Voices of Authority | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is one of the only shows that you get to watch for the first time twice but in doing so Jeff we are still searching for sci-fi messages you know we found a bunch in the first watch there's a bunch more that we've missed ones that we didn't know ones that we've been able to research but also just new things we've grown as people things have changed so we are still searching for those sci-fi messages we We have a litmus test that we use, Jeff, kind of a three part. It's not, this is not the end all be all, but this helps us out. It goes by this. We're looking for messages that hold up a mirror to society, messages that give us hope that things can be better in the future, or messages that just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, one thing, a little caveat, because we covered it ad nauseum, maybe not ad nauseum, we covered it a lot in our first watch. The mirror to society litmus test. We're probably not going to hit a ton on this particular viewing. It's there. We know it. It's there. We know it.

[2:13] We have discussed it. You know, I mean, I say that now. We'll see what happens. We may wind up in a rabbit hole. I don't know. I don't know. But anyway, I just want to acknowledge that. Now, that being said, Jeff, I have to issue a warning. Yes, you do. This is a warning to all the folks out there who have not watched Babylon 5 for the first time for themselves.

[2:35] This is your spoiler warning from this point forward. Anything from any part in the franchise, any part in the, in the, in the universe of Babylon five in Canon, out of Canon, whatever is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about, right? This is, this is your spoiler warning. If you have not watched the show for the first time, stop the show. I would never tell you to stop a show mid show, but I'm going to tell you to stop this one. Go back to our first watch where that one is completely spoiler free. Join us there. And when you catch up with us here, make sure you say hi, but this is just a warning. I can't force you, but we're going to talk about stuff way forward down the line. I promise you that. Well, today, Brent, we're watching an episode called voices of authority. Do you happen to remember what you thought of this one the first time we watched it? Oh, I more than happened to remember. I do remember. Yeah. Wow. I really liked this episode. I like this episode a lot. This is the episode where we get chicky. Yeah, right. We get chicky.

[3:37] I remember the feeling like this one had, this one was kind of dirty. Not like, I mean, well, yeah, I had some NSFW type stuff, but you know, more of the, the 1984 vibe to this one felt real icky. We could kind of see where everything was going out of this one. I do. I remember that like this sort of pointed us in, in a pretty good direction. But i also in hindsight remember being very disappointed that chicky never comes back right i thought she'd be so good to add to the cast bring some real tension because that's what babylon five needs is more tension totally it's lacking big time in that but regardless she just brought such a cool dynamic and a cool chemistry could have used a little less of her accent i I don't know if you remember that there, Jeff, but outside of that, I, I really, really, um, I really enjoyed everything about chicky and, and good Lord. That sounds like I'm so 13 and juvenile. Like I enjoy the character and where they're going in this one, um, withdrawal and all that other stuff too. So yeah. How about you, Jeff? Why do you call her chicky? What is that? Like you'd said something about that, like last week, something, why do you call her chicky? Uh, well, uh. There's a story.

[4:54] It's based on a real person. It would take a little longer than we have right now to get into it, but it's a good story. Let's pick it up kind of towards the end of the show. More than what we have time for in this particular segment. It's a good story, though. Yeah, yeah. Don't let me forget. Okay. Well, when I watched this the first time, I think I felt a lot of the same that you did. I enjoyed it. I thought that it was sharp. I thought it was smart. uh we this was one of the big jabs at star trek that uh babylon five threw and that's what i mean we put that it's uh very much a part of our canon in our in our outro music and has been for a very long time and so i think like this this one really stands out i know there's like a whole other plot that happens another story in this one i couldn't tell you anything about it when i think voices of authority i think julia misante with chopsticks in the fresh air restaurant just preaching the most horrible things you can possibly just awful stuff yeah horrible yeah well jeff um that's what we remember but it's actually on record sometimes memory is faulty but it is on record sometimes not often not with us yeah yeah i went back and i watched i watched our original episode Yeah. Would you like to know what we actually thought of it? I'm almost nervous to say yes, but yeah, what did we think?

[6:17] I'm actually very happy to report our memory is very accurate on this one. Of course it is. We both really liked this episode quite a bit. I had a prediction, and I'm curious if this is where this actually holds up. Jeff, I'm going to ask you to pull up our ranking from the first time around. Okay. All right. Because my prediction was is by the end of season three, while this was a good episode and we certainly enjoyed it, this was actually going to be one of the lesser than episodes. On the season just meaning that's how good season three was going to be where did this one wind up.

[6:54] 14 oh wait is that less that's the bottom half that's the bottom half yes yeah you nailed it all right there we go cool um yeah we we both uh like i said we both were like that we got a cool email um actually we had gotten an email back when we first recorded soulmates the season two episode which was right around christmas and i think we did this one in like may or june so it was it was six months later but we had jeff we just received one of the coolest emails that you and i have ever gotten yeah and it was it told us the story of two people who's we've just shortened their names to their initials to j and d uh j and d were a married couple you remember this now right Yeah, this is amazing. J and D were a married couple that unfortunately had fallen on some pretty hard times as a couple. They were in the midst of divorce proceedings, weren't talking, weren't doing anything.

[7:52] And one of them heard the other one listening to our show on YouTube, poked their head around the corner for soulmates.

[8:01] And they did the work. Okay, let's be really clear. They did the work, but our show gave them a point of being able to reconnect and, and, and they reconnected and rebonded over Babylon five for the first time with Brent and Jeff, right? Like it was just so super cool. Um, I remember that email they talked about. So we started watching Babylon 5 and your show together. And at first, we were sitting on far opposite ends of the couch. And slowly over time, we kind of moved closer and closer together. And then we started going to counseling. And now we're together and we're happy and all these things. And I just have to say, podcasting, not podcasting, creating something is a lot of work. And a lot of it's invisible and a lot of it is thankless and it's the work of it's why not everyone does this and a hundred percent there are times i'm speaking for you all i don't know this but i'll speak for you but there are times where it's like yeah no i'm done like i just there's no gas do i want to keep doing this yeah yeah yeah anytime i have that little inkling it is this email that i remember and i'm like oh yeah i'm gonna keep doing this yeah let me go search for silence a little bit longer in this wave form like it keeps me going.

[9:27] Yeah it's uh it's just such a such a neat thing um so j and d if you guys are still with us if you guys are still listening um regardless of where you guys are we know listen hopefully everything has you guys are just doing great and you're doing strong and sometimes that happens sometimes it doesn't wherever you are hopefully you're still with us um and we just want to say high and we're glad that we could have at least had a positive impact on that part of your life uh for when we did and and hopefully you're still you're still out there i'm sure there's a lot there but yeah um anyway it just i just could i i was just i like i was it i was in the car kind of starting to tear up a little bit like oh my god yeah like i remember that it's just so cool yeah um anyway let's hear where are we gonna go let's talk about chicky for a moment jeff we had a lot to say about her i bet yeah we're just gonna get through it uh chicky julie julie Masante, uh, was her name. I referred to her. As you thought she was going to be like the female Wells, right? And you also hoped that she would stick around quite a bit, but you also kind of called her early on a Kimmer 2.0.

[10:32] Oh, it feels a little weird, but it does. It does. It does. Definitely. Like you though. I, I actually, I'd said with her, with Theo withdrawal, the new draw, by the way, Zach coming in, getting more and more of a thing. Marcus, this new guy, Marcus, Marcus is back in this episode. When was the last time we saw Marcus? episode one okay this is episode five so it's been a bit yeah but marcus is back in this episode and all this it just felt like and we lost veer didn't we right in the last one last episode um it just felt like we were adding new cast members to the show now not the three who are going to be in every single episode but those ones are actually going to have more recurring parts than i don't know say a certain hot shot fly boy from season two yeah you know um unfortunately that's not that's not exactly exactly what happened.

[11:23] And Ron over in the council chambers chat said a little bit ago too. I couldn't agree more. You know, we, Julie Masante is like horrible. Like we, we see that's the kind of the point of the episode, but Sherry Shattuck, who is the actor, plays her incredible, fantastic. And like, I think we talked a little while ago about Wells and then trying to, you know, the idea of Masante coming on as a thing, just having that on station foil for Sheridan, really i think we were we were both kind of feeling that at the time yeah so like yeah either one of them would have been fantastic yeah there you know there's a there's a show that i can think of that over the course of its run it went through a couple different um i get like station commanders or ship commanders or something and like the the last one they got to was only there for the one season for the final season um a little bit a little bit like um oh geez her name's slipping my mind now on this show. Lady from season five. Lockley. Lockley. A little bit like Lockley.

[12:23] But the last one came in as a foil to the rest of the team, not like somebody who's on the good guy side. And it brought such a great dynamic to the show that it really made it a shame that the show ended right then. Because it really felt like it was finding its foot now with this, not having somebody who's like a General Hammond for the team. But like imagine if jellicoe would have stayed the captain on star trek on on the enterprise yeah and that would have been you know that that would have been where we went with it so it was kind of kind of that situation anyway um that would have been nice to have her have have chicken yeah uh julie masante uh stay here uh her voice though very very much bothered both of us you said the voice just does not match the face yeah at all i wonder if it's her if she's putting on an affect.

[13:15] You gotta wonder you really gotta wonder and again I think this is where I go back to the Byron thing like if she's not doing it on purpose she's awful if she's doing it on purpose it's brilliant yeah it's one of the two and I don't know which one it is it could be either one, uh let's talk about marcus for a moment we had a lot of good stuff to say about marcus, um you had this idea with him outside of just how cool we really liked him and how much we noted that he was just going hardcore after avonava yeah like we we called it out here like hey him and avonava and you and i both know that's gonna be a thing a little bit of a thing yeah that's gonna be a thing literally is the thing that does him in right uh which which i thought was cool but But you had this idea that what was going to happen, kind of like an ongoing story forward, like the new story of Babylon five of where we're going, his story is basically going to be draw down in the great machine, mining the, the, the data banks of the great machine for information on the first ones. And here's Marcus taking the single white star that we have at this point.

[14:21] Because we don't have a fleet. It's just the one, right? And he's going to be going off on adventures to find the first ones and try to recruit them into the cause. And this is what's going to unfold over the course of a couple seasons until we actually get to, like, great war. Then everybody fights and goes kaboom. Okay. That's not at all what happens. Well. So failure on your part. It's him and Ivanova for, like, two episodes. Right? But that was a great – that would have been an interesting, like, alt universe. Where is that oh there there it is that's the thing it's in an alternate universe that's exactly what's happening uh-huh on his trip he winds up in our universe where marcus isn't doing any of that and marcus is dead because of the thing because he's not frozen he's sorry i reject i reject this this idea that he's out there frozen somewhere don't tell me it's canon i don't care i I reject it. I tell you what's canon. I will tell you. We had a lot to talk about Zach in this one. Zach comes in. He's just the good old boy. And you had a lot with how he interacts with Garibaldi in this one in some not great ways, I guess.

[15:35] Because he does these things like, well, Garibaldi, if you trust me, then you'll tell me what the secret code is that you keep spouting out. And you're like, actually, he can't. But that doesn't mean he doesn't trust you, and it's not a non-binary thing. But Zach goes – he goes on his own little journey, and we'll get to watch it in this. Remember that now. But we both said that they're doing something with – Zach isn't just another Lou who's going to disappear on us. He's going to be around. And you and I both know that Zach is around literally until they blow the station up. Yep. So yay for us. Air high five. We got that one right. Boom. I thought the Kodar 7, because that's what they call it. That's their code for a War Council meeting. Kodar – I thought it was a booty call. So I'm interested to watch because I don't exactly know why, what the context of that is. The only thing I think is if like Ivanova comes up to Garibaldi and be like, hey, code 07, what's up? Or something like that.

[16:30] It's almost like, hey, want to go watch some Firefly? Hey, want to go watch Stargate? Right? Yeah, right?

[16:39] Which is legit my code with my wife. I'm going to go watch Stargate. Anyway, I can tell anybody that. Yeah. I was just throwing it out there.

[16:47] Jeff, you connected. In this planet, we talk about Sigma 957. Okay. And you connect that to the planet that Catherine Sakai went to, that Jakar went off and went to rescue her and all that sort of stuff. So –, Um, the dots, there you go. There you go. Now, speaking of connecting the dots, I doubled down pretty hardcore and repeatedly on B five breaking away from earth dome. Okay. Which apparently was something I said during the season to wrap up. Yeah. And I've, I, it just feels like we're going that direction. It's just what I was saying. We're going in that direction. We're going in that direction. And I wondered what would happen when earth withdraws its financial support from the station. Turns out that's actually a plot point. Yeah. Took quite a bit of what's going on. Oh, back to Zach. One of the things you thought about Zach was you thought he might be one who gets taken out by the Ministry of Peace. Because they talk about taking out certain people who don't have the right train of thought or the right thought police and all that sort of stuff. And he's been questioning up to this point. Well, because you can't take out Sheridan Garibaldi or Ivanova. Yeah. You're not going to take out Londo or Jakar right now at this point or Dillon. You're not going to take out an ambassador. So who's left? We've already taken out Veer. Lanier is pretty solid. Zack seemed like the next right guy. You thought he might get taken out. Wow. Which would be better than just disappearing. Yeah.

[18:10] Lewing his way out of it. Lewing his way out. Oh, my gosh. We had a big discussion, though, about the nature of the great machine. Because, you know, Vanova goes in and she plugs in and she does the thing. But, like, can you just plug and unplug? Like, great big long discussion over that. Can you unplug? Just the whole nature. And I got to tell you, as somebody who understands now, I was like, would you guys stop? That's not what it is. But you had a great thing. You said that – I keep calling it a battery, the human battery. You said it's not a battery. I think it's a processor. It's like a CPU. It's a processor, which you're absolutely right. That's exactly what it is. And I capitulated to that. Good. But you also thought there would be a lot more other Epsilon III machines out there. Oh, not just the one, but like this is a thing Uh-huh that there'd be a lot out there now uh, I don't know that we have confirmation that Epsilon 3 is the only great machine out there. True. But it's the only one that we've no other heard of in anywhere in the canon. So anyway. We joked that all the draw first one stuff was basically the force. He's just describing the force. All right. Yeah. It's just this thing that exists throughout all living creatures and whatever, whatever, whatever. We had that. We also said that the first one ships because we get the big Tiki head in this one. Their first one ships actually were very reminiscent of shadow ships.

[19:34] I don't remember what that looks like, so I'm very eager to see what that looks like today. I remember the big disco ball that sticks out of them. Something. Yeah, I don't know. But I compared it to the Federation and the Klingon ships over on Star Trek. They're very different looking ships. But at their base, they have warp nacelles. They have not a saucer section necessarily. A bridge yeah like like the basic things are still very this is what a humanoid ship looks like in the star trek universe similar thing speaking of star trek this will be my last thing we by we i mean me had a new thought about the whole babel on five deep space nine thing yeah which we're like all right buckle in because every time we talk about it.

[20:19] Basically what i said was they're not ripping each other off they're just ripping each other and this was this was my thought was basically they're just making fun of each other you know and i kind of compared it to the tupac biggie east coast west coast like yeah they're gonna they're gonna beef they're gonna they're gonna talk about each other but like behind closed doors they actually were kind of cool with each other it's just this was the thing they put out in in the the universe um you know and it's it's things like they're gonna take this character du cut and turn him into a bad guy or they're going to take this cool character of lita well we're going to turn into a hooker um you know we're going to say this is the you're going to go where everyone's gone before and this is not a deep space franchise we mean something like you know they're just they're just bagging on each other is really really all it was that was my thought i still like that thought i know that's not true you've stuck with that i still through the whole first watch yeah sure i did well until until we got to like read jms's autobiography and get the at least get his side of the story yeah you know which.

[21:20] Jms is now i don't i don't want to say he's never lied to us before but i don't feel like he's ever really lied to us before like in a significant way like that i don't think he's got anything to gain from exactly exactly like he's he's he's telling you know even the whole like ivanova thing this is his side of the story now there could be other sides but, From his, from his point of view, this is where it was. Yeah. And he's sticking to it. Yeah. That's where it is. So anyway, those are some of the things that we talked about the first time around, along with a lot of other messages and all sorts of stuff. But Jeff, my question for you is what JMS say about this episode? I got a lot to say on this one. I kind of condensed a lot of it down. There's actually, I have one of my favorite things that I've ever heard from JMS is in this one. Okay. I'm going to save it for last. All right. But let's see. So we talked, we've talked before about what is the episode to bring a new viewer in on. Okay. And he talked about a while ago coming to shadows. It's great. It's got the drama, it's got the politics, it's got the war, it's got character. It's got a lot of the things and you can, you can walk in fairly uninitiated and follow along. He says, uh, voices of authority is an absolute hoot.

[22:34] If you've been looking to bring in other viewers, it's a good one to start them with because it sets up a lot of what's going to happen. It has a lot of background and it's a lot of fun. Okay. So adding to the list of the things to bring people in on. Someone has a question as they do. And the way that these are like published out there, they don't say the question. They just like give his answer. And sometimes it's like, it's so he starts this one off with, if you're talking about the conference room scene, this is actually just a really cool filmmaking thing. Draw wasn't put into the scene digitally. You do a split screen with the camera locked off in one side. Delenn walks over to a point just short of the line in another, you get a shot just of the wall. Then draw walks up. You then use a dissolve technique to fade him into the room on his side of the split screen but he's not being put into the room he's already there so he's neither bigger nor smaller than he is in real life since he is in real life they're not added in i kind of remember that scene a little bit i'm want i'm really eager to watch it and just see because he's there like i think he's like hologrammy sort of there in the space to kind of see how he constructed that, You know what I find interesting about stuff like that? JMS is a writer.

[23:53] But I guess you pick up on this sort of stuff. But he's talking about like filming techniques and stuff like that. He's not a director of photography. I guess he did direct a couple of episodes. Two? He directed the pilot and then the finale. I think, yeah. Right? Does he have his DGA card? I wouldn't be surprised. Because you know what? I wouldn't be surprised if he's directed in other properties as well. Sometimes they're just like, hey, you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially if it's his property. Andrew says he only directed the finale. Only the finale. Okay, fair enough. And I think he had to be like, if memory serves, he had to be like convinced to do that one. Yeah. Something like that. Maybe. I mean, talk about knocking that one out of the park. Yeah. Don't that pretty okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because Ivanova reaches out to some first ones and they don't respond too kindly to her mention of the Vorlons. They say some stuff, right? And I remember we talked about this a little bit on our first time around, but he says he can't really provide a literal translation because some of the words don't really translate directly. But the sense of what they say to her are the Vorlons can kiss my ass.

[25:05] There you go. I like it. He got some heat on Julie Massante and what people called improbable dialogue. Okay. Uh, just, I mean, we, we know she hit some pretty extreme stuff and I guess people were just like, yeah, that's, that's so unrealistic. That's not, no one would ever talk that way. Okay. Well, many of her lines he lifted directly word for word from political statements from Goebbels, Hitler, Joseph, Joseph McCarthy, Stalin, others.

[25:38] Beat for beat. He says, these are the kind of, this is the kind of big lie dialogue that people continue to fall for today to put this in a time he says go to a pat buchanan rally sometime and then tell me that what she's saying is unlikely dialogue i think that captures a lot of what our discussion would be during the episode right there yeah he does say that uh there is an actual sorry i'm sorry this first and foremost this is a podcast and that was a really bad podcasting thing the Folks on YouTube would have been able to see my face as Jeff was reading that. And it was one of – I don't know how you would describe it, Jeff, but I can tell you my emotion in that moment was, yeah, that sounds about right. And I can't – it kind of pisses me off because, God, it hits home and it's so true. I love when writers do this thing, right? When they're like, hey, I'm going to dust off a thing that is a very difficult pill to swallow for people. But I'm not going to dress it up. I'm going to steal it from real life. Yeah. And so then when people are like, oh, that's not right there. Look, here's the thing. And a little bit of it, Jeff, and, you know, we're podcasters, we're YouTube folks. We talk, we talk about stuff. So not do so would be not doing quote unquote our job. Yeah. Yeah.

[26:58] There are some things that don't require a comment because they're so strong. They can just sit for themselves. And if you can see it, you see it. If you don't, I don't know that I have hope for you. Right. I was talking about it's not going to change that for you. It's right. Right. Like, like it's, it's, I love you. I really do. You talked about how we talked about Zach a lot in this episode. Well, so does JMS. Oh, okay.

[27:20] He says, Jeff Conaway originally auditioned for the role of guard number two. Did it just because he's a fan of sci-fi and he was a fan of Babylon 5. He wanted to be a part of what was going on. But his audition was great. And being backstage and being with the crew, he described him as a moderate and welcome voice at the Babylon 5 lunch table. The lunch table we talked about all the while. A moderate voice. Yeah. We talked about Garibaldi. Just how political. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Doyle there. Well, not just Jerry Doyle. I mean, we know other characters that were, you know, certainly on one side and then others that were on the other side. Like, yeah. Yeah. And it was pretty far, far split. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. So he's a very moderate and welcome voice. But he said, ultimately, it's because he was so likable that he ended up in the Nightwatch role and actually inhabited a role of his own. Which I think is super cool. Because it's Kinnicky, yeah.

[28:17] My fandom for Jeff Conaway is no secret. And what I like about this, too, is you and I have talked about this. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Are you speaking as JMS or are you speaking as Jeff Akin? I'm Jeff Akin. Okay, great. But you and I have talked about this in casting, like when you cast a play or you do something else. It's not necessarily just, hey, that's the person who did the best line read or the person who looks the part or whatever. Sometimes it's, hey, this person's really easy to work with. If they're a value add to the, you know, to the cast and in the, in the, you know, backstage. Yeah. We need them to be a part of this this production i i always talk to my kid and you know like our kids are involved in theater and things and you know you go audition that's who that's real life punching you in the face when you go to auditions yeah yeah and it's hard because sometimes it's nothing you could help oh we wanted someone with this color hair someone that's this tall you know or whatever but being able to coach them on yeah go do your best and then when you get a one or two line part or whatever you do the ever living heck out of that part and volunteer to help be there to do things. You will always have a job if you're that person in places and that worked for Jeff. And I think that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I had a guy that I used to, he was a leader mentor guy in mine called it the, uh.

[29:43] Um, not the benefit, the, uh, basically the art of being around okay you know the the good trait the positive trait of just sometimes you just need somebody who's just around yeah and, they're and they're a pleasure pleasure to have around yeah for real yeah it's true so this is my favorite thing I think I've ever my favorite story maybe maybe my favorite story of.

[30:07] It says when they shoot nude scenes, they put stickers or little things over the private bits. But with Sherry, they kept coming off when they would try to film the scene. So ultimately, it was one of the last scenes they were able to complete. On set, Fridays are barbecue days. And JMS loves him some barbecue. I would never have taken that guy as a barbecue dude. Really?

[30:35] No. Oh, my God. I can see him with the bib. in everything like crap in his beard yeah okay i uh i love barbecue and i uh was in north carolina god 20 years ago a long time ago and there's i mean north carolina's got incredible it's it's a style of barbecue right you know sure pig roasting on the on the pit itself vinegary for the sauce of stuff like that it's good and uh somebody's like there's this incredible barbecue place you got it going i'm like cool let's go what's what they're driving me and at some point we pull off the paved road to a gravel road okay it then turns into a dirt road and like the trees are starting to kind of close in around us and i'm like oh this is this is how it ends like the second i hear a banjo plucking like it's just but it was just this like you stop and there's just this house and they just had all these holes dug and they had pigs in them and i saw my god.

[31:39] It was delicious but jms looks at the schedule that day and he sees that they're doing the misante scene once again and he thought to himself hmm naked lady or ribs and ribs one you, His theory is that before the age of 40, the naked lady will win every time. After the age of 40, it's going to be the ribs. I got to be honest with you, Jeff. Okay. And I have said this to my wife. She knows this about me. I think she actually, actually, I know she does because she said it unless she's completely lying to me. She appreciates this about me. I too would choose the ribs. Oh, yeah. But not because I like ribs that much. It's because it's not her. I'm trying to stay. I'm trying. No, I'm trying to stay married.

[32:26] Is really what it is just god's honest truth i ain't trying to put myself in that situation i look more power listen everybody has their own stuff but uh uh i i am a very big fan big fan of the first one ribs are delicious ribs are great too but i'm a big fan of the first one but you know i gotta keep things at home if that if that makes sense yeah you know although i'd say you're on set and like you know it's all acting and it's not real although george clooney most recently said yeah i'm not kissing people on film anymore like i'm happy where i'm at i'm not gonna go do that stuff so he's echoing what you're saying listen different people have their own different values and different different things and for brent who is over 40 where that is i ain't trying to screw this listen i'm in a good spot right now i ain't trying to screw this up is all i'm saying.

[33:18] You are in a good spot you know i agree i'm in a good spot i'm just trying not to screw it up That's, that's the bottom line. You know, people, people asked me the other day to go to a strip club with them. I was like, no, thank you. No. I mean, it's even something just, Hey, okay. Here, peel back the curtain. It's even something as simple as, uh, during fantasy football this past year, there was a group that asked me to come join them. And I had to, I ultimately had to decline cause I couldn't, I couldn't do some other stuff, but the biggest sticking point was they wanted to do a live draft at Hooters. Oh, Hooters. Okay. And, you know, listen, nobody's naked at Hooters, but they're still just, it just is what it is. And my wife was not comfortable with me going and I was okay. I was okay with it. You know, um.

[34:01] And I think I just have a fun story that no one on the internet will ever hear about when we went on our cruise together and some things that you also chose to not participate in. But you were a huge asset for those of us who did decide to participate.

[34:20] Anyway. What's next on your list there? Well, in the chat, in the chat, Ben makes a really great point. He says, why not? There's a Seinfeld reference for everything. Why not both? Ribs and naked lady at the same time i'm all for it man i am listen i am not decrying it i am not judging it i said i like it and i'm a big fan i do like ribs too don't get me wrong but ribs are delicious i like ribs a lot but that's all i got from uh from the mouth of joe straczynski so what do you say we dive into voices of authority.

[34:54] Finally. Yes, please. Let's get into this episode. You and me before this goes on. Yeah. There's not a lot to talk about at the top of this thing. We should be into the episode pretty on the raw record. We're at 43 minutes. Yeah. There you go.

[35:07] Yeah. There we go. So if you are joining us for the first time, I just want to say welcome. Every episode is somebody's first and we're absolutely ecstatic. You chose this one to join us for your first time run. What's about to happen is Brent and I are going to watch the episode right here, right now. Now we're going to pull it up. We're going to watch it. We're going to comment on it. Do all the cool kind of stuff. If you're watching us on YouTube, what you're going to see is the edited cut up reaction video, the reaction style video of us doing those things. If you don't want the cut up edited version, the unedited version is available to subscribers at our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to us on an audio podcasting app, not doing the video thing, totally cool. Don't worry. You are not going to miss out. We are still going to give you the audio portion of our reaction. It will be the cut-up edited version of that, as Jeff had mentioned earlier. But mostly because that's where we have so much of our conversation. We don't want you guys to miss that. And honestly, if we were to try to rehash it at the end, it just wouldn't work. So we're going to make sure you guys get that. But certainly we'll do that. And then we'll continue on the other side where we talk about those messages. We'll rank it. We'll do all that sort of fun stuff. So Jeff, with that, let's watch an episode. Let's go where everyone has gone before.

[36:28] Yeah, not everyone. Battle on fire. Yeah, not enough people, actually. A great secret. Yeah. It might be sci-fi's best kept secret. Accessing file. Wars are won or lost before they are fought. Through preparation, attitude, strategy, and the selection of proper allies. All right, Sun Tzu. Growing war against the shadows. There may be some allies we haven't approached yet. Many times over the last million years, the shadows were fought to a standstill by the first ones. Race is immeasurably older than our own. I would imagine you could measure how much older they are. It's actually a fairly linear metric. Right. Where no human or Minbari has ever ventured. But the Vorlons remained. It's possible that some of the others may still be around. Well, if this is true, then why haven't we heard from them before now? They have grown tired of constant warfare. Lost interest in the affairs of the younger race. We heard all this in Shadow of Zaha Doom. This is news to a lot of people at the table.

[37:27] And news for people who have just joined the show recently.

[37:32] You know what it actually sounds like? It sounds like the elves in Lord of the Rings. Right? Yeah. When I was being trained on Minbar, we were taught that the first ones are beyond anything we've experienced before. So how do we go about sending them a message? If you only send a signal, they will not answer. They must be found and contacted personally. The danger is considerable, and the odds of success are very small. Okay, I need to talk about this. Okay. Because this bothers me. We're going to go find the first ones. I know they just said the first ones are sleeping, but we're also, the first ones left. They went beyond the rim. Yep. They all left. And into the fire, dude, Lorian, Lorian? Lorian. Lorian takes the Vorlons and the shadows, and they go beyond the rim. Who's still here? Why are you still here? They talk about it. Go. Yeah. They talked about it earlier. There are some that stuck around. The Vorlons and the shadows are some of them. they're still walking around the walkers of nine five seven a couple are hanging up but they're not participating who's on nine five seven the walkers the walkers that's not the shot i thought the shadows were out there i thought that's what what jacar was all about like when he went out there like bad stuff nope as it was the walkers of nine fives of sigma nine five seven as opposed to the sitters of skivety one six seven.

[38:49] God, I got a lot of garbage in that one. Can you go flush your head down the toilet right now, please? My kid's going to kill me. Yeah. I'm going to clip that. There he is! And here's the big effect you were talking about. Yeah, so you can see that light there. That's the line.

[39:06] Mm-hmm. Okay, so he's not hologramming. It's just how they meet. They just had a transporter. Good afternoon, everyone. Yeah. Captain? That's what I always thought. Everybody freeze. Yeah. Go right in place. And action. it doesn't seem as cool right a daring and splendid idea in doing so you will see things no human we love this guy like you and i were he's not over the top he's not like he is perfect for where he is dissected or otherwise killed in an assortment of supremely horrible and painful ways exciting isn't it that's of a meme that's such a great yeah like that's the thing we got I got a clip. We got to have that one. Yeah, I don't like it. I don't like the fact that the first ones are...

[39:51] I can buy the fact that the Vorlons and the Shadows did not go with the other first ones. But they're here. They're active. They're involved. I don't get that there are other first ones that are still just out there kind of roaming around doing things. No, they were all supposed to leave. That was the whole point was the first ones were gone. So the Technomages in Crusade, right? They were leaving. You know, there's still stuff hanging out over here. on this side of the rim? Well, we were told that they were leaving in Geometry of Shadows, but then it turns out they weren't. They just went into hiding, and they were all just kind of clumping together and hiding. But a couple stuck around and were doing stuff. Because if I remember right, they didn't want their technology to get absorbed by the shadows. Well, what we were going to learn is that the Technomages are actually a product of the shadows, and they didn't want to recombine, essentially. Interesting. Yeah, the Crusade arc was going to be off the, like it was going to be incredible. Yeah.

[40:49] I've been assigned here by the Ministry of Peace, the Nightwatch Division, under the direct authority of the Babylon 5 Senate Oversight Committee. I'm to be your new political officer. I don't need a political officer. Oh, but the Senate disagrees. Things are very touchy back home, Captain. I think she would make a really good Natath. Just a minute. I'm only repeating what I've been told. You don't need to kill the messenger. Your decisions might have been correct on some level, but there are ways of doing things so that they reflect more favorably on the earth government. So it was decided that you needed. He's just so deadpan. He's just like, all right, crazy lady. Someone who can whisper in your ear who could warn you about governmental policies you might bump into. Someone who could keep you from making costly political mistakes that might jeopardize your career back home.

[41:35] You have to make a really awkward apology. Take a walk. Yes, sir. Yeah, don't be left alone in the office with her. this is my command my position as military governor is guaranteed under the charter of the babylon project yes i've read it two reasons not to be left alone with her one you need a witness yep 100 just now i know we were not in in society back in mid-1990s later we are today but you don't need to put yourself in that situation the other thing frankly is zach needs to see his commander like it's a great example for zach it's a learning lesson for zach to see how somebody stands up you know but all the more all the more reasons there's multiple but those are the two that really jump out to me of like why actually zach should be yeah left there and he is the security guard on duty so he's bound by confidentiality and all that sort of stuff yeah This is a military outpost. Which answers to a civilian government. Decisions made by military officers must reflect the current governmental policies. The president proposes and the military disposes. Unless there's been a coup, no one told me. There actually was, but I think you were told. Unless I receive orders to the contrary, I refuse to share that authority with an unqualified civilian.

[42:55] And no one is asking you to. I am simply here to advise. Yeah, her voice is getting already really like I'm done with it. So I suggest that we do what we can to live with it amicably. I can't make my appointment on Epsilon-3. You'll have to go in my place. Get the information and get back as soon as you can. Not a problem. Anything else you need? A glass of whiskey, a gun, and two bullets. Understood.

[43:19] I'll call you when I get back. What do you think would have been different if Sheridan went down instead of Ivanova? Well, it needed to be Ivanova because of the latent telepath thing, right? Like it couldn't have been Sheridan to fulfill the thing. So had it been Sheridan, he wouldn't have been able to get into the machine. And he later would have had to come back and be like, actually, I know the right person to send down here for this job. And we just would have delayed what eventually happened, I think is what would have. That makes sense. You know this actually just kind of short short cut the whole thing okay so nia over here in the chat says that draw isn't a telepath so you don't have to be a telepath to get into the great machine i don't think vern was a telepath either i thought they were i don't think so i thought that was first of all aren't like all minbari like a little bit telepathic or something like that are we all a little telepathic you know listen i got i got theories they're like, So did Ivanova really have to be a latent telepath? I don't think so. For this whole thing to work. I think that— Why do we have that idea, Jeff? You and I both were under that impression. Why do we have that idea? They make a big deal out of her going off the path. I think Nia makes this point also. She does more than was expected because of her latent telepathy. Okay, let's watch for that one. Earth would never ally itself with the government that's bent on war. Yes, but we have signed a treaty with the Centauri.

[44:39] Exactly, which proves my point. yeah we would uh we would never ever do this one thing well you did it with them yeah so that must mean that they didn't because we find the thing and we wouldn't do that with people who did so they're not that makes sense that is that i mean jeff that's the logic uh-huh and that's the logic we see so often utilized right now yeah i said we're not gonna get too far into it but holy crap jeff yeah holy crap oh in many ways we have the same problem earth does earth doesn't have homeless excuse me, We don't have the problem. Yes, there are some displaced people here and there. But they've chosen to be in that position. They're either lazy or they're criminal or they're mentally unstable. They can't get a job. EarthGov has promised a job to anyone that wants one. They're in a system that is stacked against them. They must not want one. Game was rigged from the start. Poverty? It's the same. Crime? Yes, there is some, but it's all caused by the mentally unstable. And we've just instituted correctional centers to filter them out at an early age. Correctional centers. At an early age. No, we're just one happy planet.

[45:46] Well, all right, there's the Marsies, but that won't change until they stop fighting the Earth rule. When exactly did all this happen? There was a comment online about Asante and being blonde and just, you know, having the appearance that she has. And JMS has come as basically, well, yeah, that's how they do it. If you get a face like that, if you look through history, it's very often an attractive blonde woman. Dude, you don't have to look through history. I'm sorry. You don't have to look through history. Turn it on right now. It literally, I mean, I could name two names right now. Two that immediately come to my brain. If you're watching this on YouTube, they were on one of the thumbnails on that home screen page that we were on.

[46:25] Some people just enjoy finding fault with our leaders. They're anarchists. They're troublemakers. That's actually, they're actually citizens. Kind of what a democracy is made up of. You should always be criticizing them. Do you want people thinking otherwise? These are the areas that I want to help you with. I want to feel like I'm needed. That I'm doing my part to help bring the EarthGov back into the hands of the decent, hardworking people that created it. I'm doing my part. I am here to protect you. I admire your honesty and your record and your attitude. And I don't want to see anyone use those things against you. Nice veiled threat. Quite frankly, I think I could come to like you. I have one tool that I know how to use and I just dropped it down. If you just plug yourself into the Matrix, we'll take it from there. The Matrix. We went off on this idea that we literally just called out the Matrix. Oh, yeah.

[47:17] My mistake. I spend so much time out of my body, I sometimes forget where it is. If you'll excuse me. You will only take a moment for me to disentangle myself. I remember the first time we watched this, I was not thrilled about the idea that they just so easily go in and out. Yeah. Your jacket. It really is quite safe. I have set the machine so it can handle humans. I've made sure that it can deal with my absence. I'm going to ask the question I always ask. How does he go to the bathroom? He's there long enough to have dust on him. The program will take you from there. Do not stray from the path. Andrew answers the question. That's what Zathras is for. Okay. I remember we paid a lot of attention to this the first time.

[48:08] I see it. It is the power that binds us. One to another. It's got the coloring of a Vorlon ship. Focus on kind of like that. It's that same colored of entrance gradients. Right. Yeah. To them. Now we're in the stargate. Watch out for the whoosh. I know this place. So knock you out of your shoes. I've seen the star charts. Sigma nine, five, seven. They were here. I did not. Would not have connected this back to Catherine's the guy. I'm not alone.

[48:45] Excuse me okay so maybe this is the part that the telepath thing is happening yeah it's pulling me in i can't stop it it is the enemy pull away go back to the path by enemy does he mean shadows i think so it knows i'm here it knows my name i didn't let go of this well into the fourth season multiple times they bring this up it knows my name when we get into season four and leta and everyone's on the white star it saws it knows our name and it never ever turned into anything so i'm still upset like it's it's a that's a big deal thing break off i can't pull you out without killing you run away don't look at it don't go into the light run away run away come back now, Yeah, Ben says the name thing is elaborated on in the Technomage novels. I have not yet read those. I can warn them. Yeah, and this specifically is the thing. I can see the president. Her telepathy. Mr. Rates, you're seeing the shadow of things long gone. That's a pretty detailed in-color shadow there. I've been dead for so long. The power's now yours, Clark, Mr. President. We freaked out over that being Morton. Yeah. Yeah, because we knew he was plugged in with the senator and stuff, But like to be at that level of everything. Yeah.

[50:13] I do not understand. A normal human mind should not have been able to do that drawl i'm avanova i saw it all the image i saw the message can you record it yes but do it please it's the proof we've needed that president santiago was assassinated that clark was behind everything we've got it unfortunately proof doesn't always uh equal evidence guilt i guess yeah there's some chatter in the in the council chambers chat on the name knowing the name and quintessential jms line and they go into more detail in the Technomage novels.

[50:47] Which is great. And I'm interested in that stuff. But again, and I'm positive that we talked about this on our first time conversation, but that concept of knowing a person's name reverberates through so much through religion, through scripture, through the Tolkien novels, Harry Potter, right? You know, you can't speak the name. And there's just so many things with the name. And I just remember being so excited at this point of like, oh my God, they're going to go to this level of like individual connection and infiltration and uh nothing and just like Suzanne says there too also the end of any time Ivanova's telepathic things matter at all not a drop dead though they followed up on it I appreciate the help captain I can't imagine what happened to scramble my lock code well security should have it open in a little while can I fix you a drink oh god yes please oh I like your quarters it's a bit larger than standard So here's what I want to know is, did they get a Playboy centerfold who clearly has no problems taking their clothes off in front of the camera to come play this role because of what's about to happen?

[51:55] Or did they write this in because of that? As I said, we must all do our part. Perhaps now you find the presence of a political officer a bit more appealing. It's literally the only thing she knows to do. Hey, things aren't going my way.

[52:20] Dude he was full on making out with her and he eye rolled no there's not it's great for first box like dude so uh if you could just wait two seconds i just need to go take a pill real quick and uh i'll be right back hopefully he doesn't need that at this point my usual timing so it's still so young it's not what it seemed good luck captain i think you're about to go where everyone has gone before it's so good so did they say all right now this is i'm just genuinely interested in this so they use like little sticky things and they kept falling off of her yeah did they just eventually go without and just run the show without like and just let it go let it all go and they didn't say what they had to do they didn't say i'm curious yeah as i assume here she's only she's only nude on top like like in real life like in the yeah i'm assuming she's only nude on top she's there's no reason they never there's no reason to be not on the bottom right um so yeah i think yeah i've i've thoughts why did she have to be naked why couldn't it just be like i'm in my undies like look at this and all that but there come on jeff there is a different level of forward between standing there in your undies and standing there butt ass naked yeah one of those is wildly inappropriate right but everything about her is wild this whole government is wildly inappropriate like you know what.

[53:41] I want to dive into that a little bit. Going to your underwood would be totally – Sorry, folks. Sorry, folks. I did not mean for this to turn into one of these. Go ahead, Jeff. Going down to your underwood would be totally sufficient for what she is trying to accomplish. The one tool I have is this body, and I'm making it very clear that it is now available to you. But this government, just like Julie Massante, can't do what's adequate. They have to go too far. And so she's like, I'm just going to take it all off and do this. So I think she's very indicative of the Clark regime. Well there's also a thing and we talked about this a bit in the first go around but i think it bears repeating here she can get him to sleep with her okay uh and that's her goal he's on her side he sleeps with her he has now lost any credibility to be against them whatsoever he sleeps with her he can't just kick her off no not anymore he's like everything about what she's trying to do honest and and forcing him to their side whether he agrees with it or not hinges on him sleeping with her, right? Yeah, she couldn't convince him, so yeah, sleep with me. So why stop at the underwear? If this is where we're going, just go. Yeah. Get it done. And Ben makes a fantastic point. She was actually never wearing any undies in the first place. So Roland Commando. Are we talking about Julie Masante or are we talking about Cherry, whatever her name is? Sure.

[55:02] To quote an earlier thing, why not both? Chicky for the win, both in real life and in fiction. That must be colder in here than I thought.

[55:13] I'll fix it. Is he talking about her or himself? Himself. I think. I don't think it's... I think he's got too much class to just insult her like that. Which is clearly... Are you kidding me? No. That is exactly what Sheridan would do. I just got called off station on business. Very last minute. I gotta go. Tell them to set course for Sigma 957.

[55:38] I wonder if there's like a... I want to know how much of the Minbari language JMS has created. Yeah, I was just saying, they have the whole Klingon thing. Is there a Minbari thing? Before coming here, I was authorized to begin implementing certain changes. You are empowered to examine station publications to ensure that they're ideologically correct. We've revised the rules of evidence to make them more flexible. Isn't all this a little extreme? Yes. Yes, it is. I shouldn't be telling you this yet, but in the coming months, certain individuals will be purged from their government... Such good manipulative tactics. I'm going to tell you a thing I shouldn't tell you. I'm letting you in. Even vying for alien governments. With our basic freedoms at stake, no response can be too extreme. There may be some minor and temporary abridgments in the traditionally protected areas of speech and association, but only until this crisis is over. Always temporary. We're so good at rolling those things back when it's time. So things we didn't discuss in the first run. The idea of suspension of due process. Something we're facing right now, at least in our country. Yeah. I don't know where that is. Other countries as well. Maybe varying degrees. I'm unfamiliar with it in other countries, but it, I mean, this is a fundamental core thing for us here. It was written into our initial constitution. Well, I guess the initial amendments of the constitution, suspending freedoms like that because everything else is at stake. Like this, this is the playbook. Yep. Everything. Oh, and, and the only savior is me. And we have to eliminate all these little things that are protections in order for us to do our job. Things that make it hard for us. Yeah.

[57:04] Or impossible. And you can't disagree. You have to be loyal and test those sorts of things. You know, the first time we watched this, Jeff, it was more than 12 months ago. Oh, it was quite a while ago. Yeah. Things are different today than when we first watched this. And we were flabbergasted when we first watched this. We're seeing real life right now. And I'm not exaggerating. Nope. I'm not making political statement here. I am making an observation of fact. This is why everybody should watch sci-fi. Absolutely. It should be mandatory viewing all the way around. I work in a place where things like due process plays a real role. And I'm just going to present this. I'm going to be super crystal clear. It's never okay to suspend due process ever.

[57:47] It's not. But I want to present the other side just for thought, right? So I used to manage a program that ran background checks and specifically on providers of care, like nursing facilities and things. And so a thing that happens is I'm working at a nursing facility and I abuse a resident there and it was intentional, whatever. And they find out, they launch an abuse investigation, I get fired. And abuse investigation is still going on. I might get substantiated for perpetrating that abuse, but because that has an impact on my future employment and other things, I have the right through due process to appeal that finding. But in the meantime, that takes time. So in the meantime, I go work for another nursing facility. I just don't tell them I worked at this other one, so they never call for a reference or anything like that. My substantiation hasn't exhausted its due process, so I'll still pass a background check. I can now continue to perpetrate harm. I've got a solid, I don't know, six to 12 weeks to go and hit time and time again and do stuff.

[58:51] And the government, we, the government, can do nothing to stop that because of due process. Brent, doesn't it make sense? Here's where I'm being ridiculous and presenting the other side. Brent, doesn't it make sense to suspend some of that due process because vulnerable people are actively being hurt? And if we were to suspend this, we could, we couldn't, but we could stop that harm from happening. I had to sit in these spaces where attorneys were just like, yeah, that sucks that that's happening. It is straight up illegal to do anything about that. It is against the core fabric of this country and how it was built and.

[59:30] Here we are. Jeff, it is, it is unconscionable to me that this is real life. At the same time, I feel powerless. I feel weak. I feel unable to do anything about it. I don't use social media to make announcements or make political statements or anything like that. The only tool I have is this microphone. The only tool you have is to make a microphone. So Jeff, I'm not speaking for you, but I will say suspending due process, going after folks and, and all of this stuff, Everything she's talking about here, everything is wrong. 100%. It's immoral. It's immoral and it's unconscionable. And I dare say it's unconstitutional. And the person solely responsible for it, maybe not solely, the person mostly responsible for it is the president. I'll let you determine which president I'm talking about. It's fair. But in this situation, the president at least exclaims he's in control of everything. Everything. Everything happens at his direction. Therefore, he is responsible for everything that happens. And these sorts of things, the logic that this person is throwing out here, chicky, is illogical at best. And again, me speaking for me, it's wrong and it's immoral and it's unconstitutional and inconscientable. And we're all going to have to answer for this probably sooner rather than later.

[1:00:48] And may his – I mean, did we forget McCarthyism? Did we forget so many things? 50 years ago you know like i just it's it's in the last 100 years there are so many examples of this globally yeah it yeah it all has done has resulted in in harm and i think you know we say tongue-in-cheekly that you know anytime someone says it's for the greater good it's not you know or whatever there is no tongue-in-cheek here any person who says we need to suspend due pro.

[1:01:17] We're being threatened. So this is the path we're taking. That person is the enemy. That person is wrong. That person is why there's pain in this world, why things are how they are. It is, let me say this in a different way. I don't care about words like do profit. That's all legal, whatever. I'm going to suspend acknowledging your humanity. We have to suspend acknowledging your humanity because our ideas are being threatened. Well, not just your ideas, but you honestly, your pocketbook. I mean, ultimately. Yeah that's what it comes down to my comfort that's really what it is yeah that's really what it is it's i don't want to wear a mask all right it's it's it's baby stuff like that yeah yeah no you're absolutely right jeff absolutely right way to call it out for exactly what it is yeah head on and thank you for like acknowledging like we do feel weak powerless whatever all we can do at this point is call it what it is yeah and that feels plus and if you have thoughts and you want And if you have thoughts and you want to email us, do it. Please. Badnerds at gmail.com. That is the real email address. I usually give fake ones out here. That's the real email address. Email us. Do it. And honestly, we've put this out there before. Not so that we can argue and do whatever. If you think we're wrong, I'm genuinely curious about why you think that. Help me. I want to understand how you could think this is an okay way to pay. We had a member of our community that- He wrote a book. Yeah, literally wrote a book. And sent it to us. And it was.

[1:02:45] I don't agree with a lot of what was in there, and I view the factual circumstances of history as something different, but it was reasoned, it was thought out, and it was presented in a well-done way, and I very much appreciated it. And I wish that I had more time to engage with it because he spent so much time with it, and it's so much appreciated.

[1:03:05] It was great yeah it was great to be able to to kind of go through that and it let me see some things from a different perspective exactly there are things that i consider differently, yeah exactly and it reconfirmed a lot of a lot of uh pre-presumptions that i had had which i think explains a lot so yeah and that's not a negative that's that's just you know how do you get to this point this is actually how i think we get this is how it happened it kind of it confirmed that. So anyway, back to the episode that this brought this up again, that was not stuff that we dealt with the first time around. So yeah, glad you brought it off that have been betrayed on nearly every level. And it is going to take the efforts of every loyal citizen to keep earth safe and ideologically pure project real quick project. And this might get, I don't know, some people upset. We need to take this scene and take out all the backdrop and then put like the white house press room background behind her that's not hard we can make that happen yeah i think i think that would be a good thing to do she kind of looks like another certain blonde female anything yet talks out of the side of her mouth saying a lot of the same things don't have to keep busy every moment of every day god preach preach change in discussion to include my personal life i have to be authorized to talk to you like a person just running from don't you have anything to do nope i'm all yours what's that and it's really all he wants is to be all hers.

[1:04:33] Ron points out an infection all the way back to that episode you had to be pure occurring, yeah and look what happened to them do you see the shadows there like when we said uh-huh so i yeah because i just wanted to call that out you can see the stuff it has that vibe you know the the tendrils and the fingers and all that sort of stuff what's happening and it's, move us away face and shock i'm sorry i don't mean to keep pausing and going back but suzanne over in our council chambers chat has a great point you know we often bag on dr franklin a lot but we will praise richard biggs for his performance uh we can bag on chickie all we want and we can even talk about the weird inflections and cadence but can we talk about how much she nailed being a evil witch right yeah pardon my language and sorry for the bleep but can we talk about how much she nailed it in that scene they if that's the scene they had her read that's why they cast her in this role absolutely had nothing to do with her boobs.

[1:05:43] My name is susan avanova commander earth force the enemy that you fought before has returned In order to fight the Shadows, we've formed an alliance with others. The Great Machine on Epsilon 3, the Minbari, the Vorlons. Vorlons! Double Night Dog! Oh, I should have bleeped that, probably. Will you join us in a fight against the Shadows? Is that a yes or a no? They're not moving away. I'd say they were thinking it over. These are party tiki and disco first ones. I thought Diago dead for so long, I wasn't sure we could really pull it off. The power's now yours, Clark. Do they recognize that voice, you think? Sheridan does. He was so, like... God, that's it, isn't it? He hears that voice in his sleep. Who's been looking for all this time, and it practically walks in the front door. Zog. Zog? What do you mean, Zog? Zog what? Zog yes? Zog no?

[1:06:44] Zog, Zog, Zog, Zog, Zog. Zog, Zog, Zog, Zog. I am not letting them leave here without saying yes. Really? And how do you propose stopping them? Do you take no for an answer, Jeff? Well, I need to. I absolutely do. I'm like, oh, no? Okay, fine. I'm not. I'm out. My job's not to convince you. No, I meant the Vorlons. Open a comm channel now. I said I'd ask. I asked. The Vorlons said that you wouldn't be up for a fight like this. In fact, they said in the last war, they carried you. Did most of the work. Well, you took most of the credit for it. They said that if you got involved with this one, you'd just get hurt. It's nice to see pettiness never evolves out of you. Come to think of it, we've got the Vorlongs. We don't need much more help, do we? The Vorlongs are really pretty close to perfect, aren't they? And strong.

[1:07:35] Yeah, whatever. Listen, I'll be sure and give them your message as soon as I get back. In the meantime, you have a nice flight. We'll be sure and send you a message as soon as the fighting is over.

[1:07:47] Do you see that smile she had there? Yeah. It's bigger than we are. That was rough editing, though. The one shot to the other. Her face was completely different from one shot to the next. Call our name. We will be here. Is that Joe Hendry? And we never do. They do. Do they come back? Yeah. During the war? They're in the Battle of Koryan 6. Were they? Did we see that? Yeah. We'll see it again here we'll see it here in about six months the joe henry thing i heard you say that.

[1:08:22] I dig that gimmick so much. Dude, that is such a great gimmick. It really is. It's so dumb, but it works. The death of President Santiago was not an accident, but an assassination planned from within, and further, that then-Vice President Clark was involved in this. And this is the reason ISN gets taken over. The evidence is currently undergoing tests designed to determine his authenticity. Hey, take away their broadcasting license. Several Senate committees in Earth Dome will hold closed hearings to discuss the issue and are strongly urging the appointment of a special prosecutor to evaluate the evidence. If only that actually meant something. I expected to be tense out there today. Just keep everybody calm. It's amazing. I can't believe it. It's got to be a mistake, right? Yeah, well, we'll see. Is there something wrong, Chief? Yeah. Yeah, there's something wrong. Okay. This is a great conversation with Zach and Garibaldi, and I don't want to lose it. So I'm going to say this before we get past this. Jeff, what are the greatest two characters on this show? That's a loaded question. Londo and Jakar. It's Londo and Jakar. Hands down. All right. They'll go cross board. Why is it Londo and Jakar?

[1:09:23] Because of each other. They make each other amazing. And what is it about that that makes each other amazing? Conflict. Aside from the strength of Peter Jurassic and Peter Jurassic. But the characters themselves. But it's the conflict. Yeah, the conflict. And their arcs are perfectly intertwined. Okay. Which Talia was the best Talia ever? Evil Talia. Okay. This lady would have been a great addition to that. Why do we not add into our main cast put people on the same space in confined spaces that are naturally putting in conflict you see what happens when it's put londo and jakar in an elevator and watch man it's magic it's magic why do shows not allow this kind of conflict within their main cast so often you're right you know what i mean i just it's it's.

[1:10:12] Beautiful stuff man well it's the it's the hero thing it's the dvd cover i can't put the villain on the dvd cover that doesn't sell unless it's darth vader i was gonna say you literally could be the entire darth vader the entire helmet of darth vader is the dvd cover and you're good can shape the dvd cover into the helmet of darth vader and you will sell yeah you you put it on a little thing and make his head fall back and little candy pop out of his neck and it will sell right because it's darth freaking vader like outside of star wars because they a lot of the stuff and i'm not a starth maul you know he's very marketable but outside of star wars where's the villain on the cover because people there's the hollywood mentality is well they want heroes no actually want really good stories.

[1:10:56] Like wells or masante i think masante honestly naroon i mean think about naroon and naroon died when he went good yeah and that was fine and and him good was a little ridiculous to go out yeah yeah yeah yeah and we made fun of him there at the end because all of a sudden he went from somebody who was very believable to like sorry james the worst that was not good writing there at the end right no or maybe it was good writing and bad acting i don't know which bad directing something didn't work there it didn't work there sorry i hope you actually agree with me in the But I haven't done that. But yeah, I think that she'd been a fantastic addition. And in fact, what I envisioned, like there's that iconic moment in Severed Dreams of Hologram Sheridan doing it. Right at the end of that, you have that iconic scene. And afterwards, she walks in and he's like, get out. And that's the end of Julia Masante on base. But it puts an exclamation point. Crusade. He had, what was his name? Ed Wells. The scientist guy. No, the scientist guy. Oh, shoot. What was his name? he was one of the main cast members he worked he worked for for ipx yeah max something yeah that guy oh my god what did he bring to that cast so much yeah eventually like once once he got a chance he got into it yeah my gosh so what is that isler thank you thank you come on i know you had a private meeting with her i know she's been asking questions look.

[1:12:20] I didn't tell her anything. Okay, little stuff, stupid stuff. What am I supposed to do? Play dumb? I work for these people. Yeah, well, you were working for me a hell of a long time before you joined Nightwatch. Now, look, after what happened to me before, it took a long time before I could trust anyone again. I thought I could trust you. Don't make me have any second thoughts, huh? You don't trust me, chief. What are you talking about? What's a code 7R, huh? I looked it up in the books. It ain't there. It's a booty call. I have to wonder, what's going on? night watch says the only people who have to worry are the ones with something to hide yeah first time around i had issues with this right yeah i'm actually you actually had really great words for it i was about to repeat it for you oh please do no do because i have a different take on it now so oh do you yeah your your original thought here was that it doesn't have to be binary the the the ability for garibaldi to look at him and be like hey you're right good on you you've picked up on something there is something there unfortunately i cannot tell you what it is right now. It's not that I don't trust you. It's just for other reasons that I cannot go into. This is not something I can say. This has nothing to do with trust.

[1:13:23] And then you said something to the effect of, but you can trust me that if what this is ever affects you, I will let you know, and I will take care of you on this. And I need you to trust me with that one. Like it is not a, if you trust me, you'll do this. If you trust me, you'll do this. It is not necessarily binary like that. That's what you said back then. What are you saying now? This is the indoctrination of Zack into Nightwatch. He's rubbing up against, he just got told, hey, there's some ideology out there that's damaging and we're being betrayed and there's this stuff going on. And now he's confronting Garibaldi and he's seeing a wall. This isn't Zack talking. This is Wells. This is Massante. This is him being maybe they're right. It's kind of confirming what they said. Exactly. In his brain, right? Like, oh, here's what that is. Could be. Could be. You got something to hide, chief. you got a charge to make make it otherwise i don't have time for this no i don't have a charge to make damn it i'm just trying to get through this thing and it ain't easy i'm walking a tightrope here and i thought you'd understand boy was i a jerk.

[1:14:30] We made a little bit of a big deal out of the name of the ship here. The Loki. We also said we should pay attention to the names of the ships versus who's on the ship. Yeah, there's definitely some alignment. That would be a great podcast topic. Yeah, tie them together. Well, taking a look at the very ship names and who was on each ship. Why does she not come back? She should absolutely come back. Oh, you loved this scene, Jeff. Just a second. Oh, it's Jakar coming in. Read this. You know, good on Jerry Doyle. He's pretty ripped, dude. He's okay, okay. Lights, low. I told you I could help. The Book of Jaquan. Read it. We'll talk afterward. I don't read Narn. Learn. Learn. So great. I love that. He hates me. I like that he gets a coffee stain on this thing. Injikar freaks out. That's why they're doing this. Jeff, I don't know if you use a robe or a shirt that you take off before you go to bed or something like that. I do. I disrobe somewhat. And I don't put the thing I just disrobed on the foot of my bed. No.

[1:15:47] All right, Brent, voices of authority. We just finished it up. Any thoughts come to mind for you? You want to dive into? Man, this show makes me do stuff that I don't want to do. Oh, really? This show forces me to confront things that I want to say I'd rather not confront. Oh, that's sci-fi. Puts it right in your face. I love it and I hate it all at the same time. Yeah. There are things. I walked into this intending to be like, well, I'm not talking about this kind of stuff. I'm not talking about this stuff. It's everything. We've already talked about it all. Oh, no, wait. We didn't talk about it all. Here's this new thing with new information that's changed over the last few years, since we watched this the first time, like honestly, honestly.

[1:16:23] That's one that's amazing writing on the part of jms that that this can be active in a lot too that.

[1:16:32] Absolutely sucks that this is actually describing where we are that we haven't gone forward and gotten better that we've actually regressed well honestly the where we were it's where we are right like he copied lines from what is now 70 some odd years ago said them 25 years ago and they are spot on right now describing what we're going through today in many ways and that's not an exact here's the thing it's not an exaggeration it's not hyperbole it is exactly what we're seeing today yeah i found one message i would like to talk about okay and this is not a good message not a hopeful message but it is about hope well sort of i found this line very interesting from sheridan at the very end he and vonover talking about you know they got the thing out there and and the truth is out there right and here's what he says sheridan says i hope i copied it down the right way he says the truth is out all we can do now is hope that it does some good and i would love to believe and this is probably the the the fanciful star trek person in me the dreamer i would love to believe that the idea that because the truth is out there the truth will out right and people like it will it will come to come to light and good the right things will happen because the truth is coming out and sometimes when the truth comes out it doesn't nothing good actually happens right you know um actually and i don't want to say nothing good sometimes when the truth comes.

[1:17:59] Out the truth is out and that's that nothing happens nothing happens you can.

[1:18:04] Have hearings you can have congressional parliamentary things lots of theater You can take things to court, but nothing actually happens. And that's also true.

[1:18:16] That doesn't mean that the truth shouldn't come out and it shouldn't continue to come out. That doesn't mean it should not. It should. Yeah. It should. But that's why the whole truth should come out. Not just the partial truth, not the redacted truth, not the truth that the people who are actually holding the redacting pen want you to see. Yeah. That's why the whole truth should come out. Might do something, it might not. But I tell you what, not having the truth come out will never make positive change happen. Absolutely. Yeah. There is no hope that it will do some good if it doesn't come out. How about you, Jeff? What'd you get you on this one? I got a more hopeful message actually on this. Did you? It's Jakar. Jakar almost played for laughs in this episode a little bit, his desperation to know what's going on. But he sees the bigger picture and knows that he can contribute. He has two sides. He has the side of my people need help and you all are doing something and I have to do everything in my power to help my people. But when Garibaldi kind of lays it out to him as he's able to, he's like, well, I can add value. I can do something. I just have to figure out how, and he does. And I think the message in this is that every single person, like we're all valuable. You know, you are valued and you matter, right?

[1:19:28] You have to sometimes be persistent. You have to sometimes find that way that you're doing it. Jakar does it. And like that moment of him handing in the book and telling him to learn how to read Narn, that has changed as impacts that reverberate. Not massive impacts, but impacts nonetheless that change things because he took the time to do it. You should do the same. That's messages.

[1:19:50] Now, Brent, never mind. I did this last time. You did. I'm doing great. I'm totally fine. I'm good. you know what we're doing though Jeff what are we doing we are creating the 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 3 Jeff I have to ask before we rank it do we like this episode I like it Jeff I love this freaking episode yeah but it pisses me off yeah that's part of why I like it so much I'm sitting here right now having watched this and I'm pissed off in all the right ways yeah all the good ways what an incredible episode of television to just nail something between the eyes man it's brilliant brilliant writing acting even asante when she needed to be she was perfect and here's hoping that the next time we watch this episode this is a thing of the past and this is not something we're going we're on the better side of this right the next time we see this episode and that we're not more down the we're not more down into the chapters and weeds of 1984 we're not watching this episode and wishing that's where we were oh man it'd be great if we were still just doing that so Jeff you do get to rank this dude, And the question is, where do you rank this? Where are you going to put this, that 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5, season three, for the second time anyway? Our current ranking right now, top four. Number four is convictions. Number three is matters of honor. Two is a day in the strife. Number one is passing through Gethsemane.

[1:21:20] Jeff, where does this one go? You know, when we came into this recording, I actually did know I was going to be ranking it, even though I don't know how to read a run sheet. I was like, this was probably not going to go so high. Like, I remember being, it's okay, right? Like, it hits some stuff, but it doesn't necessarily matter that much in the scope of whatever and stuff. But the timing of this one, for one, and also, I think, understanding more the impacts that it does set up. Like, this is a huge foundation. Like JMS said, this really sets up in a meaningful way things that are going to happen down the road in this show. Yeah. This was entertaining. The acting was great. This made us feel exactly what it was supposed to make us feel and in a brilliant way uh which is why this is going to be the number two episode are you sure i am 100 sure no stop are you sure 100 i would dare say you're thinking one you're not you're not going to like me for this i'm not i believe this episode potentially we could we can discuss this this this episode has more bearing on the overall story of Babylon five. Okay. This episode defines more of what's happening here with the story of Babylon five.

[1:22:30] More than Garden of Gethsemane. This episode is more impactful, carries more of a message than Passing Through Gethsemane does. Now, I know you and I have a very soft spot in our heart for Passing Through Gethsemane. And we both kind of said last, oh, this is going to define the season. It's going to define where we were. I would dare say this does it more so than Passing Through Gethsemane. But I'm not ranking this one. You are. To which Jeff just went, shut up, Brent. Yeah, it's good for you. It's good.

[1:23:00] All of the things. But I think this is a question of passing through Gethsemane is a powerful philosophical episode, right? Like it puts into actual play the justice versus vengeance thing, but it leads to philosophical and ideological conversation that's deep and challenging and things. That, I believe, reverberates through to the very final episode of Babylon 5. It's not plot point. It's the, the point of everything. Voices of authority is real life. This is a thing we watched in the episode that is actually happening and has happened. It's, it's not, there's no philosophy. I mean, there's ideology to it, but the conversation isn't philosophical. The conversation is, this is happening. And these are the things that are happening because of this thing. And I think that's super valuable. And I think it's one of the things, like you said, it's why science fiction is so great. But I think that there are episodes coming up that do more in the question of the Clark regime, the shot, all of the things and voices of authority does. And I, not only a soft spot for the Gethsemane piece, but I enjoy those philosophical, less like more unanswerable questions. It's your ranking set, bud. You put it where you want. I'm just building an argument that it possibly could go over passing through Gethsemane.

[1:24:25] No, I, I, it's number two, right? Number two means it could have just just said, I hear everything you said. And I summarily reject it. It's number two. No, I don't, I don't reject it at all. I hear everything you say and passing through Gethsemane is still number one. Fair enough. There you go. There you go. Fair enough.

[1:24:43] Oh, my friend, my friend, this is why I love doing this. Right? It's great.

[1:24:47] All right. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for voices of authority. Next week, we were watching an episode called dust to dust.

[1:24:55] Now, Jeff, going through this for the very first time, we made predictions based on title alone, having no idea what the episodes were about. Do you remember what this episode is about? I remember what it's about. Dust to dust? You do? Okay. We're not talking about that right now. What I want to know is what did you think it was going to be about? My prediction, right? Well, of course, I went to the ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I thought based on the mention of Ivanova and her latent telepathy and stuff in this one that we would really be exploring more of her childhood specifically like the death of her dad and how like that kind of gives us a chance to explore her childhood and the impact of being a latent telepath, which we now know never even gets brought up again. Yeah. I mean, I saw someone in the chat earlier said that this is the final time we ever even talk about her being a latent telepath like it never comes up again and i'm like really i don't remember that but wow i thought we were going to follow it up right afterwards in the next episode and get some more because it's going to be a big deal but you know there are lots of things that i thought we would follow up in the next episode and it never happened it never happened what did you remember what you predicted on this one oh jeff i didn't just make a prediction i made a guarantee yeah and i made a promise i called my shot and it went right where i remember this yeah At the beginning of the episode, I said, Jeff, I'm going to be right in this next one.

[1:26:20] I said, dust is the drug. It's the drug on Babylon 5. We've learned this way back in the gathering, the pilot episode. I don't think we've heard about dust since then.

[1:26:32] Yeah if we have it's been way over here in passing but here's what i said i said this is a story about drugs moving through the station killing people i also said it's going to be a one-off episode and it'll probably be in the bottom half of the season ranking we won't love it it's just my guess where where did dust to dust i will just say not the bottom half okay i'm actually wondering if because i feel like i said that about this episode you wonder if it's the same.

[1:26:56] Prediction i wonder yeah i'm wondering if maybe i was actually talking about this episode in that particular moment transcripts can be weird uh but no but basically i said this is about drugs moving through the station killing people off well if you want to find out where exactly it ranked you can join us right here next week when we talk about dust to dust and we will bring up that ranking we will also rank it again here in the second time ranking the objectively correct second time ranking uh you don't want more objectively and even more correct even more correct than it was before when it was still objectively correct 2x 2x correct exactly like It's so correct, it's super correct. It's ultra correct.

[1:27:29] And you'll see that next week. You don't want to miss that, right? So make sure you're subscribed wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening so you get that thing right away. You get the notification of it. If you, like I said earlier, if you want to see our unedited stuff that we're doing, if you want to be a part of these recordings, right? We have our council chambers here with us every time. They've been handing us some gems that we've been bringing in here and a lot of other great stuff that didn't quite make it into our conversation. But if you want to be a part to those things, you can check out our Patreon. There's a link down in the show notes. It's patreon.com slash badnerds. But acknowledging that there's a financial hit there and not everyone's in a position to help that way, it's totally cool. You can also help simply by sharing this show. There's a little share button, whether you're on YouTube or in whatever podcast app, just go ahead and hit that and send it to somebody that you think could enjoy it and would also benefit from listening to two dudes watch Babylon 5 for the second time. So with that, I'm going to hit so we're gonna see you next hey jeff yeah what is uh what is up hey dog ziggy zog ziggy ziggy zog zog hey zog zog before you know you don't zog zog zog zog you don't zog anything.

[1:28:35] Chicky. What is the Chicky story? Oh, man. Listen, Jeff, it's a good story. This is the end of the show. We just don't have time right now. So we're going to have to catch this next week. Okay? Remind me next week. I promise you, you want to hear this story. Just ask me next week. We'll move this to next week. I want everybody out there to hear it because it's a good story. So can't do that right here at the very end. But remind me and we'll catch it next week. Okay.