A Late Delivery From Avalon

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon. Five for the first time.

Jeff: My God, sir Brent, do you have a problem with this episode? Why are you speaking so

Brent: Listen, Jeff, this is going to be a shortish episode. I'm just trying to pad for some time, man pad for some time because Wowser, we're gonna get into all of that. Uh, Jeff and I, folks out there, Jeff and I are watching Babylon five for the very first time. We are two veterans Star Trek podcasters. We each have our own individual Star Trek podcast.

We came together. To watch this show for the first time and apply that Star Trek, uh, analytical lens that we have where we overanalyze everything. We're gonna apply that here to Babylon five. Um, and also we're gonna try to see how much we like this series. How is Babylon five doing it in its own way?

Jeff: While this is a Babylon five podcast, not a Star Trek one, we are Star Trek podcasters like Brent just said. So those references are sure to make their way in. But to keep us honest, we play the rule of three. It's a game where we each get only up to three episodes, a piece per episode. That's it. Three. No substitutions.

Exchanges are refund. Hey Brent,

Brent: Hey.

Jeff: we have a five star review. Oh yes. This is from Apple Podcasts and Alexander Boham left this.

Brent: What's up, Alex?

Jeff: Alexander says, my favorite Star Trek veteran, non Star Trek podcast. Combining,

Brent: read that again. What?

Jeff: This is about as niche as you can get. My favorite Star Trek veteran non Trekk Star Trek podcast.

Brent: Okay. Got it. Yeah. Cool.

Jeff: Woo says, combining Babylon five in Star Trek is something of a taboo In many fan groups, when it's done, the topic is usually who stole from who and not much else. Babylon five for the first time, shows how much we've been missing out on. I'm happy to say there are many Babylon five podcasts out there, old fans returning to Babylon.

Five newcomers being introduced to the show experts talking about the behind the scenes. There's even a group roleplaying, the old Babylon five RPGs. So with all these options, what makes Babylon five for the first time unique? The experience and unbridled optimism of two Star Trek podcasting veterans. As much fun as it is to see people experience this extraordinary show for the first time, there's always a bit of worry. Will they stick with the show or end it halfway through? Will they pick up on the small details the show puts down? Will they have the patience to let the show develop its own identity or will they draw their own conclusions too early on?

And this is where the Star Trek Veteran Sea shines through right from the get-go. Brent and Jeff host the show with the confidence of experienced podcasters. Here are two guys who aren't afraid to be critical of the show they're watching, but they're also fans of a huge franchise that has had tons of ups, tons of downs, good episodes and bad ones, and so they know where to find things to.

What to criticize and where to be patient with a show that has yet to find its footing with the, with most of the shows still ahead in hours upon hours of discussion to come. This is a very promising start. There's nothing more to say but live long and prosper cuz he buzzed himself, which is super cool.

Brent: I love it when people buzz themselves . It makes me giggle every time.

Jeff: It's the best.

Brent: uh, okay. First of all, Babylon. Five RPGs.

Jeff: Yeah, I did

Brent: didn't know about that. Is that a thing? I mean, obviously it is, but

Jeff: I feel like a, like a, maybe a Patreon special, like maybe we get a little game going on Discord or

Brent: Yeah. That is, that is dope.

Jeff: yeah, I'm in.

Brent: we, Hey. Um. We'll have to ask the Discord folks over on page. Hey, by the way, if you guys want to come chat with, with Jeff and I, like on a Messenger platform, we have a Discord server that you guys can get access to over at our Patreon page, patreon.com/babylon. Five first, uh, the number five, the word first.

Jeff: That's

Brent: Yeah. Um.

You, you just gave it like the sexy That's right. You went That's right.

Jeff: That's right. Yeah.

Brent: but, uh, Bab, but we'll have to ask cuz I don't wanna spoil anything. Like if there, if there's, it may be one of those things we have to wait until we get through with

Jeff: Oh, yeah. Or, or maybe they base the whole roll, the whole, uh, rpg. On this episode we're gonna talk about today,

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: Hey, on that note, Brent, we have another five star review. Oh yes. This one's also on Apple Podcasts, and Jason Arron says, I was a big fan of Babylon five back in the day, but haven't watched it in years.

Then I discovered this podcast, two Trekkies watching Babylon five for the first time. Babylon five is a series that builds its stories, so you can't rewatch it without seeing parts of the story constantly building. So it's refreshing hearing two people watch it for the first time, so they have no knowledge of what's to come.

Their discussions are fascinating, fair and entertaining. Whether you've never watched Babylon five before or it's your 47th time watching it, this podcast is the perfect companion.

Brent: Uh, that deserves a buzz. It's a hundred percent a Star Trek reference

Jeff: It's a good one too. It's a beat me up. A Star Trek podcast reference is what it is.

Brent: It is. That was, that was fun. That was fun. Uh, yeah. Thank you for that. That's, uh, that's what we try to be, what cracks me up is when people don't get it, you know? And hey, shout out to everybody who's listening, whether you get it or not. Uh, but there's just like, there's just some people who don't get that like, we're going through for the first time.

We don't see all the connections.

Jeff: Brett, how could you not know that this thing happens in 72 more

Brent: how could you not understand that? That's foreshadow. You don't appreciate subtlety?

Jeff: Okay,

Brent: Dude, I'm still trying to figure out the layout of the freaking station, and I'm a season and a half in like

Jeff: I just learned brown sector is where the sewage goes. Like, come on, gimme a break.

Brent: right? Oh. You, you, you see YouTube. This is the part where I don't, I don't know how many of these Jeff does and have given

Jeff: No. Right. I usually do two. I usually do

Brent: You do you? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you do too, but

Jeff: I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, cuz I even told YouTube earlier how I cue these up. I think I'm gonna do three next week cuz we got a, a couple little ones.

Brent: Okay. Sounds good.

Jeff: I think, but all, maybe I should start saying that I should say like, Hey, here's two that.

Brent: You could tell me before the show starts, like, I've got two today, you know, or three or whatever. That probably wouldn't, wouldn't be bad.

Jeff: soft pitch a little for you.

Brent: I promise you, I will forget this conversation by next week. Just, just tell me you, know, uh, anyway. Hey, Jeff, you know what?

Jeff: what's

Brent: Well, along with our rule of three, which by the way, the ones that, that got buzzed earlier, that's on them.

That's not on us. Uh, but along with our rule of three, there's another game that we like to play at the end of the show. I had so much fun with this game last week where we got to, we got to guess what the next week's episode is gonna be based on title alone. We don't watch ahead. We don't see, you know, we, we, we tru.

There's the title, here's what you think it's gonna be. Sometimes it's spot on, sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with the episode. Jeff, do you remember what you said last week? And how close were you?

Jeff: We were both pretty close in what we guessed, and so let's just say off the bat like, oh my gosh, king Arthur came back. We got that where I went on a different route than you is I thought we were gonna learn that Arthur was actually a vlan. Back in the day, like, you know, one of those lon interferences in our faith stuff or whatever.

Uh, I was not right about that at all, but totally nailed the King Arthur part. What did you, uh, what did you

Brent: Yeah. I, I was very similar. I said, I said King Arthur. I said Excalibur. So I got, I got that. Uh, but I said that they would arrive, that he would arrive from the volans. Aah, jack the ripper from comes the inquisitor.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Yep. Uh, that it would be like that. But I also said this was gonna be a pallet cleanser, so this was gonna be a. Right. This was gonna be a good, like reset us after a bunch of heavy episodes and the last two episodes, which are like, that's what you're using to follow up with. Um, and, and, and I said that in doing so, like King Arthur would somehow be the guy who is the catalyst for the rest of, like the universe accepting Babylon five as its own state.

It wasn't King Arthur that had anything to do with that. But I will go ahead and say, based on the treaties and. People are acknowledging Babylon five as its own state. I'm satisfied with that requirement being filled. So everything else was wrong.

Jeff: Yeah, cuz you thought like Avalon was a lon planet and it was actually a really cool idea that you

Brent: well, the, they said it in the show. They even re, they even referenced Jack the Ripper with clumsy inquisitor, like, Hey, it could be that. Turns out it wasn't, but

Jeff: Yeah. Mar Marcus was literally, you know what Marcus says, I think Brent Allen guessed this is what was gonna happen this episode, so I'm gonna bring it up. Just because maybe

Brent: I am telling you, you and I 30 years later are impacting the writing of this show from 30 years into the past time travel time loops. Time is cyclical and spherical, not linear. Um,

Jeff: I'm tempted, but I'm not going

Brent: Mm-hmm. Um, anyway, Jeff. For the folks at home who maybe didn't actually watch this episode before lead listening to this episode, and honestly I couldn't blame them.

Uh, maybe it's been a while since they've seen it. Anything like that. Uh, today, fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, the duty falls to remind us what this episode is. While you do that, I'm gonna check out for a while cause Oh, have fun, man.

Jeff: Hey, thanks. Well, hey, Babylon. Five opened for business like two weeks ago, but nobody seems to care. Sheridan and Ivanova are trying to figure out how to get some more cash flowing through the station and to stop relying on the minbar for protection. They pull the non-aligned worlds that will agree to meet.

Into the council chambers and propose a new Babylon treaty. It declares Babylon five as neutral territory and calls on the league worlds to chip in on station defense. The treaty isn't celebrated, but it does go over better than a wet fart in church. Enough sign to ensure protection for the station. The one ship that did pay the dock dropped a dude off.

That caused quite a commotion when he came on. Security stopped him after a weapons alert. He said that he had returned because he is needed at this place and at this time. And as much as I was hoping that he was gonna be a techno age, I was almost equally um, surprised when he said he was King. Arthur Marcus, though, is eating this up.

He's been preparing for this moment his entire. Dr. Franklin insists on checking him out. He's not gonna believe that he is really King Arthur and is gonna science his way to the truth because Dr. Franklin is smarter than anyone else and is a master silencer. In the meantime, Arthur is down below helping old ladies and fighting crime.

You know, who else is fighting crime down. Kar, they hook up and they kick some serious lurker butt. Kar is living his best life. They go to the bar, they get wasted and sitting at a tiny dark table. Arthur Knights Jaar and because of his eyes, christens him, the Red Knight. Arthur tells the moving story of his defeat. He and Mordrid met to negotiate a. They each brought 14 nights with them, with their armies waiting in the distance prepared for shenanigans. The order was if anyone draws their sword, charge in and bring hell with you. Well, as luck would have it, a snake an adder joins the negotiation.

One of Morden's, of Morden's Knight, draws their sword to kill the snake, bringing Arthur's, bringing Arthur's army in, and it was pandemonium and absolute slaughter. Remember how Franklin had to science his way to moral superiority? Well, he learned that this Arthur is actually a dude named David McIntyre, a decorated soldier from the earth, minbar war, and not just a decorated soldier, but the gunners mate who executed the order to fire on du Kat's Minbar ship.

Yeah, he was on the Prometheus when it made first contact with the Menari. They have a tradition of approaching ships with their gun ports open. As a show of respect, Prometheus took that as a threat, had McIntyre fire, and launched a one-sided war that almost eliminated humanity from the Galaxy. Franklin, all but physically attacks him with this information until he goes into a catatonic. Marcus is able to decode the fantasy he was living in. McIntyre was Arthur Franklin, for some reason, is be Avir. Excalibur represents his pain that needs to be returned to the Lady of the Lake. But who is that?

Who is the lady? Oh, I see. It's Dalen. She comes in, takes Excalibur in a quiet and honestly moving scene, and McIntyre is back on his feet, ready to join the fight. Seriously, like that fast. He's headed to the Narn home world to help with the resistance. Marcus and Franklin see him off and once he's on his way, Marcus speculates that Kosh must be Merlin, who aged backwards.

So Babylon five may have been the inspiration for the round table. Sheridan, his Archer Ava's gne and well, you know, who would be Mor Ghana? Um, actually no, I, uh, I don't know who. Can you clue me in a little bit here? Hey, you know who else doesn't know Gar Baldy, and that's because he's busy breaking and entering the post office to get a package sent to him from Earth.

Operating costs have gone up, so it's gonna cost him a hundred credits to get his anchovies and pepperoni. In the end, he threatens to shut down the post office and evict the postal worker so he can get his postage and his money. Classy Garibaldi. Real classy. Brent, what did you think of this episode of Babylon?

Five?

Brent: Not a lot. Um, We, we finally learned what started the Earthman Barr War.

Jeff: That was pretty

Brent: It was a mistake.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: It was a mistake, and you maybe could have something to talk with about that. Uh, Jeff, we did this episode already this season.

Jeff: Oh yeah,

Brent: This was passing through Ghost Enemy. You're talking about guilt and what that does to a person's psyche, and I understand this is different.

What do you do with the guy who was the actual dude who pushed the bomb out of the hatch that dropped on Hiroshima? Naga. That's the dude we're talking about in this

Jeff: right. The pilot of an Ola gay flying out of the shockwave on that August.

Brent: Yep. That's the, uh, that's the guy we're talking about. So I, I just, people out there are gonna gimme such flack for this episode. I, I have no notes. I literally have no notes. There's nothing about this episode. That stood out to me that I want to talk about, that I have any desire to talk about. I don't know why we're doing this episode now.

People out there are gonna be like, oh, you know you, you're talking about this person here and this guilt and this look. Mm-hmm. I'm past this part. I'm past this part. Maybe on a rewatch. This is a cool deep dive. This is a cool whatever. I think there's some cool, probably Star Trek messages. I'm glad you got Deltas this week.

I am so ready to move on to the next episode and that. Pretty much my complete thoughts. People are gonna rip into me in the comments. I don't even care cause this was objectively, uh, an awful episode. How about you, Jeff?

Jeff: You know, I think really this did one thing like this accomplished one thing for us in like the scope of Babylon five. The big mystery from episode one was, you know, what happened? Why did the Earthman Bar War end? And how did it start? And what did this happen? I feel like we have a pretty, I don't wanna say complete picture, but I can tell the story now, you know, of how we started the war with them, why they freaked out, and how it ended.

So, so that happened. Um, I think every sci-fi show does this episode, though, like every sci-fi show has to have its fantasy episode. And here's the thing. They're never that good.

Brent: Mm

Jeff: And this one is no, no different. Michael York was, uh, he tried, actually, you know what? I have a little bit of trivia for you.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: So, um, Michael Myers, right?

The, the, not the killer , but the actor, the comedian, he saw this episode. This is the. That convinced him to cast Michael York into the role of Basl Expedition, basil Exposition in the Austin Power Movies.

Brent: Is it really

Jeff: No, actually made that up just so I had something interesting.

Brent: Oh, okay. Listen, all you guys out there who just wrote this comment, Brent doesn't understand subtlety. There's 22 episodes in a season and you gotta fill 'em all up. I want you to go in, click those little dots next to it and delete that comment. I understand Jeff understands there are 22 episodes in a season.

That's a long season. We also understand subtlety if this episode is doing any kind of foreshadowing for something else later on. Awesome. I ain't picking it up yet, okay. But this episode is just like, it's just, it just. Okay. We already did this episode. I'm so like, oh my

Jeff: I think so. Okay.

Brent: episode.

Jeff: Let's, let's just rip through it. Cause I have a handful of little points on the Arthur stuff here, and I think that one was, and you mentioned it, that like they brought up Sebastian and the comes the inquisitor thing, right? Like, oh my gosh, you know, the Orleans could have picked him up.

How does Marcus know about that? That was a season two thing. I thought that was interesting that Marcus was the one to bring that.

Brent: Talk over lunch or dinner. I don't know.

Jeff: I did love, but here, here's what makes the whole thing.

Brent: Pillow. Talk between him and Ivanova.

Jeff: Yeah, it could be. Could be that.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I think the two things though that were cool, one was Dalen coming in to take Excalibur.

It was silent. It was wordless. There was very little music to it. If I remember even just like a little bit of like mood music. And it was still so powerful. Just her eyes, you know? It was just one of those things of like, we're cool, man. We're cool.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: But the shining moment of this episode, that was epic and I will watch, I will watch this part of the episode again, was Kar leaping over the railing, going down into that pit and just being like, let's do this.

Brent: Dude look okay for a guy who is not actually King Arthur and presumably not actually sword trained, although he might, that dude had some skills like he could have, he could legitimately fight and do his thing. And Jeff, here's the thing. You, you just mentioned it. They said they called it out. Could be another guy from Bolon that got taken off of Earth, which is what I said last week.

Right. They could have said that this would've been so much better of an episode if that guy actually was the dude, king Arthur

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: and maybe a little less on the Swayne and Lance Alot and Gallahan and all that sort of stuff and just be like the King Arthur. Guy who's come back. Maybe there's all that, like this would've been so much better if it was that episode, not what we got.

Not

Jeff: it even started out down. Right Where he's like, when Marcus is like, oh, well let's go, let's, I'll go grab Gala had and Lances slot. And he is like, whoa, they're dead. No. And I'm thinking to myself, this is gonna be great. Like, he knows what's up. You know, he's totally lucid. He understands the time and place he's in.

This is gonna be, oh, okay. So we're gonna rehash the, uh, the long dark stuff with PTs D for soldiers, which is an important story to tell. It's a story they've told.

Brent: We've already done it.

Jeff: we've. And also all it showed me again. Yeah, yeah.

Brent: Nevermind.

Jeff: You

Brent: I don't know if, yeah, I don't know if you wanna edit that part out or not. Either , while you're editing. Nevermind.

Jeff: It's all right. It's all right.

Brent: Sorry.

Jeff: We get the episodes where I'm just like, oh man, this is gonna be,

Brent: I was, it was, it was one of those like, I was gonna say something and then I was like, no, actually I don't need to say that at all. That's all. That's all it was. Sorry guys. I'm not telling you what it was.

Jeff: Oh, I had a,

Brent: himself. Sorry I com. I completely cut you off. I'm

Jeff: You did. I had a whole, I had a whole great

Brent: And I probably ruined your whole train of thought.

I'm so sorry.

Jeff: but what it really did like for me, what it really did was showed me that Franklin,

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: oh my God, not only is he all the things we've talked about so many times, but he's a bully. Now you can sit there, you can make the point. And I know that there are people listening and watching right now who are gonna say this of like, but he got him to understand who he was.

Like he fixed him and it's better you don't fix someone by like verbally beating them up. That was even for 1996, that was wildly unprofessional of Dr. Franklin and just, just the witch hunt that he was after of just like, We're gonna get this guy, we're gonna tell him who he really is. It's like, God, dude, lay off.

Just about six months ago, six months ago, somebody made a comment about me and, and, and told defense of them. They actually sent an email later apologizing for this, but they were like, Jeff just hates Franklin, and he refuses to look at him in an unbiased way. I'm looking at him in an unbiased way, and he's a terrible doctor and he's a terrible person, and this episode just proved it. Who he is. I don't know his arc. I don't know how he develops. Maybe he ends up being Mother Teresa. Well, I guess that's not the best thing, depending on how you look at Mother Teresa, Gandhi, whoever, you know, whoever we hold up as being a great person. Maybe he ends up being that person at the end of the series.

We're not the end of the series yet. Like right now, Dr. Franklin is the worst.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: All right. Is that enough about Arthur?

Brent: I had, I, the whole thing with Kar could have really been something, and as soon, as soon as they made it about the, the bomber dude. Instead of let it actually being King Arthur from long ago saved by the Volans, who has been brought back for just a time as this, if it would've been about that, all that jaar stuff would've been dope when they made it about the bomber, it negated everything.

Everything gone. I'm done.

Jeff: He's left holding the bag, but you're, I'm the, I'm your Red Knight and you're just going to, I mean, he's gonna go help the nans. That's cool. But you're still just your citizen Jaar still.

Brent: yep. You played along with the dude who has had a psychotic break, and I, in no way, shape or form mean any kind of disrespect to anyone who's ever dealt with any kind of mental health issues. None whatsoever.

Jeff: Question, are you satisfied with the Babylon Treaty and how that went down?

Brent: I, I'm fine. I, I, I didn't I That c should have been a good episode. Trying to get the rest of the, the universe to acknowledge Babylon five to say, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna do a brand new treaty. And we're gotta get people to sign on because to, to emphasize like this is going to be the last best hope for peace.

This is still gonna be neutral territory. This is still gonna be a place where you send your ambassadors. In fact, not only is that we're gonna do it even better than we did before, we're going more hardcore at it. And Earth ain't here to stop us and tell us what to do. Oh, and by the way, we also need you guys to send us some money because we're severely lacking.

Um, , you know, that would've been a good episode. That would've been very app. Random dude dealing with guilt like it's a topic.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Already done it. How about you? Were you okay with it?

Jeff: Yeah, I think so. I think to your point, I wish it was more about. Like they just threw out Babylon. Five will be neutral territory where we can do these things. But then all the emphasis was on and we need your ships to patrol. Like we really need like business and we need people helping out. It was, it was more of a like, hands out, we need something as opposed to, we're amazing and we have something to offer you.

And I think that if it was given more than the, what, four and a half minutes that it got in this episode, they could have gone.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: It was a neat idea. I liked the production of it. Like it was cool to see the council chambers again. I liked that they had the treaties in those folders, you know, all official, and Ivan was, was passing 'em through, like the whole scene was good.

I did notice it looked like Sheridan Ivanova had like ss or something on over the, like some sort of aversion of uh, like for like a dress uniform sort of thing.

Brent: didn't even notice that at all. I, I'll look

Jeff: me miss the earth. It just made me miss the earth for dress uniforms.

Brent: were such good uniform.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: Do you ever wonder if like Sheridan like just stands in his quarters and just looks into his closet and being like, man, I look so good in that.

Jeff: he totally like silenced the lambs buffalo Bills it. He's just like,

Brent: Well, you know, he's also sitting there like, dude, I just bought this new dress uniform before I got here.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: I just

Jeff: I got new patches sewn on. This stuff isn't cheap, but he puts it on in the mirror. He, he plays little music and he goes, would, would, would you salute me? I'd salute me Sorry, that was a really bad, so that's lamps, . If you get it, you get it.

Brent: Oh,

Jeff: I can't

Brent: hey Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Jeff. Um, let's actually talk substance here. Was there any kind of good Star Trek messages you pulled out of this? You got Deltas this week.

Jeff: we do, let's hit one, one other plot point

Brent: No, I'm done. Nope. Cutting you

Jeff: we gotta talk about the Garibaldi

Brent: I don't care. Cutting you off. Okay, fine. Let's talk about Gu Baldi. I like Gu Baldi. He's cool.

Jeff: I, I thought he was way outta line, way outta line in this one.

Brent: Um, okay. In prior Babylon five episodes, There has been a B plot that has been intended to be comedy. It has been intended to play for laughs and it was not funny looking at you acts of sacrifice where you tried to force ivanova to have sex against her will,

Jeff: Yes.

Brent: right? Not funny. It was meant to be hilarious.

Maybe it was really funny back in the nineties. I can't imagine that it was, it's not funny today. This one, a b plot that is being played for laugh. And was funny. Gar, Baldy. Try like, I'm not taking any of that. Not to, not to crap on your comment, I'm not taking any of it seriously because the post office guy was a cartoon.

Jeff: He was great. I loved.

Brent: Garabaldi trying to break into his deal.

Jeff: Well, to me, everything was great until he whipped out the PPG and shot the lock. But it made it fine though when the postal guy was living . He's living in the postal thing. 20 extra credits for that

Brent: Right. And when he, when he does the thing at the end where like he gives him the damaged box and he's like, ah, I'm just joking. I'm like, look, I, I, yes, in real life was Gu Baldy out of line. Sure. I'm not taking any of that seriously. Cuz it was, it was funny.

Jeff: I loved the scene when they were breaking and entering and Geba was like, dude, what? Like, what are y'all worried about? What's the big deal? He's, he's like, dude, this is the post office. We could get in real trouble. It was fun. But Brent, I think that we have reached that part of the show where we boil this all down. We see if the show has any of those star treky type messages to it, like a deep moral message. Maybe it's holding up a mirror to society, given us hope that we'll be better in the future. We're gonna do that with me rating this episode on a scale of zero to five Deltas as to how star treky it was.

And I mean, we can go through the exercise of you rating it on an scale of zero to five star series as to how much we liked it and how Babylon five it was. But I'm pretty sure we know. I'll go f

Brent: To go through that exercise.

Jeff: I think so too. It's in the notes like we wrote it. So, but I'll start with the Delta. There was a cool scene in this one where they were talking about life being fair or not being fair.

Life's so unfair, and Marcus said, I'm glad it's not fair. Right? If it were fair, all the bad things that happened to us would be what we deserved. Now I could write a huge, excellent Star Trek episode five Delta Star Trek episode on. Message alone. That premise right there, a society, right, built on this premise that, you know, of course ultimately uses it for evil.

You know, one group decides what, who does and who doesn't. It'd be one of those things and they kind of break it down, but it was literally a line that Marcus said that was a cool thinking thing. But it does take us back to a theme that we've talked about a. And that is that we can only control, like the only thing we as humans as people can control is how we react to things.

Right? You know, if thing happens, we get to choose how we react to it, and that's it. Life's not fair. But our reaction to the unfairness can be fair. And I think the Arthur and McIntyre both are trying to make right what went wrong from a misunderstanding that happened, right? An unfair. Misunderstanding dude, going after the atter and then the ar, the, uh, the army's coming down and starting the, the, the fantasy war that happened, and then McIntyre shooting the minbar ship, ultimately leading to Duco dying and the earth minbar war.

They couldn't stop the things that happened, right? Arthur couldn't have stopped the sword coming down on the snake. McIntyre couldn't have not. The, the gun, the gunnery batteries, Adam, but they could try to make up for it, or at least ask and try to make up for it and look for that forgiveness, which takes us again to the theme of forgiveness, which we are really, really hitting hard in season three.

The attack on the Menari ship wasn't MacIntyre's responsibility, but he blamed himself. And I think this is the thing too, we've seen in this se in this season specifically a couple times, he's not just blaming himself for firing on. , but he is also blaming himself for surviving the battle of the line. It was like 20,000 people were at that, and 200 survived is what we got out of this one. So in his own way, through his expression of his post-traumatic stress, he seeks out forgiveness from Dalen and he gets it. And to me, the frosting on this one is that he used his skills wherever he got those skills, as Arthur, he immediately, immediately, Used them to help people. There's that scene with the old lady who just wanted her picture of her, of her husband who died.

That's all that she wanted, and he went out of his way to make it happen. Like he naturally helped people and immediately, as soon as he was like immediately recovered like that fast from, you know, all that time of being sick, he goes off to help the NANS at great personal risk. I thought that was great.

So, With all of that said, I, I, I feel like this had some strong messages in it, and so I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give it three deltas.

Brent: Yeah. I, I, I remember watching this Thinging like, oh yeah, that's the Star Trek message. Yeah. That's there. This, I mean, I don't want to, as much as I'm crapping on this episode and I'm crapping all over this episode, I, I don't wanna take away the Star Trek messages from it cuz it's definitely there. I'm just really glad you're the one who has to do it.

Jeff: Well, and I think, and I, and I said, they're not new messages. There's no new light being shined here. It's just like, Hey, here's the thing again that we've been telling you. They're great messages. It's great stuff, but we got it and we generally got it better.

Brent: Here's a, this may go over into the Star Fury conversation a bit. Okay. What do we know at this point? Even if you are, if you are watching this as it's airing live on television, you know, these stories are all running together. This is a, this is a big story that's going from one to the next, to the next, to the next.

Like, like you understand that midway through season three, Halfway through the run of the show, which you didn't know that it was gonna be the run of the show at the time. Maybe you heard rumblings out there of like, yeah, when he, when he pitched the show to the network, he said he had a five, this is a five season show, and he's got the whole thing already planned out.

Like, you know that if you didn't know that, you figured it out. You get to this episode and you're like, you've gotta be sitting like in the spot that you and I are sitting in right now, Jeff, which is get get on with the thing. Like you had this. Awesome situation where Babylon five broke away and it was like, are, yeah, let's go.

And the last, what has it been? Jeff? Two, three episodes now in a row have been like, what are we doing? Like it's just, it's just been heavy until you got to this one. Which was just bad. I'm sorry. Him coming in and going, Hey, I'm gonna release my guilt back to the Lady of the Lake and Excalibur does that now I'm good.

Jeff: Immediately.

Brent: that works.

Jeff: Not at.

Brent: That was, it was so absurd that again, I go back to had he actually been a dude from, from the vo. And come on to, to facilitate something, to do something. Maybe, maybe the one who really needed him was Kar to come and unite him so Kar can rise up and stand up. Like maybe it's something, honestly.

How cool would it be for them just to be kind of like a new cast member, like a brother Theo? We see him four or five times a a season, which by the way, where's Brother Theo been? I need that dude back. You know what I mean? Um,

That would've been cool. That's not what we got. Um, star furries is this weird mix of how much did we enjoy the episode versus how Babylon five, how much did it do it in Babylon, five's own way. As you mentioned earlier, Jeff, this is an episode. Every Star Trek or every, not Star Trek, every sci-fi show does, they do, they do the guilty conscience.

They do the, the, this thing. Sometimes they do it more than once. You know what episode this reminded me of from Star Trek? A lot. Do you remember the episode of the little kid who lost his parents and he was trying to become like data with like no emotion that this one, I mean obviously clearly different, but uh, a person who had a comp who's having a complete break and identifying as something else other than what they are and having to rediscover themselves.

It's a beautiful story. This is not the time to tell the.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: people out there, they're, they're just acking on that keyboard. Guys, you can save it. I'm not even gonna respond to those comments this week. I'm just, I'm, maybe I will. Ma here's the deal. If you write me those kind of comments, if, if you catch me in the right mood, I might not be nice when I, when I respond.

Please understand that that's not anything personal. It's just this episode. Um, this didn't do it in a very Babylon. This was sloppy. This was poorly written. I don't know what the hell J J m S was thinking about with this episode. This one is gonna get like, just because the, the Garabaldi side made me laugh and the jaar stuff made me like, I, I, I enjoyed that part.

I'm not gonna say that this was completely devoid of enjoyment. There's just not much to really grab onto at this point. That is, that is new. That's different. So I, I'll give it a star.

Jeff: One

Brent: that might be, that might be generous. I was thinking half, but I, I, I'm I'll. No, I'm gonna do half. Half. That's where I am.

It's a half a star. Fury. That's it.

Jeff: half a star. Fury is exactly half a star. Fury more than I thought you were gonna give it.

Brent: Me too. To be honest with you, I just talked myself into half a star. Fury.

Jeff: Care of all this stuff was fun. For sure. And I also think as you were talking, it made me think of the Geometry of Shadows episode that when we watched it, we were just kinda like, dude, techno majors are awesome. And then there was just like some other stuff that was kinda like, okay, like whatever. Here we are now more than a season after that episode and it's like, oh my God, what a rich episode that told us so much.

Brent: I've heard so much about that. I need to go back and, well, I'm gonna get it on Babylon five for the second time. Like that is an episode specifically because we got so rolled in the comments over that. You don't understand foreshadowing. Okay. Maybe they're foreshadowing. Do I remember what, what people were talking about that episode?

At this point, no. When I go back and watch this for the second time, I can't, I can't, I'm looking forward to that particular episode. Uh, I, I will say this, the mbar after this episode to me, now that we know why the Earthman Barr War started and exactly how it happened, the Mbar are becoming more and more vul.

Every passing episode

Jeff: Agreed.

Brent: not in a good way

Jeff: No, all the, like the enterprise Vulcan stuff really, right?

Brent: Mm-hmm. with as enlightened and evolved as they would like us to believe. You're going to approach people with open ports as is your custom. Cool. But you're gonna be surprised when people take that, take offense that, and fire on you. Really,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: really?

Jeff: And then launch a jihad.

Brent: yeah. To the point where you're going to just obl, oh, you killed our guys, so we're going to kill all of you. You did this thing. We're gonna kill all of you. Like, that is ridiculous. And, and earth, you're weak, you're small, you're brand new to the universe, you're this, but we're gonna just obliterate you and wipe you off the the universal. I, it's a loss of, it's a, the mbar got notched down a peg for me, maybe two pegs after this

Jeff: that. Yeah. Cause I think. Yeah, I agree. And I think two, with the Geometry of shadows piece. One, we wanted the techno majors back. I still want the techno majors back. They gave us a lot of cool stuff. This episode, if Arthur came back, okay,

Brent: I'd be mad if he comes back Mad.

Jeff: well, at this point, knowing what happened to McIntire, it'd be ridiculous if he came back.

But just if we carry through the theory that he was Arthur and he went off to do stuff and he came back, okay, whatever. I don't, yeah, I don't care. I. I will get on a soap box and yell for the techno majors to come back. I don't care if Arthur comes back. Also, the other stuff in this episode, maybe it's foreshadowing of some kind.

If it is, don't tell us. Um, but I can't see it at all. What, what it means.

Brent: Nope. Mm-hmm.

Jeff: but right now we don't have to foreshadow. Right now we get to call it exactly how it is because we are just like last season creating the absolute and definitive a hundred percent accurate definitive ranking of this season of Babylon five.

I'm not even gonna go through the top five. Brent, where do you rank a late delivery from Avalon

Brent: You know, what I really want to do is I want to make this like we did the, the long, dark last season where I was like, I'm just gonna put it at 22, even though we're only at like episode eight, and

it's just gonna stay all the way down there. I'm not gonna do that to this one, but this will go at the end.

This will go at the bottom, and I'll gladly watch it get pushed down further and further and further as the season goes.

Jeff: That's fair enough.

Brent: I think you don't disagree with me

Jeff: Yeah, if I did it wouldn't matter. But, um, the only disagreement I would do is I'd say just put it at 22 to save ourselves the time. But Brent, these are some words I know you've been waiting to hear for almost, uh, the better part of a week now. Uh, that's it for a late delivery from Avalon Next. We're gonna be watching the Ship of Tears for the first time.

Now, that's the first time Brent has heard that title. All we know are the titles of the next episode. We don't look at pictures, we don't look at synopsis, the little thumbnails or anything like that. And the fun game we love to play is guessing what the episode is gonna be about based on the title alone.

So Brent, what do you think Ship of Tears is gonna be?

Brent: I don't even want to guess, uh, this, that, that title sounds awful. That. I mean, seriously, we came out of, uh, we, we came out of severed dreams awesomeness to what? What, what have we had these last couple weeks? We've had? Um,

Jeff: Point of no return.

Brent: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Since Severed dreams.

Jeff: Seek.

Brent: Okay. That wasn't a bad episode. Not what I expected, but it wasn't a great episode.

Just not a great, not, not a bad episode. Ceremonies of light and dark. Which, I mean a late delivery like this feels like it's gonna be another heavy No, and I don't listen. Fuck I feel brick. Just what stuff? That's funny. No, that's not it. I just like, I can do heavy, make it matter. And this does not feel like anything that is gonna matter.

This feels like yet another. Something that is, uh, a ship of tears. Okay. This is a war ship. This is the ship that, it's the widow maker. It's the, that sort of a ship. It's the one that like kills everybody.

Jeff: The Menari one, right. That was the, it got blown up, but was the, I think it was called that, uh, back at the beginning of season

Brent: Yeah. It's gonna be something like that. And they're coming through and I, I don't even know what happens. I, Jeff, I'm not looking forward to this one next week either, man. Oh. I don't think it's gonna be good.

Jeff: I'm gonna make a huge prediction.

Brent: Don't, okay.

Jeff: I think. I think Yvanova's gonna die.

Brent: no, she's not

Jeff: and I think that she is expecting to go to Stoor, but she's gonna end up Inor instead. Oh, wait, that's barge of the, sorry,

Brent: I was like, only if she comes back, like is she gonna come back as like the three eyed raven in that dream? Where's that dream sequence, Ben? I want that dream sequence back.

You know that, that Sheridan meeting with the prophets here thing, man,

Jeff: Was that acts of, what was that one in? I remember the dream sequence.

Brent: I don't know.

Jeff: I forget which one, but yeah. Like what?

Brent: it was all

Jeff: Yeah, the raven, the crow and the, the dove. Okay. So here's my real prediction. I actually wrote this down cuz I, I, I think this is gonna be a thing.

Brent: See, that's what, that's what happens folks, when you actually. are the one who writes the notes and gets to see the thing you get to think about way beforehand. Go

Jeff: yes, I have a little more prep on mine. This is gonna pick up on the Babylon Treaty stuff and Babylon five's trying to de-legitimize itself more with the non-aligned worlds. And so I think that one of the immediate things that's gonna happen are refugees are gonna start pouring in from the non-aligned world.

So we're gonna start seeing more of the Pac Morra, we're gonna see more drowsy, we're gonna see more of these other aliens around in that, what we saw from the Nans, you know, when they. We're fleeing areas, but I think there's gonna be one ship, and I think it's gonna be a drowsy ship, just cuz we see the drowsy makeup quite a bit.

But the captain of the ship is gonna be an actor that has his SAG card so he can actually talk in the episode and he's gonna have like all these just beat up, you know, women and children and you know, poets and blah, blah, blah. And he's gonna become. Like the ship of tears, right? Like we have just, this is a, this is sad, this is sorrowful.

Maybe you don't have enough room, maybe you can't dock us. And he's gonna become like the spokesperson to actually start negotiating for peace. Like, I don't know what other non-aligned worlds they're

Brent: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: gonna be like, let's get in Babylon five and let's negotiate a treaty so my people can get taken care

Brent: Okay. See, that sounds like a heavy episode. I'm totally down for that episode. I have would have no problems with that. But again, you're moving again, you're moving the ball down the field, you know, uh, you're, you are adding to the story, not just spinning in circles, you know? And that's, that's what I want, Jeff.

That's what I want. I, I want the n just push the ball down the field. It could be a little, could be a lot, but like, like,

Jeff: I will just say this, like, careful what you wish for. Um, you know, when we had those three messages from Earth point of no return and severed dreams, like those were exciting, those were fun, but we had episodes over two hours long here on YouTube, , and, uh, because there's so much to dive into, I don't know that I want, like, this is what week 12.

So I don't necessarily know if I want 10 weeks of that. So, careful what you wish.

Brent: I will, I will take 10 weeks of that quality of.

Jeff: Wow.

Brent: Maybe not you, you, and you and I can get better on the length. Uh, but I want the show, like, that's the, I want the show to be that good. We've heard so much about how great this show is. To get a crappy episode like this one is, feels almost like a betrayal, to be honest with you.

Jeff: Wow. Well, we're gonna find out next week if the betrayal ends or if it continues. Thank you all so much for joining us for this epic episode of Babylon five for the first time. And an episode of Babylon five. Don't forget to subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to us. And if you haven't already, please leave us rating and a review so I can read it right here on the podcast.

So, Brent, until next time.

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. What's up?

Brent: Uh, can you see my little name tag right here in my window?

Jeff: I can

Brent: What's it say?

Jeff: do better.

Brent: That is not directed at you. That's directed to 30 years ago in the past that the people at at Babylon five do better. They need to do better.