lord over and subjugate everybody so i read from the book here as well yes a propensity the vorlons have a propensity for mucking about sure they have an attitude of we know best and have been to various extents they are the puppet masters pulling the strings here and there for millennia creating what they consider to be the right context for civilizations sure creating what they consider to be the right context for the same thing the shadows are doing yeah i don't think it's what they think is the best context yeah but but but But it's not about them being in power.

[1:35:59] It's not about them being in control. It's allowing those cultures and those societies to grow and develop according to the way that we think they should grow and develop. But we're still going to let them grow and develop. And if they don't, as Kosh said, you know, well, hey, who should go away? Who who's whatever? Is it the Narn or the Centauri? And he goes, yes, because if they're not, then they should we should just allow them to die. Right. And that's allowing them to die. That's not killing them. Now, Deathwalker was a different situation versus the shadows will come in and take you out if you're not doing what they want you to do. The shadows are an imminent threat to your, to your life. The Vorlons are just trying to control what you do with your life. And I know that might be a fine, subtle difference, but I think there's, I don't think the Vorlon are, that's what I'm saying. I'm not, and don't hear me wrong. I'm not saying that the Vorlons are altruistic and that they're benevolent and that they're good. What I'm saying is the Vorlons are not evil. And I think the shadows are still evil.

[1:37:03] Are you familiar with uh orwell's 1984 uh somewhat familiar i've not read it but i'm okay i'm i'm i've read the cliff notes versions any of any of ayn rand's stuff anthem okay so i feel like i would say that the shadows are going to come in and they're going to just blow stuff up, actually let me rephrase that they're going to come in and have other people blow your stuff up right they manipulate and they move things they might come do some of it the vorlons are going to create a world like 1984, like the world in Ayn Rand's anthem, where everyone does what we think they should do. Uh, what was they say in rush 21, 12, a second part temples of syrinx. We've taken care of everything. The words you hear, the songs you sing, the pictures that are placard to your wall, like that's the Vorlons. We're going to come in and we're not going to do it, but we're going to make sure you do it. So it's everything that we want. One is immediate and violent. The other can last millennia and be insidious and disgusting and take all of your individuality away.

[1:38:14] I think they're both awful and great. And I think the message is we need both. And Trey has brought this up a number of times, one of our council chambers members. It's not one or the other it's shades of both yeah but i and and i i'm i hear that and i'm with you except to say that the shade of the shadows is a whole lot darker to me than the shade of the boy oh man i don't know they're a lot further on the black scale than they are in the gray scale to me i almost feel like i would rather get blowed up than be subjugated for generations i mean there's hope at the end of that one right maybe you know you.

[1:38:56] But that's the thing is, and again, I feel like we're circling the drain here because you and I clearly have different ideas of what the Vorlon goal and what their method for going about is different. So where I'm coming from and my thought process is different from where you're coming from and your thought process because we just understand those two differently, and that's okay. But the vorlon again the i don't get the idea that the vorlon are inherently evil right as much as they're just trying to control folks and and and they're trying to make people become a thing that they may not necessarily need to become and that is something by the way that we should avoid that we should not i'm not saying we should be like the vorlon okay in fact don't be like the vorlon don't don't do that i'm not saying do that in fact jeff i think well hold on i have to say this, can we put a pin in this particular conversation come back to it in just a second yeah because i gotta finish this other conversation delin let's talk about the link oh yeah you warned me about this oh my word okay so delin her whole job his whole job is to come onto the station and go So you're either it or you're not. And if you are, I'm going to turn into a girl and we're going to have a baby together. So save my race or I'm going to kill you. Yeah. One or the other. And they go path a.

[1:40:25] And Dylan lies in wait until the current girl is put asunder. Her now i have all questions all sorts of questions about the mind rape and what happened there because we know the mambari have their own telepaths right just saying it could have happened that way not saying it did it could have and she slid in like a snake yeah oh and then when she had him in her grass and she got the seed and she had a baby and this thing was there she left takes off nope i might never see you again deuces right there's no love there's no honor there's oh that is awful it's horrible that is awful flipping that with one of the one of the most earned romances in sci-fi between sheridan and delenn say it again jeff one of the most earned romances in sci-fi stop one of the most earned romances in all of television history okay yeah i'm not gonna is that of sheridan and delin you're absolutely right, But the other relationship. No, no. That's not good. That's not good.

[1:41:49] Okay. The other relationship is why we have a family law system in this country.

[1:41:57] Okay. Let's go back to the pen. The whole thing about the Borlawn in the shadows. I think this brings us to this particular part of the show, Jeff. Okay. Where we examine for messages. Now, I got three very specific messages from JMS in this specific storyline.

[1:42:18] Here's the first one that I got. Appearances can be deceiving. What someone else wants for your life may not be what you want or what is necessarily correct. That is literally the line about the four lines. Right, right there. And that's 100% true. As a parent, that is a warning to me that I have to let my kids grow and become their own person. That is not who I think necessarily they should be. Now I can have hopes. That doesn't mean I can't have hopes. I can't have dreams. That doesn't mean any of that sort of stuff. Doesn't mean I can't instill values in them that I hopefully think are correct. But they, at some point are going to have to grapple with the things that I have taught them and go, is what mom and dad said true or false? And what is my value system going to be? And I have to accept that as a parent. Also, we can apply that to bosses, pastors, government leaders, all of the above. Yeah, everyone. That appearances can be deceiving because what someone else wants for your life may not necessarily be what you really want or what is correct. Right.

[1:43:33] I've got a second message, Jeff. Okay. Don't be fascist. There's that, right? Don't be a fascist. That was in the show too. They outright said it. Literally the whole show. Don't be a fascist. Don't. Oh, I want this quote online right now on a plaque. And I need JMS to give me the actual quote so I can quote him because otherwise he's, it doesn't work if I pull it out. It's literally as he has it written here, but it says, don't try to save us from communism, and turn around and try to save us from democracy for the sake of fascism right, you how easy how much is that true people try to save you from communism and in turn save you from democracy you'll never have to vote again yeah it's so simple trust me i'm the one i got this and now you better not dissent or i'll disappear you see our earlier conversation, about politics it's in the show folks i got one more message jeff okay.

[1:44:42] Which this is personal to me uh be wary of prophecies yeah because they can only be correctly interpreted after the fact afterwards say i've been saying that for years so uh those are the messages i got out of this jeff did you have anything on on your side i think i think that last what the fascism one for sure but i think that big thing for me i rang big from his prophecy all of this stuff went down because they disagreed about a prophecy.

[1:45:13] I mean the shadows and all that stuff happened over here on the side but so much of the story was sinclair and delen and it's all because they're like well we think there's this prophecy No, we think it's this. Boom. Conflict. And here he is at the center of that. And turns out it wasn't even them. Right? It was their kid. Who's Neo from the matrix. Yeah. That's the other thing. If you think you're the one, you're probably not. But your kid might be. Yeah, exactly. So make sure you're raising them in a way. Well, it's, it's, it's the star Wars thing, right? Who was the one that the prophecy was about? was it about anakin or was it really about luke well or was it about ray george lucas and his treatment it was about leia, really yeah his sequel would have had it be that leia would actually bring balance to the force becoming i heard that one yeah oh okay interesting interesting.

[1:46:19] Jeff Brent we have a we we usually have a responsibility at this point to place this in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of whatever season of Babylon 5 we're in we do I now I've I have labeled this the 23rd episode of season one yeah okay so I don't know Do we want to place it or do we want to compare it to the overall Babylon 5 story that we got? I was going to say I have a proposal, and that is that we rank Babylon 5 versus the pitch. Okay.

[1:47:00] Can I do this one really quick for you? Let's say it together, right? In 3, 2, 1, Babylon 5. Babylon 5. Yes. Absolutely. Because, listen, we love Babylon 5. It's a phenomenal show. It's it says so much it does it does all the stuff that you and i pontificate on and say that sci-fi should do it's just good tv and it holds up totally holds up it holds up so well and man i know jms i know he's over in london right now as we record this trying to get some stuff going on over there and i know so many people said it but i i hope i know you're not necessarily 100 i would be so interested to know what he does with this on a reboot a true reboot like not telling the story all over again but doing something i'd be so i'd be so so interested to know um.

[1:47:54] But uh yeah so we got such a good show and you know what we wouldn't have had the show that we got had it not been for this right the just the idea this is the story okay let's go back to where we started jms put all this out to show us how a story is crafted and you know what it starts with an idea and you know what here's your lesson here's.

[1:48:20] Your message the story that you get in the end may not necessarily be the same thing as your idea exactly and that's okay because it changes and it evolves and it grows and you never know what's going to happen when you're writing a story jeff i don't know if you've ever written a story but if you're writing a story you can have an idea as a writer of where you want to go and sometimes the characters look at you and say stupid that's not what i say i'm saying this yeah and i'm not walking into that door that you want me into i'm going to go do this other thing because the characters kind of come up to life in your head and they do and i imagine it's the same thing in tv cartagia died veer's hand because veer said he was going to do it that's i mean that's the real babble on five example and yeah what i what i think is we've talked about a little bit the brilliance of jms and that he wrote this in a way to allow it to breathe and allow it to evolve the original the founder of Netflix has this incredible quote that I use often. It's a no business plan survives its first customer.

[1:49:24] That's what happens here. He wrote this in his own mind, went through revisions and stuff, whatever, but it was world according to him. Then it got exposed to reality and it's like, oh, okay, well, we're going to do this. Just, oh, here's some great inspiration. We're going to do this. What it says to me is that Babylon five is a complete and whole idea that was allowed to live and breathe. Oh, say it again, Jeff. That's so good. Say it again. Babylon 5 is a complete and fully formed idea that was allowed to live and breathe. Perfect. And you know what? It takes a master and it takes a person, frankly, with a lot of maturity to allow their work to do that. Maturity and humility. Yeah. A dream taken form. A dream taken form. Ah, yes. Love it. It's so good.

[1:50:17] All right, Jeff. well here we are an hour and 54 minutes on our recording schedule what was going to be our short uh shorter episode yeah yeah exactly um i think that's it i think so that's it for the original treatment we've done our deep dive into the whole thing and we discovered that uh david is neo i think that's the biggest takeaway i'm taking 100 it works it works it works same um next week we're Back at it, though. Babylon 5 for the second time is rolling ahead. We're going to have a new commander of the station. We are. And we're going to have a little bit of a reset, as happens when your series lead especially changes. So we'll go through all of those. Jeff, we've got to listen to our old episodes and recap everything. We're going to dive into the Lurker's Guide and what JMS says about stuff. Um but jeff as we looking as we looking as we are looking ahead to next week's episode points of departure i'm curious.

[1:51:21] You're at this point during our first run do you remember what your prediction was what you thought this episode might be about yeah i i felt like points of departure was going to be about six months into the future uh the points of departure themselves are going to be earth focusing on the changes that president clark has been making the last couple of months thought it was really going to be focused on on the clark stuff what did you think it was going to be about i said um that this is going to be an episode where everybody splits that like because babylon five was like the last best hope for peace where everybody's going to come together so this is the thing where everybody's going to split you know and kind of go their own way like bimbar is going to go that way and the earth is going to go this way and the centauri are going to go that way and the narn are going to go another way and um kind of like from a political the uh all the political alliances is we're going to be broken. They're literally are going to depart from each other. Cause eventually how do you come together? If you haven't gone apart, that's a good point. You know what I mean? So yeah, I thought that's what this was going to be about. And it turns out not so much. You're a good guesser, Brent.

[1:52:33] Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate that. Oh man. Well, we're going to find out just how close or how far away we were right here next week. When we watch points of departure, don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching us, listening to us, leave a rating, leave a review, do all of that really great stuff. Please, please share this show in fact if you know someone who loves babble on five but isn't aware of the original five-year arc or the babble on prime piece what an incredible opportunity for you to share this with that fan of babble on five so they can have their eyes opened up to this incredible series so until next time i'm gonna make jeff yeah what's up hey you want to see something cool. Yeah, sure. You sure. Yeah, I know Kung Fu crying out loud.

[1:53:17] Music.