War Without End Parts 1 and 2 | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time. Everything changed after that. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. That's right. And you know what we're doing for the first time for the second time? Watching for messages. Yes, we are. There could be some of the ones that we picked up on the first time. Could be all new ones. We have different understandings. We're different people now than we were just a few years ago, Jeff. New things come up. But one thing that is not going to change is our knowledge of future events of the show. Jeff and I have been through this. This is our second watch through. We're piecing all the things together. So a bit of warning for anyone out there who has not seen this show for the first time for themselves. Stop. Turn this off. Don't go any further, because as far as Jeff and I are concerned from this point forward.

[1:57] Anything from any point in the franchise, any point in the timeline, extra canonical, in-universe, out-of-universe, all that stuff is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about, and we will be talking about it. So consider this your spoiler warning. If you're still here, why are you still here? Go. Why are you still here? Go. Go. Go anywhere. We're watching, Brent, a two-parter.

[2:23] Two-parter. Two-parter. We're going to watch. Wait, Jeff, we don't do two-parters in one episode on Babylon 5 for the first time. But yes, we do. Because this time, everything has changed.

[2:37] Except the things that haven't changed at all. We're watching War Without End. We are. This was a big poll in the tent for us. You know one thing that's changed, Jeff, that I was just thinking about? Like, even our recording spaces. Dramatically they have changed. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. And that? That has nothing to do with this. It does not. Thank you to Patreon for so much of that. Yes. We'd like to upgrade reinvesting back into the show. Absolutely. Absolutely. All for you all. At the end of every episode, the first time around, we would guess what the next one is going to be about based on the title alone. Do you remember what you predicted War Without End was going to be about? I did. And I still need this like alternate universe version of the story. I know. I think we both have some good all universe ideas here. Basically, basically what I said was Babylon 5 is going to turn into Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. And what I mean by that is Babylon 4 is going to turn into a telephone booth like the TARDIS. No, not really. But what would happen is what we've seen, what we've learned is there's been all of these.

[3:41] Wars with the shadows throughout time. There's been these different times where there was a thousand years ago, 10,000 years ago. And what's going to happen is Babylon 4, the station that we remember was Zathras, was going to bounce through time. And basically it was going to collect the heroes of each one of those wars and bring them all to this point in time forward into of the future for this one big final battle with the shadows where because what what what they've said is they have only been defeated they've never been destroyed and this was the story of the shadows finally being destroyed so that was my theory as far as what war with and that and that way that's the war without end the war just keeps going and the war is gonna uh be be done that way or it would be one of those like maybe each person was left in their timeline but like we had to sync up all the timelines i think we had voyager episodes like this and prodigy episodes star trek stuff like we're gonna sync it all up so something happens throughout the course of space time but i liked my first version better how about you jeff what'd you predict well i uh ben in our council chambers chat our council chambers tier subscribers are invited to our recordings he does make the point that even though we didn't get the bill and ted story we did get socrates.

[4:58] Truth listen crossovers right crossovers the alternate universe is like it's right it's right there. It could just happen. You know, we, for my prediction, we had, uh, an idea earlier on in the series that the warrior cast of them and Bari were going to ally themselves with the shadows. Yeah. And I thought this is where that was going to happen. Essentially, Naroon was going to come on to Babylon 5, hot as ever, going for Delenn. Delenn is a criminal. She tore apart our council. She's tearing apart the fabric of our entire society. And I am here for her. And Sheridan was going to be like, nope, she's good. And that was going to send the warrior caste into the bosom of the shadows, leading to the Minbari attacking Earth and Babylon 5. So, Jeff, that idea, though, correct me if I'm wrong, that is actually a well-earned idea.

[5:53] I think so, yeah. Because wasn't JMS's original treatment and where he was leading the story, at least from the beginning, before things started getting wonky, was it the warrior cast was going to team up with the Shadows? I think so. Either way, the Minbari were going to. Or the warrior cast was going to do bad stuff, right? Yeah. The original treatment, Babylon 5, the series would end with the Minbari taking out Earth. Yeah essentially yeah yeah because the warrior cast took over yeah yeah yeah and so maybe it's okay maybe they're not allies but it's like a war on two fronts or something like that but so it's it's an earned prediction so i really i really like that i really like that so jeff those are some of the things that that's that's what we predicted but you and i also like did a podcast about this first time around yeah we did we did must have been in the past i'm in the future i don't remember this time stuff's getting me all well why don't we get into the tardis and why don't we go to the way back and see what you and i said actually said the first time around about this set of episodes let's do it yeah previously on babylon five for the first time.

[7:06] War Without End, part one. I am now more convinced than ever that Sinclair is Vaylin reborn. Or maybe, no, he is. Him going back in time. There it is. Yeah, he is Vaylin. That's why he's not coming back. Oh, and I called that so long ago, and it was just last week where I'm like, I give up. And then Londo turns around and talks about their minions and their dark servants. Who are these people that i don't think we've ever heard about and londo is bad all the way to the end there is no redemption for him that breaks my heart jeff jeff that's the episode man this is war without end part two let's go i was right i've been calling this all along i was so right that I have multiple microphones here for this. Think about the spectrum. The one who was is a full, appears to be a full Minbari. The one who is, is a Minbari human hybrid. The one who will be is a human.

[8:18] You and I also called another huge thing. We said Londo is going to get possessed by the shadows. Londo said, I've had a vision and Jakar and I will die with our hands around each other's throat. In no way, shape or form did any of us ever think that that was going to be, hey, would you please kill me before this thing on my neck wakes up? And then while you're in the process of doing it, the thing wakes up and takes over my mind. And that's the thing that's actually trying to kill you instead of me. Did not see that coming at all. Right. And then you called it. Veer walks in, sees him lay in there, picks up the medallion or the crown or the whatever. And he's like, well, that was some female saying hello. And it made her drop the snow globe. Who is that person, Jeff? I'm betting Sheridan's ex rolled up in on Dillon is now the one, To come in and put the smackdown on everybody and reset the Great Council. There are these dark servants and minions that are still carrying on the cause. What is the cause? Galactic rule? Like, truly intelligent person can communicate it in a way that other people can understand. And wow, did Zathras do that?

[9:47] And now, the conclusion. Dude, I think we liked this episode the first time. It was okay. A little all right. It was okay. Have a good time watching us. Like, it's just like, now I was excited for this before. I'm even more excited because we were so excited. You know, you and I spent the first half of this run re-listening. Right. And now, thanks to one of our just most incredible community people, Dylan, we actually get to watch ourselves now because we just didn't think we would be able to do the watch thing. Yeah. And Dylan helped us figure that out. So thank you once again, Dylan. Jeff, just a couple of things I need to call out here, though, because we have to interact with that. We can't watch that and not interact with that. Move on. Yeah, some stuff. So a couple of things. One, you called Valen. Yep. You called it. You nailed it. Now, you guys know me. I can't just let you let that win, Jeff.

[10:42] Because you called it based on something else that I said. I did. You brought it up first. Well, what I had said, though, you put the pieces together, right? I said that Sinclair had the soul of Valen.

[10:58] And you came back and was like, no, no, no. He's Valen. You started actually with he has the soul of a Minbari. It was in Legacies. Oh, that's what it was. That's what it was. Yeah, you're right. He has the soul of a Minbari. And you're like, it's Valen. and then it just we kept going and built it all yeah yeah yeah so uh but man you did that and, just the if there's only one complaint i could give to the lynn in that recap video, why is jeff not jumping around like a fool in his room not part of that reclame you because we specifically said i don't go to our reactions okay fair enough yeah that would have been one to break the rules for you know what i one thing i do want you know what we need to do no you know what we need to do this week it's going to happen buddy you you make it you make a fool out of yourself like that it's going to happen we're going to clip that and that's going to be out this whole week once again people that was a very polarizing um moment no everybody was unified in just how we actually had people unsubscribed from our patreon because of it no yep no go back and read the exit things there's one where someone's like i don't want to watch a grown man run around I'm like an idiot and unsubscribed. And you know what? I'm glad. I hope they found what it is they're looking for out there. All right, Bono.

[12:18] We were always about, all the way to the very end, who are these minions and dark servants? We never forgot that. Right. Never forgot. Even when they said, here they are, we're like, well, who are they? For all the things that they've said and you and I held on to and they turned into nothing, like Garibaldi's secret mission. Yeah. Sheridan keeping the Epsilon 3 thing in his back pocket, Bester's whole thing about your war is now my war, like all of those things. This was one that paid off for us.

[12:56] Man. I was all about the redemption of Lana Malari. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's the main story of the, of the whole show. People have said, and rightly so, the story of Babylon five is actually the story of Lana Malari. And I don't think you're wrong about that. I think you're completely, you're completely, they're completely right about that. Jeff, I loved your thing and I don't think it turned out to actually be the thing, but I love, love, love what you said. The one who was, was Mimbari. The one who is, is a Minbari human hybrid. And the one who will be is a human. I love the symmetry of that. I think ultimately in the end, it was just, Hey, here's the guy who started the Rangers. Here's the person who's in charge right now. And that's the person who's going to be in charge in a couple of years. Yeah. I think it was just that simple. It was not like this, this whole like transition thing or this coming full circle because Sinclair is a human. He's not even a hybrid. He was a human who turned into a Minbari. Oh, what would it be if Sinclair turned from a human back into him? Like, you complete the circle. Oh, yeah, right. But I love that theory.

[14:04] But we had a good question. It's a good question that I don't really know that I'm clear on it right now. And if it's what I think it is, I kind of hate it. Okay. What is the cause? They've always been committed to this cause. If the cause is just galactic security. I think the cause was taking down the shadows. the cause was the vorlon's cause and turns out we needed to take out the vorlon too yeah because they're both a big bunch of babies who are just scared little we me me me i want my daddy i want my daddy jeff that's some of the stuff we hit from the first time around but buddy you i imagine there was a lot jms had to say about the set of episodes lay it on us what'd you find well i.

[14:46] There's quite a bit. I'm going to do most of it during the episodes themselves. I think it'll be more interesting that way. But a couple of neat notes that I wanted to pull was we talked a little bit before about how he needed to maneuver Babylon squared and war without end because of the changes in casting and stuff. He compared writing the two-parter itself to stuffing 20 pounds of potatoes into a 10-pound bag. He said it wasn't just- And you feel it in these episodes because they move so fast. Yeah, yeah. And the brilliance of it is they don't feel that way. Like you don't feel rushed through them. But he went on to say it wasn't just the writing. It was everything. In fact, in the editing bays and stuff, they called it the edit without end.

[15:38] He said that while they reused a lot of footage from Babylon Square, they actually had to reshoot a couple of pieces to match what happened with the changes. Um, the footage of the station exploding is from signs and portents. And that vision that, uh, that they provided there was like that timeline where Ivanova's freaking out and the distress call and everything. That's the timeline that was laid out in signs and portents. So this shows were now on a on a different timeline so alternate future because it's uh basically one one of many possibilities much like and we're just gonna follow one of those so when we do the the road home we go back and that's another possibility exactly from there and here's another possibility and so when we get a reboot jeff how does that make you feel you get a reboot of the show this one still exists you know because it's just a different alternate route it's actually one of the things i thought was so brilliant about the jj abrams that's what i was gonna say we did we've seen that happen before and it was it was it was, Good for what it was. Well, but whether you liked or hated the J.J. Abrams movies, putting it in an alternate timeline allowed everything that came before to be intact. Yeah. And you weren't beholden to what came before. You could just do your own thing. Yeah. And I thought that was brilliant. It was really brilliant. I think I agree. He made a note. He says he is often tempted to create Zathras's brother, Mathras or some such.

[17:06] He said if only for the look of terror in their eyes when he says zathras ah yes zathras was the quiet one in the family who knows might be something i revisit someday, an interesting note that uh yeah there's two this kind of interesting notes and then then we'll we'll get into it but we later on talk about uh the children of valen.

[17:32] Right? And that whole thing? Mm-hmm. He makes the note here that Valen did not have any children. And there's actually some differing opinions over what Valen's final fate actually was. So my understanding of that, and this is based purely on what I've heard from people because I've not read any of the books, is that Sinclair Valen wound up going off and living on some island somewhere with his wives and had a whole bunch of kids. And then those kids had a bunch of kids and those kids had a bunch of kids. And that to me is in my head what happens to him after everything settles down in the past. That's how the Triluminary can scan for his DNA. Right. So is there a change from when JMS said this to that? When we get to those episodes, we'll see if he says something different. Listen, canon is only canon until it's not. Yep. Last little interesting note, and I only pulled this one out because it pulled in Gary Cole from Crusade. Okay.

[18:34] So he noted when he first noted this when he brought Michael O'Hare back onto set and he and Bruce Boxleitner were spending time together. He noted that both Bruce and Michael are from Chicago. And then down the road realized that Gary is also. And in fact, not only are all three male leads from the same city, but two of them, he doesn't specify which two of them live just a few blocks away from each other. Like grew up or currently like grew up. Interesting. Yeah. All right.

[19:08] I thought that was kind of, kind of cool, but, uh, that is the stuff for now that, uh, JMS chose to share with us. Uh, what do you say we dive in to war without end? Let's get into it. I can't wait a second longer. So if you're joining us for the first time, I get it. Welcome. This is a heck of an episode to start with. So what's going to happen is Brent and I are going to bring the episode up. We're going to watch it right here with you. We're going to pause it. We're going to talk about it, dive into this stuff as it's happening. If you want to see the full, the unedited version of that, you can get that over on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening on an audio podcasting app or other app, other way, uh, you're going to hear that reaction. We're going to pull that audio down because we're going to have conversations in the middle of that. We don't want you to miss that. Plus, I don't know, maybe it's fun. Uh, but anyway, we're going to do that. And then obviously we'll be on the other side where we'll still talk about all those messages and thoughts and reactions and all that sort of stuff. Typical podcast style. So, Jeff, with that, let's get into War Without End, part one. Accessing file.

[20:27] Reminds me of She-Ra. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Tilsa. And Tilsa. I was sent to find you. The ancient books told us that on this day, no sooner, no later, we were to enter the sanctuary and open this. You know, now I see the ranger pin on his chest. Like, it glares at me right now. What an incredible reveal. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Did he know your name? It's our old friend. I love everything about this reveal from the, like, here's just dude in a hood to here's the name. And acknowledging that some people may have not come in until, you know, deeper into the second season or so. Like, you get that pause, and it's like, do I know that name? And then immediately into this slow lift, and it's just like, yeah. Awesome. Commander, we're picking up a distress call. Sector 14. It's impossible. Sector 14's been under quarantine for almost three years. That's where Babylon 4 disappeared. Thank you for explaining that. I was just about to try to clarify. This is not the Lion Station Babylon 5. They're all over the place.

[21:34] I know that voice. Commander, that's your voice. It can't be. Computer voice scan confirms it. That's you. What a cold open, man. The Babylon Project was our last best hope. That is a cold, cold open. Yeah. Also, just point of trivia. Did you know that in seasons three, four, and five, Londo didn't wear a wig? That was his natural hair. Yes so one of our council chambers did point out earlier that while the leader of the perhaps if you rangers is all no no or english shock one ranger one only these three were until za correct yeah we've learned that but they also said don't look into that too much don't yeah this was meant for me alone what a great ponderous look right tell the others pained their work in my absence he knows what's up it's this is the still like this is jeffrey sinclair yeah i don't know that that's michael o'hare but that is jeffrey sinclair when i first came here very i don't think anyone really trusted me you were the first where delen points i follow she pointed to you he's in love with the lynn too i have done nothing worthy of praise well with your help we've created something bigger than we are come what may the rangers will finish the work ahead take care with it I was calling Rathen. It's Rathen. Rithen. Riven. I heard him say Riven. Rithen?

[22:57] Right here, we are now looking at the only inconsistency between Walkabout and War Without End Viewing Order. Okay. What's Alkesh doing here? In my head, I was like, well, who said this is happening at the exact same time? This scene could have happened back before. Like, this could be happening while Kosh is getting... I'm sorry. Hold on. Tosh was not always on the station. Right? Yeah. There is nothing- There is not a thing in the world that tells me that Olkesh didn't leave the station and come over here to Mimbar to be here in this particular moment. Like, this is when he's gonna open the box. There is nothing about this that is weird to me. I have the strangest feeling. I will never see him again. Oh, but you're kind of- He is the closed circle. He is returning to the beginning. The beginning of what? Everything.

[23:47] So here is the inconsistency there on B5. He was a dick. Yes. Here. He was kind of cool, man. He kind of, he kind of had that cosh thing. Like he was sort of chilling and vibing. He didn't have that edge to him here. That maybe I give you as an inconsistency, but even that's like, he's in that mode there. He's in a different mode here. Yep. Maybe he's not, he was just really angry there and he's not normally like that. Well, he's here to guide the development really of the Minbari as we move into this next shadow war that they know is coming on her on B5. He's there to represent the Vorlon. Like those are those are different things. It's fair. And Dunderdall points out that the voice is very different as well. Yeah. But if I'm angry and I'm talking like this. Well, you know, it's a different voice than what I what I have. So it's Dylan wants us to discuss whether it's guiding or manipulating. We have.

[24:40] And we will. A signal's coming from Sector 14. That's where Babylon 4 disappeared. Ever since it was yanked through time to wherever the hell it was going, the area's been a mess. Time doesn't work right in there. So what if the signal is from the future? Captain, I'd like to check it out. I'll authorize it. Whoa. Sinclair. Ambassador Sinclair now. Will you be staying long? That is a far more interesting question than you might suspect. Actually, no, he won't because he's going to the other Babylon station. Right. Move along. So, Bonobo. I'll see you in about eight hours. Garibaldi heads out. JMS talked a little bit about the bad blood between Michael O'Hare and Jerry Doyle. Yeah. And he said that, if you remember right, at the end, at some point at the end of the second part, we kind of explain how they're never in the same place at the same time. Yeah. But it was a very intentional move to be like, hey, we're going to keep this a safe work environment for the both of you. Go do this, Garibaldi. I wonder if they even had them like on different days. Like, hey, don't come to work this day. That or just on. Well, they only had the one location to film. So, yeah, maybe. Yeah. That's. And the animosity there really was just a spillover from the first. Yeah. From the first season where I guess Jerry didn't know or necessarily understand what he was dealing with. And even if he was, he still was just didn't care. He's like, how come he gets to this stuff? And, you know, it does beg a question. If Michael hair never left, how long before Jerry would have left? Oh, yeah. That's good. Or gotten fired. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. No longer been with the show.

[26:09] And frankly, between the two, we kept the right.

[26:13] Like, Lord, it worked out. The story worked out. It really worked. That's that's the better way to say it.

[26:22] D'Lynn, where are you? You know what I mean? So Rithin was like, where D'Lynn leads, I will follow. Or whatnot, right? Yeah. I hate me thought if, like, everybody on Minbar loved D'Lynn. We are gray. Right? Like the way Lanier kind of has it. When Lanier walked in, he was like, oh, God, please don't be chrysalist again. It took me so long to clean that up. I'm still finding threads.

[26:48] She got a note, too. And we haven't had a shadow attack. Now, wait a minute. Is that not the note that she was given way back in season two remember when like like jerry doyle had the note uh or garibaldi had the note i think ivanova had a note and then dylan had a note and we saw that is that not that note from back then or is this a new note it's a new note the note they got those were on data crystals those were recordings captain i'm sorry to interrupt you must come with me to the white star at once also ivanova and one other who well the jms says that that the electricity was palpable when they filmed this scene. Oh yeah. Like the two had spent a tremendous amount of time together, just chatting, getting to know each other and. Meaning Bruce and Michael. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But the two of them on set together, like it was a really big moment for everybody on the cast and the crew.

[27:41] Okay. So you and I had a theory and I wonder if JMS spoke to this at all, that a lot of Michael o'hara's words here were or i'm sorry a lot of sinclair's words here were actually proxies for michael o'hara's words like when he's like hey i've really missed being here it's been a long time hey you've done a good job keeping a hold of my station like like a lot of these a lot of these things are really validating i'm trying to say metaphorical but it's not metaphorical no it's quite literal meta it's very meta uh kind of an idea does jms speak to that at all Not really. I mean, if he did, I didn't make a note. Fair enough.

[28:19] Looks like I got here just in time. You've done a good job looking after the place. I couldn't have wished for better. Delenn, how did you know that...

[28:26] That's not just about Babylon 5, the station. It's also about Babylon 5, the show. Sheridan, go. Captain, we've got Mr. Garibaldi on channel 2. Put him through. That was a little O'Hare there, too. Like, oh, shoot. I thought I'd try a long-range scan. Temporal Rift is twice as big as it was before. Any idea what's responsible? Yeah. It's being caused by an extremely powerful tachyon field being transmitted right into the center of the rift. Tachyons i know what tachyons mean and my dude there he is my dude dude needs a toothbrush you see a chisel just as zathras said not good definitely not good we must tell drall no so that was originally mathras but really we know it's zathras uh-huh yeah, Hey, we've seen that. That's another time.

[29:29] So this was intended to be the Minbari attacking the station. Yes. Initially. Back in signs and portents or before. Well, but even in Babylon squared when they filmed it, the idea was to be the Minbari. But now it's changed. not my favorite claudia christian acting moment frankly we were quite hard on her the first time around i remember but jms says a lot of people came and made comments about her losing control during this similar to we were she's military this is part of the job like she should be trained for this he says with her sure that she was about to die he wanted to release a bit of her held back emotions the vana was a fairly stoic individual but then he also said that Claudia played it a bit too hysterical at times. So a little bit of acknowledgement there. As Babylon 4 neared completion, the allies of the shadows recognized it for what it was and sent these ships destroyed, striking without warning, they would have succeeded.

[30:35] Dude that is like what the white star are you saying we stole babylon 4 but that was years ago yes and that is exactly where we must go i would say if you didn't take babylon 4 babylon 5 would never exist but then neither would babylon 4 so it never would happen it was me is me is going to be me i i kind of like that john with babylon 4 we will be able to save my people and yours Time stamp on the messages dated eight days from now eight days from now we go straight to hell, Unless you found some way to stop it stand by I've come a long way to be here for this I need to just turn around and go back again besides I think we'd work well together like butch and sundance lewis and clark, Lucy and Ethel. Lucy and Ethel. It's such a weird randomization of pulling three duos together. You know? Greatest adventure of all. Like all from the 20th century. Yeah. Although I very much appreciate the Lucy and Ethel one. Let's do it. Probably more so than the others. Share it into Garibaldi. I can see Butch. Okay. Let's play the game. We're going to play this game. We're going to play this game. We got to make it better. Lewis and Clark is the one that throws me off. Yeah. Butch and Sundance I get. Lucy and Ethel I get. Lucy and Ethel, especially when you add Zathras to the equation. Oh, absolutely, right? Imagine him. Because Zathras is now Fred or whatever.

[31:59] But give me a better one than Lewis and Clark that fits the other two. Okay. Bonnie and Clyde? Eh, that kind of had the lover thing going on. Maybe not. But I'm just thinking heist-wise. Oh, I do like the heist-wise. Kirk and Spock. What if you said Kirk and Spock? There you go, right?

[32:18] Hawk and animal oh the land it appears we're being followed he said he was sending along one of his aids sorry sorry very much apologizing zathras has great responsibilities no all those little ferrets on his jacket i was looking for the one says his name is zathras we don't know how he got aboard where he came from or what race he is i've never seen an alien like him before not the one great oh not the one not though not the one what not the one we've met the four on babylon four oh not yet no it was my that was zathras i am zathras.

[33:06] Report back to the station. Keep an eye on things while we're gone. What are you talking about? I should go with you. Negative. Report to base. No, somebody's hearing. You don't want to see him. You can't take the whole command staff on this one. You've done your job. Captain. That's an order, Mr. Garibaldi. This is the favor Sinclair needed. Will you make sure Garibaldi's not around? I just can't with that guy. Send him an email or something. All right. I did as you asked. I sent him home and didn't tell him you were here. That really is the favor he needed. Did you want to talk to him? More than you'll ever know. I got a lot of things I'd like to say to him, actually. It is so fun how different this stuff rings, knowing their relationship when we didn't know it the first time. They've earned through level seven and eight. Can't stop them. Look at all that hair. Jerry Doyle living his best life right here. Jeff, it's okay. I finally understand. The moment I was born for. Now go, go, go. Wait, wait. They're coming true. You know, it really does make me sad in real life, knowing that those two had such personal issues with each other that they could never work out, you know, like to the point they couldn't even be on set together for the most part, like unless they were absolutely required to be in the same shot, because you can do stand-ins and stuff. Yeah, I won't let it happen. I mean, even Shannon Doherty and Luke Perry were able to be in the scene together.

[34:25] Everybody get ready. Mr. Lanier, move us into the rift. Also, don't put this anchor in a place that could be easily broken. Maybe treat it with some care. Just think about 5,000 years ago. Just concentrate really hard and that'll do it. I mean, it does look like that's how the pilots are piloting. For the audio listeners, I just put my hands out and let them sit still. Because I'm controlling it through my thoughts. It's multi-knuckle manipulation they're doing. It's not fun to watch. I love this shot. Yeah. I love this shot. That's like his approval that he's okay with Sheridan taking his, not only his station, but his girl, frankly. Because that's supposed to be his girl. It was supposed to be. Fine, fine. Hey, hey. You missed all the excitement. Ambassador Sinclair was here. You kidding me, right? No. Where is he? He's gone. He took off with the captain and everybody else on the White Star. You know what clip I want to see? I want to see them not telling Jerry Doyle that Michael LeHair is back in this episode. And he comes in, and he doesn't have the script. Jerry Doyle is just like, what do you mean? It's a real reaction. That's the one I want. Those shadow fighters really are here somewhere. We have to find them. That's a great shot right there. I never really realized. Show me. That's everybody. All lined up. Peek-a-boo. Susan, Michael. Socks, Fast and Zip.

[35:51] I love that they went back to that. Yeah, that's good. Hello, old friend. Password confirmed. Stand by. I don't. Hello, Michael. Mm-hmm. By the time you get this, I should be long gone. I'm sorry I couldn't tell you I was here, but I had to leave something. I couldn't leave without saying goodbye. What's his background? You see, Michael, I won't be coming back from Babylon 4. He's in the set of Pirates of the Caribbean is what it is. What is that? It's the big bomb they're going to attach to the reactor. Firing range for automatic systems.

[36:29] The stabilizer! Right in my time anchor! Oh no. Oh no. Not good. Time stabilizer not on him. That's sworn but no one listened to the address no what do you mean unstuck in time where is he in the past in the future cannot say putting the future back on track may be our only chance to save him what's our status that's some commander sinclair right there i do remember thinking this this was a good we came here to do a job contrivance within the show to get sheridan out of the way, so Sinclair could sit in the captain's chair one more time. Right there, yeah. I mean, I can see that. But it works for the story. Like, it serves the story, but also... Ugh! Ugh!

[37:29] It makes me wonder if when those guys take those helmets off, does their hair just go like, I mean, talk about a severe case of helmet head, if not. As always, it's quite exceptional. Your timing? Just in time to die. You know what time it is? Time to die. What am I doing here? What are you? What I am doing is what someone should have done a long time ago. Putting you out of my misery. fitting punishment for your crimes what crimes here's the thing here's what we know this is all an act by londo crime of convenience right during your little war you drove away the shadows oh yes but you did not think to clean up your mess if a few of their minions their dark servants yeah we were to centari prime well where is the harm in that yes also londo you told him to f off when they came to offer help and stuff, so. Right. You want to see the harm? Do you?

[38:37] What's interesting with this is i remember the first time around we were so confused this is 20 years in the future after all this happened and there's still fires raging but when you read uh the the the centauri trilogy of books it's like oh yeah the war was actually still happening on centauri prime what's happening on centauri prime so the drach are actively working londo is a figurehead and nothing else they basically have a version of the the hitler youth set up and like it's this awful they're blowing places up they're building their own facilities just taking over centauri prime and while keeping years to do that they did it slowly because they um they wanted the people to want it essentially like they infiltrated and uh and there were ministers and stuff they had on the dole and it was i mean it's a fascinating deep story but they uh yeah they had stuff set up to blow up and it's filthy it took about 20 years for fear to end it all so it took another 20 years after this point for veer to end it all after the look this this is not far i don't think this is far from the end although it's been no it's not because londo londo says way back in like born to the purple gathering something like that i'm gonna i'm not dying for another 20 years yeah we're three years in and i think i think this is supposed to be 17 years in the future because i remember doing the math on that going wait a sec that's.

[39:57] Right when Londo's supposed to die. Yeah. Well, he dies a few minutes after this. He does, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And so then Veer becomes emperor, and then all of this just starts going away? Or it takes Veer another 20 years to get rid of all this? Veer has been spending time over the last 17 years doing stuff. And it will take him maybe a couple years into his emperorship to write this. To completely clear everything out. In fact, Veer and T-Moth. Really? She plays quite a role as well. Oh. It's a series worth reading. One character I say really should have come back. Agreed. And they did her beautifully. Good. In, in, in the series. And I think, you know, we have our, uh, vision of Londo is that the, the tragic hero, you know, he's the one who carries everything through the end. And the books double down on that specifically with team of where he's like, they, they kind of get back together or a little bit. And he's like, I can't, I, you can't be here. Bad things will happen to you if you're here. And so he just cuts her off.

[40:56] It's, yeah, it's hardcore. But he does that to keep her safe. Yeah. Again, we go back to that idea. Londo has all the power, but now he has to wear a mask. Yeah. Where before he didn't have to wear a mask, but he had no power. Yep. Exactly. I need Lanier to stay with the ship. Can you get the equipment up here by yourself? Yes. Zathras is used to being beast of burden. Poor guy. Other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have very sad death. At least there is symmetry. Go. Go. Sathras, take care. Look on Delenn's face. Like, you know, we get it, dude. We get it. Why do your people always ask if someone is ready right before you're going to do something massively unwise? Yeah.

[41:46] That's a great line to go out on. It really is. Why are you always doing something? Why do you ask that question when you're about to do something massively stupid? Tradition. All right, Jeff, a couple of thoughts here in between the episodes. What do you got? No, I'm asking you. A couple of thoughts in between the episodes. I think we've really talked. I'm eager to get into the second part. I don't know if there's anything we haven't really talked through. Except one thing I do want to dive in, and we'll see it really in the second part, too. When we think about the film in the beginning, so much.

[42:16] Revolves around like this moment that we're seeing and that fleshes some of it out this fleshes some of it out the centauri trilogy fleshes some of it out like it's it's probably the one moment in the babylon five canon that you need the most pieces to really understand just this very simple moment of londo in a throne room yeah i i have to tell you knowing the whole thing makes this episode infinitely more enjoyable absolutely it was so good the first time around but it's a whole different journey the second time right like i'm just i'm just sitting here just yeah like watching i'm watching i'm enjoying i know where it's getting ready to go i'm watching for the moments that i want to watch i'm looking over to you to see how you're reacting at a specific moment if you don't react the right way i'm going to be mad at you of course yeah yeah i'm looking at the chat over here are they reacting the right way or you know i'm doing that thing because this is such a great it's it's just so it's so much fun i don't know that anything has changed for me though, between the first two so far, right? Like the same things I thought the first time around the same amount of fun I'm having with that. I'm having that again. Maybe it's in a little bit of a different way, but I'm having that again, you know, it was, it was, it was the joy of discovery and like seeing the things connect. Now it's the joy of knowing what happens, but it's the same joy.

[43:34] All right episode two previously on babylon five it is weighted locked and sealed all right what are the symbols we have like the irish trinity symbol right here right yeah which the one the one the one the tree the trinity that works do you know what the medallion is that's up above that symbol i don't i don't recognize that i really like the fact they put the trinity symbol on this yeah which also works for uh mimari culture as a whole because every like three is such a big number for mimari culture as a whole right you know that's something that could have been there for years and years and years and everybody would have assumed one thing and then turns out it actually meant something else altogether the whole time that's cool you know i didn't like the idea of it being an alternate future type thing.

[44:20] But i can accept it from drifting it's a thing in dune protect you like the prescience there's are countless possible futures based on the decisions we make. John! No! There is the legacy of your war. The price we pay. I gotta say, though, I mean, Londo's got a lot of bloviating and bravado here, but he's the one that told them to take on. I have been not in this amount of time. But again, he still has to... This is the last year. ...put a show on, right? In the last day, in the last hour of your life. 17 years. He says to himself. You're a great crusade. I cannot recall my world from what it has become, but I can thank you properly. Dude, the age spots, the makeup consistency from when we first saw this back in The Gathering is really, it's rather remarkable.

[45:22] I'm really glad they could have gotten this actor back to do this episode because he could have been busy and booked. Right. Well, luck's about the only thing we've got on our side right now. Sure as well, don't have much of anything else. I remember saying this. Marcus just disappeared. When I watched it, I remember saying Marcus just something's about to go down, and Marcus just did a thing. Antelope Shock says what? What was that?

[45:56] Look, it takes Marcus with a metal pike. Like, Ivanova did it with her bear hands.

[46:05] I forgot about that. I love how he ducked like, crap! He looks like a dog. I accepted this fate a long time ago they cannot harm me i'm not afraid not if you are with me our son is safe that's all that matters our son what i love you so jms says this is the kiss this is the first kiss right it's the first kiss that's not their first kiss we freaked out about this the first time he says i kept leading up to that first kiss over and over but deliberately never quite got there. I knew that when it came time to do it, I wanted to do it in just the way you describe whoever was saying it. What did the comment? It would and wouldn't be a first kiss both at exactly the same time. So there's the moment everyone's been waiting for, but not in quite the way anyone expected. How very JMS. It's wild when people do those big buildup first kisses in ways that no one would ever anticipate, but actually work really well for Jeff who hates on air relationships. But we, we achieved everything we set out to achieve. We created something that will endure for a thousand years. The price, John. The terrible, terrible price.

[47:32] What was the terrible, terrible price? I think it was the, um, the sun. Didn't David die or didn't he get taken over by the, cause, cause Londo delivered the urn that had the keeper in it as a gift for David. And didn't David get taken over by the keeper? And that was, that was, it was that. And then it was also, um, uh, or fast forward with what we know, Sheridan's about to die and he's going to lose, he's basically going to lose his life and he's going to get 20 years and he's almost done with his 20 years at this point here in this yeah that's what they're saying in the chat also maybe it is that and i honestly still think that's so dumb like oh so you know when he's gonna die yeah you got 20 years do you know how long 20 years is in life yeah you know um a terrible terrible price okay me 20 years from now i'll be 65 okay hopefully i still have at least another 20 years after that right yeah maybe more and given my family history it's entirely possible that it might but if i were to die then no one would be shocked you know what i mean like it yeah it'd be sad i it would have been a young-ish death but dying at 65 like that's that's not unheard of right it's not like i died now yeah and that's the terrible terrible.

[48:45] Cost you know so i i feel what you're saying but also they're gonna lose him quicker than they should have yeah i mean theoretically he's in the military he could die at any point you know and There's a, so with, with it not being David also, she mentioned earlier, David is okay. And also sleeping in light that happens after this. They talk about, you know, we were very upset because David didn't show up to hang out on his thing. I like here. Colin says in the chat, going back to your old theory that Dylan is a villain. I don't remember that theory, but I kind of love it. Just think if she'd actually given specific and poignant advice here instead of just complaining about the state of everything.

[49:28] To which she she does tell him don't go to zaha doom yeah which he totally ignores but it's not just that he ignores it he is compelled he has to make the choice and by the way i'm going to talk about this a lot later so i don't want to dive too much into it now but he given the set of circumstances and the set of information he had despite old dylan saying don't go do this don't go do this if and and the other warnings if you go to zaha doom you will die listen all of that might be true but given everything i have right now i have to go and if i die i die yeah if it happens it happens right but i have to go this is not a this is not just an ignoring it's a i've heard that i've taken this into account i'm weighing that against other information and on the balance the choice i'm making is to go and i want to it's the choice he's making that's going to determine what becomes of him and her and all of this and we'll talk about more of that we'll talk more about that later i didn't think i would see you again before the end is there anything i can do to prevent this i mean there's still a chance no this future can only be changed by surrendering to the shadows and that price is too high to pay but we have a son yes we have david.

[50:46] Out now sarah in the chat makes a really good point if he had not gone to zahadum he would not have found lorien if he did not find lorien they wouldn't have been able to get the shadows and the vorlons to go beyond the rim willingly absolutely true absolutely true they're all holding on to each other and stuff and sheridan still has to be so confused like you will excuse me if i do not stand i have had considerable to drink it is.

[51:18] The only way that we can be alone this coming out of the shadows thing is awesome i love the symbolism there he's in the dark he's in the shadow and it's only now that he can come out of the shadow and have a real conversation it's coming out of the shadow and he can do it because of alcohol so jeff's takeaway in this is that to not be evil get blitzed not what i would have taken out of that but sure by the way this is the kind of metaphor that i love watching right like this physical when a certain color of light is like on half your face and others on the other half like that's the sort of production stuff that i love coming out of the shadow your shot londo coming out that is so good wake what did you do not know you cannot see it while it is away i also loved his line read i don't know if it was in the script or not i suppose i could look but he didn't say i've had a considerable amount to drink he said i've had a considerable to drink it cannot hold its liquor you see there it is i have learned that if i drink just enough.

[52:26] Put it to sleep a few minutes where i am in charge of myself again but the few minutes have been growing shorter and shorter we do not have much time as the series goes on and things get weird more and more weird between londo and sheridan on our first time through we were just like dude you saw the keeper like how could you not know this so if i'm sheridan some of the things it came back was like well they don't know he doesn't know.

[52:57] When he got it put on yeah if i go back as sheridan i am immediately going to assume he's already got it on him because he's been acting all kinds of crazy for a long time and the fact this never comes up again really yeah i think i think they're handling of sheridan's info it's knowledge of the future but it's yeah but i mean he's gonna remember he had a kid he remembers don't go to zaha doom he remembers that he kissed to land he's going to remember a big bulbous freaky thing that londo had to drunk himself to get but he doesn't he may not remember the the goblet that he had but he's going to remember the big beats and big freaky thing on his shoulder neck is a big beat it's a point yeah uh jms on this uh called the this he officially named that thing the the keeper and he said uh it's one of the many things that work for the shadows the minions and whatnot but he also said he never liked the design of the keeper or how it was shot yeah he chalks it up to uh accepting it up to the he chalks accepting it up to the great art of the compromise well i want to know what was the what was the well how did how did this come how was this the compromise like what were the choices between yeah before and what did he want like how did he envision it yeah probably it was here's what I want and here's what I've thrown it out we don't have the budget for that yeah we got what we have my budget for is slime from a quarter machine.

[54:26] By a world, all I hope for, gone. You two are my last chance for this place. I'm sorry. You and I are intentionally trying to not pause this as often, but Ben put something in the chat that directly answers what you just said. Yep. Ben did, and so did Deborah. There's two good ones in here to bring up. Well, no, but talking about why did Sheridan not mention the Keeper when he went back in time, having knowledge of it. And Ben says he asked JMS that very question back in the day, which, by the way, Ben, under what circumstance did you ask him that question? Just want to know. Probably at a con, but I still want to know. And basically what he said was that there was that there was too much going on for Sheridan to really have been sure. But he also acknowledges that they should have acknowledged it, that there should have been something where Sheridan was like, maybe, maybe not. And make a decision to basically be like, yeah, I wonder if that's the keeper that's happening right now. I'm not sure I should play it cool until I know for sure and at least had that be the explanation and he just didn't should have but he didn't thought about it later that makes a lot of sense, and yeah it turns out Wando was supposed to say I have had considerable to drink my people for my own redemption he wants the redemption of Wando Malari.

[55:49] My god will take you there in exchange for your lives. All I ask is that you and your allies, To free my people, I can do nothing more for them. Go now. Quickly. So, real quick, because this affects a conversation that we continued to have for many a year later in the redemption of Londo Malari. And he talks about, I have to do this for my own redemption, my own redemption. I'm going to state, now this is Brent speaking here, okay?

[56:25] Londo's redemption was complete at the very long night of Londo Malari.

[56:30] Okay okay being redeemed does not alleviate one of consequences right you still have to deal with consequences there's still a very real thing but what we see londo doing for londo is a freaking hero yeah absolutely like even now in this moment he is a hero this because it's easy to look at this moment right here and be like okay so he's lived this whole life of all this bad and all this stuff he's been doing for the last 20 something years and here at the very end he's going to do this one good thing and that supposedly redeems so most of us would be like no maybe maybe no right for the last 20 years Londo has been working out his redemption yeah the redemption was complete but he has been living in that state he has been working that out and this is just one further maybe even the final act of furtherance in that because as soon as this is done he's going to look at your car and be like okay do me time to time to time to get it out right um and that gets validated in the centauri trilogy he spends the whole 20 years fighting as he can yeah yeah but that's but again i i just want to clarify like i his redemption is complete it happened back then this is him working it out which is which is just is rather remarkable but what it is not is this moment here is not his redemption agreed he's well redeemed yes yes.

[57:59] It's that because he's been redeemed, he can do all this. Yeah. You are my old friend. Yes. They will never make it. Okay. What have we seen before this moment? Is it just hands around the throat? We've seen Jakar come up with the thing around his eye. We haven't seen this conversation. We've never heard him say, hello, my old friend, or come here, my old friend. To this point, we thought it was Jakar murdering him. Yeah. They do not take betrayal lightly i am as tired of my life as you are, i hate myself just as much as you hate me now Oh, my God.

[58:50] What is it what is it i'm being pulled back again Then take these words back with you to the past. Treasure the moments you have. Savor them for as long as you can, for they will never come back again. All right, platitude, D'Lenn. Do not go to Zahadoum. Do you understand? Do not go to Zahadoum. Yeah, D'Lenn's wrong about that. Yeah. She's just, that is wrong, and that is a selfish thing for her to say. Agreed. Absolutely agree. But also probably something that is spoken in somewhat ignorance. I don't know. You know? because she knows the role lorian played yeah but i don't know that she really understands.

[59:30] She should she should and there's veer and that little um sweet you i you thought there was some sinisterness to that i did.

[59:39] I could see that well i was i was wondering if there was like i didn't know that was the thing i didn't know in fact you pointed out like with londo there was the metaphor like the physical visual metaphor the shadow yeah there's shadowing on beer here i want to pay attention to that half in shadow half not yeah more like three quarters shadow yeah if we follow that shadow metaphor there's some not good there maybe but here's the thing i would be willing to look at that and go no metaphor. That's just set lighting with where they have them. Yeah. Okay. But here's the difference of what I see there, knowing what I now know, I don't see any sinisterism there. Okay.

[1:00:18] Because what, here, I'm going to roll it back. We're going to watch it one more time. I want you to note the look on Veer's face, note the sigh at the end, the, okay. There is, there is nothing to like, but I 100% not know if I didn't know what I know, like we did when we first, I'm seeing the shadow. I'm interpreting that as being something, you know, but at this point, no, I'm not, I'm not interpreting that, but let's watch it one more time. But watch, look at the look on Veer's face. It is purely innocent. It is purely like, okay. Oh gosh. And it's my time now. And here we are. This is, this is, I mean, he has loved this man for how many years? Yeah. And, and really, I mean, Vera's gone to bat for Londo so many times beyond what Londo ever deserved.

[1:01:10] Yeah. And Andy, Andy in our chat points out, maybe it's even a look of relief. So let's really look through the shadows and see Vera's face. Okay. See how well Steven first is acting this. Here, I'm not even going to do this just to blow it up a bit.

[1:01:26] Right there. Right there. Before that, you can even hear the exhale. Yeah. Right up to that moment where his eyes drop, it's something. But then you're like, no. Yeah.

[1:01:49] We're all mad. I like that it starts inflating. Yeah. I love how they use Marcus in this episode. Yeah, I don't even believe in luck. Oh, and they expect us to believe that suit's just going to have somebody show up in it. Right. But it starts with even Delenn says in our chat, the physics of the suit inflating makes no sense. And that's absolutely right. If he was just time hopping in, he would just be in the suit. Actually, he would replace the suit. He would replace it. He came in his goo, though, and had to form. Defeated the shadows, formed the Grey Council. Major, your active core has become unstable, approaching critical. It's not going to last very long. We have to evacuate. No, not after all this. Major, if this is as bad as it sounds, we could lose the whole station. We have nearly 2,000 workers on board. You don't want to jeopardize their safety. If it's safe, we can come back. But if it's not... I like this actor, the lieutenant. He's got a gravitas to him. Yeah, here it is. Anna! This is the one I still can't believe you were right about. I cannot believe that you were right about this. This is... I love it because it makes all the sense in the world, and it's so dumb to me. But I love it. Look at her, Mr. House, with her little snow glitter globe. Hello. No!

[1:03:18] That's pretty dramatic there deline time flash see yourself forward or backward in time jeff what happened what was bound to happen as soon as we went forward in time again when garibaldi and i came to babylon for the last time we passed through the time distortion field without any kind of protection i always wondered if it would have any long-term effects if we were exposed to the field again that's why i didn't want him along but we can fix it right i mean you're not going to keep getting older. There's your explanation. Is he? Zathras does not know for certain, but is good chance, yes. Either way, we can't stop to worry about this now. We've got a job to finish. Sheridan disappeared again just as the field went up. If we don't get him back soon, we may lose him permanently. Is there any way you can fix his time stabilizer? I have... Again, very much a Commander Sinclair. Bad thing happened to me, we keep going. This doesn't change things. We've got one last shot at this. Let's make the best of it. Like this really makes me miss him as the station commander. He's just got so much authority that's natural and good. You cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. That's me and Garibaldi when we came here two years ago. Our time to answer a distress call from Babylon 4. This is where everything's got to line up.

[1:04:36] This is where the Babylon 5 editing crew is like... we'll go in and check it out first once we know it's clear we'll signal you to proceed with the evacuation we may have it in another couple of hours it's too long what if i can adjust the power from cnc great idea if you can get there i can do it i just gotta be careful The work they did to line this up with Babylon Squared to make it look like this was intended the entire time.

[1:05:02] It is fun to think about like okay what is footage from the original show, versus what did they reshoot here you know not the one not the one what season one lighting, can't talk not the one they told me they did satris listens he does yes i do remember the first time we saw babylon squared i'm thinking he's not the one i remember saying that yeah it's not that he's not the one it's he's not the one yet, let's move out move out okay that should do it i've got control of the core if you're finished down there back off because i'm going to start her up roger that heading in commander don't.

[1:05:53] In our first time we thought that was because he was touching himself, sort of a thing but it's because delen is in time flux and isn't stable in the time but in the original treatment it was him touching himself yeah so we were right we were but again he retcons it and makes it work within the story and well done you yeah even worse when xathus is like the one yeah because you got three options you must leave now finished we are there is no more time it's definitely a retcon but that's yeah sometimes that's what you got to do though right original plan doesn't work out now i'm going to retcon it to mean this other thing instead of just ignoring it and going against canon and going against what i just said i'm work it in and make it make it happen in a real way babylon 5 is just a retcon i don't know on a retcon on a retcon that worked out beautifully a while ago they passed out he must have fixed it, oh no this isn't my stabilizer there's no sign of damage someone wants to put this on me.

[1:06:57] But if you're here, then who's going to run out of here? And Delenn again sacrificing herself like we learned in Cums the Inquisitor would happen. She'd be happy to do. She did it in a heartbeat. That's a good connect, Jeff. Good connect. You have a destiny. Go! A density. Go for something. I am your density.

[1:07:23] Yeah, that's not a position you want to be in right there. no, bye fellows fellows he's like no wait wait fellows, Garibaldi do you read me watch your back Michael watch your back target is outside communication range unable to make contact that's the dumbest heads up warning hey watch your back someone's gonna shoot you in the back, Well, I mean, Delenn gives the dumbest, you know, cherish every moment, you know, whatever. And don't go to Zahedra. I'm not going to tell you why. Used up all that time already. Zathras knew you would not leave him. Zathras trusts the one. See, that is a much better use of the I just knew than what happened in Stargate with Sam with Cassandra at the bottom of the thing. Yes, agreed. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was such a cheat.

[1:08:28] I tried. I tried to warn him. How strong was Dillon? Sinclair couldn't move that pole by himself. What's Dillon going to do? Just the way I remember it. I know. It's time. We have to go. They're waiting for us. Okay. Of all the things they did differently to try to make these two things match up, this is the one that bothers me the most. And JMS has an explanation. Well, all righty then. It was one of those days when it was a hideous production schedule. I wasn't on set and it slipped by everybody. It makes me feel better knowing that it clearly bothers him too. Yeah. It makes me feel better. And an honest mistake, not a, yeah, just, oops. Could you and Marcus give us a minute here? There's something we need to discuss alone. But Zathras can stay. Zathras. Like if I'm, if I'm one of them, that's what I'm saying, but Zathras can stay. You said you followed the one, but the one you pointed to was, was Delenn. Yes, Zathras knew. All Minbari belief is around three, three casts. Worker, warrior, religious. Literally getting goosebumps right now. Languages. Like, this is so good. Light, dark, and gray. The nine of the gray council. Three, two.

[1:09:47] All is three. You are three. As you are one. As you are the one. The Trinity. You are the one who was. You are the one who is. You are the one who will be. You are the beginning of the story. And the middle of the story. And the end of the story. That creates the next great story.

[1:10:17] In your heart you know what jathras says is true you know what's nuts is like this isn't even the big reveal of the episode right yeah andy's right says jms makes soliloquies seem so organic, as do the actors delivering them true god i'm so anxious just get to the thing, like it's torture knowing sheridan has reassumed his proper seat things and clears out right yeah right stand by to break seal it's a it's okay to be sad for for a moment, Engines at maximum. Let's go home. I don't know that you could respect this if you just walked into this particular episode. Right. Yeah. As much. Maybe you could, but... Him saying let's go home? That's a natural end to this episode. It's over. Oh, but no, it's not. Guess Draw wants to make sure no one else gets trapped there. Lanier told you that a thousand years ago, human and Minbari souls began to merge. and Bari's souls were being born in human bodies, something happened that opened that door between us. My change was in part to even the scales and restore balance between our races using the device my people discovered a thousand years ago. You see, if my people had found Babylon 4 with a human aboard, they would never have accepted it. Dear God. Yeah, he just figured it out.

[1:11:47] He speaks like minbari he has the heart of a minbari right my whole life has been all right here's my question who's gonna clean this one up now zafras, No thanks for Zappers. Don't you understand? Using you. They're using you. I knew you would come. You should rest. We were right about you. You talk like a Minbari, Commander. It was planned all along. Look at this. The way they just stack the pieces little bit by little bit. Oh, my God. So good. Some older school-looking Minbari ships. Not as big. I like how everything is plastic wrapped. Saran wrapped, yep. Good. Zathras knew you would come. It's a good thing we speak the same language. Right? This way. The lack of music right now is so loud. Yeah. Yeah. I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen. That's Boogaloo. I have much work ahead of him.

[1:13:10] So let's go that the juice god damn it's so good, so what a great set of episodes incredible and for the first time ever i'm able to line this up with a rush song and some lyrics he activates the program uh runs behind the scenes it just like sets the wheels in motion and it's oh my god i right this was incredibly fun amazing and i think on the second time i'm not going to belabor it you already said it it's so great the second time but for different reasons but also so great it holds up yeah and and and frankly i kind of feel like i did the first time i watched it a hundred percent you know what i mean like this one takes me back yeah yeah exactly what's also really cool is this episode in many ways doesn't do a lot now people just lost their freaking minds all right let me let me explain the episode really doesn't do a lot what happens sinclair comes on the station they go off on a time travel romp sinclair leaves and what do they do at the end they go home they go home and next week we're just it's another episode right so as far as like where we are in the war and all that kind of stuff this episode.

[1:14:25] Really serves under its own purpose except we get all that flash forward stuff with londo and this really sets into motion and comes back into the don't go to zaha doom yep and in those pieces it kind of gives sheridan it gives him his moment for pause his moment to question whether or not i should do this or maybe not when when anna does come back and she's trying to convince him he now has an internal struggle because of what we just saw in the flash forward so the episode matters. It has lasting impact, but ultimately it really serves a purpose of, hey, our buddies.

[1:15:02] Doing better than the last time we saw him. We had to say goodbye to his character. Let's give that character the ceremonious send off that he deserves. And let's wrap it into the overall story in a way that's just so freaking cool because everything's all, you know, we're in a different alternate timeline right now anyway. So let's go do that. And it, it served both purposes. It didn't forget the story that it's in, but it really serves itself. And it's just a fun, It's a fun episode that's so well done. And the way JMS, I mean, it's a masterstroke. The way he wove it in, it's the episode that wouldn't end, the writing that wouldn't end, the editing that wouldn't end, and it was all worth it. And it ended. And it's a closed loop itself. They created the story in Babylon Squared. They end the story in War Without End, but it continues the story for Babylon 5. But that story of Babylon 5 could have continued without this. But it filled in all the blanks and it did so in an absolutely incredible way. God. Yeah. It's great messages. Did, did you get anything? Oh boy. Oh, Jeff. Okay. All right. Sinclair has a line in this one. I am what I've always been right. Sinclair goes on his journey. This episode really details Sinclair's journey to becoming Valen. Something that he was destined to do, right? This journey was his destiny, his density, Right?

[1:16:28] He was destined to become Valen because that's how history always happened, right? In one sense, he was beholden to that destiny. It was going to happen whether he liked it or not. It's his destiny. It's what happens. It's a closed loop. You're going to go back. What does he say in the middle of? He's like, I'm going to go do this because I've already done it, right? But throughout these two episodes, while he's beholden to this destiny, we continually see Sinclair make the choices that lead him to that spot. We see him make choices where he could have made a different choice.

[1:17:07] He could have, but he chose this particular path. He chose this particular route, many opportunities to choose differently, but we see him making the choices that lead him there. Now, to be fair, Sinclair had something that we didn't have a letter from himself from the future saying, this is what you're going to do, right? He had history books saying, this is what you're going to do. We don't have that as a luxury, but I think Jeff, the point remains, the message remains here. It's the choices that we make it's the choices that we make that truly determine our destiny.

[1:17:45] Okay not the destiny itself that's the message i have from this i love that because it gives agents it's not that whole like oh everything's foretold and it's just going to happen it gives us agency as individuals that's incredible because he does he has to consciously he made the decisions not knowing but then once he knew he continued to make the decisions he could have at any point made a decision to not follow that that destiny hey marcus you want to go back cool you go back exactly but sinclair said nope it's going to be me i'm going to make this choice to go do that he he wasn't and you know that's that's i think the point of a lot of time travel stories and where we get the hey the future what about those to say about the future the future's not written yet marty go make of it what you will right picard does that same kind of thing the future's not written go go change the future it's it's the future is not set in stone well maybe it is, maybe it is but you still have to make the choices that you make you still got to do it you still form the future and maybe the past because of the choices you make so make your choices i like that a lot make your choices you are not a slave you are not a victim to time, you're a full participant in time.

[1:19:01] I like that. How about you, Jeff? Do you get anything? I honestly, I, I forgot that we were looking for messages. I just, I love this episode so much. I could never, Jeff, how could you fail in your one job on this show? Isn't my job to like the show? Like everyone else likes it. I mean, I just, I could never imagine where your specific job is looking for messages in a show you've already seen before. And you get so wrapped up in how awesome the episode is that you forget to even look for messages, Jeff. I could never relate to that. It's unthinkable. Unthinkable.

[1:19:38] Well, Jeff, uh, those are the messages that we got, but we have a job to do. And this, this one actually, I think has a bit of, uh, uh, this isn't so cut and dry. We talked about it a little bit last week, last time I'm going to say it right up front last time war without and took the top spot and are 100% completely accurate ranking of Babylon five for the first time. But we're now doing the same thing, only Babylon 5 for the second time, where things do change. Right. And Jeff, our current top five are interludes and examinations, ship of tears, messages from Earth, point of no return, and severed dreams. Jeff, I ask you, where does this one go? Does this actually still take the top spot? I warn you against recency bias. Does this still take the top spot for the best episode of the season? Or can we put it in a perspective where as good as it is maybe it's not that top spot what i love about this second time watch that we're doing is the different lens we're experiencing these episodes through yeah and when i look specifically at our top three which happened to be a trilogy, right like those episodes are untouchable yeah you know and and and how great they are and i think I think that if I was ranking this based on what is critical to the arc of Babylon five, yeah.

[1:21:02] At least two of those three are definitely ranked above war without end.

[1:21:09] But if I think about it in terms of like, what did I enjoy more? It's a split between severed dreams and war without end. So I'm going to go to a test that you have used a number of times, or at least kind of laid against it. And what did I feel after watching it? If you can make me feel a thing, right, then you've done the thing. You've been watching this at all. You know how this episode made me feel. Brent, this is still going to be the number one episode on the season so far. Nothing else has made me like literally get goosebumps and want to throw up right here on camera. It's brilliant. The mechanics of what they put together, the writing, the editing, every, even the mistakes between this and Babylon squared are brushed over. Okay. I'm going to put something to you. Okay. I'm going to combine as one episode messages from earth point of no return and severed dreams. We often talk about that as a trilogy okay our friend john krikorian in the in their original run even said do that as a mini binge do it as a mini arc right if we put those together as a solid single episode now where does it go war without end still leaves me feeling more even with the trilogy of those.

[1:22:32] Oh man, that trilogy is untouchable. It would be number two, though. That trilogy would be number one and more without it. I'm going to make us, I'm going to, I'm going to, you can, we can debate this at a later time if we need to, or we could do it right now. I think we should smush those together. We should do it. And I do, I do think the, the, the best of the best of this season, if you want somebody to know what Babylon five is about, you show them that trilogy. If you want to get them hooked, you show them that trilogy. but as far as the feel good as far as what it is war without end is it i gotta tell you my only argument against this uh-huh is i have to fit that long thing of all three of them on the list that we show of the ranking and that'll take a little bit of uh creativity but i'm gonna i'm gonna market as that right now yeah but with that being said i mean and you we could even look at these and go it's one a and one b but a is still going to be the trilogy we um said this recently, i'm pretty sure it was on this babel on five program that this doesn't mean they're better it means they're ranked differently yeah so uh yeah there it is number one the trilogy number two the duology and you can send your emails where you disagree with us doing that to, Jeff at the bad nerds.com over there. I'm saying it anyway.

[1:23:56] I, we can debate that. You know what? We could always undo it if we wanted to. Exactly. I, I think if you take, if you separate the three, War Without End comes over top. If you take them together as a trilogy, I think together they are stronger than any one individual. And I think they're stronger than War Without End. So. Pretty untouchable, honestly. As the three put together. But you know what we do say? This is 100% completely accurate. It's definitive. It's immutable. And it's objectively correct. Yeah. And if it's not correct, then. You're wrong. Well, I wouldn't say that, but. I would.

[1:24:32] We'll give, we'll give a YouTube their money back. All right, Jeff, that's going to do it for war without end. We are pressing forward. We don't like time itself. We don't get to stand here in this, in this time we are moving forward next week, a seminal episode. Gray 17 is missing Jeff. This was an episode that there was some stuff to talk about with it. More extra extra canonical than it was within the universe itself what do you remember about this episode what do you remember feeling about this episode when we first watched it i liked this episode and i know that's an unpopular thing to say in the community but not knowing it was maligned and whatever like i i i liked this one i think that the robert england storyline the the thing in gray 17 it's ridiculous and it's dumb and it means nothing or whatever get robert england on screen. So that's pretty cool. But the Marcus and Naroon Delenn stuff in this episode, um.

[1:25:34] It forgives any sin of the, of the, of the monster storyline. But I, I enjoyed gray 17. Do you remember what you thought about it? Same thing. You and I were in lockstep on this one. Everybody was like, oh, it's like the worst day. People were saying this was the worst episode of the whole series. What? I'm sorry. Wait a minute. TKO is the worst episode of the whole series. Wait, I'm sorry. No, no, no. You know what the actual worst episode of the whole damn series is? It's probably the long dark. It probably. Yep. It probably is. Right. Tko is not that bad this episode like tko is not that bad i remember my my thought coming out of it is yes the monster stuff was goofy i can live with goofy yeah it's 90s sci-fi for god's sake the naroon stuff gold yeah and i cannot discount that just because the title talks about this other plot line. Yeah. That's what I remember this episode.

[1:26:33] We're going to find out what everyone else thinks about it as well. We're going to watch that right here next week. Thanks for hanging out with us through two full episodes and incredible ride. This has been glad you're here with us. Make sure you're subscribed so you can be with us as we continue our journey through Babylon five for the second time. If you want to catch all the other cool stuff we do, it's on our Patreon pages, links in the show notes. If you really want to help us out though, the thing that we appreciate more than absolutely anything else sharing this show share it with somebody and what better one to share than the two-parter here we just watched war without end and so with that i'm jeff i'm gonna say goodbye for brent as well and hey jeff so yeah what's up brent um you're the one no no not the one i am the one, No, also not the one. But what if I told you? I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. The station is about something.