TKO

Brent: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a star Trek podcast. My name is Brent Allen and I am watching Babylon five for the first time. And my name is Brent Allen, and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time. That's right. That's that's not a glitch in your stereo system out there, folks.

This is how it is. That's right. It's just me because Jeff is recovering from having his skull ground into powder. Like I told him I would do last week. Cause he won't stop saying that stupid phrase at the end of the show. So with that, it's just me today. I am one veteran star Trek. I am one veteran star Trek, podcaster watching babble on five for the very first time I'm searching for star Trek, like messages in the series.

I'm applying that analytical filter I've gained as a star Trek podcaster to this show babble on five to really dig deep and see what the show is really about. See what messages and morals it has for us. See how it's holding up a mirror. Is it giving us a, a hope for the future and what's it doing and trying to decide if maybe I should have, you know, watched it soon.

Jeff: Hey. Hey. Hey Brent. Hey, 

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: it going? Hey, listen. Um, sorry for sorry for just cutting in like that about last week,

you know, the whole, the whole ending thing or whatever. Look, I thought it over. That was my screw up, man. I always did have too much mouth. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I won't do it anymore. Can I, can I sit 

Brent: Sure man. It's cool. We're we're good. Uh, listen, I was just about to do the thing about the game. Why don't you take it from here? 

Jeff: which game? How far were 

Brent: Huh? The, the three references to star Trek. 

Jeff: Okay. Okay, cool. Cause we have a couple games, 

Brent: It's 

Jeff: I wanted to be clear, but I, I think Brent was probably just saying is that we are some veteran star Trek podcasters. We watch a lot of star Trek. We're probably gonna make star Trek references coming into here. So we each have a limit.

We can each have up to three and we hit one of those. You're gonna hear the buzzer. And after that, no ma star Trek for us, but that starts now, but it ends when we go back and decide, you know, if we feel this has a star Trek quality to it or not. Hey Brent, I, did you share any of the cool stuff yet? Uh, that we've gotten from our incredible community. 

Brent: Not yet, man. Why? Why don't you go for it?

Jeff: All right. So, Hey, I love, this is like my favorite part of the show. We spend so much time interacting with you. It's the, the best part of everything. Well, there are times where my favorite part of this is watching the episode at babble on five. This is one of those times. I also really love sharing messages and stuff that you have shared with us.

We have a website, Babylon, five.com, the number five, the word first.com and Lauren sent us a message through that website. That's an email that comes through to us in that email. She shared a thing with us called the Luer guide, which is a spoiler free recommended viewing order. She said, there's some other stuff in there too.

I'm staying away from all of that, but she also wrote thank you to yourself and Brett for producing this wonderful podcast. I cannot stress how much fun has been for my spouse and I to listen to the two of you, analyze the story and start connecting the dots. Although I would possibly never dream of telling you which dots 

Brent: Lauren, we're gonna connect some dots today. I promise you

Jeff: that we are. If you're listening to this on, uh, your podcast app, thank you so much. We love it. We also have a YouTube and that's where you get to see Brent and I looking awesome. Talking about Babylon five. I mean, who wouldn't wanna see that? Right.

Brent: that you also get to

Jeff: And who 

Brent: sets that we have behind 

Jeff: right. We actually, you. yeah, we've talked about it before.

You've got a great looking set 

Brent: Thank you. I mean, you've got some pretty cool posters. The Justin Bieber would notwithstanding you've got some really cool posters. Hm.

Jeff: Justin was a really good drummer when he was like four, watch the documentary. He'll get. But on YouTube, not only do you get to see us, you have, you'll get to be a part of an incredible community. We have a grow rapidly growing community. There, incredible conversations that are happening. And I want to take one from way back a little ways.

Uh, Jan Anderson commented on mind war here recently. And Jan.

says, Jeff, as Jeff at one of your comments, I laughed loud because you were so close to something. I'm not saying more because spoilers, same thing, something Bretts, Bretts. Oh, I'm gonna read That whole thing over again. Here you go. YouTube. Jeff, at one of your comments, I laughed loud because you were so close to something.

I'm not saying more because spoilers, same thing, something Brent said made me chuckle again. I'm not saying anymore, so much fun to see where you are spot on and where you are not after all. It's the first time. 

Brent: is exactly the point of this show for Jeff and I to experience this show for the first time as spoiler free as we could possibly be. And to let all of you good, lovely folk out there. Laugh. You're ever loving socks off at us the entire time. And honestly, kind of get to relive it, I guess, a little bit, uh, you know, cause you can only watch something for the first time once, right?

And now you get to get to see it again through these eyes and, and see what predictions we make and don't make and figure out what we do. So, Jan, thank you so much. Thanks for listening and watching

Jeff: So talk to us on Twitter at Babylon. First, send us a message through our website. Join the growing community community on YouTube, or send us a five star review through apple podcasts, audible, anywhere you can do that pod chaser. And we'll share that right here on the show. 

Brent: Jeff I'll even hold on. Jeff. I'll even take the non five star reviews. I mean, I prefer the five star 

Jeff: Oh, heck yes. 

Brent: but I'll take the non Fivestar reviews too. Like if you want to leave us one like that, that's fine. We might make fun of you for doing it or not, but you can you can do however you want 

Jeff: honestly, let's be fair, right? We might make fun of you. We might also take any feedback you have very seriously, right. And apply that or consider it. At least 

Brent: We,

might 

Jeff: we might

we'll consider it. I will say what we will consider 

Brent: it's true. We will consider it. Yeah.

Jeff: and considering things let's talk about TKO episode 13. Now the other game we play is we only know the title of the next episode we're gonna watch. And so we guess what we think it's gonna be about based on the title alone. Brent, do you remember what you thought TKO was gonna be about? 

Brent: I said, this was going to be, uh, the, the inspiration for Voyager's boxing episode. This was gonna be a boxer episode and man, oh man. Was I right? I'm like it had to be, how could it not be anything about TKO? I was trying to figure out how it related to Ava's storyline in this one. You might be able to stretch and pull it, but I mean, look, it was a fun episode and it was right there.

So I got it called it.

Jeff: Yeah, You nailed it. This is so good. I missed it by a long shot. My official guess was gonna be something about drugs and I, well, you know, I missed it by a long shot, except for that little scene where they talked about the slappers and the drugs out of the med bay, that was literally, literally just like there to fill some time or whatever.

But I hoped, I was hoping it was gonna be exactly what it was. And that's like some almost underground mixed martial arts, combat sports kind of thing. And, well, Brent, your official guest nailed it. Mine was off by a little ways, but listen. If it's been a while, since you've seen this episode, maybe you've never seen it before.

You're watching along with us for the first time. We're gonna tell you what it was about. Give you a little reminder, Brent, why don't you tell everybody what TKO is about? 

Brent: Well guys, you know, it just wouldn't be an episode of Babylon five. If we didn't start with some new people arriving at the station. Usually they're the shady, bad guy of the episode. But in this one, they seem like two guys that are pretty jovial and friendly. One of them is Walker Smith, a boxer, and an old friend of Garabaldi.

And the other is Ivan Nova's personal rabbi from when she was younger. Wharf's baby daddy,

actually, I guess it's not Wolff's baby daddy. It's Wolff's daddy 

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, really? 

Brent: yeah, fix that. Here you go. Jeff. Whaf daddy Wharf. Daddy, you can edit that. All 

Jeff: that's a good drop. 

Brent: All right. Well, let's talk about Walker first. He was an up and coming boxer who had just earned his first shot at the title, but the company had too much money invested in the current champ.

So when he refused to throw his shot, yes, that's a Hamilton reference folks. Oh, oh, I messed it up. Oh. So when he refused to throw away his shot, yes, that's a Hamilton reference folks. They 86, his career. And now he's on babble on five to fight in what I can only describe as mortal combat and space, but the master Muai guy says no way Jose, but that doesn't stop Walker.

As he issues a challenge straight to the champion, which is accepted cue the training montage and mix in a little blow up between Walker and Garabaldi, which a quick apology cures and in the fight Walker holds his own and brings the match all the way to a draw, which causes the Muta do to accept him into their ranks.

So mission accomplished. And there's that part of the episode. Now, as for rabbi WARF, daddy, he's here to deliver Ivan Nova's inheritance from her dad who passed away several episodes ago. When the rabbi finds out that Ivanova, hasn't sat in Sheva yet, which is a sort of Jewish morning ceremony, at least according to the show, he begins to metal because that's what rabbis do.

And that causes Ivanova to lose her crap on him. After some contemplation, she also apologizes and admits that the real reason she hasn't done so yet is because she still hasn't forgiven her father for all the crap that he put her through. Well, rabbi, well, rabbi Wolf, daddy tells her that without forgiveness, you can't mourn and without mourning, you can't let go.

So she agrees and they do the thing. Oddly, while that big fight is happening elsewhere with Walker, and we see it bring Ivanova to a spot of grief and mourning over the loss of her estranged father. But when it's all over, she seems a lot better. And that's pretty much where it all ended. Jeff. And it felt good.

It was a good episode. Jeff, what did you think of this episode? TKO having watched it for the very first time. Oh,

Jeff: Well, first off, this is the episode from a couple episodes ago where the yum yum podcast sent us a gift of a guy giving us a thumbs up. That was from this episode, that was Walker Smith. Yeah. I was walking outta the bar, gives the thumbs up. So that's kind of cool. 

Brent: you go. 

Jeff: What did I think of this episode, Brent? I think this might be my favorite episode so far.

I, yeah, I, and, and. It might be like recency biased. Like I, I literally watched it like 90 minutes ago. I finished it. And, but I, I loved everything about this episode. There was a theme that carried both of the stories through in, in this. And I think it was really really, really well done. I'll talk about that in my closing comments, but I I loved the Muai, so I don't know if we've talked about this on the podcast before, but I've got a history in combat sports.

I used to work in professional wrestling. I've been a broadcaster for, for boxing, MIS mixed martial arts and, and mostly pro wrestling, but oh, I love, I love my combat sports and I loved the Muai. I, I would've loved it a little more if it was a little more Cuma mate, but this is network TV in the mid nineties.

So, so I get it. I liked about the Muai though, that. they talked about the Moari and I'm pretty sure the Moari weren't a species. I think the Moari is like a culture. Like ninjas or samurai IIE. Doka kind of a thing. I think that was really neat. I did, I absolutely loved rabbi, uh, Yael, rabbi, rabbi Yael.

Wolff's

Brent: mm-hmm mm-hmm yep.

Jeff: And there, I, I thought he was a, I don't think so. I was iffy on touch and I think I'm 

Brent: gonna, I'm gonna give it back to you. I'm gonna give it back to you. I'm gonna UNR it. There you go.

Jeff: But what I liked, there's a lot. I liked about him. We can talk in here, but I think, I think that he was a refreshing take on how Jewish people are portrayed in sci-fi specifically.

I dunno. I really thought it was great. I loved this episode. Brent, what did you, what did you think? 

Brent: Um, I realized after watching, uh, this particular episode and I really hope I'm not being offensive when I say this, cuz I don't mean it to be, I actually mean it to be very praising. I want a rabbi. Like I want this guy in my life. Like I like, I feel like I need him now. I'm not Jewish. I don't know what the rules for that are.

But like, like I would go talk to this guy, like I would go take my crap to this guy and be like, yo, can you help me out? Like give me advice because I want everything you're dishing out. I want you to metal in places where I'm being stupid about. I want you to bring me to that spot. Like, like this guy is exactly what a spiritual leader should be.

He's not somebody lording it over or standing in a pulpit. He's literally sitting on your couch right next to you in the midst of it with you, he's traveling across the galaxy to get to you to help you through your stuff. He wasn't there to deliver her inheritance. He was there to help her. He didn't even know why he was there to help her, but he knew that he was there.

He figured it out. Once he got there, like that's the type of a person that I want in my life. That's the type of person that honestly, that I hope that I can be to other people sometimes. You know what I mean? 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Overall, I wouldn't say this is my favorite episode. I still I've gotta go back to that one that was written by DC fan Fontana.

Like I loved that episode. Uh, was that war? Prayer, I think it was. 

Jeff: The war prayer. 

Brent: Yeah. Um, but this one's up there. This one's definitely up there. This was a lot of fun. It was a good fun episode. It was simple. Yet beautifully complex. This is one of those apparently rare Babylon five episodes where the, a plot and B plot were the exact same theme.

And, and I'm gonna call, I we've talked about it already a few times here, this theme of forgiveness, 

Jeff: Mm-hmm 

Brent: ran from, from GU Baldy. We saw it, we saw it with Kara Baldy. We saw it with Walker. We saw it with the rabbi. We saw it with Ivan Nova. We saw it with Sinclair. We saw it all throughout and we saw how it, uh, it impacts stuff like it was such a great theme.

Absolutely. And, and we'll talk more about that in the specifics of that, as we get into our closing thoughts, but overall, Jeff, I really, really enjoyed this episode. And like, it's hard not to compare this episode to that Voyager episode where Chite is boxing in his dreams, because they're both boxing episodes, you know,

Jeff: Yeah, but I think they're, I think they're very, very 

Brent: Very different episodes, but on the sheer, like it's a boxing episode. This is what it should have been. And this one came before that one. So they should have watched this episode when they were writing that one and gotten 

Jeff: one of the things I love AB. One of the things I love about pro wrestling is that it, it tells very simple stories, but it tells stories that are universally like accepted and understood, and it tells them through the universally understood and accepted language of violence. Like there's a real language there.

And that's, I think that's what that Voyager episode was thinking. It was gonna do. That's what this episode did. It told a complete story in that fight, in that fight between Walker and, uh, and Geor, like there was a complete story that happened there and it was just, Oh it was really, and it, I mean, I, I use it like a, I don't know, like an excuse or something a cop out, but like for network TV, this was so well done. Like it was violent. It was bloody Geor had that white blood that was coming down, even Walker had the eye, the eye swell shut makeup was so good. In this. Oh, that that whole, that whole match was fantastic. 

Brent: yeah, yeah. Let's, let's, let's dial in. Um, cuz I think this is one of those clear times. Our conversation can focus on each story. Um, so let's just take him one by one. Let's take Walker's story and go through that. Um, so Walker comes in. I didn't hate this guy, you know, like sometimes you get the guy from the past coming in.

You're like, dude, I don't like you at all. I don't want you around, like I liked this guy, you know, uh, he comes in, he had a, he had a. Real story. I, I just read a story about a, uh, she's a, a Hollywood child, like a second, or th other she's a third generation child in Hollywood. And her grandmother had her entire career railroaded by a very famous director.

And I don't want, I don't wanna put that Juju out there, but like, like, it was very well known that she just had her whole career just jumped by this guy because she didn't do something you wanted to do. And I don't remember what it was. I don't think it was anything funny, but, you know, uh, it, it was just, when you talk about the idea that somebody can railroad your career and you know, now these guys talk about, about, uh, framing him for stuff and making him look like he's doing stuff he's not doing.

You know, I used to work very closely with the NFL and. I will never accuse an organization of purposely tanking somebody's, uh, P tests to, you know, like I'm never going to accuse 'em of doing that, but I have seen people get on the wrong side of the organization. I've seen players get on the wrong side of the organization and that guy's looking for a job and it's not in the league.

Jeff: Well, I think, I mean, this WWE told this story, like four years after this in 98, when you had the Helmsley and Stephanie McMan and Vince McMann being the kind of the corporation and in 98 at survivor series, the WWE or at the time WF championship was vacant. They had a big tournament, the rock won and then revealed that he was the corporate champion.

And they had a whole like ongoing storyline where like mankind, who's just like, he was this gross outta shape looking guy. Who's actually just a complete legend in pro wrestling, but he wanted to be champion news, but you can't be the champion, not the, the corporate image that we're looking for. And that whole, if you, and then the rock, it is a great story that happened, but it was that same thing.

You crossed the company and you're done. It doesn't matter how good you are, what you've earned or whatever. You're, they'll find whatever it takes. And here in the Babylon five world, it means doctoring up some urine tests and. Calling you a calling you a cheater and a criminal. 

Brent: mm-hmm mm-hmm so he goes in, he goes to the Mo do I think I said that, right. Or Moda do or something like that. Um, and he's like, Hey, I want to come join you. And they're like, no. And he, they calls them, he calls 'em snake heads and I'm like, I'm looking I'm why are you calling 'em snake heads? Like they kinda had the slits in the nose, but that's about it.

I didn't see a whole lot of snake to it, 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Um,

Jeff: feel like they were just coming up with like, eh, this sounds derogatory. It's uh it's uh, here we go. It's spoon head with the Kardashians. Oh, this sounds derogatory. 

Brent: mm-hmm I had that same thought. Uh, and uh, they say no, which I was like, okay, that's a little racist, but whatever. And there's themes of racism through this, because I mean, that, there's that one dude. Who's like, we're not gonna let you humans come in and take this from us too. This is ours.

And I'm like, who's ours, because it seems like it's a mixed group anyway.

Jeff: That's what I was saying earlier, where I think that's the, uh, you know, it's like being a samurai or an Nike Doka or something where yeah.

Anybody can come, but you have to earn your way here. And they just don't want to give humans a chance to earn, earn their way here. 

Brent: Mm-hmm

Jeff: you know a little bit of trivia here?

I don't know if you're much into boxing or anything, but, uh, Walker Smith. That's uh, sugar, Ray sugar, Ray Robinson. That's his 

Brent: yeah. It's his real name, right? 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew 

Jeff: I thought was pretty, pretty cool. There were a couple times in this episode that. I like had to pause and rewind I'm like, is, did they, is that, and that was, that was one like Walker.

I know Walker. Oh my God. Oh, nice. That, that I thought that was a really cool 

Brent: That'd be like somebody coming in and going Cassius clay. It's like, oh wait, I know who that is. 

Jeff: I know 

Brent: It's not like they like, like, could have reversed the name, like Smith Walker or, you know, like something like,

Jeff: What I, I think most people don't know that, you know what I mean? They, they know sugar. Ray is sugar, not the band sugar Ray, but like the actual legendary fighter. 

Brent: Mm-hmm

Jeff: But I thought, I thought it was a really cool, cool piece. They did one thing that I, I will nitpick in this was the ring they had. 'em fighting in how unpractical is that thing, Right,

Like these little like glass and neon things that, I mean, if he fell into those and they, they were, they had gaps in them

Brent: Mm-hmm

Jeff: and here's where I'm really gonna nerd out. So in professional boxing rings are generally 20 feet by 20 feet. Sometimes as small as 18, sometimes as big as 22, this was a 12 foot by 12.

Fighting space. It's wild that I know that, but when you go to amateur, amateur can be as small as 16 by 16. And in pro wrestling, they often have 14 by 14, but the standard, like if you watch WWE, they're wrestling in a 20 foot by 20 foot ring, just looking at where the people were positioned in there. This was clearly a 12 foot by 12 foot fighting space, which is not adequate for the kind of fighting they're doing here.

That's not enough room. I thought so that, but who cares? They made it work. They had some great camera angles. It was fine. 

Brent: I'm gonna nitpick something for you. The sound effect of every punch and kick. In this episode was killing me. It's like they had one, one sound and the dude was just sitting there with his button and every time they did something, he just hit and it's the same, like, you know, that old gunshot, like from the old sixties, the 

Jeff: Right. Yep. 

Brent: like, no gunshot ever sounds like that ever , you know, it's just 

Jeff: like, let's do that with a PO on it. 

Brent: right, right.

Or like you, you know, some people have a really hard time with, uh, uh, like sitcoms that use laugh tracks and stuff in 'em.

yeah. 

Jeff: I can understand that they have a problem with that. 

Brent: Right. 

Jeff: That just keeps going. Doesn't it 

Brent: it really does. You're gonna have to 

Jeff: yeah, I killed that, thing. 

Brent: but it was, it was killing me in this episode. I was like, come on guys.

Jeff: Couple more, little, little points. Uh, Baldy, Gar Baldy was an incredible Cornerman he? I mean, every everything that he was yelling at him was, was great tactics. It paid off when he actually went to the inside, it made a difference. I thought that was awesome. But Geor, who was the champion at first, I was looking at him and I'm just like, I, I'm not buying this guy as.

As a big martial artist who played him. So I go and I look, and I'm like, no way. This is James Jude, Courtney, that name may not ring a bell for you, unless you're a fan of the Halloween movies that have come out in the last few years. He's Michael Myers. Yeah, In the most recent, uh, Halloween movies, he was actually nominated for best actor by Fangoria in 2019 for, uh, for the Halloween movie that came out just, uh, I think it was in 2018.

This guy's the real deal. He's uh, been a stunt guy. He was in Buffy the vampire Slayer. He's an experienced martial artist. So it, in this one, I'm gonna blame the costing and the makeup for making him not look all that tough. Cuz if you can be like in your mid sixties and play Michael Myers and it's realistic. Yeah.

You are the real deal. 

Brent: I also looked him up and I found him on the Babylon five fandom Wiki page. I would like to read to you verbatim what the Babylon five fandom Wiki. Now these Wiki pages are usually pretty complete where they're born. They're kind of whole life story who they're married to, who they're divorced from who they're married to, again, who they're divorced from again, the names of all their kids, any connections that they have to the show with any guest start, like they're usually pretty replete.

I'm going to read to you buckle in folks. I'm gonna read verbatim what the page says, James Jude. Courtney is an actor.

That's it? The 

Jeff: that's it, it 

Brent: end? That's it. I was like, what? Alrighty. 

Jeff: Wiki. 

Brent: Alright. He's an actor. I thought he was an extra, honestly, maybe he's a stunt coordinator, but Nope, he's an actor. got it. 

Jeff: wow. Well, no good for him. That's great. 

Brent: Got it. Okay. So whatever race he is, their blood really does look like he's doing blow. 

Jeff: Oh, Yeah. Like just all over like total, like, like Scarface, just all over the place. okay. 

Brent: right, right. Um, oh, I noticed a, a Tari in the crowd.

Did you notice him? I only noticed him because of his little bump of hair that he had and I went, oh, he's apparently not that important. 

Jeff: It's a 

Brent: That was my clue. um, GU Baldy. Now, Jeff, I've been on this last couple of episodes. All right. Couple episodes ago we had GU Baldy, the drunk. and they turned around the very next episode and might as well have not even happened.

I loved that. They just referenced it. I didn't need 'em to drill down on it. This is what I've been saying. I didn't need, I don't need a, a complete and total, you know, be plot every episode dealing with this. That's not what I'm asking for. I just want some consistency with the character and when he comes in and they're at the thing, and they're at the, the bar or the restaurant and Walker looks over and is like, dude, is that water you're drinking?

And he is like, yeah, I had to lay off the rocket fuel, you know? And I'm like, thank you. Like it's, it's now a part of his character. Let that be a part of his character 

Jeff: Mm-hmm 

Brent: and not pretend otherwise. So I was, I was incredibly, uh, grateful for that, but also I really want one of those burgers,

Jeff: so thank you. I that's one of the spots I went and like rewind to look back. I'm like, I, I feel like there's nothing on that burger, but I feel like it's perfect. 

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Like, and you guys at YouTube, you're looking at me right now. You're like, yeah. Brent likes food. Yes, I do. I want to try one of these burgers

Jeff: Yeah, sign me up. I'm in 

Brent: right, right. 

Jeff: the tubers are the whatever, like, yeah. I'm, I'll eat that whole thing. 

Brent: absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, Jeff, I have a, I have a question for you. What does this phrase exactly mean stroke off? 

Jeff: This is a family friendly 

Brent: This is a family friendly show, so I'm tossing it to you to answer. Cause I wouldn't be able to do it.

Jeff: uh, if this were like the early to mid eighties and we were in Canada, I would say it's about the same as take off, take off, do the gray white north. Take off somebody out there. Somebody out there hears me. They know what I'm talking about. I hope 

Brent: It's such a weird phrase. 

Jeff: I love. I love when sci-fi tries to be cool and not cool in like a, Hey look at me, but like in a, Hey look, we know what pop culture is gonna be like in the late 22 hundreds. They're gonna say stuff like this. And It's like,

no, no, just, uh, just, it's fine. We, we, we get it. Do what you did with rabbi Yaso over here and just let 'em wear a suit from men's warehouse.

Like it's fine. we follow? 

Brent: dig it. Um,

I'm gonna circle back to this later, but I just, I want to bring it up here. Um, when Walker came back to GU Baldi, after he kind of blew up at him after saying stroke off and stuff, and he comes back and he is like, yeah, my mouth, my mouth shut off. And I got in trouble. He's like, I'm sorry. He got to that spot.

It was such a dude thing, but like, Aldi's just kind of looking at it. Like he's kind of, he's still miffed at him. You can kind of tell like at the beginning of the scene and he comes in, he goes, I'm sorry. And bald didn't even say anything. Doesn't even say anything. He just nods his head at the chair.

Like, yeah, come on, sit down now. We're best friends again, you know? And like, I don't know about you, Jeff. That's the way I always grew up with my friends. Like we didn't hold grudges. Like yeah. You, you screwed up. I'm mad at you, dude. I'm sorry. Can we? Yeah, man. Let's cool. Let's go. So what are we doing? 

Jeff: I like the only time we held the grudge is if you didn't own up, you know, I mean, that was the thing you screwed up. You did the thing you show up. Maybe you wait a day and then afterwards, like, dude, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot. And they're like, yeah, you are an idiot. Okay. Get over here. Let's go. We got GI Joe's to play with, you know, or 

Brent: exactly, exactly. Right. I just, it, it like, I like, it was, it was just such a moment that I was, it was so true. I felt to like two guy friends. You know, uh, and I'm, I'm sorry. I don't mean to exclude female friends out there. I'm just not a female. I don't know what it's like to be a female with female friends.

So maybe they're like that too. Not usually from my observations. And I say usually I'm not putting a blanket statement out there, but you know, it, it was, it was like I said so true to my personal, uh, my personal background.

Jeff: I thought, I thought Walker and Gary Baldy were awesome together and I, I don't know. It would, I don't see the path that necessarily brings Walker Smith back onto the show. It'd be cool if he did come back, but I wonder if the actors have, like, they had real chemistry, they, you know, all that stuff worked like when he's sorry, man.

My mouth just go. Yeah. Get over. Like that worked. It wasn't two actors working. It was two buddies hanging out. And so I just, I wonder if there is like I Don. 

Brent: and kind of, 

Jeff: them or if they actually are buddies or something. 

Brent: I mean, it's like, if you remember the show friends, right? Um, And rightly so, like, I always felt that Matthew Perry and

dude that played Joey

Jeff: Yep. And 

Brent: Matt LeBlanc, Matt LeBlanc, that's him. Uh, that, those two guys, they were roommates in the show, or at least for the first several seasons of the show, they always seemed like a much better pair of friends than any of the rest of the, of the cast, know, like they had a different chemistry. Right. Um, and that's not to say that the others weren't just those two had had a thing that was just viscerally different.

It was that, that same

buddy, you know, the bromance that we see the, the Tom and Harry, the miles and Julian, the, uh, oh, who was the other one? I was just thinking about it. The other. Oh, the trip and read yeah, the, the and Spock, honestly, like, you know, we've always had those. Um, I, yeah, I loved it. It was, they were good.

Jeff: Yeah. Really good.

Brent: And then 

Jeff: You wanna dive in? 

Brent: ZEMA. I just, they're just ZMA my only question is how much it was huge. How much did they pay to put that sign on the bar? is what I 

Jeff: I'm gonna guess just about enough to put him outta business, cuz I don't think Zemo was around a lot longer than that. 

Brent: don't think so. I, I don't think so. I mean, it's, that was a thing. It was really bright, really, really bright

Jeff: it? It took up two thirds of the screen. Like he had one third with Walker Smith, given that awesome thumbs up. And then the rest of the screen was Zima. 

Brent: right. I mean, you know, we've heard from so many folks out there about how low budget this was, they're working with such a, a fraction of the budget that other major sci-fi shows are working with. They had to pay for the show. Some. So I, you know, no hate. I just wanna know how much they actually paid for that.

So, uh, yeah, let's transition. Here's a transition cuz we'll cuz you were just asking about going to Ivy, Nova. I wanna talk about Sinclair just for a moment. Um, Michael O'Hare I think is the actor's name, 

Jeff: Mm-hmm 

Brent: something like that. Okay. Is he just super stiff or is he just a bad actor? Like we're 13 episodes into this right now and I can't decide if I think he's a good actor or if he is really a good actor, just playing a very stiff character and I don't know.

Jeff: So I think, and this sounds like a cop out answer, but I think part of it is that uniform does not look comfortable. It looks stiff, Gar Baldy stiff when he is in it. 

Brent: mm-hmm 

Jeff: Yon was stiff period. Like that's just kind how she carries herself. I don't know. Brent, that's a good question because I think we've now seen a couple of times recently we've seen Sinclair be a dude, right?

Like when Catherine Sias around, like he's comfortable and himself with GU Baldy, we've seen him like, you know, let loose a little bit. We see it in here with Ivanova and he's still just so stiff and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. yeah.

I think that's the best thing. I, he just doesn't look like, I don't know. Yeah.

That's a, I, 

Brent: I hope he loosens up. Cuz if we've gotta stick around with this guy for five seasons, like I hope he loosens up.

Jeff: you're really like giving me a lot of like, I'm really, this really kind of hit me, honestly, cuz I think you said a thing that I've been thinking and didn't maybe want to admit, but. He's I'd say he's like 80% great for Sinclair. You know what I mean? Where it's like, yeah, he is fine. This is good. I get him.

I fine. But there's a critical 20% that, well, if you there other people that were kind of stiff and stoic and whatever, who still like, were able to just kind of be normal and hang out, John Luke Picard, you know, and, and it wasn't even in the first season, you know, where he was still being quite military and what he did still loosened up a little bit and maintain, but he maintained that professional decor up until, you know, the final episode when we finally played poker with everybody.

But yeah, with Sinclair, he's not letting loose at all. 

Brent: right, right. Okay. Let's get, 

Jeff: God. yeah,

I'm gonna keep like, and I'll probably cut a lot of this out for the podcast. Honestly. I'm just really thinking through cuz maybe, maybe a lot of, it's just him feeling the weight of command all the time. And he's trying to portray that as the actor. 

Brent: Jeff. I just don't know that he's a good actor, man. Like I really. 

Jeff: to just not admit that. 

Brent: I really just don't know that Michael O'Hare is a good actor. And I don't know, like we know that oftentimes in sci-fi shows it takes people a season or two to get to know their character enough before they actually start playing their character.

Well, right. And I'm not gonna list them all because you're gonna buzz me like 18 times and I'm almost outta my buzzes anyway. So, um, like, like, I, I hope that he gets to that spot where he becomes a much better. I don't know that this show could be led by a guy who is a bad actor like that. Who's just so broadly stiff, you know?

Um, so I, I hope something good happens with them, but 

Jeff: and we think about, uh, Garrett Baldy And we talked about Jerry Doyle and the incredible job that he, did in survivors when we saw him in, uh, midnight on the firing line. and, we saw his second favorite thing in the universe. You and, I talked about just how unbelievable and, ridiculous and horrible that was.

So we went from a guy, had no idea who his character was, was kind of showing up for a job. He probably thought this show was gonna get canceled, you know? Yeah. Whatever, I'll give it a shot. Figure this out to just like nine, 10 episodes, maybe 11 episodes in he's like I've got it dialed in. I got it figured out.

And, and here's depth. Sinclair's had a ton of

Brent: and to that, I'm sorry to that, like with Aldi jar, you know, O Odoyle he knows where Aldi's line is between jokester and station security. I'm a guy who has my own demons and my own problems, but I'm also, I, I'm a guy who laughs at duck Dodgers as well. Like he's got that. He's, he's found that happy spot right there, you know, and Michael Harris just hasn't found it yet with, with, uh, Sinclair.

Like he's got this beautiful deep voice. Very commanding voice. He's got the, he's got the look, it just comes off. So just stiff. And I just, yeah, I don't know. I that's where I am right now. Who knows people out there are like, oh, just you wait, he's gonna be amazing. Or he's gonna have this one episode that you're just gonna, it's gonna blow your socks off and you're gonna think he's amazing.

Jeff: Yeah. maybe it's the next one. Doyle did it for us. Right. So O'Hare, I mean, we know it can happen. So this 

Brent: Or maybe it's in season three 

Jeff: in 

Brent: or season four, like whatever. I hope it's not that far out. Hope it's not that far out. All right. Ivanova let's talk about Ivanova cuz honestly this was much the much more compelling story 

Jeff: yeah. And it's a VVA Ivanova 

Brent: I say? Did I say I have Innova 

Jeff: you did. Yeah. You've 

Brent: a VVA?

Yeah. A VVA. Um, 

Jeff: and in fairness, I learned a thing about Russian culture in, in this where Ivan is the name, but it's Ivanova because she's a woman Ivan. yeah.

Who I, I never knew that before's look at that. Just learning stuff.

Brent: sorry. 

Jeff: I did. not. 

Brent: Yeah, it was, I, I hadn't thought about it with her name before, but once he came out and he talked about, about Ivan or Ivanova or Ivan, however, he said his said his name. I was like, oh yeah, that's why it's like that. But what I noticed though, Jeff, my subtitles still had everything listed for her dad as Ivanova.

And I was like, no, that's not right. That's not what he's saying. Like, like cut it out. The subtitles. Got it wrong. Uh, so we learned something about her that we never knew. We knew she was Russian. We didn't know that she was Jewish. 

Jeff: yeah, 

Brent: That that was part of her makeup. And you talk about seeing the way that Jewish people are treated in sci-fi especially.

And I wanna ask you about that, Jeff, because. I can't think of a time where I've ever seen somebody who is specifically Jewish in sci-fi. 

Jeff: yeah. So I thought 

Brent: do you mean by that? When you talk about that?

Jeff: So the first thing that comes to mind for me and this isn't gonna surprise anybody out there, but in Frank Herbert's last dune book, his last book, chapter house dune. There's a group of people that are Jewish that are hiding and running away from the big, bad guys, the honored mares and the, the leaders called, you know, imaginatively the rabbi in there.

And so that was my first thing. And I started thinking about it some more. And what I kind of came to is in the couple instances I'll share here, where there are Jewish people in sci-fi, they tend to either be cowards or they tend to be completely against anything new or different. So cowards Firefly had two, I feel explicitly Jewish characters, Amon and Mr.

Universe. And both of them took a grand total of like four seconds to cave. and give mal on the crew up is like as soon. Oh, oh yeah. This is the, the transaction we did. And the other part of it too, is most Jewish people or Jewish archetypes or stereotypes are, are merchants of some kind, but the ones that are against things that are new, you got the rabbi and do who?

I mean, they're literally in a ship called a no ship that can't be sensed picked up on scanners. It can't be seen, it's flying through parts of the universe. No one's ever imagined. And he's still talking about like, well, you know, we need to, you know, worry about getting to Jerusalem to do this thing. It's like earth hasn't even been around in millennia and he is so against anything new, but also, uh, in V the series, the mini series via brought up.

There's a great character named Abraham in there who just outright. Tells you the theme, you know of like, Hey, these are fascists coming in to take us over, but he is the same where they're like, we have to fight this way and we have to use these weapons. And he is like, no, no, you have to stick to the old ways and do stuff.

So I, in my experience in sci-fi Jewish people aren't portrayed well, but rabbi Yoel was incredible. You talked about it in your recap, but like at no point Avan was basically saying, ah, I mean, like I'm Jewish, but, and not even a second of judgment. He's just like, I mean, you can see the disappointment on his face, but he's like, okay, well, if you need me, this is, this is where I'm gonna be.

And I'm, I'm here for you. Oh, so good. 

Brent: It's dude. Sometimes that's all people really need is a, Hey I'm here. I'm not gonna push myself into you. I'm not gonna pressure, but if you need me, I'm here and that's why I'm here for you.

Jeff: Yeah.

And it worked great. He, he pressured, I think he definitely. But in a really cool and, and compassionate way, like it was crystal clear. He, he wanted her to sit Sheva, like he wanted that to happen, but also he just wanted her to be taken care of, you know, like ultimately if I, 

Brent: it was for her. He wanted it for her, 

Jeff: exactly.

It wasn't about him checking some, you know? one of the things about Judaism that I know, I know a good, good amount actually. And about this specifically, I've got thoughts we'll get to, but in the Torah it specifically says that the people, the chosen people, the ju the Jewish people are all one. So, what ha what one does, what happens to one?

Everyone does happens to all of us. So like city in Sheva city in shva, she doesn't technically have to do it. Someone else could sit Sheva and that counts that, that that's oversimplifying it. But if someone else goes and sits it, then all. All of the people have had the opportunity to sit.

Brent: So, let me just, let me just clarify this, cuz this is Brent, not knowing Jewish culture hardly at all. Shevas a real thing like this sitting Sheva, like that's what, like, was it accurately described and portrayed in the episode as far as you 

Jeff: Pretty close. Yeah. Pretty close to the sin. Shiva normally, uh, normally takes it's a seven it's seven days of morning, but there are for some rules I don't fully understand? but if it's been a while, if the body has already been buried, some stuff that seven days can shorten, but the, the gist, like just the gist of it is exactly what it was sitting down, letting people swing by telling stories, crying, celebrating, just mourning in more 

Brent: like a seven day wake or something like that, 

Jeff: Yeah.

Yeah, pretty much. And they're, they they're generally, generally they're pretty low key. They are, um, uh, respectful reverent, you know, there's, there's often quite a bit of praying that happens in them. Um, but yeah, they did a good job traditionally, too. Like it's done literally sitting and oftentimes the morning people, the family that are left will actually sit like on the floor or on a low stool, they will sit low to kind of demonstrate like we're low we're, you know, we're feeling down literally right.

now.

And then people can swing by. I, I wish like it was cool. Jumping ahead a little bit. I thought it was really cool that Sinclair was there when she was able to sit. And I know why he wasn't, but I really wish Kara Baldy could have been there. 

Brent: yeah. Yeah. So about that scene with, with Sinclair being there, I thought this was super cool. Like super cool. I think this was more for us as the viewing audience than it was anything else, truthfully. But when she goes to read that poem or the prayer or whatever it is that she read, she said, I know that we traditionally read this in Hebrew, but I'm going read this in, in English so that my friend can be a part of this.

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: You know, like I think most people would go ahead and read it in tradition and their friend like knowing, Hey, he's gonna be here. He's here in spirit. He's going to get to experience this for exactly how it is. He may not know what's being said, but he's around. And he's here in spirit and heart and that's cool.

She didn't want him to feel left out. She wanted him to know exactly what was happening. And she said for his sake, I'm going to break with tradition and do this. And that's so respectful that so much, love that. So much thinking about somebody other than yourself. You know, and I, I just loved that moment.

Like, it, it really stood out to me of like, you don't have, you don't have to sit in tradition all the time, you know? And obviously you think of Fiddler on the roof ion, we do this for ion and like, but it's okay to break with tradition for the sake of people, you know? 

Jeff: inclusion, and being welcoming and, and frankly, just being a good friend. 

Brent: exactly. And, you know, that's the, that's the mantra of, of things. That's how I want to be. That's the type of person that I personally want to be, you know, uh, is a person who thinks about others and loves others and does things to include others, to be all things, to all people, as another famous Jew once said, you

Jeff: Well, you, you had talked about earlier about one in a rabbi and I think there's a lot, there's a gosh, the Jewish faith just has so much in incredible support built into it. So the prayer that she says at the end is called the Kadesh and, uh, Kadesh is a it's probably, I don't know,

I mean, in my circles. right. So, I mean, and these are pretty tight circles, I guess, compared to a lot of people, but it's a pretty well known, well known prayer and it it's, it's it's specific for morning family that, that have been lost. Uh, traditionally it's actually prayed every day for the first 11 months after someone passes then nothing.

And then on the Ann. Um, uh, there's a name for the anniversary. I forget what it is, but on that day, they, they pray it as well. And generally they pray it in minion, which is a group of 10 people. And it used to be, I don't know if it is now still, but it used to be 10 men specifically that would have to be there to, to pray it with you.

The Jewish faith EV for being one of the oldest, continuously practiced faiths in the world has evolved a lot and there's a lot of different sex off of it. And so, I mean, what I'm sharing is what I know from, from, from people that, that I, that I understand their, their traditions and their faith. But I think that this episode did a really, really great job of taking an accurate portrayal of, of Jewish morning and then using it to tell this incredible story and make a really strong statement.

I think part of the statement we gotta talk about is just what a great leader Sinclair was through all. I mean, Ivanovo was a great friend, but when, when rabbi goes to Sinclair and is like, Hey, this thing happened. And he's like, oh my gosh, I had no, no idea. All the time is fine. And then he calls her in.

And the first thing he says is, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This happened. And Ivan was pissed she was so mad,

Brent: I was like, what do you mean? He told you, yeah,

Jeff: right. But she, he was just being a, being a good guy. I thought that was 

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: Did you catch, I was gonna say, did you catch what, uh, what Ivan said to him at the end when he's like, she's like, okay, I'm ready to go back to work.

And he's like, good. These double shifts are killing me. 

Brent: Right. She goes, remember that next time Katherine's on the station or miss Sai or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was 

Jeff: Cracked me. Mm-hmm 

Brent: Um, so this was an episode that pulled threads from multiple previous episodes. In, and I don't think that I had realized everything that had gone on with Ivan Nova's family, cuz we didn't get really much new information at all.

This is all stuff we knew we're just now dealing with it. But they, they were very nice to recap it for us, for those who might have missed it. Ivan Nova's father died on a deathbed and they got to have that last final communication. She like literally witnessed him giving up the ghost. 

Jeff: yeah. 

Brent: She had a conversation, I think in the first episode with Talia winters about her mom being, uh, part of the psych core thing and having to go into hiding and decide to take, did she do the medicine?

I think she did. 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: And then it, it wrecked her. 

Jeff: it. Yeah. 

Brent: Right? So she had that. Yeah. And then her brother who went off and I don't, I feel like we knew that too. I don't feel like that was new information. Uh, her brother who went off and, and yeah, and he was killed during the Menari war. But to bring this all back and to go, she's still holding onto this, that wasn't done.

And to give her a spot to let this go and to talk about why she hasn't let it go, because she still hasn't forgiven her own father to see her get to that spot where, you know, she goes through the, the Sheva process and she just has that moment where she breaks down for 32 seconds, you know, and, and it was, it was like this release for her, like it's gone and, and it goes back to that line.

I quoted it in the recap and, and I'll quote it here. And Jeff, I don't know if we're getting to this part of the, the conversation or not, but, you know, he said without forgiveness, you can't mourn. And without mourning, you can't let go. And it was such a beautiful line that I think is full of so much wisdom.

and I don't even know what to do with it, Jeff, like, you know what I mean? It's just, it was so good. It was so good.

Jeff: Well, I think, I mean, outside of the philosophy, right. And the mindset and the, the life lesson in there, just the storytelling. I, went back after I watched this episode, the second time I went back and I rewatched the end of born to the purple when she had that conversation with, with her dad and watched him die.

And, oh my gosh, it was one of the first. Yeah. Are you hearing.

Brent: I, I am, yeah, it just went off. 

Jeff: You what? Yeah. 

Brent: It just went off. Can you hear me 

Jeff: Yeah. I can hear you. 

Brent: okay. Well, yeah, I, because I was hearing that, I'm assuming that's getting into the recording, so I, I didn't want you it's it's gone now. Whatever was it like 

Jeff: Oh, it's gonna be back. That's the garage opening I'm right above the garage. So we're gonna give that a couple, little bit and then, uh, that 

Brent: Hey, YouTube.

Welcome to how we produce the show behind the scenes. I don't know what you were just saying there, but you're gonna wanna go back to the beginning of that statement. 

Jeff: Yeah. I gotta remember where I, where I started it. 

Brent: I was saying, I don't even know what to do with it. I just think it's a super cool, super cool thing. 

Jeff: yeah. And beyond philosophy. Just gotta wait for 

Brent: so hold onto that moment while we wait for the garage door to shut.

Jeff: I can hear them opening and closing doors. So that's good. We have cousins. Stay in the night. And my incredible wife, uh, took them to go do ice cream so we could record this, but we're still recording. So 

Brent: you go. 

Jeff: be the end of this. Hey, we're close. We're close. 

Brent: Mm-hmm

Jeff: in fact, do you have anything outside of this piece?

We can jump into closing 

Brent: no, no, this is it. I, I mean, yeah, this is, this is me transitioning to.

Jeff: So I'll hit this piece and then we'll, we'll transition in as soon as she shuts the door. Go ahead and there, 

Brent: Hey, honey, please shut

Jeff: Uhhuh you shut

the garage door piece. All right. And then she'll yeah, that'll be good.

She's probably helping get stuff out of the car. I hope they had fun. We had a really cool new ice cream place open here in town. And so she took the kids there and yeah, which means I'm probably not gonna get any ice cream , which is fine. I guess my doctor would think it was fine. 

Brent: Yeah. Mm, mm mm-hmm . There you go.

So Jeff seen any good movies lately as we wait on this,

Jeff: I, I really haven't actually. How about you? 

Brent: uh, let's see here. Oh, I went to see Thor love and thunder. 

Jeff: Is that good? 

Brent: Not too long ago. It was in many ways. Completely ridiculous, but I 

Jeff: makes the Thor movies great. 

Brent: Yeah. Like, I mean, especially the new ones with Tatti as the director and this new path they've taken Thor on they're so out, out of left field, but they're, they're a lot of fun, which is what honestly, a comic book movie should be is a lot of fun, but it's also got a lot of heart and it's a lot of pathos.

Oh, there it goes. There goes to the garage. Um, 

Jeff: That's even through the noise gate like that, that thing's loud. 

Brent: yeah. There you go all there we go. Uh, anyway, I, if you're into Marvel, it's good. The only thing I'll say is I need Marvel to slow down on these series that keep putting out on Disney plus, cuz trying to keep up with the movies and the series and everything that's going on is really giving me a headache.

And I feel like I'm missing stuff that I just don't wanna miss. And sometimes I feel like these series just could have been a movie. 

Jeff: Right. 

Brent: I didn't need a series make, make the movie for Disney plus that's fine. I don't need a theatrical release for all of them, but I, I also don't need a 6, 7, 8 part series on it either.

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: all I have to say about that. We're talking about this. 

Jeff: Back to Babylon five. 

Brent: Yes. I don't know. I don't even know what to do with that. I just think it's really cool.

Jeff: sorry, I'm gonna cut it way back to the original one. You did. 

Brent: Sure. I was just trying to give you a lead in for it. So

Jeff: That was good. Well, I think it's more, I mean, if we look at this as more of the philosophy of everything or even just, oh God, I, I totally lost, uh, I lost, I lost the point altogether and I had a really good one. So

we were talking about, wow, I'm so sorry, YouTube.

This is awful. What was the point you were making? 

Brent: I was hoping you would remember no, um,

that, that Ivanova Ivanova, Ivanova went through this process and she was able to finally mourn and there was that line that he said of without, um, without forgiveness, you cannot mourn and without mourn you can't let go. And that's just a super cool bit of wisdom. I think a lot of us really could learn from, and I didn't even know really what to do with it, but I think that's, we can learn from that.

Like people hold onto stuff and, and frankly, you just gotta be able to release it sometimes and let it go. And yeah, that's what I was talking about. When you got 

Jeff: Yeah. And I mean, I don't know what to do with that either, but if you look at it beyond the philosophy, if we kind take that and the, the mindset that you can have, which is incredible, and let's just rewind it and bring it way down and just look at the storytelling of Babylon five in this. So. I went back after I watched this for the second time.

And I rewatched the end of, uh, born to the purple when Ivan talked to her dad and watched him die. And there were two things I really pulled out of that one was that they reshot the conversation with her dad for this. So he was able to give a little more context, but everything he said in the one we saw here was said in a different way.

So like real great continuity. And they both ended like his, his last words were forgive me and then thank you. And it was, oh, I mean, it was a gut punch then, but now that like we've watched a lot of her mourn, it was so great. But when she broke down, when she was like watching him die and, and maybe I'm just reading into this, but like, you could see the whole thing where she was so sad that he had died.

And I think she felt close to forgiveness, but wasn't there. And I think a lot of her tears. Because she wasn't there yet. And she felt she felt guilty or bad that

she wasn't ready to forgive. She got the opportunity here because she has literally the Galaxy's greatest rabbi. yeah. There's that awesome.

Blon five storytelling we've been told about for so long. I,

feel like now I've seen it. I've seen it happen. 

Brent: I remember when my father passed away my biological father, uh, for that little bit of Brent history, my dad was never a part of my life. I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw him growing up, you know what I mean? And when I was, when I was a young 20 something, he moved back to town where I was, and like anybody, I naturally wanted a relationship with my dad and that went okay for a very short amount of time.

And then he full-on rejected it. Um, the last two words he ever said to me were F you, 

Jeff: Wow. 

Brent: was through an intubator he was fully intubated. And he said it through that, to me, there's the last two words he ever said to me

when it came time for his funeral, I of course went because honestly I was, and I, I said at the time I was like, I'm here for everybody else. I'm not here for me. This was not a man that I knew. This was not a man that I could honestly say that I loved, you know, he was still my dad. You know what I mean?

Like he's still my father, like for all his faults and all of that, he still is who he is. And that there's nothing that can change that. And I remember, you know, like I never grieved, I never anything, you know, he had a, a, his wife at the time who, one of the best human beings I've ever known in my life, and I don't know what she ever saw in him, but she's awesome.

Uh, love her to this day, love her still in contact with her anyway. Um, you know, she was very much in grief and I remember I was literally the last one in the funeral home funeral parlor, where they were holding it. And I just sort of like, I went over and I just sort of stood over his coffin. I was the only one in the room.

And I, I had that moment that Ivan V had that, oh, you know, and it was, and it lasted for Jeff. I don't know that it lasted for five seconds, but it was, it was just a, like, he's gone. This is done the whole, and there's. There was a, there was a moment of like, we will never have a relationship. Now. There is no more chance for that.

I, I think there was, that was it for me was, was, uh, I always still kind of held out hope that maybe we could have something as a, as a relationship even though, um, even though it wasn't great and it's not like he ever really mistreated me. He just, he wasn't a great person. Um, frankly, uh,

and, and I think there was just the, I don't care who he is or what he's done. That's still my father. There's still that moment. You know what I mean? 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Her, her, that, that sort of almost guttural, just like, oh, oh my God. Like, you know what I mean? I like, I felt that in such a moment, but it was a letting it go.

Jeff: Mm-hmm, 

Brent: Letting go of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it, it just seems so natural and like, like I got it, you know, and I, I mean, I don't, I don't know that I've ever honestly done the work that I've Nova Ivanova, I'm sorry. I keep putting re trans here. I don't know that I've ever done the work. I certainly never sat in Shiva.

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: You know, not for this guy. I ain't gonna forgive him. He never asked for it. You know, at least this dude asked for it like that. Wasn't that, wasn't the thing. And it's not that I'm withholding it. I just like, I don't like, I, I don't, I've just never done the work on it, but anyway, it was such a cool moment.

Um, Jeff, let's talk about it. 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: Let's boil it down. Let's get to that spot. Um, where we talk about the messages let's apply that filter let's apply that lens that we've gained as, as longtime star Trek podcasters, where we overanalyze the episode. And we look for the messages we look for what it's saying.

Does it hold up a mirror? Does this have that, that hope of the future, that star Trek like quality? How many deltas do you give this episode, Jeff. And do you think you should have watched it sooner?

Jeff: I do think I should have watched this sooner. I will watch this episode again and for deltas, we'll get there. I think you've done such a great job describing the power of forgiveness and how well this episode, um, communicated that and showed it. But I wanna talk about how I feel. This was an episode that was about honoring, respecting, reconciling, celebrating different cultures, right, So rabbi Yael, eating trio, you know, that was such a cool moment where he is like, is this kosher? And she's like, well, I don't know. He's like, well, Torah doesn't say anything about trio, so I'm gonna do it just goes in. We saw something, Claire honor, the Jewish faith and tradition. And then Ivanova right.

Reciprocate that by doing the Kadesh in, in English, we saw Smith learn the traditions of the Muai. He follow them and respect them that whole scene, that whole, the training montage, the fight, everything. Was Rocky four, the way the crowd came around, Geor showing respect at the end and him starting the chant for Smith Smith Smith.

That was the point on it. Just like Ivan Varain in English was the point on that story. One of the things I really love about star Trek is that it shows us that every single culture is important and that coming together with different cultures doesn't mean homogenization, right? It's not, it's not a melting pot.

It's it's diversity and, and all it's infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I think, I think about Kirk joining Spock in a mock time Picard and WARF in sins of the father, different cultures and traditions can coexist side by side, but there has to be that core level of respect. Star Trek 

Brent: Clark fighting for Greel or whatever . 

Jeff: exactly.

In the house of cork. Yeah. There's so many examples. This episode did exactly that. I think this episode is all star Trek. I am giving this five deltas. What about 

Brent: right, man. I love it. I love it. I did not consider anything that you just said, and I love every bit of what you just talked about, cuz I, 100% agree that that is, that is a huge piece of where this goes and what this is all about to me this episode though, you, you said it and you guys have heard me say it multiple times.

This episode was all about forgiveness. I did a little tracking to see where all forgiveness was found throughout the course of this episode. Walker, we have to talk about this one. Walker had to come to Aldi to ask for forgiveness for something that he did. You know, you just a little pop off. Hey, forgive you right away.

No problem. The rabbi had to ask a VVA for forgiveness for Medling in her affairs, right? Ivanova in order to get to where she needed to be, she needed to forgive her father. We saw the memory of her father asking forgiveness of Ivanova please forgive me or Viva, oh my gosh. She, he physically asked for forgiveness.

And then even in the end, in the, the Muai thing, uh, or the Muai, the public forgave Walker, the public had this opinion of who he was. 

Jeff: Right. 

Brent: He went out there and improved, improved, whatever he proved and they start chanting his name. And he even got his little bit on the news and who knows what that's gonna come come about as well.

But at least as far as we can see now, I don't know. Somebody out there is probably like, oh yeah, just wait for three episodes. When Walker gets back and he's being slammed by the Confederation company and just stripped of whatever, like. something like that. Like, I don't know, but as far as we leave the episode right now, that's the impression that I'm left with.

I thought that there was this beautiful, weird juxtaposition of this violent of all violent fights, which honestly wasn't that violent, um, being fought and intercut with a service that is remembering a person who was known as a man of peace. 

Jeff: Oh yeah. 

Brent: You know what I mean? Like I thought it was just this weird way and like she's seeking forgiveness through this while this fight's going on.

And it was just a weird cut back and forth, but it worked every bit of it worked and I really want to go back and, and I'd like to, if I had more time before doing this, I would've, I would've done it, but even more so now that I'm thinking about it, I want to go back and watch that sequence again, because I wonder if there's something that's happening with a VVA.

With the Sheva thing that somehow matches what's going on with Walker in the fight. I could be reading way too much into that. I fully am acknowledging that right now, but I wonder if they wrote it in such a way that maybe that's why they cut it the way they did. You know, uh, because I think this episode is one big ball of a message of saying, Hey, people be like this.

Don't be people who hold onto grudges. Be people who forgive. I love what you said. Be people who honor other people's col customs and cultures. I love that too. I don't know if I've ever given any episode five stars. Maybe I have, maybe I did mine or war prayer. Uh, the DC Fontana episode that I'm going to agree with you.

This is a five star or five Delta episode. This is so star Trek. It may not be a message that star Trek has ever really done. At least not in this way, but this is the type of message that the world needs to be hearing. This is the type of TV we need to have on for people to sit down and watch together, which is something we say on beam me up all the time.

Like we need to sit down as a world and collectively watch this because it's that, uh, it, it means that much.

Jeff: Well that's TKO next week. 

Brent: We just TKO TKO.

Jeff: did boom, boom, boom, P PCO. Here's my Mario reference. 

Brent: There we go. 

Jeff: we have toys here. We have toys. It's great. Like I said earlier, we don't look at the next episode. We just see the name and that's it. Next episode is called grail. Brent, we guess what? These are what they're gonna be about based on the name alone.

So, Brent, what do you think grail is gonna be about? 

Brent: If this isn't a rip on Indiana Jones in the last crusade, I am gonna riot. 

Jeff: this is the one 

Brent: This, this has to be, I mean, dude, I called TKO. I'm calling this one. This has to be like they're off searching for some sort of a holy GRA. I don't know that it has to physically be a grail, but some sort of a grail type object. And they're, they're, it's a, it's a treasure hunt.

It's an adventure. I wanna see Nazis show up. Um, I, I mean everything. I wanna see the greats. I wanna see the night who's going, he chose poorly. Like I wanna, I wanna see all of it. It better be a complete and total rip on Indiana Jones and Las crusade.

Jeff: can't be anything else. , you know, I mean, I it's grail there's grail doesn't mean anything else. And this is when did last crusade.

come out? Like this is 

Brent: 89. I 

Jeff: Yeah. So we're still in the we're in the sphere of all of that. I, I wanted. I wanted really badly to be like, Oh, this is gonna be, uh, so, but Yeah.

no, this is gonna be some sort of a grail hunt of some kind.

There's no way it's not, but we're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you so much for joining us here. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening to us. And if you're on apple podcast, pod, chase, or anywhere else, leave us a review, but say some stuff in there and we'll share it here on the next podcast episode.

So until next time 

Brent: Jeff, you're not gonna do it again. Are you? Oh, you

Jeff: stroke off, man, seriously 

Brent: know what? You need one of those zoom burgers and the Tilian ale.

Jeff: toss in a Zima and we'll live long. And, 

Brent: Jeff. Hey, stop. I got it. I got it. Let's solve this whole thing. Let's just do the hand thingy and call it good.

Jeff: but the, but the podcast people won't be able to see. 

Brent: That's okay. The YouTube people will. You

Jeff: Oh, okay.