A Late Delivery From Avalon | For the Second Time

[0:49] For the second time previously on Babylon 5 for the first time I'm actually kind of excited like I'm really excited for this one this is trash this is God why would you why why JMS would you do this, slice his head off to Lynn do something cool Jeff probably loved this episode Hmm. Wow.

[1:19] I'm at a loss for words here.

[1:25] I don't. Wow. My good sir, Brent, do you have a problem with this episode? Why are you speaking so? People out there are going to give me such flack for this episode. I have no notes. I literally have no notes there's nothing about this episode that stood out to me that i want to talk about that i have any desire to talk about i don't know why we're doing this episode this was objectively an awful episode i think every sci-fi show does this episode though like every sci-fi show has to have its fantasy they're never that good this would have been so much better of an episode if that guy actually was the dude king arthur michael york was uh he tried right now dr franklin is the worst this didn't do it in a very bad one five way this was sloppy this was poorly written i don't know what the hell jms was thinking about with this episode i'll give it a star three no i'm gonna do half half okay that's where i am it's a half a star fury that's it half a Star Fury is exactly half a Star Fury more than I thought you were going to give it.

[2:42] I will not watch this one again. Won't happen. And now, the conclusion.

[2:55] Hey, Brent, are you even there? You're not going to you. Is he seriously not going to watch this for the second time? Oh, yes. I'm seriously not going to watch this. Hey, you're here. Cool. Oh, you're not going to do it. All right. Um, welcome to Babylon five for the second. Hey, that's my line. It is your line, man. Go.

[3:25] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name's Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. But we are still searching for those sci-fi messages because that Star Trek thing still is inside of us. But, you know, Jeff, the thing is messages are not unique to Star Trek. They're really done very well throughout all of sci-fi. So we're looking for those here in Babylon 5. We're looking for the ones that give us a mirror to society.

[4:06] They give us a hope that things can be better in the future. Maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Maybe. Now, that being said, Jeff, you and I have seen this series all the way through. That includes this episode. Oh, boy, what an episode we'd had the first time around. Yes, we did. For people out there who have not seen this series through for the first time, maybe you've just watched this episode and said, let me go check out what these guys are saying about it. Stop. You don't want to watch the rest of this episode. Stop right now. Get out of this episode. We have one that is completely spoiler free that is that we didn't watch at first. It was our very first watch. You go check that one out. It's up in the feed. You guys go do that one. Join us there. Trust us. Because from this point forward, Jeff and I are at free will to talk about anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the canon anywhere outside of the canon from anywhere in the franchise it's all fair game for jeff and i to talk about as well as to talk about with our lovely council chambers and discord folks who are joining us here uh for this recording it's always an absolute pleasure to hang out with our council chambers uh tier subscribers who get invited to all of our recordings but brent this is a special episode so we open this up to everyone on our patreon who has access to our discord because brent we're watching we're doing a thing that you said we would never do.

[5:23] Previously, on Babylon 5, for the first time. I'm actually kind of excited. Like, I'm really excited for this one. This is trash. This is garbage. Why would you? Why, JMS, would you do this? Slice his head off to Lynn. Do something cool. Jeff probably loved this episode. Wow.

[5:50] I'm at a loss for words here.

[5:56] I don't, Wow My good sir Brent Do you have a problem with this episode Why are you speaking so People out there are going to give me Such flack for this episode I have no notes, I literally Have no notes There's nothing about this episode That stood out to me That I want to talk about That I have any desire to talk about Uh, I don't know why we're doing this episode. This was objectively, uh, an awful episode. I think every sci-fi show does this episode though. Like every sci-fi show has to have its fantasy. They're never that good. This would have been so much better of an episode. If that guy actually was the dude King Arthur, Michael York was, uh, he tried right now dr franklin is the worst this didn't do it in a very Babylon 5 way this was sloppy this was poorly written i don't know what the hell jms was thinking about with this episode i'll give it a star three no i'm gonna do half half okay that's where i am it's a half a star fury that's it half a star fury is exactly half a star fury more than i thought you were going to give it i will not watch this one again won't happen and now the conclusion.

[7:21] And we're watching a late delivery from avalon for the second time now normally this is where we talk about like hey this is what i remember from it but thanks to our very own setai delen who is here with us now and uh everything you got to watch that at the uh in the in the open right there so thank you to delen for piecing that together for us that was incredible But I think that pretty much wraps up our thoughts on the first time around. Is there anything else, Brent, that you got? Did you listen to our first time? Well, I did because we have homework and that's what we do. And you're a professional. It was my turn.

[7:55] I just think I don't skip out on shows. I don't not do the work that I'm supposed to do. As you said, I'm a professional. I do this, except the first time around. Now, listen, I'm going to, I got to, I have a little crow I got to eat. I got a little come up. I got a little apology. I have to make to all of you guys out there. Wow. Because the truth is Jeff secretly love this episode. Absolutely not. Okay, good. Well, as of this moment right now, we have not watched this, this episode yet. No. Okay. But as of this moment right now, I stand behind everything I said in the first watch. I know you do too. I'm not speaking for you, but I know you do too, just because I know you. I stand behind everything I said. That being said, I fully recognize and I accept full responsibility for not doing my job as a podcaster the first time around. I came into that episode, Jeff, I had no notes. Right. No notes. And I just said this was just a bad episode. It pissed me off so bad.

[8:52] And the reasons it pissed me off, I think, are still there. I am open to seeing those reasons change. That's why I'm here. I'm giving it another shot. I'm giving it a second go. I am open to seeing those reasons change. But I didn't do the work. I didn't do the work of analysis. I didn't do the work of message finding. I didn't do the work of fair ratings. I penned the entire episode on one of the multiple plot lines that are happening in this episode. I would say there's three different separate plot lines happening in this particular episode. Two of them are fantastic. Yeah, I agree. They really are. It's the other one, and it's the A plot, unfortunately, that really just sours this whole episode in my mind, and it did for me at the time. And I was wrong two years ago, three years ago now, whatever it's been.

[9:40] And so I'm not going to be doing that this time. I will be doing the work of a podcaster. I will be doing the work of analysis as we go through it. and like I said I I am open and that really honestly Jeff that was our that was the entirety of our first listen through and and here's the thing if the truth is when I was listening back to it I thought to myself multiple times man if I was a new person and I just picked this podcast up and this is the episode that I happened to listen to I'd be out yeah I would be so out of this episode and that's the vibe that and you tried Jeff to your credit you tried doing some stuff and I just dragged it down and it was all me it was all me although you.

[10:25] Did not have some nice things to say about this episode either. No. I do remember that I liked the Garibaldi plotline specifically. Garibaldi and Jakar parts were awesome. Yeah. They were so fun.

[10:36] So, but that really, that really was, was my first, that was our first podcast. It wasn't, it wasn't a fun listen. I'll be real honest with you. It, like the episode itself, was a big fat skip. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. So now that being said, Jeff, I imagine, well, hold on real quick. We watched that previously on video. We did. Do you have anything you'd like to say about your, I'll give you the opportunity before we move on to the next segment. Do you have anything you'd like to say about the first time around through this episode? So I remember, and the only reason I remember this is because Dylan did an incredible job putting this together. And so there were more clips than what, uh, what she shared and that thing, my God, I I leaned into Franklin so hard, like in my recap and everything, I was just like, Dr. Franklin. Yeah. I imagine this is pretty unlistenable for the first time episode. Here's the thing, Jeff. Okay. Let's take note of that real quick. At this point in the first watch, you and I were hardcore anti-Franklin. Big time. Like there was nothing he could do that was right. On the second watch right now, because you see him through season five, Dr. Franklin eyes, right? Because you know that in like two episodes, he's going to go on a walkabout, right?

[11:58] Because you know who he really is. And actually when you, I think just analyze what, like what he's really given us over the last two and a half seasons so far of the second watch, are you as hard on Dr. Franklin right now? Is like, where are you with him? So I think that I'm hard on him in moments. Like there are definitely moments where it's like, oh my God, this is horrible. He is awful. All of that kind of stuff. But, um, now not at all. Now those are moments that I watched through the lens of like, Of course he's awful. We understand, you know, his arc. We understand what he went through in his family, trying to stand up to his dad. We understand his addiction that he's dealing with, you know? And so, yeah, I like at this, we know that he's going to deal with his addiction. Exactly. I'm a fan of his at this point, even though he's a deeply flawed character, which I was not the first time. I just, he was deeply flawed and I hated him.

[12:51] And it was deserved, frankly. And here's the thing. I, if you and I could sit across the table from, from JMS, I, that, that would be, I think one of the topics of conversation is, is how much did you go into trying to make people dislike Dr. Franklin knowing he was about to go on this journey with what, like that's a part, that's a part of the journey in order for somebody to be redeemed. They have to fall from grace first. Exactly. And to send somebody on that sort of a redemption arc that Dr. Franklin very clearly goes through To make somebody go so beloved, they have to sometimes go to dark places first, right? Yeah.

[13:28] And so sending him to that dark place on purpose, it's why, Jeff, spoiler alert, those first 10, 11 episodes of season five, I'm ready for those with a different eye because I think – I've said it before. I'll say it again. He's an awful character, but I think he's supposed to be awful. And if he is supposed to be awful and it was played that way and everything that was done on purpose is what actually happened because that's the way it was meant to be, it was brilliant. If it was an accident and they just messed it up, JMS just messed it up and Robin, whatever his name is, they just messed it up and just made the worst character in the entire franchise, then that's on them. I can't help but that. Yeah, that happens too. But if they did it on purpose, oh my gosh. Right? It's incredible. But I think it's an incredible thing, though, that Franklin does. He reflects reality for us, right? Like, who does not have flaws? There's a great conversation going on in the Castle Chambers chat right now on exactly that. So he is a mirror to society. There you go. There you go.

[14:29] So, Jeff, here's the thing. You and I watched this. We had an experience as first-time viewers. I have a feeling, though. It's just a gut instinct. given the the the uh the the huge get or the babylon 5 production that it was to get michael york because that was huge right like bring a michael york they wanted michael york as the lead for the show right but they didn't get that but now they got i mean like this is big you know and and i can remember and i do understand the symbolism that goes into this episode and and all of that sort of stuff and i can imagine why that actually resonates probably fairly deeply with a lot of people and i imagine jms was very my guess is he was very very proud of this episode maybe i'm wrong i don't know but you searched out what he said so jeff clue us in what does jms say about this episode were we were we closer to right or does maybe he want to punch us in the face i think regardless of what we thought of this episode he'd probably punch us in the face.

[15:31] But a couple of weeks ago, we had our council chambers hang out, and Kat says to me in that, she's like, hey, if you're doing notes for the JMS stuff on Lady Deliver from Avalon, buckle up. And she was not kidding. Brent, there are mountains of comments. And I mean, just like if you go to the Lurker's Guide, you can just like throw, scroll, and it just goes forever and ever. But a lot of it's just back and forth. Most of it is really him talking a lot about Michael York and just how incredible, not only of an actor he is, but a person as well. He told a lot of stories about, you know, this is arguably the biggest name, um, that they've had since David Warner. And he could have come in and big time to everybody. And it would have been understandable and par for the course with, with people of his caliber, but he wasn't, he was cool. He spent time with people. He joked and really, um, really became a part of the cast and crew for the time that he was there. Which is neat i have a couple notes for during the episode but i captured just three kind of big things that uh that i wanted to share in this piece and i'm just i'm just i'm just gonna quote him here he says uh i like this one a lot it's not really an arc episode it's gonna hit some backstory elements it's just really nicely done i'm quite proud of it in fact this is one of.

[16:50] Andreas's favorite episodes which i get this had to be so much fun for him it's some specific work on the soundtrack with uh mr frankie and he wanted to up the arthurian feel of everything and so they used very little electronics so i want to listen for that this time in the soundtrack oh but brent he directly addresses us here just as we are able to go back and tell him when he's making a bad choice it was our timeline yeah i don't even remember getting in that we haven't done it yet okay cool yeah tell me what we're gonna do yeah okay.

[17:22] When people hear what it appears to be about, the immediate reaction is going to be, oh, God, they're not doing that, are they? And there'll be a lot of sarcasm, a lot of head shaking until the episode airs. And folks see that what it's about is not what it's about. And I think it will be a very popular episode thereafter. That is literally the exact opposite experience that I had. I know.

[17:50] Right? It's just like, ah, look, I could look at that was, that was honestly one of the number one responses we had. Cause as it was in the video, what did I say? I was like, it would have been better had it actually been King Arthur. Can I explain that just for a second? Cause I, like, I know people really hate this idea. King Arthur's overused. Just here's the thing. There are so many different ways they could have done. They could have gone with the quote unquote historical King Arthur, which I know even that's a little, little iffy on what that is. They could have gone with that. Like JMS Babylon 5 could have established their own historical Lord, much like they did with Jack the Ripper. Yeah. We've already established that the Vorlons take people out of Earth history and put them on ice until they need to serve them for something. Right. It works. They could have gone with something that was a little bit more mythological based and just said, yeah, this actually was the King Arthur that the stories were based on. Like they could have done that because we're guess what? Within a fictional world. Yeah. Why not do it? And you're going to do the sci-fi thing where the Vormont. And by the way, think about it. Go all the way back to medieval ancient history. Merlin, magic, dragons, Madame Mim.

[19:02] I don't think she was really there. But you know what I'm saying? Like, all that stuff. You throw these magic Vorlons in there, all of that suddenly becomes a possibility. Exactly. You know what I mean? It could have really happened. And mythology and legend can take over and can fluff it up and make it seem whatever it is over the course of history. But they could have pulled that in. And that's what I mean. I know when people are like, oh, no, the King Arthur thing is way overdone. First of all, now I have to ask, JMS said it, so is this now just group think because the boss said it? I got to ask the question. But also, I can understand this idea of really they're bringing in King Arthur. Because I got to tell you, there's another popular sci-fi series that brought in King Arthur at some point. And I was like, really? Do you know how lame that is? Are you serious? I've done that before to other sci-fi serieses too. Series-ees? Series-i. CRI. CRIs? Sure. Sure. I've done that too. But I think this one, because they first established a precedent, I think it actually could have gone off really, really well. That's just my opinion. That's my thought. Wow. You've apologized. You have reexamined your first time piece. What do you say? We just actually watched this episode now for the second time. I am delaying this as long as I possibly can, Jeff. Stop taking this. Stop pushing this on me. Before we came on, you said something like, hey, have you ever been excited for a thing and then it's right in front of you and all of a sudden you're like, God, I don't want to do this anymore.

[20:29] My time doing that was the first time I went skydiving. And what's scary about that is you don't have a choice. You're going out of that plane whether you want to or not, right? Right, right. Brent, we're skydiving right now and we're about to go out of the plane.

[20:45] Take a breath. Okay. Because this is what's going to happen right now. We're going to bring up the episode. You and I are going to watch it real time. We're going to comment on it. We're going to – I feel bad for our audio listeners because we're going to have facial expressions. I'm sure it would be a lot of nonverbal communication, which is great for an audio product. If you're normally an audio listener, this might be one to go to YouTube and check it out. Might be. This might be the one. But we're going to put this up on YouTube, edited like a reaction video sort of thing like we do. If you want to see the full and unedited version where we watch the entire episode and you can see the things that we decided to edit out or whatever, That's posted to our Patreon page a week before it releases to the public. Patreon.com slash. Bad nerds. And if you are listening to us on that audio podcasting app, no worries. You're going to join us because we're going to have all those conversations. So we'll take that audio. You'll hear that. And then you're going to join us at the backside, just like everybody else. So don't worry. You're going to be good. And you're going to get to know exactly what's happening. Because if you're listening to the audio version, chances are you've seen the episode enough. All you need to do is hear it and you'll know exactly what's happening. So that being said, Jeff, I guess the time is here. I am stuck between the tick and the talk.

[21:55] I'd as well... I don't have a rhyme. It's time to talk. Accessing file. Well, that's the first. It's going to take a long time to get the level of trade back to where it was before we broke away from Earth. Right now we need the docking fees. I really like how this piece of funding shows up throughout this. You can't keep relying on the Mimbari for protection. We have to create a broader base of support. And you have an idea. Always, Commander. What do you mean 100 credits? This guy, this mailman guy, should have been a recurring character. He's great. Look, I can't get into conceptual arguments. Look, they made a sign for his office. They gave him a room. There's three times delivery charge for a package this size. That was before we had a revolution around here. Now, in my little corner of Earth force, the mail still gets delivered. It's the last package I'm going to get from Earth for a long time. It's got mozzarella. Mozzarella. Right. Pepperoni. Is Garibaldi Italian? Is that name Italian? I guess it could be. I think so. I think it is. What kind of pepperoni? Is it the big sticks or the small ones? Oh, we're talking big sticks like this. This guy's so great.

[23:03] Give me the box and break my oath to the post office. I die first. Next. He should have been a recurring character. This could have been a thing. Totally. Yep. Ben says, yep. Oh my gosh. Ben says there should, there should have been an after credit scene for end game, which is end game is the, the episode where we, uh, president Clark eats it and we finished the civil war. Right. Right. That's that episode. He says it should have been an after credit scene for end game of this guy delivering a package to dead president clark and being like uh i still need a signature he could have grabbed that like his psycho ramblings page and go yeah this'll do right hey he looks familiar.

[23:46] So here's your first hint that things are not always that this is not exactly what it seems but this also lines up with like being snagged by the vorlon right like coming up in a thing So far, it still tracks with he was snatched. Absolutely, it does. I do like how this scene is shot. Yeah. I will say, from a photography standpoint, narrow corridor, very long, shaking. This reminds me of some of the haunted houses in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, that I grew up going to. Yeah? Yeah. My grandparents took me there every year, and they had these kind of weird little chintzy haunted houses. It reminds me of one of those. You're going to cut your fingers, man. I hope that's a dog way. Right? Don't grab a sword by the blade. What's wrong with you? So to this point, this tracks 100% with him being snatched by the Vorlon. Yeah, absolutely.

[24:38] Absolutely it does. I think it looked great. And Andrew just made the comment in the Council Chambers chat. I couldn't agree more for this being our first little like, hey, this guy just rolled over in his rack. And now we're going to show you this thing in his mind. That went on way too long. Okay, so here's my question. was so he's in his rack on his bed yeah for us non-navy folk he's in his bed you assume that is the bed that's on the shuttle that's bringing him to babylon five yeah because there are other people racked up right and he's having this dream are we to assume that it is on the ship on the way to babylon five that he now receives the sword and has his little psychotic break i don't think so I think that was clearly supposed to like, yeah, like, like, like that's our peek into his mind and we're going to see it more, you know, as the episode goes on. Okay. Here's this, this is a thing. Cause Ivy, Ivy mentions, where do you get the sword? Anyway, this was something that was in his brain.

[25:31] That's what I think. Where did the real sword come from? Cause he's actually carrying a real sword. You got it from a tobacco shop at the mall. Well, that's like, he would have, if, even if this was a dream and like he woke up really thinking he was Arthur, I don't think that's the way that works. He would have still had to taken himself to the mall or to the sword shop. Yeah. Wherever there's a sword shop, found him one paid money for it, credits or whatever. Like, I mean, it doesn't, it just doesn't track with me. You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happened to us come because we actually deserve them. So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. Thoughts on that?

[26:18] I have a lot of thoughts on that, but it surrounds faith. Okay, I'll go there. You guys who've been around for a while, you know, Jeff and I both are people of faith, different faith, but we are still people of faith. So I'm speaking only for me and my belief system. Okay. I just want to be real clear about that. And if you don't believe, totally cool. Just understand this is where I'm coming from. All right. Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them. You see, Jeff, I believe that at their core, all people are sinners, part of our nature. The things that happen, we do deserve. And it's not just like the individual things we do. It's part of our makeup. It's a part of who we are. And so I do, I think in many ways we do deserve these things, you know? But what I find in that is an incredible comfort. You know, there's an old phrase, there before the grace of God go I. Yep. that there is a mighty covering of grace and mercy, you know, and I often hear those two things defined.

[27:16] Mercy is not getting the things that you deserve, not getting the justice you deserve to get. Grace is getting the things you don't deserve. The other one is not getting the stuff you do deserve, right? And I find an incredible outpouring constantly every day in life, for people of faith and people not of faith, for people of different faiths, of a merciful, a graceful, and a benevolent God in higher power that truly loves the entire world. And the things that do happen really are very messed up. And so, yeah, when he was saying that, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair? Yeah, absolutely. It would be much worse if things were fair and we got the things that we did deserve. And thank God for grace and mercy is my thought there. That's my inner thought. You asked me, Jeff, now I ask you. What about you? I kept knocking it around in my head and I kept bumping up against a Rush song, Be You Tough. Well, everyone take a drink. Right? Be You 2B from their Clockwork Angels record. It's their last one. It came out in 2012.

[28:27] It's like a little poem. I'm going to read a couple of the stanzas on it because I think it tells quite a great story. It might line up a little bit with what you were saying too. Because I was brought up to believe the universe has a plan. We're only human. It's not ours to understand. The universe has a plan. All is for the best. Some will be rewarded and the devil take the rest. The joy and pain that we receive each comes with its own cost. The price of what we're winning is the same as what we've lost. Until our final breath, joy and pain that we receive must be what we deserve. That's what I was brought up to believe. I think it's super complicated, right? I think that things happen at an individual level that are unfair. In the chat, a person said, I have a disability. I'm disabled. And my family tells me, hey, no, it's not fair that you are a person that's disabled. It's not fair. And it's real.

[29:25] I think it's a thing that's just at an individual level, things are not fair. You come up to more of a macro level, and maybe it balances. Maybe it's how it's supposed to be. I don't know. But I'll tell you, the way they divvy it out, it's pretty random, right? Good things happen to people that we would say or from our seats would say, oh, they don't deserve that good thing. Just like bad things to happen to people that from our seat would say that they don't deserve for that to happen. But there's more to it, right? I'm not discounting. I'm just talking to the complexity of it all. Yeah. And there's lots of chat. There's lots of questions that are happening over here in the chat. And I don't know that this is the time to get into that particular conversation because that'll take over this whole episode. And I don't think that's what we want to do. However, I would invite anybody. If you have – I see several that are directed to me personally, and I'm sure there's probably some coming to Jeff right now as well. Please feel free to message us because I know we would love to respond to you on that and actually have that conversation. We're not scared of having – I just don't know that diving too far into it is in the scope of what we're trying to do right now. Read that – do that quote from Rush for me one more time, though. I do want to try to lock that in. All right. I'll hold it up because it's – Oh, no. Are you lying to us this whole time? I told you I read it.

[30:41] Jeff, you're supposed to have all of this memorized. The joy and pain that we receive. Joy and pain that we receive. He's staring me in the eyes, folks, trying to remember it and not reading it. I was brought up to believe, right? Sing it. Go. I'd have to sing it to get there. But I'm just going to look it up because I don't want to waste everybody's time with me singing this song that, by the way, is an incredible song. And I listen to the drums on it because the drum part is unreal. The big part he says here, until our final breath, the joy and pain that we receive must be what we deserve. It's what I was brought up to believe.

[31:16] This jewel? Minbari call that Izilza. It means the future. Birth, beginnings, dawn of a new age. Izilza. I like it. It's a subtle language for subtle people. I like both Franklin and Marcus in this scene. This is great. The Minbari say the only way to understand the battle is to understand the language. War is as much concept as execution. What else do they teach you? Delight, respect, compassion. But for your actions to be pure, they must proceed from direction, determination, patience, and strength. I'm afraid of still working on patience. They taught me how to live, how to breathe, how to fight, and how to die. And they taught me terror, how to use it, and how to face it. That gets repeated in the future from Delenn, right? When the rangers are on board.

[32:02] And they launch the war of terror against those punk guys. We're not going to say that over top of the video. What now? So we get that bounced back in the future. There's the scene where the two Minbari ranger, like, initiates or whatever. Get jumped and beat up and is that are you talking about the episode like they were like the the school kids and we thought one of them should have been linear but it wasn't yep yeah okay so i liked that episode and when dylan gets asked about it she's like we're gonna fight back and how we're gonna fight back with terror she says with all this stuff and at the time i was like holy crap where'd that come oh it came from this it was actually very well established so Hey, Jeff, from the first time, it's actually legit. Hey, look at you watching for the first time twice.

[32:48] I'm sorry, sir. Our scanners just picked up a weapons violation. Man, this is like security at Disney World right now. I ain't gonna lie.

[32:59] I still find it very odd that only senior staff gets the new uniforms.

[33:03] Well, Delenn made them. Have I been gone that long? Well, they could just use the replicators. Have you forgotten everything? I am... Son of uther pendragon and king of the britons no man takes excalibur from me and okay we have to have this conversation right now okay okay but before knowing what we know go ahead no no go ahead what i was super fast at jms that piece that chain mail was real and weighed like a metric ton and they didn't plan it that way but they got it and michael york was like hey it's fine i'll deal with it because because peter jackson and uh weta studios or whatever didn't come up with like the little plastic chain link things that they used in uh lord of the rings that was much lighter that had that yet um i have a question okay okay because this changes these entire scenes with him from now on what do we believe about this guy right now does he truly believe that he is king arthur that he has come back that he has been asleep in avalon and he's here for a purpose and and there's all this new stuff that's been dangled and and here's his sword and he really believes that this is Excalibur and this is what's good. Does he truly believe this? Or does he know who he is? Does he know what he did? Does he feel the guilt? And this is a show he is putting on. I think he truly believes it. I think he also knows who he is and knows what he's done. But he's pushed that so far back that all he knows is that he's Arthur. What do you think? I don't know. That's why I asked the question.

[34:30] I can't tell right now whether this is all an act for him or I don't want to pretend like I'm some big mental health expert or some psychologist or psychiatrist. I don't know how things like this work. And I'm going to call it a psychotic break. That might not be the right word. And I don't mean to be insulting to anyone who has suffered one of those or anything like that. I'm not really not trying to do that. I just don't know another word to use. But for a guy who has this kind of a break with reality, I don't know how much they truly I don't know. Do they go in and out of it? Because at some level, he had to buy the sword. He had to buy the chain mail. He had to book passage to Babylon five with a ticket for some reason. And he had to maneuver his way around this shuttle ship while he was on it and sleeping and, and.

[35:20] About like there are certain things that he still would have had to do at this point in his life that i don't know could have been a complete like no i'm straight out of the middle ages you know um i would think yes you can go in and out i think so and i think like i'm not i'm also not a mental health professional but i would stack this up against something like did like a dissociative identity disorder sort of a thing and where it is you're kind of in and out sometimes you're halfway there i wonder if like there was what's it you know whatever is non-artherian name is but he's out shopping for the sword, but there's also this piece of like, you're hunting for Excalibur, you know, like fueling him and pushing him forward to do the thing, giving him the courage to walk into that tobacco shop at the mall so he could buy a sword. And again, this goes back to my lack of knowledge of how this works. Is he seeing Babylon 5 with the security guy there? Is he seeing the tobacco shop? Or is he seeing the caves and the castles and another knight and a castle that's here? Like, what is he seeing with his eyes? What's he interpreting with his brain right now? I don't know. Given what we see later, I think he sees what it is. But I think the thing that makes this character special, and not necessarily just the Michael York character, but the character of Arthur Pendragon special, is he sees the people. And he sees the suffering. And he sees, like, what's really impacting him.

[36:43] A person, regardless of where they are or when they are.

[36:47] And I think getting to the messages piece, I think that's one of the things that he brings to this thing is kindness is timeless, right? And all you have to do is pay attention. So yeah, maybe he sees the guns and he sees the wires and he sees the stuff, but ultimately he sees people who are very aggressive right now. He's only responding to the people.

[37:05] Yeah. Because again, to go back to frankly, what JMS was putting on for us to believe, I could wholeheartedly believe that here's a guy who got plucked out of earth history has lived in vorlon world for a while i don't know if he was on ice or not or if he just lived on vorlon world for a while so he understands that it's been 2 000 years or whatever it's been and so they're like he gets all of this stuff but now he you know um he is going to be who he is and he's going to declare his identity and all that sort of stuff like that don't make sense to me the other stuff i just don't get but here's the other thing let's also track the other side the sword is a symbol of his guilt because he is the one who started the war he is the one who flashed the sword first or drew the first sword or whatever right like this is the symbol of his guilt um he's on a mission looking for the lady of the lake to return the sword i think that's what it is did did he come here specifically for delin i know that's why i'm curious does he know delin is here and he's coming looking for her or is he just looking for any membari excuse me you know he's looking for membari yeah like you know and so he's just going anywhere where he can find him in barry oh babylon 5 that's an international's place let's go there because they're not allowed on earth anymore right now i don't know yeah.

[38:18] Wait leave him to me i also have an accent i can talk to him these men mean you no harm, Your accent, you're a Briton. Yes, my lord, several generations removed from our splendid island, but the roots are We still have the accent. Let me tell you what, I'm several generations removed from that splendid island and I ain't got that accent. We'll send word to Galahad and Lancelot.

[38:39] Galahad is dead. Lancelot is dead. Guinevere and Percival, even Mordred, all of them are dead. I have been gone a long time, a very, very long time, but I am not mad. And set aside your sword. That's a very shiny sword. You're among friends here, Arthur. It's all right i'll take it from here you're sure yeah i assume full responsibility it's all right who is this a doctor i'm in no need of a doctor so take your leeches elsewhere okay first of all that's a really funny line yeah all right that's a funny line take your leeches elsewhere which were they using leeches in arthur's day or because i feel like that's more revolutionary wartime like 1700s type that's pretty timeless is it i don't know i have no idea you don't know the history of medicine jeff i don't it's weird i know i didn't pay attention okay i gotta talk about what franklin just did and garibaldi needs to fire these guys these guys are responsible for the safety and security of the station and you got the doctor saying i'll take full responsibility like okay we'll go ahead with your sword no your security he's not garibaldi wants to come in and call you off that's his prerogative the doctor is like you're not like the chief medical officer is the only one who can give the captain an order yeah but it has to be among about a medical issue It just can't be regular issues, right? Kind of like security guys. Like, no, we're not going to let you do this. You, because we are the, like, you can let them go with you, but we're taking the sword. There's none of, like, no. Just because they're like, okay, cool, whatever.

[40:05] This guy in a uniform said something. Also, this guy we didn't know who we see in Down Below all the time just told us to stay cool. Right.

[40:12] Right. Anyway. Andrew, Andrew points out, you know, these might not be the regular security guys because they, had some people leave and these might just be like the new guys who are coming in they were promised a fifty thousand dollar bonus that they're never really going to get apparently and they're not really as well trained as they like to think they are but you know good news that's going to go with the one striper tsa piece you went a different direction i think they're both appropriate he's just a little late that's all i'm just a little late that's all your journey has been a long one he just wishes to ensure that you are in good health if you refuse my friend will be penalized, harshly. And now Marcus is straight up lying to the king.

[40:51] Very well. I've been treated and prodded and healed by the Nine Sisters since the year of our Lord 515. What is another healer after that? Lead on. I will follow you. Were we naming it 515 A.D. Back in 515 A.D.? I don't know. I don't know that we were counting it by that at that point, were we? That's post-Pope Gregory, so yeah, maybe. Yes, Doctor. Okay. No identification, no travel papers. Nothing that could tell us who he really is. He must have ditched his ID. He was on the Asimov. Somebody asked what shuttle he was on. He was on the Asimov. I think we've had the Asimov here before. A few times. Yeah. Multiple times. Yeah. Three times I asked Bedivere to return Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake. I could not be taken to then. He's feeling bad. By the time he finally did as I asked, it was almost too late. Then... So, what we're hearing is Bedivere did take Excalibur back to the Lady of the Lake. So, why does he have it again?

[41:59] Once again, everything here points to Vorlon activity. Agreed, yeah. Historical myth mixed with established historical fact within the Babylon 5 universe. I submit Jameis is doing this on purpose, right? Yeah, I don't argue with that. at all actually i really i know you said that he's he's setting this up as a ah they're gonna roll their eyes when they see it but then it's gonna be something else in there everybody's gonna love it is he setting this up to to just be the history of the myth or is he subtly saying no this is actually what the vorlons do like because it sounds like what the vorlons do it does also it sounds like what probably actually happened to david mcintyre is his name very similar to him right so he talked about the his old wound and all this stuff and then he was hurt And then they took him to this place, Avalon, where he could rest. They're taking David because he had his break. And they're like, hey, we're going to take care of you for a while, man. Just come here and lay down and do these great drugs and you'll feel better. It'll be great. But now he's experiencing it all through the lens of I'm Arthur.

[42:57] And he said he gave it to Bedivere. He's trying to get it back. I imagine giving it to Bedivere was basically going to his commanding officer or his divo or something and being like, I didn't mean to. Like it wasn't what I wanted. That's not what I wanted to have happen. And I just want to clarify, just in case I misspeak or have already misspoken, because it's entirely possible. I know that the King Arthur myth and legend is just that myth and legend. All of this stuff, it's just part of the story. I also know that there is some, because we just studied it in our history class with my kiddos. There is some historical evidence to a figure whom arthur could have been based upon none of the mythology being a thing this is basically just a warrior guy who brought people together is really all he was yeah um uh so when i talk about a historical fact i'm just meaning within universe or within the mythology and i don't i don't mean to misspeak as if the arthurian legend is real all right i just want to be very clear about that there was no king arthur it's a story Well, not exactly. There's enough historical evidence to suggest that there may have been a real person. All of that's true. Either way, it's pretty obvious this guy is not Arthur. I actually like the fact that what JMS just did in that conversation was address exactly what happened. What is supposed to be happening in everybody's mind.

[44:11] The Arthur thing is not real. Well, there is this historical thing that says something could have happened. Sheridan just puts a cap on it and goes, either way, he ain't it. As interesting a diversion as this might be, our first concern right now. I want to be getting this. What about the sword on the station? I know. Can we deal with that? Here's the thing. Maybe they're not worried about the sword because it's so blunt. You can apparently just grab it by the blade and nothing happens. Like what's he going to do? Just waggle it around. Right. Now I want to highlight a comment here that Mitzi made in the chat. I'm going to reference this after the episode. So I just want to capture it here really quick. She says, maybe David just really, really liked the Arthurian myth stories. And it was the one place of fantasy free from his pain of reality. Sometimes there are bits of fiction that can make a day bearable he just went all the way hold on to that i'll talk about it more after we finish now michael you know the vorlons have been to earth right and from time to time they have taken someone out of their time preserved him until he was needed and revived him your recent encounter with mr sebastian for instance you're not serious.

[45:15] A ship appeared and took Arthur to a place where he would be healed and preserved. Marcus is us. A place from which he would return when he was most needed. Legends are legends because they have a certain power over ideas. By the way, I had my idea for all of that before Marcus ever said that. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I'm sure many people do that. Speech patterns are too contemporary. His vocabulary is all wrong. The question we should be asking is what made him tip over? I scanned his neurosystem. It's fully intact. So whatever's wrong is functional. It's not organic. Maybe the result of a trauma. I will say this. Breakdown. Okay. at this moment right here the idea that he possibly could be the real king arthur and the whole thing with the vorlons should immediately have gone out the window because jms is telling us in the conversations he's telling us that guy's not king arthur he just said the vocabulary is all wrong the dress is all wrong all of this is all wrong this is not the bigger question is what's pushed him over the edge so for for anyone for anyone to hold on to the idea that this guy I actually could be Arthur and that this is a Vorlon thing. At this moment, you should be saying, no, that's not the case. And this is actually a regular person who's dealing with some sort of a break. And we have to explore that.

[46:24] Like JMS is telling, this is not... He's not pulling a fast one on us here. He is telling us at what? 15 minutes into the episode with 30 minutes left. What you're thinking ain't it? Ha ha ha. Yeah. Marcus is going to tell you what you thought it was. Yeah. And now Franklin's going to tell you. Nope. And we're going to move on. And by the way, I, I'm not sure what, there was a point in the first watch that I did with this that I, cause I was loving every bit of it. I was like, dude, if he turns out not to be, to really not be Arthur, I'm going to be so mad.

[46:52] Like I was, cause I was so, I was so loving this idea. You know, um, Glenn. Him 17 i'm sorry dylan points this out i have to address this right here right now dylan who by the way our satai dylan uh one of our rangers here on our discord page um put together that incredible previously on video for us right um so dylan also very intimately associated with not just our conversation but also your reaction video as well recent it's very recent in her memory okay She says, and she asks, Jeff, you were really against Franklin questioning if he really was Arthur, but you're having a very different reaction today. Do you have words, Jeff? I am having a very different reaction because I know the end. I think I had, I might maybe possibly have had a bit of a bias against Dr. Franklin the first time I watched it. And I really just took this as him dismissing someone who may be from the Vorlon or may have a medical condition. And Dr. Franklin's just like, oh, I don't think it's going to be the thing. So it's not the thing. That's how I probably heard it the first time. Almost as if my bias clouded my vision. That happens. A bias, which, by the way, I would say was earned by the writer who set you up to have such bias. Maybe, yeah. Although this time I'm hearing it very differently. I hear a lot of compassion in Dr. Franklin.

[48:11] Speak, boy. Well, listen to him and look at his face. He's just like, God, he suffered. This guy suffered something horrible. Dude, I will tell you this right now. There is not a thing that Dr. Franklin has done yet in this episode that I have a single iota of an issue with. Outside of telling security that everything's cool. But that's a security thing. I have a problem with security being like, okay, but I'm cool with what Franklin should have tried to call them off. That's actually what he should have done. And he is chief. He is one of the senior staff. So maybe they defer to him just based on senior staff. I, you know, I don't know if he has that authority to do that or not, but whatever. Doctor, the patient you were holding in Isolab one, I don't know what happened to him, but he's escaped. All right. We got to go. People tend to get out of Isolab pretty easy. Don't they? I know. Marcus did. King Arthur did. I feel like there's a few other people that do over the course of the show. So he's out here on this quest to give the sword back to the Lady of the Lake, yet this is what he chooses to do. I think it's incredible.

[49:11] I told you a hundred credits by yesterday or we beat the crap out of you. Now, why do you make me do this? Is that the post office guy trying to chase down his hundred credits? He put the chainmail hood up. So what happens if his chainmail gets hit by that hot plasma burst? Yeah, it might be okay. Like it might not pierce it. Or it melts the metal to his chest. Cowards, I think. You better put that pig sticker away before you end up eating it. You have something that does not belong. A picture frame gives me the spinoff that I really want now out of this episode. Which is? King Arthur. Superhero of Down Below. Some dude dressing up and fighting crime. He's like the Batman of Babylon 5. Totally. It'd be great. I got a guy wearing armor and a sword. I'm probably not going to swing at him. No. Any time you could do that with the sword, the little whooshy thing? Dude, you're badass, man. Those things are heavy. Not a chance. I've got friends. That's all right. He's got friends too. That's all right. I love it. I love it. So he's jumping over that rail. And that is iconic. He heard the calling of his heart. Here's Ja'far or Ja'far. Ja'kar.

[50:29] We're going to skip over that whole fight scene for apparent reasons, and here's the outcome. They actually shot it. It just didn't turn out very well, so they had to just skip it. Dude, look at him. He had that hood mail up, took it down. Not a hair is out of place. Perfect. Proof that he's from the Vorlon. These arms are considered dangerous. Don't get too close. If you find anything, you let me know. No moral ambiguity.

[50:53] No hopeless battle against ancient and overwhelming forces. They were the bad guys, as you say. We were the good guys. And they made a good sentence. Ah, love it. I use that quote as often as I can. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. It's wrong for the strong to pray on the weak. JMS says, Virtually all food that you see used is real for health reasons. The liquid drunk by Jakar and Arthur is you who. Dig it. Yeah. Back in season one, when Michael Garibaldi had a big old pile of food, uh that was piled meatloaf when he ate the spaghetti the bonacuda and stuff that was actually real real food but i thought it was kind of neat they used yoohoo is yoohoo even a thing anymore oh yeah absolutely oh yeah yeah yeah i i mean i can't imagine people eating fake food you know what you will see a lot is people that are they never like they have food in front of them they have a fork they never actually eat it they'll be like yeah that's exactly what i think i'm just gonna hold this and they just hold it they put it down they get it close to their mouth They put it back down because they're going to say something, but they never actually eat it. Yeah, it does happen quite a bit of continuity to be hard. And by some point you're going to throw up the heart of the round table to correct injustice to promote a society of laws, not arms. Well, sir, that is the purpose which God and the crown have set.

[52:14] I cannot achieve that locked away in some room. I love seeing Jakar opened up. I sense a new warrior born. He talked about being locked in a room. He did. Is that like an insane asylum room? And he's actually an escaped insane asylum patient. You know, he has, as a medical patient, he has the ability to get out of places. He's about to explain it a little bit. Refined education.

[52:37] My knights were such men as you. Well, we're not exactly such as you. The eyes were not. yeah dude for somebody from the 16th century that is not i would lose my mind if i saw somebody your good arm to my defense and you shall sit at my right hand at the new round table and you shall be known as surge no more citizen it's now oh he's taking that serious i love the fact he calls him jacar jacar uh-huh jacar not jacar jacar londo calls him that too it's like Londo and Arthur. Jakar. The two loves of his life, really. Truly. Mm-hmm. You seem to take our battle quite personal only, as if what they had done offended you. It did. At Camlin Field, my knights lay dying or dead. As dawn spread across the bloody ground, I saw others moving among them, like specters risen from some unholy grave, stealing their swords, their jewels, their crests, their rings. My knights were there because of me. I was responsible. So right now, he's thinking about when he pulled the trigger and the knights being his fellow soldiers. Yeah.

[54:02] I think that right there was our very first actual hint that like, this is a for now thing. This is, there is something going on here. Yeah. It was a dream. That's all. So if we look at it through the lens of what happened, right? So they come in, Minbari have their gun ports open. David McIntyre is sitting there, gunner, gunner's mate too, or whatever, ready to follow orders. All hell breaks loose, right? He fires the shot that he was ordered to do. He just, you know, um, And then boom, boom, boom, boom. So then he talks about, he saw it happen. All the, the unholy monsters coming in, swooping in, stealing their swords, their rings, their valuables. And it was all my responsibility. What do you think was actually happening? Like, what is he translating in his mind? So I feel like if he saw Minbari, he would have called that an unholy creature.

[54:53] Well, I, I think, um, cause this is where we have to go compare it to atonement, right? Um, when they launched their fighters, it wasn't just their ship shooting out of them. They launched like their little peon guys and stuff. Right. So I think that's probably a lot of what he, you know, those guys coming out, shooting back at them, stealing the little things here and there. I, I, that's nothing, you know, that's, that's some over-interpretation, but I think it really is just whatever however he's trying to describe that mimbari attack that just went bonzo on him the chat over here um is saying maybe it was the soul hunters i think that's an interesting take maybe i mean listen we don't have any evidence that the soul hunters showed up during well yeah they did because they showed up for uh dakot right yeah but they all stood in a thing around dakot and they wouldn't let him take his soul so they were there right that's right so that could be it that would be oh because we know those look those little glowy things and they kind of look like that that could be that could be okay i'm just finding it about that interesting as we like get these little nuggets dropped it's like oh okay once you know the story yeah but don't forget the the soul hunters require some major contraption things set up like it's not just a hey let's let's walk in there like you gotta have a whole deal.

[56:12] Our armies have been told to watch and attack if that is what happened we just finished our negotiations when one of mordred's knights saw an adder about to strike so he he drew his sword the others saw it and the killing started okay now he just said one of mordred's knights saw an adder and he drew his sword and the killing started if we assume his ship is arthur and the other ship is mordred right he says that one of mordred's knights saw the adder and drew his sword when really he was the one who saw the adder and fired his shot or he's talking about them arriving with their gun ports open maybe i think it might but i don't think that's i think i what because what strikes me about this is is here he is actually shifting blame off of himself he is assigning what he did actually to somebody else but when in reality that's actually what he did except he didn't see this is where i get hung up on the thing and i under and i don't like belittle his trauma it's still a super traumatic thing but he didn't see anything he didn't react to anything he wasn't like oh i'm going to shoot them yeah they're like he's like fire i yes sir and pulled the trigger, which we'll see, I think, here in a little bit. Sure.

[57:33] I took some DNA samples from Arthur, in case we might find something in the genetic record files. You see, everyone who joins Earth Force has his unique DNA sequence mapped and logged for identification purposes. He was in Earth Force doing what?

[57:48] You can't show him this. Marcus, it's who he is. I don't care. Kill him. Wait, now, wait, now. Let's be sensible, all right? This is the first step towards healing him. You can't just let him wander around the rest of his life thinking that he's King Arthur. Why not? Because this is the truth. Better the illusions that exalt us than 10,000 truths. Alexander Pushkin, yes. Let this one truth die, Stephen. Let him be Arthur. Let him be anyone he wants. I have an obligation to help. Now, if I confront him with this, it may be enough to snap him out of this delusion. Your Hippocratic oath says do no harm. If you do this, you'll be doing great harm, Stephen. Stephen, I'm sorry. We don't know anything about dealing with mental health at this point in society. So, I mean, I'm just going to go shake him out of it. So, this would be the place where Jeff and Brent would really bag on Franklin. Uh-huh. Because he's right no matter what. Even though here he is very wrong. Do you still think he's wrong right now? I do. I think he's right in that he can't be Arthur forever. But he's very wrong and i'm gonna blast him with his information it'll shock him back to who he is because i'm dr franklin i'm not so sure he's going to tell him the truth of who he is yeah i don't know i don't well there's a way to do it i don't i don't see it as bad as i did the first time around is what i'm saying i don't see it as badly as the first time but i still think he's very wrong and thinks he's very right oh he definitely thinks he's very right yeah well he seems a Quite handsome, if I say so myself. I don't know him. It's you. He doesn't even look like me!

[59:14] Don't think so david mcintyre age 52 serial brother of wwe champion drew mcintyre honorable discharge from earth force whoa whoa whoa 53 stop who just clicked the more info button.

[59:31] It literally says more info no no watch it i'm gonna rewind it and i want you to watch it the button gets clicked but no one's clicking it he doesn't have a mouse pad in his hand he doesn't reach up and touch the screen like like you we understand as a computer that this is a graphic they're recording and all that sort of stuff somebody somewhere is sitting there with the mouse button clicking more info to get it to move on like like they really built this as a web page or something and and that's what they're putting up there seriously watch it it gets clicked david mcintyre watch the button age 52 serial number yep it got clicked 59 did you see it did honorable discharge from earth force february 9th i'm gonna say it's dungeon crawler carl technology where he just thinks it and it presses it well there's a few there's a in our chat our council chambers chat there's there's a few ideas in there michael says it could be eye tracking okay uh-huh you know we've got google glass and stuff like that in the future sure uh delen says uh they can use buttons on their link to operate the screens which we do know yeah that's true we do know that's true.

[1:00:35] It's possible we could that franklin could have reached over and touched something on his link we just didn't see it because it was off screen that it's entirely possible andy says that uh it's babylon 5 bluetooth b5b and andrew says it's the future ghosts are working on the station now nia says voice activation as franklin's talking it just automatically knows so and suzanne to cap it all off sacrilege it's the harlan ellison ai coming back never again Suzanne wins this whole conversation. Never again.

[1:01:06] It also shows you were gunnery sergeant on the Prometheus. That's the ship from Stargate. Prometheus brought fire from the gods. This Prometheus was the first ship to encounter the Minbari. Today? 15 years ago today. Ooh. Now, there was a misunderstanding. The Minbari approached with their gun ports open. It's a sign of respect. The captain, he interpreted this as...

[1:01:44] This has nothing to do with me you join the military i did not but go ahead we're just gonna walk down a little alternate path okay in the allen history you join the the military the navy as a gunner's mate okay you go to school you're trained to shoot and blow things up and ultimately kill people like okay we're in the military that's what we're there for and then you do it as i'm saying this i'm talking myself out of where i was going i'm like was his response reasonable. They believe they're being threatened by this fricking monster of a ship they've never seen before. He does the thing he's been trained to do. In fact, he probably actually did it during the Dilgar war is going to be my guess. So he's like, oh God, I don't know if that's a reasonable response.

[1:02:32] It's not a reasonable response. Okay. You're a hundred percent right about that there's a couple of things that that immediately come to my mind um i'm gonna give you a couple scenarios where i think this becomes plausible but then i'm gonna tell you what i think is really going on okay um i think a part of what could really be plausible have you ever done like you've been you've you've done training you've gone to something you've done it and then when the moment arrived you couldn't do it you couldn't do it or it was really hard for something like you thought you were ready you prepared for it you'd done the thing yeah but when the time actually comes you chicken out or you you really struggle with it in the moment or something of that nature that could be something that's happening here is this is a guy who never should have been a gunner's mate he never should have been in that position because he truly can't handle but he thought he could he went through he passed all the the certifications he did the training you know so that could be a thing that's happening here what i really think is happening here and ben says it in the chat and i fully agree with ben I don't think that what we saw there is what actually happened in history.

[1:03:29] I think what we saw was current David McIntyre embodying body of former David McIntyre and the closing the eyes and the response is his guilt now flashing back into the past. Okay, that makes sense. I get that. That's the way I interpret that particular scene. I don't think that that's what he probably did in the moment because you're right. As far as they knew, they were getting ready to get blown out of the sky. He's looking back on, oh my God, I'm the one who started the war because I pushed the button. Exactly. And he's like, oh God. Yeah. The attack destroyed two Minbari vessels and killed their leader Dukat and started the Earth-Minbari War. Now, if you were a gunnery sergeant on the Prometheus, you fired those shots. No. It was the sword that struck the adder that started the battle. No, it was not a sword. It was a ship. So here he's going back to, it wasn't his fault. It was Mordred's fault. It wasn't his fault. It was Mordred's fault.

[1:04:28] Okay i'm gonna say something i was gonna hold this for them but now bears the thing i actually very much decried michael york's performance in this episode the first time around okay i still did i didn't grow up with michael york i don't have the nostalgia for michael york i don't have the love for michael york that a lot of people do coming into this okay i just i don't yeah it doesn't exist within me so i'm judging his performance based on what i see here so far he's a damn good actor yeah he has played this role and even this part right here to perfection there is a part coming up in a moment that sticks in my memory i'm interested to see my response in just a few moments that's the part that i have a problem with but so far like his struggling to go back and forth with breaking with what actually happened versus what he's trying to convince i see i think at this point he's trying to convince himself i think when we saw him talking to jacar he knew the truth he was trying to convince himself that you ever tell a lie and you tell a lie enough times that you want to believe it but you actually know the truth but you're going to stick to the lie and you're just trying to convince like this is you know uh maybe i don't know you buff your high school football resume a little bit al bundy you know like four touchdowns one game right yeah you know did he really though you know you know what i did though for real i went through four defensive tackles in one game that's pretty great broke two arms gave one dude a concussion the fourth guy i was just like dude just stand.

[1:05:53] There i won't hurt you that's a true story watching your kid play makes so much more sense now yes it does i love it anyway i'm going to retract what i said about michael york's performance the first time around he is doing fantastic and i see why people love him so much and i see why he has uh why he was such a big get and and this in the hands of a lesser actor bad would be really really bad i think he's doing really great right now in the orders of your commanding officer, and despite bouts of depression that continue to get longer and if we could see in his mind right now you would have david mcintyre and king arthur fighting like it's that it's that scene they died in the minbar i was responsible no responsible for my knights and for those who followed me into battle and their armor was not strong enough to protect them their horses their horses were on fire he's doing such a great job this is powerful acting the old wound the old wound.

[1:07:09] Pain of memory you can see we can face here's the thing this is the way brent's interpreting what's happening right now he knows who he is and he's trying to convince himself that it's this other thing right not that he really thinks he's arthur and he's he's truly believing all that i don't think i don't think he really believes he's arthur i think he really knows who he is and what's going on and he's trying to convince himself otherwise i don't i that's what i'm saying i think this is all an act from him yeah i think it actually makes more sense to me you think it's the exact opposite yeah it's a defense mechanism his brain has put forward for him like it's an actual mental thing i think it might be i think it i think there's a big piece of it that might be that but i think he like he's or maybe maybe i better say the real david mcintyre is breaking through and he's fighting against the real david mcintyre breaking through yes yeah and he's like the pain the pain it's like no that's not the pain dude that's just your heart like what it is it's unprocessed guilt right when you have feelings they don't go away because you don't process them and.

[1:08:10] Part of his, he constructed this King Arthur thing, his own Arthurian legend. And now that like David is breaking out, so is the guilt. And that guilt is physically, like it hurts because it's been sitting for so long. But this is his coping mechanism. Exactly. Yeah. And that's why I go back to it. He doesn't really believe he's Arthur. This is just his coping mechanism with how he's doing it. By the way, I also want to say this about Franklin.

[1:08:32] In no way, shape or form does Franklin beat him over the head like a club with this information. The way dr franklin is putting this out to him i feel it's very measured is is is um compassionate but truthful i i don't think that this is he's just bashing him over the head like a club um he is presenting this and he he is with him compassionately actually like i'm i'm looking just the shot that we froze this on is like this is a guy doing medical work here helping this guy through so i don't know that's just my turn i don't see dr franklin being a big boo-boo on this particular episode i really don't i think he's doing it with a tremendous amount of compassion i still think it's the wrong way to do this and i think that like in 1996 this is probably the way to do this sure 2026 we know much better and this isn't how you do it but through its time sure and i'll fully confess even in 2026 i'm not a mental health professional i don't know the right way to do it this seems okay to me i can never rest the pain will never go away.

[1:09:41] Okay this is the part i have a problem the lady of the lake i this is actually okay, i didn't know okay him holding his hands out in this dream sequence this makes no sense to me couldn't know but it's, It's slain. The dying. Body is drifting. This is either a writing, a directing, a something. This is the part that gets me right now. Dude, if he pulled this sword out and tried to off himself with it. Yeah. My fault. Now he's going to grab the sword. But wait, the sword is in. Wait. Now it's behind him. And this part right here. Come on now. I don't. Ah!

[1:10:33] David okay the idea that this really is happening to him in his head or otherwise, i i'm not processing right now the symbolism of what's happening here let's dive into that yeah because i think it's fantastic okay he holds the sword the sword is a sign of his guilt he picks his sword up he's not brandishing it like a weapon he's holding it delicately it's an offering right.

[1:10:56] He he's holding it out he pulls begins to pull the thing out almost like he's gonna do something with it. And all of a sudden in his dream, as he's reaching for his guilt, he's going to accept it. He's going to receive it. It transfers magic and it stabs him in the back and it puts him in this, whatever catatonic state he's now in the idea, the idea, Jeff, you use the phrase unresolved guilt a few moments ago, folks, this is what unresolved guilt can do to you. It can set you into a catastonic state. You, you can't carry the human mind. The human brain is not designed to carry guilt like this. And the thing is, regardless if it's misplaced guilt or not, can we agree that his guilt is misplaced? Oh yeah, absolutely.

[1:11:41] He should not be feeling like he is responsible for this. Yes. He pushed the button. Yes. He, he did all of that. He honestly, he was acting out of order under orders. He was acting because the memory right, wrong or indifferent culturally misunderstanding or not they approach gun ports open and in most other cultures that means war and the minbari have been around long enough that they know that that is the case for other cultures they should not have done it like that the minbari are the ones who insisted that their way is the right way that their way is the cultural way that they're going to approach everything according to their customs and everybody has to bend to their rules knowing and i'm assuming that they knew just because of their their length in the galaxy interacting with other cultures, that that is generally not the way people approach new people, okay? But his guilt that he put upon himself has been...

[1:12:32] Gnawing at him for, what do we say? 15 years. Humans kind, we are not meant to carry guilt like that. We have to deal with it in one way or another. We have to deal with it. Now what's, I'm not going to sit here and pontificate and prescribe the way to deal with guilt every single time, because that's, there's no one way. And every single time, no, I will simply say, if you're carrying guilt, find a mental health, find somebody, find a stranger. I find strangers. I don't need somebody that I know. I need a stranger. That's the way Brent operates, right? Somebody who can help me, that I can talk to, that's not going to be interacting with me in my everyday life, right? But if you're carrying guilt, whether you believe you deserve it or not, you need to figure it out. Do the work with it is really, I think, what we're selling here. Because unresolved guilt like this, maybe not literally lead to a severe psychotic break and lead to a catatonic state. Maybe not literally, maybe for some people it is very literal for most people, probably not that literal, but metaphorically it can freeze us in time.

[1:13:38] I know people who have carried around. I've known people who've carried around grudges and it froze them in time to go back to one of our favorite star Trek quotes. You live here. Why do you live here? You have to get past here. Yeah. And if you don't know what that is, go watch the pilot episode of deep space night. So I think in this case, what has happened to him ultimately is he had the guilt from firing the weapon, pulling the trigger, essentially.

[1:14:02] But like we found out in this, he kept volunteering and showing up for more. He wanted to die. Like he was carrying this and wanted to not experience it anymore. All the way through the Battle of the Line, right? Which we saw, and it's horrifyingly traumatic and horrific. And he survived all of that. so he broke whatever that was and part of that breaking was he had so much guilt he was survivor's guilt the guilt of, you know, being the one who pulled the trigger, that he had to just go away. I can't exist in this body anymore. I can't be here. It's dissociation. And not disassociation, but dissociation. It's a different thing. But you can't not have something inside of you, right? And so a thing that was meaningful to him as a person, to David McIntyre, showed up and took that place. And as King Arthur, he can right the wrongs. He can go get the picture in the picture frame for the old lady it doesn't save a quarter million people but it it starts to heal that wound a little bit but what franklin has done here is essentially created the conflict.

[1:15:09] Inside of his brain david mcintyre who hasn't been present, for a very long time, King Arthur, bringing David McIntyre back. In this moment, when that sword plunged into his back, David McIntyre opened his eyes for the first time in 15 years. And he's like, oh my God, I cannot. And so he shuts down. He's got so much just like stuff that has to happen before he can even open his eyes and like accept any sort of reality. So I think it is really in a real way is like the real person hasn't experienced reality for a very long time. Maybe, but that, yeah, this, this, uh, the, the message, the lesson we have to deal with our guilt misplaced or not, we have, we have to deal with it. We have to deal with it. And the thing is, we can't tell you how to deal with it. It's different for each person. Like, like it's so much easier said than done. Can we acknowledge that? Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, and, and for those of you who are in the middle of working, if you need to start working through it, Jeff and I are here cheering you on saying, get to it. If you're in the middle of working through it, Jeff and I are here cheering you on saying, stay with it, take it a day at a time. And if you have dealt with it and you've come to the other side of it and you're comfortable with it, please send us an email. Jeff and I would love to hear your story. Absolutely. Can you hear me? So while for the most part, I'm not saying this can't ever happen in reality. This is not what actually happens in reality with stuff like this, generally speaking. I don't think it does. I could be wrong. It does sort of.

[1:16:36] Anything yet i just got words but i'm going with the metaphorical side of this what's left of the league like a number of them refuse to sign the mutual defense treaty but i think i mean it's not a beat like this is how it goes down but i think pretty darn close to this happens maybe i yeah i mean i mean go watch or read moon knight that's another story but like the marvel thing okay also i'm talking in reality reality not other fiction like well i am too this is this is how like this This is not an unheard of thing. And again, I'm not saying that it can never happen. But by and large, that's like when you come to that spot, like there's a – I don't know. I don't know. I need to stop talking. I need to stop talking. Excalibur.

[1:17:22] Symbol of the king yeah but in this case the symbol of the ship and his pain what's the story so right here and this is where i'm going to go back and appeal to everything we're seeing here is really just supposed to be metaphor franklin because franklin's taking everything okay this is a metaphor this is a metaphor this is explaining this this is explaining this this is explaining this and then we're going to stay with the metaphor and that's what's going to solve this whole situation as we know it's getting ready to happen here in just a few months yeah okay so i think again that's where i like this whole piece becomes more like metaphor and and the part that seals this still for me at least in my mind we'll see here in just a few minutes if it stays it's all of a sudden he's just better and he's off and and they're going to take him and let him go be like a military leader on norn or something like that like what yeah what like no this guy needs some more work to do but i just if the whole episode and the whole thing with david here really is taken more as metaphor, as allegorical, I find all of this much more palatable and much more acceptable. If you're expecting me to believe that this is an actual story of something that really happened within this universe to a real person, particularly where the knight stabs, this is the part that it goes a little over the top for me, for me and where I am. The metaphor I think is beautiful with where he's got. And he's still, he's in the state and he's still clutching the sword, he's still clutching his guilt.

[1:18:43] He's clutching his guilt. How do we get how, and here's the thing, here's the other thing, Jeff, that I hadn't thought about till this very moment. We keep talking about him and him dealing with it. We see Franklin and Marcus here trying to help him.

[1:18:54] What is this saying about, responsibility is not the right word, but about what it is for us as human beings to help our other fellow human beings in need, to help them figure out their stuff, right? Yeah. To carry their load for them, to help them get the help they need, to help them get to the resolution that they need to be to. Marcus is in it with him, man. Marcus is personally invested, and frankly, so is Dr. Franklin. Well, we see this from Marcus a lot. We see this from Franklin a lot. Yeah, they get side by side. It might be right, wrong, or indifferent, but Franklin's invested in people's lives, trying to help them. Sorry, keep going. I was just going to say, that's a thing for Marcus. We also saw it from Arthur in this on a different scale, but like I'm going to go down and do these things. I think it goes down to if you're suffering, I'm suffering. And there's an interesting thing. So here's Arthur, a person who's going and helping other people, seeing people and helping people. He sees an old woman and he sees a person and he goes to help that person. Right now. He is the one in need of help because he's, and there's the thing. He can't solve this on his own. Right. He can't fix it. He's, he's in such a state where he is so far gone. He cannot solve it on his own. And here's Marcus and Franklin still concerned. They're not just writing them off being like, not like what I did in the first watch. You know what I mean? Yeah. They're staying with him. Now we've got to figure this out. We've got to help him.

[1:20:19] Can I help our little buddy Arthur over there? He said he couldn't know peace or rest until the lady took back Excalibur, the king's.

[1:20:29] King's pain that's why he came here to find someone not specifically looking for dylan right yeah but if that's excalibur and your bed of it who's the lady of the lake any female membari does it have to even be female jeff i don't think so i think any membari yeah i think there's like hey we actually have like one of the best ones here let's go grab her literally literally a representative representative of the entire race who by the way has been transformed and somehow understands you mm-hmm.

[1:21:10] Also the way he's handling that that sword is clearly plastic like swords are heavier than that please tell me there's a note from james that this is like a real sword from somewhere.

[1:21:21] Yeah no no on the sword just the chain mail oh man because that was yeah he flipped that thing like it was way nothing i want to call out just how incredible delen is here she owes this guy nothing right right this is just some earth force guy who's got a thing but here she is giving her whole self to him but this is more of the same thing of what we were just talking about with marcus and franklin they owe him nothing right yeah and they're but they're giving their whole self trying to help him out yeah right they're invested in somebody who whatever now think about the connection here right now that dylan knows he doesn't if dylan knows who this guy is he's the guy who pushed the button he's the guy who started the war he's the guy who okay did you caught dying in the first volley? Pretty much. Okay. So this is the guy who pushed the button that killed Dukat. Yeah. Right. She has every, every right to be bitter with this guy. And she has gone in here to not just to help him, but I mean, to meet him and to maybe, I mean, did she even know what she was walking into? Like, did she know how she was going to respond? You ever been to one of those? Like, look, I don't know how I'm going to respond going into this. Right. Yeah. Let's see what happens. You know, but I'm going to go in and she goes through this whole piece. I don't think they say a word to each other here. What I think is interesting is you could make the argument that David started the war. You can make the argument that Delenn started the war. The reality is there is so much more going on. Neither one of them actually did, but both of them carry all the guilt of starting the war. Yeah. These two right here. Right here.

[1:22:50] Right here. And both people, I think we could say, inappropriately carry the guilt of the war. Agreed. Yeah. They shouldn't be carrying this. Delenn's like, she was the last vote. It was split 50-50 and she was the deciding vote. And so now it's her fault. No, it wasn't your fault. You just happened to be the last one to cast your vote. Yeah. What if you were the second person? Then it's somebody else's fault. No. What if you were the, okay, how many people are there? There's not. What if you were the eighth person on the council to cast your vote? Then somebody else gets the, or you will have already decided because you would have been number four. Yeah.

[1:23:21] So no, it's, no, it's not your fault. Okay. Hey, David McIntyre, it's not your fault, dude. It's not your fault. And Ben pointed out just kind of the neatness here of he passes this sword to her. She accepts it and receives it. And, you know, 16 episodes later, we get to atonement and now she has to deal with this guilt. That maybe he passed on to her, which actually I think that's, she's been carrying it secretively the whole way. It's just not sent her into this state here.

[1:23:49] But can we also stop and go with, again, the metaphor, because this again just works with me way better as an allegory than it does taking it as actual something legitimate in science fiction, because it's all fiction. He is able to release, look what happens when he is able to release this guilt. He has been clutching he has been hanging on to. The freedom that that can bring almost instantaneously. Yeah. That's where I lose this, this episode. What do you mean? The instantaneous release of everything. I, again, if I'm with you, if you interpret this as a real story, that's supposed to really be happening, which we are, but if you just take this on the metaphorical side on the parable side, yeah, it's beautiful. Works beautiful. Yeah. But one ounce of reality into it and it's ridiculous. It falls apart so fast, so fast. But given everything in there, I again retract to us that Michael York has acted his ass off. Yeah, big time. It's fantastic. I think it's what I need to do. My people will treat him well, doctor. He will be welcomed and put in a position of authority and resistance. Send him to Narn. Let him heal. Don't put him in a position of authority. But organizing others into something better and nobler.

[1:25:02] We are in great need of such ideas such men a new round jms says oh in answer to the question will we hear more about arthur's exploits with the narn nope not going to hear any more about that but and to like take that and put it with some of the chatter in the chat right now they can't afford michael york again they have to wrap a bow on this in this one little episode and send it off i wonder how much michael york charged them for this episode more than eight dollars well but i mean like like did he come in surely he didn't come in at like the union minimum to like throw him a bone you know i'm sure he i'm i'm sure they they blew a couple episodes budget on him for this one yeah well i guess i've heard worse ideas in my time i just wish you could stay just yeah it's a good idea actually sure you're okay doctor i'm healed god if only it was just like one journey has ended i'm good now another back mission accomplished what did he say there Hold on just a sec. One journey has ended. Another Beckham. That's interesting. One journey ends and another begins. The being able to turn the page, move on.

[1:26:09] Also, again, going back to the metaphor, okay? Holding onto this guilt, holding onto this will separate your body and your spirit. Yeah. And it is only until you can release that, that your body and spirit can become one again and you can move forward and turn the page. Because as long as you live here, you can't turn the page. I don't know what it takes to deal with it. I wish I had that answer. I don't.

[1:26:31] And Ben points out that's what Lorian says to Sheridan in Sleeping in Light. This journey ends and another begins. Oh, that's awesome. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. Next thing you'll be saying is he's not Merlin. Merlin was a great teacher, you know. I'm not hearing this. They say he aged backwards. That was how he was able to foretell the future, by remembering it. Maybe he had Arthur form the round table by remembering us. We're forming one of our own, after all. No, he's Bedivere. On this, JMS says. Regarding Marcus's... Wait, stop. Stop. Can I make a prediction? Okay. I haven't read this. This is based solely on all the freaking comments that we got the first time around. Franklin's going to be somebody and he's going to be somebody. But we asked the question, who's more kind of Le Fay? Is that where he's going with this? Kind of. Because it's just one of those. So many people ask the damn question. This is not an individual coming up with the idea or 50,000 people all coming up with the same idea. Somebody put this idea out there and everybody leaps onto it. It's exactly how that works. Go ahead, Jeff. What's he have to say? Yeah, not in this case. He just simply says, sometimes offhand remarks are only offhand remarks, and sometimes they ain't. He said it somewhere. Somebody has said it somewhere. So the question is. It's very much a, hey, if the plot needs it, it'll mean something. If it doesn't, Marcus just said a thing.

[1:27:47] The plot needs sometimes an offhanded remark is just an offhanded remark and sometimes it ain't. Yeah. Was that in direct response to a question about who is Morgana Le Fay? Yeah. Well, who, who, who is he talking about? Why did he say that? What's it going to lead to? There were multiple comments where people ask that. Yeah. Yeah. Went on and on. Well, Brent, you hit it pretty hard during the episode itself. You apologized at the beginning. You've recanted a number of your statements. Is there anything else that you want to say on this one? You know, Jeff, I have broken one of my chief rules of podcasting all throughout this episode.

[1:28:27] One of those rules is if I don't have personal experience with a situation or I'm not an expert in a situation, I just try not to comment on it at all. I don't have a lot of experience with psychotic breaks. I don't have a lot of experience with helping people through psychotic breaks or what it takes to medically clear all of that sort of stuff. I certainly have had experience, though, with what it means to carry guilt and the damage that that can do to your soul and having to work through that. I've never had to go through it with professionals like this, not not carrying guilt. I've had my other stuff I've had to do with with professionals, but not with this particular thing. But I have had to deal with those things, but it's never been on this. And so I have commented a lot on what I think is real or what I don't think is real and where I find things hard to believe. what I find actually a bit offensive at how they deal with stuff.

[1:29:20] And, you know, they're the.

[1:29:26] Don't address this or not. I'm seeing one in the chat right now and I expect to see more in comments later. A few, I told you so's okay. Cause one of the criticisms that I received the first time around was, uh, it's just your expectations. You didn't, what happened, what you thought was going to happen, didn't happen. So you were pissed off. That's not why I didn't like the episode. I didn't like the episode because I didn't like the episode because I thought it handled things really, really poorly and really, really badly. And I still, I right now I've been telling you, I like, I I've repeatedly said, I don't think this is how it really goes down. And I don't like, I don't like you asking me this expert to believe that this is something real that happened with this particular guy. I can now accept it as a metaphor. I can set aside the idea that you're asking me to believe this in real. And when I look at this as an allegory, when I look at this as a metaphor, it's a beautiful episode all the way through. The stuff about Garibaldi, the stuff about Jakar, it's hilarious. It's great. Marcus is fantastic. Franklin, actually, I know you shat on him for most of the episode last time, and you're still kind of there with him right now. I think Marcus is a gosh dang hero right now. But not Marcus.

[1:30:30] Franklin. I think Franklin's a gosh-dang hero. Yeah. And because even though he talks about it, I'm just going to tell him the truth. When we watched the way he handled it, he was measured. He was compassionate. He handled it like a pro. And, again, not a health professional. I can't tell you that that's the way it should have been done. But based on just my own personal lay watching, I really liked – I thought Franklin handled himself and accorded himself very well. And the whole thing about his stim addiction and thinking he's better than everybody and all that kind of stuff, I didn't catch a whiff of that in this episode. I do remember thinking it the first time I watched it, though.

[1:31:09] I still have trouble believing and coming up with this idea that he's immediately healed and he can go be put in a position of authority somewhere else. Yeah. No, no. But again, if this is metaphor, if this is allegory, totally cool with it. And I think this is certainly a much better episode than what I gave it credit for the first time around. But I have to still put it with the caveat of, if it's metaphor, if it's real, I think it plays fast and loose with some rather serious issues that, that I'm not really even that qualified to talk about. JMS psychologist has shit. Maybe he knows more than I do. I'm sure he does. Actually, I'm sure he does. Okay. I'll give him that, but I don't see it. So I don't know. Those are some, some thoughts I had, Jeff, how about you, man? You know, on the, on the point of it being like, oh, he's just better or whatever. And that it really bothers me. Also, it's a product of its time. I mean, how many times do we see Picard live an entire lifetime and then die? And then just, you know, next week he's fine. Or O'Brien serve a 20 year sentence and murder his cellmate. And then, no, next week I'm fine. So it's like, this isn't just a, this episode thing that that, that's just in all of those times. There was one episode where they dealt with the fallout of it afterwards. And that was after the best of both worlds with the episode of family. Other than that, it was reset at the end of the episode and move on.

[1:32:34] Also product of the time, Jeff, also a product of this is a 42 minute story. Yeah, that's it. You got to move it forward. Like I can, I can totally accept that as well. Yeah, they were, it was almost criminal what they missed out on by not following up. And this is a one-time guy who shows up and does the thing. And, um, and I think if you look at the mechanics of this episode, it was an opportunity to talk about, um, guilt and trauma and to give us some backstory on the Earthman. War that's going to set up stuff for delen down the road that i think is really important which we would only know being on our second watch so yeah watching this for the second time this is an entirely different episode i stand by everything i said the first time except for this stuff with franklin i was i was way over the top with franklin the first time but on its own without knowing the breadth of the binbari conflict that we know now having gone through everything not knowing the stuff with delen not knowing where things end up it was not a good episode um the first time around the first time around yes second time around it's great there's some really cool connections to things i loved michael york's acting i love i i thought he did he did great with this one did fantastic i don't know what the hell was wrong with me the first time around well because the first time around the whole thing i i think both of us were wrapped up in the this isn't a good concept like this or not good execution of a concept yeah and honestly Like, okay, so on our Patreon, I was doing, and will do continue here soon.

[1:34:03] Uh, reactions to the show that JMS did directly after Babylon five called Jeremiah. Yeah. It stars Luke Perry. That alone is a reason to watch it. Also has Malcolm Jamal Warner and a lead. It's fantastic show. Episode number two is called man of iron woman under glass. And it's the exact same episode.

[1:34:23] Um, it's a kid though. Like it's a younger kid who's carrying this trauma. He watched his parents get murdered and he ended up not being King Arthur, but being the superhero from a comic book that he'd been reading. He loved this comic. And so he became that person. Okay. Superheroes put themselves into situations that are very, in fact, I said that during the episode, I want the spinoff of the superhero and down below like King Arthur going down and saying, Hey, that dude stole your picture and picture frame. I'm going to get him. Let's go. Yeah. That's what this kid was doing in the episode. The way that it played out in Jeremiah was this kid was just this guy. He wore the costume. He went and did this stuff. When you call them out on it, he was like, oh, yeah, no, no, no. You just don't understand because, you know, there's this and you don't know the whole picture. He was 100% this superhero guy. And as you learned more, there's more of a one-to-one connection of like, oh, this happened, so he's seen it this way. And it wasn't a, I'm going to retell the story of the conflict with the Minbari through the story of Arthur. It was, this guy is a hero, and this guy would stop the bad things I experienced from happening, and I'm going to do that. Which to me made a lot more sense. Not like, I have to ration, I'm going to fix it. I think where it also was better, spoiler alert, if you're going to watch this, skip ahead a little bit, and Jeremiah the kid died. He was the hero. and he saved the day.

[1:35:52] But he died because of it because he's turns out he's not actually a superhero and it made more sense it was more real it was more what happened now i get that's not the story he's trying to tell him that's a whole different thing right in jeremiah they're trying to tell the story of the the impact of the big death and all the this new world that they've been living in for for a couple years but it's a different thing but it was just it was executed so much more effectively than it was here even with michael york carrying this like a champ there are times it felt cartoony, At times it felt kind of a little too far to the side of reality. And where I think it's really unfortunate and there's a missed opportunity is the idea of dissociation to the point of creating a different persona is a very real thing that happens somewhat frequently. I do have experience with handling psychotic breaks and people being in the middle of psychosis. And this is what it looks like up until the point where he's like, hey, I'm better. But that whole thing of like, as they do emerge from the thing, they're frozen. They're not capable of existing in the world that does so much damage. Holding onto that guilt to take it back to the message, holding onto that guilt and not letting it go, creating that entire persona around the real pain does so much damage.

[1:37:15] Damage to your brain. Like physically, they say that the, uh, the neurons that fire together wire together, like it literally reshapes your brain. And so as you go through the process, cause it's supposed to be a process that takes a good chunk of time of emerging from it with like a number of professionals and stuff like that. Not just Dr. Franklin telling you the story very compassionately, but in a couple of minutes, breaking it down as you emerge, It is very common that like, hey, this person, they're going to be down for 72 hours. We might not hear from them for two weeks. It's not uncommon at all. So I think they hit some things very appropriately. Yeah. And some things were just too, too far. Like the vignettes they showed in the black and white. What a great idea. The concept was cool. It didn't. Didn't work. It didn't work.

[1:38:05] Yeah. That came up. And maybe that's what I'm feeling. Because, again, the whole, like, he's going through, he's holding his hands out like he has the sword in it. But in the dream, he doesn't have the sword. Like, I could see that reversed. In the dream, he has the sword in his hand. So in reality, he's actually staying there with his hands up, but nothing's in his freaking hand. Yeah, because he's carrying his gift. That would make sense to me. Flip-flopping, it just doesn't make sense to me and all that. So I do want to say this, okay, to reiterate one more time. I'm not a mental health professional. This is not something I've ever had to deal with. I'm just responding based on stuff that I know how to respond. If I've said anything incorrect or out of line or I have offended anybody out there based on my own ignorance, I own that and I apologize for it because I really am not meaning to to offend anyone. It's just my response that I have based on my own personal limited information and and.

[1:39:01] Uh, the, the, then that, that whole vignette thing where he gets stabbed, like if that's supposed to be what's happening in his mind, I, I don't get it, but the metaphor is great. Yeah. But the whole, and it's totality, that thing, it just, it just didn't hit. You know, I think that we love very much is when we talk about the message and then JMS comes around and he's like, well, actually, and we get that in this one. Does he? It's not so direct. No, there's not so much like a direct message in this one. I feel like, I feel like this is more of a, uh, we talk about a hope that things can be better in the future. We can be better humans to one another. This isn't like necessarily a how around it. It's like, Hey, you saw some of this. Now do that also says for all our generosities and our accomplishments for all of our statutes to decency and optimism, a meanness of spirit and an unhealthy cynicism has crept into the cultural zeitgeist over the last 20 years, 40 years.

[1:40:01] To combat this, we must do what is right only because it is right. Arthur and Jakar embody that in this episode. They're honorable. They do not act in their own self-interest. What a great example that we should all learn from. Can I add to that? Please do, yeah. Marcus and Franklin also act in a way that is not in their own self-interest. It's not just Arthur and Jakar. but i you know i find what i've the the that whole end scene where where marcus and and franklin.

[1:40:33] Like they won't let it go they won't just let him be they're like no no we've got to we've we can do this like we've got to figure this out they were getting nothing in return i promise you he's not paying that medical bill right and ever you know what i mean like they they were getting nothing out of it just outside of their own personal investment of what it was just to be good human beings to somebody else there's your message jeff right there what it is to be good and we also see that not taking anything away from what arthur and jakar were doing in their little mission yeah and by the way let's look at what garibaldi did that was actually just wrong because he was only about his own self what was he about he was about his wallet that's it exactly that's my all that yeah because it was his wallet my mozzarella my pepperone well jeff yeah i think it's time Do you think it's time? I don't. So you talked about watching this episode being your thing. Like, oh, this will be fun. I want to. No, I don't want to do it. I'm at that moment now. I don't want to do this.

[1:41:32] Well, Jeff, here's the good news. Whatever you do is going to be 100% completely accurate, definitively correct. Because we are creating our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 Season 3 as we watch it here for the second time. and Jeff, thank God, Thank the good Lord. Thank the sisters in the Queens who traveled on a boat to pick Arthur up and take him to Avalon. Thank them all that you are the one who has to place this episode. And I'm going to make a challenge to you, Jeff. Okay.

[1:42:11] You are not allowed to take into account in your ranking where we placed this in the first time around, which was at number 22. Because we found ultimately we found this episode very offensive we did okay it was number 22 of 21 episodes by the way because we combined war without end and 21 was just left blank like that's that's it was down there you are not allowed to raise this higher than it should be just because our opinion of the episode has come up you really have to rank this episode against the other episodes based on its merit, based on their merit. Okay. So if this still is the final episode, that's just because that's where it belongs compared to the other episodes. But Jeff, you are the one who has to make a decision. And Jeff, I'm not even going to try to pick a place for this to go. We have 12 episodes on this season. I am going to, ominously, and a way to buy you a little bit more time going to read all 12 episodes for this nice little graphic that's going to pop up on the screen here later when we edit it in number 12 our bat our worst episode of the season so far and honestly the worst episode of the season still i.

[1:43:32] The worst episode I've ever seen of TV is convictions. Number 11 is exogenesis with the bugs. 10 ceremonies of light and dark. Our episode from last week. Wow. Or no, two weeks ago.

[1:43:44] Matters of honor is number nine. Day in the strife is number eight.

[1:43:48] Seven voices of authority. Six sick transit. We're, I think is actually how we're supposed to say it. Top five passing through Gethsemane for dust to dust, three messages from earth to point of no return. And one severed dreams, jeff the time has come okay sometimes it's time to just jump out of that airplane and make it happen son where does this episode land and are 100 completely accurate nobody in our chat by the way is making an actual guess outside of a few people saying number one yeah it's like that they're just being foolish now but uh where does this episode find itself truly in a ranking of the seat so it's not a top five episode let's just if anyone's like oh my gosh it's gonna be no not gonna be that um so then is it gonna be a top 10 episode right and when we look at those episodes and that that piece i mean these are episodes that i think i mean god you're right like you said conviction there's not a single episode on this list that i wouldn't want to watch again these are all pretty great i yeah like the worst episode is still pretty it's still a pretty okay episode exactly there's a lot to like in it still yeah so let's start from there right so we have convictions and at number 12 is a late delivery from avalon better than convictions it is it is honestly just based on the metaphor alone and what a late delivery from avalon was doing i agree with you convictions.

[1:45:16] Because it's an okay episode i remember we talked about how the story to it is actually completely meaningless they just needed a storytelling structure to talk about some other things and it was fine it was fine marishi was like the best part of that whole episode right so it takes us to exogenesis exogenesis is an episode a lot of people don't care for, i think we both enjoyed it both we liked it a lot the first time we watched it yeah liked it less the second time because it literally could disappear and no one would ever know right Right.

[1:45:46] Another Franklin Marcus episode, which this one has a lot of Franklin and Marcus as well. And it was good with the two of them together. So is this better than exogenesis? Well, this actually has more ties to the arc and the storyline itself. The exogenesis does. It carries on the, the, the Franklin and Marcus piece. So yeah, this is better than exogenesis. Ceremonies of light and dark. This was a very Delenn centric episode. Yeah. one of her best. You think so? I think so. I think we talked about that a little bit. Okay. I think. Okay. Or I at least thought about it a little bit. Because I really, really liked her in Severed Dreams, right? Just, I mean, we saw the three versions of her and it was fantastic. And then in Ceremonies of Light and Dark, we got to see her just like kind of all come together. And in a way, it's, what did I say about her life? She blew a lot of hot wisdom. She was a bag of hot wisdom in that episode. Right. So is this better than Ceremonies of Light and Dark? On balance, Ceremonies of Light and Dark, wasn't it a phenomenal episode? No, I don't think it was. They got the new uniforms and stuff. It was okay, but it wasn't great. It was a good – palate cleanser is not the right word, but it was a – we had this big high, and here's what happened next. Yeah. Well, it was the reset, right? It's the pivot point. Yeah. It's the halfway mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[1:47:13] It's where it's, it's okay. So where do we go from here? Yeah. You know, interesting that we went here next in, in JMS is, um, uh, you know, he, that next to last episode is like the big wham episode of the season. And then his final episode of the season usually is the sort of the day, new mob, the sending us off. Right. It's ceremonies of light and light and dark. Was that for that severed dreams trilogy? Yeah, it really was, you know, and then we got sick transit veer and then here's this one as we get back to our episodic weekly stuff piece of it you know i'm going to say that a late delivery from avalon is not better than ceremonies of light and dark okay not by a long shot okay, but uh yeah i'm going to make it the number 11 episode on the season interesting can i um can i tell you where i would have put it sure you're not going to believe me i would have actually ranked it higher than you how much higher by a couple of places really this to me was better than Ceremonies of Light and Dark. Okay. This episode had more to say and did more stuff than Matters of Honor. And I'm looking at this one either above or below a day in the strife. And I would have to go back and revisit the day in the strife. It's actually really. Yeah. Yeah. And I like matters of honor. I, I like ceremonies of light and dark. I, I'm not saying I, I, I'm not saying that they, but I think this episode had more to do. I think it had more to say. I don't think it goes above voices of authority.

[1:48:39] Like to, to meet the line of this season between great, like there's, there's this line of, of, uh from dust between dust to dust and passing groups through gas me dust to dust and above are phenomenal episodes then there's this other line right between voices of authority and day in the strife that go from the really good episodes to that was a good hour of tv yeah this one to me is below that line above or below day in the strife i'm not entirely sure i'd have to i'd have to revisit day in the strife to see that but that's that's just so you just so y'all know it's about where i would place it wow but i'm not doing this when you are jeff so this is our new number 11 so if you guys don't like that placement right jeff that's just the way it is just the way it is people uh uh uh people are falling over shocked in the chat i bet i'll bet.

[1:49:34] Is this okay? Pinch me. What is this? Right, right. Wow. Okay, yeah. Well, there you go. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it. I tell you what. I'm glad to have gone through this experience. I'm also happy to not, to be on the backside of it. Yeah. I'm happy to be on the backside of it is what I'm going to say. Yes. Happy to be on the backside of it. Agreed. But that's going to do it for late delivery from Avalon. Jeff, new episode up next week titled Ship O' Tears. Ship O' Tears. I wish I could do an Irish accent because that would just be really funny to me right now. Jeff, do you remember what your prediction was the first time? Not what actually happened, but what you thought this episode might be about the first time we went through it? I do. I really keyed in on the Babylon Treaty that Ivanova was handing out to everybody, right? And so I thought I was going to pick that up.

[1:50:20] Refugees are going to start pouring in from various worlds. And specifically, a Drazi ship was going to come and have a group of down-and-out citizens. Some poets, women, children. Um, and the captain is going to start negotiating for peace with the non-aligned worlds because like they're fully, it's so bad. We're having to flee with all these people. Can we lean on this treaty? Um, For some peace. Do you remember what you predicted? I do. So I said that this was going to be a ship, the ship of tears. This would be like a ship, like a Mimbari, a Mimbari warship. That's kind of like the widow maker. Like this is the ship. That's just going to blast everybody and take them out of the sky. Like it's, it's going to come back into the, into the frame. I also said the episode wasn't going to be good. Okay. I did not have a lot of hope for this episode.

[1:51:10] I like your idea of it. the ship of tears because it it's reminiscent of the the one of if well i'm gonna say it's a top three darkest stain on the history of our own great country here jeff um the trail of tears.

[1:51:26] Yeah oh my god it's it's in your your idea of what that could potentially be in the the going back and forth i like the idea of what that could have been for where that goes jeff before we move on because i know we're wrapping this up here but there was an excellent question i thought in the chat that i want to address real quick before we go back okay and again this is this is more dealing with our first watch and some things we so and i think this is actually even in the recap video i said i i rated this on star furies star furies back in the day for those of you who didn't watch our first watch was uh we had it we had a delta rating which was how strong the messages were and then we had star star furries which was how much we enjoyed the episode and how babylon five it was and i gave this like a half of a star fury for, And I think my exact words were, first of all, I didn't like it at all, but also it just didn't do anything in a Babylon five way.

[1:52:24] And they asked me how many Star Furies I would give it now. Uh-huh. Which I think is great. And I'm going to actually ask you to say, I want you to give your own Star Furies. Jeff. But so to look at it now and go, how much did we enjoy this episode? Pure enjoyment of this episode, Jeff, I'm going to say this on a scale of zero to five.

[1:52:46] Star furies because we were on a scale of five star furies right yeah to me this one would be like a three okay just on a pure enjoyment level i more than half still not the best episode i i listen michael york had a big come up for me in this i still don't love it yeah um you know it's a three i'm not this is not a yes late delivery from avalon's on let me not in the least it's like oh okay i could maybe watch this episode maybe as far as how babylon five it was though And that's where I really want, like Jeff, I think there's an inherent thing that says how Babylon five is something is really saying how Joe Michael Straczynski is this episode. Okay. Yeah. We've gotten to know JMS, uh, uh, from a distance over the last couple of years through his autobiography, through interactions, uh, that we've seen him have with the public, a couple that we've had happened to have. Um, but mostly through his work. Right. And, and JMS is a guy who I think you can know through his work. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If you want to know who JMS is as a person, look at his work. And so I think asking just how Babylon five or how JMS is this episode, Jeff, this is a very JMS episode. If I, I think it's, I think this is, this is him. Maybe it was executed better when he did Jeremiah. There's a reason he redid the episode. Absolutely. You know what I mean? I think this is an episode that he brought that, that again, he, he's very proud of this episode. There's a lot that I think he poured into this episode that I chat on all over the place in the first one.

[1:54:15] I wasn't the only one, folks. You did it too. I just was intense about it. But regardless, I think this is a very JMS episode. And so I think putting those two things together, this is probably about a four-star fury. Like, I'm going to meet it in the middle. Five for How Babylon 5, three for how much I enjoyed it. I'm going to meet it in the middle at four-star fury, I think is where I would come back to it. And that's my reasoning for that. Yeah. Maybe three and a half.

[1:54:41] How about you? If you were doing Star Furious on this based on it now, where would you go? You said you thought it was worth no Star Furious. Yeah, I did. The first time. Where would you place it? I would not give it as many as you did for sure. I just wanted to note, Jeff ranks it lower than Brent both times. Yeah. This is consistent, right? I'm not the one over here pandering to everybody and being like, oh, you want me to go? Wow. Wow. You're not pandering. That's not happening. They're never going to be mad at you just because you're the golden boy, right? Apparently. So I think that like how Joe Michael Straczynski is, it's quite, but it's also not what he wanted it to be. He's fond of it, but then he went and did it better. The fact that he wanted to do it better backs up like this just didn't work. This to me would be two and a half probably, Starfleet. Yeah, I mean, but you're basing that based on your sheer enjoyment of the episode, not necessarily how bad on five it is. Is it for you both? Yeah. And I'm saying that's like the way he did it in Jeremiah would have been more Babylon 5 because he killed a kid. But like he gave someone a happy ending. And I mean, that's it happens. It absolutely happens. But that's not the Babylon 5 way of doing things. They get realistic endings.

[1:56:00] And all of a sudden being fine and going off and having a position of authority and influence on Narn, doing the resistance, like, that's not, that's a Star Trek ending. All right. Yeah. All right. We'll let it be. Jeff, that is going to put a bow on late delivery from Avalon, and it is time for us to move off. Ship of Tears up next week. Predictions, the bank. They're in, so if you want to check them out, make sure you are. we're going to be in the same place you are right now, listening or watching or whatever. So subscribe while you're there. Go ahead and like us, comment, subscribe, do all those things. We had an incredible time with, I was going to say our council chambers chat, but today it was our discord and Patreon chat. So check out our Patreon page, patreon.com slash bad nerds. There's a link in the show notes. There's a ton of other content out there. I've been talking about the Jeremiah stuff. That's available on the Patreon. If you want to just support the show in a way and you don't want to lay out any cash, That's super cool. Just share the show, share the show with somebody who might, uh, love things like Arthurian legends or, um, Bester showing up from time to time.

[1:57:12] It's going to happen right here next week. Thanks so much, uh, for joining us. We will see you next time. I'm going to, Hey Jeff. Yeah. What's up? Hey, so, uh, I got a little surprise for you. Okay. I didn't tell you about this. All right. I didn't tell you about this. Um, Prior to recording this episode some time ago, knowing this episode is coming back around, I reached out to JMS and asked him just some thoughts on kind of where we were and what happened and actually got a note back from JMS. You did? I did. I did. Should I read it? Yes, you absolutely should read it. What did he say? Okay. I'm going to read it. Here we go. Okay. Dear Jeff, and especially Brent, fuck you, Jeff. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.